Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[Top41]

I can't see that allowing concern over a friend to interfere with an unrelated investigation, is less acceptable than allowing concern over yourself to interfere with that investigation. To me they're both acceptable and perfectly understandable.

Well, neither is really acceptable, but in terms of being understandable, one is reacting to an issue you have (Stella relating to the woman who claimed she was attacked) and one is using what someone else went through to have an emotional outburst/let off steam. Given that Lindsay and Stella weren't even that close at that point (or ever, IMO), I think it was more than a little drama queen/attention whore behavior from Lindsay.

I think it would've sounded a bit more upbeat if she really thought she was awesome for doing what she had to do. And she might've looked less like she wanted to run screaming from the room when she was alone with the mother.

I didn't really get that all--I felt she had on her martyr face.

On Stella, I've seen the response enough ("Lindsay was going through something horrible, Stella was being so meeeaan!11!"); and with the RND thing, much the same. Both are cases, imo, of fan-apologizing - fans of the character, on knowing the reasons for their fave character's less-than-stellar moment, immediately forgive them (or find them justified) and thus turn on the character(s) in the fight. It happens to every fan of every thing, I think, so it doesn't bother me a lot, but I think that's the response the writers/producers were kind of hoping for, and basing those Lindsay-mistakes on. I mean, with RND; in no other situation would Lindsay ever come out looking good for yelling at Danny. But they'd already shown Danny "cheating". I think at that point, Lindsay could've slapped Danny and still been defended to the death :lol:. I can't think things weren't set up that way on purpose. Why have Lindsay yell in the same episode Danny slept with Rikki, if it wasn't designed to make people overlook her mistake?

Well, sure, and I think they were kind of trying to create sympathy for both characters, but just ended up muddying the waters. They basically wanted it both ways, which never works. They've gone on record saying Danny didn't cheat--but if he didn't, why was Lindsay justified in chewing him out? She did look shallow, whereas if she'd called him to the carpet for cheating, she would have come across as totally justified. But they threw in him sleeping with Rikki to make us feel sorry for Lindsay--so there was some balance. I just think it wasn't handled very well.

I'm iffy on how well Lindsay knows Danny's emotional responses, but given how well things went when she tried to predict what he'd want during the Ruben crisis (cue sarcasm ), I could see how she'd feel clueless a second time around. Pregnancy is not the same as what happened with Ruben, but what happened with Ruben could very easily have factored into how well Danny responded to the pregnancy, might have influenced that response just like the experience with Ruben influenced other parts of his life during that whole storyline. It doesn't have much to do with irresponsibility, imo; it could've been as simple as fearing that the same thing that happened to Ruben would've happened to his kid. There are a ton of factors for why Danny might've backed away, Lindsay and their relationship being only one of them. Since that's what I think Lindsay knew better than us fans do, yeah, I think his response would've been a question mark to her.

I can sort of see it from that angle, but at the same time, I think her "I know you" line was out of line. It was kind of cruel, given that if his response really was a question mark for her, she didn't know how he'd react. Why not just say, "I needed some time to figure this out" rather than "I know you," which indicates she wasn't planning on telling him anytime soon--and if she didn't absolutely have to because they work together, might never have told him.

She did give him the info and sat back to see what happened, though he had to chase her down to get that info. It wasn't hurting him to not know beforehand. If she had to take extra time to make sure she was prepared for whatever his response would be (and that did seem to be what she was still in the process of doing, given how quickly she tried to leave after giving him the ultrasound pic), I don't see the problem.

That's not really the problem--it's more the "I know you" line, indicating a judgment of him, and a real reluctance to tell him at all.

And I'm totally not disagreeing, but even in S3 they eventually gave an explanation for Lindsay's about-face (even if we didn't so much get one on Danny's sudden interest); in S4 we were given some indication that something might be going on behind-the-scenes, even if we only discovered they were "officially" together like, during the episode they split up. And this isn't even the "will-they-won't-they" dance that tons of viewers don't give a rat's behind about, it's a pregnancy/baby, which every viewer is going to notice. The only explanation we got was one night in PF and weeks of silence afterward, even though Lindsay's been pregnant and had Lucy already. If the producers wanted us to have a different impression beyond "icy-silence" of what went on between Lindsay and Danny during those weeks, they probably would've worked in a few moments.

Yeah... I think they were just going for things not being the same between them. Again, not done so well....

So true about Danny, although I'm blaming the writers if they'd meant it to imply something other than what I (and apparently Lindsay) took it as :shifty:. I'm even more confused about the Jaws thing now because I have no idea how long after RND that offer was. But I'm going with the friends approach, because he didn't seem that interested in getting back together even in LWFM. After she left he looked more bored in an "oh well" way, rather than actually disappointed.

I think he was trying, but was probably pretty confused about what he wanted or how he was supposed to be feeling then. I think he felt bad, because I think Danny's gut instinct is always to feel bad when he's called out on something, but I also think that he was testing the waters to see how pissed/upset she was... how she much she cared, basically.

And I think "I'm not going anywhere" answered that fear pretty directly; in the most direct way possible, really, aside from saying "the child's not going anywhere." (Which she couldn't really promise anyway - what if she'd had a miscarriage or something?)

No, I agree--but again, this goes back to Danny's emotional damage. Short of providing him concrete proof... ie, marrying him, or maybe legally giving him sole custody or something, he wasn't going to believe her. Insane abandonment issues and all that.

He was hers, legally, as he would've been after "The Triangle" had she said yes. Aside from that, things were basically the same back then as they were in "Green Piece". Eight episodes of him reacting solely to her belly, I'm not seeing how she would've assumed he was proposing for any different reason.

I think she was ready to buy into the fantasy by "Green Piece," and he was saying a lot of the things she wanted to hear... while at the same time, I think his insecurities and fears were very obvious, too. She just chose to overlook them. If someone offers you exactly what you want, even if a nagging voice is telling you something is off or it might not be a good thing, how long are you going to be able to say no for?

I don't think the second demand for an explanation would've erased a year's worth of reactionary (at best) interest on Danny's part. She did notice he was hurt after that second explanation, but seemed to assume he'd get over it. And to be fair, all of his reactions after that episode did seem to indicate he'd gotten over it fairly well. At least until "Sleight".

The fact that he kept trying to get that explanation out of her indicated he cared. And the fact that she was able to manipulate him into taking the mother two episodes later indicated he still cared about her. I agree that maybe she thought it wasn't that big a deal to him initially, but at the same time, she'd seen how emotional Danny was for like a year. She'd seen him get hurt several times (RSRD, Heroes). It's hard to believe she didn't have some inkling about how sensitive he was.

I also don't think the things she's done on the show support the idea that she doesn't care about his emotional well-being. Case in point, the wedding we keep talking about - it benefited him way more than it did her, and I think she had to know that going into it.

Well, it benefits her legally, too. But I think if she didn't love him, if she didn't want him to be hers--she wouldn't have gone through with the marriage. Her flirting with him in "Grounds for Deception" in the lab makes it very clear that she's still really into him.

He needed prompting twice (with regards to Ruben - needed none at all when it came to Aiden). I can't see the comment to Angell being vent-y unless I also see the killer-at-a-kindergarten one being a vent, because the latter one was far more indicative of his feelings over Ruben's death.

Well, the comment about the kindergarten was made around Mac, and I do think Danny seeks his attention/solace.

And before they hit boyfriend/girlfriend stage, it certainly wouldn't scream that he was interested in you seriously.

I don't know... I think it indicated Danny was thinking that if he was really, really nice to her, she'd want to be with him. Again, I think it's kind of indicative of him being mistreated at some key stage in his life--he only seemed/seems really interested when she's treating him like dirt.

But she would've had him either way, had she said yes. Additionally, didn't even Anna Belknap say the way Danny was asking was cute enough she felt sorry for saying no? It was a cute enough proposal, guys get nervous when they do it even if they've planned it, and she knew just as well in "Green Piece" as she did in "The Triangle" that it was all about the baby.

I don't know--I still maintain no woman is going to say yes to a proposal that starts with the guy asking about mental illness in her family, no matter how "cute" he's being. And it was too close to when she told him about the baby--it was so obvious that was why he was proposing. But later on down the road, she could fool herself a little. He was clearly interested--even if it was in the baby.

It's a frighteningly-common response in other fandoms I've been in (then again, Harry Potter fandom used to get ugly on almost a daily basis :lol, enough so that I was actually worried about seeing more of the same thing I saw on Ausiello when "The Box" was about to air. Until we heard the dialogue between Lindsay/Danny, of course.

Someone got pregnant in HP? :wtf: Shows how much I follow that fandom. :lol: But unless it's a soap and someone is actually doing that, I don't know why that would be the first assumption anyone would have about the woman's motivation... especially in this day and age.

Definitely true, although I wonder how much of that has to do with who Lindsay's dating, and whether that would change if she were dating someone else, someone she didn't work with/see all the time. She chose the easy option, going after the guy she spends half her life sitting across an office from. He's likely seen her in everything from dumpster-diving wear to autopsy-wear to you-name it. Doesn't really encourage the need to go all-out - I think the most she's ever done for Danny as far as that is keeping her curls in Season 2 because Danny responded well to them in "Risk".

Interesting... I'd never thought of it that way, that she'd kept them because of his comment.

I could see the problem with only two examples, if we'd seen him reciprocate a desire to engage on an emotional level even once after they started dating (preferably while they were dating, because I don't know how much it counts to want to invest just because you've broken up with your girlfriend and apparently. As it is, I saw no interest from him, and two attempts from Lindsay being brushed off does start to seem like a lot.

The problem here is that we didn't see a lot of them as a couple before things went south in season four. I think he was sweet/supportive in "Boo." I think Danny is afraid to open himself up because he knows how difficult he is emotionally--and was probably told that at some formative stage in his life--and assumes that someone dealing with that in a relationship would immediately want to head for the hills.

He was clearly uncomfortable in "The Deep" with her expressing concern--though I think he was with Hawkes, too, when Hawkes thanked him. Danny doesn't think much of himself when it comes down to it, and one thing I find interesting is that when he does do something right or save the day, people do tend to make a big deal out of it. Everyone: Mac and Stella did in "The Thing About Heroes" when he saved everyone on the train. I think Danny's low self-esteem is obvious to everyone. And he never really seems to know how to react when they do make a big deal--usually he just doesn't say anything, or does try to brush it off or change the subject. So I don't think his reaction was so specific to her in that case.

And as I've said in "Child's Play," he was already on his way out. He was clearly more at ease with her when joking around, like in "You Only Die Once" and "Commuted Sentences," when his emotional vulnerability wasn't right there in the foreground. It makes me wonder if he didn't pull away from her after Ruben's death to try to shield her from that side of himself--the side he assumed would send her running for the hills.

 

[Maya316]

Because a lot of time she seems to use it when she wants someone to do something for her.

That's why most people snipe in general, and certainly the characters in these shows. Especially when the something they want people to do is along the lines of "leave me alone"?

Eh, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. I think they had it planned early on, since it was in the character description and she made the comment about bloody crime scenes in "Manhattan Manhunt." I don't think the show is really subtle--if she was being kept away from potential shoot outs, we'd know about it because someone would have mentioned it.

I can agree to disagree I agree about the lack of subtlety, but I think Lindsay's character would come across far les choppy if they'd had more than the most general idea of her "dark secret" from the very beginning.

Yeah, it's just that it was done so dramatically. It screamed "attention whore" to me. Leaving and storming off are different things, and she definitely did the latter.

I can see how storming-off would draw more attention than quietly leaving, because it lets people know you're pissed. But it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to get attention if you're literally leaving the room where all the attention is (and trying to shake off the one person who followed you from that room), so I took it to mean she wanted out of there more than she wanted attention. If she wanted that, she'd've stuck around.

If we're thinking of the same comment, yeah, he did. He said "This is the last place I want to be looking for a killer" when he, Angell and Mac got to the kindergarten. Maybe he said something earlier in front of Adam? I don't recall. But if Mac was there, I imagine Mac was his intended audience--and Danny does have a history of reaching out to Mac for comfort/support

I went back and looked at this episode a few weeks ago, and he definitely made the comment in front of Adam in the lab, not Angell. Adam and Mac were talking about the phone number (or play-doh or something) that pointed them in the direction of the kindergarten, Danny said his "kindergartens are the last place I want to be looking for a killer right now" line. Then in the very next scene after that we saw Angell, Danny, and Mac in the kindergarten, but a similar remark didn't come up. I do think Mac was his intended audience, but he was facing Adam when he said it, so I have to think he didn't care if both of them heard. He was venting.

It's definitely possible that he was avoiding her, though I'm not sure we can know that for sure. In 411 and 412, they were assigned to different cases, and in 413, he was dealing with something else and avoiding everyone. Even if he was avoiding her, we don't know that she ever tried to reach out to him.

No we don't, and I don't think she actively tried to reach out to him either; and yeah, shame on her for that. But again with the sullenness in 4.14, it told me that she badly wanted him to come to her, rather than she was dreading the idea that he might come to her. And she'd already done things that indicated she was concerned on more than a superficial level, and one which even indicated that she wanted to talk. Coupled all together, there's enough to contradict the idea that she was avoiding him.

I assumed they had the same shift and by "cover for him," she meant she'd make an excuse to Mac, which she did. I assume she took on extra work, but not that she worked an actual double shift.

I guess that's possible. I've never worked in a place where you don't have to call someone in to actually take over your shift if you're not going to show up, so I assumed it'd be the same with the CSIs (especially with the amount of work they have - isn't that why some of them are called in even on their days off?).

Mac was the person Danny needed to appeal to--to shut him out would have been counterproductive. Though when he felt he was being shut out by Mac, that's when he went out on his own, called Flack and then went to IAB.

Danny didn't need to appeal to Mac, he simply wanted to - it was IAB that needed to be convinced (or not convinced) all along. Danny could've just shut down the moment Mac handed him that card and then run to IAB later anyway. Mac would've had no idea what Danny was up to, or why he'd done it, or why he hadn't felt the need to convince Mac first. But Danny made it clear that he had a problem with Mac thinking he was guilty.

I totally remember Danny cringing slightly when Mac chewed him out in C&M. It's been ages and ages since I've seen the episode, but I do remember him eventually shutting down. But in that case, it was clear that Danny did what Mac was upset at him for. In the other case, is it possible to shut someone out if they never reach out to you??

Yeah it is, if you don't have a problem venting to/in front of other people who haven't reached out to you either. I know there's nothing solidly concrete to suggest that Danny was avoiding her. But what gets me is that even when the show kind of acknowledged she'd welcome him saying something about Ruben, and that he was okay mentioning it to others who weren't involved, he didn't even hint at it with Lindsay, or around Lindsay. That makes me think it was a pointed shut-out (maybe not on his part, but definitely with the writing).

He could have but he was already pretty darn broken down. I really don't think that can be discounted. He was already depressed, and I don't think he had much fight left in him. As you've mentioned before, his attempts to get her to talk to him before "Personal Foul" were pretty half-hearted. I think that was a real low point for him.

I agree that it was a very low period for him, I just don't think that had much to do with why he didn't fight back. We've seen him at lower points, imo (or at least, points where he should have been lower), and he's had plenty of fight in him during those periods.

The jealousy is still a reach I think. If she knew, I think she'd be downright furious, especially if she considered herself his girlfriend. Cheating is not an issue that gets masked in an argument--it's front and center.

It's also the one issue you can bring up that will undoubtedly make you seem like a "clingy" girlfriend, especially in a fight like that. And given that's the image of herself Lindsay seemed a little desperate to avoid, I can't be surprised that one of the first things she tried to make clear was that she wasn't jealous. I think she did consider herself his girlfriend, right up until sometime mid-RND; but if she'd picked up on the fact that he was "cheating", I think it would've been impossible for her not to pick up on all the other "we're over" signals he'd been sending for a long time. And quite frankly, when it becomes obvious that the guy doesn't think you have a hold on him anymore, it's just flat-out embarrassing to make yourself look like the jealous ex who can't let go. I mean, Lindsay left herself open enough to humiliation in that monologue without adding that to the mix.

Also, I was more referring to the fact that we know Danny at least thinks Lindsay knows about Rikki. I don't know when else he would've gotten that idea, except for the one time Lindsay actually hinted at it.

I do think this is what got him, and sure, he felt bad about it. But was she right to make him feel bad about it, when she never really reached out? Just because he felt bad about it doesn't make her right. He pushed Flack away, he even got snippy with Flack and told Flack he should have minded his own business, and Flack's response was one of love and patience and understanding.

Flack's response was also the concise, easy explanation for why Danny should've known better than to try shutting him out - and why Flack would've had every right to get angry if Danny had actually managed to. He's his friend. He should know that Flack cares about what he's going through. I know Danny's insecure, but I have to think that after thirty years he's picked up on the fact that shutting out people who care about you hurts them.

Flack managed to push his way in, and that's what Lindsay should've done, so that's on her. But while I don't know how loosely they were using the terms "boyfriend/girlfriend" with each other, I think it's fair to say Lindsay was in a position that would allow Danny to reasonably expect her to care about him and what he was going through. [And yeah, while I can see how S3 might've made him feel sketchy, I still maintain that if that's how he felt he shouldn't have entered the relationship in the first place. Or at least should've told her how things would stand from the beginning - no emotional involvement.] As his whatever, she never did one thing that would've contradicted the idea that she cared about him; in fact did a lot to back that idea up. It's sketchy because Lindsay never did her part in reaching out. But since I so don't buy that Danny was completely ignorant about Lindsay caring for him, shutting her out (and then apparently dumping her without telling her she'd been dumped) was wrong and he should know that.

But that's how she presented herself. Why make a big deal out of him forgetting her birthday rather than saying, "I'm trying to be there for you and you're shutting me out." (If that's even what she was doing.) Why get pissed about the lunch rather than saying, "I want to be there for you." She was acting like a shallow person, at the very least. Maybe he gave her more credit before because she deserved it, but she certainly didn't seem to when she was going on about him forgetting her birthday in the aftermath of a kid's death.

And I still disagree. It was made perfectly obvious that her "anger" was never about her birthday or lunch, and even during those exchanges he should've known that. One sarcastic remark about her birthday (a remark which, btw, was at least as sarcastic as her "House-Chiante" wine remark in S3, and far less mocking than her "[Mac] doesn't think you're funny" in S2) and it's a big deal that she won't stop going on about? She's made sarcastic remarks before, and he's always just rolled with them without assuming that she's shallow. Or genuinely angry. And given that she actually blew up into her monologue the one time it was hinted that she might only be angry about lunch, in RND, I think it's safe to say he should've gotten the message that her anger wasn't about lunch.

She did nothing differently up until RND that she'd never done before, and while I totally admit she's gotten unjustifiably angry with Danny quite a bit, it's never been over something as shallow as someone forgetting her birthday or skipping a lunch date. Even in S2 when they barely knew each other and she snapped at him about the "Montana" nickname he was able to guess that she was pissed about Mac thinking she couldn't handle gory crime scenes, not about her nickname. Comparatively, that's probably the one thing she's ever gotten pissy about that could even come close to being shallow (although, your boss not expecting much from you doesn't seem like the shallowest thing to take issue over). But now the only reason she could possibly be angry is because he missed her birthday, or lunch? He was practically stereotyping her, and yeah, reducing her to that stereotype.

Did he, or was he just kind of beaten down? Again, even if he'd been reducing her to that in his mind, it was based on her own behavior. How are you supposed to behave towards someone who gripes about her birthday and gets pissy over a missed lunch when you're grieving the loss of a child?

At least remembering what you know of that someone would be a good start. His reducing her to shallow wasn't based on her behaviour; her behaviour hadn't changed. It was based on what he thought girlfriends are usually like. Lindsay's never gotten pissed about anything half so shallow before, and prior to S4 he was usually able to guess at that. (Or ask her directly when he couldn't - Oedipus Hex - rather than tossing out off-the-mark assumptions.) Instead, this time he went with the "easy" conclusion, rather than the one that made sense given what he knew of her. Again, reducing. And I think he knew that's what he was doing, which is why he went silent the moment she called him on it.

But then what about the "it hasn't been the same" or whatever Danny said? I think they were still together, but there was a wall between them, and maybe a desire to keep things out of the workplace.

He said "things haven't been the same"; which I don't know, could still mean that they just weren't sleeping together. I mean, they were supposedly less concerned about keeping things out of the workplace when they were broken up in S4 than they were in early!S5. Which makes little sense to me. I could understand a wall, but not "silent treatment", which is actually what their few scenes often seemed like.

I know Carmine said something in one of his interviews about Danny starting to see Lindsay "wasn't all he thought she was" or something like that. Maybe he was starting to see that self-involved side of her more clearly once he was with her. I think Danny's walls come up once he's with someone... he's just waiting for them to not want to deal with him or find him more trouble than he's worth, so he tries to avoid that by keeping that side of himself from them, and in the process puts up a wall that drives the girlfriend away. Just a guess--it's hard to say because the only girlfriend we've really seen him with is Lindsay.

I don't see how he would've seen any self-involvement of Lindsay's if their relationship never touched on dealing with emotions or what not (again, Danny would sideline things every time the conversation ever got too personal). When would he get the chance to? But I remember that interview of Carmine's, and for me it explained so much about Danny's change in attitude toward Lindsay from S2 to S3 to S4. I mean, Lindsay wasn't really special until she started becoming a challenge because she'd said no. Hence the chasing her everywhere in S3; I think because she was a challenge, he made her and any possible sex/relationship with her into something bigger than it ever could be. And then, you know, reality hit: they got together, he obviously found out that no, she's not the second coming of Venus de Milo, she's an ordinary person (which he seemed to recognize in S2, really, hence the somewhat-lax reciprocal interest). He got bored. Maybe returned to the pattern he usually has with other girlfriends. Though yeah, we haven't seen him with any other girlfriends, only gotten hints that he has them. But I do think it's interesting that none of the vague girlfriend-hints ever give us the sense that he was especially fond of any of those girlfriends.

She was totally making excuses, to make herself feel better. "I tried to give you your space" = "I know I wasn't there for you but I assumed that was what you wanted." He wasn't accusing her, which probably actually did make her feel guilty. Had he accused her of anything, she would have gotten defensive.

Had she been able to guess that her not being there for him was the problem, they likely wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Like I said, this is why he'd've had to accuse her of something before she could get defensive or excuse-making -- because she wanted to find out what she'd done wrong, which implies she didn't know what she'd done wrong. I think by RND she was able to guess that she hadn't handled the situation well, but that doesn't mean she knew where she'd gone wrong.

Totally, because Danny in essentially an insecure child. Though I'm sure the fact that he had to chase after her to get an explanation did nothing to make him feel more secure.

The fact that he needed an explanation period, made it clear that whatever explanation Lindsay gave him wouldn't matter one bit; whether she'd given it to him right then when he proposed, or later that day, or months later. I think if he were interested or even aware of his relationship with Lindsay, rather than just interested in the idea of a relationship, he would've known right away why she was saying no.

In ruining the person they desire, they ruin themselves too--think Othello and to some extent Hamlet (though he had bigger problems, lol). I can't see any other reason for Lindsay to marry Danny other than the fact that she wants him and is willing to overlook the enormous insecurity the proposal is obviously coming from. Why else would she do it? She's not going to marry Danny just to make him feel better--no one is that self-sacrificing, certainly not Lindsay!! She wants him, and wants to believe what he's saying.

About ruining the person they desire vs. themselves - not necessarily (ack, I keep running back to Shakespeare:alienblush::lol; Oberon and Helena from Midsummer Night's Dream were fairly happy in the end - they got what they wanted, even if at the cost of Titania/Demetrius's free will. The novel "Dangerous Liaisons" is all about destroying their objects of desire (with comparatively little backfire on themselves - at least with the characters who were solely about the desire) [/geekiness]

Which would've left Danny more insecure/tying-himself-into-knots in "Green Piece" and afterwards: Lindsay going to Montana married to him, or Lindsay ditching him at the courthouse and going to Montana unmarried? No, I'm not under the impression that it was completely self-sacrificing; if she hadn't wanted to marry him, she wouldn't have married him, simple as that, no matter how twitchy it would've left Danny when she was gone. But if her decision was only about her, I think she would've waited to do things her way. 25-dollar shotgun wedding hours before she leaves the state, with two witnesses, to a guy she's so not sure cares half as much about her as he does about who she's carrying - not her way, I'm guessing, because I don't think that'd be anyone's ideal way. She saw a chance to both do something she wanted and leave Danny feeling better; and of course it helped that he was at least saying all the right things.

 

[Maya316]

Part 2!

I don't think she wanted to know what she'd done wrong so much as justify what she did.... That certainly seems logical to me, to you--to a normal person. But Danny isn't emotionally healthy.

She didn't know what she did. If she did they wouldn't have been in the mess - 'cause she wouldn't have bothered getting in the fight to begin with, and risk being dumped (well, dumped officially). If he said what she actually wanted to hear, wouldn't the relationship have been a little less cold by early season 5? Danny told her that she wasn't accountable (or at least, took all the blame on himself), and if that's what she wanted then she got it; she would've been completely fine with their relationship as it was. And probably wouldn't have waited weeks on end to tell him she was pregnant.

Yeah, Danny was in salvage mode - he just wanted to fix things (or at least, get Lindsay back which I think constituted as "fixing things" for him), and that's why he said the things he thought she wanted to hear. But that's why they miscommunicated - I don't think he even heard her "I tried to give you your space" line (he did kind of interrupt her). And I don't think his being in salvage-mode had anything to do with - I mean, doing the work to talk would still be salvaging things. She might not have ended up in bed with him, but they'd've had both points-of-view out in the open and would've been on better footing.

Not "I'm opposing you" so much as "I'm not going anywhere until you let me help you." I re-watched their scenes in the episode over the weekend and was once again struck by how passive Danny is when Flack shows up. I think it speaks to their relationship more than anything else--Danny clearly knows Flack means business, and Flack's actions showed he wasn't going anywhere. Danny rebelled a bit, but in a mostly passive way--not answering his phone. The one time he actively rebelled--taking Rikki out of the alley--he caved pretty quickly.

Yeah, I remember the pasivity; but that's why I think it had more to do with the fact that Danny never thought to rebel in the first place, rather than that he was thinking of rebelling, but changed his mind when he saw Flack being stubborn. The two times he actually rebelled were when Flack was trying to make him do things he didn't want to. Rikki and the phone thing - Flack was obviously calling to tell Danny to call in the stolen gun, Danny didn't want to do that. And I think if he hadn't wanted to let Flack helped, or really would have preferred to do things on his own, we would've seen more of the rebellion.

Well, neither is really acceptable, but in terms of being understandable, one is reacting to an issue you have (Stella relating to the woman who claimed she was attacked) and one is using what someone else went through to have an emotional outburst/let off steam. Given that Lindsay and Stella weren't even that close at that point (or ever, IMO), I think it was more than a little drama queen/attention whore behavior from Lindsay.

Hm, yeah, both were bad behaviours so I guess neither is truly acceptable. But as far as understanding goes, I can totally see both. Stella you already explained. As for Lindsay...is it really only okay to stress about a terrible incident someone's gone through if that person is your close friend? It can't just get to Lindsay because Stella was the first person to be friendly to her on her first day, or because the Frankie-thing is something that no one should have to go through? It's not that mind-boggling to me. It seems like basic compassion. Concern shouldn't be exclusive to best friends. Personal opinions entirely aside, she may not be the best at reaching out to people, and she may not be that close to many of them, but we usually do see her get stressed/concerned when something happens to someone on the team. Even if it doesn't always get to the point of emotional outbursts. [Stella, "All Access"; Mac, "One Wedding and a Funeral"(when it came out that the puzzles were about him); Hawkes, "Raising Shane"; Danny, "Trapped"/"Run Silent"/"Child's Play"/"Snow Day"; Angell, self-explanatory; even Flack, though she sold him out in "Consequences", she was stressing about it beforehand...and also, "Charge of this Post"]

Well, sure, and I think they were kind of trying to create sympathy for both characters, but just ended up muddying the waters... I just think it wasn't handled very well.

Exactly. Calling Danny out for cheating would've painted him definitively as a "bad guy", and I think that's what they wanted to avoid. I don't think it was ever about the cheating. But especially in 4.15 and 4.16, they did a lot to paint it so that Lindsay would seem justified in chewing him out for what she did: pulling away (forgetting her birthday, her sad-look when he left the lab after the birthday-scene, the lunch thing, and of course Rikki, to drive the point home in case people Didn't Get It Yet ). Naturally they forgot to show Lindsay giving him a concrete reason not to pull away. But even if sloppily, it was all orchestrated so that Lindsay wouldn't seem in the wrong. And they let the fans do the rest.

I can sort of see it from that angle, but at the same time, I think her "I know you" line was out of line. It was kind of cruel, given that if his response really was a question mark for her, she didn't know how he'd react. Why not just say, "I needed some time to figure this out" rather than "I know you," which indicates she wasn't planning on telling him anytime soon--and if she didn't absolutely have to because they work together, might never have told him.

Well she might've had several reasons for thinking he might back away, and it really only takes one to plant enough doubt. And if already doubting, I think it's easier to prepare for the "no" answer than getting your hopes up that he might decide to stick around. That's what I think "I know you" was about; a defense mechanism. The way she said it was out of line, yeah, although I don't think she was just flinging out whatever she thought would hurt him the most right then. (If she was wondering what his response would be or was in doubt, I don't think it was because she was just picking any reason under the sun for why he might walk - she was doing it based on what she does know of him, and of their relationship.)

That's not really the problem--it's more the "I know you" line, indicating a judgment of him, and a real reluctance to tell him at all.

Her leaving him with the ultrasound pic, for me, scratches out the notion that she never planned on telling him, but I don't think she planned on telling him that day.

I think he was trying, but was probably pretty confused about what he wanted or how he was supposed to be feeling then. I think he felt bad, because I think Danny's gut instinct is always to feel bad when he's called out on something, but I also think that he was testing the waters to see how pissed/upset she was... how she much she cared, basically.

She'd already told him directly that she loved him. He'd never once said it back. Testing the waters to see if she cared at that point was the equivalent of expecting her to hang out with him like everything was normal, even if it hurt. Yeah, I don't think he actually got that that's what he was doing - I agree he probably was testing to see if she cared enough. But I don't think he was really factoring in her feelings, aside from maybe seeing them as an added reason for why she'd hang out with him.

I think she was ready to buy into the fantasy by "Green Piece," and he was saying a lot of the things she wanted to hear... while at the same time, I think his insecurities and fears were very obvious, too. She just chose to overlook them. If someone offers you exactly what you want, even if a nagging voice is telling you something is off or it might not be a good thing, how long are you going to be able to say no for?

Actually, I think his insecurity, at least at that moment in "Green Piece" ended up being a huge part of the reason she said yes this time. He clearly didn't believe anymore that she wasn't going anywhere, and like you said earlier, there wasn't much that would convince him of that aside from concrete proof that she/Lucy couldn't go anywhere. The proof she gave him that worked in "Triangle" wasn't flying anymore because she clearly was going somewhere - Montana - so he got the next best thing: concrete proof.

There wasn't that much of a fantasy, if you ask me - he'd been reacting solely to her belly for at least half the year by then, just the same way he asked all those questions about the baby in "Triangle" before he proposed. And I don't think 30 seconds worth of him spouting Harlequin quotes would've made her forget that, even if they were exactly what she wanted to hear. I think she did want to marry him, and that was the other part of the reason she said yes. And maybe she was hoping he meant what he was saying. But she wasn't missing his insecurity or the big picture.

The fact that he kept trying to get that explanation out of her indicated he cared. And the fact that she was able to manipulate him into taking the mother two episodes later indicated he still cared about her. I agree that maybe she thought it wasn't that big a deal to him initially, but at the same time, she'd seen how emotional Danny was for like a year. She'd seen him get hurt several times (RSRD, Heroes). It's hard to believe she didn't have some inkling about how sensitive he was.

Knowing how sensitive he is wouldn't translate into assuming he's sensitive about her romantically, especially when he'd given little to no indication of that. His brother being hospitalized and best friend getting killed was more than a little different from being blown off by a girl he only half-liked (romantically) to begin with. Lindsay had no reason to assume he'd be anywhere near as injured by that as he was by Aiden/Louie; even if he pressed a little in "LRC". Nor do I think she really got much reason to assume he was still interested after that - she got Stella to let her off the hook a few episodes after "Hex" (and two years later got Mac to do the same thing), without assuming that either Mac or Stella had a crush on her.

Well, it benefits her legally, too. But I think if she didn't love him, if she didn't want him to be hers--she wouldn't have gone through with the marriage. Her flirting with him in "Grounds for Deception" in the lab makes it very clear that she's still really into him.

Wait, I'm confused about how the marriage benefits Lindsay.... I mean, it helps that Lucy was born in wedlock, and two people taking care of a daughter is always much better than one, but I don't think anything huge would've changed if Lindsay and Danny had stayed unmarried. She might be glad that she has a stronger legal claim on Danny than anyone else, but given the divorce rate in the Western Hemisphere (and the sketchy, unhappy marriages they routinely trot out even in CSI-verse), it's not exactly the strongest claim in existence. I agree, it's very clear that she's into him and wanted badly to marry him, but it's equally clear (to her too, I think) that he's not half as into her and wouldn't have married her if it wasn't for Lucy and her impromptu trip to Montana. She doesn't have him, at least not the way she wants him; married or not. There was only one undeniable reward that came out of that whole wedding/marriage-thing - a legal claim on Lucy, and it was Danny who wanted that, because Lindsay already had it. So I think it benefitted him more.

Well, the comment about the kindergarten was made around Mac, and I do think Danny seeks his attention/solace.

True, there are some people Danny just seems to easily feel more comfortable with. But I don't think he usually needs that much prompting before he vents about something that's bugging him.

I don't know... I think it indicated Danny was thinking that if he was really, really nice to her, she'd want to be with him. Again, I think it's kind of indicative of him being mistreated at some key stage in his life--he only seemed/seems really interested when she's treating him like dirt.

He only seems really interested when she's stepping out on him. I can see "Love Run Cold" as treating him like dirt, maybe even "RND" a little because she shouldn't have shouted. But I really can't see it as treating him like dirt every time she decides she's going to walk and stay away, especially given his complete lack of interest when she's actually there. Lindsay was all but throwing herself at him throughout S2 and it never inspired Danny with a strong interest in being with her (even if they did joke around about dinner and drinks and stuff). She backs off and that's when it becomes about being super-nice and chasing her all over the place so she'll want to be with him? We still don't know who set the LRC date, and yeah, standing him up was not cool, but in regards to the above kind of behaviour, I know my first question would be "why not when I was actually interested?" And I think it would indicate more a need to have things be like they were before (ie, her falling over herself trying to impress him) than a serious interest in her.

I don't know--I still maintain no woman is going to say yes to a proposal that starts with the guy asking about mental illness in her family, no matter how "cute" he's being. And it was too close to when she told him about the baby--it was so obvious that was why he was proposing. But later on down the road, she could fool herself a little. He was clearly interested--even if it was in the baby.

But he was clearly interested in the baby only; that never changed once in the seven months (and seven episodes) between "Triangle" and "Green Piece". We never once saw them connect (or even talk) about anything that wasn't related to the baby and I don't believe it was any different when they were offscreen and alone together. I don't think she would've been able to miss the obvious. There were two occasions when I think she would've had opportunity to fool herself - when Danny said I love you in "Triangle", and with his proposal in "Green Piece". With the first, they were actually still talking about the proposal - it was still up for grabs, so she could've said yes then, had him and a better dream wedding (at least, a far less rushed one) if that's all she wanted. With the second, even setting aside the much-less ideal conditions, there's no way 30 seconds of a romantic proposal could've been enough to drown out seven months of him only focusing on the baby. There was no real difference, so I think she would've said yes the first time if all she cared about was marrying him.

Someone got pregnant in HP? :wtf: Shows how much I follow that fandom. :lol: But unless it's a soap and someone is actually doing that, I don't know why that would be the first assumption anyone would have about the woman's motivation... especially in this day and age.

The Tonks-Remus Lupin-Sirius Black fan catfights from HP-fandom were enough to scar me for life :lol: (and that was just the one canon pregnancy.) It bugs me because it shouldn't be an assumption anyone would make when a woman gets pregnant at all. But there are some catty fans out there :shifty:

The problem here is that we didn't see a lot of them as a couple before things went south in season four. I think he was sweet/supportive in "Boo." I think Danny is afraid to open himself up because he knows how difficult he is emotionally--and was probably told that at some formative stage in his life--and assumes that someone dealing with that in a relationship would immediately want to head for the hills.

I don't remember any particular moments from "Boo", except for one where I think he might've put his hand on Lindsay's shoulder after they found the girl's skeleton.

Yeah, it makes things hard to define since we didn't see much of their relationship in early-S4. Although I think it's fair to assume the little we did see can serve as a mini-blueprint of what their relationship was like, so I'd only expect to see more instances of Lindsay trying to engage Danny on an emotional level. I too think Danny is afraid to completely open himself up like that to a girlfriend (I also think the girlfriend part is especially more important, because he seemed to find it a little easier to open up to Lindsay when she was just his friend), so I get that. But if he's afraid to open up emotionally (and therefore doesn't), it's not Lindsay's fault that she can't engage him on an emotional level - both when they were dating and even now, really.

He was clearly uncomfortable in "The Deep" with her expressing concern--though I think he was with Hawkes, too, when Hawkes thanked him. ... So I don't think his reaction was so specific to her in that case.

He was uncomfortable, but he managed a "don't worry about it" for Hawkes in "The Deep", and the exact same response would've been perfectly appropriate for Lindsay when she was going on about not being able to do anything. I know he's not good with concern or praise; and yeah, I've noticed how the others seem to have recognized his low self-esteem. But to be honest, I only remember an actual brush-off with Lindsay in 4.02; with Hawkes it was one quick acknowledgement and then changed the subject to a joke. With Stella in "Thing about Heroes", he just changed the subject. Lindsay got the "stop goofing off". No I don't think it was specific to her, in that he wouldn't have avoided the praise of anyone else. I just don't think he would've responded that same way to anyone else.

And as I've said in "Child's Play," he was already on his way out. He was clearly more at ease with her when joking around, like in "You Only Die Once" and "Commuted Sentences," when his emotional vulnerability wasn't right there in the foreground. It makes me wonder if he didn't pull away from her after Ruben's death to try to shield her from that side of himself--the side he assumed would send her running for the hills.

He was on his way out in "CP", but he heard her when she came in because he reacted to hearing her. He actually made a "leave me alone" kind of hand-motion when she said his name. I get it if he was too upset to talk right then, but he knew perfectly well that she was in the morgue for him, obviously to engage on an emotional level. It's not so much that he rebuffs her, it's more - well, if he sidelines concern, brushes off praise, rebuffs her when he's tormented, I'm not seeing many other things she could try engaging with him emotionally over. He is much easier with her when they're joking around, I think that's because that's what they've always done - and yeah, because the emotions aren't really touched on. Arguments about Batman are fun, but they don't get personal (interestingly, the one time it even got close to becoming personal - in "Commuted Sentences" when Lindsay tried asking if she'd impressed him with her slingshot skills - he switched the subject back to business).

Sorry I had to cut out parts of your post! It was the only way to make everything fit :alienblush:

 

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I can see how storming-off would draw more attention than quietly leaving, because it lets people know you're pissed. But it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to get attention if you're literally leaving the room where all the attention is (and trying to shake off the one person who followed you from that room), so I took it to mean she wanted out of there more than she wanted attention. If she wanted that, she'd've stuck around.

Storming off is totally dramatic, and I don't buy for a second she didn't want Danny to follow her. I think she did. She did end up stopping to tell him what was going on eventually, suggesting his attention wasn't unwelcome. She could have said, "Look, I need to deal with this on my own--go back and finish the interrogation." She didn't.

I went back and looked at this episode a few weeks ago, and he definitely made the comment in front of Adam in the lab, not Angell

I could have sworn he said something about it when they were in the actual kindergarten and Mac kind of looked at him but didn't say anything. Anyway, yeah, I guess he was venting, but also reacting to something directly related to the case. It's not like he came in out of the blue and said, "Gee, I'm so down about Ruben today."

No we don't, and I don't think she actively tried to reach out to him either; and yeah, shame on her for that. But again with the sullenness in 4.14, it told me that she badly wanted him to come to her, rather than she was dreading the idea that he might come to her.

She wasn't avoiding him, but she wasn't going out of her way to get him to talk, either. Even her eventual efforts were about everything but directly saying to Danny, "I know you're not okay and I want to help." She told Mac she wasn't very good at this kind of thing and then never pushed herself to make the effort. I just don't think it was up to Danny to come to her in the hopes that she'd want to listen to him. As for him going to other people... Mac is someone he's always gone to, and Flack came to him. Adam happening to be in the room when he vented doesn't really factor in that much one way or another, since Mac was his intended audience.

Danny didn't need to appeal to Mac, he simply wanted to - it was IAB that needed to be convinced (or not convinced) all along. Danny could've just shut down the moment Mac handed him that card and then run to IAB later anyway. Mac would've had no idea what Danny was up to, or why he'd done it, or why he hadn't felt the need to convince Mac first. But Danny made it clear that he had a problem with Mac thinking he was guilty.

Well, yeah--Danny kind of made Mac into some sort of surrogate father figure in the first season. And Mac was the one leading the investigation, too. And he's Danny's boss. There are a lot of reasons that Danny's appeal to Mac and his desperation for Mac to believe him made sense.

Yeah it is, if you don't have a problem venting to/in front of other people who haven't reached out to you either. I know there's nothing solidly concrete to suggest that Danny was avoiding her. But what gets me is that even when the show kind of acknowledged she'd welcome him saying something about Ruben, and that he was okay mentioning it to others who weren't involved, he didn't even hint at it with Lindsay, or around Lindsay. That makes me think it was a pointed shut-out (maybe not on his part, but definitely with the writing).

The show only acknowledged that once, though, in "Child's Play." In every other instance, she either wasn't trying to get him to talk or was talking about other things.

I agree that it was a very low period for him, I just don't think that had much to do with why he didn't fight back. We've seen him at lower points, imo (or at least, points where he should have been lower), and he's had plenty of fight in him during those periods.

Aside from when Louie was beat up, I cannot imagine what could be worse for someone than feeling you're responsible for the death of a child. So no... I don't think we have seen him at lower points. And I think it's interesting that in other cases, he had a kind of desperate energy about him--and with Ruben's death he just shut down.

It's also the one issue you can bring up that will undoubtedly make you seem like a "clingy" girlfriend, especially in a fight like that. And given that's the image of herself Lindsay seemed a little desperate to avoid, I can't be surprised that one of the first things she tried to make clear was that she wasn't jealous. I think she did consider herself his girlfriend, right up until sometime mid-RND; but if she'd picked up on the fact that he was "cheating", I think it would've been impossible for her not to pick up on all the other "we're over" signals he'd been sending for a long time. And quite frankly, when it becomes obvious that the guy doesn't think you have a hold on him anymore, it's just flat-out embarrassing to make yourself look like the jealous ex who can't let go. I mean, Lindsay left herself open enough to humiliation in that monologue without adding that to the mix.

But she used the word "girlfriend." She certainly seemed to think she was his girlfriend--so if she thought he'd slept with another woman, how could she not bring it up? It's not a matter of jealousy or not--sleeping with someone else just does not fly if you're in a relationship with someone. So it's really hard for me to imagine she wouldn't bring it up--even if just to allude to the fact that she knew--if she did in fact know.

Also, I was more referring to the fact that we know Danny at least thinks Lindsay knows about Rikki. I don't know when else he would've gotten that idea, except for the one time Lindsay actually hinted at it.

And maybe that's true, though I took that as Danny thinking she knew and kind of being a clueless guy about it. And maybe we're supposed to assume she knew--I think if that's the case, it was handled really, really badly. I cannot imagine her not bringing it up if she knew--that's just not how real people behave.

Flack's response was also the concise, easy explanation for why Danny should've known better than to try shutting him out - and why Flack would've had every right to get angry if Danny had actually managed to. He's his friend. He should know that Flack cares about what he's going through. I know Danny's insecure, but I have to think that after thirty years he's picked up on the fact that shutting out people who care about you hurts them.

Then why did Danny tell Flack he should have minded his own business? I think Danny was looking for that reassurance from Flack, in the same way he was looking for it in "On the Job" and "Comes Around." For whatever reason, Danny does seem to look to Flack for reassurance in general, and even though he wasn't in a place to be reassured, I think he needed to hear how much Flack cares about him and that it wasn't his fault.

Flack managed to push his way in, and that's what Lindsay should've done, so that's on her. But while I don't know how loosely they were using the terms "boyfriend/girlfriend" with each other, I think it's fair to say Lindsay was in a position that would allow Danny to reasonably expect her to care about him and what he was going through.

Agreed--I think he did expect that... and she, not being good with that kind of thing, hung back, figuring emotional, needy Danny would just come to her. And I think each was waiting for the other to come to them, and that drove a big wedge between them.

And yeah, while I can see how S3 might've made him feel sketchy, I still maintain that if that's how he felt he shouldn't have entered the relationship in the first place. Or at least should've told her how things would stand from the beginning - no emotional involvement.]

But see, I don't think it's that he wanted no emotional involvement. I just think he got burned to the point in season three where he couldn't trust her. He cared about her--hence getting into the relationship that she initiated--but trust is something that has to be earned, and she broke that down in season three. It probably wasn't even conscious on his part, the pulling away and the walls. Look how hard Flack has to fight to get through to him sometimes, and Danny definitely trusts Flack.

As his whatever, she never did one thing that would've contradicted the idea that she cared about him; in fact did a lot to back that idea up. It's sketchy because Lindsay never did her part in reaching out. But since I so don't buy that Danny was completely ignorant about Lindsay caring for him, shutting her out (and then apparently dumping her without telling her she'd been dumped) was wrong and he should know that.

I don't think he so much dumped her in his mind as he did pull away from her further when she didn't reach out to him. If you were in a relationship with someone and they didn't offer you any emotional support after a trauma, wouldn't you start to resent them? I think that's human nature. I think his actions could even be interpreted as a cry for attention. "You're not going to see if I'm okay? Fine. I'm not going to do anything for your birthday." Childish, but Danny is very childish.

And I still disagree. It was made perfectly obvious that her "anger" was never about her birthday or lunch, and even during those exchanges he should've known that. One sarcastic remark about her birthday (a remark which, btw, was at least as sarcastic as her "House-Chiante" wine remark in S3, and far less mocking than her "[Mac] doesn't think you're funny" in S2) and it's a big deal that she won't stop going on about? She's made sarcastic remarks before, and he's always just rolled with them without assuming that she's shallow. Or genuinely angry.

But those times were different! He wasn't grieving the loss of a child whose death he felt responsible for. I'm sure her gripes were amusing/endearing then, but here he is, hurting over the loss of a child, and what is his girlfriend talking about? Her birthday. She's not talking about what's important, the real issue, so yes, I absolutely think he was right to interpret that behavior at face value. If you've suffered a terrible loss and your friend/significant other is going on about his/her birthday as though nothing had happened and you didn't, say, have a big, major, huge reason for not having their birthday on your mind, wouldn't you be peeved? Wouldn't you think that person was a bit shallow? I sure would.

And given that she actually blew up into her monologue the one time it was hinted that she might only be angry about lunch, in RND, I think it's safe to say he should've gotten the message that her anger wasn't about lunch.

I don't think he thought it was about the lunch--that was just his way of expressing frustration about her obvious irritation with him.

She did nothing differently up until RND that she'd never done before, and while I totally admit she's gotten unjustifiably angry with Danny quite a bit, it's never been over something as shallow as someone forgetting her birthday or skipping a lunch date. Even in S2 when they barely knew each other and she snapped at him about the "Montana" nickname he was able to guess that she was pissed about Mac thinking she couldn't handle gory crime scenes, not about her nickname. Comparatively, that's probably the one thing she's ever gotten pissy about that could even come close to being shallow (although, your boss not expecting much from you doesn't seem like the shallowest thing to take issue over). But now the only reason she could possibly be angry is because he missed her birthday, or lunch? He was practically stereotyping her, and yeah, reducing her to that stereotype.

Because she had acted just like that stereotype. She bitched about her birthday but couldn't ask him how he was doing. She asked him to lunch and got pissy immediately after. Maybe these were her awkward attempts to try to reach out to him, but I can totally get how he'd miss that and wouldn't think, "Gee, she's griping about her birthday so I'll confide in her about what's really on my mind." Don't want to be labeled a shallow, clingy girlfriend? Don't act like one.

At least remembering what you know of that someone would be a good start. His reducing her to shallow wasn't based on her behaviour; her behaviour hadn't changed. It was based on what he thought girlfriends are usually like. Lindsay's never gotten pissed about anything half so shallow before, and prior to S4 he was usually able to guess at that. (Or ask her directly when he couldn't - Oedipus Hex - rather than tossing out off-the-mark assumptions.) Instead, this time he went with the "easy" conclusion, rather than the one that made sense given what he knew of her. Again, reducing. And I think he knew that's what he was doing, which is why he went silent the moment she called him on it.

But Lindsay has never really been there for him, has she? Aside from the one incident with the DNA, she's never reached out to him or shown herself to be particularly concerned with his well being. When she was going through her ordeal, she totally shut him out. And then when the time came for her to really step it up, she didn't. I think it kind of goes back to Carmine's comment about Lindsay "not being all Danny thought she was." Here was this pivotal time for him, when he really, really needed her, and she couldn't be bothered to reach out because it was hard.

He said "things haven't been the same"; which I don't know, could still mean that they just weren't sleeping together. I mean, they were supposedly less concerned about keeping things out of the workplace when they were broken up in S4 than they were in early!S5. Which makes little sense to me. I could understand a wall, but not "silent treatment", which is actually what their few scenes often seemed like.

I guess I don't understand how an adult guy could think he's in a relationship when he and the woman aren't sleeping together. That's just not how relationships work... so I'd think if they weren't, he would have said, "We got back together but it didn't last" rather than "it hasn't been the same." What I think happened is that they had been sleeping together, but were increasingly emotionally distant from each other because neither trusted the other one.

I don't see how he would've seen any self-involvement of Lindsay's if their relationship never touched on dealing with emotions or what not (again, Danny would sideline things every time the conversation ever got too personal). When would he get the chance to? But I remember that interview of Carmine's, and for me it explained so much about Danny's change in attitude toward Lindsay from S2 to S3 to S4. I mean, Lindsay wasn't really special until she started becoming a challenge because she'd said no. Hence the chasing her everywhere in S3; I think because she was a challenge, he made her and any possible sex/relationship with her into something bigger than it ever could be. And then, you know, reality hit: they got together, he obviously found out that no, she's not the second coming of Venus de Milo, she's an ordinary person (which he seemed to recognize in S2, really, hence the somewhat-lax reciprocal interest). He got bored. Maybe returned to the pattern he usually has with other girlfriends. Though yeah, we haven't seen him with any other girlfriends, only gotten hints that he has them. But I do think it's interesting that none of the vague girlfriend-hints ever give us the sense that he was especially fond of any of those girlfriends.

I think that all goes back to Danny's feelings about himself. He follows a similar pattern with Mac, or did in season one. He would crave Mac's attention/praise, but when he got it, never seemed happy or to know what to do with it. Then he'd do something that he knew would piss Mac off and try like hell to get back into Mac's good graces. It says more about Danny's self-esteem than what he really thinks about Mac or Lindsay or the girlfriends he has had. He needs that affirmation so desperately, but once he has it he doesn't think he deserves it and it freaks him out so he does something to mess it up.

Had she been able to guess that her not being there for him was the problem, they likely wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Like I said, this is why he'd've had to accuse her of something before she could get defensive or excuse-making -- because she wanted to find out what she'd done wrong, which implies she didn't know what she'd done wrong. I think by RND she was able to guess that she hadn't handled the situation well, but that doesn't mean she knew where she'd gone wrong.

Maybe... though that comment she made in "Child's Play" about "not being good at this kind of thing" suggests to me that she knew exactly what he needed but was able to delude herself into thinking that if he didn't come to her, she didn't need to go to him. I think she's kind of an idiot if she didn't know that emotional, needy Danny probably needed the kind of support she didn't try to give him, but I guess it's possible. It's hard for me to think she really thought he needed his space given that that was what she brought up in both the monologue and the PF phone call. I think she was maybe waiting for him to contradict her or acknowledge that he knew she tried something, but that was her agenda. His was just making sure she wasn't mad at him anymore.

The fact that he needed an explanation period, made it clear that whatever explanation Lindsay gave him wouldn't matter one bit; whether she'd given it to him right then when he proposed, or later that day, or months later. I think if he were interested or even aware of his relationship with Lindsay, rather than just interested in the idea of a relationship, he would've known right away why she was saying no.

Sure, but again, you're talking about a rational human being--not a guy who is afraid of losing his child. The one person who will love him unconditionally. And that is what Danny has always, always been after.

Which would've left Danny more insecure/tying-himself-into-knots in "Green Piece" and afterwards: Lindsay going to Montana married to him, or Lindsay ditching him at the courthouse and going to Montana unmarried? No, I'm not under the impression that it was completely self-sacrificing; if she hadn't wanted to marry him, she wouldn't have married him, simple as that, no matter how twitchy it would've left Danny when she was gone. But if her decision was only about her, I think she would've waited to do things her way.

I'm still not so convinced that she cared about the way the wedding played out. She wants Danny--and if she's that country girl tom boy stereotype we've been led to believe she is, a big church wedding isn't going to be her thing anyway. There's always the possibility that she wanted some of the security, too--after all, knowing he's legally obligated to not flake on taking care of the baby is probably something of a relief to her, too.

 

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She didn't know what she did. If she did they wouldn't have been in the mess - 'cause she wouldn't have bothered getting in the fight to begin with, and risk being dumped (well, dumped officially). If he said what she actually wanted to hear, wouldn't the relationship have been a little less cold by early season 5?

It's hard because basically most of what happened between them from after PF to The Box happened off screen... and again, the writers were going to change directions. I imagine his walls were still up, because I doubt she actually tried to get him to talk about Ruben after they got back together either.

Yeah, Danny was in salvage mode - he just wanted to fix things (or at least, get Lindsay back which I think constituted as "fixing things" for him), and that's why he said the things he thought she wanted to hear. But that's why they miscommunicated - I don't think he even heard her "I tried to give you your space" line (he did kind of interrupt her). And I don't think his being in salvage-mode had anything to do with - I mean, doing the work to talk would still be salvaging things. She might not have ended up in bed with him, but they'd've had both points-of-view out in the open and would've been on better footing.

But sex is how Danny tries to fix things. It's what he did with Rikki--the minute she indicated she wanted that from him, his clothes were off, because if there's one thing Danny seems to know he's good for, it's sex. This is one of the reasons I think he may have been sexually abused--most guys want sex for sex's sake. Danny uses it as a tool to get something out of it emotionally. It really felt like he didn't think Lindsay cared about what he had to say or his POV--which fair enough... that's basically what she communicated when she said she didn't know if she'd ever want to talk at the beginning of the episode.

Yeah, I remember the pasivity; but that's why I think it had more to do with the fact that Danny never thought to rebel in the first place, rather than that he was thinking of rebelling, but changed his mind when he saw Flack being stubborn. The two times he actually rebelled were when Flack was trying to make him do things he didn't want to.

Maybe, but I think that's kind of the way he is with Flack. When it comes down to it, he knows Flack means business. He was the same way in RSRD when Flack looked him right in the eye and said, "We're not going anywhere" after Mac asked Flack to watch over Danny. It was a reassurance, but also a command. I don't think Danny wanted to bring Rikki in at all--but he knew Flack meant business and that he really didn't have a choice.

As for Lindsay...is it really only okay to stress about a terrible incident someone's gone through if that person is your close friend? ...Personal opinions entirely aside, she may not be the best at reaching out to people, and she may not be that close to many of them, but we usually do see her get stressed/concerned when something happens to someone on the team. Even if it doesn't always get to the point of emotional outbursts. [Stella, "All Access"; Mac, "One Wedding and a Funeral"(when it came out that the puzzles were about him); Hawkes, "Raising Shane"; Danny, "Trapped"/"Run Silent"/"Child's Play"/"Snow Day"; Angell, self-explanatory; even Flack, though she sold him out in "Consequences", she was stressing about it beforehand...and also, "Charge of this Post"]

I don't remember her being particularly stressed out in those other instances, save for "Snow Day" when Danny was in pretty real danger, and a bit in RSRD. But regardless... it's one thing to be concerned, it's another to go off on a suspect and make a drama queen exit from an interrogation. There's being concerned, and then there's making it All About You, which Lindsay did in "All Access."

Exactly. Calling Danny out for cheating would've painted him definitively as a "bad guy", and I think that's what they wanted to avoid. I don't think it was ever about the cheating. But especially in 4.15 and 4.16, they did a lot to paint it so that Lindsay would seem justified in chewing him out for what she did: pulling away (forgetting her birthday, her sad-look when he left the lab after the birthday-scene, the lunch thing, and of course Rikki, to drive the point home in case people Didn't Get It Yet ). Naturally they forgot to show Lindsay giving him a concrete reason not to pull away. But even if sloppily, it was all orchestrated so that Lindsay wouldn't seem in the wrong. And they let the fans do the rest.

Well, that's why it was kind of mishandled... they both weren't really the bad guy but sort of didn't react right. Things needed to be a little more clear cut. I get going for realism where no one is totally right or totally wrong, but things needed to be a bit less murky, that's for sure.

Well she might've had several reasons for thinking he might back away, and it really only takes one to plant enough doubt. And if already doubting, I think it's easier to prepare for the "no" answer than getting your hopes up that he might decide to stick around. That's what I think "I know you" was about; a defense mechanism. The way she said it was out of line, yeah, although I don't think she was just flinging out whatever she thought would hurt him the most right then.

But he doesn't bail when things are tough for her--season three proved just how tenacious he was, even with no guarantees or encouragement from her. It's when things are hard for him that he shuts down, though I still wonder if she'd reached out to him how things might have been different. The way she treats him proves she doesn't know him at all--that was a barbed comment meant to imply he's irresponsible. In light of what happened with Ruben, it was doubly cruel.

Her leaving him with the ultrasound pic, for me, scratches out the notion that she never planned on telling him, but I don't think she planned on telling him that day.

Giving him an ultrasound picture doesn't really prove one way or another that she was planning on telling him. If anything, it was her "proof" after his dumb "Are you sure?" question.

She'd already told him directly that she loved him. He'd never once said it back. Testing the waters to see if she cared at that point was the equivalent of expecting her to hang out with him like everything was normal, even if it hurt. Yeah, I don't think he actually got that that's what he was doing - I agree he probably was testing to see if she cared enough. But I don't think he was really factoring in her feelings, aside from maybe seeing them as an added reason for why she'd hang out with him.

Probably not, though if he was testing her feelings they had to be on his mind. I think he was still processing it, trying to figure out if it was real or not. Supposition, but I have a feeling a lot of people have told Danny they loved him and then either not meant it or walked away from him.

The proof she gave him that worked in "Triangle" wasn't flying anymore because she clearly was going somewhere - Montana - so he got the next best thing: concrete proof.

True, though she didn't marry him so that poor Danny would feel better. She married him because she loved him and wanted him and he was saying what she wanted to hear. I do think she probably married him right then to assuage his insecurities, but she still wouldn't have done that if she hadn't wanted him. We've seen numerous times that Lindsay is not a selfless person--it wasn't just for him.

There wasn't that much of a fantasy, if you ask me - he'd been reacting solely to her belly for at least half the year by then, just the same way he asked all those questions about the baby in "Triangle" before he proposed. And I don't think 30 seconds worth of him spouting Harlequin quotes would've made her forget that, even if they were exactly what she wanted to hear. I think she did want to marry him, and that was the other part of the reason she said yes. And maybe she was hoping he meant what he was saying. But she wasn't missing his insecurity or the big picture.

The lines were what she wanted to hear, and he knew that, because Danny has gotten good at telling people what they want to hear and giving them what he thinks they want. I don't think she missed the insecurity--she's played on it before, so she knows it's there. Maybe she thinks the baby is enough to bring them together. I think he does. And she loves him--she probably thinks that will make a difference, too.

Knowing how sensitive he is wouldn't translate into assuming he's sensitive about her romantically, especially when he'd given little to no indication of that. His brother being hospitalized and best friend getting killed was more than a little different from being blown off by a girl he only half-liked (romantically) to begin with. Lindsay had no reason to assume he'd be anywhere near as injured by that as he was by Aiden/Louie; even if he pressed a little in "LRC". Nor do I think she really got much reason to assume he was still interested after that - she got Stella to let her off the hook a few episodes after "Hex" (and two years later got Mac to do the same thing), without assuming that either Mac or Stella had a crush on her.

Come on--he'd chased after her in LRC, even tried to get her to go grab lunch with him after she stood him up, called after her as she walked away... he was the picture of pathetic in LRC. There was reason enough to assume he had feelings, and that two episodes later she guilted him into doing something for her makes it look like she knew he had those feelings. And while of course he wouldn't be as injured as he was by the death of a friend or near death of his brother, sensitive is sensitive. Danny's just a vulnerable person, period, and by third season I think that was readily apparent to her.

Wait, I'm confused about how the marriage benefits Lindsay.... I mean, it helps that Lucy was born in wedlock, and two people taking care of a daughter is always much better than one, but I don't think anything huge would've changed if Lindsay and Danny had stayed unmarried.

Well, from a practical standpoint, she's got a legal claim on him when it comes to Lucy, probably a relief for someone who thought she was facing the future as a single mother. That being said, I don't think she was being practical about it--people in love aren't generally practical. She loves Danny, and he was offering her everything she wants. I don't think you can underestimate the draw of that. At the end of the day, Lindsay just wants him. To look like she could really have him--that's a powerful, powerful lure. And I think she bought into it.

True, there are some people Danny just seems to easily feel more comfortable with. But I don't think he usually needs that much prompting before he vents about something that's bugging him.

Not that much--but a little. Lindsay didn't once, not once, bring up Ruben's name to him. Not a single time. Mac, Flack, even Angell approached him and no, they didn't have to do much work to get him to talk. Kinda makes you think if Lindsay had done anything--even made one small effort to get him to talk--she might have gotten through, too.

He only seems really interested when she's stepping out on him. I can see "Love Run Cold" as treating him like dirt, maybe even "RND" a little because she shouldn't have shouted. But I really can't see it as treating him like dirt every time she decides she's going to walk and stay away, especially given his complete lack of interest when she's actually there. Lindsay was all but throwing herself at him throughout S2 and it never inspired Danny with a strong interest in being with her (even if they did joke around about dinner and drinks and stuff).

He responded to her in season two. He met her for drinks in the bar to watch Mac. He came to do her experiment and said he wanted dinner, not just drinks for helping. She was definitely doing the chasing, but he responded.

She backs off and that's when it becomes about being super-nice and chasing her all over the place so she'll want to be with him? We still don't know who set the LRC date, and yeah, standing him up was not cool, but in regards to the above kind of behaviour, I know my first question would be "why not when I was actually interested?" And I think it would indicate more a need to have things be like they were before (ie, her falling over herself trying to impress him) than a serious interest in her.

Possibly--Danny does like/need attention. One of the reasons I think he and Flack are so close is because Flack clearly adores the hell out of him and makes no bones about that. But obviously Danny was willing to take it to the next level with Lindsay since he went out on that date in LRC. So I don't think he was just leading her on so she'd stay interested.

But he was clearly interested in the baby only; that never changed once in the seven months (and seven episodes) between "Triangle" and "Green Piece". There were two occasions when I think she would've had opportunity to fool herself - when Danny said I love you in "Triangle", and with his proposal in "Green Piece". There was no real difference, so I think she would've said yes the first time if all she cared about was marrying him.

I think he spent seven months showing her he'd be a devoted spouse/significant other. He was doting on the baby, yes, but he was bonding with and sharing his happiness with her. It was obviously enough because she did marry him, and in "Grounds for Deception" she was all but coming on to him in the lab.

I don't remember any particular moments from "Boo", except for one where I think he might've put his hand on Lindsay's shoulder after they found the girl's skeleton.

Some people thought he rubbed her arm at the end I think. His hand was off screen so it was hard to tell.

Yeah, it makes things hard to define since we didn't see much of their relationship in early-S4. Although I think it's fair to assume the little we did see can serve as a mini-blueprint of what their relationship was like, so I'd only expect to see more instances of Lindsay trying to engage Danny on an emotional level. I too think Danny is afraid to completely open himself up like that to a girlfriend (I also think the girlfriend part is especially more important, because he seemed to find it a little easier to open up to Lindsay when she was just his friend), so I get that. But if he's afraid to open up emotionally (and therefore doesn't), it's not Lindsay's fault that she can't engage him on an emotional level - both when they were dating and even now, really.

But she didn't really try, unless you're counting that one moment in "The Deep." Danny is uncomfortable with praise--that was established long before Lindsay was even on the show. Other than that, did she ever even try to engage him on an emotional level? I don't really remember that happening.

He was uncomfortable, but he managed a "don't worry about it" for Hawkes in "The Deep", and the exact same response would've been perfectly appropriate for Lindsay when she was going on about not being able to do anything. I know he's not good with concern or praise; and yeah, I've noticed how the others seem to have recognized his low self-esteem. But to be honest, I only remember an actual brush-off with Lindsay in 4.02; with Hawkes it was one quick acknowledgement and then changed the subject to a joke. With Stella in "Thing about Heroes", he just changed the subject. Lindsay got the "stop goofing off". No I don't think it was specific to her, in that he wouldn't have avoided the praise of anyone else. I just don't think he would've responded that same way to anyone else.

Saying "don't worry about it" is kind of a brush off. "You're welcome" or "I'm glad I was there"--that would be something that acknowledged the thank you. On paper, his words to Lindsay may have been a bit harsher, but I remember it seeming like he was joking around a bit with her, like he was trying to teasingly get her to drop it. Changing the subject is the other thing he does--he's just not comfortable at all with praise, again, because he doesn't think much of himself. IIRC, Hawkes had to kind of corner him in the end to really thank him, and even then I think Danny's response was along the lines of "You'd do the same for me" or something.

He was on his way out in "CP", but he heard her when she came in because he reacted to hearing her. He actually made a "leave me alone" kind of hand-motion when she said his name. I get it if he was too upset to talk right then, but he knew perfectly well that she was in the morgue for him, obviously to engage on an emotional level.

Yeah, he couldn't talk then--he probably figured she'd find him later. He was probably running off to cry... I bet if she'd chased him and found him in tears somewhere, he would have let her in. But ok, she didn't, so he probably assumed she'd go looking for him later. And then she didn't... and didn't... and didn't.

It's not so much that he rebuffs her, it's more - well, if he sidelines concern, brushes off praise, rebuffs her when he's tormented, I'm not seeing many other things she could try engaging with him emotionally over.

But those are two examples. In one case, he was weird with everyone about the incident. In the other, he was literally falling apart and already on his way out. If he had eaten up everyone else's praise and then been a jerk to her, yeah, I'd see it, but he's weird with praise. If he had been pouring his heart out to Mac and had been okay, seen Lindsay walk in and then run out... yeah, that would feel deliberate. But he didn't do that. He stormed out on Mac, really, not her. He just didn't stop for her. I don't even think he would have stopped for Flack--though knowing Flack, Flack would have chased him down.

He is much easier with her when they're joking around, I think that's because that's what they've always done - and yeah, because the emotions aren't really touched on. Arguments about Batman are fun, but they don't get personal (interestingly, the one time it even got close to becoming personal - in "Commuted Sentences" when Lindsay tried asking if she'd impressed him with her slingshot skills - he switched the subject back to business).

Yeah, I remember that--wasn't he miffed about the love handles comment? I think Danny is a little vain. :lol: I think he puts a lot of stock in his physical appearance because he thinks others do--kind of goes back to the way he thinks what he's got to offer is sex. So I took his coldness in that as him being a little put out by her love handles joke.

ETA: I had to cut out a lot too this time!!