Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by CSI Cupcake, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    I guess I don't really see it as a conscious thing...I think Flack was focused on helping Danny, period. Flack gets tunnel vision when it comes to Danny...at the end of the episode, he was talking to Angell, but the minute Danny walked in with Rikki, it was like there was no one else in the room. He really worries about Danny's well-being, physical and mental, quite a lot. So I can easily see him focused on making sure Danny was safe and okay mentally, and not so worried about telling him Lindsay alerted him to what was going on with Danny.

    I always assumed he was calling her at the lab, and figured he'd had the lab number memorized. I just don't see a lot of warmth between the two in the episode, but to be fair, they were both pretty worried about Danny.

    If I recall correctly, he was already on his way out when she came in, so I don't think he was running from her so much that he was already running and didn't stop for her. He did blow her off in "Right Next Door," but I always saw that as too little, too late from her anyway.

    Agreed...I think it's something she needs to learn how to do. I hope that there's a situation this season where we see her do that.

    She was completely smitten with Danny by season four, I think. Love makes you happy. I also think she was a lot closer with the team and therefore more comfortable being around them and relaxing a bit.

    I guess I see her more at that point now than before because the trial really seemed to provide closure for her. Whether that was because they didn't want to give Belknap any more emotional scenes or because Lindsay actually found peace, I don't know. But that chapter does seem to be closed.

    Determination and strength kind of go hand in hand--the weak just give up or go about things in really unhealthy ways. Lindsay being determined to face her demons and be friendly at work with Danny doesn't seem that unhealthy or fragile to me.

    Stella seemed pretty concerned, but Lindsay didn't seem to want to let anyone in. I think she's gotten good at sorting her own stuff out without anyone's support. Maybe she's one of those people who thinks she's stronger if she does things on her own. Whereas Danny just falls apart in front of everyone and everyone rushes to his side to make sure he's okay, because they know if he don't, he won't get to okay on his own.

    I can't see Danny with his issues sorted, either. :lol: As for her trusting him, I kind of come back to it being a mistake to marry him in that case. What's a marriage without trust? But I know we agree on the marriage being a mistake.

    He makes me laugh at him rather than with him, like I do at Flack. Flack is just a funny guy--he cracks me up with his comments and his snark. Like you say, Danny's funniest moments are when he's not trying to be funny. Though that "N(e)R(d)" equation in "Admissions" was pretty funny!

    But that's Danny--of course he took her shift, of course he left her the flower...it's easier for him to give and be taken advantage of (not that she did that there) than it is for him to be in a healthy relationship.


    Yeah, Danny does seem to freak out on those cases, which makes me think he was betrayed by someone he should have been able to trust.

    Yeah, and it's entirely possible, though that wouldn't explain why Danny perceived her as not reaching out to him at all. I really think a lot of his pulling away was because he didn't see her reaching out to him at all. I don't think Flack did it maliciously, but his focal point was on keeping Danny safe. What happened after Lindsay told him also seemed to be more about Flack and Danny's relationship, at least in Flack's eyes. When Danny asked why Flack didn't mind his own business, Flack's response was, "You're my friend. Makes it my business." He was thinking about him and Danny, not Danny and Lindsay. I don't think it was a selfish thing...just kind of natural when you've spent the whole afternoon saving the guy's butt!
     
  2. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I hope it's okay I'm probably double-posting with this - I just found all this new stuff, and I didn't want to go back and edit my last post too much :)


    Yeah, I should've said "holding him at an emotional distance", rather than "at a distance" like she was trying to avoid him through Season 2. Because that's definitely not what she was doing. What interested me about Lindsay in S2 (once I watched the whole thing straight through), was how she seemed almost cautiously intrigued by Danny, but at the same time so wary of getting involved with him on an emotional level. Like she was afraid of not being able to help but care about him, but at the same time determined not to. She talked about him to others, flirted with him lightly (to illustrate my point, the only time she seemed really uncomfortable with their flirting was when Danny made his "marry me" remark in Super Men) - but brushed him off whenever he tried to show concern about her. The several "I'm fines" in All Access, and the way she seemed almost angry about the fact that she'd told Danny she was worried about Stella; the way she wouldn't tell him anything in Stealing Home though it was obvious she was on edge, and then seemed irritated that he'd gone to Mac with his worries; and the way she almost-literally brushed him off when he asked about her cut in CotP; and then coupled with the way she seemed to disappear whenever he was going through emotional turmoil. It just really seemed like she wanted to have Danny in her life, so long as nothing emotional was ever touched on. Which was a similar emotional distance to the one she held the rest of the team at.

    I saw the same thing. The phone call was mostly the reason I really didn't see Danny and Lindsay still being in an "on-again" phase during RND, because it really didn't seem like Danny thought he had a reason to be guilty. Rikki's being there had nothing to do with the reason he blew Lindsay off for lunch (especially since Lindsay said after his shift, she'd buy him lunch - Rikki would probably have been long gone). But that's also why the whole phone call made it really seem like Danny was in general blowing off any attempts of Lindsay to reach out to him. I don't think he would've said yes even if he hadn't been sleeping with Rikki.

    LOL, ReCycling, that's the episode I was just thinking about. Honestly, Danny's reaction to the pedophile gave me a little chill, the first time I watched it - I mean, Stella seemed pretty disgusted by the guy too, but Danny seemed to take it so personally. But what would that mean for Danny's character, if that's what he went through as a kid? I agree he has no problems with women, and he does seem to have issues when people express disapproval, but for the most part he seems to have very healthy relationships with other male characters (Flack, Hawkes).
     
  3. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Yeah, I can see that. She doesn't really like to share what's going on with her emotionally. In a way, she's much more like the stereotypical guy--she wants to deal with her crap on her own. She's okay doing something active to help Danny--bringing him the DNA, sending Flack after him, running that number from the pad of paper--but when it comes to dealing with his emotions, she's not really comfortable.

    He was definitely pulling away from her at that point, but I always saw it being because she never reached out to him. For someone like Danny, to ignore what he's going through would create gap that would only grow...and I saw it as getting to that point by RND. By not reaching out to him, she showed Danny (in his mind) that she didn't care about him, so why would she want to be with him or care if he was sleeping with someone else? By the time she finally reached out, he didn't even see it as reaching out, because she hadn't done so at all with him before.

    His relationships with men his own age are good, but I always thought that his relationship with Mac was a little off--he was so desperate for attention of any kind from Mac, even negative attention. And when he got it, he just kind of sat and took it like he expected it. Positive attention seems to baffle him. He obviously respects women, but when it comes to relationships, he uses sex as a tool and doesn't seem to value himself. Danny definitely seemed to take that pedophile personally. I kind of always have suspected sexual abuse by an older male relative with him. It seems like it would explain the low self-esteem, the weird way he uses sex to placate/fix people and the needy way he related to Mac early on. It also might explain his emotional issues, too--the way he just kind of shuts down in the face of adversity.

    I think it could have been physical abuse, too, though. I just hope we find out what it is someday, because it seems to me that whatever it is will be a big piece of the puzzle that is Danny.
     
  4. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I agree he was focused on helping Danny during that episode, though that's kind of why I've always assumed he told him about Lindsay being worried after - in one of those offscreen moments that we should get to see, but don't. Although Danny did leave the station at the end of the episode, it's possible that after never happened. But in that case, I guess I could see Flack having unconsciously let the fact that Lindsay was worried slip - which I can't think was meant out of rivalry. If he worries about Danny's well-being that much, he can't have not realized that Danny would be helped by knowing how many people care about him.

    Maybe, though it's a heck of a coincidence that she was the one who answered at the lab. At the very least, he had to know her extension. I agree that warmth wasn't the highlight of their scenes in this episode, but I've always just taken that undercurrent of unease to be unease about Danny.

    I totally have to watch Child's Play again. :lol: But I'm not seeing how RND could've been too little, too late, given that that's the point he seemed to have hit rock-bottom; and it probably would've helped to talk, had he wanted to. There were only four episodes between Child's Play and Right Next Door - in that time we saw her find him in the morgue/possibly chase after him, cover his shift (and he had to have figured that someone did this for him, since he didn't get in trouble for missing said shift), send Flack after him, try to get him to go to lunch with her...she didn't try with the tenacity he did in season 3, and maybe she should have. But all things considered, she didn't do horribly, and we didn't see him throw her a bone even once. A bone that he threw Flack, Mac, even Adam/Angell/whoever-it-was-in-that-scene-in-Happily Never After.

    I agree; if she's going to be in a relationship with Danny, she's probably going to need to put herself out on the line more (something she seems to be doing slowly).

    True, she was closer with the team in S4, which would probably make it easier (when happy) to drop her walls than it would've in S2. Only I don't know, it really seemed like the happiness-thus-wall-dropping was related to Danny. I mean, theoretically she should've been even more comfortable with the team in season 5 than season 4, but there was that whole roundabout-conversation with Stella about the "friend" who was pregnant. Lindsay was the one making all those comments about Drew "wanting to get physical" with Stella, you'd think after that she'd be more comfortable with telling Stella about her own pregnancy.

    I definitely agree she seems happier with herself now than she did in seasons 2-and 3, when she wasn't letting herself care about anyone. And the trial did provide some kind of closure (probably explains why she's at least letting herself feel enough to get hurt in S4 and 5), but I don't know, I guess it's just troubling that the repressed-14-year-old emotions and the walls - all things that seem to have been a consequence of her friends' murders - are still around. I don't see the writers going back to the trial or the murder either, but I do think if something else traumatic were to happen, she'd probably end up dealing the same way she did leading up to the trial.

    Determination gives a sense of strength, I think, though I don't necessarily agree that one must equal the other. And I know you have to be strong to at least want to face something, but I also think most of the strength would actually show in her being able to stick out the full situation. Which we've never really seen Lindsay do without some sort of crutch. It's not unhealthy that she wants to face her battles, I'm looking more at the fact that she often doesn't seem able to. Because when she's thrown herself into things, and then finds out she can't see those things through to the end, her coping mechanism (retreat) ends up being more destructive to her than her determination. Realistically, Mac should've fired her in LWFM.

    I definitely agree with this, about Lindsay and about Danny. But the thing is, everyone knows Danny won't get to okay on his own, and that's why they rush to him. If Lindsay doesn't get to okay on her own - well, people might rush, but they'd first have to figure out that she hasn't gotten to okay. And maybe that's where I can't agree about whether Lindsay's okay or not - she sorts stuff on her own, but never really seems to deal with them. I still think Danny's showing up (and the relationship that evolved from that) was the crutch that helped her find peace with the trial and her friends' deaths. Yeah, getting through the trial was probably a larger bit of closure, but we don't know if she would've been able to do that without Danny.

    He made me laugh with that comment about the golf-guy's "friends being all choked up" about his death - it was a Season 2 episode, don't remember the name. Yeah, the Nerd thing was also hilarious :lol:

    Exactly. I came to the same conclusion, but what does that say about his current relationships? He seems able to trust Mac and Flack and Hawkes, at least.

    But that's kind of why I have trouble with that interpretation of Danny's behaviour. I can see how he may have felt that the door wasn't opened enough when it came to Lindsay-after-Ruben, especially given most of Lindsay's behind-the-scenes support. But I'm still not buying that he had no idea she was helping him, or that she was concerned. Even assuming Flack didn't eventually tell him about her worry (still think this has to be a big if, though Flack may have been overly-focused on just Danny), he had to know someone covered his shift that day. It's not like he called in sick. He knew it was her who came to him in the morgue, because he reacted to hearing her concern. And unless he really did just see her being a clingy girlfriend, I don't know how else he could've interpreted her offer to buy him lunch (especially given how peeved she was about him missing her birthday - at the very least, he had to have seen it as a peace offering).
     
  5. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Oh, I know I'm double-posting this time, but this is exactly what I mean! Yes, Lindsay does seem more like the stereotypical guy. :lol: It's just beyond weird how Danny, the guy who used to complain about talking with his girlfriend, is always the only one who seems to want to talk when it comes to D/L. And Lindsay seems to be so much better at the behind-the-scenes support than she is when it comes to direct emotional support.

    I can see that having been Danny's thought process about Rikki - Lindsay not caring, therefore they must not be together - but I'm not sure about the pulling away. I've never really quite gotten the shock over Danny's behaviour (toward Lindsay) after Ruben's death, because to me he never really seemed to be pulling away any more than he had been at the beginning of season 4. I'd agree about the pulling-away if he hadn't been all friendly-ish with her in Playing with Matches, being happy because she reluctantly laughed at his lame joke (something about people coming from another galaxy). At that point, he seemed to have viewed her as at least a friend [and he's always seemed fine with her in a just-friends capacity], and it couldn't have been that shocking that a friend would want to buy you lunch even if they weren't reaching out. I totally think he would've said yes if it had been Hawkes offering to buy lunch. I think he said no to Lindsay because he knew perfectly well what going to lunch with her would entail - talking about how he was doing.

    I agree his relationship with Mac is always a little more off, but I guess I always viewed this being because of its slightly-paternal nature (Danny is the only character who seems to view Mac as an actual father-figure - the others see him as more of a leader). With Mac he's always seemed more desperate for approval, rather than just attention - the thing in Crime and Misdemeanour read more like he was hoping Mac actually would give him a pat on the back for finishing the case, maybe that Mac would approve of his tenacity. And then he seemed genuinely shocked when Mac ... you know, didn't. He only seemed to go to that psych evaluation in the baseball episode because he wanted Mac's approval, and then seemed disappointed again when he didn't get it. It really seemed to cut him badly when Mac showed his disapproval in On the Job, then he was so desperate to prove he wasn't in the wrong in Run Silent. Heck, I think half the reason he asked Lindsay to marry him was because he seemed to think Mac would approve of it if he did. I guess what I find weird is why Danny would always look to Mac to be a father figure that was proud of him. That would definitely read like Danny was abused by his father in the past.
     
  6. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    I know that Flack flipped once he found out Danny's gun was in Rikki's hands and that became his focus, even more so than Danny's emotinal well-being. I kind of got the impression that he was once again cleaning up someone else's mess, even though it was Danny and he cared about him as a friend. Nothing wrong with that. And the fact that he didn't tell Lindsay could have had more to do with the gun thing than anything else cause he didn't tell her much. I think it was wrong if he didn't tell Danny she was concerned, because as you said, it would have let Danny know that she (anyone really) cared about what he was going through and reached out. Especially in light of the fact that Don knew she was lying for him to Mac and probably doing his work (my assumption on the work thing. I can see it as something she would do for him). That scene at the station at the end would have been the perfect time to include others but Flack restricted the statment to himself. A bit disappointing for someone with so much integrity.

    I know what you mean, and you are right...He is so incredibly messed up.

    I bet it never occurred to him that he could CALL her and express his concern that way...and get a good night's sleep too. The lengths he goes to are definitely extreme. It's like he doesn't understand limits of what is enough and what is too much. He always goes for too much, which makes me feel like he thinks anything he does that is not extreme makes him inadequate in some way. So he over gives, almost like he's trying to make up for something.

    I never thought of that. I had to go back and find the scene from ReCycling and watch it after reading this. They never even commented on that specific part of the scene in the commentary but I can see where you could go there with the thought. It's interesting as well that they have never done a case with a pedaphile on the show since then. They have done just about every other deviant in the book but have never touched on that one, to my knowledge. If you know of one let me know. So you may just have something there. And if they've never thought of it in the writing process it would be a great episode, even better now that he's married with a child of his own. Hopefully we will see what Danny's past is before the show ends.

    From Maya316
    Nah, he was on a cell phone so he had her number.;) I thought the unease came from the fact that they were hiding what they knew from Mac so Danny wouldn't get in trouble at work. I'd be uneasy if I were running tests I shouldn't be for someone that I'd just lied for:shifty:.

    Thank you Maya316. The only thing I can imagine is that they were on different shifts because in RND she was at work and his shift had not started yet. She asked him to have lunch before his shift started that day. Then when she told him she loved him it was the next day so they may have been missing each other at work due to shifts.

    From Maya316
    As we are the only three in this thread, and debating with the administrator, I'm hping she won't mind too much.;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2009
  7. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    ^ETA: No, no one will mind about the double-posting in here, lol. These are clearly not short, spammish responses meant to up post-count, that's for sure! :lol:

    I admit, I get hung up on the offscreen stuff. Unless we hear about it, it's hard for me to assume such and such happened. I mean, it could have, but on the same hand, it may not have. It's the same with Danny supporting Flack off-screen in the episode where Flack was suspected of killing a suspect. Did Danny reach out to him off-screen? Probably, maybe, possibly...but without seeing it on screen, I can't really feel comfortable making that assumption. The same is true of Flack telling Danny about Lindsay's involvement, or Lindsay reaching out to Danny to talk. It could have happened...but it also may not have.

    The only effort we know for sure that Danny knows she made was the attempt in the morgue. And if she never even tried again to approach him, I can see why it would have come off as half-hearted to him. He's supposed to be someone she cares about, and she only tries once? Four episodes in between...and not one effort from her (that we know he knows about). All he got was a complaint about him missing her birthday. I can see why he'd feel it was "too little, too late," yeah.

    As for the shift, for all he knew Flack asked someone else to cover for him. Or maybe he did know she covered for him, but he could have seen it as payback for "Snow Day," when he took her shift.

    Well, we've established she's not very open with herself and her own issues. It's one thing to joke about a hot guy interested in her colleague; it's another to tell said colleague about her unexpected pregnancy. Just another reason I don't really see a lot of girl bonding between Lindsay and Stella.

    Maybe...although with a husband and baby, I don't think she can deal with her issues in the same way. If she pushes Danny away while they're married that will crush his confidence, and likely destroy their marriage.

    He should have at least reprimanded her, but I see that as more of a careless action than a direct line up between her determination vs. her coping mechanism. An better example of weakness might be her going back to Danny in "Personal Foul" when he hadn't said he loved her, too, even after she repeated her declaration and when it was pretty obvious he was just saying enough to lure her back in, to presumably get to the point where he could offer her something he thought would be able to convince her for real--sex.

    I think she would have been able to do it without him--he still seemed the needier of the two, even in that sequence. I don't know if it was so much about her needing him there as it was about him needing to be there for her. I think having him there helped, and she was obviously grateful, but I think she would have gotten through either way. We won't really ever know, though, since he did show up.

    To an extent. He keeps expecting Mac to give up on him or chastise him (or he did in earlier seasons) and Flack really has to push to get him to listen sometimes.

    I still think all he knew about was the morgue, and the fact that she never followed it up probably nagged at him. With the offer to buy lunch, I wonder if he was purposefully distancing himself from her at that point. He needed people around him who cared about him, she showed him she didn't, so he was holding her at arm's length.

    It's a good question, why he blew her off for that lunch, since as you guys have mentioned, he could have gone. Maybe he didn't want her to find out and get hurt by what he was doing with Rikki, even though in his mind they were over? Maybe he thought the birthday thing hurt her and he should avoid causing further damage? I don't know. I still come back to him being hurt she didn't reach out to him/wasn't there for him and not feeling strong enough to open himself up for more of that. She sounded pretty light and cheery on the phone when she called him--maybe he didn't want to meet her for lunch and have to pretend everything was okay when it really, really wasn't.

    I really think Danny complaining about that girl one time was a one-off--he's so the stereotypical "woman" in the relationship! :lol: Danny loves to talk about his feelings...he's constantly letting people know how he feels, reacting to things, even turning to guys like Mac and Flack when he needs help. Lindsay doesn't seem to want to talk about feelings and the like.

    See, I kind of think the opposite. Lindsay hadn't checked in on him at all, emotionally, so maybe he didn't want to have to go to lunch and pretend he was okay, make small talk, get chewed out about her birthday again...when he had much bigger things on his mind.

    Yeah, I wonder if Danny's father was abusive as well. He hasn't said too much about him aside from the gypsy cab driver story, but the fact that Danny seeks a father figure so desperately in Mac and seems so determined to win his approval--and so crushed when he doesn't--says to me that his relationship with his own father was messed up on some fundamental level.

    Really? I got the sense that he was really, really worried for Danny and scared for him, not that he was cleaning up his mess. I think he was scared shitless that Danny would do something stupid and get himself hurt. The look on Flack's face in the alley when Danny stepped in between Rikki and Ollie--and in front of the gun--pretty much said it all to me.

    Even Flack is only human. I think Flack has a bit of a superman complex, especially when it comes to Danny. This is hardly the first time he's dropped everything for Danny--in "On the Job" he rushed to the diner to meet Danny when Danny was an emotional wreck, and in "Comes Around" he met up with Danny to ease his mind about the trial. Even in "Snow Day," he tried to swoop in when Lindsay was already helping Danny out of the van. So there's something a little proprietary there. It wasn't so much that he excluded Lindsay as his worry for Danny kind of too precedence over everything.

    Yeah, that scene has always stuck in my mind. It went beyond disgust--Danny basically challenged the guy to look at him in a sexual way by putting himself physically in front of the guy and saying, "What, am I too old for you?" It wasn't even quite threatening/intimidating... it just seemed a really off thing for him to do, and has always made me wonder if that's the source of his damage. And yeah, they've never really done another case like that. It would be an interesting way to explain Danny's issues.


    Couldn't he have had the lab's number on his cell phone? :confused:

    Maybe. I'm sure it came from worry for Danny, too. But had it been, say, Flack and Stella, or Mac and Lindsay, I think there would have been more warmth there.
     
  8. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Oh, lol, I totally heard Lindsay's offer as being "after" Danny's shift, my mistake :lol: But yeah, I'm still thinking Rikki would've been long gone by lunchtime, if they'd met up. If he'd been worried about her finding out then, I don't see how it could've been different from her (imo) finding out when he walked into work that same day.

    Well....and I know how you feel about offscreen assumptions, but assuming that Danny didn't know about any of Lindsay's attempts to reach him leads me to believe that Danny had to have been the one to cut off all contact first. How else could he not know? I mean, we know Lindsay sent Flack after him - because she was worried, and if we're not making offscreen assumptions, we have to therefore assume she didn't get so much as a return call from Flack letting her know what was going on, or if Danny was okay. I can't quite see her being okay with that, given how worried she was. At the very least, I think she would've called Danny (or Flack). If it was Danny, and he still doesn't know of her involvement, then he flat-out couldn't have picked up. If it was Flack, then that means his keeping Lindsay's involvement away from Danny was intentional. (Like I said, I can't see this meshing with his character.)

    If Danny didn't know about her taking his shift, we have to assume again that he just wasn't talking to her, and not by Lindsay's choice. Even if Lindsay didn't know how to approach Danny, I have to think she'd at least want to know why she had to pull a double-shift for him (though I don't think she minded). Danny took her shift just to be nice in Snow Day, but even he knew the reason he was doing it, and so did she - (I'm assuming) Lindsay was tired, he didn't want to wake her up. All Lindsay knew was that Danny just didn't show up to work one day. If they were talking, I think it would've come up. Even if she didn't quite know how to approach him, I think she would've wanted to know what he did on his day off.

    I'm actually half-waiting for this to happen, just because I don't think those two have dealt with anything yet. At the very least, I think the fact that she doesn't seem to trust him as much has to come up.

    True, that definitely was weakness. I really don't know if that came down to Danny being the one person she'd actually let in, so she just wanted to have him any way she could.

    I guess the thing I found about the coping mechanism was how she just kept repeating the same careless actions because of it.

    But he'd been holding her at arm's length for the entire season, that's why I can't see the RND thing being that different. If all he knew about was the morgue, it really seems like he was freezing her out every time she tried to follow up on it. The only way he couldn't have known about her cover-up shift or her sending Flack was if he didn't let that day come up between them. Even in S2, when Lindsay was the one (emotionally) freezing Danny out, she was going directly to him about a concerning problem of his (the DNA results). If she didn't get the chance to this time, I'm not sure it's her fault.

    Which kind of gives credence to Lindsay's anger about him seeing her as a shallow girlfriend. If he honestly believed she was peeved about her birthday one day, and then the next day just wanted to meet up, buy lunch and then chat about nothing/chew him out for her birthday, then yeah, I think he had to have seen her as shallow. It's entirely possible that this was his reason for not going, that he didn't want to pretend. But he heard her offer to buy him lunch, and at that point just knew that she was angry about her birthday. At the very least, I think that would've sent up signals about a peace offering. At most, I really think he was suspicious of her motives (at least suspecting that she wanted to talk), and that's why he turned her down.

    I don't know about Mac and Lindsay, but I don't think I agree about Flack and Stella. They were pretty on edge during Hostage (at least, more tense/less warm than their interactions usually are), and that was just Mac in danger. We know Flack sees Stella as a sister, but he was pretty tense around her when he thought she was putting Angell in danger. I think tension is really just Flack's MO when things get really tough.

    I am coming back to finish this later!
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
  9. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    Danny's pestering me again so I'm trying to work through the thing with Rikki.

    This whole arc frustrates me because of the timeline in relation to Danny’s emotions and events with Lindsay and Rikki. So I went out on Youtube (S3 and S4 ordered but not received yet) and looked at clips of D/L during the Ruben arc. I know they are only clips, and that takes it out of context to an extent, but it does give pretty good coverage of their scenes together. Based on my thought process (which could be totally off) here’s how I think it would have worked better and made more sense, based on what I think about how the characters would react in this situation, especially Danny. The numbers are the original episode order, the rearranged order is mine.


    5. DOA For a Day Danny forgets Lindsay's birthday and she's pissed
    4. Playing With Matches Danny and Lindsay seem okay, he's subdued but seems to enjoy the banter about steel balls. They are friendly but not romantic
    1. Child's Play Ruben dies and Danny freaks
    2. Happily Never After Danny seems lost in grief-no clips of Lindsay and him
    3. All In the Family Rikki steals Danny's gun - Lindsay sends Flack after Danny
    6. Right Next Door Danny and Rikki have sex and Lindsay blows up at Danny

    Okay, dealing strictly with the emotional side of things, does this make more or less sense when thinking about the characters and emotions involved?

    I'd love to know if anyone else thinks it could have been presented differently.

    ETA: I think I need to try again with my comments about Flack because I didn't explain myself well. In both On the Job and All in the Family Flack is completely there for Danny as a friend. But in both instances Danny's rash actions/decisions endanger his job as a cop/CSI. Don starts out AITF with a friendly joke but goes ballastic when he finds out Danny's gun has been stolen and from that point it's all about saving Danny's job. Danny's emotional wellbeing seems to move to the background. I think he would have shot Rikki if she tried to pull the trigger because he's that devoted to Danny as a friend, but he didn't get back to the friend part until after Rikki came in to the precinct and Danny had done the right thing. I think you're right. Don Flack is the ultimate cop, hero, superman when it comes to commitment to his profession and what it means to him as an individual. He appreciates and honors others that have that same commitment, like Danny and Mac, and would do anything in his power to keep them on the force. That's not to say that he isn't there for them as friends. Just that he takes the cop part very seriously.

    And yes, if she had a direct line that he could have dialed he could have called that. With my history in the wireless industry I just assumed that he would call her cell as everyone in the lab has one.;) They are away from desks so much that it would have been more direct to dial her cell.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
  10. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    It's possible he already started to freeze her out by "All in the Family." Didn't she tell Flack she'd been calling him? Presumably he was ignoring everyone's calls in his desperation to find Rikki and his gun. I guess (venturing into the off-screen assumptions) it's possible they talked after it was all over and she mentioned covering his shift. Although knowing Lindsay and how abrasive she can be (even when maybe she doesn't mean to be), the way she said it (possibly it came out accusatory) and that put him off. I see where you're coming from--that it's pretty unlikely that he never found out she covered his shift--but the problem I have with off-screen assumptions is that there are myriad ways he could have found out, and myriad ways that he could have reacted, depending on how it was presented to him. We just don't know, and given that it was never referred to again, it's hard to factor it in.

    Maybe, maybe not. We really just have no way of knowing. It's equally possible that once he calmed down, he was waiting for her to try again and she never did.

    It's possible afterwards that she didn't really know how to bring it up. If he didn't, maybe she didn't either. Communication between these two has never been good.

    Well, to be fair to Danny, Lindsay really did come off as a shallow girlfriend when she was chewing him out about missing her birthday. If it hadn't been for Ruben's death a few episodes ago, it would have been a legitimate complaint, but her bringing it up and making an issue of it when the guy is grappling with such a huge, terrible thing does make her look shallow. So I can see why he wouldn't want to go to lunch and get trapped into talking about their relationship, her issues with him, etc. Keep in mind, his experience with Lindsay has been that she's been pretty self-centered. I don't think it's so off for him not to want to go to lunch to talk about petty stuff when he's dealing with something much more pressing... something she's shown him virtually no support on.

    I've only seen "Hostage" once (and it kind of bored me :eek: ) so I don't really remember Flack and Stella's interactions that well. Flack definitely goes into a deep focus mode when things get tough--he was the same way in "Snow Day." I think the scene between Flack and Stella in the Greek episode wasn't exactly tense--he was concerned and he was leveling with Stella, friend to friend. For Flack to tell her that he cares about Angell was a big deal for him. I didn't get tension so much as concern.

    The situation in "All in the Family" wasn't quite as tense as "Snow Day" or "Hostage," unless they really believed Danny might have been abducted, which I don't think they did, although I guess that could have been the reason why Flack seemed to exhibit a kind of pissed off relief when he found him. :lol: The scenes between them still felt like them coming together for Danny's sake to me, and that was it.
     
  11. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    The problem I have with that timeline is that it would make Danny forgetting Lindsay's birthday seem like a stereotypical bad/thoughtless boyfriend forgetting his girlfriend's birthday. In my mind, that's absolutely not what it was--it was Ruben's death that sparked Danny's drastic pulling away from Lindsay. Danny has been presented as anything but thoughtless, and I think the forgetting of the birthday had mostly to do with the fact that he just had much, much bigger things on his mind.

    As for them being friendly but not romantic, I think that kind of yo-yoed during the season anyway. Mostly we saw her making overtures--the condom spray, the concern in "The Deep," the slingshot flirting--and him responding kind of shyly or brushing her off. For that, putting aside the Ruben stuff... given that Danny isn't a stereotypical guy, it's possible that he didn't want it being broadcast to everyone that he was sleeping with a co-worker. Tying everything back in to Mac, it's possible he thought Mac would disapprove or maybe that people would judge him/think he wasn't good enough for Lindsay. Again, this is Danny...his self-esteem is pretty low and he's definitely worried about what people think of him.

    I really think later in the season, after Ruben's death, everything came back to that for Danny. He just shut down, and in his perception his girlfriend made one half-hearted attempt to reach out to him that she never followed up. Even if he did know about the shift covering, if she didn't talk to him about it in the context of what was going on big-picture-wise (ie, Ruben's death), then maybe it still didn't full register with him.

    Another thought on Flack--maybe Flack didn't tell Lindsay about Danny's gun being stolen because he didn't want Danny to get in trouble with her over what happened. Maybe he thought they should sort things out themselves, so he didn't mention to her what happened with the gun and didn't tell Danny about her involvement, figuring they'd sort through things themselves later. Maybe Flack doesn't realize what big communication issues they have.
     
  12. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    Yes, I can see that. But when they are talking about it, his comment of "I'm never going to live this one down am I", doesn't speak to him pulling away at that time. It says to me that he is still committed (somewhat) to her and it fits better with him saying that as a boyfriend/lover moreso than as a friend or colleague. In that episode and PWM, they don't seem to be ignoring an elephant in the room, which would be his involvement with Rikki. As emotional as he is during that arc, would he be able to pull off concealing an affair? I don't know...he seemed pretty guilty when he showed up at the lab in RND, but I could be projected because we saw what he was doing:eek: before he got there.

    These two have always been able to turn it on and off like a faucet. Even when Lindsay was nickel-spitting mad at him, they still acted like things were normal most of the time, joking and working like nothing happened.

    I agree that he did shut down when Ruben died. I really like the progression if you put CP, HNA, AITF and RND in quick succession because it shows him grieving, going after Rikki, seeing how lost she is, and then trying to substitute himself for her pain since he can't give Ruben back to her. That is so much more powerful for his character than having to deal with a forgotten birthday in the middle of it. The fact that he goes back to the birthday when Lindsay confronts him would have been a great indicator of exactly how much Ruben's death affected Danny and how much time he lost in his grief. It would also explain how he could sleep with Rikki and still talk with Lindsay on the phone like she and Rikki existed in different realms.

    I made a few more comments about Flack in my edit above. I love the character of Flack and didn't mean to make him sound heartless because I don't think he is. I think he gets tired sometimes of trying to keep Danny somewhat balanced. As for his interaction with Lindsay, I'm sure he's cautious about anyone that Danny gets involved with. When you have a close friend you always want the perfect person for them. It's okay that he may not have thought Lindsay was the perfect person for Danny. I think he has enough emotionally wrecked people in his life that he can recognize one and probably did in her. He seemed to pull away when Lindsay got pregnant, and I wonder what he was thinking about that situation. Sometimes, as Bambi and Thumper said, If you can't say anything nice, it's better to say nothing at all.:devil:
     
  13. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    I missed the edit! :eek:

    He does, but if he put being a cop over Danny's emotional well-being, he would have just called the gun theft in. Danny would have had a meltdown, but job and procedure-wise, that would have been the smartest thing to do and also the thing that would have been most guaranteed to protect Danny's job. So I don't think he was all by the book by any means--indeed, Flack risked a lot to help Danny, and I think it's evidence of the depth of his feelings for Danny. It was a nice arc for him because it showed that there are certain situations--and maybe one certain person--where he's able to put something/someone above the job.

    I suspect it was just for expediency's sake that it was shown that way (how likely is it that we'd see Flack going through his address book on his cell?) but I imagine he knows all of the CSI's numbers. He works with them enough. It's more telling that he had Danny on speed dial. :lol:

    I think it was more that he was responding to her goading. If I remember correctly, it sounded like that scene we saw between them wasn't the first time it had come up, so it seemed more like he'd been catching hell for it and was just responding to that.

    Yeah, but that guilt could be because he turned down her lunch offer and knew she'd be upset with him. Remember, Danny is really sensitive when it comes to other people and how they treat him, and he seemed fine until she shoved the file into his hands in front of Hawkes and stormed off.

    And I think that's exactly it--Danny compartmentalized what he was doing with Rikki and what he was doing with Lindsay. The sex with Rikki wasn't about sex for him--it was literally about using his body to make her feel better. I think he did the same with Lindsay at the end of "Personal Foul." It's this weird issue he seems to have.

    Agreed, definitely. I think he also knows how fragile Danny is and sees Lindsay as someone who has and is capable of hurting him. I don't think he wants to see Danny get hurt, and I think he also knows he'll be the one cleaning up the mess if Danny does get hurt, so that prospect can't be fun.
     
  14. JellyBelly

    JellyBelly Lab Technician

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    It's been a while since I participated in this conversation so thought I'd rejoin the party!:)

    I've never really seen Flack not telling Danny that Lindsay was concerned as being terribly significant. I certainly don't think Lindsay should have used Flack as a go between in order to relay that message to Danny. Not that I'm saying she did that, but I do think by that time she had probably lost all ability to communicate directly with Danny on a personal level. Thinking about the whole Flack thing, I wonder if he just didn't want to get involved in anything other than supporting Danny. It's likely that Flack knew things were not great between him and Lindsay and it's also likely that he saw that as something they needed to sort out between them. Even relaying Lindsay's concern may have felt too involved for his liking. I also wonder if Flack saw how close Danny was getting to Rikki while trying to support her and could envisage the train wreck that was coming and wanted to keep his distance from that!

    As for the whole timeline thing it's hard to say for certain that Danny and Lindsay were okay during any of the Ruben story arc. I really don't believe that the time in the morgue was the only time Lindsay reached out to him. The fact she turned to Mac for advice on what to say to Danny (bad move imo), then moved to leave in the direction that Danny went was a pretty strong indicator that she certainly intended to talk to him. It's very likely that if she did take Mac's advice and tell him that she wasn't very good at 'this sort of thing' then Danny may well have seen that as a brush off, particularly if that was her only attempt. I struggle to believe that Lindsay wouldn't have at least attempted to talk to Danny again, if she didn't there's little point to her conversation with Mac and her asking what to say to him.

    But, I do think that any attempt on her part was minimal and likely to be clumsy e.g. 'I'm not very good at this sort of thing' which Danny may have interpreted as 'I'm not the best person to be there for you so get back to me when you've sorted it out'.

    As for the whole timeline, while there was a little banter between them in PWM it seemed very strained to me, as though they were reverting to their usual play out of habit rather than them being okay with each other. I certainly think that was the case in LWFM until Lindsay suddenly realised what was happening and it caused her pain knowing what they'd lost.

    I honestly think Lindsay backed off from him because she genuinely believed he needed his space to deal with things. It seemed as though she really didn't know how to handle him which isn't a surprise as he's so unlike her with emotional fallout. While she clams up he bleeds all over the place. At the time I wondered if she had been so closed off that she just didn't know him that well, but now I think she did know him and that's what probably scared her - she knew she couldn't really deal with his raw emotion. She'd only seen it from a distance before e.g. RSRD and since then he'd been the strong one for her.

    As for her birthday. It's pretty obvious that Danny forgot because of everything else that had been going on. It also supports the theory that they weren't spending much time together at that point. As for Lindsay being pissed that he forgot I always saw that as being so much bigger than a forgotten birthday. I suspect that Lindsay had seen it as a sign that his distance from her had grown from 'needing space' in her mind to suddenly being so far away that she had the first indicator that he may not return. I also think that's where the lunch invitation in RND was the final straw for her, where she felt she was putting herself on the line and he'd rejected her again.

    I appreciate that tptb have indicated that they weren't an actual couple during the Ruben arc but that's never really been explained well enough for me not to see Danny's actions as a sort of betrayal. That's not to say I blame him for it because I don't. I understand that he was seeking and giving comfort and he'd not received any comfort from Lindsay. I just can't bring myself to blame Lindsay for that either. I really do see them as screwed up and damaged as each other, albeit in very different ways.

    There's no doubt that their problems have been glossed over to bring family Messer to the fore in S5. That's probably the most frustrating thing of the season. But, I guess it does give tptb a lot of fodder to draw another wedge between them further down the line. I'm really hoping not, as I'd like to see them learning to communicate with each other better. One of the good things of S5 was that Lindsay seemed to be more understanding and accepting of Danny and his beliefs/faults. What I'd like to see now is a little more exploration into Lindsay's faults and Danny calling her out on them. We'll see. :)
     
  15. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Yeah, I remember her telling Flack that same thing about calling him, and he didn't pick up. It's true that offscreen assumptions are really tricky (it's impossible to therefore tell what really went on). But I don't know, I always assumed Danny knew about the covered shift because that was the only way I could explain his renewed friendliness with her in Playing With Matches (especially when coupled with her initial sullenness in that same episode).

    Very true - but even Danny demanded to know why she "needed" him to take the mother in Oedipus Hex, and like you said, he tends to be a doormat when it comes to Lindsay's random whims. I can believe Lindsay would've found it hard to bring up, but I still have to believe she at least asked why she had to do a double-shift for him

    Well okay, but I thought that scene made it clear how Lindsay's irritation/anger was not about her birthday at all (the sad way she looked at him after he left?). I know she brought it up, but that whole birthday exchange really sounded like Lindsay was at least as unsurprised as I was about Danny missing her birthday. He was grieving, but I can't really see him remembering her birthday even if Ruben was still alive.

    I do, however, think (agree, I guess) that Danny thought she was just mad about her birthday, and it honestly didn't occur to him that she might be mad about anything else - he basically said so in RND. Which, yeah, might explain why he skipped lunch. It's much of what drew me to the conclusion that he didn't take Lindsay seriously once she became his girlfriend, because he might have his reasons for thinking Lindsay was self-centered, but I really think he gave her more credit back in seasons 2 and 3.

    I saw concern, yeah, but I definitely saw tension too - it wasn't just the scene in the police station; if it had just been that, then I would've seen it as levelling, but he also seemed kind of hostile to Stella when he and Danny found her coming out of the Professor's house, which is why I drew the conclusion that he was still irritated over the Angell thing.
     

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