Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[Top41]

He was pissed off at her "I know you" - I remember he sounded at least as irritated as she did in that scene, and then he's the one who walked away first.

Pissed or hurt? And he'd had to follow her into the locker room and then chase after as she left. He tried, twice, which is really twice more than he should have had to try. I don't remember him leaving angry.

I'd say the number of times she's been mean to him when he goes to her, kind of evenly match up with the number of times she's been willing to talk/be nice when he goes to her (3 and 3 each), which leads me to believe he doesn't really know what to expect...but it still doesn't seem like he goes in always expecting her blow-offs.

It's not even just the blow offs--it's the nasty snappishness, too, like the way she was in "Oedipus Hex" about the job and her shoving the folder into his hand in "Right Next Door." She's just not nice to him a lot of the time.

True, but then I don't think there's anyone on the show that actually, completely gets Danny. We do know that Mac's very fond of him, though, and I think Danny has at least been able to tell lately.

True, Danny is a hard one to "get," :lol: . But yes, Mac's fondness for Danny was evident, especially when he and Lindsay told Mac about the baby.

That would kind of match up with what I mentioned before - if all she wanted was her flirty, happy boyfriend back, she wouldn't care as much how he came back, just as long as he did. She probably wouldn't care who he went to talk to to get over Ruben's death, so long as he got over it.

Yeah, but he wasn't coming back on her timetable. I think she expected him to go off and grieve and get over it and be back to normal and that would be that. And he didn't, so she got pissed off.

She certainly could've handled the situation in that office better. But I'm not nearly as sympathetic to Danny in this case. Even if he was able to ignore/not notice Lindsay's attempts to support him (because that's literally what he would've had to be doing to not see them - ignoring or just not noticing her), I as a viewer saw them, so to me it's like she did reach out and was shot down. Flack, Mac, all kinds of people make allowances for Danny's emotional damage, but it's like it honestly doesn't occur to him that he should ever have to do the same. Because of course, they don't really care about him or what he thinks, according to him. I love him, so I can understand how his insecurities would make him think this kind of behaviour makes sense. But I can totally see how it also makes him act rather insensitive himself.

I can see him making allowances for Lindsay's emotional damage under normal circumstances. He backed off when he saw that was what she needed. But in this case, Danny was the one in need. When you're hurting, you don't always make allowances for others, and what he was going through trumped whatever difficulties she had in reaching out to him. The fact that she couldn't get over herself enough to see that--and then got mad at him for not coming to her!--makes her completely unsympathetic in that situation in my eyes.

It's probably at least as hard for the people whose care he shuts down in the face of. Only for Danny, it just seemed to get easier once she started walking away, because rather than proving him right, that seemed to be the only time he started to hardcore believe that she actually cared.

Because for Danny caring has a negative aspect to it. Caring is being critical of him or cruel to him. He doesn't seem to know how to handle the positive aspect of it. I'm sure that's hard for people that care about him, but it should also drive them to show him more of the positive stuff, so he can get used to that.

I do think Flack and Mac have done their work in letting him know that they won't give up on him, but on the other hand, they have more going for them. Danny tends to let them know that he's troubled, even to tell them what he needs (he outright told Mac in RSRD that he needed a friend, not a boss, even though he was still on shaky footing with him; he spilled to Flack about both Aiden and Rikki stealing his gun). Danny may not always believe they care, but he pays attention when they seem to want to help. Furthermore, Danny never seems to actually hurt them when he brushes off their care (Flack was peeved in All in the Family, but I doubt he was actually hurt).

Flack's pretty tough, and I think he gets Danny's damage on a fundamental level. The two couldn't be more different, but Flack takes the time to really consider Danny and think about what Danny's going through and put it in perspective. Lindsay doesn't do that.

True, I guess it could have been. In light of later episodes, that probably makes more sense (though it didn't seem like it at the time), but it's just irritating that it has to get to the point of hurting people before he decides to believe they care.

If you look at his behavior over the course of the show, I'm not sure he ever really believes they care.

I don't remember Belknap's facial expression, I just remembered the gesture But maybe she's just learning in baby steps to be more caring? In Boo, she brought that Rose (?) girl a teddy bear when they went to the hospital.

It's nice, but again, it allows her to keep an emotional distance and still feel like she's doing something.

Immediate family, yeah I think he's still close with them. As for Lindsay...maybe he finds her funny, or likes that she laughs at his lamer jokes. I don't know, I can reel off a whole list of things I like about Lindsay, but I'd say Danny hasn't noticed any of them. Which basically confirms my belief that he barely likes her (as a girlfriend), he's just with her because he thinks she's the best he can get right now.

I don't think it's so much that she's the best she can get right now, since at the moment he's happy with her because of the baby. Initially, I think he got interested in her after it became clear she liked him--he was responding to her desire more than really having any of his own. That's really the only thing I can think of, other than the city boy/country girl cliches the show goes for with these two.

What things do you like about her? There are times I want to like the character, but then I think of "Oedipus Hex" or "Silent Night" or even the way she told Danny she was pregnant and I just get an "ick" feeling.

 

[Maya316]

Pissed or hurt? And he'd had to follow her into the locker room and then chase after as she left. He tried, twice, which is really twice more than he should have had to try. I don't remember him leaving angry.

Well, he sounded hurt in "On the Job", when he asked Mac who'd been badmouthing him. The way he sounded when asking what Lindsay meant in "The Box" reminded me a bit of how he sounded when he told Flack he should've minded his own business in "All In The Family" - so I went with pissed. And he did follow Lindsay from the locker room, but after Lindsay identified the vic and went to get the vic's phone number from her locker, he took it from her and left. He didn't exactly leave angry, but I found it interesting because it was, for once, Lindsay getting ditched by Danny rather than the other way around. And the look on her face when he left reminded me a little of Danny's in PF.

It's not even just the blow offs--it's the nasty snappishness, too, like the way she was in "Oedipus Hex" about the job and her shoving the folder into his hand in "Right Next Door." She's just not nice to him a lot of the time.

The nasty snappishness tends to get dropped on Danny without warning, he doesn't exactly seek her out for it. And, well, a lot of the characters are just snippy to each other in general without warning, for very little reason. Even Mac.

True, Danny is a hard one to "get," :lol: . But yes, Mac's fondness for Danny was evident, especially when he and Lindsay told Mac about the baby.

Yeah, I saw that. I'm just really glad they seem to be on that firmer footing, because it shows growth.

Yeah, but he wasn't coming back on her timetable. I think she expected him to go off and grieve and get over it and be back to normal and that would be that. And he didn't, so she got pissed off.

Then why make it all about him not coming to her for help - and not about him not getting over it quickly enough? If anything, this would mean she should've been yelling at him to do whatever he needed to - talk to Flack, sleep with Rikki, whatever - to get over it faster.

I can see him making allowances for Lindsay's emotional damage under normal circumstances. He backed off when he saw that was what she needed. But in this case, Danny was the one in need. When you're hurting, you don't always make allowances for others, and what he was going through trumped whatever difficulties she had in reaching out to him. The fact that she couldn't get over herself enough to see that--and then got mad at him for not coming to her!--makes her completely unsympathetic in that situation in my eyes.

I'm not disputing that Danny was the one in need. What makes him less sympathetic (in my eyes, in this situation) is that we know perfectly well how capable he is of telling people outright when he's in need, when he's in pain. There was that "I need a friend" comment to Mac in RSRD; there was his "How do I do that?" to Flack in All in the Family; there was even his "Kindergartens are the last place I want to be looking for a murderer right now" to Mac and Adam (lab tech he occasionally hazes) in Happily Never After - both of whom just looked awkward, after he let it slip. Yet it never occurred to him that the one person who might actually need to hear a comment like that to help him, should not have been the only person he wouldn't spill to. I'd understand more if Danny was just the type in general to hide his pain and be recalcitrant about sharing it with anyone. But he's not. And the fact that Lindsay seems to have been the only one in the lab who didn't hear a comment like that coming from him really makes it seem like he's the one who shut her out. And given what he knows of her emotional damage, it just looks like that was an allowance he should've been able to make in his pain, and just refused to.

Lindsay should've been able to put aside her issues - she's so not blameless in this. But for countless people, it's not so easy to do what Danny did in Season 3, and I'd suspect expecting Lindsay to find it that easy would be like expecting Danny to just kick aside his insecurities and let people care about him. It is doable. But it's not that easy.

Because for Danny caring has a negative aspect to it. Caring is being critical of him or cruel to him. He doesn't seem to know how to handle the positive aspect of it. I'm sure that's hard for people that care about him, but it should also drive them to show him more of the positive stuff, so he can get used to that.

But like with Lindsay and less-damaged people, most people can't or won't pour that much effort into someone when they're not getting anything back...or in Danny's case, hitting a brick wall each time they pour. And for someone emotionally invested, I'm sure it would hurt a lot to just keep pouring and not getting through. My sympathy with Danny in S4 is about even with Lindsay, partly because I know he did manage to get through Lindsay's wall which is at least as hard, if not harder. But...you have to admit Danny's a special case. Very few people would be able to do what he did. And I saw Lindsay trying to show him the positive stuff to the best of her ability (all through S4 till RND), and he just didn't notice or didn't care enough to get used to it.

Flack's pretty tough, and I think he gets Danny's damage on a fundamental level. The two couldn't be more different, but Flack takes the time to really consider Danny and think about what Danny's going through and put it in perspective. Lindsay doesn't do that.

Lindsay can't do that. I'm unsure of how much Flack gets Danny's damage, but he was able to consider Danny's situation and what he was going through because Danny basically laid it out for him in All in the Family (the scene where Flack first caught him, when Danny was all "Would you think about what she's going through? She lost her son" - and then from that and what he was currently doing, Flack picked up on the fact that Danny felt responsible).

If you look at his behavior over the course of the show, I'm not sure he ever really believes they care.

True...but then, Lindsay seems to be the only one on the show that things have gotten to that point with; which makes me totally lost on where they are now. I think he believes Mac and Flack care, but it's hard to tell how they got to that point too.

It's nice, but again, it allows her to keep an emotional distance and still feel like she's doing something.

You've got a point, but if she didn't care she probably wouldn't feel the need to do something at all.

I don't think it's so much that she's the best she can get right now, since at the moment he's happy with her because of the baby. Initially, I think he got interested in her after it became clear she liked him--he was responding to her desire more than really having any of his own. That's really the only thing I can think of, other than the city boy/country girl cliches the show goes for with these two.

Ugh, don't get me started on the city boy/country girl cliches. They've forever poisoned one of my favourite Journey songs

I think he thought she was the best he could get during Personal Foul...and then things switched to the baby. And in season 2 it may have been a similar thing - she was flirting with him, and she was just there, best that he could get.

What things do you like about her? There are times I want to like the character, but then I think of "Oedipus Hex" or "Silent Night" or even the way she told Danny she was pregnant and I just get an "ick" feeling.

LOL, I'm totally going to embarrass myself here by making a list, but here goes

1. She's 5'3 at best and is still every bit as tough with suspects as anyone else on the team. She stands up for herself.

2. She's easily the most outside-the-box thinker on the team; applying myths and legends and random-facts-that-no-one-in-their-right-mind-would-bother-learning to cases that make the team think about said cases in a different way, or take said cases in a different direction.

3. She's really smart, has loads of common sense yet is so completely clueless about something that just comes naturally to people - emotions. She's almost like a typical guy that way :lol:

4. She's so awkward! With people, with feelings or showing that she cares. But I always see her trying and failing to get it right, and trying again and failing again, and trying again - it's given me a lot of sympathy for the character. [Like with the teddy-bear example from above: the little girl just saw her family murdered by a "monster", a teddy bear wasn't going to make her feel the least bit better - and the look the girl gave Lindsay when Lindsay handed her the bear was just LOL-funny. It was clear Lindsay didn't have the first clue what, if anything, would make the girl fel better, but she wanted to do something anyway.]

5. When she lets loose, she's really hilarious and fun to watch, imo.

6. Even when she doesn't let loose, she can still be pretty funny. I like her demonstrations

7. She's witty enough to make Flack (the wittiest character on the show) walk straight into her teasing, but somehow manages to find Danny's lamer jokes funny.

8. She's such a nerd, and really corny a lot of the time (Laughing Larry, believing in curses, Speed Racer-geek, slingshots -- she so walked right into Danny's "Dennis the Menace" dig). I find it endearing.

9. She's always so determined to keep a cool head and act rationally no matter what - and never realizes that it's that same determination that usually leads her to act irrationally.

10. She totally memorizes football stats to impress guys.

11. I feel like she deserves an extra point just because she likes Speed Racer.

*shrug* I realize there's a lot about her that can be off-putting, but at the same time, I think there's a lot about her that makes her an interesting person...and that would make her attractive to a guy who actually wanted to care about her.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

**sneaks in for a minute to say...I got S3 and S4!!!** RL projects have taken up time but I'm still getting a minute here and there to read. Back later to talk!

 

[Top41]

Well, he sounded hurt in "On the Job", when he asked Mac who'd been badmouthing him. The way he sounded when asking what Lindsay meant in "The Box" reminded me a bit of how he sounded when he told Flack he should've minded his own business in "All In The Family" - so I went with pissed. And he did follow Lindsay from the locker room, but after Lindsay identified the vic and went to get the vic's phone number from her locker, he took it from her and left. He didn't exactly leave angry, but I found it interesting because it was, for once, Lindsay getting ditched by Danny rather than the other way around. And the look on her face when he left reminded me a little of Danny's in PF.

I honestly don't remember him being pissed--more just completely put off and wounded. It was the ultimate rejection for Danny: he has to chase her down to get her to admit she was pregnant and then she all but says, "I know what you're like and you can't handle this/don't deserve to be a part of this." Whether she meant it that way or not, that's what he heard and it set the tone for the rest of their interactions that season, and explains why he was so desperate to marry her. He always seemed like he believed deep down that she was going to cut him out of the baby's life.

I'm digressing--if he was pissed, he still never laid into her the way she's laid into him. That's Danny--he just doesn't get nasty with people.

The nasty snappishness tends to get dropped on Danny without warning, he doesn't exactly seek her out for it. And, well, a lot of the characters are just snippy to each other in general without warning, for very little reason. Even Mac.

Yeah, but he's gotten enough of the nasty snappishness from her to reasonably expect she could dish it out to him if he goes to her.

Then why make it all about him not coming to her for help - and not about him not getting over it quickly enough? If anything, this would mean she should've been yelling at him to do whatever he needed to - talk to Flack, sleep with Rikki, whatever - to get over it faster.

Because she'd sound like a huge bitch if she told him to get over a kid's death faster! I don't even think it's so much her being a bitch as it expecting him to put stuff away the same way she does. She'd seen enough of Danny by that point to know he wasn't capable of doing that.

I'm not disputing that Danny was the one in need. What makes him less sympathetic (in my eyes, in this situation) is that we know perfectly well how capable he is of telling people outright when he's in need, when he's in pain. There was that "I need a friend" comment to Mac in RSRD; there was his "How do I do that?" to Flack in All in the Family; there was even his "Kindergartens are the last place I want to be looking for a murderer right now" to Mac and Adam (lab tech he occasionally hazes) in Happily Never After - both of whom just looked awkward, after he let it slip. Yet it never occurred to him that the one person who might actually need to hear a comment like that to help him, should not have been the only person he wouldn't spill to. I'd understand more if Danny was just the type in general to hide his pain and be recalcitrant about sharing it with anyone. But he's not. And the fact that Lindsay seems to have been the only one in the lab who didn't hear a comment like that coming from him really makes it seem like he's the one who shut her out. And given what he knows of her emotional damage, it just looks like that was an allowance he should've been able to make in his pain, and just refused to.

But what I come back to on that is Lindsay's behavior towards Danny. Has she ever done anything that made it seem like he could come to her? She pushed him away in season three when it seemed like he was ready to get emotionally close to her (I still don't think the guy chased her down and put himself out their repeatedly for "a few laughs" or casual hook ups). So when he was suffering, I think his thinking was that she wasn't someone he could go to, who would get it. She never really let him in to what she was going through--when he showed up in Montana, her reactions to him were all physical, and she immediately put the moves on him. Not "I'm so glad you're here, let me tell you what this was all about."

Danny didn't really willingly open up to Flack about Ruben either--Flack really, really had to push in "All in the Family," and when Danny did open up it was basically to say, "I have no idea how to get over this." Part of Danny not talking once he got past the initial shock of Ruben's death was simply that he was overwhelmed by the magnitude of the tragedy--and why he was probably so glad once Rikki made a move on him. Finally something he could do to make her feel better and make himself feel like he was doing something not exactly to make up for it (nothing can) but to ease her pain.

Lindsay should've been able to put aside her issues - she's so not blameless in this. But for countless people, it's not so easy to do what Danny did in Season 3, and I'd suspect expecting Lindsay to find it that easy would be like expecting Danny to just kick aside his insecurities and let people care about him. It is doable. But it's not that easy.

But like with Lindsay and less-damaged people, most people can't or won't pour that much effort into someone when they're not getting anything back...or in Danny's case, hitting a brick wall each time they pour. And for someone emotionally invested, I'm sure it would hurt a lot to just keep pouring and not getting through. My sympathy with Danny in S4 is about even with Lindsay, partly because I know he did manage to get through Lindsay's wall which is at least as hard, if not harder. But...you have to admit Danny's a special case. Very few people would be able to do what he did. And I saw Lindsay trying to show him the positive stuff to the best of her ability (all through S4 till RND), and he just didn't notice or didn't care enough to get used to it.

It's just that she showed him so much negative stuff before that the precedent for their relationship had been set. I don't know that Danny trusted that she really cared about him. She'd shown him she did in season two and then turned on him. I can totally see why he'd worry the same would happen again if he got comfortable.

Lindsay can't do that. I'm unsure of how much Flack gets Danny's damage, but he was able to consider Danny's situation and what he was going through because Danny basically laid it out for him in All in the Family (the scene where Flack first caught him, when Danny was all "Would you think about what she's going through? She lost her son" - and then from that and what he was currently doing, Flack picked up on the fact that Danny felt responsible).

I don't think Flack gets Danny's damage--Danny is as alien to Flack as he is to Lindsay--but he never stops trying with Danny, and he recognizes Danny as being someone emotionally fragile. He's very protective of Danny, something I've always found very sweet about their relationship.

I think he thought she was the best he could get during Personal Foul...and then things switched to the baby. And in season 2 it may have been a similar thing - she was flirting with him, and she was just there, best that he could get.

I don't think it's so much that she was there as it was that she said she loved him. I think he believed she's the only one who ever will, so the relationship was worth saving at that point, for that fact alone. He was too messed up to realize that what matters just as much is how he feels.

LOL, I'm totally going to embarrass myself here by making a list, but here goes

1. She's 5'3 at best and is still every bit as tough with suspects as anyone else on the team. She stands up for herself.

2. She's easily the most outside-the-box thinker on the team; applying myths and legends and random-facts-that-no-one-in-their-right-mind-would-bother-learning to cases that make the team think about said cases in a different way, or take said cases in a different direction.

3. She's really smart, has loads of common sense yet is so completely clueless about something that just comes naturally to people - emotions. She's almost like a typical guy that way :lol:

4. She's so awkward! With people, with feelings or showing that she cares. But I always see her trying and failing to get it right, and trying again and failing again, and trying again - it's given me a lot of sympathy for the character. [Like with the teddy-bear example from above: the little girl just saw her family murdered by a "monster", a teddy bear wasn't going to make her feel the least bit better - and the look the girl gave Lindsay when Lindsay handed her the bear was just LOL-funny. It was clear Lindsay didn't have the first clue what, if anything, would make the girl fel better, but she wanted to do something anyway.]

5. When she lets loose, she's really hilarious and fun to watch, imo.

6. Even when she doesn't let loose, she can still be pretty funny. I like her demonstrations

7. She's witty enough to make Flack (the wittiest character on the show) walk straight into her teasing, but somehow manages to find Danny's lamer jokes funny.

8. She's such a nerd, and really corny a lot of the time (Laughing Larry, believing in curses, Speed Racer-geek, slingshots -- she so walked right into Danny's "Dennis the Menace" dig). I find it endearing.

9. She's always so determined to keep a cool head and act rationally no matter what - and never realizes that it's that same determination that usually leads her to act irrationally.

10. She totally memorizes football stats to impress guys.

11. I feel like she deserves an extra point just because she likes Speed Racer.

*shrug* I realize there's a lot about her that can be off-putting, but at the same time, I think there's a lot about her that makes her an interesting person...and that would make her attractive to a guy who actually wanted to care about her.

A lot of that is stuff I would like, too, and did like back in season two, but then got so put off by the character's behavior in season three that she kind of turned me off. And for me a lot of it does come back to Belknap--if there was more natural warmth there in places where it feels like there should be warmth, I think I'd enjoy the character more. I like the geekiness, the toughness, the wit, and the out-of-the-box thinking, but then I think about how she behaved in season three and her yo-yo treatment of Danny and I get very put off. Yet another reason sticking with D/L was a mistake on the show.

**sneaks in for a minute to say...I got S3 and S4!!!** RL projects have taken up time but I'm still getting a minute here and there to read. Back later to talk!

Awesome--see you soon!

 

[Maya316]

I honestly don't remember him being pissed--more just completely put off and wounded. It was the ultimate rejection for Danny: he has to chase her down to get her to admit she was pregnant and then she all but says, "I know what you're like and you can't handle this/don't deserve to be a part of this." Whether she meant it that way or not, that's what he heard and it set the tone for the rest of their interactions that season, and explains why he was so desperate to marry her. He always seemed like he believed deep down that she was going to cut him out of the baby's life.

I agree that this comment set the precedent for their Season 5 interaction (as much as I agree that Lindsay definitely didn't mean it the way he seemed to take it). But it really confirms what I noticed during the Season 4 fiasco - just like Lindsay tends to jump the gun with Danny, Danny's just as quick to believe the worst of Lindsay. No matter what she later does to try and correct his first impression, it's like that one first impression is the be-all, end-all. And it just continues this vicious cycle. That comment may have set more than the tone of their S5 interaction, it may have set the tone for their entire marriage. Lindsay's continued mistrust of Danny may be left over from Season 4, but I could see how she'd have trouble trusting a friend who's basically using her feelings for him to get her to stay with him, even if he's doing it with the best of intentions and consistently shows he cares for her.

I'm digressing--if he was pissed, he still never laid into her the way she's laid into him. That's Danny--he just doesn't get nasty with people.

I don't know...he was pissed when Aiden was replaced, and seemed to have no problem taking it out on Lindsay. And she did seem pretty stung by his "Stop goofing off" comment in The Deep (though to be fair, I doubt Danny meant that in a nasty way).

Yeah, but he's gotten enough of the nasty snappishness from her to reasonably expect she could dish it out to him if he goes to her.

I remember her being snappy to him 3 or 4 times in total (including The Box). Aiden got snappy with him more times in the course of her one season on NY. Heck, Mac has been snappy with him more times than that. Danny seems/ed to approach both those characters fine without expecting they'd always be snappy to him.

Because she'd sound like a huge bitch if she told him to get over a kid's death faster! I don't even think it's so much her being a bitch as it expecting him to put stuff away the same way she does. She'd seen enough of Danny by that point to know he wasn't capable of doing that.

She'd be a huge bitch if she was telling him to get over a kid's death faster. Which is why I don't think that's what she was angry about. If nothing else, the writers are writing Lindsay as a protagonist cop on a hit TV show, they can't do that while making her act inhuman.

I don't think it was that she was expecting Danny to put stuff away on his own like she usually does - I remember her being angry about him "clearly deciding to do it all on [his] own". That really made it sound like she was angry about his not coming to her.

But what I come back to on that is Lindsay's behavior towards Danny. Has she ever done anything that made it seem like he could come to her? She pushed him away in season three when it seemed like he was ready to get emotionally close to her (I still don't think the guy chased her down and put himself out their repeatedly for "a few laughs" or casual hook ups).So when he was suffering, I think his thinking was that she wasn't someone he could go to, who would get it.

I'm less sure on Danny's S3 motives - I don't so much think he was chasing her to get the casual-hook-up that she'd basically promised in S2, but I do think he didn't want anything emotional until it became clear that Lindsay didn't want anything emotional either.

On Lindsay, though....she did treat him badly, was snappy with him, and didn't want an emotional relationship. But even in S3, I'd have to disagree that she gave him any indication that she completely didn't care about him. Even Danny didn't seem to assume that. She did the same thing during the Love Run Cold blow-off as she did in RND, made it clear that the problem was with her, not with him....made it more than clear, in fact, that she still "liked him a lot". She left him a card telling him goodbye in The Lying Game, one he seemed to appreciate I might add. "It's not you, it's me" is the most hackneyed excuse in the book, so I can see how Danny would've felt rejected - but in Lindsay's case it was true, and Danny seemed to acknowledge that. I mean, her blow-off didn't seem to hinder their interaction that much. They didn't seem mad at each other or anything during S3. And then when her issues were sorted, she was all telling him about dreams she had where he disappeared (which he seemed to take into consideration, when he wrote that "Don't freak out" note in Snow Day). She travelled from the crime lab to Brooklyn when she heard he was in trouble. And Danny didn't seem surprised to see her there. This is why I'm having trouble buying into the interpretation that he started to mistrust her care in Season 4. He seemed perfectly willing to believe that she cared about him by the end of Season 3.

She never really let him in to what she was going through--when he showed up in Montana, her reactions to him were all physical, and she immediately put the moves on him. Not "I'm so glad you're here, let me tell you what this was all about."

I know it's best not to make offscreen assumptions, but I'm not sure we can assume that Danny and Lindsay didn't talk at all because of that silent-sequence at the end of "Sleight" - any more than we can reasonably assume that Mac didn't say anything in response to Lindsay and Danny telling him she was pregnant, just because of the silent-sequence at the end of The Triangle. Danny seemed to know how much Katum's conviction would mean to Lindsay, wasn't he the one who took her hand first?

Danny didn't really willingly open up to Flack about Ruben either--Flack really, really had to push in "All in the Family," and when Danny did open up it was basically to say, "I have no idea how to get over this." Part of Danny not talking once he got past the initial shock of Ruben's death was simply that he was overwhelmed by the magnitude of the tragedy--and why he was probably so glad once Rikki made a move on him. Finally something he could do to make her feel better and make himself feel like he was doing something not exactly to make up for it (nothing can) but to ease her pain.

Yeah, I agree with this. I don't think Danny exactly wanted to talk after Ruben's death, he just wanted to do something that could make it all better. But he did consistently let people know that there was a problem, just by letting off idle steam, and he's done this before (remembering Aiden's Chicken Parm in front of Flack; even, to an extent, telling Lindsay that "he'd had better days" in Run Silent, back when he gave her more credit, even though she barely knew him). Only this time, he almost seemed to purposely hide the fact that there was a problem when it came to Lindsay, while he was willing to let everyone else know. I know he didn't exactly spill to Flack about Ruben's death in "AitF" without Flack doing a lot of work. But what struck me in that episode was how, almost as soon as Flack showed up, Danny started telling him about the problem with Rikki. He didn't even pick up the phone when Lindsay started calling him repeatedly earlier in that episode. [I'm assuming she did it repeatedly because rather than saying he "didn't answer his phone", she said he "wasn't answering his phone"; which she'd have no real way of knowing unless she'd called more than once.]

It's just that she showed him so much negative stuff before that the precedent for their relationship had been set. I don't know that Danny trusted that she really cared about him. She'd shown him she did in season two and then turned on him. I can totally see why he'd worry the same would happen again if he got comfortable.

But judging from his season 3 interactions with her, he didn't seem to start registering the negative stuff as proof that she didn't care until...well, after he'd already seemed to accept that she cared.

Which doesn't really make sense, but in any case, it comes back to what I said before about Danny's insecurities causing him to act insensitively sometimes. He just shouldn't have started the relationship in the first place, if he honestly could never see himself being comfortable in it. Or he shouldn't have let her start it, and certainly shouldn't have let it go on for as long as it did. Lindsay was already invested by Snow Day, I think, but I doubt it would've hurt as much if they'd cut it off then, rather than later, after she'd already learned that all the positive stuff she could come up with wasn't going to do squat.

I don't think Flack gets Danny's damage--Danny is as alien to Flack as he is to Lindsay--but he never stops trying with Danny, and he recognizes Danny as being someone emotionally fragile. He's very protective of Danny, something I've always found very sweet about their relationship.

I agree, it's one of the things I really love about Flack. He's very protective of Danny, and certainly takes into consideration Danny's emotional fragility. And I think I agree that Flack doesn't understand Danny's damage, but he makes allowances for it. I don't think Flack minded Danny's awkwardness at the hospital in Pay Up, just appreciated the fact that he showed up...even if he did punch the wall. If Danny never came to give Flack support during Rush to Judgement, I doubt Flack would've held it against him. Any more than he would've held it against Danny that Danny was the first to leave the hospital in Charge of this Post, to drive Lindsay home. (My take on that was, after Louie, the last thing Danny felt like doing was seeing another person he cared about in a hospital bed.) Flack has seen what Danny goes through when things get emotional.

But I do have to say that comparatively, Danny's relationship with Flack is almost as take-give as D/L. So it just ... well, frustrates me that Flack can understand if Danny's not great at being there for him in an ideal way, but Danny might resent Lindsay for not doing what he did in Sleight out of Hand, even though Danny has also experienced what Lindsay's like when things get emotional. But of course, it probably helps that at least Flack is pretty emotionally healthy (at least, he has been up to now). And doesn't seem to completely miss or refuse to believe the signs that Danny does care about him.

And Danny seems to let Flack try with him. I mean, in On the Job, the entire precinct knew what Danny's problem was, so it wasn't like Danny was able to hide it...but he still sat down with Flack to talk a little in that diner, even if he did storm out later. Run Silent is a little harder to determine (Flack was ordered by Mac to stay at the hospital, but Danny didn't seem to mind). He talked to Flack a little about Aiden, and then let him help with Rikki in AitF. He's never really let Lindsay try with him, not in that same way. With Lindsay, the only thing that's come close is that scene at the end of Heroes, where Danny was entertaining the whole group with Aiden-stories.

....Wow! I really had a lot to say about Danny and Flack :lol:

A lot of that is stuff I would like, too, and did like back in season two, but then got so put off by the character's behavior in season three that she kind of turned me off. And for me a lot of it does come back to Belknap--if there was more natural warmth there in places where it feels like there should be warmth, I think I'd enjoy the character more. I like the geekiness, the toughness, the wit, and the out-of-the-box thinking, but then I think about how she behaved in season three and her yo-yo treatment of Danny and I get very put off. Yet another reason sticking with D/L was a mistake on the show.

That's totally fair, that Lindsay's S3 behaviour and Belknap's acting would turn people off the character's better points. For me it was kind of the opposite...S3!Lindsay and Belknap's acting made it easier to stop seeing Lindsay as a Mary-Sue, and thus made it easier to like her better points...but that might just be me being weird :lol: But there are no words for how much I agree about D/L...definitely one of my top-ten peeves with that pairing is that I think Lindsay's character would be so interesting on its own, if huge parts of it weren't constantly being sacrificed on the altar of D/L.

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake:
**sneaks in for a minute to say...I got S3 and S4!!!** RL projects have taken up time but I'm still getting a minute here and there to read. Back later to talk!

Oh my gosh, enjoy! S4 is my personal favourite, but I used to have the S3 DVDs too, and they were pretty great too

 

[Top41]

I agree that this comment set the precedent for their Season 5 interaction (as much as I agree that Lindsay definitely didn't mean it the way he seemed to take it). But it really confirms what I noticed during the Season 4 fiasco - just like Lindsay tends to jump the gun with Danny, Danny's just as quick to believe the worst of Lindsay. No matter what she later does to try and correct his first impression, it's like that one first impression is the be-all, end-all. And it just continues this vicious cycle. That comment may have set more than the tone of their S5 interaction, it may have set the tone for their entire marriage. Lindsay's continued mistrust of Danny may be left over from Season 4, but I could see how she'd have trouble trusting a friend who's basically using her feelings for him to get her to stay with him, even if he's doing it with the best of intentions and consistently shows he cares for her.

Yeah, there's just not a good solid base for these two--a lot of mistrust has been built up on both sides and at this point I'm not sure the gap is bridgeable, even if they are married. Danny's actions in "Point of No Return" show he still doesn't trust Lindsay enough to confide in her, and I think he's always going to worry deep down that she's going to take the baby and leave him. And Lindsay might be head over heels in love, but she seems to know something's missing on his side, even if she doesn't want to admit it to herself.

I don't know...he was pissed when Aiden was replaced, and seemed to have no problem taking it out on Lindsay. And she did seem pretty stung by his "Stop goofing off" comment in The Deep (though to be fair, I doubt Danny meant that in a nasty way).

I don't think Danny's ever been downright nasty with her. He hazed her a bit in "Zoo York." The only times I ever remember his tone being nasty were when she told him she'd heard his joke before in "Necrophilia Americana" (he kind of snapped at her then--he was in a bitchy mood in that ep, though, even a little with Flack!) and in "Right Next Door" when he asked her if this was about lunch. Otherwise, he pretty much doesn't get pissy--a little bitchy at times, but never in a sustained way.

I remember her being snappy to him 3 or 4 times in total (including The Box). Aiden got snappy with him more times in the course of her one season on NY. Heck, Mac has been snappy with him more times than that. Danny seems/ed to approach both those characters fine without expecting they'd always be snappy to him.

He didn't know Lindsay as well as either Mac or Aiden, and he wasn't romantically interested or involved with either one. With Aiden I mostly remember it being joking, but in season one Danny did seem a little hangdog/gunshy around Mac at times. At least with Mac it was usually because he'd done something wrong!

She'd be a huge bitch if she was telling him to get over a kid's death faster. Which is why I don't think that's what she was angry about. If nothing else, the writers are writing Lindsay as a protagonist cop on a hit TV show, they can't do that while making her act inhuman.

No, fair enough, but I think her reaction was pretty self-centered. "You're not grieving the way I expected you to" isn't really fair, but that's more or less what she said to him. He wasn't doing it on her time table, he wasn't doing it the way she would--the point is, she's basically taking the guy to task for how he's grieving. There's something fundamentally wrong with that. Now, if he'd been doing drugs or burying his sorrows in booze, it would have been concern for him, and I'd have gotten it. Maybe that's what bugs me about it--her reaction was so devoid of concern for him, and so full of concern for herself. That really put me off, and I thought made her seem self-involved.

I don't think it was that she was expecting Danny to put stuff away on his own like she usually does - I remember her being angry about him "clearly deciding to do it all on [his] own". That really made it sound like she was angry about his not coming to her.

I agree that she seemed to have the expectation that he'd come to her. But I also fall back on the fact that if she really wanted to be there for him, she would have reached out to him earlier, before the divide got so wide.

I'm less sure on Danny's S3 motives - I don't so much think he was chasing her to get the casual-hook-up that she'd basically promised in S2, but I do think he didn't want anything emotional until it became clear that Lindsay didn't want anything emotional either.

I don't know--I don't think it's possible for Danny to be involved with someone and not be emotional about it. Danny's such an incredibly emotional guy, and he brings that to everything because he can't not. I don't think he really made the distinction at any point, because I don't think he can. Emotional involvement is just a given for him--how deep that runs is probably the only variable.

On Lindsay, though....she did treat him badly, was snappy with him, and didn't want an emotional relationship. But even in S3, I'd have to disagree that she gave him any indication that she completely didn't care about him. Even Danny didn't seem to assume that. She did the same thing during the Love Run Cold blow-off as she did in RND, made it clear that the problem was with her, not with him....made it more than clear, in fact, that she still "liked him a lot". She left him a card telling him goodbye in The Lying Game, one he seemed to appreciate I might add. "It's not you, it's me" is the most hackneyed excuse in the book, so I can see how Danny would've felt rejected - but in Lindsay's case it was true, and Danny seemed to acknowledge that. I mean, her blow-off didn't seem to hinder their interaction that much. They didn't seem mad at each other or anything during S3. And then when her issues were sorted, she was all telling him about dreams she had where he disappeared (which he seemed to take into consideration, when he wrote that "Don't freak out" note in Snow Day). She travelled from the crime lab to Brooklyn when she heard he was in trouble. And Danny didn't seem surprised to see her there. This is why I'm having trouble buying into the interpretation that he started to mistrust her care in Season 4. He seemed perfectly willing to believe that she cared about him by the end of Season 3.

I don't know that he did, though. All of those things Lindsay did in season three basically amount to a rejection of him. We know how Danny takes things like that--she could say "it's not you, it's me" until she was blue in the face and all he'd hear is "You're not good enough." He flat out said that in "The Triangle" when he once again had to seek her out to get her to tell him why she wouldn't marry him. They went back into their flirting/banter towards the end of season three, but I don't think there was any trust there. That's always been what's missing between these two--trust. Lindsay's first thought when she woke up was to worry that Danny would be gone, even after all he'd done to show her that he'd be there for her. There's just never been any trust between them in the relationship arena.

I know it's best not to make offscreen assumptions, but I'm not sure we can assume that Danny and Lindsay didn't talk at all because of that silent-sequence at the end of "Sleight" - any more than we can reasonably assume that Mac didn't say anything in response to Lindsay and Danny telling him she was pregnant, just because of the silent-sequence at the end of The Triangle. Danny seemed to know how much Katum's conviction would mean to Lindsay, wasn't he the one who took her hand first?

I'm sure he knew how much it meant to her, but that was probably partially instinct, because Danny is so emotional and intuitive. One thing I noticed in season three was how Lindsay went out of her way not to confide in Danny, turning to other people (Mac, Stella) instead.

Yeah, I agree with this. I don't think Danny exactly wanted to talk after Ruben's death, he just wanted to do something that could make it all better. But he did consistently let people know that there was a problem, just by letting off idle steam, and he's done this before (remembering Aiden's Chicken Parm in front of Flack; even, to an extent, telling Lindsay that "he'd had better days" in Run Silent, back when he gave her more credit, even though she barely knew him). Only this time, he almost seemed to purposely hide the fact that there was a problem when it came to Lindsay, while he was willing to let everyone else know. I know he didn't exactly spill to Flack about Ruben's death in "AitF" without Flack doing a lot of work. But what struck me in that episode was how, almost as soon as Flack showed up, Danny started telling him about the problem with Rikki. He didn't even pick up the phone when Lindsay started calling him repeatedly earlier in that episode. [I'm assuming she did it repeatedly because rather than saying he "didn't answer his phone", she said he "wasn't answering his phone"; which she'd have no real way of knowing unless she'd called more than once.]

I think part of that is precedent--the way Lindsay treated him in season three--and part is probably that on some level Danny may have expected her to seek him out and try to be there for him in the way he did for her. Danny does make people work a little, but if Lindsay had hunted him down the way Flack did, I bet he would have told her what was going on, too. Danny isn't capable of hiding things, and when people show him they care about him, he tends to open up.

But judging from his season 3 interactions with her, he didn't seem to start registering the negative stuff as proof that she didn't care until...well, after he'd already seemed to accept that she cared.

I don't think he ever did accept she cared, though. Just because they went back to banter as usual doesn't mean he thinks she cared. She did show up at the end of "Snow Day," but he was so battered by the end of that ordeal that I doubt he totally registered what that meant.

Which doesn't really make sense, but in any case, it comes back to what I said before about Danny's insecurities causing him to act insensitively sometimes. He just shouldn't have started the relationship in the first place, if he honestly could never see himself being comfortable in it. Or he shouldn't have let her start it, and certainly shouldn't have let it go on for as long as it did. Lindsay was already invested by Snow Day, I think, but I doubt it would've hurt as much if they'd cut it off then, rather than later, after she'd already learned that all the positive stuff she could come up with wasn't going to do squat.

I think he followed her lead with the relationship--she seemed to initiate everything post-trial, at least as far as the physical aspect of the relationship. He shouldn't have gone along with it, but then, that's what we've seen Danny do all along--respond to people's desire for him.

I agree, it's one of the things I really love about Flack. He's very protective of Danny, and certainly takes into consideration Danny's emotional fragility. And I think I agree that Flack doesn't understand Danny's damage, but he makes allowances for it. I don't think Flack minded Danny's awkwardness at the hospital in Pay Up, just appreciated the fact that he showed up...even if he did punch the wall. If Danny never came to give Flack support during Rush to Judgement, I doubt Flack would've held it against him. Any more than he would've held it against Danny that Danny was the first to leave the hospital in Charge of this Post, to drive Lindsay home. (My take on that was, after Louie, the last thing Danny felt like doing was seeing another person he cared about in a hospital bed.) Flack has seen what Danny goes through when things get emotional.

I love how even though they're so different, Flack totally gets Danny and makes allowances for him. Danny can be maddening to deal with at times, but Flack just doesn't give up. And he always seems to get through eventually.

But I do have to say that comparatively, Danny's relationship with Flack is almost as take-give as D/L. So it just ... well, frustrates me that Flack can understand if Danny's not great at being there for him in an ideal way, but Danny might resent Lindsay for not doing what he did in Sleight out of Hand, even though Danny has also experienced what Lindsay's like when things get emotional. But of course, it probably helps that at least Flack is pretty emotionally healthy (at least, he has been up to now). And doesn't seem to completely miss or refuse to believe the signs that Danny does care about him.

Flack is much more emotionally healthy than Danny is. Part of my issue with Lindsay is that she just seems to be taking advantage of/playing on the emotions of someone who is obviously emotionally fragile. Now that she's clearly in love with him it feels less like taking advantage of him, but at the beginning it really grated on me.

And Danny seems to let Flack try with him. I mean, in On the Job, the entire precinct knew what Danny's problem was, so it wasn't like Danny was able to hide it...but he still sat down with Flack to talk a little in that diner, even if he did storm out later. Run Silent is a little harder to determine (Flack was ordered by Mac to stay at the hospital, but Danny didn't seem to mind). He talked to Flack a little about Aiden, and then let him help with Rikki in AitF. He's never really let Lindsay try with him, not in that same way. With Lindsay, the only thing that's come close is that scene at the end of Heroes, where Danny was entertaining the whole group with Aiden-stories.

Danny turns to Flack because Flack has proven time and time again that Danny can trust him, that he will be there for Danny. Lindsay showed Danny in season three that he's good for when she's up for fun or wants a romp in the sack, but she takes her problems elsewhere (the message Danny likely received at least).

....Wow! I really had a lot to say about Danny and Flack :lol:

They are fun to talk about! Theirs is my favorite relationship on the show.

That's totally fair, that Lindsay's S3 behaviour and Belknap's acting would turn people off the character's better points. For me it was kind of the opposite...S3!Lindsay and Belknap's acting made it easier to stop seeing Lindsay as a Mary-Sue, and thus made it easier to like her better points...but that might just be me being weird :lol: But there are no words for how much I agree about D/L...definitely one of my top-ten peeves with that pairing is that I think Lindsay's character would be so interesting on its own, if huge parts of it weren't constantly being sacrificed on the altar of D/L.

Agreed--it would be interesting to see how I feel about her outside of the relationship, but she's never been outside of it (it was set up from the first episode and never dropped). My Mary Sue issues with her come from her never being held accountable for her bad/bratty behavior...Danny lets her walk all over him, Stella was really understanding in "Silent Night" and Mac--the biggest stickler for the rules there is!--let her off without so much as a reprimand in "Like Water for Murder" after she'd jeopardized the lab's accreditation! To me that falls under the "she can do no wrong" category of Mary Sue-dom. For once I'd like to see someone really chew Lindsay out for being a brat--maybe then I wouldn't have quite as much of a problem with the character. :lol:

 

[JellyBelly]

I so want to get back into this discussion but have been thwarted at every turn. Yesterdsay I composed a very lengthy post but just as I went to save it the site went down (or, at least it wouldn't do anything for me). Then today I started from scratch and attempted to say what i'd been trying to say yesterday and my system crashed. Not cool! Now I'm too tired to think/see straight. :brickwall:

 

[Top41]

I so want to get back into this discussion but have been thwarted at every turn. Yesterdsay I composed a very lengthy post but just as I went to save it the site went down (or, at least it wouldn't do anything for me). Then today I started from scratch and attempted to say what i'd been trying to say yesterday and my system crashed. Not cool! Now I'm too tired to think/see straight. :brickwall:

Oh no! That happened to me yesterday, too. So frustrating! I try to remember to copy my response before clicking "submit reply" because I've been the victim of that all too often.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say!

 

[JellyBelly]

Oh no! That happened to me yesterday, too. So frustrating! I try to remember to copy my response before clicking "submit reply" because I've been the victim of that all too often.

Now that would be the sensible thing to do wouldn't it? I'll try to remember to do that when I come back tomorrow.

 

[Top41]

I never think of it until I lose a long, totally involved post. :lol: Then I remember for a few weeks and then let it slide until the next time I lose a long, totally involved post.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

^^That's why I have to take a break every once in a while because I get really steamed when I take the time to put this long lengthy post up and it eats it whole. I learned the copy before posting trick as well, but as Top said, I don't always remember and oops there it goes again, up in smoke.

Watched the Shane episodes from S3 today. What a great thing for Danny to see himself in this young kid and to see to what extreme Shane was willing to go. I had forgotten a lot of Raising Shane so it was very interesting to see their interaction at the end of the episode. It really confirms to me that Danny did spend a lot of his time either excusing or taking up for Louie as a teenager and also how much Louie's life affected Danny's. I don't think we will see anymore of Louie. At one point I thought they might bring him back but the end of Raising Shane seemed so final for Danny that to bring him back would be wrong in some way, at least for me.

One other tidbit you may find interesting: I watched Consequences with the commentary on as well. Narration done by PV and Eddie Cahill. I never realized it but in that episode Lindsay talks with Mac about some black Cocaine that was destroyed with two DEA agents in attendance. The lead detective was Flack and in the narration Eddie said he was still mad about her "tattling" to Mac about it instead of coming to him. I don't know if it carries over to his character because it is never addressed in the show but if he plays on it as Flack it may have something to do with why he didn't have much use for Lindsay for such a long while. I can see how Flack could have been upset about it and will have to watch and see how the characters interact from that point forward.

 

[Top41]

^^That's why I have to take a break every once in a while because I get really steamed when I take the time to put this long lengthy post up and it eats it whole. I learned the copy before posting trick as well, but as Top said, I don't always remember and oops there it goes again, up in smoke.

I know--it's always the one time you forget to copy, right? So frustrating!

Watched the Shane episodes from S3 today. What a great thing for Danny to see himself in this young kid and to see to what extreme Shane was willing to go. I had forgotten a lot of Raising Shane so it was very interesting to see their interaction at the end of the episode. It really confirms to me that Danny did spend a lot of his time either excusing or taking up for Louie as a teenager and also how much Louie's life affected Danny's. I don't think we will see anymore of Louie. At one point I thought they might bring him back but the end of Raising Shane seemed so final for Danny that to bring him back would be wrong in some way, at least for me.

I admit, that was around the time I gave up on the "bring Louie back!" bandwagon, too. I think we kind of got an idea of what their relationship was like. I'm much more interested in seeing who inflicted the greater damage on Danny. Both Louie and Danny are screwed up in their own ways which again makes me suspect an older male relative.

I really did love the end of "Raising Shane," the way Shane zeroed in on Danny because of what Danny said about Louie the first time they met. You could see how scared Danny was going in there, but at the same time, you could see how much he needed to do it, needed this kid to know the truth about his brother, even if it was harsh, in the same way Danny needed to learn the truth about Louie. I also thought the way Danny went in again emphasized the character's inherent sweetness--he was frank with Shane, but he was also compassionate. "Raising Shane" is one of my favorite Danny episodes.

One other tidbit you may find interesting: I watched Consequences with the commentary on as well. Narration done by PV and Eddie Cahill. I never realized it but in that episode Lindsay talks with Mac about some black Cocaine that was destroyed with two DEA agents in attendance. The lead detective was Flack and in the narration Eddie said he was still mad about her "tattling" to Mac about it instead of coming to him. I don't know if it carries over to his character because it is never addressed in the show but if he plays on it as Flack it may have something to do with why he didn't have much use for Lindsay for such a long while. I can see how Flack could have been upset about it and will have to watch and see how the characters interact from that point forward.

I would imagine that what Lindsay did may not have sat well with Flack. Incidentally, it also shows how partial she is to Danny, since in RSRD she did make the choice to go to Danny first and not Mac. Getting back to "Consequences" though, I remember thinking the same thing when I heard the commentary.

To be fair, in his CSI Files interview the question came up and Eddie answered:

CSI Files: In the commentary for "Consequences," you mentioned that Lindsay (Anna Belknap) "sold Flack out" by giving Mac evidence. Do you think Flack is still holding a grudge over that?

Cahill: I don't think so, no. I don't think it was ever a grudge. I don't think Lindsay was excited about giving that evidence away. I don't think it was one of those, "Hahaha, I solved the case and I get to take out one of my colleagues." I think there was a struggle in there for her.

While I'm sure he wasn't thrilled with Lindsay, as an honorable guy, I think Flack got what she did.

To me, it's always seemed that Flack and Lindsay are kind of like oil and water--they just don't mix that well. He gets frustrated with her long-winded explanations and has seemed annoyed with her teasing, sometimes playfully, but he seemed genuinely annoyed to me in "People with Money." I can't seem to find it in the interviews, but there was one with Eddie where he said the "Yes-no-yes-no" thing Lindsay pulled on Danny wouldn't fly with Flack. I can't see Flack thrilled with seeing Lindsay put Danny, who he's so protective of and who he knows is so much more vulnerable than he is, through that. I don't think he hates her, I don't even think he dislikes her, but I can see him being wary of her and concerned for Danny. He's just not usually warm with her in the same way he is with the other characters.

 

[Maya316]

I don't think Danny's ever been downright nasty with her. He hazed her a bit in "Zoo York." The only times I ever remember his tone being nasty were when she told him she'd heard his joke before in "Necrophilia Americana" (he kind of snapped at her then--he was in a bitchy mood in that ep, though, even a little with Flack!) and in "Right Next Door" when he asked her if this was about lunch. Otherwise, he pretty much doesn't get pissy--a little bitchy at times, but never in a sustained way.

The hazing was a little sustained past Zoo York, into Youngblood (implying she wasn't good at her job), even a little in Bad Beat (though this may have been because she was teasing him about the footage). But yeah, once he did warm to her a little, he's never really gotten nasty with her.

He didn't know Lindsay as well as either Mac or Aiden, and he wasn't romantically interested or involved with either one. With Aiden I mostly remember it being joking, but in season one Danny did seem a little hangdog/gunshy around Mac at times. At least with Mac it was usually because he'd done something wrong!

Lol, I'm not so sure with Mac...during the first few episodes, I remember Mac getting kind of snappish with Danny for things that probably shouldn't have been such a problem. [First episode, when Mac and Stella left Aiden and Danny to do the dumpster-diving, Danny just asked why they weren't sticking around and Mac snapped at him. Third episode, with the 20-year-old skeleton, Danny was kind of laughing about how the media wouldn't care about the more tragic aspect of it, and Mac was all "I do" in a kind-of-snappish way. It's why I think they've grown so much since then -- they really seemed on edge with each other that first season.]

No, fair enough, but I think her reaction was pretty self-centered. "You're not grieving the way I expected you to" isn't really fair, but that's more or less what she said to him. He wasn't doing it on her time table, he wasn't doing it the way she would--the point is, she's basically taking the guy to task for how he's grieving. There's something fundamentally wrong with that. Now, if he'd been doing drugs or burying his sorrows in booze, it would have been concern for him, and I'd have gotten it. Maybe that's what bugs me about it--her reaction was so devoid of concern for him, and so full of concern for herself. That really put me off, and I thought made her seem self-involved.

That line about his "doing it all in his own" seemed to imply concern for how he was grieving, rather than concern for herself. He may not have been doing drugs or booze, but at that point he'd been skipping shifts (which Lindsay knew) and screwing away his pain with his neighbour (which Lindsay may/may not have suspected) - both of which are at least as self-destructive. I still don't think Lindsay was solely concerned with getting her boyfriend back, and I think she would've preferred it had he come to her. But at the same time, I doubt she would've been yelling at all if Danny had actually been dealing well. She also mentioned how she thought he'd've needed someone to lean on - I think she may have still been irritated that he didn't come to her, but I can't see her having been that angry if Danny had been leaning on Flack or Rikki in a way that helped (especially given that she sent at least one of them after him in AitF).

I don't know--I don't think it's possible for Danny to be involved with someone and not be emotional about it. Danny's such an incredibly emotional guy, and he brings that to everything because he can't not. I don't think he really made the distinction at any point, because I don't think he can. Emotional involvement is just a given for him--how deep that runs is probably the only variable.

I guess I can see how emotional-involvement might just be an unconscious given where Danny's concerned...but I agree on how he most likely didn't make the distinction. I still don't think in Season 3, he ever actually consciously decided to be emotionally involved until Lindsay indicated that she didn't want to be. I'm actually still convinced he has yet to consciously decide (if he ever will) to be emotionally involved, with Lindsay herself that is. I know he is with Lucy.

I don't know that he did, though. All of those things Lindsay did in season three basically amount to a rejection of him. We know how Danny takes things like that--she could say "it's not you, it's me" until she was blue in the face and all he'd hear is "You're not good enough." He flat out said that in "The Triangle" when he once again had to seek her out to get her to tell him why she wouldn't marry him. They went back into their flirting/banter towards the end of season three, but I don't think there was any trust there. That's always been what's missing between these two--trust. Lindsay's first thought when she woke up was to worry that Danny would be gone, even after all he'd done to show her that he'd be there for her. There's just never been any trust between them in the relationship arena.

True...but argh, this is a huge part of why I either want to lock them in an office with a shrink, or serve them the divorce papers myself. If even flat-out telling each other that their first impressions are wrong does nothing to erase those first impressions, then they so so so should not still be together. :shifty:

Although I do think the case in the Triangle was slightly different from Season 3...at least at the beginning of the Triangle. Danny could easily, legitimately have taken her rejection of the marriage proposal as "You're not good enough" - she didn't say anything other than "no", and then walked away.

I'm sure he knew how much it meant to her, but that was probably partially instinct, because Danny is so emotional and intuitive. One thing I noticed in season three was how Lindsay went out of her way not to confide in Danny, turning to other people (Mac, Stella) instead.

I agree that Danny is emotional, but I'm definitely not sure he's intuitive enough to just know when something means a lot to Lindsay (they wouldn't have half the massive communication problems they do if he was). So I've always kind of assumed he knew something about the case from Lindsay. ..I mean, that's otherwise a huge leap of logic, that he just happened to show up in the right room of the right courthouse, right as Lindsay started testifying.

I'm not sure if Lindsay turned to Mac and Stella on purpose, or just out of necessity - she owed Stella an explanation for her behaviour in Silent Night, and it wasn't like she could've just left for Montana without giving Mac a reason.

I don't think he ever did accept she cared, though. Just because they went back to banter as usual doesn't mean he thinks she cared. She did show up at the end of "Snow Day," but he was so battered by the end of that ordeal that I doubt he totally registered what that meant.

I wasn't thinking so much of the banter at the end of S3, but more of the goodbye card she left him, and how he seemed to appreciate it....for example, I have no clue whether or not he would've flown out to Montana had she not left the card, but I do think the fact that she left it had something to do with his "instincts" to go. Danny may be a doormat when it comes to her, but I can't see him still chasing her with no indication that she would welcome it, any more than I can see Lindsay pursuing him if he really didn't appear to be interested.

Flack is much more emotionally healthy than Danny is. Part of my issue with Lindsay is that she just seems to be taking advantage of/playing on the emotions of someone who is obviously emotionally fragile. Now that she's clearly in love with him it feels less like taking advantage of him, but at the beginning it really grated on me.

I think the major thing I'm looking forward to in Season 6 is seeing whether Flack stays emotionally healthy...I mean, Claire's death is at least part of what caused Mac's emotional damage (so I'm assuming Angell's might have a similar effect), and on top of that, Flack killed someone out of vengeance. I don't approve of what he did, but wow. It's the first time Flack has ever flunked one of the "integrity tests" that are constantly being thrown at his character, so I think it'll have some effect.

Not sure I completely agree about her earlier rejection of Danny being about taking advantage. She should've gone through with what she promised, yeah, but ... well, she basically did what Danny should've done at the beginning of Season 4. When she honestly believed she wouldn't be able to have a relationship without her issues getting in the way, she told him so and put the brakes on things. It was bad for Danny then, but it would've been a nightmare if she'd started snapping at him and pushing him away when they'd actually been in a relationship.

They are fun to talk about! Theirs is my favorite relationship on the show.

LOL, I definitely agree with this, they're my favourite relationship to watch on the show (though for me it's kind of a tie between them, Mac/Lindsay, and Stella/Lindsay).

Agreed--it would be interesting to see how I feel about her outside of the relationship, but she's never been outside of it (it was set up from the first episode and never dropped).My Mary Sue issues with her come from her never being held accountable for her bad/bratty behavior...Danny lets her walk all over him, Stella was really understanding in "Silent Night" and Mac--the biggest stickler for the rules there is!--let her off without so much as a reprimand in "Like Water for Murder" after she'd jeopardized the lab's accreditation! To me that falls under the "she can do no wrong" category of Mary Sue-dom. For once I'd like to see someone really chew Lindsay out for being a brat--maybe then I wouldn't have quite as much of a problem with the character. :lol:

Yeah, definitely. I didn't start watching NY as a series until shortly after S4 started, though, and the random, out-of-order episodes I'd seen before then didn't do much to showcase D/L (they didn't even interact in half of them); so I grew to like Lindsay long before I knew D and L were supposed to have a thing for each other. First time I saw Snow Day, I literally thought they'd just had a drunken one-night stand, because it seemed to come out of nowhere. LOL, I can't imagine what a pain it would've been to watch D/L from the very start. :lol: And I still have a problem with Mary-Sue!Lindsay sometimes, precisely because of the "can-do-no-wrong" thing you mentioned. It really seems like she's still being written as a Mary Sue.

Quote:
One other tidbit you may find interesting: I watched Consequences with the commentary on as well. Narration done by PV and Eddie Cahill. I never realized it but in that episode Lindsay talks with Mac about some black Cocaine that was destroyed with two DEA agents in attendance. The lead detective was Flack and in the narration Eddie said he was still mad about her "tattling" to Mac about it instead of coming to him. I don't know if it carries over to his character because it is never addressed in the show but if he plays on it as Flack it may have something to do with why he didn't have much use for Lindsay for such a long while. I can see how Flack could have been upset about it and will have to watch and see how the characters interact from that point forward.

I would imagine that what Lindsay did may not have sat well with Flack. Incidentally, it also shows how partial she is to Danny, since in RSRD she did make the choice to go to Danny first and not Mac. Getting back to "Consequences" though, I remember thinking the same thing when I heard the commentary.

Oh my gosh, I've never watched S3 (or any of the other DVDs) with the commentary on before! *adds to my to-do list* But yeah, I remember that moment in Consequences...never really thought about it in relation to D/L before, but it does seem kind of significant (since even Adam went to Flack first with the tip about his sister's car in S5). Maybe the loyalty issues with Lindsay only come up when it's someone she really cares about?

To me, it's always seemed that Flack and Lindsay are kind of like oil and water--they just don't mix that well. He gets frustrated with her long-winded explanations and has seemed annoyed with her teasing, sometimes playfully, but he seemed genuinely annoyed to me in "People with Money." I can't seem to find it in the interviews, but there was one with Eddie where he said the "Yes-no-yes-no" thing Lindsay pulled on Danny wouldn't fly with Flack. I can't see Flack thrilled with seeing Lindsay put Danny, who he's so protective of and who he knows is so much more vulnerable than he is, through that. I don't think he hates her, I don't even think he dislikes her, but I can see him being wary of her and concerned for Danny. He's just not usually warm with her in the same way he is with the other characters.

I still can't see genuine-annoyance in the People With Money exchange - I think if there was he just would've refused to answer (which he has done before, when it becomes obvious that people are teasing him). And I watched that episode after Daze of Wine and Roaches, the only episode he's been present for her demonstrations, and he was definitely the one to start laughing first when she started said demonstration. I'd almost agree with the lack of warmth between her vs. the other character, but he calls her "Linds" quite often; which only Hawkes and Danny do, and Stella on the odd occasion. It leads me to believe that lack of ease has more to do with the fact that he doesn't interact with her as much as he does with the other characters (and maybe to do with Lindsay's unease with people in general).

I do think there might be some level of wariness when it comes to each other...for Lindsay, that Consequences thing, and for Flack, I totally think he knew what Lindsay had put Danny through. [And yes, I totally can't see him putting up with that for a second.] But while I think he is concerned for Danny when it comes to Lindsay, I don't think it transcends to a lack of warmth, because he's never once seemed to make the leap that Lindsay doesn't care about Danny. Which I think most people would, when they're protective of their friend and wary of who they're seeing.

Especially when they witness behaviour like Lindsay's in S3. That thing in Snow Day - yeah, Flack might just have been venting his worries to Lindsay, but I think if he thought she wouldn't care, it probably would've been the equivalent of venting to one of the random SWAT guys. Even in All in the Family, I noticed little things like how he held up his phone when he called the Bail-office, so Lindsay would know who the call was being made to. And then I'm always surprised at how friendly-ish he tends to be with Lindsay at times when it really seems he should be flat-out pissed, given what I think he knows about D/L. [I also watched Daze of Wine... recently, and like in PF, Flack was calling her Linds and laughing at her jokes again.] It's like he's worried about Danny, but doesn't assume that Lindsay isn't also worried about Danny, or even assume that she's just with him to take advantage of him. Which might just be another indication of how decent a guy Flack is, not leaping to conclusions about his best friend's whatever, but ...well, at times Lindsay totally is taking advantage of Danny. Sometimes I think it would actually be better for both Danny and Lindsay's character if Flack, at least, took her to task for the pain she might be causing Danny; but he never seems to. It's not even like he just doesn't think it's his place to get involved, he just seems to naturally assume that Lindsay cares about Danny as much as he does.

Which is really decent of Flack. I agree about the oil-and-water thing, they're really different...my personal interpretation of that, though, is that Flack is kind of the level that Lindsay wants to reach. Easy with people, easy enough with emotions, but rational and cool-headed through it all.

...LOL, maybe I just like to ramble on about Flack in general :lol: I totally cut corners here, I'm sorry!

 

[Top41]

The hazing was a little sustained past Zoo York, into Youngblood (implying she wasn't good at her job), even a little in Bad Beat (though this may have been because she was teasing him about the footage). But yeah, once he did warm to her a little, he's never really gotten nasty with her.

The hazing never really got mean, though. And she certainly gave as good as she got, competing with him in "Young Blood" and teasing him about the 30th b'day footage in "Bad Beat." She got nasty with him for the first time in "Manhattan Manhunt" when she snapped at him about the nickname. Fair enough about the nickname, but what she was really mad about was being sent back to the lab--something that was Mac's call, not Danny's.

Lol, I'm not so sure with Mac...during the first few episodes, I remember Mac getting kind of snappish with Danny for things that probably shouldn't have been such a problem. [First episode, when Mac and Stella left Aiden and Danny to do the dumpster-diving, Danny just asked why they weren't sticking around and Mac snapped at him. Third episode, with the 20-year-old skeleton, Danny was kind of laughing about how the media wouldn't care about the more tragic aspect of it, and Mac was all "I do" in a kind-of-snappish way. It's why I think they've grown so much since then -- they really seemed on edge with each other that first season.]

Mac was really hard on him in season one, which just made Danny try all the harder to get into his good graces. Kind of the same way Lindsay was snappish with him... and that made him try harder to get into her good graces. Danny's got a complex, that's for sure.

That line about his "doing it all in his own" seemed to imply concern for how he was grieving, rather than concern for herself. He may not have been doing drugs or booze, but at that point he'd been skipping shifts (which Lindsay knew) and screwing away his pain with his neighbour (which Lindsay may/may not have suspected) - both of which are at least as self-destructive. I still don't think Lindsay was solely concerned with getting her boyfriend back, and I think she would've preferred it had he come to her.

See, I think she was. She didn't confront him after the skipped shift--she confronted him after he blew her off for lunch. She was mad that Danny wasn't there for her to have lunch with or just to spend time with. She made herself look like a "shallow, clingy girlfriend" by giving him crap about her birthday and shoving the folders into his hands in front of Hawkes after he turned her down for lunch. If she really wanted him to go to her, why not say exactly what Mac had told her to say in "Child's Play": "I know I'm not good at this kind of thing, but I want to be there for you." Instead, she just made a guy who was obviously already down feel worse.

But at the same time, I doubt she would've been yelling at all if Danny had actually been dealing well. She also mentioned how she thought he'd've needed someone to lean on - I think she may have still been irritated that he didn't come to her, but I can't see her having been that angry if Danny had been leaning on Flack or Rikki in a way that helped (especially given that she sent at least one of them after him in AitF).

But if she wasn't angry about him leaning on other people, why make that comment at all? Danny seemed to be doing better by "Right Next Door"--save for the turning to Rikki rather than Lindsay bit. Again, if she'd confronted him with an "I'm really worried about you," it would have made her look less selfish. But she didn't.

I guess I can see how emotional-involvement might just be an unconscious given where Danny's concerned...but I agree on how he most likely didn't make the distinction. I still don't think in Season 3, he ever actually consciously decided to be emotionally involved until Lindsay indicated that she didn't want to be.

I don't think he ever made the decision consciously, though. I think he's emotionally involved with everyone in his life. Lindsay is the one who makes decisions like that, picks and chooses how close to get to people--I don't think Danny can help it. He just is emotionally involved as soon as he gets to know someone well enough. Hell, he gets emotionally involved in many of his cases! That's just who Danny is. I don't think it was ever a choice for him. I don't think he's really capable of a fling, either. Look at "Right Next Door"--Rikki had taken what she needed and was ready to go, to flee and understandably awkward morning, and Danny was desperate to make her breakfast and give her some more of his special brand of comfort. Even with Lindsay--he wasn't just content to make her breakfast and let her go to work, he switched shifts with her so she could sleep in. Danny is emotional and sweet and caring--that's just Danny.

I'm actually still convinced he has yet to consciously decide (if he ever will) to be emotionally involved, with Lindsay herself that is. I know he is with Lucy.

I think he's absolutely emotionally involved with Lindsay. I have serious doubts about him being in love with her, but I do think he cares about and even loves her.

True...but argh, this is a huge part of why I either want to lock them in an office with a shrink, or serve them the divorce papers myself. If even flat-out telling each other that their first impressions are wrong does nothing to erase those first impressions, then they so so so should not still be together. :shifty:

It goes beyond first impressions--it's the whole dynamic that was set up between them. It was fine in season two, but once Lindsay started pushing Danny away and taking advantage of him in season three, that's when things got bad. And they never really have seemed to come back from that.

Although I do think the case in the Triangle was slightly different from Season 3...at least at the beginning of the Triangle. Danny could easily, legitimately have taken her rejection of the marriage proposal as "You're not good enough" - she didn't say anything other than "no", and then walked away.

Definitely... and that was yet another unsympathetic moment from Lindsay. Why should he have to chase her down to get an explanation as to why she won't marry him? Especially if she cares about him! It's stuff like that that just really makes it difficult for me to like or even sympathize with her.

I agree that Danny is emotional, but I'm definitely not sure he's intuitive enough to just know when something means a lot to Lindsay (they wouldn't have half the massive communication problems they do if he was). So I've always kind of assumed he knew something about the case from Lindsay. ..I mean, that's otherwise a huge leap of logic, that he just happened to show up in the right room of the right courthouse, right as Lindsay started testifying.

I assumed Mac or Stella must have filled him in honestly. Stella, really, from the way she talked to him when Lindsay called. Didn't she give him an update then? In "Sleight Out of Hand"? I honestly assumed he knew most of it second hand.

I'm not sure if Lindsay turned to Mac and Stella on purpose, or just out of necessity - she owed Stella an explanation for her behaviour in Silent Night, and it wasn't like she could've just left for Montana without giving Mac a reason.

Necessity, yes, but she could have left it at needing some personal time off. In "The Lying Game" she sat in Mac's office and filled him and Stella in on what was going on. I just remember how almost casual that conversation was. Lindsay didn't seem to be holding back at all with them--she was a little quiet, but I remember there was a lot of warmth in that scene. And I think Danny came by and saw it going on... and that he was shut out.

I wasn't thinking so much of the banter at the end of S3, but more of the goodbye card she left him, and how he seemed to appreciate it....for example, I have no clue whether or not he would've flown out to Montana had she not left the card, but I do think the fact that she left it had something to do with his "instincts" to go. Danny may be a doormat when it comes to her, but I can't see him still chasing her with no indication that she would welcome it, any more than I can see Lindsay pursuing him if he really didn't appear to be interested.

The card made him smile, but to me it kind of further showed how she was shutting him out--maybe even protecting him from it. I think the card showed him she cared to some extent, but it also in no way indicated any desire to confide in him. She didn't even reference the case--she just said she was going home. I remember there was an early spoiler that had Hawkes asking her if she was really just going to leave without saying anything to Danny, but that ended up getting cut I think. Either way, I think the fact that we were never shown anything to indicate she said anything about the case directly to Danny is significant and shows that indeed, she didn't say anything to him.

I think the major thing I'm looking forward to in Season 6 is seeing whether Flack stays emotionally healthy...I mean, Claire's death is at least part of what caused Mac's emotional damage (so I'm assuming Angell's might have a similar effect), and on top of that, Flack killed someone out of vengeance. I don't approve of what he did, but wow. It's the first time Flack has ever flunked one of the "integrity tests" that are constantly being thrown at his character, so I think it'll have some effect.

True, and I'm curious to see the emotional repercussions for Flack next season (I do think he's going to "get away with" killing the guy who murdered Angell). I think if Danny is the one who gets shot in the diner, that could really send Flack over the edge.

Not sure I completely agree about her earlier rejection of Danny being about taking advantage. She should've gone through with what she promised, yeah, but ... well, she basically did what Danny should've done at the beginning of Season 4. When she honestly believed she wouldn't be able to have a relationship without her issues getting in the way, she told him so and put the brakes on things. It was bad for Danny then, but it would've been a nightmare if she'd started snapping at him and pushing him away when they'd actually been in a relationship.

She should have done that before saying yes to a date--or hell, for all we know she was the one who asked him! Either way, she took advantage of him two episodes later in "Oedipus Hex" when she manipulated him into taking the job she didn't want.

LOL, I definitely agree with this, they're my favourite relationship to watch on the show (though for me it's kind of a tie between them, Mac/Lindsay, and Stella/Lindsay).

Mine are Danny/Flack, followed by Mac/Danny, Danny/Hawkes and Flack/Stella. A lot of great friendships on the show!

Yeah, definitely. I didn't start watching NY as a series until shortly after S4 started, though, and the random, out-of-order episodes I'd seen before then didn't do much to showcase D/L (they didn't even interact in half of them); so I grew to like Lindsay long before I knew D and L were supposed to have a thing for each other. First time I saw Snow Day, I literally thought they'd just had a drunken one-night stand, because it seemed to come out of nowhere. LOL, I can't imagine what a pain it would've been to watch D/L from the very start. :lol: And I still have a problem with Mary-Sue!Lindsay sometimes, precisely because of the "can-do-no-wrong" thing you mentioned. It really seems like she's still being written as a Mary Sue.

She is, and I can't help but thinking there's nothing in Belknap's acting that really raises her above that. It really is most evident in the way other people treat Lindsay, like she can do no wrong. That's the most frustrating, and why I'd really like to see her screw up and get in big, big trouble for it. At least then it would seem like she's on the same playing field as the others.

Oh my gosh, I've never watched S3 (or any of the other DVDs) with the commentary on before! *adds to my to-do list* But yeah, I remember that moment in Consequences...never really thought about it in relation to D/L before, but it does seem kind of significant (since even Adam went to Flack first with the tip about his sister's car in S5). Maybe the loyalty issues with Lindsay only come up when it's someone she really cares about?

Probably they do. I think taking that DNA to Danny was a big deal for her. She's something of a goodie two shoes, so I think the norm for her would not be breaking the rules. Protocol said she give the findings to Mac, period. But Flack prizes loyalty pretty highly, so I'm sure there had to be some resentment on his part.

I still can't see genuine-annoyance in the People With Money exchange - I think if there was he just would've refused to answer (which he has done before, when it becomes obvious that people are teasing him).

He didn't answer the first time. But she kept goading and Stella was there--I think he felt cornered. Not the end of the world, but he seemed irritated with her.

And I watched that episode after Daze of Wine and Roaches, the only episode he's been present for her demonstrations, and he was definitely the one to start laughing first when she started said demonstration.

Which was the episode with the flower? Just looked it up--"What Schemes May Come." Flack was genuinely annoyed with her long-winded speech about the flower in that episode. I remember Danny was around a lot in "Daze of Wine and Roaches," and, well, genuinely when Danny is around, Flack is smiling and happy (unless Danny is upset or in danger). I remember Flack joking a lot with Danny in that episode--he just seemed happy to see Danny so happy, and enjoying the camaraderie (which, admittedly, they both let Lindsay into there).

I'd almost agree with the lack of warmth between her vs. the other character, but he calls her "Linds" quite often; which only Hawkes and Danny do, and Stella on the odd occasion. It leads me to believe that lack of ease has more to do with the fact that he doesn't interact with her as much as he does with the other characters (and maybe to do with Lindsay's unease with people in general).

I think Flack accepts her for Danny. He obviously cares about Danny deeply and isn't going to mean or even cold to Lindsay most of the time. I think Flack also values being on cordial terms with those he works with. It's just that his obvious irritation with her flares up sometimes, like in "What Schemes May Come" or in little digs like his comment to Danny in "Personal Foul" about Danny needing to piss Lindsay off more often.

I do think there might be some level of wariness when it comes to each other...for Lindsay, that Consequences thing, and for Flack, I totally think he knew what Lindsay had put Danny through. [And yes, I totally can't see him putting up with that for a second.] But while I think he is concerned for Danny when it comes to Lindsay, I don't think it transcends to a lack of warmth, because he's never once seemed to make the leap that Lindsay doesn't care about Danny. Which I think most people would, when they're protective of their friend and wary of who they're seeing.

I think Flack knows she cares about Danny, but I think he also knows she's hurt Danny. I think if Flack could pick someone out for Danny, it wouldn't be Lindsay--not by a long shot. But Flack also respects Danny's right to make his own decisions.

Especially when they witness behaviour like Lindsay's in S3. That thing in Snow Day - yeah, Flack might just have been venting his worries to Lindsay, but I think if he thought she wouldn't care, it probably would've been the equivalent of venting to one of the random SWAT guys. Even in All in the Family, I noticed little things like how he held up his phone when he called the Bail-office, so Lindsay would know who the call was being made to.

I've always seen it as an uneasy truce between the two. Flack and Lindsay come together for Danny, but there's just not a lot of personal connection there. They don't really look at each other, console each other or even discuss it in depth with each other. They work together to help Danny, but that's it. It doesn't go beyond that. As soon as Danny was rescued in "Snow Day," she dragged him away from Flack. And as soon as he'd gotten Lindsay's help in "All in the Family," Flack took off on his own and forgot about Lindsay. The connection between them is Danny...and that's it.

And then I'm always surprised at how friendly-ish he tends to be with Lindsay at times when it really seems he should be flat-out pissed, given what I think he knows about D/L.

I see him as being cold to her as often as he is friendly, really. The friendly instances are situational--Danny is around or there's something they can relate on (Laughing Larry). His dig at her in "Personal Foul" still really stands out to me as a moment he could kind of express his real feelings about Lindsay to Danny when Danny would perhaps be receptive to hearing them.

[I also watched Daze of Wine... recently, and like in PF, Flack was calling her Linds and laughing at her jokes again.]

When Danny was around.

It's like he's worried about Danny, but doesn't assume that Lindsay isn't also worried about Danny, or even assume that she's just with him to take advantage of him. Which might just be another indication of how decent a guy Flack is, not leaping to conclusions about his best friend's whatever, but ...well, at times Lindsay totally is taking advantage of Danny.

Flack doesn't step in unless Danny asks him or it's clear Danny needs help (as in "All in the Family"). I think Flack keeps his own counsel--it would be very interested to hear what he'd say to Danny (or would have said, prior to the baby and marriage) about what he really thought of Lindsay if Danny had asked.

Sometimes I think it would actually be better for both Danny and Lindsay's character if Flack, at least, took her to task for the pain she might be causing Danny; but he never seems to. It's not even like he just doesn't think it's his place to get involved, he just seems to naturally assume that Lindsay cares about Danny as much as he does.

I wish Flack had taken Lindsay to task for her treatment of Danny, especially in season four! That would have been great to see. But I really do think he doesn't feel it's his place to get involved, or that if he's going to talk to someone, it should be Danny. Again...the comment in "Personal Foul" is pretty telling to me.

Which is really decent of Flack. I agree about the oil-and-water thing, they're really different...my personal interpretation of that, though, is that Flack is kind of the level that Lindsay wants to reach. Easy with people, easy enough with emotions, but rational and cool-headed through it all.

...LOL, maybe I just like to ramble on about Flack in general :lol: I totally cut corners here, I'm sorry!

I love talking about Flack! Still waters run deep there. It's funny--he's this total stoic, together guy, but has this deep friendship with Danny, who couldn't be more different from him. One of my favorite things about the show!

 

[Maya316]

The hazing never really got mean, though. And she certainly gave as good as she got, competing with him in "Young Blood" and teasing him about the 30th b'day footage in "Bad Beat." She got nasty with him for the first time in "Manhattan Manhunt" when she snapped at him about the nickname. Fair enough about the nickname, but what she was really mad about was being sent back to the lab--something that was Mac's call, not Danny's.

I think Lindsay took the hazing as mean; she looked downright angry in Young Blood - hence the competing - and kind of taken aback when he was short with her in Bad Blood. But yeah, I don't think Danny meant it as harshly as she seemed to take it. So should we be judging in terms of nastiness in general, or how meanly it may have been taken by the person getting hazed/snapped at/ignored/etc? (Definitely true about Manhattan Manhunt, but Danny didn't seem the least bit bothered when she snapped at him).

Mac was really hard on him in season one, which just made Danny try all the harder to get into his good graces. Kind of the same way Lindsay was snappish with him... and that made him try harder to get into her good graces. Danny's got a complex, that's for sure.

Yeah, definitely. But at least with Mac, he seemed willing to believe it when he'd finally made it into Mac's good graces.

See, I think she was. She didn't confront him after the skipped shift--she confronted him after he blew her off for lunch. She was mad that Danny wasn't there for her to have lunch with or just to spend time with. She made herself look like a "shallow, clingy girlfriend" by giving him crap about her birthday and shoving the folders into his hands in front of Hawkes after he turned her down for lunch. If she really wanted him to go to her, why not say exactly what Mac had told her to say in "Child's Play": "I know I'm not good at this kind of thing, but I want to be there for you." Instead, she just made a guy who was obviously already down feel worse.

Presumably, Danny didn't do anything to set her off after the skipped shift. She was angry about it, though - I remember she was kind of sullen toward him at the beginning of Playing With Matches. Just as quietly-sullen as she was about the skipped lunch in RND. She was mad about both things, and if you ask me, didn't intend to confront him about either. If Danny had just gone to get coffee without pressing her about it, I doubt he'd've ever heard her outburst. Which is why I saw it as general concern. If she just wanted her boyfriend back, I don't think that Danny would've been able to set her off with the comments he made - she would've just accepted the coffee. If it was at all about her birthday...well, it kind of seemed obvious that Danny was trying to make that up to her, and she would've just taken the peace offering.

But if she wasn't angry about him leaning on other people, why make that comment at all? Danny seemed to be doing better by "Right Next Door"--save for the turning to Rikki rather than Lindsay bit. Again, if she'd confronted him with an "I'm really worried about you," it would have made her look less selfish. But she didn't.

He wasn't leaning on them - that was the problem, and that's why I think she made the comment. I really disagree that he was doing better by Right Next Door. Even if we discount the fact that it was him who was pushing to continue that self-destructive thing he had with Rikki (whether or not Rikki came on to him first, even she seemed to realize by the next morning that it was a bad idea), and how insensitive he might've been acting toward Lindsay; at least in the episodes shortly following Child's Play he wasn't showing up to work looking like he'd just rolled out of bed. It really seemed like he was headed in this downward spiral until he hit rock-bottom.

I think he's absolutely emotionally involved with Lindsay. I have serious doubts about him being in love with her, but I do think he cares about and even loves her.

This comes back to the division I see in his perception of Lindsay - I think he's totally emotionally involved with the Lindsay he sees as a friend and coworker. It's the Lindsay that's his girlfriend/wife that I don't see him being emotionally invested with. Which, hey, means that at least he cares about her in some way, but that's why it drives me crazy that he insists on keeping Lindsay as his girlfriend/wife.

Definitely... and that was yet another unsympathetic moment from Lindsay. Why should he have to chase her down to get an explanation as to why she won't marry him? Especially if she cares about him! It's stuff like that that just really makes it difficult for me to like or even sympathize with her.

I found it very easy to sympathize with her in that scene - I actually thought it was a little ridiculous that Danny even needed an explanation as to why. (He didn't have to chase her for it, though, they were just kind of walking together when he suddenly demanded to know why.) A baby is so not a good enough reason to get married, and Danny knew perfectly well that that was his only reason for asking. Top that with the fact that she loved him, while he was asking for a reason almost entirely unconnected with her, and all their other issues; it really seemed like - then, anyway - she was trying to prevent the mass disaster I fully expect to see in Season 6.

Necessity, yes, but she could have left it at needing some personal time off. In "The Lying Game" she sat in Mac's office and filled him and Stella in on what was going on. I just remember how almost casual that conversation was. Lindsay didn't seem to be holding back at all with them--she was a little quiet, but I remember there was a lot of warmth in that scene. And I think Danny came by and saw it going on... and that he was shut out.

I remember that scene, but I definitely don't remember Lindsay sounding casual. (And I can't see Mac allowing her to take personal time without knowing why...he kind of just looked at her until she started spilling her explanation.) She seemed awkward to me when she was telling Mac what was going on, almost like she'd rather not - she was basically talking about the trial as though it were just a random case, only reluctantly mentioning that the victims were her friends - and it was Mac who had to bring up the fact that she'd also been a witness/survivor. And then as soon as she let the comment about "faces" slip, she seemed embarrassed and made the first move to leave. I remember her hug with Stella being almost comfortable, but I thought she seemed surprised when Mac wanted to hug her as well. It's one of my favourite Lindsay scenes, because I thought it completely epitomized her issues with people. Here were two people who were obviously concerned about her and cared, and it was like she was glad they cared, but couldn't get out of the office fast enough.

I remember Danny coming by when all the hugging was going on, but given Lindsay's awkwardness in that scene and how she wasn't meeting anyone's eye when she left the office, I really think spilling to anyone else was the last thing on her mind.

The card made him smile, but to me it kind of further showed how she was shutting him out--maybe even protecting him from it. I think the card showed him she cared to some extent, but it also in no way indicated any desire to confide in him. She didn't even reference the case--she just said she was going home. I remember there was an early spoiler that had Hawkes asking her if she was really just going to leave without saying anything to Danny, but that ended up getting cut I think. Either way, I think the fact that we were never shown anything to indicate she said anything about the case directly to Danny is significant and shows that indeed, she didn't say anything to him.

True...that card thing is definitely one of the things I class among Lindsay's "trying and failing" attempts with people and showing that she cares. I thought it was significant that she left the card at all, because she didn't say goodbye to anyone else she wasn't forced to say bye to (even Hawkes, who practically saw her leave, didn't really get a goodbye - yeah, that was the spoiler you mentioned, but that scene was left in). That's why I thought Danny smiled. But at the same time, she didn't tell him anything about what was going on.

True, and I'm curious to see the emotional repercussions for Flack next season (I do think he's going to "get away with" killing the guy who murdered Angell). I think if Danny is the one who gets shot in the diner, that could really send Flack over the edge.

I think he'll get away with it too, if only because I can't see the writers going down that road again. After the number of times IAB's investigated the people on this team, it's practically becoming a cliche. He may go over the edge if Danny gets hurt (though I don't think that'll be an issue), but just in general, he's already started to slip down from his integrity-pedestal...I'm just wondering if he'll be able to climb back up or if that thing at the end of Pay Up was kind of like opening a gate for him.

She should have done that before saying yes to a date--or hell, for all we know she was the one who asked him! Either way, she took advantage of him two episodes later in "Oedipus Hex" when she manipulated him into taking the job she didn't want.

I can't condemn Danny for not doing what I think he should've done (and certainly before sleeping with Lindsay), but not approve of Lindsay doing exactly that same thing. I think at the time she was setting the date, she did think she'd be able to go through with a relationship; although yeah, she should've at least sent him a text so he wasn't sitting there on the date alone.

Mine are Danny/Flack, followed by Mac/Danny, Danny/Hawkes and Flack/Stella. A lot of great friendships on the show!

Danny/Adam! I was iffy at first, but that friendship has definitely grown on me.

She is, and I can't help but thinking there's nothing in Belknap's acting that really raises her above that. It really is most evident in the way other people treat Lindsay, like she can do no wrong. That's the most frustrating, and why I'd really like to see her screw up and get in big, big trouble for it. At least then it would seem like she's on the same playing field as the others.

The thing is, without Belknap's acting I'm absolutely convinced we would've been seeing a constantly-perky, constantly-sweet, genuinely-warm-and-endearing-herself-to-everyone Lindsay whom everyone adored without measure, who could do no wrong, and who I would constantly want to kick very hard. I don't know if the element of aloofness to Lindsay's character was purposely scripted or not, but that was the main thing that stopped me from seeing Lindsay as a complete Mary Sue, the fact that she wasn't completely perfect and it would actually be a little hard to adore her without measure. I'm inclined to think the aloofness wasn't scripted, though. Because the times when Lindsay's aloofness make her act erratically are also the times the other characters seem to forgive her, or let her walk all over them, no matter what she's done. She's still being written as a Mary Sue - I think that's part of what makes her character so unsympathetic a lot of the time (if she can do no wrong, then she's never treated like she has done wrong). For example, Lindsay was equally at fault in the D/L fallout of RND, but I don't think the writers meant for us to see it that way. I think they meant for us to see Lindsay as totally in the right, and given the backlash against Danny I keep running into online, I'd say it worked for part of the fandom.

He didn't answer the first time. But she kept goading and Stella was there--I think he felt cornered. Not the end of the world, but he seemed irritated with her.

I don't see what he would've felt cornered by - when Stella started teasing him about his girlfriend in You Only Die Once, didn't he just change the subject? He doesn't strike me as one to give into peer pressure.

Which was the episode with the flower? Just looked it up--"What Schemes May Come." Flack was genuinely annoyed with her long-winded speech about the flower in that episode.

What Schemes May Come is the episode I was referring to, I completely forgot what it was called. :lol: Yeah, that's the one where he was the first to be entertained by her demonstration (the only time he's been present for her demonstrations). The only time I can think of where he might've been annoyed was when he mentioned there were lots of greenhouses in New York (a while after her speech ended), and even then I'd hesitate to say it was annoyance. I think Lindsay would've been a lot more standoffish with her retort if she'd sensed annoyance.

I remember Danny was around a lot in "Daze of Wine and Roaches," and, well, genuinely when Danny is around, Flack is smiling and happy (unless Danny is upset or in danger). I remember Flack joking a lot with Danny in that episode--he just seemed happy to see Danny so happy, and enjoying the camaraderie (which, admittedly, they both let Lindsay into there).

True, Flack may have been more comfortable just because Danny was there...still not sure this would extend to nicknaming Lindsay and laughing at the jokes she made at Danny's expense (something about Danny's favourite wine). Especially not knowing that she'd shot him down, left without an in-person goodbye, and Danny still flew to Montana on no sleep after a 24-hour shift...and then witnessing her making jokes at Danny's expense. I mean, unless they could at least partly understand things from Lindsay's point of view, I don't see how anyone else would not be giving her the silent treatment (at the very least) after all that. Because if we're just looking from the point-of-view of someone who's concerned with Danny...that really, really seems like Lindsay was just taking advantage of him.

I think Flack accepts her for Danny. He obviously cares about Danny deeply and isn't going to mean or even cold to Lindsay most of the time. I think Flack also values being on cordial terms with those he works with. It's just that his obvious irritation with her flares up sometimes, like in "What Schemes May Come" or in little digs like his comment to Danny in "Personal Foul" about Danny needing to piss Lindsay off more often.

I think Danny honestly wouldn't care if Flack were mean/cold to Lindsay, I certainly can't see him holding it against Flack. Like you mentioned with the Personal Foul thing, Danny laughed when Flack made that dig. So I really don't think it's Danny who's holding Flack back from showing his irritation to Lindsay directly, if he does want to be cold to her. If he didn't want to accept her, I don't think consideration for Danny would make him.

I think Flack knows she cares about Danny, but I think he also knows she's hurt Danny. I think if Flack could pick someone out for Danny, it wouldn't be Lindsay--not by a long shot. But Flack also respects Danny's right to make his own decisions.

Yeah, I definitely agree that if Flack could pick someone for Danny, it wouldn't be Lindsay. Hell, I don't think even Lindsay would've picked herself for Danny's ideal person - she usually seems to be aware of how much they just don't work as a couple. She seemed to know from way back in Season 2 that she wouldn't be able to give Danny what he needed in terms of emotional support.

The thing is, I think it's very hard to tell that Lindsay cares about Danny unless you're trying to understand things from her point-of-view. I think it would be even harder to tell this when you're looking through the eyes of someone who cares about Danny and have seen how much she's hurt him. So I just find it impressive that Flack manages to tell that about Lindsay anyway.

I've always seen it as an uneasy truce between the two. Flack and Lindsay come together for Danny, but there's just not a lot of personal connection there. They don't really look at each other, console each other or even discuss it in depth with each other. They work together to help Danny, but that's it. It doesn't go beyond that. As soon as Danny was rescued in "Snow Day," she dragged him away from Flack. And as soon as he'd gotten Lindsay's help in "All in the Family," Flack took off on his own and forgot about Lindsay. The connection between them is Danny...and that's it.

I see it as a certain level of personal connection when she calls him by his first name, and my favoured interactions between them are usually the ones where Danny is not in trouble, or even involved. The instances where Danny is in trouble usually don't leave much room for discussion or consolation, though - hostage situation, Danny disappearing (and if Flack forgot about Lindsay after AitF, that means she must've gotten her info about that day from Danny. Which I doubt she did.).

I see him as being cold to her as often as he is friendly, really. The friendly instances are situational--Danny is around or there's something they can relate on (Laughing Larry). His dig at her in "Personal Foul" still really stands out to me as a moment he could kind of express his real feelings about Lindsay to Danny when Danny would perhaps be receptive to hearing them.

They certainly weren't relating on the doll thing in Silicone, and I definitely thought it was friendly-ish of Flack to not say anything when Lindsay got bossy with him in Dead Inside. He seemed amused, rather than aghast when Sam mistook her for his girlfriend...and if he really didn't trust her, why not take Sam outside to argue, rather than argue in Lindsay's plain sight (and how awkward would that ride back to the precinct have been?)?

The other thing is, Personal Foul shows me that Flack can express whatever feelings he might have to Danny, without worrying about Danny's reception. I don't think it was just about assuming Danny would want to hear his irritation - it was about Flack being someone who says what he wants, when he wants. It wasn't like Danny was mad at Lindsay (presumably, or he definitely shouldn't have been chasing her), but he laughed anyway; which is, again, why I don't think Flack ever had the impression that he should hide what he feels about Lindsay around Danny, if he's irritated with her. And Flack's just not the kind of guy to be nice to people's faces and bitch about them behind their backs, so I think if he genuinely was irritated with Lindsay, Lindsay would know about it.

I love talking about Flack! Still waters run deep there. It's funny--he's this total stoic, together guy, but has this deep friendship with Danny, who couldn't be more different from him. One of my favorite things about the show!

He is, I love it! He's so completely level-headed and rational - maybe I just have a thing about stoic characters; other than Lindsay, he's definitely my favourite But unlike Lindsay, he's so open to emotions that he can take on Danny...which I guess is why I find him so interesting.

Argh, I had to cut out so much because my post was overlong