Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[Top41]

I think Lindsay took the hazing as mean; she looked downright angry in Young Blood - hence the competing - and kind of taken aback when he was short with her in Bad Blood. But yeah, I don't think Danny meant it as harshly as she seemed to take it. So should we be judging in terms of nastiness in general, or how meanly it may have been taken by the person getting hazed/snapped at/ignored/etc? (Definitely true about Manhattan Manhunt, but Danny didn't seem the least bit bothered when she snapped at him).

Nastiness in general, I think. When did Danny snap at her in "Bad Blood"? Was it after the 30th birthday crack? I recall Danny being taken aback by her snippiness in "Manhattan Manhunt" but also taking it remarkably in stride for Danny.

Yeah, definitely. But at least with Mac, he seemed willing to believe it when he'd finally made it into Mac's good graces.

Eventually. I think he still has little insecurities with Mac, but I agree that he believes Mac cares about him. But then, even when Mac was being harsh with him, Mac was trying to get that message across. Mac never totally shut him out in the way Lindsay did.

Presumably, Danny didn't do anything to set her off after the skipped shift. She was angry about it, though - I remember she was kind of sullen toward him at the beginning of Playing With Matches. Just as quietly-sullen as she was about the skipped lunch in RND. She was mad about both things, and if you ask me, didn't intend to confront him about either. If Danny had just gone to get coffee without pressing her about it, I doubt he'd've ever heard her outburst. Which is why I saw it as general concern. If she just wanted her boyfriend back, I don't think that Danny would've been able to set her off with the comments he made - she would've just accepted the coffee. If it was at all about her birthday...well, it kind of seemed obvious that Danny was trying to make that up to her, and she would've just taken the peace offering.

I think Lindsay knew the coffee was a band aid, which is why she didn't accept it. He didn't even ask her to go for coffee, did he--didn't he just ask her if she wanted some? I can't remember right now. Either way, I think the overall point stands--Danny was no loner the awesome, sweet boyfriend who flew to Montana and switched shifts with her. It's hard for me to see concern for him, because she never really expressed it--that speech was all about her.

He wasn't leaning on them - that was the problem, and that's why I think she made the comment. I really disagree that he was doing better by Right Next Door. Even if we discount the fact that it was him who was pushing to continue that self-destructive thing he had with Rikki (whether or not Rikki came on to him first, even she seemed to realize by the next morning that it was a bad idea), and how insensitive he might've been acting toward Lindsay; at least in the episodes shortly following Child's Play he wasn't showing up to work looking like he'd just rolled out of bed. It really seemed like he was headed in this downward spiral until he hit rock-bottom.

Did he look more disheveled than normal in 414-416? I agree that he probably wasn't getting better, but on the surface he seemed to be. And how could she know anything beyond the surface if she never bothered to ask or reach out?

This comes back to the division I see in his perception of Lindsay - I think he's totally emotionally involved with the Lindsay he sees as a friend and coworker. It's the Lindsay that's his girlfriend/wife that I don't see him being emotionally invested with. Which, hey, means that at least he cares about her in some way, but that's why it drives me crazy that he insists on keeping Lindsay as his girlfriend/wife.

Danny's concern since she told him she was pregnant and didn't expect anything has been about staying in that baby's life. I haven't seen one move from him since then that hasn't had an echo of desperation to it. He cares about her, but his fear of abandonment says she's going to leave him (like she did in "Right Next Door" when the going got tough) and worse, take his kid. I doubt Danny has given any real deep thought to his motivations for being with Lindsay beyond that.

I found it very easy to sympathize with her in that scene - I actually thought it was a little ridiculous that Danny even needed an explanation as to why. (He didn't have to chase her for it, though, they were just kind of walking together when he suddenly demanded to know why.) A baby is so not a good enough reason to get married, and Danny knew perfectly well that that was his only reason for asking. Top that with the fact that she loved him, while he was asking for a reason almost entirely unconnected with her, and it really seemed like - then, anyway - she was trying to prevent the mass disaster I fully expect to see in Season 6.

I totally sympathized with her reasons but didn't think Danny should have had to ask. She could have told him her reasoning when she said no, instead of walking away. But that's what she always does to Danny... is it any wonder the guy thinks she's going to up and leave with his baby?

On a side note, I'm not a guy (obviously :lol: ) but I can imagine that would be really frightening. I'm totally a feminist when it comes to women's/mother's rights, but from the other side, until that baby is born, the man has little to no control over what happens. Lindsay could have up and decided to move home to Montana and Danny would have had no say in the matter. He would have had to take her to court, and even then, most likely would have lost. So I get where he's coming from.

I remember that scene, but I definitely don't remember Lindsay sounding casual. (And I can't see Mac allowing her to take personal time without knowing why...he kind of just looked at her until she started spilling her explanation.) She seemed awkward to me when she was telling Mac what was going on, almost like she'd rather not - she was basically talking about the trial as though it were just a random case, only reluctantly mentioning that the victims were her friends - and it was Mac who had to bring up the fact that she'd also been a witness/survivor.

Right, she was talking about it like it was just a random case, which was what struck me about it. I get that she was probably distancing herself emotionally from it, but at the same time, it did come off as detached.

And then as soon as she let the comment about "faces" slip, she seemed embarrassed and made the first move to leave. I remember her hug with Stella being almost comfortable, but I thought she seemed surprised when Mac wanted to hug her as well. It's one of my favourite Lindsay scenes, because I thought it completely epitomized her issues with people. Here were two people who were obviously concerned about her and cared, and it was like she was glad they cared, but couldn't get out of the office fast enough.

I didn't feel anything rushed about the scene--I remember the hugs being rather long. It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but what I really remember from it was the amount of warmth both Mac and Stella had for her, and how she was pretty open with them about it.

And Mac, knowing her past, might have let her take personal time without an explanation. Maybe, maybe not--hard to say. But the audience needed an explanation, so that's partially mechanics.

I remember Danny coming by when all the hugging was going on, but given Lindsay's awkwardness in that scene and how she wasn't meeting anyone's eye when she left the office, I really think spilling to anyone else was the last thing on her mind.

No, and if I remember correctly, he didn't approach her. I think he'd gotten the "get lost" vibes by then...which again set the tone for the rest of their interactions going forward. They've never really seemed comfortable together.

I think he'll get away with it too, if only because I can't see the writers going down that road again. After the number of times IAB's investigated the people on this team, it's practically becoming a cliche. He may go over the edge if Danny gets hurt (though I don't think that'll be an issue), but just in general, he's already started to slip down from his integrity-pedestal...I'm just wondering if he'll be able to climb back up or if that thing at the end of Pay Up was kind of like opening a gate for him.

I'm curious to see, too. I think Flack has a real strong sense of right and wrong, and his mind, that guy absolutely deserved to die.

I can't condemn Danny for not doing what I think he should've done (and certainly before sleeping with Lindsay), but not approve of Lindsay doing exactly that same thing. I think at the time she was setting the date, she did think she'd be able to go through with a relationship; although yeah, she should've at least sent him a text so he wasn't sitting there on the date alone.

Yeah, exactly--she should have texted or called or something. But it was the "Oedipus Hex" episode where she really took advantage of him. She shouldn't have been manipulating him two episodes after he basically said he had feelings for her.

Danny/Adam! I was iffy at first, but that friendship has definitely grown on me.

I like that, too! Adam's mancrush on Danny cracks me up. :lol:

The thing is, without Belknap's acting I'm absolutely convinced we would've been seeing a constantly-perky, constantly-sweet, genuinely-warm-and-endearing-herself-to-everyone Lindsay whom everyone adored without measure, who could do no wrong, and who I would constantly want to kick very hard. I don't know if the element of aloofness to Lindsay's character was purposely scripted or not, but that was the main thing that stopped me from seeing Lindsay as a complete Mary Sue, the fact that she wasn't completely perfect and it would actually be a little hard to adore her without measure. I'm inclined to think the aloofness wasn't scripted, though. Because the times when Lindsay's aloofness make her act erratically are also the times the other characters seem to forgive her, or let her walk all over them, no matter what she's done.

See, for me it's the opposite--that aloofness keeps me from liking her, and seeing anything endearing or appealing about her. She's cold and closed off from people--she's not the sort of person I'd ever like in real life. I get that she's damaged, but at the same time, her off-putting personality makes it hard for me to feel sorry for her. She acts like others owe her--she can skip out on jobs or crime scenes with impunity--and I loathe people who play the victim card. If she'd been taken to task for any of that, it wouldn't be so noxious to me, but she is, and that's what I can't stomach.

She's still being written as a Mary Sue - I think that's part of what makes her character so unsympathetic a lot of the time (if she can do no wrong, then she's never treated like she has done wrong). For example, Lindsay was equally at fault in the D/L fallout of RND, but I don't think the writers meant for us to see it that way. I think they meant for us to see Lindsay as totally in the right, and given the backlash against Danny I keep running into online, I'd say it worked for part of the fandom.

I'm not sure the writers meant to totally vilify Danny, either, or they would have made it clear he was cheating (something they've maintained he didn't do). I think we're supposed to see Lindsay's rant as something of a "wake up" call for Danny, but I don't really think that's fair either, since she didn't do her part in reaching out to him.

As for fandom, there's definitely a range of opinion, though there's certainly that subset that perhaps... over-identifies with Lindsay, or wants to. I think the reason the D/L relationship still exists (and was thought up in the first place) was to appeal to a younger, less typical of CSI fanbase...shippers, I guess. Which is not to say all fans of the pairing are like that--absolutely, they're not--but if you go over to some other sites, you see that the pairing has definitely reached a teen audience, something CSI: NY might not have done otherwise.

I don't see what he would've felt cornered by - when Stella started teasing him about his girlfriend in You Only Die Once, didn't he just change the subject? He doesn't strike me as one to give into peer pressure.

Did Stella continue to go at it like Lindsay did? What I noticed was that he did try to divert her the first time she asked, but then she pressed on and he gave in and answered, probably because to do otherwise would have seemed weird.

What Schemes May Come is the episode I was referring to, I completely forgot what it was called. :lol: Yeah, that's the one where he was the first to be entertained by her demonstration (the only time he's been present for her demonstrations). The only time I can think of where he might've been annoyed was when he mentioned there were lots of greenhouses in New York (a while after her speech ended), and even then I'd hesitate to say it was annoyance. I think Lindsay would've been a lot more standoffish with her retort if she'd sensed annoyance.

Oh, I remember total annoyance on his part with her long-winded explanation. He had some sort of reply that seemed to suggest he wanted her to hurry up or that he didn't find her findings all that compelling--probably the greenhouse comment. Of course that led to a Mary Sue moment where she showed, indeed!, she is such a genius.

True, Flack may have been more comfortable just because Danny was there...still not sure this would extend to nicknaming Lindsay and laughing at the jokes she made at Danny's expense (something about Danny's favourite wine).

Doesn't everybody call her Linds? I don't remember that being a special nickname of Flack's for her.

Especially not knowing that she'd shot him down, left without an in-person goodbye, and Danny still flew to Montana on no sleep after a 24-hour shift...and then witnessing her making jokes at Danny's expense. I mean, unless they could at least partly understand things from Lindsay's point of view, I don't see how anyone else would not be giving her the silent treatment (at the very least) after all that. Because if we're just looking from the point-of-view of someone who's concerned with Danny...that really, really seems like Lindsay was just taking advantage of him.

Yeah, I kind of wish Flack had been a little cold to her. :lol: But again, Danny's presence changed things I think. He certainly wasn't going to be cold to her in front of Danny and make an issue of things.

 

[Top41]

Part 2:

I think Danny honestly wouldn't care if Flack were mean/cold to Lindsay, I certainly can't see him holding it against Flack. Like you mentioned with the Personal Foul thing, Danny laughed when Flack made that dig. So I really don't think it's Danny who's holding Flack back from showing his irritation to Lindsay directly, if he does want to be cold to her. If he didn't want to accept her, I don't think consideration for Danny would make him.

I think Danny might care if Flack were mean to her face and I think Flack knows that. The joke in PF was probably the only way he could express himself because he knows how emotional Danny is and easily he can get upset. I think Flack probably shields Danny from a lot. I remember the way he looked at Danny in RSRD when he was telling Mac "We're not going anywhere." There's something very, very protective about the way Flack treats Danny, almost with kid gloves. So yeah, I think consideration for Danny would make him hold back, and even tread lightly where Danny is concerned. That little joke in PF was probably as deeply as he treaded into those waters...but I think it said a lot.

Yeah, I definitely agree that if Flack could pick someone for Danny, it wouldn't be Lindsay. Hell, I don't think even Lindsay would've picked herself for Danny's ideal person - she usually seems to be aware of how much they just don't work as a couple. She seemed to know from way back in Season 2 that she wouldn't be able to give Danny what he needed in terms of emotional support.

Yeah, but she still went for him anyway, and thus took on that responsibility willingly.

The thing is, I think it's very hard to tell that Lindsay cares about Danny unless you're trying to understand things from her point-of-view. I think it would be even harder to tell this when you're looking through the eyes of someone who cares about Danny and have seen how much she's hurt him. So I just find it impressive that Flack manages to tell that about Lindsay anyway.

I half wonder if Flack is coming at it from his own viewpoint--he cares about Danny so much that he can't fathom someone being as involved with Danny as Lindsay is wouldn't care for him deeply, too. I think if Flack suspected otherwise, he'd be mighty angry at her.

I see it as a certain level of personal connection when she calls him by his first name, and my favoured interactions between them are usually the ones where Danny is not in trouble, or even involved. The instances where Danny is in trouble usually don't leave much room for discussion or consolation, though - hostage situation, Danny disappearing (and if Flack forgot about Lindsay after AitF, that means she must've gotten her info about that day from Danny).

Maybe not, but I think we'd see more of a connection between them in those scenes. Instead, I see a notable distance--he doesn't look at her, kind of holds himself apart, and she doesn't really say much either.

As for her calling him by his first name, doesn't she do that for everyone?

They certainly weren't relating on the doll thing in Silicone, and I definitely thought it was friendly-ish of Flack to not say anything when Lindsay got bossy with him in Dead Inside. He seemed amused, rather than aghast when Sam mistook her for his girlfriend...and if he really didn't trust her, why not take Sam outside to argue, rather than argue in Lindsay's plain sight (and how awkward would that ride back to the precinct have been?)?

I remember them both shooting down Sam's suspicion pretty quickly. :lol:

The other thing is, Personal Foul shows me that Flack can express whatever feelings he might have to Danny, without worrying about Danny's reception. I don't think it was just about assuming Danny would want to hear his irritation - it was about Flack being someone who says what he wants, when he wants. It wasn't like Danny was mad at Lindsay (presumably, or he definitely shouldn't have been chasing her), but he laughed anyway; which is, again, why I don't think Flack ever had the impression that he should hide what he feels about Lindsay around Danny, if he's irritated with her.

I think Flack knew they were on the outs (since apparently Lindsay was originally supposed to go to the game with Danny) and took a chance to express what he's been feeling about her in a total guy way--he made a joke about it. Danny laughed for a long time, but it wasn't like Flack was going to say, right there at the game, "No, really, I can't stand her. You can do better!" It's possible he would have broached it after the game, but then that pesky murder happened, lol! Flack didn't look pleased that his time with Danny was interrupted--and Lindsay got to crash their man-date. :lol:

And Flack's just not the kind of guy to be nice to people's faces and bitch about them behind their backs, so I think if he genuinely was irritated with Lindsay, Lindsay would know about it.

No, he's not, but overall I think respect/care for Danny trumps his personal feelings about Lindsay. I don't think he talks about her behind her back--I suspect he keeps his feelings to himself.

He is, I love it! He's so completely level-headed and rational - maybe I just have a thing about stoic characters; other than Lindsay, he's definitely my favourite But unlike Lindsay, he's so open to emotions that he can take on Danny...which I guess is why I find him so interesting.

Yeah, which is why I enjoy their interactions so much--they're such opposites, but they have this deep friendship and Flack knows exactly how to handle Danny's emotional meltdowns. And seems to want to as well. You'd think anyone less patient would have given up on Danny long ago.

Argh, I had to cut out so much because my post was overlong

If you need to, feel free to split it into two now and then. These are getting long again, lol! I might have to split this one....

Yep, indeed I do! :lol:

 

[Kaitlyn]

I've been lurking and following this thread since the discussion started in the S6 spoiler thread.

I'm a stout Flack-ophile, so have to admit the D/L thing had been mostly filler for me. While enduring the long wait for S6, this has made for a definite enhancement in my viewing of old episodes. The points made by all about both Danny and Lindsay have me digging out my DVDs and watching with a different perspective. :wtf:

Haven't decided which camp I may set my tent up in yet, but loving the discussion!

 

[Top41]

I've been lurking and following this thread since the discussion started in the S6 spoiler thread.

I'm a stout Flack-ophile, so have to admit the D/L thing had been mostly filler for me. While enduring the long wait for S6, this has made for a definite enhancement in my viewing of old episodes. The points made by all about both Danny and Lindsay have me digging out my DVDs and watching with a different perspective. :wtf:

Haven't decided which camp I may set my tent up in yet, but loving the discussion!

Thanks for reading and following the discussion, and for piping up! And please, don't let the long posts (and I realize some of mine have gotten really long ) stop you from posting! Don't feel obligated to reply to everything--if you've got a point to discuss, just jump on in!

Flack is probably deserving of his own thread--his stoicism really fascinates me. He's such a tough, balanced character, which makes his friendship with vulnerable, emotional Danny all the more interesting. I often wonder why Danny doesn't irritated the hell out of Flack, but he never does--Flack seems to have an endless fount of patience when it comes to Danny.

 

[Maya316]

Part 1: (Lol, the two-post thing is a lifesaver :lol

Nastiness in general, I think. When did Danny snap at her in "Bad Blood"? Was it after the 30th birthday crack? I recall Danny being taken aback by her snippiness in "Manhattan Manhunt" but also taking it remarkably in stride for Danny.

Yeah, it was after the birthday crack; but I think Lindsay managed to take the snappiness in stride too (or Hawkes did, he was kind of the one who smoothed over the remark, let Lindsay in on what was going on).

Eventually. I think he still has little insecurities with Mac, but I agree that he believes Mac cares about him. But then, even when Mac was being harsh with him, Mac was trying to get that message across. Mac never totally shut him out in the way Lindsay did.

No, Mac has never totally shut Danny out, although I think that moment in The Closer, end of S1 came close ... Danny came into the office telling him he'd completed the psych evaluation, and Mac didn't give much back.

I really think Lindsay has always tried to get the message across that when she shuts Danny out, it's not about him specifically. Even at the end of S4, I don't think it was about not wanting to talk to Danny, it was about needing to regroup - if not, she probably wouldn't have been able to interact with him even as a coworker.

I think Lindsay knew the coffee was a band aid, which is why she didn't accept it. He didn't even ask her to go for coffee, did he--didn't he just ask her if she wanted some? I can't remember right now. Either way, I think the overall point stands--Danny was no loner the awesome, sweet boyfriend who flew to Montana and switched shifts with her. It's hard for me to see concern for him, because she never really expressed it--that speech was all about her.

The coffee was a band-aid (yeah, he only asked if she wanted some), but it was more than that; he was trying to get back into her good graces over the birthday thing even in DOA for a Day. I agree band-aids aren't much, but they're a start...which is why I think if Lindsay just wanted things to be normal again, she would've taken his peace offerings. Of course, I think she did at least partly want the caring-Danny back, that's just natural - but I don't think she was just willing to accept him back without having dealt with his issues.

I agree the speech was kind of lacking in explicit concern (word-wise)...but that's a large part of where I see Lindsay at fault. She really shouldn't have waited to let him know she was concerned until he'd made her angry, because in general, lashing out just looks like lashing out, no matter how concerned you are. I think the speech was all about her because she was on the defense - Danny was so obviously not dealing well, and then he was implying that she was the one with the problem.

Did he look more disheveled than normal in 414-416? I agree that he probably wasn't getting better, but on the surface he seemed to be. And how could she know anything beyond the surface if she never bothered to ask or reach out?

He really did. :lol: It was okay in Happily Never After, and even toward the end of the season, but between All in the Family and Right Next Door, I remember repeatedly being hit with the desire to just toss him into the nearest shower (in, um, a mostly-non-smutty way ). Especially in DOA for a Day he looked unshaven and his clothes were a little haphazard...I always thought they did it that way on purpose, to kind of show what he was going through without making constant references to Ruben.

Aside from the obvious physical signs, I think Lindsay had to have an idea of what was going on beneath the surface (if nothing else, she had to have gotten some kind of explanation for AitF, and I think she knows Danny well enough to figure out why he wasn't able to turn Rikki in).

Danny's concern since she told him she was pregnant and didn't expect anything has been about staying in that baby's life. I haven't seen one move from him since then that hasn't had an echo of desperation to it. He cares about her, but his fear of abandonment says she's going to leave him (like she did in "Right Next Door" when the going got tough) and worse, take his kid. I doubt Danny has given any real deep thought to his motivations for being with Lindsay beyond that.

True, I don't think he's actually given much thought to why he's staying with Lindsay since she told him about the baby. It's frustrating, because this is definitely one of the cases where things would've been better had he just stopped and thought for a second. But it's kind of a pattern with Danny that drives me crazy...he wasn't any more emotionally invested with girlfriend!Lindsay in Personal Foul than he is now with wife!Lindsay (imo), so the phone call thing just annoyed me.

I totally sympathized with her reasons but didn't think Danny should have had to ask. She could have told him her reasoning when she said no, instead of walking away. But that's what she always does to Danny... is it any wonder the guy thinks she's going to up and leave with his baby?

Yeah, she's always just saying her piece and then leaving (think this might partly come back to how she'd probably like to be dealt with herself after she's gotten big news - she prefers people would give her space to think on it for a while). But that scene in the Triangle was a little weird, especially the way she put her hand on his shoulder when she said no. To me it read like she was trying to reassure him that he didn't have to marry her to stay in the baby's life - she seemed to assume that he'd be relieved by her no, and then got confused when he just seemed hurt.

On a side note, I'm not a guy (obviously :lol: ) but I can imagine that would be really frightening. I'm totally a feminist when it comes to women's/mother's rights, but from the other side, until that baby is born, the man has little to no control over what happens. Lindsay could have up and decided to move home to Montana and Danny would have had no say in the matter. He would have had to take her to court, and even then, most likely would have lost. So I get where he's coming from.

I definitely see how that would've been frightening ... if she thought he wouldn't want to be involved, I could totally see Lindsay moving back to Montana. But I also think that one fear could've/should've been a catalyst to make Danny actually listen to Lindsay when she was showing him she cared, rather than a reason to dive into something he didn't want, and mess things up further between Lindsay and himself. She specifically told him in that episode that he didn't have to marry her because she wasn't going anywhere...which he chose to ignore.

I didn't feel anything rushed about the scene--I remember the hugs being rather long. It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but what I really remember from it was the amount of warmth both Mac and Stella had for her, and how she was pretty open with them about it.

And Mac, knowing her past, might have let her take personal time without an explanation. Maybe, maybe not--hard to say. But the audience needed an explanation, so that's partially mechanics.

I think the hugs were long because Mac and Stella insisted on it...I don't think Lindsay even started hugging Mac back until he'd held her for a few seconds. And she did seem grateful that they cared, but at the same time it seemed like she didn't know what she should be doing with that care, and so wanted to leave.

No, and if I remember correctly, he didn't approach her. I think he'd gotten the "get lost" vibes by then...which again set the tone for the rest of their interactions going forward. They've never really seemed comfortable together.

No, he didn't approach her, but I think that's why he smiled when he got the card...because leaving one in the first place doesn't really scream "get lost". I think they've been comfortable enough together if we're just going by platonic hugs like the one in Mac's office - the hug in Sleight Out of Hand looked at least that friendly and caring, on both sides. Just the "romance" aspect of their relationship is off on so many levels.

I'm curious to see, too. I think Flack has a real strong sense of right and wrong, and his mind, that guy absolutely deserved to die.

He does have a good sense of right and wrong, that's why I thought it so significant that he thought the guy deserved to die. There's justice and there's vengeance - and Flack was personally involved, but he more than anyone should've known the difference. I think he did, actually know the difference...it's why he looked kind of drained when he met Danny outside of the boiler room. He knows it was basically murder.

I like that, too! Adam's mancrush on Danny cracks me up. :lol:

LOL, he's always trying to impress Danny, and Danny makes it so hard for him sometimes. :lol:

See, for me it's the opposite--that aloofness keeps me from liking her, and seeing anything endearing or appealing about her. She's cold and closed off from people--she's not the sort of person I'd ever like in real life. I get that she's damaged, but at the same time, her off-putting personality makes it hard for me to feel sorry for her. She acts like others owe her--she can skip out on jobs or crime scenes with impunity--and I loathe people who play the victim card. If she'd been taken to task for any of that, it wouldn't be so noxious to me, but she is, and that's what I can't stomach.

I'm more sympathetic to the aloofness because I know quite a few people like that - it's hard to get behind their walls unless they really, really know you. It's not exactly something I approve of, but I find it fascinating in Lindsay - especially because to me, she has a lot of endearing aspects to her character that would make her a person worth knowing, if you could get behind the walls.

I think the off-putting part of her personality isn't so much about her playing the victim card - it's not that she acts like others owe her, it's that they let her think they owe her. Which is totally bad Mary-Sue writing...playing the victim card is usually Mary Sue's get-out-of-jail-free card.

I'm not sure the writers meant to totally vilify Danny, either, or they would have made it clear he was cheating (something they've maintained he didn't do). I think we're supposed to see Lindsay's rant as something of a "wake up" call for Danny, but I don't really think that's fair either, since she didn't do her part in reaching out to him.

As for fandom, there's definitely a range of opinion, though there's certainly that subset that perhaps... over-identifies with Lindsay, or wants to. I think the reason the D/L relationship still exists (and was thought up in the first place) was to appeal to a younger, less typical of CSI fanbase...shippers, I guess. Which is not to say all fans of the pairing are like that--absolutely, they're not--but if you go over to some other sites, you see that the pairing has definitely reached a teen audience, something CSI: NY might not have done otherwise.

I don't think the writers intended to vilify Danny either, although I do still suspect they only maintained in interviews that Danny wasn't cheating to stop the D/L part of their fanbase from collapsing/imploding-with-rage (um, there are some rabid fans out there :wtf. It's annoying, because I've always thought it was perfectly clear that D/L were so in an off-again phase around RND, but if they hadn't been writing Lindsay as the obviously-injured party(TM), that would've been clearer. It's why I think they should've added scenes like Lindsay maybe approaching Danny about his skipped shift, and showing how that would disintegrate into confrontation - show us examples of how awful Lindsay was at reaching out. Because I think she tried, but her attempts (like they usually do) would've flubbed, and pushed Danny further away. And yes, I definitely agree that D/L was designed to cater to a teen audience. It totally shows. I think that's why they refuse to let go of it, but at the same time it's ridiculous, especially when it gets to the extent of interfering with the show itself and dragging down the characters.

 

[Maya316]

Part Two:

Did Stella continue to go at it like Lindsay did? What I noticed was that he did try to divert her the first time she asked, but then she pressed on and he gave in and answered, probably because to do otherwise would have seemed weird.

I don't remember, I think his girlfriend might've come over at that point. But for Lindsay, I don't think it would've seemed weird if he either hadn't answered or kept diverting her after she pressed. It would've seemed like he didn't appreciate the teasing...which, if he really didn't, I think would've been a message he'd be more than fine with sending.

Oh, I remember total annoyance on his part with her long-winded explanation. He had some sort of reply that seemed to suggest he wanted her to hurry up or that he didn't find her findings all that compelling--probably the greenhouse comment. Of course that led to a Mary Sue moment where she showed, indeed!, she is such a genius.

Definitely a Mary-Sue moment...I was cringing because when she came in reeling off her explanation, they made sure to show Flack, then Stella and Hawkes all start smiling and chuckling, and I just :brickwall: I think I would've liked it more if someone had told her to get on with it. Or even if they'd made it clear that she was acting like a know-it-all, and it was supposed to be annoying rather than endearing. (To be fair, at least they kind of started doing that in Season 4/5 with Mac and Stella.)

Doesn't everybody call her Linds? I don't remember that being a special nickname of Flack's for her.

Lindsay seems to be oddly formal with a lot of people (I remember how weird I found it when she called Peyton "Doctor Driscoll" in S3), so I think that tends to reflect back on her, since most people just call her Lindsay. It's definitely not a special nickname of Flack's for her - Hawkes and Danny call her Linds on occasion. I think I've heard Stella call her that once or twice. But...well, Danny and Hawkes are kind of close to Lindsay. And Flack, who'd probably have that extra reason to stick with the far-more-formal Monroe, doesn't, which is why I find it telling.

Yeah, I kind of wish Flack had been a little cold to her. :lol: But again, Danny's presence changed things I think. He certainly wasn't going to be cold to her in front of Danny and make an issue of things.

I'm still not sure it would've been much of an issue even with Danny's presence, but yeah, it would've been kind of nice to at least see Flack acknowledge what Lindsay put Danny through. It's never made much sense that he just...well, doesn't. I mean, I have my reasons for why he doesn't, but they're not entirely supported by the show, so...

I think Danny might care if Flack were mean to her face and I think Flack knows that. The joke in PF was probably the only way he could express himself because he knows how emotional Danny is and easily he can get upset. I think Flack probably shields Danny from a lot. I remember the way he looked at Danny in RSRD when he was telling Mac "We're not going anywhere." There's something very, very protective about the way Flack treats Danny, almost with kid gloves. So yeah, I think consideration for Danny would make him hold back, and even tread lightly where Danny is concerned. That little joke in PF was probably as deeply as he treaded into those waters...but I think it said a lot.

The PF joke didn't really seem like Flack hesitated before saying it, it just sort of came out, which is why I think Flack has totally said things like that to Danny before. Danny didn't seem surprised by Flack saying it, he just laughed, and I think it would've showed more if this was the first time Danny was hearing about any irritation Flack had. I agree Flack shields Danny from a lot, but those are usually things that would hurt him. And I really doubt he'd be hurt by Flack being mean to Lindsay (if Flack wanted to be mean), and I think Flack knows that. If nothing else, Lindsay is more than able to take hazing (she did from Danny), Danny knows that. Moreover, Danny never seems to care if suspects are bitchy to Lindsay, I can't see him caring if his best friend is. Finally...well, even if Flack were being mean to Lindsay behind Danny's back, I really can't see it ever getting back to Danny. It's not like she would tattle.

Yeah, but she still went for him anyway, and thus took on that responsibility willingly.

True, but she definitely seems to be unnervingly weak when it comes to Danny sometimes. I think her intrigue with Danny overruled common sense (it would've been common sense not to get emotionally involved with Danny, given how different they are), but I don't think it should have. Even she occasionally doesn't seem to think it should have.

I half wonder if Flack is coming at it from his own viewpoint--he cares about Danny so much that he can't fathom someone being as involved with Danny as Lindsay is wouldn't care for him deeply, too. I think if Flack suspected otherwise, he'd be mighty angry at her.

But I don't know how much his viewpoint would stand up to evidence of the contrary...which Lindsay's behaviour would certainly indicate (because I don't think Flack would be able to fathom hurting Danny, either). I agree he'd be angry if he honestly thought she didn't care about Danny, but I think the fact that he can still think she does has to indicate he's at least trying to look from her point-of-view too.

Maybe not, but I think we'd see more of a connection between them in those scenes. Instead, I see a notable distance--he doesn't look at her, kind of holds himself apart, and she doesn't really say much either.

As for her calling him by his first name, doesn't she do that for everyone?

Yeah, but I was thinking more on how many people we hear calling Flack "Don". I don't know, I know his first name has come up quite a bit, but it's just not something we hear that often. I still think the notable distance we might see in their more edgy interactions has to do with the tension of the situation (he was kind of tense in Hostage, too, and it wasn't even Danny in trouble).

I remember them both shooting down Sam's suspicion pretty quickly. :lol:

LOL, she shot it down quickly - he just kind of smirked.

I think Flack knew they were on the outs (since apparently Lindsay was originally supposed to go to the game with Danny) and took a chance to express what he's been feeling about her in a total guy way--he made a joke about it. Danny laughed for a long time, but it wasn't like Flack was going to say, right there at the game, "No, really, I can't stand her. You can do better!" It's possible he would have broached it after the game, but then that pesky murder happened, lol! Flack didn't look pleased that his time with Danny was interrupted--and Lindsay got to crash their man-date. :lol:

Danny laughed because it was funny, and I think because it wasn't the first time he'd heard something like that coming from Flack. I just think if it had been an issue with how Flack actually felt about Lindsay, it would have come up to Lindsay's face. And...well, why wouldn't he have said something like that at the game...at half-time, which was when their whole conversation started? If he'd actually wanted to say something, I really think he would have said it.

No, he's not, but overall I think respect/care for Danny trumps his personal feelings about Lindsay. I don't think he talks about her behind her back--I suspect he keeps his feelings to himself.

Flack respects and cares for Danny a lot, but it's never before extended to where he had to put up with something he didn't want to, or put himself into a situation he didn't want to be in. He's too emotionally-healthy for that. And I can't see why Lindsay would be the one exception, especially when it often seems that Danny barely cares about Lindsay (as a girlfriend). Especially when...well, the kind of teasing Lindsay puts Flack through would test even Adam's patience, if he were the one who had to put up with it.

ETA:

I've been lurking and following this thread since the discussion started in the S6 spoiler thread.

Originally posted by Kaitlyn:
I'm a stout Flack-ophile, so have to admit the D/L thing had been mostly filler for me. While enduring the long wait for S6, this has made for a definite enhancement in my viewing of old episodes. The points made by all about both Danny and Lindsay have me digging out my DVDs and watching with a different perspective. :wtf:

Haven't decided which camp I may set my tent up in yet, but loving the discussion!

Hey! LOL, we should totally form a club - Flack is tied with only one other character as my absolute favourite...actually, getting into the reasons why I really love him:

Originally Posted by Top41:
Flack is probably deserving of his own thread--his stoicism really fascinates me. He's such a tough, balanced character, which makes his friendship with vulnerable, emotional Danny all the more interesting. I often wonder why Danny doesn't irritated the hell out of Flack, but he never does--Flack seems to have an endless fount of patience when it comes to Danny.

I'm fascinated by Flack's stoicism too, but I'm more amazed that he's such a well-balanced guy while still being so completely dynamic. I love his friendship with Danny (the emotional livewire of the show) because they balance each other out a lot, but at the same time, I think Flack is actually pretty emotional deep down. Which I think is part of why he may connect with Danny. He seems to feel things a lot, but controls it so well - in a way that Mac, Stella, Hawkes, heck even Lindsay don't seem to be able to manage. We've seen each of them lose it, but until the end of Pay Up, we never really saw Flack lose it that same way, did we?

 

[CSI Cupcake]

I'm not even going to try the quote thing...too much to try and stuff in a reply! I'm up through S3 Heart of Glass so some of this is older stuff. At times I think I want to strangle Danny and at others I want to smack Lindsay. I can't fault Danny for being himself but I have to say I felt for Lindsay too. When she told him that maybe they should just do their jobs, I think she wanted more but had to go to a strictly professional relationship with him to survive...meaning there wasn't going to be any sharing or personal moments. I can understand that because when I am upset or going through something hard I can cope as long as someone doesn't ask me about every little thing and hover over me, making sure I'm okay...which is sort of what he did. My wanting to smack Lindsay comes from the fact that it seemed a little two-faced of her to expect professionalism from him yet think it okay to act in an unprofessional manner herself at times. I am pretty sure it wasn't directed at him personally because Stella got a piece of it too. He just seemed not able to let it alone. She couldn't even stare at a dead body too long without him in her ear asking if she was okay. I think it was a bit of overkill on his part, but totally Danny and I don't think she realized until then, and maybe not even at that point, that the more she pushed him away the harder he pushed back. I wonder how she would have responded to him if he had handled it in their normal teasing bantering way? Somehow I think she could have handled that better.

As for the scenes about her leaving, I think she talked to Stella the next morning and then they went together to tell Mac. I'm not a Mac/Lindsay shipper, but I did recognize something special in their relationship, and as sweet as they were together, it would have been a wonderful moment for them if she had gone to him by herself without Stella. But I digress!

It surprised me when I watched this ep the first time to find out that Mac already knew about her past. Makes me wonder if he knew before he hired her or did some digging after she arrived. I think it plays into how he treats her a bit differently than the others yet we don't know for sure. It also explains (to me anyway) why he sent her back to the lab in Manhattan Manhunt in S2 stating that he needed her full attention. I think he knew her past at that point and was afraid it would compromise her ability to handle the job at hand. I don't buy that he sent her back because she was new, as Danny said.

I wonder if Mac knowing that she was the only survivor surprised her because she did seem a bit more tentative with Mac's hug than she did with Stella's. That was odd, seeing how comfortable she and Mac had been in past episodes. But then she allowed Stella inside the walls and felt comfortable with her at that point.

I thought Danny's reaction to finding the card was very cute. He lit up like someone plugged the lights in on the Christmas tree. It's sad, really, how little it takes to get Danny going. First she shuts him down, then snaps in his direction when he cares enough to check on her anyway, and then leaves without telling him anything. But boy that card really did it for him. You could almost hear him exclaiming "she likes me" like he just pulled the last petal off the daisy:adore:. (such a girl!) And it wasn't even romantic!!! I think there's definitely some major rejection in his past to make him over-react to something as simple as a card. I can't say it was only Louie rejecting him as a teenager. I have to believe it's bigger than that because it affects everything Danny does.

We never got a scene where he found out what was going down in Montana (that I can remember) so I don't think it mattered to him what it was. I think he was so encouraged by the card that he went way beyond how a normal person would respond to the situation when Stella said Lindsay didn't sound good. Looking back at it, that card was the first personal thing Lindsay had done since their conversation in the hallway so I can see how he would be encouraged by it. But don't you think he went way overboard by rushing out to Montana as his next move? Most people would have called to thank the person for the card and gone from there. From her look when he appeared in the courtroom, I don't think he called to thank her for the card...

More tomorrow morning. I can't wait to get into Danny/Lindsay/Flack. So much fun!

 

[JellyBelly]

Okay, I'm gonna just wade right in!

There's no doubt that Danny is damaged and leaves himself wide open to getting taken advantage of. There's also no doubt that Lindsay is damaged and deals with pain by shutting down emotionally or snapping because she can't find the words. I just can't look at this and find greater fault with Lindsay than I do Danny. In fact, I can't really fault either of them. It's just who they are. Maybe it makes them incompatible in terms of 'normal functional relationships' (whatever they might be). There's no doubt their relationship could be considered dysfuntional but I'd hazard a guess that so is the relationships of half the world's popultion.

It's clear that Lindsay is in love with him, she's said as much. To me, it's also clear that Danny loves her. However, I do find it interesting that while Lindsay has admitted to being 'in love' Danny has only admitted he 'loves' her. I believe that longevity in terms of relationships is not dependent on being 'in love', in fact I actually have to admit I tend to reserve the 'in love' bit to the early part of most relationships. That's just me.

I don't really know how Danny felt about Lindsay at the end of S3/during S4. I felt from the beginning of S3 that he was a step away from being serious about her. I didn't believe that he only wanted 'drinks and laughs', but that he wanted to be with her and was ready to find out what that entailed.

I think Lindsay being snappy with him actually allowed Danny (at least in his mind) to be the bigger person, to somehow prove that he's not just a screw up. He had the opportunity to support someone who had issues that were different to his, but that could benefit from the 'Messer touch'. Mac's support of their relationship would probably support that theory in Danny's mind. The fact 'gpd' brought them together was a huge statement on Mac's part as to how he viewed them and in fact viewed Danny.

Mac's view of him has changed so much since S1. I wonder how much of that has to do with Danny 'settling down' now. Okay Mac had changed his view way before the settling down bit but I still think there's something for Danny re. having 'made it' because he's now a family man. That's one of the reasons why I don't entirely agree that Danny married Lindsay just so he could be invested in Lucy. I think that's a big part of it, and I agree that there was an element of fear on his part that Lindsay could just walk away (despite her reassurance that she wouldn't). But, I think Danny brought into Lindsay and Lucy as a unit.

I don't find his desire to be with Lindsay all that messed up to be honest. I think part of the problem in terms of believability re. Danny's feelings is the lack of clarity re. their relationship before the pregnancy reveal. We already knew Lindsay was in love, but up til that point all we knew from Danny was that he missed her. We know from tptb's perspective the early S5 lack of DL was because they were intending to at least draw it out for longer and not have them together for most of the season. The fact that we then found out they were together after all has left huge gaps that really haven't been very well explained. But, them being together indicates more than Danny just sticking with her because of the baby. No, they wouldn't be married without Lucy but the fact they'd gotten back together, no matter how messed up and lacking in terms of communication does indicate a desire on both their parts to stick with each other. Again, it could be for any number of reasons, not least driven by guilt, insecurity or maybe even love.

At this point I think they have as much chance as any couple of making it work. I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to relationships and have seen couples very much in love fall at the first hurdle and those who seem worlds apart making it work and staying together.

As for Danny no longer being the awesome sweet boyfriend in S4 and Lindsay making it about her; I think to a certain extent she had a right to. Danny deserved her anger. But, she deserved anger from him too if she hadn't made it clear she was there for him (which we have to assume, despite my thinking that she would have tried in her own way). I don't think Lindsay can be held responsible for Danny's dysfunction and inability to tell her when she's out of line. She reacts to him, he rarely reacts to her. That's his problem, and while I wish she had been a bit more understanding and handled it differently I'm also frustrated by Danny. If Lindsay didn't make any attempt to support him then why is he apologising for pushing her away? I get that it's part of his issues, but at the same time if Lindsay believes she was trying and Danny doesn't let her know he didn't think she was there then what's she to do? You can only put right things you're aware of and Danny accepting full responsibility for the blip in S4 is at least as much his fault as it's Lindsay's fault that she couldn't get over her own issues to truly be there for him. It seems to me Danny can't get over his issues to be there for her other than apparently 'pandering' to her view of their relationship.

Ooh, I haven't got a clue what I just said, I just rambled. I'm sure there's a lot more I could say but I'll come back later for that.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

Okay, I'm gonna just wade right in!

Atta girl! You really do have to get right in there.

There's no doubt that Danny is damaged and leaves himself wide open to getting taken advantage of. There's also no doubt that Lindsay is damaged and deals with pain by shutting down emotionally or snapping because she can't find the words. I just can't look at this and find greater fault with Lindsay than I do Danny.

While I agree that they are equally damaged I do think that how their individual damage affects each other is quite different. Lindsay seems to bounce back from pain after shutting down whereas Danny continues to "bleed" as someone put it. This tells me that Lindsay is the stronger of the two and as such, needs to be more aware of how her down periods affect someone like Danny. Her shutting down feeds his sense of rejection, which I don't think is all that healthy.

It's clear that Lindsay is in love with him, she's said as much. To me, it's also clear that Danny loves her. However, I do find it interesting that while Lindsay has admitted to being 'in love' Danny has only admitted he 'loves' her. I believe that longevity in terms of relationships is not dependent on being 'in love', in fact I actually have to admit I tend to reserve the 'in love' bit to the early part of most relationships. That's just me.

Over the years of being in a marriage relationship I tend to agree with this but I think it is something that happens over time. This couple is just starting out and I don't know that we have seen Danny in the "in love" state in all the time they have been together. Maybe we can call him leaving her a flower and a cereal bowl in Snow Day being him in love but as emotional as he is I almost think that S5 was Danny falling in love. Unfortunately, the show chose to show him falling in love with the baby and it made Lindsay seem like the byproduct of that, fueling the idea that he was in it just for the baby.

I don't really know how Danny felt about Lindsay at the end of S3/during S4. I felt from the beginning of S3 that he was a step away from being serious about her. I didn't believe that he only wanted 'drinks and laughs', but that he wanted to be with her and was ready to find out what that entailed.

I think he was intrigued by her and wanted to get to know her better. I'm still not sold on the idea that he wanted a serious relationship at that point.

I think Lindsay being snappy with him actually allowed Danny (at least in his mind) to be the bigger person, to somehow prove that he's not just a screw up. He had the opportunity to support someone who had issues that were different to his, but that could benefit from the 'Messer touch'. Mac's support of their relationship would probably support that theory in Danny's mind. The fact 'gpd' brought them together was a huge statement on Mac's part as to how he viewed them and in fact viewed Danny.

It did allow him the chance to focus on someone else's issues instead of his own. I think it made him feel needed, which was good for him in a way.

Mac's view of him has changed so much since S1. I wonder how much of that has to do with Danny 'settling down' now. Okay Mac had changed his view way before the settling down bit but I still think there's something for Danny re. having 'made it' because he's now a family man.

The day he chose not to remove himself from the Marty Pino case in S5 was the day I said to myself "Danny just grew up". In that moment he finally ruled his emotions and put his own personal involvement aside in order to find the truth and I think that was Mac's payoff for all the years he invested in Danny. I think Mac always thought a stable relationship would be good for Danny, would ground him and give him the sense of belonging that he needed in order to settle himself and grow up.

That's one of the reasons why I don't entirely agree that Danny married Lindsay just so he could be invested in Lucy. I think that's a big part of it, and I agree that there was an element of fear on his part that Lindsay could just walk away (despite her reassurance that she wouldn't). But, I think Danny brought into Lindsay and Lucy as a unit.

But what we saw was Danny becoming very invested in Lucy which would make the case for Lindsay being the 'package deal" part of the relationship. It could be that because the relationship with Lindsay was already established the writers thought it was more important to see Danny's journey from being someone who said to Hawkes in S2 that he was never having kids to being completely smitten with the idea by the time Lindsay went to Montana.

I don't find his desire to be with Lindsay all that messed up to be honest. I think part of the problem in terms of believability re. Danny's feelings is the lack of clarity re. their relationship before the pregnancy reveal. We already knew Lindsay was in love, but up til that point all we knew from Danny was that he missed her. We know from tptb's perspective the early S5 lack of DL was because they were intending to at least draw it out for longer and not have them together for most of the season. The fact that we then found out they were together after all has left huge gaps that really haven't been very well explained. But, them being together indicates more than Danny just sticking with her because of the baby. No, they wouldn't be married without Lucy but the fact they'd gotten back together, no matter how messed up and lacking in terms of communication does indicate a desire on both their parts to stick with each other. Again, it could be for any number of reasons, not least driven by guilt, insecurity or maybe even love.

I'm sort of glad they took the left turn with Danny and Lindsay because after 3 seasons of back and forth I think they needed to come to some conclusion with them. Unfortunately, they did create some huge gaps by choosing to use Anna's real life pregnancy in the show. It makes it hard for some to swallow because I seem to recall someone from the show saying that the intent after S4 was to take both characters in separate directions and introduce new storylines for both of them as separate characters. I'd have to go back and find the interview but I think it is out there.

At this point I think they have as much chance as any couple of making it work. I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to relationships and have seen couples very much in love fall at the first hurdle and those who seem worlds apart making it work and staying together.

I guess we shall see!!!

As for Danny no longer being the awesome sweet boyfriend in S4 and Lindsay making it about her; I think to a certain extent she had a right to. Danny deserved her anger. But, she deserved anger from him too if she hadn't made it clear she was there for him (which we have to assume, despite my thinking that she would have tried in her own way). I don't think Lindsay can be held responsible for Danny's dysfunction and inability to tell her when she's out of line. She reacts to him, he rarely reacts to her. That's his problem, and while I wish she had been a bit more understanding and handled it differently I'm also frustrated by Danny. If Lindsay didn't make any attempt to support him then why is he apologising for pushing her away? I get that it's part of his issues, but at the same time if Lindsay believes she was trying and Danny doesn't let her know he didn't think she was there then what's she to do? You can only put right things you're aware of and Danny accepting full responsibility for the blip in S4 is at least as much his fault as it's Lindsay's fault that she couldn't get over her own issues to truly be there for him. It seems to me Danny can't get over his issues to be there for her other than apparently 'pandering' to her view of their relationship.

Ooh, I haven't got a clue what I just said, I just rambled. I'm sure there's a lot more I could say but I'll come back later for that.

I think it depends a great deal on whether you think she tried to reach out to him or not in Child's Play. Since we didn't see anything more than her following him out of the morgue it's hard to say. I tend to think that she did, others say she didn't. To me, the fact that she inlisted Flack's help when she couldn't reach him said she was still trying. They could have found a number of other ways to introduce interaction between Danny and Flack but they chose to use Lindsay, which says to me that she did care and wanted to help. She could have turned the problem over to Mac and left it at that. Her choice was an important one.

When she said in PF that she tried to give him his space I took that as him letting her know in some way that he had wanted space to begin with. Her saying that she didn't know how much longer she could be alone sounds like the amount of space wasn't her choice. My impression, since he started chasing her again after RND to "talk", is that he rejected her attempt to be there for her from the beginning in CP and that her attempt to reach out to him in RND was sort of the last straw for her. Hence, she had to move on at that point. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that one.

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake:
I'm not even going to try the quote thing...too much to try and stuff in a reply! I'm up through S3 Heart of Glass so some of this is older stuff. At times I think I want to strangle Danny and at others I want to smack Lindsay. I can't fault Danny for being himself but I have to say I felt for Lindsay too. When she told him that maybe they should just do their jobs, I think she wanted more but had to go to a strictly professional relationship with him to survive...meaning there wasn't going to be any sharing or personal moments. I can understand that because when I am upset or going through something hard I can cope as long as someone doesn't ask me about every little thing and hover over me, making sure I'm okay...which is sort of what he did. My wanting to smack Lindsay comes from the fact that it seemed a little two-faced of her to expect professionalism from him yet think it okay to act in an unprofessional manner herself at times. I am pretty sure it wasn't directed at him personally because Stella got a piece of it too. He just seemed not able to let it alone. She couldn't even stare at a dead body too long without him in her ear asking if she was okay. I think it was a bit of overkill on his part, but totally Danny and I don't think she realized until then, and maybe not even at that point, that the more she pushed him away the harder he pushed back. I wonder how she would have responded to him if he had handled it in their normal teasing bantering way? Somehow I think she could have handled that better.

Hey, welcome back! It's been ages since I watched Heart of Glass, but yeah, I definitely agree about Lindsay's unprofessionalism in Oedipus Hex. That was a moment where I really had one of my Mary-Sue disconnects - because yeah she had issues, but she was being flat-out childish, and I wish Danny had called her on it - he almost came close (he kind of snapped "What's the matter with you?" when she started ranting about being given the jobs no one wants). I was able to cope better with the scene in Silent Night because Stella at least snapped back. I think the scene in Oedipus Hex would've worked better if Danny had done the same, or even done something like what he did with Aiden in "Hush" - told Lindsay that he'd do it this time, but she'd have to take the mother next time. Just something to acknowledge that Lindsay was in the wrong. [To be fair, Lindsay did seem to realize she was acting unprofessionally after he left...and ended up taking the mother next time, anyway. I just wish she'd done it because Danny had told her to do it.]

I don't fault Danny for being the caring guy he is, asking what was wrong all the time. But we know he was perfectly capable of handling things in the normal bantering way (they did just that shortly after the "mother" scene in Oedipus Hex, and Lindsay seemed fine with it), so it just seems like he really does have trouble giving her her space. That's probably just him being who he is. But it's just sad that when he started pressing about what was wrong, that was when she'd close off/get snappy.

It surprised me when I watched this ep the first time to find out that Mac already knew about her past. Makes me wonder if he knew before he hired her or did some digging after she arrived. I think it plays into how he treats her a bit differently than the others yet we don't know for sure. It also explains (to me anyway) why he sent her back to the lab in Manhattan Manhunt in S2 stating that he needed her full attention. I think he knew her past at that point and was afraid it would compromise her ability to handle the job at hand. I don't buy that he sent her back because she was new, as Danny said.

Oh, Mac definitely knew about her past before he hired her, I think. Did Danny say that he sent her back to the lab in MM because she was new? I thought it was Lindsay who felt that way - Danny just said Mac was looking out for her. But yeah, I think that may have played into her awkwardness with Mac in that Lying-Game scene in his office - btw, I totally love Mac and Lindsay's relationship too :lol:. Mac was the only person on the team who knew the full extent of her past from the very beginning, and one of the first things he did was send her back to the lab during a big case because he didn't think she could handle it (probably the reason she was so snappy about it in MM, too). She seemed kind of reluctant to show her weakness to him in the office, only reluctantly telling him that the vics were her friends, and him practically having to remind her that she was the only survivor. And then he had to reassure her that he thought she was tough - which I think may have been the important factor that made her accept his hug, and even hug back.

We never got a scene where he found out what was going down in Montana (that I can remember) so I don't think it mattered to him what it was. I think he was so encouraged by the card that he went way beyond how a normal person would respond to the situation when Stella said Lindsay didn't sound good. Looking back at it, that card was the first personal thing Lindsay had done since their conversation in the hallway so I can see how he would be encouraged by it. But don't you think he went way overboard by rushing out to Montana as his next move? Most people would have called to thank the person for the card and gone from there. From her look when he appeared in the courtroom, I don't think he called to thank her for the card...

Yeah, Danny's reaction to the card was pretty cute, but I've always thought - or hoped, rather - that at least a phone call must've passed between Lindsay and Danny before he showed up in Montana...because talk about overkill, if there hadn't been. I don't know if even Danny's desperation for approval would make him jump the gun like that. Lindsay did seem shocked when he showed up in the courtroom, but not puzzled, I think...if that makes sense. Her expression wasn't so much "How the hell did he even find me here", it was more like "I can't believe he actually showed up."(Because she kind of smiled after she saw him.) Which makes me think she knew that, on the incredibly-off-chance that Danny did decide to show up, he would've at least had some idea where to find her, and when to appear.

Originally Posted by JellyBelly:
There's no doubt that Danny is damaged and leaves himself wide open to getting taken advantage of. There's also no doubt that Lindsay is damaged and deals with pain by shutting down emotionally or snapping because she can't find the words. I just can't look at this and find greater fault with Lindsay than I do Danny. In fact, I can't really fault either of them. It's just who they are. Maybe it makes them incompatible in terms of 'normal functional relationships' (whatever they might be). There's no doubt their relationship could be considered dysfuntional but I'd hazard a guess that so is the relationships of half the world's popultion.

I really agree with this - it's hard for me to blame Lindsay or Danny more in this mess because this is just who they are, plain and simple. I find them equally culpable because who they are is what leads to their flawed actions.

But it's not just that their relationship is dysfunctional - storywise, what bugs me about D/L is that Lindsay and Danny keep going back to each other without once talking about, or even addressing their issues. I agree that lots of relationships are dysfunctional, but the people involved usually tend to address why it's dysfunctional and either work through it, or split up. I really think if they talked through it, they'd realize they work better as friends. Sometimes I even think I could get behind D/L if they talked through their issues and strengthened their friendship first. The fact that they're total opposites probably wouldn't be enough to hinder a friendship, and if they could slowly move from there to the heightened dedication that a relationship requires, D/L probably wouldn't be half as disorganized as it is now.

Outside of the story...well, IMO, D/L works in media-land and cliche-theory. All the perfect-dream-boyfriend, total-opposites, country-girl-and-city-boy-hate-each-other-at-first-then-fall-in-love...it reminds me a little of Twilight with a New York backdrop, lots more crime and fewer vampires, to be honest. Which would be fine, but if the writers are going to toss endless drama their way, they have to give us a better reason for why they're still together other than "they're in love" (which they're totally not).

It's clear that Lindsay is in love with him, she's said as much. To me, it's also clear that Danny loves her. However, I do find it interesting that while Lindsay has admitted to being 'in love' Danny has only admitted he 'loves' her. I believe that longevity in terms of relationships is not dependent on being 'in love', in fact I actually have to admit I tend to reserve the 'in love' bit to the early part of most relationships. That's just me.

I don't really know how Danny felt about Lindsay at the end of S3/during S4. I felt from the beginning of S3 that he was a step away from being serious about her. I didn't believe that he only wanted 'drinks and laughs', but that he wanted to be with her and was ready to find out what that entailed.

It's very true about "love", rather than the more-idealized "in-love", lending more to the strength and long-lasting-ness of relationships...that's actually interesting, that Lindsay (the one who's basically a teenager in heart/mind - where "in-love" is the be-all, end-all) is the only one who's in love.

And yeah, I think Danny really cares about Lindsay in his own way, but not so much in a romantic way, from what I've seen. I mean, he's always so much more concerned about her as a friend than he's ever been when she was his girlfriend/wife. Because at the end of S2, beginning of S3, he seemed to care about her as a friend, while still enjoying flirtatious banter with her. In S3, I really think he only decided to get serious when Lindsay implied she didn't want to get serious...and even then, most of the concern he showed her in S3 were perfectly within the "friend"-boundaries. I think Lindsay might've (understandably) gotten the impression that he wanted her in a romantic sense from his concern. Maybe on some level he did, but from that point on, he was kind of reacting to her romantic overtures, but while they were still in that mostly-friend zone, he was very caring. The moment she hit girlfriend status (season 4), he shut down.

As for Danny no longer being the awesome sweet boyfriend in S4 and Lindsay making it about her; I think to a certain extent she had a right to. Danny deserved her anger. But, she deserved anger from him too if she hadn't made it clear she was there for him (which we have to assume, despite my thinking that she would have tried in her own way). I don't think Lindsay can be held responsible for Danny's dysfunction and inability to tell her when she's out of line. She reacts to him, he rarely reacts to her. That's his problem, and while I wish she had been a bit more understanding and handled it differently I'm also frustrated by Danny. If Lindsay didn't make any attempt to support him then why is he apologising for pushing her away? I get that it's part of his issues, but at the same time if Lindsay believes she was trying and Danny doesn't let her know he didn't think she was there then what's she to do? You can only put right things you're aware of and Danny accepting full responsibility for the blip in S4 is at least as much his fault as it's Lindsay's fault that she couldn't get over her own issues to truly be there for him. It seems to me Danny can't get over his issues to be there for her other than apparently 'pandering' to her view of their relationship.

Ooh, I haven't got a clue what I just said, I just rambled. I'm sure there's a lot more I could say but I'll come back later for that.

No, this made so much sense! It's so true - Lindsay picked the wrong time to jump on Danny in RND, but she's the one who seems interested in finding out what she's doing wrong, trying to navigate the relationship in a way that won't totally destroy any future interaction they may have. This kind of goes with my view of her being the clearly-more-invested one in the relationship - it's almost like Danny just wants the relationship, without having any interest in it or really thinking about what it entails.

... Oh wow, this was so long :alienblush:

 

[Top41]

A million things to reply to! Expect length! :lol:

I really think Lindsay has always tried to get the message across that when she shuts Danny out, it's not about him specifically. Even at the end of S4, I don't think it was about not wanting to talk to Danny, it was about needing to regroup - if not, she probably wouldn't have been able to interact with him even as a coworker.

Yeah, but what Danny heard was, "I've fallen in love with you and I have to find a way to get over that because you're no good for me/anyone." Again... this is Danny Messer. That was probably the worst thing anyone could say to him. And while Lindsay probably didn't mean it to be quite that harsh, I do think she wanted to hurt him, because she was hurting. And given all that he was already going through, that just seems really cruel to me.

The coffee was a band-aid (yeah, he only asked if she wanted some), but it was more than that; he was trying to get back into her good graces over the birthday thing even in DOA for a Day. I agree band-aids aren't much, but they're a start...which is why I think if Lindsay just wanted things to be normal again, she would've taken his peace offerings. Of course, I think she did at least partly want the caring-Danny back, that's just natural - but I don't think she was just willing to accept him back without having dealt with his issues.

I think she had decided she was pissed and nothing he did short of groveling--which he basically did three episodes later--was going to appease her.

I agree the speech was kind of lacking in explicit concern (word-wise)...but that's a large part of where I see Lindsay at fault. She really shouldn't have waited to let him know she was concerned until he'd made her angry, because in general, lashing out just looks like lashing out, no matter how concerned you are. I think the speech was all about her because she was on the defense - Danny was so obviously not dealing well, and then he was implying that she was the one with the problem.

Well, she kind of was once she took that attitude with him. Shoving folders into his hands in front of a colleague? Being short with him at work? I mean, she did have an issue with him, and rather than expressing whatever concern she may have had, she just started taking out her anger on him. I guess that's why I have a hard time seeing it as concern--she didn't just withdraw, she was being mean to him.

He really did. :lol: It was okay in Happily Never After, and even toward the end of the season, but between All in the Family and Right Next Door, I remember repeatedly being hit with the desire to just toss him into the nearest shower (in, um, a mostly-non-smutty way ). Especially in DOA for a Day he looked unshaven and his clothes were a little haphazard...I always thought they did it that way on purpose, to kind of show what he was going through without making constant references to Ruben.

I remember his hair getting long, but Danny always looks kind of disheveled, with his shirts often half tucked in and his hair kind of spiky/messy, but it makes sense that he'd be too wrapped up in his grieving to worry about looking pretty.

Aside from the obvious physical signs, I think Lindsay had to have an idea of what was going on beneath the surface (if nothing else, she had to have gotten some kind of explanation for AitF, and I think she knows Danny well enough to figure out why he wasn't able to turn Rikki in).

She had to have, yeah, which is why I have a hard time excusing her treatment of him. Even if she wasn't going to him/talking to him, it was pretty obvious she was hearing things second hand--that's how she knew to come to the morgue in "Child's Play."

True, I don't think he's actually given much thought to why he's staying with Lindsay since she told him about the baby. It's frustrating, because this is definitely one of the cases where things would've been better had he just stopped and thought for a second. But it's kind of a pattern with Danny that drives me crazy...he wasn't any more emotionally invested with girlfriend!Lindsay in Personal Foul than he is now with wife!Lindsay (imo), so the phone call thing just annoyed me.

That phone call just struck me as being born out of all of his insecurities and nothing to do with what he really wanted. He missed her friendship and the way she was treating him made him sad. So he said what she needed to hear, because as we've seen, Danny is good at that.

Yeah, she's always just saying her piece and then leaving (think this might partly come back to how she'd probably like to be dealt with herself after she's gotten big news - she prefers people would give her space to think on it for a while). But that scene in the Triangle was a little weird, especially the way she put her hand on his shoulder when she said no. To me it read like she was trying to reassure him that he didn't have to marry her to stay in the baby's life - she seemed to assume that he'd be relieved by her no, and then got confused when he just seemed hurt.

She said no to his marriage proposal and didn't expect him to be hurt? Either she doesn't know Danny at all or she's a complete idiot if that's really what she thought. I mean, I get not being in touch with emotional stuff, but still, I don't see how she could have known Danny for three and a half years and not think that would hurt him or that he would take it personally.

I definitely see how that would've been frightening ... if she thought he wouldn't want to be involved, I could totally see Lindsay moving back to Montana. But I also think that one fear could've/should've been a catalyst to make Danny actually listen to Lindsay when she was showing him she cared, rather than a reason to dive into something he didn't want, and mess things up further between Lindsay and himself. She specifically told him in that episode that he didn't have to marry her because she wasn't going anywhere...which he chose to ignore.

Yeah, but what has she ever done to make him believe her? Their relationship has always been back and forth and now there's a baby in the mix. A baby Danny clearly wanted very, very much. I can absolutely see why he wouldn't believe her, the way she's yo-yo'ed him around for the last few seasons. A secure person might not have believed her, and Danny is not at all secure.

He does have a good sense of right and wrong, that's why I thought it so significant that he thought the guy deserved to die. There's justice and there's vengeance - and Flack was personally involved, but he more than anyone should've known the difference. I think he did, actually know the difference...it's why he looked kind of drained when he met Danny outside of the boiler room. He knows it was basically murder.

Yeah, he did, and he knew he was going to have to live with it, too. Seeing Danny right after doing that--the one person he's always gone out of his way to protect and shield--must have been hard, too. If it had been the other way around and Danny had lost Lindsay, no way would Flack have let Danny murder the killer. He wouldn't have wanted Danny to have to live with that down the line. So it will be interesting to see how he lives with it himself.

I think the off-putting part of her personality isn't so much about her playing the victim card - it's not that she acts like others owe her, it's that they let her think they owe her. Which is totally bad Mary-Sue writing...playing the victim card is usually Mary Sue's get-out-of-jail-free card.

Exactly! Seeing her not held accountable for her behavior seems like the height of Mary Sue-dom for me.

I don't think the writers intended to vilify Danny either, although I do still suspect they only maintained in interviews that Danny wasn't cheating to stop the D/L part of their fanbase from collapsing/imploding-with-rage (um, there are some rabid fans out there :wtf. It's annoying, because I've always thought it was perfectly clear that D/L were so in an off-again phase around RND, but if they hadn't been writing Lindsay as the obviously-injured party(TM), that would've been clearer. It's why I think they should've added scenes like Lindsay maybe approaching Danny about his skipped shift, and showing how that would disintegrate into confrontation - show us examples of how awful Lindsay was at reaching out. Because I think she tried, but her attempts (like they usually do) would've flubbed, and pushed Danny further away.

It would have made a huge difference to me in who I sympathized with if we'd seen her trying to reach out to him and getting shot down on a few occasions. But I see that scene in "Child's Play" as her letting herself off the hook--Danny didn't want to talk then, so she'd wait until he came to her. He didn't, and so she got mad at him, which is so not fair and takes away any sympathy I might have otherwise had for her.

I don't remember, I think his girlfriend might've come over at that point. But for Lindsay, I don't think it would've seemed weird if he either hadn't answered or kept diverting her after she pressed. It would've seemed like he didn't appreciate the teasing...which, if he really didn't, I think would've been a message he'd be more than fine with sending.

Eh, maybe, maybe not. I thought his "I don't like where you're going with this, Monroe" made it pretty clear that he didn't appreciate he line of questioning.

Lindsay seems to be oddly formal with a lot of people (I remember how weird I found it when she called Peyton "Doctor Driscoll" in S3), so I think that tends to reflect back on her, since most people just call her Lindsay. It's definitely not a special nickname of Flack's for her - Hawkes and Danny call her Linds on occasion. I think I've heard Stella call her that once or twice. But...well, Danny and Hawkes are kind of close to Lindsay. And Flack, who'd probably have that extra reason to stick with the far-more-formal Monroe, doesn't, which is why I find it telling.

...

Yeah, but I was thinking more on how many people we hear calling Flack "Don". I don't know, I know his first name has come up quite a bit, but it's just not something we hear that often. I still think the notable distance we might see in their more edgy interactions has to do with the tension of the situation (he was kind of tense in Hostage, too, and it wasn't even Danny in trouble).

Thinking about the name thing more, I have a feeling it comes from Danny. I'm sure Danny has referred to Flack as "Don" in front of Lindsay and Lindsay as "Linds" (once he dropped the annoying "Montana" nickname") in front of Flack. I still see their connection being Danny.

I'm still not sure it would've been much of an issue even with Danny's presence, but yeah, it would've been kind of nice to at least see Flack acknowledge what Lindsay put Danny through. It's never made much sense that he just...well, doesn't. I mean, I have my reasons for why he doesn't, but they're not entirely supported by the show, so...

Agreed. This is the guy who pushed a cop who was just mouthing off to Danny in "On the Job"! I can't really see Flack in any way being okay with how Lindsay was treating Danny in season three; he's so protective of Danny. It's never made sense to me, really, why he never said anything.

The PF joke didn't really seem like Flack hesitated before saying it, it just sort of came out, which is why I think Flack has totally said things like that to Danny before. Danny didn't seem surprised by Flack saying it, he just laughed, and I think it would've showed more if this was the first time Danny was hearing about any irritation Flack had. I agree Flack shields Danny from a lot, but those are usually things that would hurt him. And I really doubt he'd be hurt by Flack being mean to Lindsay (if Flack wanted to be mean), and I think Flack knows that. If nothing else, Lindsay is more than able to take hazing (she did from Danny), Danny knows that. Moreover, Danny never seems to care if suspects are bitchy to Lindsay, I can't see him caring if his best friend is. Finally...well, even if Flack were being mean to Lindsay behind Danny's back, I really can't see it ever getting back to Danny. It's not like she would tattle.

I think Flack's an honorable guy overall, and I think he generally minds his own business. I doubt he goes out of his way to express displeasure to Danny or Lindsay, but when you don't like your best friend's significant others, comments like the one Flack made in PF just kind of...slip out.

But I don't know how much his viewpoint would stand up to evidence of the contrary...which Lindsay's behaviour would certainly indicate (because I don't think Flack would be able to fathom hurting Danny, either). I agree he'd be angry if he honestly thought she didn't care about Danny, but I think the fact that he can still think she does has to indicate he's at least trying to look from her point-of-view too.

Maybe. I just kind of think he bites his tongue around her most of the time. I'm sure he tries to like her for Danny's sake. I just get an underlying impatience/dislike from him a lot of the times with her. Less so recently, but earlier on, there was stuff that indicated to me he didn't care for her that much. I think he's kind of accepted her presence by now... but of course, now and then that snark sneaks out (like in PF).

LOL, she shot it down quickly - he just kind of smirked.

Like, "You've gotta be kidding me!" :lol:

Danny laughed because it was funny, and I think because it wasn't the first time he'd heard something like that coming from Flack. I just think if it had been an issue with how Flack actually felt about Lindsay, it would have come up to Lindsay's face. And...well, why wouldn't he have said something like that at the game...at half-time, which was when their whole conversation started? If he'd actually wanted to say something, I really think he would have said it.

Maybe, maybe not. They were in a pretty public, loud place...not the venue for a heart-to-heart. And maybe he had some hope that Danny and Lindsay were actually over--I think he was fishing a bit with that comment, hoping Danny would give him some clue as to where he and Lindsay actually stood.

Flack respects and cares for Danny a lot, but it's never before extended to where he had to put up with something he didn't want to, or put himself into a situation he didn't want to be in. He's too emotionally-healthy for that. And I can't see why Lindsay would be the one exception, especially when it often seems that Danny barely cares about Lindsay (as a girlfriend). Especially when...well, the kind of teasing Lindsay puts Flack through would test even Adam's patience, if he were the one who had to put up with it.

Flack puts up with a lot for/from Danny. I can't imagine that not extending to Lindsay.

I'm fascinated by Flack's stoicism too, but I'm more amazed that he's such a well-balanced guy while still being so completely dynamic. I love his friendship with Danny (the emotional livewire of the show) because they balance each other out a lot, but at the same time, I think Flack is actually pretty emotional deep down. Which I think is part of why he may connect with Danny. He seems to feel things a lot, but controls it so well - in a way that Mac, Stella, Hawkes, heck even Lindsay don't seem to be able to manage. We've seen each of them lose it, but until the end of Pay Up, we never really saw Flack lose it that same way, did we?

Eddie once said Danny was Flack's id. I can totally see that--the stuff Danny does is stuff Flack might like to do, if he wasn't so in control.

 

[Top41]

...And Part Two:

My wanting to smack Lindsay comes from the fact that it seemed a little two-faced of her to expect professionalism from him yet think it okay to act in an unprofessional manner herself at times. I am pretty sure it wasn't directed at him personally because Stella got a piece of it too. He just seemed not able to let it alone. She couldn't even stare at a dead body too long without him in her ear asking if she was okay. I think it was a bit of overkill on his part, but totally Danny and I don't think she realized until then, and maybe not even at that point, that the more she pushed him away the harder he pushed back. I wonder how she would have responded to him if he had handled it in their normal teasing bantering way? Somehow I think she could have handled that better.

Exactly! Lindsay isn't professional, but she pulls the professional card when she feels like it. It's just so hypocritical. I agree that Lindsay's bad behavior isn't singularly directed at Danny, any more than his concern was exclusive for her--he's asked the other characters how they're doing, too, when he sees they're down.

It surprised me when I watched this ep the first time to find out that Mac already knew about her past. Makes me wonder if he knew before he hired her or did some digging after she arrived. I think it plays into how he treats her a bit differently than the others yet we don't know for sure. It also explains (to me anyway) why he sent her back to the lab in Manhattan Manhunt in S2 stating that he needed her full attention. I think he knew her past at that point and was afraid it would compromise her ability to handle the job at hand. I don't buy that he sent her back because she was new, as Danny said.

I think Mac knew before he hired her for sure. It still feels like a Mary Sue thing that the gruff, tough leader of the lab who doesn't let anything fly coddles Lindsay though. She's an adult--she should be treated like one.

I thought Danny's reaction to finding the card was very cute. He lit up like someone plugged the lights in on the Christmas tree. It's sad, really, how little it takes to get Danny going. First she shuts him down, then snaps in his direction when he cares enough to check on her anyway, and then leaves without telling him anything. But boy that card really did it for him. You could almost hear him exclaiming "she likes me" like he just pulled the last petal off the daisy:adore:. (such a girl!) And it wasn't even romantic!!! I think there's definitely some major rejection in his past to make him over-react to something as simple as a card. I can't say it was only Louie rejecting him as a teenager. I have to believe it's bigger than that because it affects everything Danny does.

Danny is totally the girl in the relationship. :lol: But yeah, it's kind of sad, too, because any little crumb of affection thrown his way just gets him to light up. He was the same way with Mac at the end of "Outside Man" when Mac praised him. He was totally gutted by the case, but Mac's praise just made him smile. He's kind of childishly sweet that way.

We never got a scene where he found out what was going down in Montana (that I can remember) so I don't think it mattered to him what it was. I think he was so encouraged by the card that he went way beyond how a normal person would respond to the situation when Stella said Lindsay didn't sound good. Looking back at it, that card was the first personal thing Lindsay had done since their conversation in the hallway so I can see how he would be encouraged by it. But don't you think he went way overboard by rushing out to Montana as his next move? Most people would have called to thank the person for the card and gone from there. From her look when he appeared in the courtroom, I don't think he called to thank her for the card...

Oh, of course it was, but that's Danny. He went overboard when Hawkes was framed in "Raising Shane." I think Danny would go to the ends of the earth for the people he cares about, which is why I always want to see Danny being there for Flack a little more often!

There's no doubt that Danny is damaged and leaves himself wide open to getting taken advantage of. There's also no doubt that Lindsay is damaged and deals with pain by shutting down emotionally or snapping because she can't find the words. I just can't look at this and find greater fault with Lindsay than I do Danny. In fact, I can't really fault either of them. It's just who they are. Maybe it makes them incompatible in terms of 'normal functional relationships' (whatever they might be). There's no doubt their relationship could be considered dysfuntional but I'd hazard a guess that so is the relationships of half the world's popultion.

Yeah, but they don't communicate either, which doesn't bode well for them in the long term in my mind.

It's clear that Lindsay is in love with him, she's said as much. To me, it's also clear that Danny loves her. However, I do find it interesting that while Lindsay has admitted to being 'in love' Danny has only admitted he 'loves' her. I believe that longevity in terms of relationships is not dependent on being 'in love', in fact I actually have to admit I tend to reserve the 'in love' bit to the early part of most relationships. That's just me.

True, but Danny has not once, once, once looked at Lindsay and said, "I'm so in love with her" or "I love her so much" or some less cheesy version of that. :lol: It's always seemed to come from a place of fear for him--fear of not having her/the baby in his life.

I think Lindsay being snappy with him actually allowed Danny (at least in his mind) to be the bigger person, to somehow prove that he's not just a screw up. He had the opportunity to support someone who had issues that were different to his, but that could benefit from the 'Messer touch'. Mac's support of their relationship would probably support that theory in Danny's mind. The fact 'gpd' brought them together was a huge statement on Mac's part as to how he viewed them and in fact viewed Danny.

I'm sure that was hugely flattering to Danny that Mac said that, yeah. Mac was really being a father figure to Danny in that scene--even if I think he was giving him bad advice. As for the snappiness, Danny shouldn't have to put up with abuse to prove he's not a screw up. I can see how Danny would think he should, but realistically, no, he shouldn't.

Mac's view of him has changed so much since S1. I wonder how much of that has to do with Danny 'settling down' now. Okay Mac had changed his view way before the settling down bit but I still think there's something for Danny re. having 'made it' because he's now a family man. That's one of the reasons why I don't entirely agree that Danny married Lindsay just so he could be invested in Lucy. I think that's a big part of it, and I agree that there was an element of fear on his part that Lindsay could just walk away (despite her reassurance that she wouldn't). But, I think Danny brought into Lindsay and Lucy as a unit.

Sure, Danny wanted a family. He wanted Mac's approval, and he wanted to do the right thing--to the point of desperation. But I still don't think any of that speaks to being in love with Lindsay.

I don't find his desire to be with Lindsay all that messed up to be honest. I think part of the problem in terms of believability re. Danny's feelings is the lack of clarity re. their relationship before the pregnancy reveal. We already knew Lindsay was in love, but up til that point all we knew from Danny was that he missed her. We know from tptb's perspective the early S5 lack of DL was because they were intending to at least draw it out for longer and not have them together for most of the season. The fact that we then found out they were together after all has left huge gaps that really haven't been very well explained. But, them being together indicates more than Danny just sticking with her because of the baby. No, they wouldn't be married without Lucy but the fact they'd gotten back together, no matter how messed up and lacking in terms of communication does indicate a desire on both their parts to stick with each other. Again, it could be for any number of reasons, not least driven by guilt, insecurity or maybe even love.

There are definitely gaps within the story which make it somewhat hard to discuss, yeah. But at the same time, what we have seen on screen paints Danny as a man very, very happy about this accidental pregnancy, and very desperate to have the baby in his life. I think he saw this as something of an instant family, which offers him a kind of security (or that he hopes will offer him a kind of security) that he's never had otherwise. Again, none of that speaks to a love of Lindsay so much as a deep insecurity and fear of abandonment on his part.

As for Danny no longer being the awesome sweet boyfriend in S4 and Lindsay making it about her; I think to a certain extent she had a right to. Danny deserved her anger.

I disagree with that. He didn't deserve her anger--he deserved her compassion and sympathy, in the same way she deserved and got his in season three.

But, she deserved anger from him too if she hadn't made it clear she was there for him (which we have to assume, despite my thinking that she would have tried in her own way). I don't think Lindsay can be held responsible for Danny's dysfunction and inability to tell her when she's out of line. She reacts to him, he rarely reacts to her. That's his problem, and while I wish she had been a bit more understanding and handled it differently I'm also frustrated by Danny. If Lindsay didn't make any attempt to support him then why is he apologising for pushing her away? I get that it's part of his issues, but at the same time if Lindsay believes she was trying and Danny doesn't let her know he didn't think she was there then what's she to do? You can only put right things you're aware of and Danny accepting full responsibility for the blip in S4 is at least as much his fault as it's Lindsay's fault that she couldn't get over her own issues to truly be there for him. It seems to me Danny can't get over his issues to be there for her other than apparently 'pandering' to her view of their relationship.

That's a very good point--he should have told her that he needed her to reach out to him, though I think that's a hard thing to say. Still, by crawling back to her he did send the message that she was right and he was wrong. That's Danny--he's such a doormat sometimes, which is really frustrating. But you do have a great point there, and something that adds yet another unhealthy dimension to their relationship.

While I agree that they are equally damaged I do think that how their individual damage affects each other is quite different. Lindsay seems to bounce back from pain after shutting down whereas Danny continues to "bleed" as someone put it. This tells me that Lindsay is the stronger of the two and as such, needs to be more aware of how her down periods affect someone like Danny. Her shutting down feeds his sense of rejection, which I don't think is all that healthy.

Yeah, it's a big unhealthy cycle. I think Lindsay is definitely the stronger of the two--Danny has always struck me as someone who is incredibly emotionally fragile.

Over the years of being in a marriage relationship I tend to agree with this but I think it is something that happens over time. This couple is just starting out and I don't know that we have seen Danny in the "in love" state in all the time they have been together. Maybe we can call him leaving her a flower and a cereal bowl in Snow Day being him in love but as emotional as he is I almost think that S5 was Danny falling in love. Unfortunately, the show chose to show him falling in love with the baby and it made Lindsay seem like the byproduct of that, fueling the idea that he was in it just for the baby.

I think the cereal/daisy was just more typical Danny sweetness--he's a very caring guy. And I think in season five, Danny fell in love with the baby/idea of being a father more than he did with Lindsay. I think he also fell in love with the idea of having a family, which encompassed Lindsay... but that's still different than falling in love with her as a person.

But what we saw was Danny becoming very invested in Lucy which would make the case for Lindsay being the 'package deal" part of the relationship. It could be that because the relationship with Lindsay was already established the writers thought it was more important to see Danny's journey from being someone who said to Hawkes in S2 that he was never having kids to being completely smitten with the idea by the time Lindsay went to Montana.

But the relationship never was really established--it's always been a back and forth yo-yo thing. And I think if the writers had really wanted to establish them as a couple, they would have done so at the end of PF by having Danny tell Lindsay that he loved her, too. She'd said it twice, he didn't say it at all. There was nothing after that ep either until Belknap getting pregnant literally forced the writers' hands.

I'm sort of glad they took the left turn with Danny and Lindsay because after 3 seasons of back and forth I think they needed to come to some conclusion with them. Unfortunately, they did create some huge gaps by choosing to use Anna's real life pregnancy in the show. It makes it hard for some to swallow because I seem to recall someone from the show saying that the intent after S4 was to take both characters in separate directions and introduce new storylines for both of them as separate characters. I'd have to go back and find the interview but I think it is out there.

It felt like they were naturally reaching a conclusion there in season four and I know the original plans for season five were a) to bring Rikki back and b) introduce a new love interest for Lindsay.

I think it depends a great deal on whether you think she tried to reach out to him or not in Child's Play. Since we didn't see anything more than her following him out of the morgue it's hard to say. I tend to think that she did, others say she didn't. To me, the fact that she inlisted Flack's help when she couldn't reach him said she was still trying. They could have found a number of other ways to introduce interaction between Danny and Flack but they chose to use Lindsay, which says to me that she did care and wanted to help. She could have turned the problem over to Mac and left it at that. Her choice was an important one.

She cared, just not enough to put her own issues aside and really be there for Danny.

When she said in PF that she tried to give him his space I took that as him letting her know in some way that he had wanted space to begin with. Her saying that she didn't know how much longer she could be alone sounds like the amount of space wasn't her choice. My impression, since he started chasing her again after RND to "talk", is that he rejected her attempt to be there for her from the beginning in CP and that her attempt to reach out to him in RND was sort of the last straw for her. Hence, she had to move on at that point. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that one.

I never got any of that from that line--I think she decided to give him space all on her own. That's a lot of off screen assumptions--I think she was simply waiting for him to come to her and it never happened. I can't imagine him saying he needed space because that's just not a Danny thing to do.

Hey, welcome back! It's been ages since I watched Heart of Glass, but yeah, I definitely agree about Lindsay's unprofessionalism in Oedipus Hex. That was a moment where I really had one of my Mary-Sue disconnects - because yeah she had issues, but she was being flat-out childish, and I wish Danny had called her on it - he almost came close (he kind of snapped "What's the matter with you?" when she started ranting about being given the jobs no one wants). I was able to cope better with the scene in Silent Night because Stella at least snapped back. I think the scene in Oedipus Hex would've worked better if Danny had done the same, or even done something like what he did with Aiden in "Hush" - told Lindsay that he'd do it this time, but she'd have to take the mother next time. Just something to acknowledge that Lindsay was in the wrong. [To be fair, Lindsay did seem to realize she was acting unprofessionally after he left...and ended up taking the mother next time, anyway. I just wish she'd done it because Danny had told her to do it.]

I wish we'd seen Danny stand up to her, too! Danny just shuts down in the face of people he cares about getting upset with/mad at him, and I think that's what happened here. It felt like her taking advantage of him though, and that's always grated for me.

I
Yeah, Danny's reaction to the card was pretty cute, but I've always thought - or hoped, rather - that at least a phone call must've passed between Lindsay and Danny before he showed up in Montana...because talk about overkill, if there hadn't been.

I always thought that came from the call to Stella. I didn't get the sense that Danny and Lindsay had talked since she left town.

But it's not just that their relationship is dysfunctional - storywise, what bugs me about D/L is that Lindsay and Danny keep going back to each other without once talking about, or even addressing their issues. I agree that lots of relationships are dysfunctional, but the people involved usually tend to address why it's dysfunctional and either work through it, or split up. I really think if they talked through it, they'd realize they work better as friends. Sometimes I even think I could get behind D/L if they talked through their issues and strengthened their friendship first. The fact that they're total opposites probably wouldn't be enough to hinder a friendship, and if they could slowly move from there to the heightened dedication that a relationship requires, D/L probably wouldn't be half as disorganized as it is now.

Agreed, communication, or lack thereof, is the real killer here. It's hard to believe these two are supposed to be adults sometimes! Their relationship is just so juvenile and unrealistic much of the time.

Outside of the story...well, IMO, D/L works in media-land and cliche-theory. All the perfect-dream-boyfriend, total-opposites, country-girl-and-city-boy-hate-each-other-at-first-then-fall-in-love...it reminds me a little of Twilight with a New York backdrop, lots more crime and fewer vampires, to be honest. Which would be fine, but if the writers are going to toss endless drama their way, they have to give us a better reason for why they're still together other than "they're in love" (which they're totally not).

Exactly! It's just one big mish mash of cliches, to which I say, "Ugh!" :lol:

OK, let's see how many characters this massive thing is! 36,983! Part one and Part two indeed....

 

[Maya316]

LOL, I want to see if I can at least try to fit this in one post this time :lol:

Yeah, but what Danny heard was, "I've fallen in love with you and I have to find a way to get over that because you're no good for me/anyone." Again... this is Danny Messer. That was probably the worst thing anyone could say to him. And while Lindsay probably didn't mean it to be quite that harsh, I do think she wanted to hurt him, because she was hurting. And given all that he was already going through, that just seems really cruel to me.

Danny got the wrong message, like he usually does when people start being harsh with him (Mac, Lindsay, even Stella in the Blue Flu episode). It still doesn't mean those people don't care. Only he seems to be more willing to accept the caring message from Mac than he is from Lindsay. If Lindsay was yelling just to be mean, she could (and I think would) have said meaner things. And if she wasn't yelling just to be mean...there's simply no other reason other than that she cared, and was trying to get the message across.

I think she had decided she was pissed and nothing he did short of groveling--which he basically did three episodes later--was going to appease her.

In which case there certainly wouldn't have been any reason to start shouting in the office, let alone go off on a rant that had nothing to do with her birthday or lunch. Plus, he was practically groveling in DOA for a Day anyway, it would've been problem solved.

Well, she kind of was once she took that attitude with him. Shoving folders into his hands in front of a colleague? Being short with him at work? I mean, she did have an issue with him, and rather than expressing whatever concern she may have had, she just started taking out her anger on him. I guess that's why I have a hard time seeing it as concern--she didn't just withdraw, she was being mean to him.

There's being mean, and there's purposely holding back/being short because you're otherwise not going to be able to stop yourself from being mean. It was obvious Lindsay was set off in the office because this is what she'd spent the entire episode doing; holding back. I don't think she intended to rant, but it was clear that if she was planning on saying something, she had no intention of saying it at work. If her attitude was a problem, it wasn't the major one - and I think Danny was aware of that. He didn't just shut down during rant, he looked guilty from the moment Lindsay went off.

That phone call just struck me as being born out of all of his insecurities and nothing to do with what he really wanted. He missed her friendship and the way she was treating him made him sad. So he said what she needed to hear, because as we've seen, Danny is good at that.

It solved nothing, though, and I'd probably have been more receptive to it if Danny was actually interested in the relationship itself, rather than just in the idea of being in a relationship. He could've at least told her what she'd done wrong, because it practically seemed like she was asking.

She said no to his marriage proposal and didn't expect him to be hurt? Either she doesn't know Danny at all or she's a complete idiot if that's really what she thought. I mean, I get not being in touch with emotional stuff, but still, I don't see how she could have known Danny for three and a half years and not think that would hurt him or that he would take it personally.

She didn't expect him to be only hurt, I think. She might've expected a little hurt (maybe that's why she walked away, to give him time to get over it). And I don't know how well she knows his insecurities or not, but the guy obviously didn't want to marry her and it showed. If she concluded that relief should've quickly outweighed the rejection...that doesn't exactly sound like the most unreasonable conclusion she could make.

Yeah, but what has she ever done to make him believe her? Their relationship has always been back and forth and now there's a baby in the mix. A baby Danny clearly wanted very, very much. I can absolutely see why he wouldn't believe her, the way she's yo-yo'ed him around for the last few seasons. A secure person might not have believed her, and Danny is not at all secure.

Her finding him when the baby started to kick? (Before he asked her to, presumably) Her allowing him to hover over her stomach reading a comic book while she was working...and however cute-ish a scene it was, how annoying would that have been, really? I get that he was afraid, but honestly, if the fact that he's not interested in her (as a girlfriend) wasn't his first clue that marriage was the worst way to go, the fact that he's still holding behaviour from the last two years against her, should at least have been the second.

It would have made a huge difference to me in who I sympathized with if we'd seen her trying to reach out to him and getting shot down on a few occasions. But I see that scene in "Child's Play" as her letting herself off the hook--Danny didn't want to talk then, so she'd wait until he came to her. He didn't, and so she got mad at him, which is so not fair and takes away any sympathy I might have otherwise had for her.

As it is, I saw Lindsay support him, call him, and get nothing back ... which makes me sympathetic, but I can see how that would also put her on the "definitely-in-the-right" side of the fight if we're looking solely at writers'-intent and Lindsay's Mary-Sue-ness. She gets to do nothing in terms of face-to-face support, and still look like the injured party. It bugs me, but there it is. I just think it would've worked better - in terms of making it clear that D/L were "off-again" - if we'd at least seen a good example of why Lindsay wasn't getting anything back: because she's crap at reaching out. I think if she'd tried, she would've messed it up, gotten into a fight with Danny - maybe during which we actually saw them split up - and pushed him further away.

Eh, maybe, maybe not. I thought his "I don't like where you're going with this, Monroe" made it pretty clear that he didn't appreciate he line of questioning.

LOL, it would've been even clearer if he'd told her to quit it, or even changed the subject :lol: I think Lindsay would definitely have gotten that message, and it wouldn't have happened again.

Thinking about the name thing more, I have a feeling it comes from Danny. I'm sure Danny has referred to Flack as "Don" in front of Lindsay and Lindsay as "Linds" (once he dropped the annoying "Montana" nickname") in front of Flack. I still see their connection being Danny.

I can't remember, to be honest...I thought Danny only started calling her Linds in Season 4, but he may have done it front of Flack at some point. Their base is definitely Danny, but their better interactions, imo, are the ones that aren't centred on him.

Agreed. This is the guy who pushed a cop who was just mouthing off to Danny in "On the Job"! I can't really see Flack in any way being okay with how Lindsay was treating Danny in season three; he's so protective of Danny. It's never made sense to me, really, why he never said anything.

I could be fine with him just not saying anything .. at least that would be him giving her the silent treatment, which is some sort of acknowledgment of what she's done. Instead, he's friendlier/more personable with her than even Mac or Stella tend to be at times, and during episodes where Danny and Lindsay are on the outs (or should be on the outs), it just gets...well, strange. Interesting, but strange.

I think Flack's an honorable guy overall, and I think he generally minds his own business. I doubt he goes out of his way to express displeasure to Danny or Lindsay, but when you don't like your best friend's significant others, comments like the one Flack made in PF just kind of...slip out.

Oh, he's totally a gentleman. But I think remarks like the PF one have slipped out before, I don't think it's the first time he's made it. It's not even going out of his way to express displeasure, it probably just happens - but that's also why I think it was a relatively light remark. If it was supposed to conceal a serious issue Flack has, I think it would have come up to Lindsay's face, in a way she couldn't mistake. It's not like he hasn't been snarky to her before; it's not in a mean way, but Lindsay senses hostility even when it's not actually there. I think she would've picked up on something.

Maybe. I just kind of think he bites his tongue around her most of the time. I'm sure he tries to like her for Danny's sake. I just get an underlying impatience/dislike from him a lot of the times with her. Less so recently, but earlier on, there was stuff that indicated to me he didn't care for her that much. I think he's kind of accepted her presence by now... but of course, now and then that snark sneaks out (like in PF).

He doesn't bite his tongue around anyone else...and lol, he's plenty snarky to her. Like she is to him.

Like, "You've gotta be kidding me!" :lol:

Yes! :lol: I thought it was a cute scene - because he totally looked to Lindsay for his cue before Lindsay answered - but it was clear he found the idea just ridiculous.

Maybe, maybe not. They were in a pretty public, loud place...not the venue for a heart-to-heart. And maybe he had some hope that Danny and Lindsay were actually over--I think he was fishing a bit with that comment, hoping Danny would give him some clue as to where he and Lindsay actually stood.

Actually, I figured they were over by that point, before Danny decided to change his mind...but back to Flack: they were in a public place, but I'd've thought that would be better for having a serious talk...better than on the street or in a coffee shop after the game, anyway - less chance that Danny could just get up and leave if he didn't like what Flack was saying (like he's done before).

Eddie once said Danny was Flack's id. I can totally see that--the stuff Danny does is stuff Flack might like to do, if he wasn't so in control.

That explains a lot...especially the way Danny and Flack are always so in tune when they interrogate suspects - Danny does what Flack can't, but wants to. :lol:

Flack puts up with a lot for/from Danny. I can't imagine that not extending to Lindsay.

There's a difference between being ditched in a diner, or staying at a hospital, or having to chase Danny all around town because he's in trouble and needs help - and putting up with an irritating girl without telling her she's irritating on the off chance that Danny might have a crush on her. Flack is more than willing to put up with hell when Danny's in trouble or in pain, but without such a good reason, he rarely puts up with crap otherwise. Certainly not when it's crap almost entirely unrelated to Danny (Danny isn't usually around when Lindsay gets snarky with Flack, is he?).

But the relationship never was really established--it's always been a back and forth yo-yo thing. And I think if the writers had really wanted to establish them as a couple, they would have done so at the end of PF by having Danny tell Lindsay that he loved her, too. She'd said it twice, he didn't say it at all. There was nothing after that ep either until Belknap getting pregnant literally forced the writers' hands.

...

It felt like they were naturally reaching a conclusion there in season four and I know the original plans for season five were a) to bring Rikki back and b) introduce a new love interest for Lindsay.

Was that seriously the plan?? I'm about ready to cry now - I almost think I would've paid to see that version of S5 instead. I spent the last few episodes of Season 4 wishing that Danny had kept going with Rikki rather than deciding he was half-interested in Lindsay again...and wow, I wonder what Lindsay would've been like in a relationship other than D/L?

I wish we'd seen Danny stand up to her, too! Danny just shuts down in the face of people he cares about getting upset with/mad at him, and I think that's what happened here. It felt like her taking advantage of him though, and that's always grated for me.

I don't know how much of that scene was just Mary-Sue-related-bad-writing (which might mean the writers never intended for Danny to go that extra step), but I really wish he had gone that extra step and stood up to her. It wasn't even like he shut down in that scene, really - he snapped back when she started outright complaining, and she sounded angrier when she was complaining than she did when she asked him to take the
mother instead.

ETA: Sorry, only just came back and noticed I'd forgotten about the last sentence of that quote! I'm still iffy on whether that bit in Oedipus Hex was Lindsay taking advantage of Danny, or manipulating him - I don't really see it being that different from how Danny guilt-tripped Aiden into staying on the case in Crime and Misdemeanour, to be honest. It didn't seem like Lindsay expected him to take the mother because she knew he had feelings for her (which she may not even have been sure about); it was more something a friend would ask of a friend. Had it been anyone else other than Mac or Stella in that scene, I could totally see her making the same request. I'm just not sure if anyone else would've caved to the request.

 

[Top41]

Long weekend! I'm going to try to fit this all into one post as well.

One thing I thought of a little today is that we've spent a lot of time talking about Lindsay's walls but not much about Danny's. And I absolutely think he has them--he's willing to go to any lengths for someone he cares about but is less sure about letting someone be there for him. The only one he's ever seemed really comfortable turning to is Flack, and even then, he sometimes doesn't seem to get why Flack is so patient with or willing to extend himself for him. His "why didn't you mind your own business?" question in "All in the Family" to Flack suggested it didn't really even occur to him that Flack would want to be there for him, that Flack would consider him worthy of that care/help. I think Danny is the same way with Lindsay--he doesn't turn to her because he doesn't think he deserves her support. Compound that with the terrible way she's treated him at times and I can totally see why he'd have a hang-up about that.

If Lindsay was yelling just to be mean, she could (and I think would) have said meaner things. And if she wasn't yelling just to be mean...there's simply no other reason other than that she cared, and was trying to get the message across.

Yeah, but did she care about him, or that she didn't have the version of him she wanted? I keep getting stuck on that speech being all about her.

In which case there certainly wouldn't have been any reason to start shouting in the office, let alone go off on a rant that had nothing to do with her birthday or lunch. Plus, he was practically groveling in DOA for a Day anyway, it would've been problem solved.

He made excuses in "DOA for a Day"--he didn't grovel. Groveling would have been offering to buy her a diamond for forgetting her birthday.

There's being mean, and there's purposely holding back/being short because you're otherwise not going to be able to stop yourself from being mean. It was obvious Lindsay was set off in the office because this is what she'd spent the entire episode doing; holding back. I don't think she intended to rant, but it was clear that if she was planning on saying something, she had no intention of saying it at work. If her attitude was a problem, it wasn't the major one - and I think Danny was aware of that. He didn't just shut down during rant, he looked guilty from the moment Lindsay went off.

He looked guilty because he already felt like shit and here was another person telling him he'd let her down. As for her holding back the whole episode--she acted like a petulant child and, like she always does, made him come after her to get an explanation. Holding back would have been acting professional but distant--she was just being passive aggressive.

She didn't expect him to be only hurt, I think. She might've expected a little hurt (maybe that's why she walked away, to give him time to get over it). And I don't know how well she knows his insecurities or not, but the guy obviously didn't want to marry her and it showed. If she concluded that relief should've quickly outweighed the rejection...that doesn't exactly sound like the most unreasonable conclusion she could make.

It's still emotional Danny, and he was obviously trying to do what he thought was the right thing. For her to expect him not to be hurt would illustrate that after four years, she still doesn't know him.

Her finding him when the baby started to kick? (Before he asked her to, presumably) Her allowing him to hover over her stomach reading a comic book while she was working...and however cute-ish a scene it was, how annoying would that have been, really? I get that he was afraid, but honestly, if the fact that he's not interested in her (as a girlfriend) wasn't his first clue that marriage was the worst way to go, the fact that he's still holding behaviour from the last two years against her, should at least have been the second.

I don't think he was consciously holding it against her, though. I think he's insecure and the yo-yo way she treats him totally brings out those insecurities. One week she's telling him he doesn't need to be involved, the next she finds him when the baby kicks... I can see how he'd be confused and feeling like she could change her mind at any time.

As it is, I saw Lindsay support him, call him, and get nothing back ... which makes me sympathetic, but I can see how that would also put her on the "definitely-in-the-right" side of the fight if we're looking solely at writers'-intent and Lindsay's Mary-Sue-ness. She gets to do nothing in terms of face-to-face support, and still look like the injured party. It bugs me, but there it is. I just think it would've worked better - in terms of making it clear that D/L were "off-again" - if we'd at least seen a good example of why Lindsay wasn't getting anything back: because she's crap at reaching out. I think if she'd tried, she would've messed it up, gotten into a fight with Danny - maybe during which we actually saw them split up - and pushed him further away.

That definitely would have been more clear, yeah. The whole DL thing has been kind of botched--we don't ever really get enough to get a real feel for them as a realistic couple. It always feels half-developed.

LOL, it would've been even clearer if he'd told her to quit it, or even changed the subject :lol: I think Lindsay would definitely have gotten that message, and it wouldn't have happened again.

I thought he was pretty clear, personally! I suppose he could have been an all out jerk to her, but that's not really his style.

I could be fine with him just not saying anything .. at least that would be him giving her the silent treatment, which is some sort of acknowledgment of what she's done. Instead, he's friendlier/more personable with her than even Mac or Stella tend to be at times, and during episodes where Danny and Lindsay are on the outs (or should be on the outs), it just gets...well, strange. Interesting, but strange.

Maybe he's hoping she and Danny are done for good? :lol: I just don't see him being that warm with her except when they bond over something that's totally situational, like the Laughing Larry thing.

Oh, he's totally a gentleman. But I think remarks like the PF one have slipped out before, I don't think it's the first time he's made it. It's not even going out of his way to express displeasure, it probably just happens - but that's also why I think it was a relatively light remark. If it was supposed to conceal a serious issue Flack has, I think it would have come up to Lindsay's face, in a way she couldn't mistake. It's not like he hasn't been snarky to her before; it's not in a mean way, but Lindsay senses hostility even when it's not actually there. I think she would've picked up on something.

Again, I just don't see Flack interfering with Danny's relationship in that way. He's just not the type. But I do think that remark in PF is telling, and yeah, probably not the first time Flack has snarked on Lindsay to Danny. Friends really have to be careful about disliking their friends' significant others, because the person could end up marrying the offending significant other. Like Danny did with Lindsay.

Actually, I figured they were over by that point, before Danny decided to change his mind...but back to Flack: they were in a public place, but I'd've thought that would be better for having a serious talk...better than on the street or in a coffee shop after the game, anyway - less chance that Danny could just get up and leave if he didn't like what Flack was saying (like he's done before).

Danny has no problem leaving whatever the venue, but again, I don't think Flack would corner him for a serious heart-to-heart in a crowded stadium. And I'm not saying Flack wanted to have a heart-to-heart--just that that comment said a lot to me about how he feels about Lindsay.

There's a difference between being ditched in a diner, or staying at a hospital, or having to chase Danny all around town because he's in trouble and needs help - and putting up with an irritating girl without telling her she's irritating on the off chance that Danny might have a crush on her. Flack is more than willing to put up with hell when Danny's in trouble or in pain, but without such a good reason, he rarely puts up with crap otherwise. Certainly not when it's crap almost entirely unrelated to Danny (Danny isn't usually around when Lindsay gets snarky with Flack, is he?).

Nope, but I see genuine irritation from Flack towards Lindsay on several occasions. Sure, sometimes they're fine and friendly, but sometimes he seems downright irritated with her. More in the earlier seasons than now.

ETA: Sorry, only just came back and noticed I'd forgotten about the last sentence of that quote! I'm still iffy on whether that bit in Oedipus Hex was Lindsay taking advantage of Danny, or manipulating him - I don't really see it being that different from how Danny guilt-tripped Aiden into staying on the case in Crime and Misdemeanour, to be honest. It didn't seem like Lindsay expected him to take the mother because she knew he had feelings for her (which she may not even have been sure about); it was more something a friend would ask of a friend. Had it been anyone else other than Mac or Stella in that scene, I could totally see her making the same request. I'm just not sure if anyone else would've caved to the request.

How could she not be sure about his feelings after "Love Run Cold"? He made them pretty clear. I feel like she took total advantage of him in that episode, and I'm not sure she would have made that same request of Mac or Stella, since she usually does try to impress them. If she'd just asked him, it would have been one thing, but she didn't--she pitched a fit to make him feel guilty and then she got him to take the mother. That whole thing totally felt like manipulation to me.

 

[Maya316]

One thing I thought of a little today is that we've spent a lot of time talking about Lindsay's walls but not much about Danny's. And I absolutely think he has them--he's willing to go to any lengths for someone he cares about but is less sure about letting someone be there for him. The only one he's ever seemed really comfortable turning to is Flack, and even then, he sometimes doesn't seem to get why Flack is so patient with or willing to extend himself for him. His "why didn't you mind your own business?" question in "All in the Family" to Flack suggested it didn't really even occur to him that Flack would want to be there for him, that Flack would consider him worthy of that care/help. I think Danny is the same way with Lindsay--he doesn't turn to her because he doesn't think he deserves her support. Compound that with the terrible way she's treated him at times and I can totally see why he'd have a hang-up about that.

That's so true, Danny definitely has walls of his own. I find them harder to define than Lindsay's, because when Lindsay doesn't want to talk, she just doesn't want to talk, and that becomes obvious very quickly. Whereas with Danny, most of the time he just radiates the fact that he's in pain and needs help, even lets little comments slip that reveal that very same thing. But when people actually do reach out to try and talk (like Angell's "I'm sorry in Happily Never After, or Flack's telling him he had to stop blaming himself for Ruben's death), he doesn't seem to know what to do with that, and so shuts down. That's most likely due to Danny not believing that they really want to help him, or that he deserves their help - it's one of the few similarities I see between him and Lindsay, actually. It takes so much to convince him that people want to be there for him, so there's definitely a wall there. Flack (maybe Mac to an extent too) seems to be the only one alive who's managed to convince Danny of that, but Danny seemed to have that kind of bond with Aiden, too. He seems to question everyone's motives when they're trying to show him they care, but with Aiden he almost seemed to expect that she would, with no questions asked.

Yeah, but did she care about him, or that she didn't have the version of him she wanted? I keep getting stuck on that speech being all about her.

But she never got the version of him she wanted back; which makes the speech kind of ineffective. If that was all she wanted, she probably would've been more successful by just taking him up on the coffee and letting everything blow over, rather than start ranting. That's what she did with Playing With Matches (once Danny made enough pushes to be friendly), and they almost seemed back to normal in that episode. That's why I really don't think Danny would've been able to set her off in RND, if she didn't genuinely care about what he was going through.

He made excuses in "DOA for a Day"--he didn't grovel. Groveling would have been offering to buy her a diamond for forgetting her birthday.

LOL, definitely over-the-top....I don't know, I just saw groveling in "DOA" because he seemed so eager/desperate to get back into her good graces (which he did, briefly, seem to do). Eagerness might've meant more than a diamond, as far as getting back on Lindsay's good side went. If her birthday was the only problem Lindsay had with him.

He looked guilty because he already felt like shit and here was another person telling him he'd let her down. As for her holding back the whole episode--she acted like a petulant child and, like she always does, made him come after her to get an explanation. Holding back would have been acting professional but distant--she was just being passive aggressive.

But he looked directly at her when she was telling him she was mad at herself; and only looked downward/guilty-ish when she was accusing him of things he'd actually done (deciding to grieve "all on his own", reducing her to a "shallow clingy girlfriend"). I can imagine how the speech might've affected his insecurities, but he really seemed to react most to the things he knew he was guilty of.

(Sorry, a re-run of "Right Next Door" is playing on TV literally as I'm typing this; so I'm ridiculously stuck on the details :lol

And yeah, I definitely don't think Danny would've ever gotten an explanation for Lindsay's petulance if he hadn't demanded one, so I agree about the passive-agressiveness. It was clear she was angry, but it did seem like she was holding back. I saw professional distance - she was fine talking to him and Stella about the case; and even in the scene in the hallway with Hawkes, she didn't so much shove the folder at Danny as she waited for him to take it before she bailed.

It's still emotional Danny, and he was obviously trying to do what he thought was the right thing. For her to expect him not to be hurt would illustrate that after four years, she still doesn't know him.

No, I don't think she knows him so well, because I think she really approached that scenario from the way she'd like to be treated, if she were in Danny's shoes. She expected reason to trump Danny's feelings of rejection, and clearly, it didn't (I know he was trying to do the right thing, but really, his reluctance was so obvious. That's why I too was surprised when he really seemed stuck on the marriage issue). Lindsay knows him at least partially, though; her walking away seemed to indicate that even though she was initially confused by it, she knew he was hurt (and of course, was giving him space to get over the hurt, just like she'd want if it was her getting hurt). But she seemed to expect him to get over it quickly.

I don't think he was consciously holding it against her, though. I think he's insecure and the yo-yo way she treats him totally brings out those insecurities. One week she's telling him he doesn't need to be involved, the next she finds him when the baby kicks... I can see how he'd be confused and feeling like she could change her mind at any time.

I could be more sympathetic if it were solely Lindsay's behaviour that was causing the confusion. But Lindsay reacts to Danny almost as much as he does to her - and it's usually Danny that's the catalyst for the yo-yo behaviour. Not so much at the beginning of Season 3, but toward the end of Season 3 she was open to a relationship largely because she (understandably, imo) got the impression that Danny was receptive to one, too. And then he didn't even need a reason to pull away in Season 4 (he was doing that long before "Child's Play"), and then when she'd finally gotten to the point of giving up and just letting it go, he was all about her again. As far as the baby thing goes, something huge happened between those two weeks that she was sending mixed signals - he told her he wanted to be involved. And that he loved her, which I think was almost as important to Lindsay. He's the one who makes her change her mind.

I think Lindsay had no intention of going anywhere in Season 5, whether Danny married her or not - but I can't really blame her for not making that as obvious as she could have. Last time she did that (beginning of S4), Danny couldn't have been less interested if he'd tried. But her wariness fuels his confusion and insecurities. Hence, the ugliness. So I guess I'm particularly impatient with the whole insistence-on-marriage thing because the last thing this vicious cycle needs is Danny's attempt to convince Lindsay he's in love with her, when he's actually not. I get why he did it, but it's the last thing they need.

That definitely would have been more clear, yeah. The whole DL thing has been kind of botched--we don't ever really get enough to get a real feel for them as a realistic couple. It always feels half-developed.

Oh my gosh, this is so true. I literally had to buy Seasons 2 and 3, and watch them straight through to even get that D and L were supposed to have a storyline. It's really hard to get a sense of them as a couple, they often just come off as good friends. Which would be nice (it used to be one of the things I liked about Danny and Lindsay), but the writers keep throwing them into stuff like breakups and potential not-cheating, and missed dates and whatnot. None of which make any sense if we never actually see them be a couple in less dramatic times.

I thought he was pretty clear, personally! I suppose he could have been an all out jerk to her, but that's not really his style.

Nah, there was no way he'd be a jerk - but I don't think jerkishness would've been required. Lindsay's kind of hyper-sensitive to hostility directed at her (I remember how she got touchy with that suspect in Risk just because he suggested she might be from New Jersey); so I just think that if even Flack's tone had indicated he really didn't like the teasing, Lindsay would've picked up on it, and it would've shown.

Maybe he's hoping she and Danny are done for good? :lol: I just don't see him being that warm with her except when they bond over something that's totally situational, like the Laughing Larry thing.

LOL, that could totally be it. I agree he's not as close to her as he is to the other members of the team, but I put that down to a comparative lack of interaction rather than lack of warmth. I mean, Flack's always with Mac and Stella, then of course there's Danny, and when it comes to Hawkes it often seems like the three of them (Sheldon, Flack, and Danny) are like this triple set. He doesn't interact half as much with Lindsay, so they definitely don't bond over as much - but imo, there's a level of comfort in their interactions that makes up for that; to me, it's the same thing that makes their scenes so funny. Honestly, the only other person I can imagine Flack allowing to pull something like Lindsay did in "Silicone" is Danny. Even when Hawkes was teasing him in "Sleight out of Hand" (the whole "Houdini" conversation), Flack was on the defensive - and he walked into that just as much as he walked into Lindsay's teasing.

Again, I just don't see Flack interfering with Danny's relationship in that way. He's just not the type. But I do think that remark in PF is telling, and yeah, probably not the first time Flack has snarked on Lindsay to Danny. Friends really have to be careful about disliking their friends' significant others, because the person could end up marrying the offending significant other. Like Danny did with Lindsay.

I don't even think it would be interfering in D/L though - I mean, I really don't see it affecting Danny and Lindsay's relationship if Flack were to tell Lindsay that she bothers him (if she does). I find it hard to believe it would even get back to Danny, ever. And yeah, he's totally snarked to Danny before. :lol: I still think it's just light snarking, but if anything I think it indicated that Flack might have a problem with D/L - not with Lindsay herself. Airing frustrations about your friend's relationship to your friend makes sense in a way I could see meshing with Flack's character. Airing frustrations about the girl herself to your friend makes less sense, because I think Flack would just tell Lindsay about those frustrations himself. I could definitely believe it if Flack had a problem with D/L. [I have a problem with D/L. Hell, Danny and Lindsay seem to have a problem with D/L.]

Danny has no problem leaving whatever the venue, but again, I don't think Flack would corner him for a serious heart-to-heart in a crowded stadium. And I'm not saying Flack wanted to have a heart-to-heart--just that that comment said a lot to me about how he feels about Lindsay.

Did it really? I'm not so sure the comment was that personal - even if I took Flack's words very literally and assumed he fully meant it (I'm still not sure we weren't supposed to view the remark lightly), I'd think he meant that he appreciates it when Lindsay and Danny fight. Maybe even that he wants them to split up. That doesn't seem particularly hostile to Lindsay herself. He didn't even bash her indirectly, like by implying that she was the one who'd pissed Danny off.

Nope, but I see genuine irritation from Flack towards Lindsay on several occasions. Sure, sometimes they're fine and friendly, but sometimes he seems downright irritated with her. More in the earlier seasons than now.

Maybe, but I still think if he was genuinely irritated with her, he'd tell her that he was genuinely irritated. Especially in the earlier seasons, since she and Danny weren't even together. Flack's made it very clear when he's been irritated with Mac and Stella, and they're not only his closest coworkers; Mac's practically his boss.

How could she not be sure about his feelings after "Love Run Cold"? He made them pretty clear. I feel like she took total advantage of him in that episode, and I'm not sure she would have made that same request of Mac or Stella, since she usually does try to impress them. If she'd just asked him, it would have been one thing, but she didn't--she pitched a fit to make him feel guilty and then she got him to take the mother. That whole thing totally felt like manipulation to me.

The thing is, Danny specifically told her he was interested in drinks and laughs. While we can debate how serious or not-serious he was about her, Lindsay didn't have that luxury, and most of the concern Danny had shown her up to that point was perfectly within the "friendship" boundaries - even hunting her down to find out what's wrong is something a friend would've done. At most she knew he had a crush on her, but I don't know, I think I class crush-feelings among friendship, rather than serious-love.

I'm aware that friendship-feelings can also be manipulated, but that's where I'm actually seeing the parallel between Oedipus Hex and Crime and Misdemeanour - Danny guilt-tripped Aiden too, accusing her of "bailing" on him, and then getting her to stick with the case even though she could get in trouble for it. I think Lindsay was asking Danny as a friend (maybe as a friend-with-a-crush) because I could totally see her asking the same thing had it ben Hawkes or Adam in the room with her. Maybe not Mac or Stella...because they're her bosses, and she wants to impress them.