Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[Top41]

It's been a while since I participated in this conversation so thought I'd rejoin the party!

Welcome back!

I've never really seen Flack not telling Danny that Lindsay was concerned as being terribly significant. I certainly don't think Lindsay should have used Flack as a go between in order to relay that message to Danny. Not that I'm saying she did that, but I do think by that time she had probably lost all ability to communicate directly with Danny on a personal level. Thinking about the whole Flack thing, I wonder if he just didn't want to get involved in anything other than supporting Danny. It's likely that Flack knew things were not great between him and Lindsay and it's also likely that he saw that as something they needed to sort out between them. Even relaying Lindsay's concern may have felt too involved for his liking. I also wonder if Flack saw how close Danny was getting to Rikki while trying to support her and could envisage the train wreck that was coming and wanted to keep his distance from that!

That's a fair point. I can see Flack leaving Danny's personal life for him to sort through. Flack seemed to make what happened in that episode about him and Danny and not anything external, which fair enough--Flack was the one who chased Danny all over town and risked his neck for Danny. Who Danny is sleeping with or doing whatever with is Danny's business, and Flack would respect that.

As for the whole timeline thing it's hard to say for certain that Danny and Lindsay were okay during any of the Ruben story arc. I really don't believe that the time in the morgue was the only time Lindsay reached out to him. The fact she turned to Mac for advice on what to say to Danny (bad move imo), then moved to leave in the direction that Danny went was a pretty strong indicator that she certainly intended to talk to him. It's very likely that if she did take Mac's advice and tell him that she wasn't very good at 'this sort of thing' then Danny may well have seen that as a brush off, particularly if that was her only attempt. I struggle to believe that Lindsay wouldn't have at least attempted to talk to Danny again, if she didn't there's little point to her conversation with Mac and her asking what to say to him.

I think she intended to, but I think Lindsay may have been putting it off. If she'd been hellbent on talking to Danny then, she wouldn't have stopped to talk to Mac. And as much as I think what they said to each other was honest, I think Lindsay kind of felt let off the hook a little bit. Mac isn't good at dealing with Danny either (he's better than he thinks he is, actually, and certainly better at it than Lindsay is), so Lindsay kind of found a kindred spirit on the issue in that moment.

But, I do think that any attempt on her part was minimal and likely to be clumsy e.g. 'I'm not very good at this sort of thing' which Danny may have interpreted as 'I'm not the best person to be there for you so get back to me when you've sorted it out'.

Yeah, I could see that if she did go and say that to him, he'd take it as a form of rejection or her saying, "I don't want to deal with you now. Take it to someone who can." Which isn't what she meant, but how insecure Danny would take it.

I honestly think Lindsay backed off from him because she genuinely believed he needed his space to deal with things. It seemed as though she really didn't know how to handle him which isn't a surprise as he's so unlike her with emotional fallout. While she clams up he bleeds all over the place. At the time I wondered if she had been so closed off that she just didn't know him that well, but now I think she did know him and that's what probably scared her - she knew she couldn't really deal with his raw emotion. She'd only seen it from a distance before e.g. RSRD and since then he'd been the strong one for her.

I can see that. She was giving him what she would have needed, not what he needed. But if she really knew him, she would know he needed the support and to talk about it--in which case she took the coward's way.

As for her birthday. It's pretty obvious that Danny forgot because of everything else that had been going on. It also supports the theory that they weren't spending much time together at that point. As for Lindsay being pissed that he forgot I always saw that as being so much bigger than a forgotten birthday. I suspect that Lindsay had seen it as a sign that his distance from her had grown from 'needing space' in her mind to suddenly being so far away that she had the first indicator that he may not return. I also think that's where the lunch invitation in RND was the final straw for her, where she felt she was putting herself on the line and he'd rejected her again.

Agreed... for Lindsay it was much more, a sign of how their relationship was devolving. Danny took it literally--she was mad he forgot her birthday. Good point about the lunch being the final rejection, though again, I can't help but come back to her needing to reach out to him in an apparent way--"I want to be there for you"--rather than going about it the way she did, in ways that could be misinterpreted.

I appreciate that tptb have indicated that they weren't an actual couple during the Ruben arc but that's never really been explained well enough for me not to see Danny's actions as a sort of betrayal. That's not to say I blame him for it because I don't. I understand that he was seeking and giving comfort and he'd not received any comfort from Lindsay. I just can't bring myself to blame Lindsay for that either. I really do see them as screwed up and damaged as each other, albeit in very different ways.

I do think Lindsay's inability to be there for him pushed him away, and I think it just highlights why they're not good for each other. Ultimately, their problems add up to bad communication, which they've never bridged, even now that they're married and have a child.

There's no doubt that their problems have been glossed over to bring family Messer to the fore in S5. That's probably the most frustrating thing of the season. But, I guess it does give tptb a lot of fodder to draw another wedge between them further down the line. I'm really hoping not, as I'd like to see them learning to communicate with each other better. One of the good things of S5 was that Lindsay seemed to be more understanding and accepting of Danny and his beliefs/faults. What I'd like to see now is a little more exploration into Lindsay's faults and Danny calling her out on them. We'll see.

I would very much like to see that as well!

Yeah, I remember her telling Flack that same thing about calling him, and he didn't pick up. It's true that offscreen assumptions are really tricky (it's impossible to therefore tell what really went on). But I don't know, I always assumed Danny knew about the covered shift because that was the only way I could explain his renewed friendliness with her in Playing With Matches (especially when coupled with her initial sullenness in that same episode).

Maybe, though I don't think Danny was ever unfriendly to her (except for when he confronted her in RND)--reserved maybe, but Danny is a pretty warm guy.

Very true - but even Danny demanded to know why she "needed" him to take the mother in Oedipus Hex, and like you said, he tends to be a doormat when it comes to Lindsay's random whims. I can believe Lindsay would've found it hard to bring up, but I still have to believe she at least asked why she had to do a double-shift for him.

Possibly, but she might have done it in a way that seemed confrontational, which would have led him to try to brush it off or diffuse the situation in one way or another. Unless she sat him down and said, "I need to know what's going on with you," which I think we can safely say she didn't, it seems to me that it's likely whatever conversation happened between them wasn't very meaningful or deep. They communicate very badly.

Well okay, but I thought that scene made it clear how Lindsay's irritation/anger was not about her birthday at all (the sad way she looked at him after he left?). I know she brought it up, but that whole birthday exchange really sounded like Lindsay was at least as unsurprised as I was about Danny missing her birthday. He was grieving, but I can't really see him remembering her birthday even if Ruben was still alive.

I do, however, think (agree, I guess) that Danny thought she was just mad about her birthday, and it honestly didn't occur to him that she might be mad about anything else - he basically said so in RND. Which, yeah, might explain why he skipped lunch. It's much of what drew me to the conclusion that he didn't take Lindsay seriously once she became his girlfriend, because he might have his reasons for thinking Lindsay was self-centered, but I really think he gave her more credit back in seasons 2 and 3.

He did give her more credit back in seasons two and three, but I can see why that kind of eroded during season four. Here he is in his time of need, and his girlfriend--who he was so supportive of and good to in season three before they were even dating--can't be bothered to return the favor. Danny probably did think less of her seeing her not reaching out to him. I think that's why part of the reason he did want to get back together with her, or at least be on good terms again--he realized she actually cared about him.

I saw concern, yeah, but I definitely saw tension too - it wasn't just the scene in the police station; if it had just been that, then I would've seen it as levelling, but he also seemed kind of hostile to Stella when he and Danny found her coming out of the Professor's house, which is why I drew the conclusion that he was still irritated over the Angell thing.

I didn't notice that--just intensity coming off of Flack. I might have to go back and re-watch that scene! I think he was also surprised to find her there.

 

[Maya316]

5. DOA For a Day Danny forgets Lindsay's birthday and she's pissed
4. Playing With Matches Danny and Lindsay seem okay, he's subdued but seems to enjoy the banter about steel balls. They are friendly but not romantic
1. Child's Play Ruben dies and Danny freaks
2. Happily Never After Danny seems lost in grief-no clips of Lindsay and him
3. All In the Family Rikki steals Danny's gun - Lindsay sends Flack after Danny
6. Right Next Door Danny and Rikki have sex and Lindsay blows up at Danny

Okay, dealing strictly with the emotional side of things, does this make more or less sense when thinking about the characters and emotions involved?

I'd love to know if anyone else thinks it could have been presented differently.

I honestly don't know whether D/L could've worked out had they re-arranged the presentation of their emotional issues...I don't know, I always thought it kind of made sense the way things were now. I mean, it's interesting how you rearranged Playing with Matches and DOA for a Day - Danny being fine bantering around with Lindsay, but forgetting her birthday in the very next episode - purely in terms of logic, it doesn't make sense, but in terms of their relationship as it appeared to be throughout S4, it seemed very consistent. He's always been fine bantering around with her, it's almost like he views that aspect of their relationship completely separate from the fact that they're in a (presumably) boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Getting into this...

The problem I have with that timeline is that it would make Danny forgetting Lindsay's birthday seem like a stereotypical bad/thoughtless boyfriend forgetting his girlfriend's birthday. In my mind, that's absolutely not what it was--it was Ruben's death that sparked Danny's drastic pulling away from Lindsay. Danny has been presented as anything but thoughtless, and I think the forgetting of the birthday had mostly to do with the fact that he just had much, much bigger things on his mind.

See, I still see Danny forgetting Lindsay's birthday as being very consistent with what their relationship seemed to be like in the beginning of S4, the little we saw of it. I'm willing to place bets that he forgot her birthday this year, in S5, too (although of course, we probably won't ever find out). Maybe he just shut down from the emotional aspect of his and Lindsay's relationship from the very beginning of season 4, maybe it was because he was shying from that emotional tie, but either way it just never once seemed like he was interested in that emotional aspect of their relationship. At least, not past "Snow Day", not until Lindsay started shutting him out in Personal Foul. Remembering a birthday

As for them being friendly but not romantic, I think that kind of yo-yoed during the season anyway. Mostly we saw her making overtures--the condom spray, the concern in "The Deep," the slingshot flirting--and him responding kind of shyly or brushing her off. For that, putting aside the Ruben stuff... given that Danny isn't a stereotypical guy, it's possible that he didn't want it being broadcast to everyone that he was sleeping with a co-worker. Tying everything back in to Mac, it's possible he thought Mac would disapprove or maybe that people would judge him/think he wasn't good enough for Lindsay. Again, this is Danny...his self-esteem is pretty low and he's definitely worried about what people think of him.

I'm not sure about Danny's earlier brush-offs being related to work. I can definitely see it in the condom spray thing (although what struck me a lot in that episode was how Danny rolled his eyes before shutting the laptop on Lindsay in the beginning - it just really seemed like he was impatient with her), but Lindsay's way of telling him she was worried in The Deep was (I thought) fairly appropriate for work. How hard would it have been to say even "Don't worry about it" when she was going on about watching and not being able to do anything? He managed that much for Hawkes, when Hawkes was saying thanks. And who, except for that museum guy, was watching in Commuted Sentences?

Another thought on Flack--maybe Flack didn't tell Lindsay about Danny's gun being stolen because he didn't want Danny to get in trouble with her over what happened. Maybe he thought they should sort things out themselves, so he didn't mention to her what happened with the gun and didn't tell Danny about her involvement, figuring they'd sort through things themselves later. Maybe Flack doesn't realize what big communication issues they have.

Yeah, I can see Flack deciding to just not get involved, although I think he would've had to tell her something. Just because I don't see Lindsay being worried, then suddenly okay with Danny and then Flack seemingly dropping off the face of the earth until she saw them on their next shift...so maybe if Flack didn't say anything, she would've gone directly to the source of her worry?

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake:
Yes, I can see that. But when they are talking about it, his comment of "I'm never going to live this one down am I", doesn't speak to him pulling away at that time. It says to me that he is still committed (somewhat) to her and it fits better with him saying that as a boyfriend/lover moreso than as a friend or colleague. In that episode and PWM, they don't seem to be ignoring an elephant in the room, which would be his involvement with Rikki. As emotional as he is during that arc, would he be able to pull off concealing an affair? I don't know...he seemed pretty guilty when he showed up at the lab in RND, but I could be projected because we saw what he was doing before he got there.

Hmmm...was he involved with Rikki that early? I guess that's possible too, though I really don't see him being able to hide it that long. The reason I'm pretty convinced Lindsay knew about the Rikki-affair is because she read it in his face when he was walking off the elevator (and then couldn't meet her eyes) in RND.

These two have always been able to turn it on and off like a faucet. Even when Lindsay was nickel-spitting mad at him, they still acted like things were normal most of the time, joking and working like nothing happened.

That's why looking at them in a relationship is just weird for me! Because Danny seems to have all the consideration in the world for Lindsay when he's just treating her as a friend, then seems to shut down entirely (to her) whenever something emotional/personal comes up in S4 - that's just not...I don't see how you just turn feelings on and off like that.

I agree that he did shut down when Ruben died. I really like the progression if you put CP, HNA, AITF and RND in quick succession because it shows him grieving, going after Rikki, seeing how lost she is, and then trying to substitute himself for her pain since he can't give Ruben back to her. That is so much more powerful for his character than having to deal with a forgotten birthday in the middle of it. The fact that he goes back to the birthday when Lindsay confronts him would have been a great indicator of exactly how much Ruben's death affected Danny and how much time he lost in his grief. It would also explain how he could sleep with Rikki and still talk with Lindsay on the phone like she and Rikki existed in different realms.

I think I definitely agree about Danny seeing Rikki and Lindsay as existing in different worlds. But I have to say, that's pretty much why I don't see his interactions with Lindsay being particularly affected by what he may or may not have been doing with Rikki. Because he was able to compartmentalize them, it wasn't like one of them got shafted for the other.

 

[JellyBelly]

Welcome back!

Thanks!

I can see Flack leaving Danny's personal life for him to sort through. Flack seemed to make what happened in that episode about him and Danny and not anything external, which fair enough--Flack was the one who chased Danny all over town and risked his neck for Danny. Who Danny is sleeping with or doing whatever with is Danny's business, and Flack would respect that.

He definitely would respect that. I've always had the vibe from Flack and Danny that they keep their friendship away from each other's romantic lives. Flack obviously didn't share the fact he had a girlfriend in S4 with Danny and Danny didn't seem to talk to Flack about Lindsay.

I think she intended to, but I think Lindsay may have been putting it off. If she'd been hellbent on talking to Danny then, she wouldn't have stopped to talk to Mac. And as much as I think what they said to each other was honest, I think Lindsay kind of felt let off the hook a little bit. Mac isn't good at dealing with Danny either (he's better than he thinks he is, actually, and certainly better at it than Lindsay is), so Lindsay kind of found a kindred spirit on the issue in that moment.

I think she stopped to talk to Mac partly because of her own inadequacies but partly because Danny brushed her concern off. He clearly couldn't talk at that moment and I suspect she took that literally rather than assuming the place was the wrong setting and following him out. I do think Lindsay would have fared better if she'd had the 'conversation' with someone like Stella.

I can see that. She was giving him what she would have needed, not what he needed. But if she really knew him, she would know he needed the support and to talk about it--in which case she took the coward's way.

And I think that's the crux of their s4 issues. Lindsay didn't really know him, I think she got carried away by his support of her and then couldn't really deal with his issues when they reared themselves. While I believe that she did genuinely fall in love with him, I'm not sure that she really knew him for that love to be necessarily sustainable. That's probably the main reason why I don't like that tptb brushed it all under the carpet and had them get married off the bat. There's a chance they can address their issues while being married but it would've felt much more genuine if they had been given the chance to do that first.

 

[Maya316]

Oh wow, I feel like I'm so behind!

Quote:
As for the whole timeline thing it's hard to say for certain that Danny and Lindsay were okay during any of the Ruben story arc. I really don't believe that the time in the morgue was the only time Lindsay reached out to him. The fact she turned to Mac for advice on what to say to Danny (bad move imo), then moved to leave in the direction that Danny went was a pretty strong indicator that she certainly intended to talk to him. It's very likely that if she did take Mac's advice and tell him that she wasn't very good at 'this sort of thing' then Danny may well have seen that as a brush off, particularly if that was her only attempt. I struggle to believe that Lindsay wouldn't have at least attempted to talk to Danny again, if she didn't there's little point to her conversation with Mac and her asking what to say to him.
I think she intended to, but I think Lindsay may have been putting it off. If she'd been hellbent on talking to Danny then, she wouldn't have stopped to talk to Mac. And as much as I think what they said to each other was honest, I think Lindsay kind of felt let off the hook a little bit. Mac isn't good at dealing with Danny either (he's better than he thinks he is, actually, and certainly better at it than Lindsay is), so Lindsay kind of found a kindred spirit on the issue in that moment.

I think that Mac might be better at dealing with Danny because Danny actually talks to Mac when he has a problem. I don't know if Mac was the one who found Danny in the morgue during Child's Play, but remembering things like Run Silent, Happily Never After, and Green Piece, sometimes it really seems like Mac just has to be there, and Danny trusts him. Which definitely plays into the whole father-figure bit, though I do agree that Mac is better at being there for Danny than Lindsay is.

Maybe, though I don't think Danny was ever unfriendly to her (except for when he confronted her in RND)--reserved maybe, but Danny is a pretty warm guy.

Oh, I don't think Danny was unfriendly-in-a-mean-way to her, either, but maybe reserved is the right word. PWM was, I think, the only time in S4 he seemed to try in a way reminiscent to the way he tried in season 2/3 - trying to make her laugh, being happy when she at least smiled, it was probably the most reciprocative he'd been to Lindsay's interest all season. So, it's weird it only happened after she did him a favour.

Possibly, but she might have done it in a way that seemed confrontational, which would have led him to try to brush it off or diffuse the situation in one way or another. Unless she sat him down and said, "I need to know what's going on with you," which I think we can safely say she didn't, it seems to me that it's likely whatever conversation happened between them wasn't very meaningful or deep. They communicate very badly.

Lol, yeah, I can't see it having been a meaningful conversation - I think that was at least part of the reason Lindsay was so initially sullen in PWM. I think she might've asked, and he (perceiving confrontation - maybe Lindsay gave off the confrontation vibe) fobbed her off. They really do communicate horribly, yeah.

He did give her more credit back in seasons two and three, but I can see why that kind of eroded during season four. Here he is in his time of need, and his girlfriend--who he was so supportive of and good to in season three before they were even dating--can't be bothered to return the favor. Danny probably did think less of her seeing her not reaching out to him. I think that's why part of the reason he did want to get back together with her, or at least be on good terms again--he realized she actually cared about him.

Even Lindsay, socially crippled as she is, was able to tell Danny what she needed from him in Season 3 - space. He didn't listen, and that was probably to her benefit, but she was still able to communicate what she needed. I'm really not buying that if Danny had just done the same, told her what he needed, Lindsay wouldn't have done it. He didn't say a word. I think I agree that, on some level, he blamed her for not reaching out to him, after all he'd done for her. I just don't think he has much of a high ground to make that judgement, given that he ran from/ignored/didn't bother to notice the times she did try for him. They really don't seem to know each other, not in any way that would matter for a relationship.

I didn't notice that--just intensity coming off of Flack. I might have to go back and re-watch that scene! I think he was also surprised to find her there.

Yeah, Flack was intense in that scene, and I'm sure surprise had at least a little to do with his sharpness. But Danny was surprised - and acted like it. Flack just seemed a little stand-offish, though Flack and Danny are really different, so maybe that doesn't say much!

ETA: Um, feel a little embarrassed, could someone show me how to do the double-quote thing properly? I keep messing them up...

 

[Top41]

See, I still see Danny forgetting Lindsay's birthday as being very consistent with what their relationship seemed to be like in the beginning of S4, the little we saw of it. I'm willing to place bets that he forgot her birthday this year, in S5, too (although of course, we probably won't ever find out). Maybe he just shut down from the emotional aspect of his and Lindsay's relationship from the very beginning of season 4, maybe it was because he was shying from that emotional tie, but either way it just never once seemed like he was interested in that emotional aspect of their relationship. At least, not past "Snow Day", not until Lindsay started shutting him out in Personal Foul. Remembering a birthday

I just don't see Danny being thoughtless in that way, but it is possible that he's a typical guy in that, since that's what he seemed to brush it off as.

I'm not sure about Danny's earlier brush-offs being related to work. I can definitely see it in the condom spray thing (although what struck me a lot in that episode was how Danny rolled his eyes before shutting the laptop on Lindsay in the beginning - it just really seemed like he was impatient with her), but Lindsay's way of telling him she was worried in The Deep was (I thought) fairly appropriate for work. How hard would it have been to say even "Don't worry about it" when she was going on about watching and not being able to do anything? He managed that much for Hawkes, when Hawkes was saying thanks. And who, except for that museum guy, was watching in Commuted Sentences?

Good points... I guess I fall back on him maybe just not liking her as much anymore. And fair enough--sometimes you get into a relationship with someone you think you really like and then discover that you don't like that person so much after you really get to know them in a relationship setting. That would kind of track, too, with the relationship totally cooling by the time Ruben died--maybe Danny was hoping she'd step up to the plate and really be there for him, and then when she didn't, he shut her out completely (aside from the friendly colleague stuff).

And that would track with him going back to her after she told him she loved him--Danny's so insecure that he thinks he'll never find that. So the fact that Lindsay does love him would make him cling to her, and maybe view her in a more positive light. She must be awesome if she can love a mess like him, right?

Yeah, I can see Flack deciding to just not get involved, although I think he would've had to tell her something. Just because I don't see Lindsay being worried, then suddenly okay with Danny and then Flack seemingly dropping off the face of the earth until she saw them on their next shift...so maybe if Flack didn't say anything, she would've gone directly to the source of her worry?

Yeah, I guess she'd have to know something. Maybe Flack did fill her in afterwards, and once again she waited for Danny to come to her rather than going to him.

Hmmm...was he involved with Rikki that early? I guess that's possible too, though I really don't see him being able to hide it that long. The reason I'm pretty convinced Lindsay knew about the Rikki-affair is because she read it in his face when he was walking off the elevator (and then couldn't meet her eyes) in RND.

See, that's a big leap to me. How would she make the leap from him being evasive with her, and possibly being weird because he knew she was mad about the lunch, to knowing he's been sleeping with another woman? I've never bought Danny's assumption that she knew about Rikki, though, and that's what's always made it harder for me to sympathize with her throughout the whole thing. I think if she knew about Rikki, she would have said something about that... and been more pissed at him than herself.

I think I definitely agree about Danny seeing Rikki and Lindsay as existing in different worlds. But I have to say, that's pretty much why I don't see his interactions with Lindsay being particularly affected by what he may or may not have been doing with Rikki. Because he was able to compartmentalize them, it wasn't like one of them got shafted for the other.

Exactly, and that's just kind of an off way of thinking to me. Another sign of Danny's damage in my book.

He definitely would respect that. I've always had the vibe from Flack and Danny that they keep their friendship away from each other's romantic lives. Flack obviously didn't share the fact he had a girlfriend in S4 with Danny and Danny didn't seem to talk to Flack about Lindsay.

They don't seem to double-date, that's for sure. I don't think they avoid the topic altogether, though--Danny joked about Flack's girlfriend in that season four episode, and Flack made the crack about Danny needing to piss Lindsay off more often.

I think she stopped to talk to Mac partly because of her own inadequacies but partly because Danny brushed her concern off. He clearly couldn't talk at that moment and I suspect she took that literally rather than assuming the place was the wrong setting and following him out. I do think Lindsay would have fared better if she'd had the 'conversation' with someone like Stella.

I do come back to Danny being on his way out...yeah, he didn't stop when she came in and called his name, but one look at him would have told her he was going off to break down. It probably wasn't the right time, but I don't think she ever went out of her way to find another right time. Not out of not caring, but out of not being able to put herself out in that way.

And I think that's the crux of their s4 issues. Lindsay didn't really know him, I think she got carried away by his support of her and then couldn't really deal with his issues when they reared themselves. While I believe that she did genuinely fall in love with him, I'm not sure that she really knew him for that love to be necessarily sustainable. That's probably the main reason why I don't like that tptb brushed it all under the carpet and had them get married off the bat. There's a chance they can address their issues while being married but it would've felt much more genuine if they had been given the chance to do that first.

Yeah, exactly. I've never been a fan of them as a couple, but if we'd seen their issues addressed and seen Lindsay make some advancements to be good for Danny in the way he did for her, I'd have been more on board with it. Instead, we've only seen Danny making changes and compromises. That speech he gave her at the courthouse wasn't romantic at all--it was just sad. He was saying he could be what she wanted him to be, which came from a place of insecurity and need.

I think that Mac might be better at dealing with Danny because Danny actually talks to Mac when he has a problem. I don't know if Mac was the one who found Danny in the morgue during Child's Play, but remembering things like Run Silent, Happily Never After, and Green Piece, sometimes it really seems like Mac just has to be there, and Danny trusts him. Which definitely plays into the whole father-figure bit, though I do agree that Mac is better at being there for Danny than Lindsay is.

Mac is there a lot of the time, but he also makes the effort, even though he isn't very good at it. I remember how he came to the hospital at the end of RSRD to check on Danny, and how he held Danny while he cried. Probably not an easy thing for Mac to do, but he made the effort. And Lindsay can't? She needs to.

Oh, I don't think Danny was unfriendly-in-a-mean-way to her, either, but maybe reserved is the right word. PWM was, I think, the only time in S4 he seemed to try in a way reminiscent to the way he tried in season 2/3 - trying to make her laugh, being happy when she at least smiled, it was probably the most reciprocative he'd been to Lindsay's interest all season. So, it's weird it only happened after she did him a favour.

I guess I didn't pick up on that all that much in that episode (another one I need to see again!). What I did notice was that it was just business as usual between them in a colleagues sense--just totally weirdly back to normal after what happened in the previous episode. I chalked it up to bad continuity more than anything else.

Lol, yeah, I can't see it having been a meaningful conversation - I think that was at least part of the reason Lindsay was so initially sullen in PWM. I think she might've asked, and he (perceiving confrontation - maybe Lindsay gave off the confrontation vibe) fobbed her off. They really do communicate horribly, yeah.

Yeah, that's their biggest problem as a couple. They just don't talk to each other--we saw that even in season five, after Danny chased the suspect and lied to Lindsay about everything being fine, and even in the hospital when they both confided their fears in other people. They just don't talk to each other, and I can't see how they can have a relationship when they don't do that. The only time I can recall them having an honest-to-goodness conversation about their relationship was in "The Triangle."

Even Lindsay, socially crippled as she is, was able to tell Danny what she needed from him in Season 3 - space. He didn't listen, and that was probably to her benefit, but she was still able to communicate what she needed. I'm really not buying that if Danny had just done the same, told her what he needed, Lindsay wouldn't have done it. He didn't say a word. I think I agree that, on some level, he blamed her for not reaching out to him, after all he'd done for her. I just don't think he has much of a high ground to make that judgement, given that he ran from/ignored/didn't bother to notice the times she did try for him. They really don't seem to know each other, not in any way that would matter for a relationship.

Lindsay told Danny what she needed because he asked her. He went to her, over and over, to see what she needed and finally after being goaded, she told him. Had Lindsay gone to Danny, he might have told her what he needed. Danny is a talker--I find it hard to believe if she'd reached out to him and pressed him a little, that he wouldn't have opened up to her. I think he's not capable of not doing that, really--Danny's like an open wound. She just didn't make the effort to do that. I can see how he wouldn't go to her, sit her down and say, "This is what I need." That's not his responsibility, any more than it would have been for her to preemptively walk up to him in season three and say she was dealing with something and needed space. Once she showed him she cared, then yeah, it would have been on him to open up. But not before.

Yeah, Flack was intense in that scene, and I'm sure surprise had at least a little to do with his sharpness. But Danny was surprised - and acted like it. Flack just seemed a little stand-offish, though Flack and Danny are really different, so maybe that doesn't say much!

I kind of chalked it up to him being worried for her. It was less intense than when he found Danny in danger in "All in the Family"--I thought he was going to blow a gasket then!--but kind of along the same lines. Stella is his friend, he cares about her, and isn't thrilled to see her at the apartment of a guy they're going to question about a murder.

ETA: Um, feel a little embarrassed, could someone show me how to do the double-quote thing properly? I keep messing them up...

Don't be embarrassed--it can be tricky! It's all about making sure the quote boxes are all there. Example below (with spaces in between the brackets and the word quote, so the system doesn't actually do the coding):

[ quote ]Top41 says:
[ quote ]Jellybelly says:
[ quote ]Maya316 says:
Danny is one messed up mo-fo![ /quote ]

I'll say! [ /quote ]

He really is! [ /quote ]

So just make sure all the quote tags are there around the individual comments. You have to add them in yourself, which is kind of a pain.

Without the spaces, here's what it looks like...

Top41 says:

Jellybelly says:

Maya316 says:
Danny is one messed up mo-fo!

I'll say!

He really is!

 

[Maya316]

Good points... I guess I fall back on him maybe just not liking her as much anymore. And fair enough--sometimes you get into a relationship with someone you think you really like and then discover that you don't like that person so much after you really get to know them in a relationship setting. That would kind of track, too, with the relationship totally cooling by the time Ruben died--maybe Danny was hoping she'd step up to the plate and really be there for him, and then when she didn't, he shut her out completely (aside from the friendly colleague stuff).

Yeah...that's kind of been my default-fallback to explaining the season-4 edition of D/L too. It's just one of my many irritations with this pairing, though. They never seem to be on an even footing, even with regards to how much they like (or don't like) each other - it's always she's suddenly more interested than he, then he's suddenly more interested than her, then she's suddenly interested while he's not so much, then when she gets less interested he's suddenly all interested, and then when she gets back interested... I just want to scream "shut up, call off the whole thing already and stop wasting so much screentime!" :shifty:

And that would track with him going back to her after she told him she loved him--Danny's so insecure that he thinks he'll never find that. So the fact that Lindsay does love him would make him cling to her, and maybe view her in a more positive light. She must be awesome if she can love a mess like him, right?

Given Danny's insecurities, I guess I can see how Lindsay's being in love with him would suddenly make her more appealing to him...which is sad, but yeah, I can see this. I'm not sure how much his renewed efforts after RND came from this, though, and not from the fact that she was just suddenly out of his reach. I mean, as of mid-RND he knew she was in love with him. But the efforts to get back together only came in PF, after she'd blown him off a couple of times. (Sorry, I'm kind of discounting LWFM because that episode just makes more sense if he was only interested in being a friend with the movie-renting thing.)

Yeah, I guess she'd have to know something. Maybe Flack did fill her in afterwards, and once again she waited for Danny to come to her rather than going to him.

Hmm, yeah I can also see things having played out that way. Especially about the Lindsay waiting for Danny to come to her.

See, that's a big leap to me. How would she make the leap from him being evasive with her, and possibly being weird because he knew she was mad about the lunch, to knowing he's been sleeping with another woman? I've never bought Danny's assumption that she knew about Rikki, though, and that's what's always made it harder for me to sympathize with her throughout the whole thing. I think if she knew about Rikki, she would have said something about that... and been more pissed at him than herself.

It is a big-leap-conclusion, yeah. I guess the reason I've always made it is because - with the extremely limited information we usually get about the characters' personal lives on CSI shows - I can't really see the writers throwing around misleading, if vague hints about said personal information. It's kind of why I draw my conclusion of Danny being a somewhat-lax boyfriend in general because of the Jamalot phone-call, the flippancy-about-the-bar-mitzvah thing, and the new-hook-up in Risk - these things are ambiguous enough to not really say anything, but we get so little information about Danny's personal life as it is, why mislead us? With the Lindsay-Danny-Rikki deal, there was Lindsay's "jealousy" comment during her spiel, and Danny's seeming-conviction that she knew about the affair; I've always taken it as a given that Lindsay knew something about the drama in All in the Family (which necessitates her knowing about Rikki's involvement), and let's face it, Danny wasn't exactly smooth-talking when he was blowing her off for lunch. It's all pretty ambiguous - Lindsay may actually not know squat, and never will until/unless the affair comes up. But I just don't see the point of the writers using what little they gave us to hint that Lindsay knows, when she actually doesn't. I know they do it in shows like Grey's Anatomy, but I'm so unsure on how procedural shows handle this kind of drama.

Exactly, and that's just kind of an off way of thinking to me. Another sign of Danny's damage in my book.

So true, because it always baffles me how Danny was able to separate the two events/people so completely. So I can definitely see it as damage. Strangely, it seems to come from the same thing that allows Danny to separate Lindsay-girlfriend from Lindsay-friend-and-coworker (something else that baffles me).

Yeah, exactly. I've never been a fan of them as a couple, but if we'd seen their issues addressed and seen Lindsay make some advancements to be good for Danny in the way he did for her, I'd have been more on board with it. Instead, we've only seen Danny making changes and compromises. That speech he gave her at the courthouse wasn't romantic at all--it was just sad. He was saying he could be what she wanted him to be, which came from a place of insecurity and need

Thank you! Yes, I definitely agree with this (and I hated that speech too, btw)! Easily the best D/L scene ever, imo, was the break-up in Right Next Door, because the writers at least were addressing their issues, even if the characters weren't so much. I could totally get behind seeing Lindsay make some kind of change, though I think change could be made on both sides - I don't know how much Danny's changes and compromises have to do with Lindsay as much as Lucy. I think they have way more to do with the baby. I'm still crossing my fingers for some sort of break-up in Season 6, having to do with these issues. But if they could address and work through said issues without breaking up...I'm iffy, but I think I could get behind seeing that, too. If it were done really, really well.

Mac is there a lot of the time, but he also makes the effort, even though he isn't very good at it. I remember how he came to the hospital at the end of RSRD to check on Danny, and how he held Danny while he cried. Probably not an easy thing for Mac to do, but he made the effort. And Lindsay can't? She needs to.

True...I really would like to see Lindsay make that effort, because Mac seems to - and while I don't think he's as damaged as her (since he at least has a healthy relationship with Stella), it can't be that much easier for him.

Yeah, that's their biggest problem as a couple. They just don't talk to each other--we saw that even in season five, after Danny chased the suspect and lied to Lindsay about everything being fine, and even in the hospital when they both confided their fears in other people. They just don't talk to each other, and I can't see how they can have a relationship when they don't do that. The only time I can recall them having an honest-to-goodness conversation about their relationship was in "The Triangle."

Hmm...they came close in the Triangle, yeah, but I don't know how much of that was addressing issues, as opposed to Lindsay soothing his fears that he had to marry her to stop her running off with his baby (which he then chose to ignore, apparently, in Green Piece). But they definitely need to talk more. Lindsay, definitely, has to stop waiting for Danny to take the lead, because...well, he won't. (That thing with the shootout in Point of No Return is partly why I find it easy to believe Lindsay asked about why he skipped work in All in the Family, and Danny just didn't tell her.).

Sorry, my computer's about to log-off, so I'll be back to add to/edit this in like, 50 seconds

 

[meggzie]

Hey want to post on this thread a bit more but my computer is being annoying:scream: will try to come back later

 

[Top41]

Yeah...that's kind of been my default-fallback to explaining the season-4 edition of D/L too. It's just one of my many irritations with this pairing, though. They never seem to be on an even footing, even with regards to how much they like (or don't like) each other - it's always she's suddenly more interested than he, then he's suddenly more interested than her, then she's suddenly interested while he's not so much, then when she gets less interested he's suddenly all interested, and then when she gets back interested... I just want to scream "shut up, call off the whole thing already and stop wasting so much screentime!" :shifty:

The back and forth is definitely annoying! They're never on the same page, yet another reason they don't work as a couple. They're married now, but there still totally seems to be a distance between them. They never seem natural as a couple.

Given Danny's insecurities, I guess I can see how Lindsay's being in love with him would suddenly make her more appealing to him...which is sad, but yeah, I can see this. I'm not sure how much his renewed efforts after RND came from this, though, and not from the fact that she was just suddenly out of his reach. I mean, as of mid-RND he knew she was in love with him. But the efforts to get back together only came in PF, after she'd blown him off a couple of times. (Sorry, I'm kind of discounting LWFM because that episode just makes more sense if he was only interested in being a friend with the movie-renting thing.)

I guess it could be that--he had the same pattern with Mac back in season one. The more Mac got upset with him, the harder he tried to please Mac. Again, I think it's a sign of some abuse in Danny's past, or some mentality that's not healthy--the more people push him away or disapprove of him, the more desperate he is to win that approval. It's just kind of sad.

It is a big-leap-conclusion, yeah. I guess the reason I've always made it is because - with the extremely limited information we usually get about the characters' personal lives on CSI shows - I can't really see the writers throwing around misleading, if vague hints about said personal information. It's kind of why I draw my conclusion of Danny being a somewhat-lax boyfriend in general because of the Jamalot phone-call, the flippancy-about-the-bar-mitzvah thing, and the new-hook-up in Risk - these things are ambiguous enough to not really say anything, but we get so little information about Danny's personal life as it is, why mislead us?

I guess those things told me something different--that Danny is used to being pursued in a relationship, that he's often in a relationship and perhaps afraid of being alone. Specifically... the bar mitzvah thing thing tells me he's not much of a party guy, and he's grumbling about it, but he's still going to go because he likes the girl. I admit I dismiss the ringtone thing as an advertisement--there was promotion about Coldplay's new single being released on the show. The train girl thing tells me he's shy and responds to women's interest in him--similarly to how he responded to Lindsay's interest in him. In fact, it was just after that episode that Lindsay's interest really started to show through, in "Stuck on You" and "Cool Hunter."

With the Lindsay-Danny-Rikki deal, there was Lindsay's "jealousy" comment during her spiel, and Danny's seeming-conviction that she knew about the affair; I've always taken it as a given that Lindsay knew something about the drama in All in the Family (which necessitates her knowing about Rikki's involvement), and let's face it, Danny wasn't exactly smooth-talking when he was blowing her off for lunch. It's all pretty ambiguous - Lindsay may actually not know squat, and never will until/unless the affair comes up. But I just don't see the point of the writers using what little they gave us to hint that Lindsay knows, when she actually doesn't. I would, if this were Grey's Anatomy or something, but I'm unsure on how procedural shows handle this kind of drama.

I guess I took the jealousy comment more vaguely...that she might have been jealous that he was confiding in other people or that she was just jealous in general because he was blowing her off and not spending time with her (and perhaps choosing others over her). It's vague, though, so I can definitely see the other interpretation--that she did suspect about Rikki. I just wish it had been a lot less vague. And I keep coming back to if she did know about Rikki, why wasn't she more mad?

So true, because it always baffles me how Danny was able to separate the two events/people so completely. So I can definitely see it as damage. Strangely, it seems to come from the same thing that allows Danny to separate Lindsay-girlfriend from Lindsay-friend-and-coworker (something else that baffles me).

I wonder if it's some sort of dissociation associated with abuse. If Danny was abused by someone he trusted, it's possible in his mind he separated the personality he trusted/loved from the one that abused him. Presumably that person did treat him well sometimes, at the very least in public. So, with his dad as an example...maybe he just separated the dad who was affectionate from the dad who beat him, until in his mind it was almost like his dad was two different people. Or if it was an uncle molesting him--it he separated the uncle who was friendly and warm at family gatherings with the guy who went into his room at night.

Thank you! Yes, I definitely agree with this (and I hated that speech too, btw)! Easily the best D/L scene ever, imo, was the break-up in Right Next Door, because the writers at least were addressing their issues, even if the characters weren't so much.

I would have liked it more if it hadn't been so one-sided. Lindsay got to have her say, but Danny never got to have his. That's always bothered me, but it's in character. When someone lays into Danny, he just shuts down rather than fighting back.

I could totally get behind seeing Lindsay make some kind of change, though I think change could be made on both sides - I don't know how much Danny's changes and compromises have to do with Lindsay as much as Lucy. I think they have way more to do with the baby.

I think they have to do with the baby, but Lindsay was the one he said he'd change for. Even if he's just trying to placate her so they can have the happy family he's always wanted, he's trying to be what she wants him to be.

I'm still crossing my fingers for some sort of break-up in Season 6, having to do with these issues. But if they could address and work through said issues without breaking up...I'm iffy, but I think I could get behind seeing that, too. If it were done really, really well.

Only if it's not more back and forth. I don't want a season of Lindsay leaving him and Danny having to grovel to get her back. It might be nice to see the other way around for once--to see Lindsay really fight for Danny.

 

[Maya316]

The back and forth is definitely annoying! They're never on the same page, yet another reason they don't work as a couple. They're married now, but there still totally seems to be a distance between them. They never seem natural as a couple.

Exactly! I feel like my brain implodes every time I try to understand how they could not have figured this out for themselves after four years of this. They're never on the same page with anything, not even with how much they like each other. And the really irritating thing is, I don't think I'd be as irritated with the back-and-forth-ing if it didn't completely cripple a) their ability to act like normal people with each other and with other people in general, and b) their ability to choose common sense over self-destruction.
I mean, I was fine with the Rachel/Ross back-and-forthing on Friends, mostly because Rachel and Ross didn't seem as determined to step all over themselves and each other when they were on the outs, or even when they weren't.

I guess it could be that--he had the same pattern with Mac back in season one. The more Mac got upset with him, the harder he tried to please Mac. Again, I think it's a sign of some abuse in Danny's past, or some mentality that's not healthy--the more people push him away or disapprove of him, the more desperate he is to win that approval. It's just kind of sad.

It is sad....and I agree it has to come from some sort of abuse in his past. Mental, maybe physical - though I'm less sure of the physical aspect, since he doesn't seem to have any flinching-problems [like Adam], or problems with touching or being touched. I guess I just wish that, whatever it is, he'd find out about it fast and get it fixed. Because I think it's far more troubling in a D/L context. I mean, pleasing Mac - he takes it to an unhealthy, I-will-do-this-no-matter-what-it-takes-or-die-trying extent. I think part of the reason he chased Little Stevie without a vest in Point of No Return was because he didn't want to let Mac down, or seem irresponsible/useless (because he forgot his vest), even though Mac specifically told him to stay in the car. But no one's getting hurt there, because it's just pleasing your boss - not Mac, not even Danny really. But he takes the whole pleasing thing to the same unhealthy extent with Lindsay, and I think it's fairly obvious that everyone involved, including Lucy now, is getting hurt there. And it's not by choice, for at least one of them, maybe two (I totally think Lindsay would be the one to let go, if she wasn't weak herself when it came to him.)

I guess those things told me something different--that Danny is used to being pursued in a relationship, that he's often in a relationship and perhaps afraid of being alone. Specifically... the bar mitzvah thing thing tells me he's not much of a party guy, and he's grumbling about it, but he's still going to go because he likes the girl. I admit I dismiss the ringtone thing as an advertisement--there was promotion about Coldplay's new single being released on the show. The train girl thing tells me he's shy and responds to women's interest in him--similarly to how he responded to Lindsay's interest in him. In fact, it was just after that episode that Lindsay's interest really started to show through, in "Stuck on You" and "Cool Hunter."

I don't know, I think it might also be a tendency I have to just take things in a general, wider context. Like, with the (comparatively) little bit we've been given on Danny and Louie's relationship, I'd assume that Danny is the one who has to look out for Louie on slightly-superficial things (money) and was irritated about it, but that he really looked up to him as kids anyway, and knew perfectly well that Louie was the protective one when it came to the big issues. Not once did he seem surprised when it turned out Louie bailed him out of trouble in Run Silent - he just seemed sad.

On the response to interest, though...I don't know, I'd half-assume that Lindsay's interest had to have been showing long before Stuck on You and Cool Hunter, if he was responding to it. He seemed fairly interested in City of the Dolls (asked her to go to lunch) and again in Risk.

I guess I took the jealousy comment more vaguely...that she might have been jealous that he was confiding in other people or that she was just jealous in general because he was blowing her off and not spending time with her (and perhaps choosing others over her). It's vague, though, so I can definitely see the other interpretation--that she did suspect about Rikki. I just wish it had been a lot less vague. And I keep coming back to if she did know about Rikki, why wasn't she more mad?

It's true - I wish that, since the writers are giving us next to nothing about these characters' personal lives, they'd at least make what they give us explicit, rather than just hint at it. But with the "so over" waves Danny was radiating, I always figured that Lindsay just didn't bring up Rikki directly because that would've been even more embarrassing than the love slip - even when she (maybe) brought Rikki up vaguely, she was doing it to tell Danny not to mistake her anger for just jealousy. He clearly didn't think she had any claim on him at that point, or if he did, that it was a very superficial one. There was not much way to bring Rikki up without looking like the clingy girlfriend.

I wonder if it's some sort of dissociation associated with abuse. If Danny was abused by someone he trusted, it's possible in his mind he separated the personality he trusted/loved from the one that abused him. Presumably that person did treat him well sometimes, at the very least in public. So, with his dad as an example...maybe he just separated the dad who was affectionate from the dad who beat him, until in his mind it was almost like his dad was two different people. Or if it was an uncle molesting him--it he separated the uncle who was friendly and warm at family gatherings with the guy who went into his room at night.

I could see that, given that the few times he's reminiscing about his past (the pier diving with Louie in The Deep, the memory of the gypsy-cab in Dove Commission), his memories seem for the most part fond, or at least indignant on his family's behalf. Yet it's so obvious that something happened there, and he just never seems to think about it, but it shows.

But applying this to the way he seems to dissociate Lindsay is a little confusing. The Lindsay-friend-and-coworker is presumably the Lindsay he trusts, since he gets along great with her all the time. That would mean the Lindsay-girlfriend is the one who he saw as able to abuse him (since that's the one he pulls away from)...but he only ever pulls away from that one when she's showing him she cares. I could see how he'd think shemight later abuse him, only the times when she is actually doing something that could (in some ways) be seen as abuse - blowing him off, pushing him away - are the times he seems most drawn to her. :wtf: Gah.

Maybe, the times when she's seemingly-abusing him are the times he's most determined to fix things, but then when things are actually fixed he's scared that she'll abuse him again, so he pulls away? Huh, but that kind of leaves Lindsay in a catch-22.

I would have liked it more if it hadn't been so one-sided. Lindsay got to have her say, but Danny never got to have his. That's always bothered me, but it's in character. When someone lays into Danny, he just shuts down rather than fighting back.

True, it would've been loads better if Danny had said something back. I sort-of thought he had his say later in the episode, when he said "I'm sorry" (I was taking it to mean "I'm sorry I can't feel the same way about you" - which he really didn't, still doesn't.). Of course, this was shortly re-routed by later episodes, so ....

I think they have to do with the baby, but Lindsay was the one he said he'd change for. Even if he's just trying to placate her so they can have the happy family he's always wanted, he's trying to be what she wants him to be.

But honestly, I don't think Lindsay wants him to be anything other than in love with her. (Which, yeah, is basically what he was promising in that speech, but he was so not telling the truth, so I can't really see it as a compromise or a change.)

I mean, good and responsible father, less prone to reckless action - maybe she might just want these out of common sense, but she's never really indicated that; and additionally I think a large part of what attracts Lindsay seems to be Danny's recklessness.

Only if it's not more back and forth. I don't want a season of Lindsay leaving him and Danny having to grovel to get her back. It might be nice to see the other way around for once--to see Lindsay really fight for Danny.

Oh yeah, definitely not with the back-and-forth. I'd be okay with Lindsay leaving him, but not with Danny grovelling, or trying to get her back. This is what's been compounding the problem for the past three years, and I'm just ready to drop-kick them both at this point. My ideal wish would be for Danny to sort out his issues at least enough to decide that he doesn't want/need Lindsay back - because he really doesn't: he barely seems to like her when they're together as a couple, and it's all but wrecking their friendship. And then (if they absolutely must stick with D/L), for Lindsay to fight for him, give him a reason to even want her back. I guess I'd be interested to see if Danny would still be attracted without his issues. And if he's not, they both move on.

 

[Top41]

Exactly! I feel like my brain implodes every time I try to understand how they could not have figured this out for themselves after four years of this. They're never on the same page with anything, not even with how much they like each other. And the really irritating thing is, I don't think I'd be as irritated with the back-and-forth-ing if it didn't completely cripple a) their ability to act like normal people with each other and with other people in general, and b) their ability to choose common sense over self-destruction.
I mean, I was fine with the Rachel/Ross back-and-forthing on Friends, mostly because Rachel and Ross didn't seem as determined to step all over themselves and each other when they were on the outs, or even when they weren't.

I didn't mind Ross and Rachel either, in part because I felt they had actual chemistry and in part because what happened with them more or less seemed natural. The issues they faced were organic, rather than coming out of left field. Danny and Lindsay just don't seem to connect, ever.

It is sad....and I agree it has to come from some sort of abuse in his past. Mental, maybe physical - though I'm less sure of the physical aspect, since he doesn't seem to have any flinching-problems [like Adam], or problems with touching or being touched.

I noticed him recoil/flinch when Mac got really angry at him in "Crime & Misdemeanor." It was just a little thing, though, but telling in my book. Danny isn't quite the type to flinch, though. For me it was telling in "Snow Day" that even after Adam had made it to safety (and Danny could see that he had--he was facing Adam), Danny continued to taunt their captors, knowing they'd kick his ass. Why? That always made me wonder. On some fundamental level, Danny really invites abuse.

I guess I just wish that, whatever it is, he'd find out about it fast and get it fixed. Because I think it's far more troubling in a D/L context. I mean, pleasing Mac - he takes it to an unhealthy, I-will-do-this-no-matter-what-it-takes-or-die-trying extent. I think part of the reason he chased Little Stevie without a vest in Point of No Return was because he didn't want to let Mac down, or seem irresponsible/useless (because he forgot his vest), even though Mac specifically told him to stay in the car. But no one's getting hurt there, because it's just pleasing your boss - not Mac, not even Danny really.

I don't know if I agree with that. Danny seems to seek some sort of deep affirmation and approval from Mac, so when he doesn't get that, he really seems hurt. And going to the lengths of chasing a suspect without a vest just to please his boss could get him killed.

But he takes the whole pleasing thing to the same unhealthy extent with Lindsay, and I think it's fairly obvious that everyone involved, including Lucy now, is getting hurt there. And it's not by choice, for at least one of them, maybe two (I totally think Lindsay would be the one to let go, if she wasn't weak herself when it came to him.)

Maybe, though again, Lindsay is perfectly content to take from him so long as he gives her what she wants. And Danny will just keep going out of his way to please her until she stops him and tells him she cares about what he wants, too. Because no one ever really says that to Danny, and I don't think Danny thinks about or even really knows what he wants for himself. Lucy is probably the first thing he's really wanted for himself on his own, without outside prompting.

I don't know, I think it might also be a tendency I have to just take things in a general, wider context. Like, with the (comparatively) little bit we've been given on Danny and Louie's relationship, I'd assume that Danny is the one who has to look out for Louie on slightly-superficial things (money) and was irritated about it, but that he really looked up to him as kids anyway, and knew perfectly well that Louie was the protective one when it came to the big issues. Not once did he seem surprised when it turned out Louie bailed him out of trouble in Run Silent - he just seemed sad.

Sure, though I don't think Danny had to look out for Louie until they were both adults. I think Louie protected Danny in the way older brothers protect younger ones.

On the response to interest, though...I don't know, I'd half-assume that Lindsay's interest had to have been showing long before Stuck on You and Cool Hunter, if he was responding to it. He seemed fairly interested in City of the Dolls (asked her to go to lunch) and again in Risk.

I think the "City of the Dolls" thing was the first instance of him really thawing to her and seeing her not just as Aiden's replacement. I also think he was responding to her interest there--he took her hand to show her something and she kind of held on/looked into his eyes. They both pulled away and he just fell back on a default response for when he picks up on someone's interest. As for "Risk," given that he approached the girl on the train after telling Lindsay she looked nice, I didn't take that bit too seriously, though it does show he's attracted to her as well.

It's true - I wish that, since the writers are giving us next to nothing about these characters' personal lives, they'd at least make what they give us explicit, rather than just hint at it. But with the "so over" waves Danny was radiating, I always figured that Lindsay just didn't bring up Rikki directly because that would've been even more embarrassing than the love slip - even when she (maybe) brought Rikki up vaguely, she was doing it to tell Danny not to mistake her anger for just jealousy. He clearly didn't think she had any claim on him at that point, or if he did, that it was a very superficial one. There was not much way to bring Rikki up without looking like the clingy girlfriend.

Hmmmm... I never really thought of it that way. Though that would put them as a lot less committed than I assumed they were in season four. It was so ill-defined... I think that's a lot of the problem here.

I could see that, given that the few times he's reminiscing about his past (the pier diving with Louie in The Deep, the memory of the gypsy-cab in Dove Commission), his memories seem for the most part fond, or at least indignant on his family's behalf. Yet it's so obvious that something happened there, and he just never seems to think about it, but it shows.

Yeah, and who knows who did it to him? It could be a relative we haven't heard about yet, or someone else Danny trusted.

But applying this to the way he seems to dissociate Lindsay is a little confusing. The Lindsay-friend-and-coworker is presumably the Lindsay he trusts, since he gets along great with her all the time. That would mean the Lindsay-girlfriend is the one who he saw as able to abuse him (since that's the one he pulls away from)...but he only ever pulls away from that one when she's showing him she cares. I could see how he'd think shemight later abuse him, only the times when she is actually doing something that could (in some ways) be seen as abuse - blowing him off, pushing him away - are the times he seems most drawn to her. :wtf: Gah.

Yes and no. The abuse is what Danny's used to--it might be cruel and terrible, but it's familiar and he knows what to expect. But when she's nice to him and treats him well, that's going to be when he's most ill at ease, because he doesn't know when that's going to change and she's going to turn on him. It's that change that would be the scariest to him and perhaps why he seemed so ill at ease with her being nice and warm to him. Why get used to it and enjoy it when she's just going to turn on him? Of course, he becomes his own self-fulfilling prophecy by not opening himself up to the good aspects of their relationship, but that's the tragedy of Danny Messer.

To be fair, I think Danny went in to trying to connect with her with only the best of intentions. It's when she started to mistreat him in season three that it fell into a pattern he was familiar with.

Maybe, the times when she's seemingly-abusing him are the times he's most determined to fix things, but then when things are actually fixed he's scared that she'll abuse him again, so he pulls away? Huh, but that kind of leaves Lindsay in a catch-22.

She needs to show him she's not going to turn on him the minute things get a little rocky, and then get him into therapy. And get herself into therapy, too. :lol:

True, it would've been loads better if Danny had said something back. I sort-of thought he had his say later in the episode, when he said "I'm sorry" (I was taking it to mean "I'm sorry I can't feel the same way about you" - which he really didn't, still doesn't.). Of course, this was shortly re-routed by later episodes, so ....

Wasn't her monologue close to the end of the episode? Again, I haven't seen it since last year, but I remember it being in Act 3 or 4, and there not really being another scene between them afterwards.

But honestly, I don't think Lindsay wants him to be anything other than in love with her. (Which, yeah, is basically what he was promising in that speech, but he was so not telling the truth, so I can't really see it as a compromise or a change.)

I think she wants him to fit into the good, devoted boyfriend/husband role she slotted him for.

I mean, good and responsible father, less prone to reckless action - maybe she might just want these out of common sense, but she's never really indicated that; and additionally I think a large part of what attracts Lindsay seems to be Danny's recklessness.

She's attracted to his "otherness"--the fact that he's so different from her. I think that's what attracts a lot of people to Danny--Mac, Flack, even Stella to some extent. He's passionate and vulnerable, whereas they're much more in control.

Oh yeah, definitely not with the back-and-forth. I'd be okay with Lindsay leaving him, but not with Danny grovelling, or trying to get her back. This is what's been compounding the problem for the past three years, and I'm just ready to drop-kick them both at this point. My ideal wish would be for Danny to sort out his issues at least enough to decide that he doesn't want/need Lindsay back - because he really doesn't: he barely seems to like her when they're together as a couple, and it's all but wrecking their friendship. And then (if they absolutely must stick with D/L), for Lindsay to fight for him, give him a reason to even want her back. I guess I'd be interested to see if Danny would still be attracted without his issues. And if he's not, they both move on.

Yeah, it would be cool to see that. I really doubt they'll split at this point unless one of them leaves the show, but it would be nice to see Lindsay really figure out how to be there for Danny. I feel like we've seen the reverse, and it's time for her to grow as a character in that way.

 

[Maya316]

I noticed him recoil/flinch when Mac got really angry at him in "Crime & Misdemeanor." It was just a little thing, though, but telling in my book. Danny isn't quite the type to flinch, though. For me it was telling in "Snow Day" that even after Adam had made it to safety (and Danny could see that he had--he was facing Adam), Danny continued to taunt their captors, knowing they'd kick his ass. Why? That always made me wonder. On some fundamental level, Danny really invites abuse.

Huh, I really have to watch C&M again...but yeah, I remember that about Snow Day. It was weird...I think I thought at the time that he a) wanted to make it a convincing show, or b) give Adam time to hide what he'd taken from the kit. But there was no real reason to practically ask them to kick his ass...he invites abuse, but why? Wouldn't he want to avoid it as much as possible (which seems to be the standard response for abuse victims, flinching, recoiling from touch)?

I don't know if I agree with that. Danny seems to seek some sort of deep affirmation and approval from Mac, so when he doesn't get that, he really seems hurt. And going to the lengths of chasing a suspect without a vest just to please his boss could get him killed.

True about the chasing a suspect without a vest... but Danny seems to do things that could get him killed a lot of the time, and often those things have nothing to do with pleasing Mac (jumping off a building to catch a suspect? Jumping onto a suspect on a moving motorcycle? I think he did both of these during S3.). As for the approval from Mac...I agree that he seeks it a lot, more than anyone seeks approval from just their boss. But at the same time, Mac usually has very little trouble giving him said approval, because I think it's easier to gain without involving pain. I don't think Danny can have missed the fact that Mac is one of his biggest fans, and he rarely (if ever) has to play on that fact to gain the approval he seeks from Mac.

Maybe, though again, Lindsay is perfectly content to take from him so long as he gives her what she wants. And Danny will just keep going out of his way to please her until she stops him and tells him she cares about what he wants, too. Because no one ever really says that to Danny, and I don't think Danny thinks about or even really knows what he wants for himself. Lucy is probably the first thing he's really wanted for himself on his own, without outside prompting.

I don't know, she seemed pretty angry when he wasn't giving her something of himself she wanted (for him to share his pain with her). And I don't think she's getting what she wants from Danny now, or else the walls wouldn't still be up - but she's still with him. But yeah, she definitely has to actually tell him she cares about what he wants ... and wow, I so agree about Lucy. It never even occurred to me before, but I could so see Lucy being that for Danny.

Sure, though I don't think Danny had to look out for Louie until they were both adults. I think Louie protected Danny in the way older brothers protect younger ones.

I agree about Louie's protectiveness, but I'm a little less sure about how early Danny was looking out for Louie. It was interesting how, in the Run Silent flashback, Danny seemed to be the one owning/driving the car and all bored with Sonny's antics (before he started slapping the kid around). It just seems like he knew Tanglewood was bad news from the start and disliked them for it, even then, which begs the question, why go with them that night, unless it was to look out for Louie? Danny kind of made it sound (when he was talking to Mac) like he went because he wanted to have fun and fit in, but this doesn't mesh with what he told Mac in S1 about Tanglewood - that they asked him to join, and he said no. Of course, I have no idea how old Danny/Louie were in that flashback; I thought they were supposed to be 19-ish, which I guess is kind of adult.

I think she wants him to fit into the good, devoted boyfriend/husband role she slotted him for.

I think she didn't have such a slot until late season 3/early season 4, and thus it was based entirely around Danny being the far-more-caring-though-essentially-the-same guy he was back then. And, well, it seems reasonable enough to me to expect your boyfriend/husband to care about you. She seemed to find it easy enough to be there for Danny, show that she cared for him, when he was that guy, probably because he wasn't shutting down/pulling away every time she did (although she did seem fairly stung when he brushed off her concern in The Deep).

Of course, she was probably expecting him to be that caring guy all the time, thus showing she never really understood his issues.

I think the "City of the Dolls" thing was the first instance of him really thawing to her and seeing her not just as Aiden's replacement. I also think he was responding to her interest there--he took her hand to show her something and she kind of held on/looked into his eyes. They both pulled away and he just fell back on a default response for when he picks up on someone's interest. As for "Risk," given that he approached the girl on the train after telling Lindsay she looked nice, I didn't take that bit too seriously, though it does show he's attracted to her as well.

I don't know, I picked up on Lindsay's interest in Bad Blood (the episode with the Walrus documentary?), although it wasn't definitive enough to be sure. I remember her holding his gaze in City of the Dolls, so I guess she showed interest there too (although why she then turned him down for lunch is a mystery)...and yeah, I didn't take the thing in Risk seriously either, though I don't think showing interest necessarily means he'd have to be committed to that interest.

Yes and no. The abuse is what Danny's used to--it might be cruel and terrible, but it's familiar and he knows what to expect. But when she's nice to him and treats him well, that's going to be when he's most ill at ease, because he doesn't know when that's going to change and she's going to turn on him. It's that change that would be the scariest to him and perhaps why he seemed so ill at ease with her being nice and warm to him. Why get used to it and enjoy it when she's just going to turn on him? Of course, he becomes his own self-fulfilling prophecy by not opening himself up to the good aspects of their relationship, but that's the tragedy of Danny Messer.

To be fair, I think Danny went in to trying to connect with her with only the best of intentions. It's when she started to mistreat him in season three that it fell into a pattern he was familiar with.

Yeah, it definitely is tragic. I'm unsure with just how much Danny went in trying to connect with her - I still really think he only got interested once she started turning him down (I guess, he started inviting the abuse). I guess he might've cared to some degree in late season 2, but it really seemed then like he'd be up for just a casual fling, like Lindsay was.

She needs to show him she's not going to turn on him the minute things get a little rocky, and then get him into therapy. And get herself into therapy, too. :lol:

Oh yes! I just want to lock these two in a room with a shrink and throw away the key - or at least, not let them out for a couple of weeks.

Wasn't her monologue close to the end of the episode? Again, I haven't seen it since last year, but I remember it being in Act 3 or 4, and there not really being another scene between them afterwards.

There was a brief scene even closer to the end, after the monologue, when Lindsay was tracking down greenhouses to locate the kidnapped kids. Stella left for a second, and then Danny said "I'm sorry...we should talk" (or something like that), and she kind of gave him this look but then got a hit on the kids' location.

She's attracted to his "otherness"--the fact that he's so different from her. I think that's what attracts a lot of people to Danny--Mac, Flack, even Stella to some extent. He's passionate and vulnerable, whereas they're much more in control.

Well yeah, there's also that. But I do think Lindsay's at least partly intrigued by his recklessness, because I honestly can't remember a time when she tried to change this (or anything else about him). Or maybe it's just his spontaneity. There was his spontaneous fly to Montana, then the thing with the pool table (why not just make it to the bed?) - then she seemed completely blown away by the fact that he took her shift without asking her, plus all the times she's seemed to be most impressed by him are times when he's risking his life to save someone else's (The Deep) or asking him to marry her by dragging her to the courthouse first...

 

[Top41]

Huh, I really have to watch C&M again...but yeah, I remember that about Snow Day. It was weird...I think I thought at the time that he a) wanted to make it a convincing show, or b) give Adam time to hide what he'd taken from the kit. But there was no real reason to practically ask them to kick his ass...he invites abuse, but why? Wouldn't he want to avoid it as much as possible (which seems to be the standard response for abuse victims, flinching, recoiling from touch)?

Danny is nothing if not unique. :lol: It does seem odd, but then it's not really that much different than him seeking out Lindsay when he knows she's just going to kick him or treat him badly. It really seems like Danny thinks he deserves abuse on some fundamental level.

True about the chasing a suspect without a vest... but Danny seems to do things that could get him killed a lot of the time, and often those things have nothing to do with pleasing Mac (jumping off a building to catch a suspect? Jumping onto a suspect on a moving motorcycle? I think he did both of these during S3.). As for the approval from Mac...I agree that he seeks it a lot, more than anyone seeks approval from just their boss. But at the same time, Mac usually has very little trouble giving him said approval, because I think it's easier to gain without involving pain. I don't think Danny can have missed the fact that Mac is one of his biggest fans, and he rarely (if ever) has to play on that fact to gain the approval he seeks from Mac.

I think Danny has absolutely missed that Mac is one of his biggest fans. He just sees the negative--like in "On the Job," when Mac told him that Mac was told not to hire Danny, what Danny focused on was not how much Mac obviously did want to hire him, but that people had spoken negatively about him. Even though Mac was promising him in that episode that he'd work things out, Danny never seemed to trust him to do so. Danny seems to expect he'll fail Mac. When Mac is pleased with him or saying something nice to him, Danny never seems to know what to say or how to handle it.

I don't know, she seemed pretty angry when he wasn't giving her something of himself she wanted (for him to share his pain with her).

Did she really want him to share his pain with her, or did she just think she did, or that she should want that? Again, I come back to her not reaching out to him, and letting others deal with his emotional breakdowns (Flack).

And I don't think she's getting what she wants from Danny now, or else the walls wouldn't still be up - but she's still with him.

I think she has known all along that he wants to marry her because of the baby. That's not likely to make her very confident.

But yeah, she definitely has to actually tell him she cares about what he wants ... and wow, I so agree about Lucy. It never even occurred to me before, but I could so see Lucy being that for Danny.

Danny wanted that baby from the moment he found out, very much. His excitement this entire season has not been about Lindsay, but the child. From the name to worrying about her dating to fussing over lab workers being near her...Danny is all about that kid. I think he was so antsy about Lindsay going to Montana without them being married because she was taking with her the one thing he really truly wants--their child.

I agree about Louie's protectiveness, but I'm a little less sure about how early Danny was looking out for Louie. It was interesting how, in the Run Silent flashback, Danny seemed to be the one owning/driving the car and all bored with Sonny's antics (before he started slapping the kid around). It just seems like he knew Tanglewood was bad news from the start and disliked them for it, even then, which begs the question, why go with them that night, unless it was to look out for Louie? Danny kind of made it sound (when he was talking to Mac) like he went because he wanted to have fun and fit in, but this doesn't mesh with what he told Mac in S1 about Tanglewood - that they asked him to join, and he said no. Of course, I have no idea how old Danny/Louie were in that flashback; I thought they were supposed to be 19-ish, which I guess is kind of adult.

I think Danny probably wanted to be near his older brother. What traumatized Danny in RSRD was that he thought his brother rejected him--I felt like the antagonism towards Louie before that (about being irresponsible, etc.) all stemmed from that rejection. As a teen, he probably still looked up to Louie, even if the Tanglewood boys didn't impress him that much.

I think she didn't have such a slot until late season 3/early season 4, and thus it was based entirely around Danny being the far-more-caring-though-essentially-the-same guy he was back then. And, well, it seems reasonable enough to me to expect your boyfriend/husband to care about you. She seemed to find it easy enough to be there for Danny, show that she cared for him, when he was that guy, probably because he wasn't shutting down/pulling away every time she did (although she did seem fairly stung when he brushed off her concern in The Deep).

It is, but she got upset with Danny once he stepped out of the box she'd put him in. It might come back to her control issues--she'd figured out how they were supposed to be together, and then here was unpredictable Danny, falling apart on her and not doing what she assumed he'd do (come to her, get over it more easily, whatever).

I don't know, I picked up on Lindsay's interest in Bad Blood (the episode with the Walrus documentary?), although it wasn't definitive enough to be sure.

I remember that--she teased him about the video being footage from his 30th b'day party. The crush was definitely evident then. Danny either missed or ignored it, at least in that episode.

Yeah, it definitely is tragic. I'm unsure with just how much Danny went in trying to connect with her - I still really think he only got interested once she started turning him down (I guess, he started inviting the abuse). I guess he might've cared to some degree in late season 2, but it really seemed then like he'd be up for just a casual fling, like Lindsay was.

I don't know if he thought that far ahead. I think like he does with everyone in his life, he'd come to care about her. He showed concern for her in "Stealing Home" and "All Access." Danny's just pretty caring overall.

There was a brief scene even closer to the end, after the monologue, when Lindsay was tracking down greenhouses to locate the kidnapped kids. Stella left for a second, and then Danny said "I'm sorry...we should talk" (or something like that), and she kind of gave him this look but then got a hit on the kids' location.

Right, I remember that now. Obviously it wasn't the time, but presumably she never did let him have his say... a big part of the problem I have with her. You can't dump on someone and not let them say their piece.

Well yeah, there's also that. But I do think Lindsay's at least partly intrigued by his recklessness, because I honestly can't remember a time when she tried to change this (or anything else about him). Or maybe it's just his spontaneity. There was his spontaneous fly to Montana, then the thing with the pool table (why not just make it to the bed?) - then she seemed completely blown away by the fact that he took her shift without asking her, plus all the times she's seemed to be most impressed by him are times when he's risking his life to save someone else's (The Deep) or asking him to marry her by dragging her to the courthouse first...

Is it his spontaneity or just how sweet he is, how much he cares for others, and how far he's willing to go for those he cares about? For someone like Lindsay, who's so reserved and never extends herself for others, Danny must be a complete and total enigma. I think she's drawn to someone who's so warm, so caring, so giving... totally the opposite of who she is. Opposites do attract, I guess. I've never really seen what he's seen in her though, other than another person who will mistreat him.

 

[Maya316]

Danny is nothing if not unique. :lol: It does seem odd, but then it's not really that much different than him seeking out Lindsay when he knows she's just going to kick him or treat him badly. It really seems like Danny thinks he deserves abuse on some fundamental level.

Yes, he is unique...though I think there's a significant difference between actively seeking out a brutal pummeling and leaving yourself open to possible rejection because someone needs their space. At the very least, he seems to have something else on his mind than absorbing life-threatening abuse whenever he hunts Lindsay down for whatever reason - he doesn't really seem to expect abuse in a lot of those cases, even if he gets it. Whereas I really can't explain what he was doing in Snow Day. He knew that a beat-down was going to hurt, yet he was asking for it anyway.

I think Danny has absolutely missed that Mac is one of his biggest fans. He just sees the negative--like in "On the Job," when Mac told him that Mac was told not to hire Danny, what Danny focused on was not how much Mac obviously did want to hire him, but that people had spoken negatively about him. Even though Mac was promising him in that episode that he'd work things out, Danny never seemed to trust him to do so. Danny seems to expect he'll fail Mac. When Mac is pleased with him or saying something nice to him, Danny never seems to know what to say or how to handle it.

He was on shaky footing with Mac during the first season, yeah (and maybe most of the second), but in later seasons he's seemed more secure of his place in Mac's affections, even as he's often desperate to keep pleasing him. The one thing I liked about Green Piece was the Mac/Danny talk - you could totally still see Danny searching for approval there, but it just showcased how far they'd come from "Tanglewood", where Danny seemed hesitant to talk about any feelings that might portray him in a bad light to Mac.

Did she really want him to share his pain with her, or did she just think she did, or that she should want that? Again, I come back to her not reaching out to him, and letting others deal with his emotional breakdowns (Flack).

Then why yell about it when he didn't? I mean, I think it would eventually have shown if she hadn't wanted to deal with him at all, because she then probably wouldn't have a problem with the fact that he was turning to other people and not her. If anything, she'd probably have wanted him to do whatever it took to get over Ruben's death fast, so things could return to normal.

I think she has known all along that he wants to marry her because of the baby. That's not likely to make her very confident.

Exactly. I also don't think she's really getting what she wants by being with someone who's only interest in her (personally) is the baby she was carrying. But she wants him, so she's still with him.

Danny wanted that baby from the moment he found out, very much. His excitement this entire season has not been about Lindsay, but the child. From the name to worrying about her dating to fussing over lab workers being near her...Danny is all about that kid. I think he was so antsy about Lindsay going to Montana without them being married because she was taking with her the one thing he really truly wants--their child.

Yes! I saw that exact same thing. It's not about Lindsay at all, it's about Lucy. Which makes me excited to see the Danny-->Lucy relationship in Season 6, but, well...how satisfying is that in a marriage, really?

I think Danny probably wanted to be near his older brother. What traumatized Danny in RSRD was that he thought his brother rejected him--I felt like the antagonism towards Louie before that (about being irresponsible, etc.) all stemmed from that rejection. As a teen, he probably still looked up to Louie, even if the Tanglewood boys didn't impress him that much.

I definitely agree about the antagonism, I think it came from that night. But I just get the feeling that Louie was irresponsible long before that night, only Danny didn't mind half as much.

It is, but she got upset with Danny once he stepped out of the box she'd put him in. It might come back to her control issues--she'd figured out how they were supposed to be together, and then here was unpredictable Danny, falling apart on her and not doing what she assumed he'd do (come to her, get over it more easily, whatever).

Yeah...I could see this. Danny's unpredictability probably had a huge effect on her control issues, which probably caused the upset. But Danny has long since been out of the box she put him in. And, well, I haven't really seen him do anything (since Season 3, really) that would put him back in that box, but Lindsay seemed willing enough to overlook this in Green Piece.

I don't know if he thought that far ahead. I think like he does with everyone in his life, he'd come to care about her. He showed concern for her in "Stealing Home" and "All Access." Danny's just pretty caring overall.

Oh I agree, he's definitely caring...and I did notice that in Season 2. But it just really didn't seem like, even then, he expected her to care back, if that makes sense. It's just too bad that when other people do care back, he seems to shut down or ignore it.

Right, I remember that now. Obviously it wasn't the time, but presumably she never did let him have his say... a big part of the problem I have with her. You can't dump on someone and not let them say their piece.

I also wish Danny had gotten to say more. But isn't "I'm sorry, we need to talk" kind of the signature break-up phrase? That's how I took it first time I saw RND. And given the bomb she'd already dropped at that point, I could see why Lindsay might've taken it the same way.

Is it his spontaneity or just how sweet he is, how much he cares for others, and how far he's willing to go for those he cares about? For someone like Lindsay, who's so reserved and never extends herself for others, Danny must be a complete and total enigma. I think she's drawn to someone who's so warm, so caring, so giving... totally the opposite of who she is. Opposites do attract, I guess. I've never really seen what he's seen in her though, other than another person who will mistreat him.

Well, I think there's usually more than one thing that attracts someone to someone else, so while I agree about Danny's being an enigma to Lindsay, and about his sweetness, I really think she's at least party intrigued by his utter spontaneity. Of course, this all just ties into Danny being the one big enigma that he is (with different parts that make up that mystery).

On Lindsay, she's not exactly warm or great with giving...I don't know if I'd call her uncaring, though (that scene at the end of Rush to Judgement, where she gave the vic's wife a bouquet of white lilies - because she remembered said wife mentioning that that was the same present her husband would always buy her the day after their anniversary? I thought that was pretty caring).

On what's attracting Danny...well, given that he barely seems attracted most of the time, I'm not sure. But presumably something other than the chance of abuse does, because Lindsay seems to be the only person who abuses him in his life that he refuses to let go of. [Whoever Danny's been abused by in his past, he seems to have cut them entirely out of his fonder memories of his family, and they obviously don't come by his house that much anymore. Even Louie, who'd abused him that night in Run Silent's flashback, was for the most part cut out of his life.]

 

[Top41]

Ack! I just lost a whole reply to this. Grrrr! So this will be somewhat shorter than I originally intended...

Yes, he is unique...though I think there's a significant difference between actively seeking out a brutal pummeling and leaving yourself open to possible rejection because someone needs their space. At the very least, he seems to have something else on his mind than absorbing life-threatening abuse whenever he hunts Lindsay down for whatever reason - he doesn't really seem to expect abuse in a lot of those cases, even if he gets it.

And when he gets it, he takes it. Any normal guy would have been pissed off at her "I know you" or her tirade in "Right Next Door." Danny just sat there and accepted it. Given the number of times he's gone to her and she's been mean to him, I think there is a pattern there.

He was on shaky footing with Mac during the first season, yeah (and maybe most of the second), but in later seasons he's seemed more secure of his place in Mac's affections, even as he's often desperate to keep pleasing him. The one thing I liked about Green Piece was the Mac/Danny talk - you could totally still see Danny searching for approval there, but it just showcased how far they'd come from "Tanglewood", where Danny seemed hesitant to talk about any feelings that might portray him in a bad light to Mac.

They're definitely on more solid ground now, which has been a nice evolution. I'm still not sure how much Mac gets Danny, though, and his many insecurities, given the advice he gave him in "Green Piece."

Then why yell about it when he didn't? I mean, I think it would eventually have shown if she hadn't wanted to deal with him at all, because she then probably wouldn't have a problem with the fact that he was turning to other people and not her. If anything, she'd probably have wanted him to do whatever it took to get over Ruben's death fast, so things could return to normal.

Because he wasn't her flirty, happy boyfriend anymore and that annoyed her. I know, that's a very negative light to view her in, but the way she treat him--kicking him when he was already very, very down--never has sat right with me. I think it showed a massive insensitivity on her part at best. Again, if she'd reached out to him and been shot down, that would have been a different story, but she didn't.

Yeah...I could see this. Danny's unpredictability probably had a huge effect on her control issues, which probably caused the upset. But Danny has long since been out of the box she put him in. And, well, I haven't really seen him do anything (since Season 3, really) that would put him back in that box, but Lindsay seemed willing enough to overlook this in Green Piece.

I think in season five he did everything he could to put himself back into that box of being that great, caring boyfriend she seemed to want. He seemed to try to put his issues on the shelf for her.

Oh I agree, he's definitely caring...and I did notice that in Season 2. But it just really didn't seem like, even then, he expected her to care back, if that makes sense. It's just too bad that when other people do care back, he seems to shut down or ignore it.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy--he expects people not to care about him and misses it when they do or shuts down in the face of it (thinking he's undeserving of their care) and then when they get angry or fed up it just proves to him that he was right all along. Mac and Flack don't give up on him, but Lindsay basically did just that in season four, which is why I think he took it so badly. Someone who says she loves him and yet is also walking away from him? That was probably hard for him.

R
I also wish Danny had gotten to say more. But isn't "I'm sorry, we need to talk" kind of the signature break-up phrase? That's how I took it first time I saw RND. And given the bomb she'd already dropped at that point, I could see why Lindsay might've taken it the same way.

Maybe, but it could have also been an "I'm sorry I hurt you," which is how I took it. She never let him have his say, effectively guaranteeing they broke up.

Well, I think there's usually more than one thing that attracts someone to someone else, so while I agree about Danny's being an enigma to Lindsay, and about his sweetness, I really think she's at least party intrigued by his utter spontaneity. Of course, this all just ties into Danny being the one big enigma that he is (with different parts that make up that mystery).

On Lindsay, she's not exactly warm or great with giving...I don't know if I'd call her uncaring, though (that scene at the end of Rush to Judgement, where she gave the vic's wife a bouquet of white lilies - because she remembered said wife mentioning that that was the same present her husband would always buy her the day after their anniversary? I thought that was pretty caring).

Heh, all I remember from that scene was Belknap's stone face. But that was a nice gesture, though I did find it out-of-character since she'd never exhibited that kind of care for anyone before.

On what's attracting Danny...well, given that he barely seems attracted most of the time, I'm not sure. But presumably something other than the chance of abuse does, because Lindsay seems to be the only person who abuses him in his life that he refuses to let go of. [Whoever Danny's been abused by in his past, he seems to have cut them entirely out of his fonder memories of his family, and they obviously don't come by his house that much anymore. Even Louie, who'd abused him that night in Run Silent's flashback, was for the most part cut out of his life.]

He invited Hawkes home for some of his mom's cooking one time, and has mentioned his mom before, so I think he's still close to his family.

As for Lindsay--I really can't see what attracted him at all! The foundation of their relationship is antagonism, and they don't seem to have a lot in common. I've never seen the draw for him.

 

[Maya316]

And when he gets it, he takes it. Any normal guy would have been pissed off at her "I know you" or her tirade in "Right Next Door." Danny just sat there and accepted it. Given the number of times he's gone to her and she's been mean to him, I think there is a pattern there.

He was pissed off at her "I know you" - I remember he sounded at least as irritated as she did in that scene, and then he's the one who walked away first.

Not as sure about Right Next Door - I still saw him basically breaking up with her shortly after that scene, so...

I'd say the number of times she's been mean to him when he goes to her, kind of evenly match up with the number of times she's been willing to talk/be nice when he goes to her (3 and 3 each), which leads me to believe he doesn't really know what to expect...but it still doesn't seem like he goes in always expecting her blow-offs.

They're definitely on more solid ground now, which has been a nice evolution. I'm still not sure how much Mac gets Danny, though, and his many insecurities, given the advice he gave him in "Green Piece."

True, but then I don't think there's anyone on the show that actually, completely gets Danny. We do know that Mac's very fond of him, though, and I think Danny has at least been able to tell lately.

Because he wasn't her flirty, happy boyfriend anymore and that annoyed her. I know, that's a very negative light to view her in, but the way she treat him--kicking him when he was already very, very down--never has sat right with me. I think it showed a massive insensitivity on her part at best. Again, if she'd reached out to him and been shot down, that would have been a different story, but she didn't

That would kind of match up with what I mentioned before - if all she wanted was her flirty, happy boyfriend back, she wouldn't care as much how he came back, just as long as he did. She probably wouldn't care who he went to talk to to get over Ruben's death, so long as he got over it.

She certainly could've handled the situation in that office better. But I'm not nearly as sympathetic to Danny in this case. Even if he was able to ignore/not notice Lindsay's attempts to support him (because that's literally what he would've had to be doing to not see them - ignoring or just not noticing her), I as a viewer saw them, so to me it's like she did reach out and was shot down. Flack, Mac, all kinds of people make allowances for Danny's emotional damage, but it's like it honestly doesn't occur to him that he should ever have to do the same. Because of course, they don't really care about him or what he thinks, according to him. I love him, so I can understand how his insecurities would make him think this kind of behaviour makes sense. But I can totally see how it also makes him act rather insensitive himself.

I think in season five he did everything he could to put himself back into that box of being that great, caring boyfriend she seemed to want. He seemed to try to put his issues on the shelf for her.

He did it for Lucy, not for her. It's not the same, and I think Lindsay was able to tell that. Only it didn't seem to matter for her.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy--he expects people not to care about him and misses it when they do or shuts down in the face of it (thinking he's undeserving of their care) and then when they get angry or fed up it just proves to him that he was right all along. Mac and Flack don't give up on him, but Lindsay basically did just that in season four, which is why I think he took it so badly. Someone who says she loves him and yet is also walking away from him? That was probably hard for him.

It's probably at least as hard for the people whose care he shuts down in the face of. Only for Danny, it just seemed to get easier once she started walking away, because rather than proving him right, that seemed to be the only time he started to hardcore believe that she actually cared.

I do think Flack and Mac have done their work in letting him know that they won't give up on him, but on the other hand, they have more going for them. Danny tends to let them know that he's troubled, even to tell them what he needs (he outright told Mac in RSRD that he needed a friend, not a boss, even though he was still on shaky footing with him; he spilled to Flack about both Aiden and Rikki stealing his gun). Danny may not always believe they care, but he pays attention when they seem to want to help. Furthermore, Danny never seems to actually hurt them when he brushes off their care (Flack was peeved in All in the Family, but I doubt he was actually hurt).

Maybe, but it could have also been an "I'm sorry I hurt you," which is how I took it. She never let him have his say, effectively guaranteeing they broke up.

True, I guess it could have been. In light of later episodes, that probably makes more sense (though it didn't seem like it at the time), but it's just irritating that it has to get to the point of hurting people before he decides to believe they care.

Heh, all I remember from that scene was Belknap's stone face. But that was a nice gesture, though I did find it out-of-character since she'd never exhibited that kind of care for anyone before.

I don't remember Belknap's facial expression, I just remembered the gesture But maybe she's just learning in baby steps to be more caring? In Boo, she brought that Rose (?) girl a teddy bear when they went to the hospital.

He invited Hawkes home for some of his mom's cooking one time, and has mentioned his mom before, so I think he's still close to his family.

As for Lindsay--I really can't see what attracted him at all! The foundation of their relationship is antagonism, and they don't seem to have a lot in common. I've never seen the draw for him.

Immediate family, yeah I think he's still close with them. As for Lindsay...maybe he finds her funny, or likes that she laughs at his lamer jokes. I don't know, I can reel off a whole list of things I like about Lindsay, but I'd say Danny hasn't noticed any of them. Which basically confirms my belief that he barely likes her (as a girlfriend), he's just with her because he thinks she's the best he can get right now.