Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[meggzie]

I don't think I could decide who was the most damaged because Danny's insecurities are so obvious most of the time even if it does he does get kind of annoying and whiney. At least you know what is bothering him.

Whereas lindsay is normally not so open about it.Which is ok for some people but it is clear she cannot cope with bottling it up. And also Lindsays personalities and her emotions always seem to be off, like in silent night she ran away over a crime scene but got peed off in manhattan manhunt ' was angry that she couldnt go to one, in fairness her 'big secret' probably wasn't written yet.But also other things can't really think of examples at the moment that just seem off with her.

And another thing that really annoys me (not very relevant but thought i'd mention it i'm all fired up lol) is she ALWAYS walks away. In LWFM when danny was talking she walked away, when he tried to tell her his feelings in... cannot remember the name of the episode and she brushed him off and walked away, in silent night at the crime scene and with stella she walked away, in the box after she told danny she was pregnant ... well you get my point. It is really annoying.

anyway i'm babbling on and am probably talking a load of rubbish lol

 

[Top41]

So much fascinating stuff here! That's what I get for going away for almost 24 hours. I'll drop a few thoughts in, probably not as in depth as I'd like to be, though!

So what I'm sensing from all of this is that Lindsay has control issues. Huge ones! It totally explains why she became a CSI, putting her in control of the fate of the bad guys, which is what she didn't feel when she was 14 and her friends got killed.

It's fair to say that she controlled the speed of the relationship with Danny, from the edited out kiss from COTP to backing away from Danny when her past came back up, bedding him in Snow Day, pulling herself out of the equation totally after Ruben died, hanging up on him at the end of Personal Foul instead of agreeing to go to his place, keeping her pregnancy a secret until he cornered her, and turning him down the first time he proposed marriage. Hmmm.

Totally agree. I do think Lindsay likes to be in control and likes to calling the shots. That's one of the reasons I was a little disappointed she didn't come back and propose to Danny after he'd proposed to her--I think that would have been cool and would have been a little more fun/less passive than her being dragged to the courthouse. It would have given me more confidence in them as a couple, and seemed less like an act of desperation on Danny's part and weakness on hers, capitulating just because she wanted him and not because she thought it was the best thing.

If that is the case, why on earth did she allow herself to get involved with the bundle of raw emotion that is Danny Messer. Was it the allure of someone that was so candidly open with his feelings, so totally opposite from her? Was it that he just wouldn't leave her alone and she caved?

I think it was an opposites attract thing. Danny is fascinating--I think Lindsay and Flack and even Mac are drawn to him because he so different from them, so openly passionate and emotional. He fascinates them.

I think it was his savior complex that got her in the end.

I don't think Danny has a savior complex though...more often than not, he's the one being saved. I think he needs to be needed, which isn't quite the same as a savior complex. Flack has something of a savior complex, with the way he's constantly charging in to save Danny. With Danny I think it was more to feel like he was needed, that someone he had become attached to needed him, too.

I thought it was odd that Danny seemed to lose steam once she let him inside and she seemed happy, but then again once saved equals not in need of saving any more equals doesn't need me so I have nothing else to offer. Hmmm. Sounds like Danny Messer to me. He is his own solution to everyone's problem. If it didn't make him feel so needed, it would be arrogant. But it doesn't come across that way at all. It just makes him seem self-sacrificing or martyrish or something. Not sure what the word is yet. I want to say pitiful but not sure that's it either.

Yeah...the fear that she wouldn't need him anymore, or that she'd realize he wasn't good for anything but sex. Something like that. I think if he'd just gotten tired of or bored with her, her speech to him in "Right Next Door" wouldn't have made a difference.

Yeah... but he wants the whole package for all the wrong reasons. I mean, he wants it for Lucy, but a child is not a good enough reason to get married. I think it wouldn't bother me as much if he'd waited to want the whole package until he and Lindsay had at least talked out their issues, or even addressed them. Worked out the reasons they possibly should be together and the (many) reasons they shouldn't. But I'm starting to think that sort of self-awareness between the two of them is only going to be reached in a bizarro-universe, so I'm just groaning here.

I don't think either of them is very self-aware, no!

I don't buy for a second that Lindsay's overcome since season three. I think she thinks she's overcome by becoming hard and isolated (which she seemed to largely be in seasons 2 and 3 also). I think in early season 4, she might've even viewed it as a personal victory, a sign that she'd overcome, because she had an emotional tie with at least one person now. But I see her as just as vulnerable and tragic as Danny, even if she doesn't visibly ooze it the way Danny does. She has not one truly healthy, meaningful relationship. She doesn't seem to have even the first idea of how to form one. I'm desperately hoping we'll see something with the Lucy storyline in S6. Given the way she is now with emotions and relationships, I think every one of her fears of motherhood could easily, almost inevitably come true, because I'm not sure if even her child would be able to get through that wall. But she seems so badly to want to stop all that from happening, so I'm hoping it'll make her try anything. Force her to make that extra effort to reach out, even if she has to go to therapy to make it.

I guess maybe overcome isn't the right term. It's hard because her past is almost never alluded to, and Belknap really doesn't give the kind of layered performance that reminds us that it's still an issue for her, or that certain things remind her of it. If it's in the script, like it was in season three, she does, but otherwise, there's just not a lot of it still there. I do agree that she's still pretty isolated from people though. I don't think the show will go on long enough for us to see Lucy get to the age where she'd hate Lindsay, but I could definitely see that if Lindsay doesn't find a way to connect with her on an emotional level. I did think it was interesting in "Grounds for Deception" that Danny was the one fussing over Lucy. Lindsay left her with co-workers; Danny carried her around on his chest. I think he's likely already bonded with her more than Lindsay has.

I totally agree. It seems like the only thing Lindsay is ever able to do emotionally is show that she cares from afar. I don't think she had the first clue how to overcome her discomfort with the emotions, because honestly, it's a lot more ingrained than her just "not being good at it".

I agree, but again, if she chooses to be with someone like Danny, who needs that kind of emotional support, she's going to have to learn to give it, in the same way he needs to learn to give her her space, which I think he sort of has done, at least in letting her go to Montana without him, something he clearly wasn't comfortable with. His urgency to get married negated that a bit, though.

And that, inherently, is why I see Danny as just being in a healthier place, at least when it comes to people. Danny seems able to reach out with ease. I'm still iffy on how good he is with other people's emotional problems, but he seems to show them that he cares with ease. It's not that easy for a lot of other people, and I definitely don't think it's nearly as easy for Lindsay.

I don't think he is healthier, though. He needs people in the same way she needs her isolation and her walls.

Might have to look into that one. I think in general, I just like Flack pairings. Stella, Lindsay...Flack/Angell was actually the only pairing I couldn't stand, but I think that had more to do with my Angell-issues than it did with their onscreen interactions.

Flack is just such a great, centered, grounded, heroic guy that it's fun to imagine him in a relationship with just about anyone. I liked the pairing with Angell, because I thought it was healthy and fun and sexy. But I do think Flack's totally smitten with Danny.

Lol, actually the whole "Lots of greenhouses in New York, Linds" - "Well, that's true, Flack" is one of my favourite exchanges of theirs - she definitely sounded at least as snarky with him as he did with her, but they were both kind of smiling when they said these things, so I couldn't really see any mean undercurrents in it. I've never really noticed the not-looking-at-her thing, but I dunno...it just seems to me like they wouldn't have moments like the Laughing Larry one (the "you are so uncool" look they gave Stella, then each other was hilarious), or the phone-numbers thing in episode one of S3, if they actually saw each other as rivals. I could totally buy them seeing each other as friendly rivals, but Flack puts up with a ridiculous amount from Lindsay that I can't see him putting up with if he didn't like her at all. I mean, no one lays into suspects like he does, and we've seen him get harsh with Mac and even Stella before.

The Laughing Larry thing was a moment of bonding, which was kind of fun and new for them. I don't think Flack really puts up with a lot from her--there was an edge to his voice when he said "I don't like where you're going with this, Monroe" about the phone numbers. If he puts up with her, I think it's for Danny's sake, not hers.

I'm sorry, I know I'm cutting corners here, but I'll definitely come back later

No worries! I don't think you are--there's just so much good stuff to reply to here!

Lots of good stuff above guys. The more I think about Lindsay the more I realize that she really is two people. Outside the wall she is professional and well educated and current age and a control freak, but she keeps a scared little girl inside the castle walls and it affects her relationships with just about everyone.

Interesting observation, and I definitely think you've got a point.

I've read on here before that Mac coddles her and treats her differently than he does everyone else and doesn't call her on her bad behavior and it's true, he deals with her differently. That's odd for him, being military where no one gets a break, but he knew her background when she came in the door, acknowledging that she was the only survivor in S3 right before she left for Montana. I think he knew her problems weren't going to go away overnight and was willing to work with that, maybe because of the walls he put up around himself after Claire's death. I don't want to sound too sappy, but whereas Danny needed that firm hand and the shock of Mac's discipline to establish boundries for his behavior, Lindsay really did need the nurturing that he allowed her. You know how you coax a scared animal (or child) into trusting you? You stand really still and let them come to you. That's what I saw Mac do with Lindsay. He allowed her to put stuff on his lip and tie his tie and all that stuff as a way to allow her to let down the wall. In return he gained her trust and affection so when he did come down on her about leaving the evidence out he didn't get the 14 year old like Stella did. Now, I know that is just one instance, but does it make sense? To not have any children of his own, he really seems to get that you can't always use the same discipline tactics with all your kids. What works with one, doesn't always work with another.

I disagree. Coddling people isn't a good thing, especially when they've got issues like Lindsay's. Lindsay is an adult--she's not a scared 14-year-old girl and she doesn't need to be treated like one. For Mac to coddle her doesn't really do her any favors in the long run. It just allows her to get away with behaviors that aren't really acceptable. He was way too easy on her when she left out evidence. The experiments are one thing, but the evidence was not a good thing and she didn't even get a slap on the wrist or a lecture for it.

By the way I loved the tender look on Mac's face when she tied the tie on him in People with Money. I wonder if he was remembering Claire tying his ties for him because that is something I can see happening.

Stuff like that is where I saw a romantic chemistry between the two.

With Stella being a woman supervisor over her you get the mom thing going and Lindsay doesn't deal with moms very well anyway, let alone having a scared angry teenager living inside you. The "leave me alone" remark was totally the teenager coming out, which would be normal behavior when the walls are breached by what she was dealing with that day. The Montana case had ripped the wall down and she was exposed. I'm not condoning it, just understanding why she lashed out in that manner. Once she "went to her room and slammed the door" and had time to put the wall back in place she came out and was able to approach Stella in control of herself and the situation.

Agreed--it took her back and I can see how that would elicit a childish response. It still made me cringe because of the complete unprofessional aspect of it, but what you say does make it make more sense. I'm glad Stella didn't coddle her though.

Danny got through the walls because he's the 14 year old's dream guy. What 14 year old girl wouldn't want someone as charming and cute as Danny teasing her and pulling her hair and playing pranks on her. The problem was that he didn't know he was dealing with a 14 year old until it was too late. That combined with his savior complex was sort of a double punch to the relationship. I'm thinking he had a :wtf: moment there when he realized he saved a 14 year old.:lol: The hero worship he got after the diving incident totally sounded to me like the 14 year old talking. Her comment about her dream in Snow Day has always bugged me as well, and now I know why. It sounds like something a teenager would say. I always cringed when I saw that scene because her comment was so juvenile. But if the child inside is 14 and just got the cute boy, then it totally makes sense, to me anyway. I think that her control issues come out the most with Danny because he is where she is most vulnerable, not because she sees him as weak. When she controls the relationship then her emotional side is safe. When she looses control of the relationship, as in when Danny is going through the Ruben arc and pulls away from her then her emotions are exposed and she reacts like the 14 year old would. Not being mature in this area, of course his forgetting her birthday is the most important thing on her mind. He really should have called her on that much like Flack called Jess on her worrying about people knowing they were dating. I think if he had, she would have straightened up and put things back in perspective.

Really good points, and that makes me rethink her comments in those scenes.

Her treatment of Adam can also be seen as accurate, for someone who feels like they have gained control over their issues, albeit walling them off doesn't sound like a healthy way of dealing with things but at least it allows her to function on a daily basis. Adam, on the other hand, has damage as well, and the fact that he seems vulnerable all the time makes her see him as a victim, not a survivor like herself, hence she doesn't respect him. Damage recognizes damage.

Again, great point...though that really does make her seem pretty cruel!

She seems to live her life by compartmentalizing everything, fitting her job and her emotions and the people around her into safe mental boxes that she can keep at a distance, while still interacting with them in a way that makes them (and a lot of other people) think that she's completely normal, by social standards. Supervisor who hired me, supervisor who was friendly to me on the first day, cute guy at work who shares my office, cute-guy's best friend who I really have to try with. [I've always found it very telling that it was Danny - the guy who she literally had no choice but to see every day without even trying, because he shared her office - that she chose to start a casual flirtation with, because in general most people don't do this. Not on the CSI shows (at least, until this year), and not in real life. Most people don't start casual flings with coworkers, but I think Danny was the easy option, so she went with it. I don't think she'd have the first clue (let alone the ability) to start up a personal conversation and then a fling with a guy she met in a bar or something - a guy she'd have to work to see.]

Another interesting observation. And yeah, I totally don't see Lindsay picking someone up in a bar. I think it's interesting that while we've seen Danny with other women, we've never seen Lindsay even express so much as a passing interest in another guy (or had anyone else interested in her).

However, concerning her behavior during the Ruben arc, I am in total disagreement with Top on her not reaching out to Danny. She talked with Mac, took his advise, and sent out in the same direction Danny took, leading me to believe she went after him and at least tried to reach him. I don't think he was in a place to accept consolation from anyone and when she tried he probably shut her out. In turn, she felt rejected and lashed out about the birthday in true juvenile style. I don't agree with her behavior but I can see how it came about.

See, I just can't make assumptions about things we don't see happen on screen or don't hear a reference to. The fact that we never got a single throwaway line about her trying to reach out to him tells me she didn't. In the same vein, because we never saw Danny reach out to Flack in 513 (the ep where Flack was suspected of killing the suspect), I don't assume that he did (and I think that reflects pretty badly on Danny, given all Flack has done for him).

I actually liked the fight in RND because she finally dealt on an adult level. Her speech to him was adult in content and tone.

It's not adult to not give the other person a chance to respond or to speak. She stormed off before he could say anything, and when he did try to say stuff to her later, she brushed him off and avoided him.

But remember, she had time to write that speech because I think she got mad when he brushed off her offer of lunch. That was the third time she had reached out to him, if you count her and Flack working on finding him after Rikki stole his gun.

It was the first time that Danny knew about though. I still don't think we can assume she found him in "Child's Play" and Flack never told her that Danny sent him in "All in the Family." She helped in that, but from behind the scenes.

And she really did take responsibility for allowing her feelings to run away with her. Or at least that's how I took her saying that she wasn't mad at him, but rather at herself for allowing herself to fall in love with him. The emphasis wasn't on him, it was on her.

Yeah, but in such a way designed to make him feel like complete and utter shit when he already felt like complete and utter shit. "I'm mad at myself for falling for you" says to Danny he's not worth loving/someone not worthy of love. That's designed to twist the knife. It was cruel, even if she didn't intend it to be so.

She was kicking herself for letting her guard down. Probably something she promised herself she would not do again, allow herself to get close enough to people to be hurt when they go away. In a way, she and Danny are very similar. Neither can stand people leaving them. They just handle it differently. He sacrifices himself in order to remain together and she distances herself so that they can't get close to begin with.

Totally agree with this--they definitely have that in common, even if they deal with it completely differently.

 

[Maya316]

I think she is equipped with a coping mechanism tool in order to control it but doesn't have the tools to know how to work through it and grow. Her remoteness and aloofness is the coping tool.

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement - she literally seems to need the aloofness to interact with people, or to deal with things emotionally. But it's not a healthy tool, not in the least. That's more what I was getting at about her not being equipped - she has a tool, but it's not at all effective in terms of emotional health.

However she hasn't learned how to deal with emotions on an adult level. Her emotions are that of a much younger person...hence the 14 year old analgy. It's interesting that it sort of corresponds to when the crime happened. Makes me think she didn't get the therapy she needed back then to help her emotions continue to mature along with the rest of her.

So agree! I think she's been repressing emotions and shutting them away since she was at least 14 - yeah, I definitely think that's when the diner thing happened - and that's why they all seem so immature now when they do slip through. Emotional responses grow and change as people do, but if you never let yourself feel those emotions, I don't think they can grow with you.

And I definitely don't think she got the therapy she needed back then - which basically explains everything about her now. Maybe she didn't let anyone take her to therapy, because obviously a therapist would force her to feel those emotions, and by that point she'd already been shutting them away. She seems to desperately need those walls now, but they really have to be torn down. By more than just one (rather damaged himself) person.

Yeah, but most people don't have the kind of tragedy she was hiding. Remember, she never talked about it specifically, only refering to it almost as part of her job when she told Danny she had seen bloodier scenes than the one in Manhattan Manhunt (?). She was hiding a whopping part of her past, which reinforces my thought that she just wanted to outrun it by moving to NY and creating an entire new life for herself. In order to maintain that, she had to keep people outside the walls.

Very true. I'd never really thought about why Lindsay moved to New York (aside from, you know, the writers needing to drag her there so she'd be available for Danny), but this makes a lot of sense. I don't know how old she was supposed to be in S2, but a lot of things in that season made me think she hadn't been a CSI for long. It makes sense that as soon as she got her degree and had a firm-enough foothold in a career to be able to survive elsewhere, she'd run from the one place she had emotional ties to.

Not sure what you mean about it being up to Lindsay with the texting. I thought that was just poor writing and an attempt to appeal to the masses of folks who text.

I've seen the arguments about that text message being down to bad writing, but I have to admit that's always baffled me a little. I literally could not imagine a more in-character way for Lindsay to have told Danny about the sex of the baby, at least not in that episode. I don't think the text message was 'up to her', per se. I think that Danny knew she was going to the doctor's office that day, and had demanded to know the sex as soon as she found out. Hence the text - he could find out, while she could mentally compartmentalize without actually having to deal with him just yet. I think if it had been up to her, she would've called him to actually talk - but only after a few days, when she'd had time to process the news. She really seems to need those walls.

Her opening up to Stella in Greater Good was at least an attempt to work through emotions by talking about them instead of walling herself off from people. It's interesting that it came after jumping all over Adam, which was her emotions misbehaving when the scene didn't play out like she imagined it would. She was rattled, and once agian, her unruly emotions struck out at someone.

Yes, and I'm so in agreement about the Adam thing. I have noticed the times we see Lindsay lose it (as much as Lindsay can lose it, anyway) are also the times when things seem to be spinning out of her control. Plans are not falling safely into place the way she'd expected, or people are sliding out of their mental labelled compartments (read, Danny).

The Stella conversation actually gave me a lot of hope, as awkward as it was - Lindsay barely seemed to believe herself that she was actually telling Stella all this. Heck, Stella barely seemed to believe that Lindsay was actually spilling to her - hence the awkwardness of the scene, I don't think either knew how to approach each other. But the fact that Lindsay tried at all, and that she basically expressed a fear of not being able to try with her daughter...that gave me hope.

I don't think I could decide who was the most damaged because Danny's insecurities are so obvious most of the time even if it does he does get kind of annoying and whiney. At least you know what is bothering him.

Whereas lindsay is normally not so open about it.Which is ok for some people but it is clear she cannot cope with bottling it up. And also Lindsays personalities and her emotions always seem to be off, like in silent night she ran away over a crime scene but got peed off in manhattan manhunt ' was angry that she couldnt go to one, in fairness her 'big secret' probably wasn't written yet.But also other things can't really think of examples at the moment that just seem off with her.

And another thing that really annoys me (not very relevant but thought i'd mention it i'm all fired up lol) is she ALWAYS walks away. In LWFM when danny was talking she walked away, when he tried to tell her his feelings in... cannot remember the name of the episode and she brushed him off and walked away, in silent night at the crime scene and with stella she walked away, in the box after she told danny she was pregnant ... well you get my point. It is really annoying.

anyway i'm babbling on and am probably talking a load of rubbish lol

Lol, no, this makes perfect sense! Yeah, it's actually very hard to tell who is the more damaged one, Lindsay or Danny, because Danny - well, his pain oozes. With him, there's very clearly something wrong, but the thing is that people know there's something wrong, because he lets it show. He doesn't talk about it, maybe, but even silently he lets people know the pain is there. He's like glass, completely transparent. Whereas Lindsay, I think her emotions always seem to be off because she's opaque, and it's almost impossible to tell where she's coming from. She seems to think she's fine, for the most part, and puts all her effort into convincing everyone around her of the same. That way, things really will be fine. When her emotions seem to go off, people ask what's wrong and she fobs them off with a fake "I'm fine, leave me alone" -- and then break down crying in the morgue later.

And I really think that tendency to convince everyone she's fine has everything to do with why she's always running away (LWFM, The Box, Personal Foul, RND, Silent Night, Love Run Cold, even All Access to an extent...lol, this is so a pattern). She always needs to compartmentalize until she's distanced herself enough from the situation emotionally to convince people that she's fine.

Originally Posted by Top41:
I think it was an opposites attract thing. Danny is fascinating--I think Lindsay and Flack and even Mac are drawn to him because he so different from them, so openly passionate and emotional. He fascinates them.

Oh my gosh, yes! It's why I wish desperately that the writers could've just left them as friends, because that whole opposites-attract thing is one of the most fascinating dynamics on the show, and I think they could learn so much from each other if they weren't always messing each other up. I am not the least bit surprised that Danny is the only one to have even come close to getting under Lindsay's shell - emotion-wise, he seems to be the only one on the team capable of breaking through such a tough wall. Stella might be a distant second, but Stella isn't the livewire of emotion that Danny is. I don't think she's as capable of hurling herself at Lindsay's wall repeatedly, no matter how many times she gets bounced off of it, until she breaks through.

I guess maybe overcome isn't the right term. It's hard because her past is almost never alluded to, and Belknap really doesn't give the kind of layered performance that reminds us that it's still an issue for her, or that certain things remind her of it. If it's in the script, like it was in season three, she does, but otherwise, there's just not a lot of it still there. I do agree that she's still pretty isolated from people though. I don't think the show will go on long enough for us to see Lucy get to the age where she'd hate Lindsay, but I could definitely see that if Lindsay doesn't find a way to connect with her on an emotional level. I did think it was interesting in "Grounds for Deception" that Danny was the one fussing over Lucy. Lindsay left her with co-workers; Danny carried her around on his chest. I think he's likely already bonded with her more than Lindsay has.

I agree, but I'd be fine with her past never being alluded to again, because I think she could grow from it without actually having to flash back to it. Or I'm hoping, anyway. And I definitely noticed that about Danny and Lucy, and Lindsay and Lucy. I found it rather significant that Lindsay even came to work at all with Lucy, leaving her safely with coworkers who would care for her while she could hide behind her own safe-wall of work. Not that I think Lindsay doesn't love her as much, but I'm not sure she knows how to show it any more than she did with Danny in S4. I just felt so badly for her during that speech in Greater Good, worrying about things that were very likely to come true (though yeah, I doubt we'll actually see it). But I'm hoping, because like Stella said, the fact that Lindsay was thinking about it at all was probably a good sign. Maybe she will go to therapy.

I agree, but again, if she chooses to be with someone like Danny, who needs that kind of emotional support, she's going to have to learn to give it, in the same way he needs to learn to give her her space, which I think he sort of has done, at least in letting her go to Montana without him, something he clearly wasn't comfortable with. His urgency to get married negated that a bit, though.

It's interesting what you said about space, because I've noticed that about Danny, too. Over the seasons, he's seemed to have learned very carefully how to give Lindsay just enough space so that she can still feel safe-in-a-personal-bubble, while not really giving her space at all. Like you said about the marriage thing, and again with the end of S4. It was annoying, but I did like that there was a gap between Like Water for Murder and Personal Foul before Danny tried again, and then after he pushed at the beginning of PF, he waited until the case was over until he pushed again. (Although I'm not sure whether this was just because the case was obviously more urgent.)

And I do agree about Lindsay needing to learn to go to Danny to give him the support - she needs to learn to do what he did, put himself on the line in an effort to help. Though I don't know whether she will ever be able to put herself out there to that extent, it would be nice if she learned at least a little bit from him. Of course, I think it would be easier to learn if she wasn't in this relationship with him.

I don't think he is healthier, though. He needs people in the same way she needs her isolation and her walls.

True, I think Danny's dependence on people could be at least as dangerous as Lindsay's insistence that she doesn't need people. I guess people-wise, I can't see Danny as unhealthier, though. Because it's not good to depend that much on people, but at least if you do there's always the chance that they're going to want to support you and help you, and go through things with you. Not being able to reach out doesn't even give you that chance.

The Laughing Larry thing was a moment of bonding, which was kind of fun and new for them. I don't think Flack really puts up with a lot from her--there was an edge to his voice when he said "I don't like where you're going with this, Monroe" about the phone numbers. If he puts up with her, I think it's for Danny's sake, not hers.

I don't know, he was kind of smiling when he said "I don't like where you're going with this" - and then she pushed, and he caved, then she (and Stella) laughed. And, well, you mentioned an interview with Eddie Cahill earlier where he said Flack wouldn't have put up with Lindsay's "yes-no" behaviour - I just can't picture the Flack we've seen putting up with any behaviour he found tiresome or irritating, no matter for whose sake it was. Certainly not for that long. I mean, he even told Angell off when she was getting on his case about airing their relationship at work, and in that case Angell had a legitimate complaint (though I think she could've picked a better time to get on his case).

...Nor can I really picture Danny holding it against Flack if he were to say something to Lindsay, honestly. At least, not at that point in S3 (Danny was still in the casual-interest phase, I don't think he'd've cared). I do agree, though, that Flack seems to get huffier when she teases him than he gets with anyone else - but then, not that many people aside from Danny in general (and Stella on occasion) tease him.

There is so much extra good stuff here, I'm sorry to cut out! But will definitely be back later, again

 

[Top41]

And I definitely don't think she got the therapy she needed back then - which basically explains everything about her now. Maybe she didn't let anyone take her to therapy, because obviously a therapist would force her to feel those emotions, and by that point she'd already been shutting them away. She seems to desperately need those walls now, but they really have to be torn down. By more than just one (rather damaged himself) person.

I think she needs to tear them down herself. That's the problem with everyone's permissive behavior towards her--Danny's a doormat, Mac coddles her, Stella is too forgiving. Unless Lindsay understands how damaging her behavior is, both to herself and others, what motivation does she have to change?

I've seen the arguments about that text message being down to bad writing, but I have to admit that's always baffled me a little. I literally could not imagine a more in-character way for Lindsay to have told Danny about the sex of the baby, at least not in that episode. I don't think the text message was 'up to her', per se. I think that Danny knew she was going to the doctor's office that day, and had demanded to know the sex as soon as she found out. Hence the text - he could find out, while she could mentally compartmentalize without actually having to deal with him just yet. I think if it had been up to her, she would've called him to actually talk - but only after a few days, when she'd had time to process the news. She really seems to need those walls.

Which doesn't bode well for their marriage, because Danny is a person who needs his hand held every step of the way, whether it be through his career (by Mac), his personal dramas (Flack), or his relationship (Lindsay). I don't think the text was bad writing--to me it just seemed another glaring example of how these two just do not communicate with each other.

Yes, and I'm so in agreement about the Adam thing. I have noticed the times we see Lindsay lose it (as much as Lindsay can lose it, anyway) are also the times when things seem to be spinning out of her control. Plans are not falling safely into place the way she'd expected, or people are sliding out of their mental labelled compartments (read, Danny).

Good point, but again...she can't control everything, and needs to be told that her rude behavior when she's not in control is unacceptable or else she's never going to be motivated to change.

Lol, no, this makes perfect sense! Yeah, it's actually very hard to tell who is the more damaged one, Lindsay or Danny, because Danny - well, his pain oozes. With him, there's very clearly something wrong, but the thing is that people know there's something wrong, because he lets it show. He doesn't talk about it, maybe, but even silently he lets people know the pain is there. He's like glass, completely transparent. Whereas Lindsay, I think her emotions always seem to be off because she's opaque, and it's almost impossible to tell where she's coming from. She seems to think she's fine, for the most part, and puts all her effort into convincing everyone around her of the same. That way, things really will be fine. When her emotions seem to go off, people ask what's wrong and she fobs them off with a fake "I'm fine, leave me alone" -- and then break down crying in the morgue later.

I guess I see Danny as the one more likely to break. While Lindsay's coping mechanisms might not be the best ones, they've made her tough and able to survive things. I don't think Danny is the same way--push him hard enough and he'll break. I'm surprised Ruben's death didn't destroy him, though I think he kind of came close to things going badly. He certainly made some bad/self-damaging choices, like going after his gun on his own and thinking that sleeping with Rikki would solve anything.

And I really think that tendency to convince everyone she's fine has everything to do with why she's always running away (LWFM, The Box, Personal Foul, RND, Silent Night, Love Run Cold, even All Access to an extent...lol, this is so a pattern). She always needs to compartmentalize until she's distanced herself enough from the situation emotionally to convince people that she's fine.

Or maybe just regroup. Maybe that's how she gets to fine...with the exception of "Silent Night," she does seem to recover by taking off to regroup, which is why I don't see it as all that unhealthy.

Oh my gosh, yes! It's why I wish desperately that the writers could've just left them as friends, because that whole opposites-attract thing is one of the most fascinating dynamics on the show, and I think they could learn so much from each other if they weren't always messing each other up. I am not the least bit surprised that Danny is the only one to have even come close to getting under Lindsay's shell - emotion-wise, he seems to be the only one on the team capable of breaking through such a tough wall. Stella might be a distant second, but Stella isn't the livewire of emotion that Danny is. I don't think she's as capable of hurling herself at Lindsay's wall repeatedly, no matter how many times she gets bounced off of it, until she breaks through.

I don't know if he hurled himself at it so many times as he got through by just being who he is...sweet and emotional. I think part of what got her was stuff that didn't have to do with her directly--how vulnerable he was in RSRD, for example. I think she kind of felt that protective feeling Flack and Mac feel towards him when she brought him that DNA first. It wasn't just his efforts but him...the fact that he's just the opposite of everything she is.

It's interesting what you said about space, because I've noticed that about Danny, too. Over the seasons, he's seemed to have learned very carefully how to give Lindsay just enough space so that she can still feel safe-in-a-personal-bubble, while not really giving her space at all. Like you said about the marriage thing, and again with the end of S4. It was annoying, but I did like that there was a gap between Like Water for Murder and Personal Foul before Danny tried again, and then after he pushed at the beginning of PF, he waited until the case was over until he pushed again. (Although I'm not sure whether this was just because the case was obviously more urgent.)

He's just needy. He was terrified of giving her too much space for fear she'd up and leave him. That's why he was so freaked out about her going to Montana--and why the only way to make that trip okay for him was for them to marry before she left. If that doesn't speak to his massive fears and insecurities, I don't know what does.

And I do agree about Lindsay needing to learn to go to Danny to give him the support - she needs to learn to do what he did, put himself on the line in an effort to help. Though I don't know whether she will ever be able to put herself out there to that extent, it would be nice if she learned at least a little bit from him. Of course, I think it would be easier to learn if she wasn't in this relationship with him.

Maybe, though she's in it now, and if she really and truly loves him and cares about him, she'll find a way. Danny's never going to get less emotional, that's for sure.

I
True, I think Danny's dependence on people could be at least as dangerous as Lindsay's insistence that she doesn't need people. I guess people-wise, I can't see Danny as unhealthier, though. Because it's not good to depend that much on people, but at least if you do there's always the chance that they're going to want to support you and help you, and go through things with you. Not being able to reach out doesn't even give you that chance.

No, but it also teaches you to be a little stronger, something Danny definitely isn't. Lindsay might be isolated, but she knows how to deal with her troubles and knows what she needs to regroup. Danny doesn't. He just acts without thinking--he's rash and impulsive and often gets himself into trouble. If Lindsay is 14 a lot of the time, he's 5--pushing big red buttons that trap him in panic rooms (seriously, who but a child pushes a big red button? :lol: ) and taunting kidnappers until they beat the crap out of him (in "Snow Day") even after the need for a distraction has passed.

I don't know, he was kind of smiling when he said "I don't like where you're going with this" - and then she pushed, and he caved, then she (and Stella) laughed.

He seemed irritated to me, both when he said that and admitted the number. (Though really, what guy wouldn't be proud to get three numbers? :lol: )

And, well, you mentioned an interview with Eddie Cahill earlier where he said Flack wouldn't have put up with Lindsay's "yes-no" behaviour - I just can't picture the Flack we've seen putting up with any behaviour he found tiresome or irritating, no matter for whose sake it was. Certainly not for that long.

Oh, but he puts up with Danny time and time again. From storming out of the diner in "On the Job" to being sulky and evasive in "All in the Family," Danny is constantly difficult for Flack. But Flack never gives up on him, no matter how angry he gets (he was pretty worked up in "All in the Family"!).

I mean, he even told Angell off when she was getting on his case about airing their relationship at work, and in that case Angell had a legitimate complaint (though I think she could've picked a better time to get on his case).

He didn't so much tell her off as tell her it really wasn't the time for the discussion.

...Nor can I really picture Danny holding it against Flack if he were to say something to Lindsay, honestly. At least, not at that point in S3 (Danny was still in the casual-interest phase, I don't think he'd've cared). I do agree, though, that Flack seems to get huffier when she teases him than he gets with anyone else - but then, not that many people aside from Danny in general (and Stella on occasion) tease him.

Huffier and more impatient. I don't think he hates her, but I don't think she's his favorite person either. I can't forget the relish in his voice when he told Danny that he should piss Lindsay off more often in "Personal Foul." :lol:

 

[Maya316]

I think she needs to tear them down herself. That's the problem with everyone's permissive behavior towards her--Danny's a doormat, Mac coddles her, Stella is too forgiving. Unless Lindsay understands how damaging her behavior is, both to herself and others, what motivation does she have to change?

But I don't think it's that simple. Of course she needs to realize that the problem is there, but I don't think someone telling her off would do anything to tear down the walls. I saw Mac do this in LWFM. Maybe he did it more gently than he would with anyone else, but Lindsay still seemed to internalize the message as harshly as if Mac had shouted - have we seen her mess up at work even once since then? Sloppy-work-wise, or even complaining about a task? But of course this has done nothing to change her behaviour, if anything her walls only seem to have gotten thicker since the end of S4.

I think she at least needs to meet people halfway when they're trying to reach her, but Lindsay seems to need to be reached out to as much as Danny. Moreover, like him, it seems almost impossible to convince her that she's cared about. We've seen Mac and Stella show on several occasions that they care about her, but they've never made the ridiculously-persistent effort Danny did, and so she never seems to quite believe them. I think that persistent-effort is more important than people might think; because when Danny made it, Lindsay's walls did go down for him. They went down until Danny's came up full-force - and that's when hers went up again.

Which doesn't bode well for their marriage, because Danny is a person who needs his hand held every step of the way, whether it be through his career (by Mac), his personal dramas (Flack), or his relationship (Lindsay). I don't think the text was bad writing--to me it just seemed another glaring example of how these two just do not communicate with each other.

No, it doesn't bode well for their marriage (reason number 90843098 they shouldn't have gotten married). They don't communicate well, at least not in a good way for a relationship. In a half-way realistic universe, they'd already be divorced.

Good point, but again...she can't control everything, and needs to be told that her rude behavior when she's not in control is unacceptable or else she's never going to be motivated to change.

I think if someone did tell her off for being rude, she probably would be motivated to change - but just change the rude behaviour. I don't think it would actually fix the core problem - I think it would just make her more determined to stay hidden until she could interact with people without being rude. She'd adjust her behaviour so that people go back to thinking she was fine, but the problem would still be there.

I guess I see Danny as the one more likely to break. While Lindsay's coping mechanisms might not be the best ones, they've made her tough and able to survive things. I don't think Danny is the same way--push him hard enough and he'll break. I'm surprised Ruben's death didn't destroy him, though I think he kind of came close to things going badly. He certainly made some bad/self-damaging choices, like going after his gun on his own and thinking that sleeping with Rikki would solve anything.

Yeah, I guess I can see how Danny's coping mechanisms are more self-destructive - Danny always seems determined to just react, whereas Lindsay is almost obssesively committed to not reacting until she's thought things through with a cooler head. But the thing is, I think Lindsay is just as likely to break. I agree with the Ruben thing, but as far as we know, no one close to Lindsay has died since her friends when she was 14 - which is what started this whole problem in the first place. She thinks her coping mechanisms make her a tough survivor, but so far they've barely been tested, and even then have proven to be rather fragile. The trial for that murder (which happened maybe fifteen years ago) is the most traumatic thing we've seen her deal with, and she was practically on the verge of collapse with just that. If she'd had a boss less sympathetic than Stella, she could've lost her job. Danny is just as likely to break, but at least when/if he does, he'll have people there for him. It's not the same with Lindsay - maybe Danny will be there for her, assuming he's not the one who makes her break.

Or maybe just regroup. Maybe that's how she gets to fine...with the exception of "Silent Night," she does seem to recover by taking off to regroup, which is why I don't see it as all that unhealthy.

But when she has regrouped, she never seems quite "fine", not like she's recovered - she just seems to have distanced herself. I mean, after the S4 debacle she seemed recovered enough to talk to Danny - only her walls are still up, in a way that they weren't at the beginning of S4. I think at the very beginning of S4, had she gotten pregnant she wouldn't have waited six weeks to tell Danny. And recovered was the last thing she seemed to be in Love Run Cold, even though she was finally able to tell him why she couldn't keep up the flirtation.

I don't know if he hurled himself at it so many times as he got through by just being who he is...sweet and emotional. I think part of what got her was stuff that didn't have to do with her directly--how vulnerable he was in RSRD, for example. I think she kind of felt that protective feeling Flack and Mac feel towards him when she brought him that DNA first. It wasn't just his efforts but him...the fact that he's just the opposite of everything she is.

I definitely agree that Danny being Danny is a large part of what got through to Lindsay...but then, I think Danny being Danny was the reason/cause for the multiple effort he seemed to put in. It's an effort that the other team members probably wouldn't have been able to make, because they don't feel as much as he does, if that makes any sense at all. But I do think if Danny wasn't the type to be that emotionally determined, he wouldn't've gotten through. I think the fact that he is that type is much of what fascinates Lindsay, but I mean, Lindsay knew how sweet he was back in Run Silent, and I agree she felt protective of him. It didn't stop her from holding him at a distance all the same.

He's just needy. He was terrified of giving her too much space for fear she'd up and leave him. That's why he was so freaked out about her going to Montana--and why the only way to make that trip okay for him was for them to marry before she left. If that doesn't speak to his massive fears and insecurities, I don't know what does.

Oh, it definitely speaks to his insecurities, but you know, I think that's something he has to get over too. At least as much as Lindsay needs to get over her bad coping mechanisms, if not more so. I know it's not that simple, there's an ingrained reason for those insecurities, but honestly, they're dragging both Danny and Lindsay (and Lucy, at this point) down into something really ugly. Lindsay's emotional-unavailability certainly doesn't help matters, but then, she's not the one who insists on continuing this farce of a relationship. She's more than susceptible to it (dangerously so, if you ask me - she seems to desperately want to have him any way that he'll allow it), but I think if he'd let her move on, she would move on.

Maybe, though she's in it now, and if she really and truly loves him and cares about him, she'll find a way. Danny's never going to get less emotional, that's for sure.

I agree with this. I personally think that sometimes, Danny could really do with taking a leaf from Lindsay's book and stepping back to just think for a second before acting. But then, lol, he probably wouldn't be Danny. It seems like Lindsay is making baby steps toward putting herself out there for him, though. I had a lot of complaints about S5 D/L, but I did find that moment in the Blue Flu episode (where Danny said Lindsay'd been calling him every hour to see how he was holding up) interesting.

No, but it also teaches you to be a little stronger, something Danny definitely isn't. Lindsay might be isolated, but she knows how to deal with her troubles and knows what she needs to regroup. Danny doesn't. He just acts without thinking--he's rash and impulsive and often gets himself into trouble. If Lindsay is 14 a lot of the time, he's 5--pushing big red buttons that trap him in panic rooms (seriously, who but a child pushes a big red button? :lol: ) and taunting kidnappers until they beat the crap out of him (in "Snow Day") even after the need for a distraction has passed.

True about Danny being a 5-year-old a lot of the time. I can definitely agree that Danny's tendencies to be rash and impulsive could probably lead him to self-destruct faster. But I don't think it's true that isolation teaches you to be stronger - it actually takes far more strength to admit that you need help, and to reach out to people for it. I think Lindsay is every bit as likely to self-destruct (though probably not as quickly, 'cause she seems to make every effort not to reach that point), because she's only under the impression that she knows how to deal with her problems. And we've repeatedly seen how false that impression is.

He seemed irritated to me, both when he said that and admitted the number. (Though really, what guy wouldn't be proud to get three numbers? :lol: )

LOL about the numbers :lol: But it's not like he was bragging to guys (who would probably be more impressed than Lindsay and Stella seemed to be), and it just seems to me that if he'd been truly irritated, he would've at least changed the subject rather than caving to Lindsay and giving her an edge. It's not like either she or Stella were that impressed, and Flack seemed to know it.

Oh, but he puts up with Danny time and time again. From storming out of the diner in "On the Job" to being sulky and evasive in "All in the Family," Danny is constantly difficult for Flack. But Flack never gives up on him, no matter how angry he gets (he was pretty worked up in "All in the Family"!).

Oh yeah, but I can't believe that Flack finds Danny's behaviour irritating or tiresome. At least, not deep down - I think he finds it frustrating sometimes, but that usually seems to cancel out in light of how much he cares about Danny, and knowing what Danny's going through when he's being all those things.

Huffier and more impatient. I don't think he hates her, but I don't think she's his favorite person either. I can't forget the relish in his voice when he told Danny that he should piss Lindsay off more often in "Personal Foul." :lol:

Well, his favourite person is Danny And maybe Sam. The thing is, I can't really see his huffiness as impatience - maybe because he seems to leave himself open to her teasing so often. If he really was impatient with her, you'd think he'd learn after four years to simply not respond when Lindsay's making idle commentary. Tons of people usually let her comments go without responding. Why answer when she asked who could find a doll attractive?

I think I'd take the Personal Foul thing more seriously if he hadn't laughed at her cheerleader joke later in that same episode, though. Danny and Lindsay were on the outs then, there was no reason to be friendly.

 

[Top41]

But I don't think it's that simple. Of course she needs to realize that the problem is there, but I don't think someone telling her off would do anything to tear down the walls. I saw Mac do this in LWFM. Maybe he did it more gently than he would with anyone else, but Lindsay still seemed to internalize the message as harshly as if Mac had shouted - have we seen her mess up at work even once since then? Sloppy-work-wise, or even complaining about a task? But of course this has done nothing to change her behaviour, if anything her walls only seem to have gotten thicker since the end of S4.

Exactly--she hasn't changed. So maybe the gentle approach isn't the right one. She needs therapy, but I doubt we're going to see her get that on TV, so maybe she needs to really mess up and have to face the consequences for it.

I think she at least needs to meet people halfway when they're trying to reach her, but Lindsay seems to need to be reached out to as much as Danny. Moreover, like him, it seems almost impossible to convince her that she's cared about. We've seen Mac and Stella show on several occasions that they care about her, but they've never made the ridiculously-persistent effort Danny did, and so she never seems to quite believe them. I think that persistent-effort is more important than people might think; because when Danny made it, Lindsay's walls did go down for him. They went down until Danny's came up full-force - and that's when hers went up again.

There's the old adage that you have to be a friend to have a friend. Why would Mac and Stella or anyone else make an effort with someone who gives nothing back? Danny only did so because his low self-esteem told him he didn't deserve anything back.

I think if someone did tell her off for being rude, she probably would be motivated to change - but just change the rude behaviour. I don't think it would actually fix the core problem - I think it would just make her more determined to stay hidden until she could interact with people without being rude. She'd adjust her behaviour so that people go back to thinking she was fine, but the problem would still be there.

With anything, an external source isn't going to fix her problems. She has to want to change to make that change. And that's probably got to start with truly caring about someone else...and putting herself in a position she's not comfortable with, which is being an emotional support for someone. She should start with Danny, since she married him.

Yeah, I guess I can see how Danny's coping mechanisms are more self-destructive - Danny always seems determined to just react, whereas Lindsay is almost obssesively committed to not reacting until she's thought things through with a cooler head. But the thing is, I think Lindsay is just as likely to break. I agree with the Ruben thing, but as far as we know, no one close to Lindsay has died since her friends when she was 14 - which is what started this whole problem in the first place. She thinks her coping mechanisms make her a tough survivor, but so far they've barely been tested, and even then have proven to be rather fragile. The trial for that murder (which happened maybe fifteen years ago) is the most traumatic thing we've seen her deal with, and she was practically on the verge of collapse with just that. If she'd had a boss less sympathetic than Stella, she could've lost her job. Danny is just as likely to break, but at least when/if he does, he'll have people there for him. It's not the same with Lindsay - maybe Danny will be there for her, assuming he's not the one who makes her break.

I actually thought she handled the trial okay... she seems to have reserves of strength she draws on. Whereas Danny starts falling apart and compounds it by making bad decisions or just continuing to fall apart (On the Job, Crime & Misdemeanor, RSRD, the Ruben arc). Lindsay strikes me as a survivor, someone who through sheer force of will is going to make herself get through what she needs to. As for the trial, she kind of fell apart on the stand, but then she went back again.

But when she has regrouped, she never seems quite "fine", not like she's recovered - she just seems to have distanced herself. I mean, after the S4 debacle she seemed recovered enough to talk to Danny - only her walls are still up, in a way that they weren't at the beginning of S4. I think at the very beginning of S4, had she gotten pregnant she wouldn't have waited six weeks to tell Danny. And recovered was the last thing she seemed to be in Love Run Cold, even though she was finally able to tell him why she couldn't keep up the flirtation.

Good point about the pregnancy had it happened at the beginning of season four. Kind of makes me wonder how Danny would have reacted then, before the loss of Ruben?

As for LRC, I think she kind of coldly figured out what she needed to do to get through the trial and shut him out. Recovered, maybe not, but okay with her decision and focused on the challenge ahead, definitely.

I definitely agree that Danny being Danny is a large part of what got through to Lindsay...but then, I think Danny being Danny was the reason/cause for the multiple effort he seemed to put in. It's an effort that the other team members probably wouldn't have been able to make, because they don't feel as much as he does, if that makes any sense at all. But I do think if Danny wasn't the type to be that emotionally determined, he wouldn't've gotten through. I think the fact that he is that type is much of what fascinates Lindsay, but I mean, Lindsay knew how sweet he was back in Run Silent, and I agree she felt protective of him. It didn't stop her from holding him at a distance all the same.

I still don't see her distancing herself from him in that episode. If anything, she's probably just treating him the way she'd want to be treated... ie, giving him some space. Mac and Flack both had the greater claim on him at that point anyway.

Oh, it definitely speaks to his insecurities, but you know, I think that's something he has to get over too. At least as much as Lindsay needs to get over her bad coping mechanisms, if not more so. I know it's not that simple, there's an ingrained reason for those insecurities, but honestly, they're dragging both Danny and Lindsay (and Lucy, at this point) down into something really ugly. Lindsay's emotional-unavailability certainly doesn't help matters, but then, she's not the one who insists on continuing this farce of a relationship. She's more than susceptible to it (dangerously so, if you ask me - she seems to desperately want to have him any way that he'll allow it), but I think if he'd let her move on, she would move on.

Yeah, agreed. His insecurity definitely seemed to be driving both them getting back together and getting married. Lindsay is willing to buy into the illusion and go along with it, because she wants him.

I agree with this. I personally think that sometimes, Danny could really do with taking a leaf from Lindsay's book and stepping back to just think for a second before acting. But then, lol, he probably wouldn't be Danny. It seems like Lindsay is making baby steps toward putting herself out there for him, though. I had a lot of complaints about S5 D/L, but I did find that moment in the Blue Flu episode (where Danny said Lindsay'd been calling him every hour to see how he was holding up) interesting.

Oh, totally agree on Danny being rash and needing to think before he acts. Him staying home with the blue flu really seemed selfish to me, but I do remember how she defended him and checked up on him frequently. She's pretty whipped, poor girl. :lol:

True about Danny being a 5-year-old a lot of the time. I can definitely agree that Danny's tendencies to be rash and impulsive could probably lead him to self-destruct faster. But I don't think it's true that isolation teaches you to be stronger - it actually takes far more strength to admit that you need help, and to reach out to people for it. I think Lindsay is every bit as likely to self-destruct (though probably not as quickly, 'cause she seems to make every effort not to reach that point), because she's only under the impression that she knows how to deal with her problems. And we've repeatedly seen how false that impression is.

True, admitting you need help can sometimes be the toughest thing to do. I just don't see her self-destructing. Moving on and leaving if things went south with Danny, maybe, but she just strikes me as a survivor, maybe because she has learned to cope along the way. Like when she decided Danny wasn't as into her as she was to him--she didn't fall apart, she told him she needed to get over him and walked away. It's not easy to walk away from someone you love. From a standpoint of being sympathetic with Danny, I don't like her for it, but from Lindsay's view, that was a tough thing to do, but she did it.

LOL about the numbers :lol: But it's not like he was bragging to guys (who would probably be more impressed than Lindsay and Stella seemed to be), and it just seems to me that if he'd been truly irritated, he would've at least changed the subject rather than caving to Lindsay and giving her an edge. It's not like either she or Stella were that impressed, and Flack seemed to know it.

He caved to peer pressure, like so many people do. She asked, he didn't want to tell her, she pressed and he gave in and told her. If he hadn't, it would have seemed weird.

Oh yeah, but I can't believe that Flack finds Danny's behaviour irritating or tiresome. At least, not deep down - I think he finds it frustrating sometimes, but that usually seems to cancel out in light of how much he cares about Danny, and knowing what Danny's going through when he's being all those things.

I'm sure he does find it frustrating--no one likes to be left sitting in a diner alone! But yeah...Flack cares very, very deeply about Danny and that trumps everything, which is why he's much more patient with Danny than he is with anyone else.

Well, his favourite person is Danny

True!

And maybe Sam. The thing is, I can't really see his huffiness as impatience - maybe because he seems to leave himself open to her teasing so often. If he really was impatient with her, you'd think he'd learn after four years to simply not respond when Lindsay's making idle commentary. Tons of people usually let her comments go without responding. Why answer when she asked who could find a doll attractive?

Flack doesn't strike me as someone who can hold his tongue too often. :lol: He walks into it, sure, but that probably just annoys him even more. :lol:

I think I'd take the Personal Foul thing more seriously if he hadn't laughed at her cheerleader joke later in that same episode, though. Danny and Lindsay were on the outs then, there was no reason to be friendly.

I don't remember the joke, but Flack loves good humor, no matter what the source. He's laughed at suspects' jokes in the past, too.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

Totally agree. I do think Lindsay likes to be in control and likes to calling the shots. That's one of the reasons I was a little disappointed she didn't come back and propose to Danny after he'd proposed to her--I think that would have been cool and would have been a little more fun/less passive than her being dragged to the courthouse. It would have given me more confidence in them as a couple, and seemed less like an act of desperation on Danny's part and weakness on hers, capitulating just because she wanted him and not because she thought it was the best thing.

To be honest I never considered her proposing to him as an option. That would have been fun, and would have given Danny the affirmation that he needed in order to feel secure. But I think she was right in not trying to control this one. She needed him to not be in blind reactionary mode and like she said, get married for the right reasons, not just because he got his girlfriend pregnant. In order for that to happen, she needed to step back from control mode and let him chew on it for a while. I see that as her being cautious, though, not cruel in any way.

I think it was an opposites attract thing. Danny is fascinating--I think Lindsay and Flack and even Mac are drawn to him because he so different from them, so openly passionate and emotional. He fascinates them.

Interesting point. He is definitely not the stereotypical male.

I don't think Danny has a savior complex though...more often than not, he's the one being saved. I think he needs to be needed, which isn't quite the same as a savior complex. Flack has something of a savior complex, with the way he's constantly charging in to save Danny. With Danny I think it was more to feel like he was needed, that someone he had become attached to needed him, too.

Okay, maybe savior complex is the wrong choice of terms here. But I think he definitely sacrifices himself in his attempts to be there for others when he feels either attached or responsible for their pain. He's done it with both Lindsay and Rikki. It's like he doesn't have any other option but to offer himself. And that is sad because how many times can he do that and retain any sense of self. And how vulnerable does it make him to getting hurt himself.

Flack is just such a great, centered, grounded, heroic guy that it's fun to imagine him in a relationship with just about anyone. I liked the pairing with Angell, because I thought it was healthy and fun and sexy. But I do think Flack's totally smitten with Danny.

The Laughing Larry thing was a moment of bonding, which was kind of fun and new for them. I don't think Flack really puts up with a lot from her--there was an edge to his voice when he said "I don't like where you're going with this, Monroe" about the phone numbers. If he puts up with her, I think it's for Danny's sake, not hers..

I really like the character of Flack too. I think the way she was able to poke fun at herself with the block parties in Wyoming in COTP gave him the greenlight to start treating her like one of the team. I didn't see any snarkiness in their comments in People with Money. I thought he saw the girls ganging up on him when Lindsay reiterated the question of how many numbers and responded in defense of that idea. The Laughing Larry moment was great in that finally, for once, Lindsay was on the inside of things, instead of always being odd man out and was actually interacting naturally with her peers. For someone that holds everything so close to the vest, we got a rare glimpse of her childhood. I also liked the two of them in Sex, Lies and Silicone because she felt comfortable enough with him to make him the butt of the joke. She rarely comes out that far from the castle walls with anyone but Mac so for her to initiate that kind of banter with him was a big deal for me.

I disagree. It just allows her to get away with behaviors that aren't really acceptable. He was way too easy on her when she left out evidence. The experiments are one thing, but the evidence was not a good thing and she didn't even get a slap on the wrist or a lecture for it.

But he didn't even have to lecture her. She lectured herself before he got a chance and he did sternly tell her that whatever was or wasn't going on between her and Danny... She got the message loud and clear and I wonder how much that factored into her not wanting to deal with talking about her's and Danny's issues after that.

Stuff like that is where I saw a romantic chemistry between the two.

I also saw approval in that scene from Mac since he told her to go back and try again, and she did and came to a different conclusion.

Another interesting observation. And yeah, I totally don't see Lindsay picking someone up in a bar. I think it's interesting that while we've seen Danny with other women, we've never seen Lindsay even express so much as a passing interest in another guy (or had anyone else interested in her).

I think she had her hands quite full with the one she had:lol:. But you're right. From the moment she hit town, she didn't seem interested in guys at all. How much of that was writing I don't know, because it seems they had her pre-destined for Danny from the first rehearsal. I would like to see how she interacted romantically with at least one other guy to see if it was different from Danny. That would have been very telling I think.

See, I just can't make assumptions about things we don't see happen on screen or don't hear a reference to. The fact that we never got a single throwaway line about her trying to reach out to him tells me she didn't. In the same vein, because we never saw Danny reach out to Flack in 513 (the ep where Flack was suspected of killing the suspect), I don't assume that he did (and I think that reflects pretty badly on Danny, given all Flack has done for him).

I realize that we didn't see it or hear about it after the fact but the set up for it to happen was dead on accurate in my opinion. The fact that Mac can't get through to him, Lindsay rushes in as soon as she hears, Danny leaves, she asks Mac for advise and then leaves in the same direction gives me no other option than to think she went after him. I will allow that my theory on her being rejected by him is mine alone, but if he won't take consolation from Mac, who he sees as a father figure and whose approval he clearly needs and who is trying to let him off the hook, he certainly isn't going to take any help from Lindsay, someone with all kinds of emotional issues of her own. It's the only place I can go that makes sense. Lindsay has been there for him in giving him test results that implicate him and asking how he's doing when Louie was at the hospital, but this is real emotional involvement and for her to even consider going out on that limb for him and hand him the saw by acknowledging that she wasn't good at this, as Mac suggested...that was HUGE for her. I still think she did it.

It's not adult to not give the other person a chance to respond or to speak. She stormed off before he could say anything, and when he did try to say stuff to her later, she brushed him off and avoided him.

She gave him a chance to talk, and only stormed off when he didn't even look up at her, telling him that she was through trying (my interpretation of her comment). If she hadn't been right next to bursting out in tears I would see her waiting for an answer of some sort but Lindsay doesn't show her pain well and I can see her wanting to get away before she fell apart completely or said something else.

It was the first time that Danny knew about though. I still don't think we can assume she found him in "Child's Play" and Flack never told her that Danny sent him in "All in the Family." She helped in that, but from behind the scenes.

I realize that and it continues to bug me that Flack offered help, went back to the lab for her to help him with a test, and then didn't tell Danny (that we are aware of anyway) that she was concerned. (I'm assuming you meant that Flack didn't tell Danny that Lindsay sent him to look for him, right? If not, you're gonna have to help me understand that one!)

Yeah, but in such a way designed to make him feel like complete and utter shit when he already felt like complete and utter shit. "I'm mad at myself for falling for you" says to Danny he's not worth loving/someone not worthy of love. That's designed to twist the knife. It was cruel, even if she didn't intend it to be so.

No. If she wanted to make him feel like complete and utter shit she would have blamed him for making her fall in love and then cutting her off. What I heard her say was that she was not holding him responsible for her actions and decisions. The cruelty was in Lindsay, once again, taking control and taking the decision out of his hands as to what he might want to do with her love for him. She just picked up her paperdolls and went back into the castle, leaving him with the knowledge that he was loved, and left alone. That was cruel, I will give you that. But it fits so clearly in the way her character deals with emotion that I don't think we can expect anything else from her. I don't think she thought she was being cruel.

The most interesting thing was that he didn't have anything to say to her while she was ranting, but as soon as she had pulled herself together and was focusing on work again, here he comes and wants to talk. I can't say I blame her for not wanting to engage in meaningful conversation about the subject.

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by Top41:
Exactly--she hasn't changed. So maybe the gentle approach isn't the right one. She needs therapy, but I doubt we're going to see her get that on TV, so maybe she needs to really mess up and have to face the consequences for it.

I think I could get behind this, if it was done believably. But I'm not sure if just messing up would be enough, because I think the consequences could easily shatter her. Getting into this for a second...

There's the old adage that you have to be a friend to have a friend. Why would Mac and Stella or anyone else make an effort with someone who gives nothing back? Danny only did so because his low self-esteem told him he didn't deserve anything back.

See, I'm not sure it's even as simple as just making that extra effort to give, so that less-damaged people give back. Lindsay's always been socially awkward, but it's always struck me how the first half of season 4 is, comparatively, the warmest and most open we've ever seen her. Just during those first few episodes of S4, she seemed so much happier,and thus warmer and more genuinely receptive to people and feelings - not just with Danny, but a lot of her interactions with Stella, Mac, even Hawkes (somewhat) were warmer and more fun, lacking the same extent of aloofness we usually see from her. She was less stiff, more willing to just let herself go and drop the walls a little. Easy to explain, right? She was feeling happier and (at least, from her perspective) cared for by Danny, and it showed. It was like knowing at least one person really cared for her made it easier to reach out to other people. Having that base of guaranteed care, just seems so important with her.


[I picked up on most of this during my re-watch of S4, but I'm also partly going on something Anna Belknap said during the S4 DVD interviews: about Lindsay at the beginning of S4 being happier because she was with Danny, and it reflecting in her behaviour.]


Of course, it then turned out that person didn't care as much as she thought he did, so everything took a sharp reverse. Clearly, Lindsay's damage is that she depends on feeling cared about before she can make that extra effort to drop her walls - and she shouldn't. In a way, she's almost as damagingly-needy as Danny is. This is probably where therapy would come in, to rid her of that dependence. Like you said, we're not likely to see this, but I really think if she ever had that base of knowing for sure someone cared again, that would help her make the extra effort - again. It's one reason I really think both Danny and Lindsay need to move on from this ugly non-relationship of theirs. I think it'd be equally important for both of them.

With anything, an external source isn't going to fix her problems. She has to want to change to make that change. And that's probably got to start with truly caring about someone else...and putting herself in a position she's not comfortable with, which is being an emotional support for someone. She should start with Danny, since she married him.

I agree, I don't think an external source will fix anything, and I think skhe has to want to change. But I think it's the other way around, especially with the way she is now - I think it's only going start with someone truly caring about her, rather than her truly caring about someone else. I mean, she truly cares about Danny now and it partly shows, but her walls are still up, mostly because I think on some level she knows perfectly well he doesn't care about her (at least, not the way he seemed to in S3).

I actually thought she handled the trial okay... she seems to have reserves of strength she draws on. Whereas Danny starts falling apart and compounds it by making bad decisions or just continuing to fall apart (On the Job, Crime & Misdemeanor, RSRD, the Ruben arc). Lindsay strikes me as a survivor, someone who through sheer force of will is going to make herself get through what she needs to. As for the trial, she kind of fell apart on the stand, but then she went back again.

I guess what really struck me about the trial (and everything leading up to it in S3) is how fragile those reserves of strength are, even as she's desperate to draw on them. I agree to an extent that she's a survivor, or at least that she's determined to be one. I think she had every intention of getting through that trial if it killed her. Problem is, I think it very easily could have - or at least shattered her. She went back for the second half of the trial, but I'm so unsure on whether she actually would've gotten through it if Danny hadn't walked in literally as she started testifying again.

And that was just the trial. I know it brought back bad memories for her, but the worst of everything happened at least a decade and a half ago, yet her defences were still failing her (or at least, failing to protect her from harming herself). I saw a similar thing at the end of S4, though I agree it does take strength to walk away from someone she loves. Her method of dealing (avoiding him) was interfering with her life in a destructive way. Again, if she'd had a boss less sympathetic than Mac, she probably would've been fired for leaving evidence out.

I guess I can see how Danny would be more likely to self-destruct, if only because he seems (when in pain) to rush headlong into self-destructive things whereas Lindsay tries to run from those self-destructive things. I just think I could easily see Lindsay breaking, too. Her coping mechanisms aren't the strongest even with the comparatively-minor crises we've seen them tested against. One good crisis - like something happening to/with Lucy or Danny - I think could shatter her. She may be stronger in that she's more determined to survive, but I guess I just see Danny as being in a healthier place strictly in terms of interpersonal relationships. Because when he's on the verge of shattering, he's transparent enough that people can see it, and open and magnetic enough that people actually want to help him through it. Lindsay...well, she's not transparent, and doesn't have anyone other than Danny close enough to want to help that much.

Good point about the pregnancy had it happened at the beginning of season four. Kind of makes me wonder how Danny would have reacted then, before the loss of Ruben?

Honestly, he didn't seem that into her even at the beginning of S4 (even though she couldn't seem to see this), so I think it would've been similar to what we have now - it being all about the baby. ....wow, but I don't even want to think about what could've happened if they'd been having a baby and the Ruben thing had still happened

I still don't see her distancing herself from him in that episode. If anything, she's probably just treating him the way she'd want to be treated... ie, giving him some space. Mac and Flack both had the greater claim on him at that point anyway.

I dunno, I wasn't so much talking about just Run Silent, although I think we saw an important pattern in Run Silent (I mean, she was nowhere to be found when Danny was breaking down over Aiden, either). I just saw her as holding him at a distance throughout season 2, even as she was drawn to him.

Oh, totally agree on Danny being rash and needing to think before he acts. Him staying home with the blue flu really seemed selfish to me, but I do remember how she defended him and checked up on him frequently. She's pretty whipped, poor girl. :lol:

LOL, I know. It just seems so sad, though, putting all this effort into someone who probably isn't ever going to feel the same way about her.

Flack doesn't strike me as someone who can hold his tongue too often. :lol: He walks into it, sure, but that probably just annoys him even more. :lol:

Lol, no kidding :lol:

I don't remember the joke, but Flack loves good humor, no matter what the source. He's laughed at suspects' jokes in the past, too.

I agree about Flack loving good humour, but I don't know - it was a funny enough joke, but not exactly hilarious you know? (Danny didn't even seem to register it, and he likes good humour at least as much as Flack.) So it seemed just out of place, oddly friendly.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

I think Lindsay needs a good strong friend who is not rattled by her outbursts or judgemental of her one-sided view of things and is willing to let her unload in a safe place in order to get the emotion out of her system. Someone that can then guide her and help her emotions grow up. I don't know that Danny is healthy enough emotionally himself to get her there. Unfortunately, I don't think we have any better chance of seeing this on the show than we do of her getting professional therapy. I am hoping that being a mom will help her see that she is going to have come out of herself and focus on someone else's happiness and fears and stop focusing on hers so much. If that could happen, her emotions could stand a chance of maturing.

I liked what Maya316 said about the awkwardness of her conversation with Stella in the hospital. Sadly though, it all came back around to Lindsay. Her words were "I'm going to be in therapy trying to save my entire family". Not "my entire family will be in therapy trying to get healthy". She's already projecting into the future trying to control things that haven't even happened yet. I just don't know how long she will be able to handle bearing the entire burden for everything before she shatters. That shattering may be what makes her want to change if she doesn't let someone help her get there.

I don't think making a a work-related mistake and getting in trouble will do anything more than make her tighten her control so as not to make that same mistake again. Look what happened when Mac scolded her for leaving evidence out. He said that anything to do with Danny, good or bad can't affect what she does at the lab and at that point, she shut that door and locked it. I know she was hurt, and angry, but I really think what Mac said had an impact on her not wanting to deal with anything personal with Danny. At least at work, which is where he wanted to talk and which is all we ever see.

Lindsay in Run Silent Run Deep stepped out of line by taking that test result to Danny first, but she also went to the hospital with Mac and asked Danny how he was doing. Mac also mentioned to Danny that Lindsay told him Danny listened to the tape. I don't know who went to who but I did feel like she was there for him as much as she could be. That was a very Danny-Mac-centric episode and everyone else sort of existed in the background. In Heroes, Danny did much the same thing as he did in Child's Play (didn't realize it until just now) when he realized the vic was Aiden he threw out his hands and left the room. I don't think Lindsay had much opportunity to do much talking with him. I did find it interesting that she asked Hawkes and Stella about Aiden. I seem to remember Top thinking that she was poking around for information about Danny by asking about Aiden, but I got more of an impression that she was fascinated by the team's passionate response to her death and wanted to know who this girl was that evoked that response. Seeing as how she was Danny's new partner it would be normal to wonder about the person whose place you had taken.

I really need to bite the bullet and buy S3 and S4 DVD's. It's gonna be a while before S6 starts and Spike TV has replaced NY with LV so I'm stuck.

Danny won't leave me alone today so I'm back writing a few lines about him. I hope it doesn't get ridiculously long but I'm not promising anything.

Danny is complicated. He is an emotional being, passionate, and loyal to the death of people he is invested in. He's also incredibely juvenile at times, needy and hotheaded, always ready to go toe-to-toe with authority and he's his own worst enemy when it comes to staying out of trouble.

As an asie, I love how he interacts with Stella. He is protective at times, brotherly at others, and very respectful of her as a woman all the time. He doesn't flirt with her or play the wiseass, even when her necklines are plunging beyond belief! He listens to her and takes advise and instruction without any backtalk. He's different with her and it fascinates me because he seems most normal and relaxed with her, not trying to prove anything. He doesn't seem desperate for her approval as he is with Mac. It's an interesting dynamic.

I think his damage comes from an entirely different place than Lindsay's and it's harder to figure out because I don't have a major event to use as a starting point. So a lot of this is perhaps and maybe and could be.

Mac is his chosen father figure, which is interesting seeing as how he has a father of his own. This makes me think that his father and his brother are both in gang/mob related activities and Danny has perhaps disappointed his father by not following in family tradition. I think Louie may have protected Danny from a lot, maybe to give him a chance to live a different kind of life than the gang relationship he had himself. I have the feeling that even though Louie was the "badboy in the gang" that Danny's family spent a fair amount of time getting Danny out of scrapes due to his hotheaded nature. Why were he and his dad in a gypsy cab? Perhaps because his dad had to get him out of a jam in a hurry? Maybe. I don't remember how old Danny was at the time. If Danny is a screw-up now, we can only imagine that he started early and his family had to deal with it too. But then again, Danny probably inherited a reputation that he didn't create just because he was Louie Messer's little brother, which was probably hard on him so he may have reaped a bit more trouble than he sowed. But in protecting him, I think Louie did push him away, which Danny didn't understand the significance of until Louie got beat up trying to help him as an adult. Until that moment, all Danny knew was his brother rejected him and that hurt.

I wonder how many parents didn't want Danny around their kids just because of his family. He is very sensitive to people's opinion of him, which speaks to his possibly being misjudged as a youth. He can't stand to be badmouthed, and feels extremely vulnerable unless he knows without a doubt that he has the support of his peers, all of which makes me think his family sort of deserted him when he chose to go down a different path. Even with Lindsay he is unsure of her belief in him as the right guy to be husband and father to their child just because she didn't jump at the chance to marry him. What she meant as caution he saw as rejection.

He has great sympathy for families that he deals with when things go wrong and family members die. I love how he went back to the kid whose father was a gypsy cabbie and makes a point to apologize for casting the father in a bad light. He wanted the kid to know that his father was someone he could be proud of. The fact that it was that important to Danny makes me think that it took him back to his own childhood and by apologizing he may be giving us a glimpse of what others thought of his family and how it affected him.

I hope that marriage and fatherhood will calm him down and give him the affirmation that he seems to need in order to leave his past and move forward. He's really a great guy with a lot of potential and in spite of his lack of confidence he's a warm and caring man. Like Rikki said, he's a sweet man. Lindsay is more than lucky to have him in her life.

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake

I think Lindsay needs a good strong friend who is not rattled by her outbursts or judgemental of her one-sided view of things and is willing to let her unload in a safe place in order to get the emotion out of her system. Someone that can then guide her and help her emotions grow up. I don't know that Danny is healthy enough emotionally himself to get her there. Unfortunately, I don't think we have any better chance of seeing this on the show than we do of her getting professional therapy. I am hoping that being a mom will help her see that she is going to have come out of herself and focus on someone else's happiness and fears and stop focusing on hers so much. If that could happen, her emotions could stand a chance of maturing.

Yes! I think, ideally, she'd get this good strong friend who'd help her emotions mature and grow up...which, yeah, I don't know how likely we are to see that on the show. I do think that just starting with a good, strong friend who's not rattled by her, though, would be cool enough. Back when I wasn't watching NY as a series, just watching it in random, out-of-order episodes, I actually sort of liked the D/L friendship because I thought Danny was this good strong friend (as in, a friend not in a relationshippy capacity).

Lindsay in Run Silent Run Deep stepped out of line by taking that test result to Danny first, but she also went to the hospital with Mac and asked Danny how he was doing. Mac also mentioned to Danny that Lindsay told him Danny listened to the tape. I don't know who went to who but I did feel like she was there for him as much as she could be. That was a very Danny-Mac-centric episode and everyone else sort of existed in the background. In Heroes, Danny did much the same thing as he did in Child's Play (didn't realize it until just now) when he realized the vic was Aiden he threw out his hands and left the room.

I know the case in Heroes would've been the same as in Run Silent - Flack and Mac having more of a claim to provide emotional support than Lindsay, therefore it's not surprising that we didn't see Lindsay offer this support. But Lindsay's entire response to Danny in all those episodes seemed really significant, so I can't think it's just a coincidence that she didn't offer much support. I mean, Stella didn't have a great claim on Danny either, but she still asked Flack how he was holding up when his badge was taken away, even though she didn't even see Danny for the rest of the episode. She went out of her way to check on Danny. Lindsay asked Danny if he was okay - because he was literally right in front of her, and she'd been brought to the hospital by Mac to process Louie's clothes. I know she cared about him, but I honestly can't say she would've otherwise gone out of her way to check on him.

I do think she already found herself caring deeply about Danny, and feeling kind of protective of his vulnerability. That Aiden-line to Stella may have just been her fishing for dirt on Aiden/Danny, but I always thought that it came from the same place of protectiveness that led her to give Danny the DNA results in Run Silent. She seemed genuinely sad when she was talking about how Danny talked about Aiden, like she was sad for him. But I don't think it stopped her from holding him at a distance.

I really need to bite the bullet and buy S3 and S4 DVD's. It's gonna be a while before S6 starts and Spike TV has replaced NY with LV so I'm stuck.

Yes! There is so much good stuff in the S4 DVD interviews, they're at least as good as the episodes. Has Spike TV replaced NY with LV? I thought they were sharing airtime (on weekdays, usually three episodes of NY, then of LV?)

I hope that marriage and fatherhood will calm him down and give him the affirmation that he seems to need in order to leave his past and move forward. He's really a great guy with a lot of potential and in spite of his lack of confidence he's a warm and caring man. Like Rikki said, he's a sweet man. Lindsay is more than lucky to have him in her life.

I actually don't want Danny to calm down, at least not completely. I think it would be good for him if he did, but at the same time I don't think he'd be Danny if he wasn't rash. And for the most part, I agree that Lindsay's lucky to have him in her life (and I think she more than thinks so, too). I just wish she could have him in her life in a less emotionally-damaging capacity. They would work so well as just friends - at least, so much better than they work now.

 

[Top41]

So much great stuff here! Totally won't be able to hit everything because of time and the 20,000 character limit for posts (which I actually ran into last time, lol!), but here goes...

To be honest I never considered her proposing to him as an option. That would have been fun, and would have given Danny the affirmation that he needed in order to feel secure. But I think she was right in not trying to control this one. She needed him to not be in blind reactionary mode and like she said, get married for the right reasons, not just because he got his girlfriend pregnant. In order for that to happen, she needed to step back from control mode and let him chew on it for a while. I see that as her being cautious, though, not cruel in any way.

No, I agree she was being cautious, but I think it would have been cool for Lindsay to take a less passive role in the whole thing. The whole fifth season was about Danny's reaction to Lindsay's pregnancy, not Lindsay's. But in light of Danny's obviously confused feelings, I can see more now why she'd wait for him to really come around. That first proposal--which started out with a question about mental illness in her family and other "romantic" stuff like that!-- was clearly not anything other than him trying to do the right thing.

Okay, maybe savior complex is the wrong choice of terms here. But I think he definitely sacrifices himself in his attempts to be there for others when he feels either attached or responsible for their pain. He's done it with both Lindsay and Rikki. It's like he doesn't have any other option but to offer himself. And that is sad because how many times can he do that and retain any sense of self. And how vulnerable does it make him to getting hurt himself.

Agreed completely and totally. Danny lets others use him, and it's almost like that's what makes him feel good about himself. Which is really pretty sad.

I also saw approval in that scene from Mac since he told her to go back and try again, and she did and came to a different conclusion.

I remember her as unwilling to stray from her assumption in that episode. I don't think he was so much offering approval as he was trying to teach her to not look at the evidence through the lens of her own initial conclusions.

I realize that we didn't see it or hear about it after the fact but the set up for it to happen was dead on accurate in my opinion. The fact that Mac can't get through to him, Lindsay rushes in as soon as she hears, Danny leaves, she asks Mac for advise and then leaves in the same direction gives me no other option than to think she went after him. I will allow that my theory on her being rejected by him is mine alone, but if he won't take consolation from Mac, who he sees as a father figure and whose approval he clearly needs and who is trying to let him off the hook, he certainly isn't going to take any help from Lindsay, someone with all kinds of emotional issues of her own. It's the only place I can go that makes sense. Lindsay has been there for him in giving him test results that implicate him and asking how he's doing when Louie was at the hospital, but this is real emotional involvement and for her to even consider going out on that limb for him and hand him the saw by acknowledging that she wasn't good at this, as Mac suggested...that was HUGE for her. I still think she did it.

If anything, it was a half-hearted attempt. She gave him enough of a head start that I can't see her having caught up with him. She spoke with Mac, listened to Mac and then possibly went off after Danny, knowing full well she'd never catch up with him. I think her mentality in that scene was that she'd deal with it later... but obviously later never came.

I realize that and it continues to bug me that Flack offered help, went back to the lab for her to help him with a test, and then didn't tell Danny (that we are aware of anyway) that she was concerned. (I'm assuming you meant that Flack didn't tell Danny that Lindsay sent him to look for him, right? If not, you're gonna have to help me understand that one!)

Yeah, that's what I meant--Flack never mentioned to Danny that she was the one who told him what was going on. Again, to me it's a small sign that Flack isn't her biggest fan, at least when it it comes to her relationship with Danny. There's a charge of discomfort between them when they collaborate when Danny's in danger. I sensed it in "Snow Day" (he didn't look at her when he told her about Danny not sounding good, the EMS thing at the end--the look on Flack's face as she dragged Danny off was not a happy or content one) and saw it here, too--again, he didn't look at her for much of the time when they were in the lab recovering the phone number, and he never once said to Danny, "Lindsay sent me after you because she was worried"--even if it could have been a helpful way to get Danny's attention and show him just how many people are worried about him. So yeah...I don't think Danny knew Lindsay had alerted/helped Flack, so he didn't know that she made that effort.

No. If she wanted to make him feel like complete and utter shit she would have blamed him for making her fall in love and then cutting her off. What I heard her say was that she was not holding him responsible for her actions and decisions. The cruelty was in Lindsay, once again, taking control and taking the decision out of his hands as to what he might want to do with her love for him. She just picked up her paperdolls and went back into the castle, leaving him with the knowledge that he was loved, and left alone. That was cruel, I will give you that. But it fits so clearly in the way her character deals with emotion that I don't think we can expect anything else from her. I don't think she thought she was being cruel.

I can definitely see that. It was cruel but she didn't mean it to be that way.

The most interesting thing was that he didn't have anything to say to her while she was ranting, but as soon as she had pulled herself together and was focusing on work again, here he comes and wants to talk. I can't say I blame her for not wanting to engage in meaningful conversation about the subject.

I think he was totally taken aback. Danny saw Rikki as the one in need, and as strange as it sounds, I don't think he thought what he was doing with Rikki had anything to do with Lindsay. Anyone with his head on straight would, but this is Danny. Lindsay's just going to get tired of him eventually, and she got what she wanted from him. What he was doing with Rikki wasn't about love or lust--he was letting someone that he believed he has wronged greatly use him to feel better. And letting her use him made him feel better, because he was doing something to ease her pain. I think he was totally stunned by Lindsay's pronouncement, which is why it took him a while to come up with something to say to her. And when he did, it wasn't "I love you" or even really, "I made a huge mistake" but "I miss you, how can I fix this?" Danny really is an interesting case, that's for sure.

See, I'm not sure it's even as simple as just making that extra effort to give, so that less-damaged people give back. Lindsay's always been socially awkward, but it's always struck me how the first half of season 4 is, comparatively, the warmest and most open we've ever seen her. Just during those first few episodes of S4, she seemed so much happier,and thus warmer and more genuinely receptive to people and feelings - not just with Danny, but a lot of her interactions with Stella, Mac, even Hawkes (somewhat) were warmer and more fun, lacking the same extent of aloofness we usually see from her. She was less stiff, more willing to just let herself go and drop the walls a little. Easy to explain, right? She was feeling happier and (at least, from her perspective) cared for by Danny, and it showed. It was like knowing at least one person really cared for her made it easier to reach out to other people. Having that base of guaranteed care, just seems so important with her.

Of course, it then turned out that person didn't care as much as she thought he did, so everything took a sharp reverse. Clearly, Lindsay's damage is that she depends on feeling cared about before she can make that extra effort to drop her walls - and she shouldn't. In a way, she's almost as damagingly-needy as Danny is. This is probably where therapy would come in, to rid her of that dependence. Like you said, we're not likely to see this, but I really think if she ever had that base of knowing for sure someone cared again, that would help her make the extra effort - again. It's one reason I really think both Danny and Lindsay need to move on from this ugly non-relationship of theirs. I think it'd be equally important for both of them.

Yeah, I can definitely see that--at the same time, if it's all about Danny caring for her and not about her caring for him, I think it's borderline abusive. Lindsay is a taker--she really doesn't give a lot back. And the problem with being in an adult relationship is that it's about reciprocity... you have be able to care for someone as well as have that person care about you. That's why the relationship fell apart after Ruben's death--because Lindsay didn't know how to turn around and give Danny what he'd given her in season three.

Thinking back on the beginning of season four, Lindsay did seem happier then. But I also thought she seemed pretty happy in the first part of season two when she was starting out her new job and getting to know NYC. I don't think her happiness is entirely dependent on being loved. It's pretty natural for someone to get happier and more open when they're in a relationship with someone they've had a crush on for a while.

I agree, I don't think an external source will fix anything, and I think skhe has to want to change. But I think it's the other way around, especially with the way she is now - I think it's only going start with someone truly caring about her, rather than her truly caring about someone else. I mean, she truly cares about Danny now and it partly shows, but her walls are still up, mostly because I think on some level she knows perfectly well he doesn't care about her (at least, not the way he seemed to in S3).

Yeah...but that's external. She needs to be happy with herself before she's going to be any good in a relationship anyway. If she's just going to put her walls up when the going gets tough, she's never going to find a fulfilling relationship. I'm sure part of the problem now is that she knows on some level Danny is with her because of the baby.

I guess what really struck me about the trial (and everything leading up to it in S3) is how fragile those reserves of strength are, even as she's desperate to draw on them. I agree to an extent that she's a survivor, or at least that she's determined to be one. I think she had every intention of getting through that trial if it killed her. Problem is, I think it very easily could have - or at least shattered her. She went back for the second half of the trial, but I'm so unsure on whether she actually would've gotten through it if Danny hadn't walked in literally as she started testifying again.

I think we're supposed to think that seeing Danny was what gave her the strength to push through her testimony, but at the same time, she got back on that stand on her own, before he showed up. I'd like to think that she found her strength on her own rather than that it was dependent on Danny showing up. Him being there hardened her resolve and made it easier, but if she'd really not been able to handle it, I think she wouldn't have gotten back on that stand.

=
I guess I can see how Danny would be more likely to self-destruct, if only because he seems (when in pain) to rush headlong into self-destructive things whereas Lindsay tries to run from those self-destructive things. I just think I could easily see Lindsay breaking, too. Her coping mechanisms aren't the strongest even with the comparatively-minor crises we've seen them tested against. One good crisis - like something happening to/with Lucy or Danny - I think could shatter her. She may be stronger in that she's more determined to survive, but I guess I just see Danny as being in a healthier place strictly in terms of interpersonal relationships. Because when he's on the verge of shattering, he's transparent enough that people can see it, and open and magnetic enough that people actually want to help him through it. Lindsay...well, she's not transparent, and doesn't have anyone other than Danny close enough to want to help that much.

Lindsay wouldn't have the support system Danny does, though I think if something happened the team would rally around her, too. She's one of them, a member of the family, even if she's not the beloved little wreck Danny is. The thing about Danny is that his emotional nature and passion endears him to everyone. I think everyone on the team genuinely loves Danny--he's the heart of the team. I think they care about Lindsay, too, and would more if she let them in. I just don't see her as someone who would shatter, whereas Danny is just one more tragedy away from breaking.

I dunno, I wasn't so much talking about just Run Silent, although I think we saw an important pattern in Run Silent (I mean, she was nowhere to be found when Danny was breaking down over Aiden, either). I just saw her as holding him at a distance throughout season 2, even as she was drawn to him.

I just didn't see it as holding him at a distance so much as not sure how to handle/approach him. She did what she could, but Mac and Flack were there in the foreground, Mac working the case with absolute dedication and Flack guarding Danny to make sure nothing happened to him. Flack was hanging around Danny in "Heroes" in the same way, checking in on him and making sure he holding up okay.

LOL, I know. It just seems so sad, though, putting all this effort into someone who probably isn't ever going to feel the same way about her.

True, though I think Danny will always put in the effort. He does care about her, and who knows--maybe if he ever sorts his many, many issues out, he can be healthy enough to figure out what he wants, and if he does indeed love Lindsay.

I don't remember the joke, but Flack loves good humor, no matter what the source. He's laughed at suspects' jokes in the past, too.

I agree about Flack loving good humour, but I don't know - it was a funny enough joke, but not exactly hilarious you know? (Danny didn't even seem to register it, and he likes good humour at least as much as Flack.) So it seemed just out of place, oddly friendly.[/QUOTE]

Danny is actually terribly unfunny--one of the cutest things about the character is that where Flack is naturally funny, Danny's jokes are just usually bad/lame. Even Lindsay picked up on it in "Stuck on You." I don't remember the joke, but if it really was funny, Danny could have totally missed it. :lol:

 

[Top41]

Had to split this into two posts since my reply was way too long! :lol: Continuing...

I think Lindsay needs a good strong friend who is not rattled by her outbursts or judgemental of her one-sided view of things and is willing to let her unload in a safe place in order to get the emotion out of her system. Someone that can then guide her and help her emotions grow up. I don't know that Danny is healthy enough emotionally himself to get her there. Unfortunately, I don't think we have any better chance of seeing this on the show than we do of her getting professional therapy. I am hoping that being a mom will help her see that she is going to have come out of herself and focus on someone else's happiness and fears and stop focusing on hers so much. If that could happen, her emotions could stand a chance of maturing.

Agreed. I think her best chance at learning to really care about someone else is through her daughter...which is why I found it less than promising when she passed her off on lab workers in "Grounds for Deception." Not in an irresponsible way--those people weren't strangers--but definitely in a way that didn't suggest she was bonding with her child. It's Danny that seems to be the really involved parent at this point.

I liked what Maya316 said about the awkwardness of her conversation with Stella in the hospital. Sadly though, it all came back around to Lindsay. Her words were "I'm going to be in therapy trying to save my entire family". Not "my entire family will be in therapy trying to get healthy". She's already projecting into the future trying to control things that haven't even happened yet. I just don't know how long she will be able to handle bearing the entire burden for everything before she shatters. That shattering may be what makes her want to change if she doesn't let someone help her get there.

I do think she has control issues, but I still don't see her on the edge of shattering. I think that she knows she's going to have to be the tough parent. Let's face it--that's not going to be Danny. :lol:

Lindsay in Run Silent Run Deep stepped out of line by taking that test result to Danny first, but she also went to the hospital with Mac and asked Danny how he was doing. Mac also mentioned to Danny that Lindsay told him Danny listened to the tape. I don't know who went to who but I did feel like she was there for him as much as she could be. That was a very Danny-Mac-centric episode and everyone else sort of existed in the background. In Heroes, Danny did much the same thing as he did in Child's Play (didn't realize it until just now) when he realized the vic was Aiden he threw out his hands and left the room. I don't think Lindsay had much opportunity to do much talking with him.

I don't think she did either, but I don't think she really tried after that moment, which was obviously a mistake. Interesting point about Danny's reaction being the same: I do think he kind of goes off to cry on his own--he had also left Louie's hospital room in RSRD to go cry, and just happened to run into Mac. He didn't run from Mac then--he let Mac hold him while he cried. Maybe he would have let Lindsay do so, too.

I did find it interesting that she asked Hawkes and Stella about Aiden. I seem to remember Top thinking that she was poking around for information about Danny by asking about Aiden, but I got more of an impression that she was fascinated by the team's passionate response to her death and wanted to know who this girl was that evoked that response. Seeing as how she was Danny's new partner it would be normal to wonder about the person whose place you had taken.

In the question about Danny and Aiden being close, I saw much more than just a curiosity about the woman whose place she had taken. I definitely think it was motivated by an interest in Danny, and maybe in part a curiosity about the woman who seemed to to have fit into the team better than she herself did.

Danny won't leave me alone today so I'm back writing a few lines about him. I hope it doesn't get ridiculously long but I'm not promising anything.

LOL, Danny is pesky like that. He kind of just demands attention. :lol:

Danny is complicated. He is an emotional being, passionate, and loyal to the death of people he is invested in. He's also incredibely juvenile at times, needy and hotheaded, always ready to go toe-to-toe with authority and he's his own worst enemy when it comes to staying out of trouble.

Danny has lost and/or seen a lot of people he cared about hurt, and in quick succession at the end of season two. Louie in a coma, Aiden murdered, Flack nearly killed in a bombing--and all within the space of a handful of episodes. I've always kind of seen that as leading up to the way he clung to Lindsay in season three, and perhaps part of the reason I find her behavior towards him so mean-spirited. Danny was trying to help/get close to someone he thought seemed interested in him and maybe even cared about him, and she repeatedly shut him down. It also makes me think he withdrew from her in season four because after the way she treated him in season three, he really didn't think she cared about him. He's massively insecure, but even a secure guy might have come to a similar conclusion.

As an asie, I love how he interacts with Stella. He is protective at times, brotherly at others, and very respectful of her as a woman all the time. He doesn't flirt with her or play the wiseass, even when her necklines are plunging beyond belief! He listens to her and takes advise and instruction without any backtalk. He's different with her and it fascinates me because he seems most normal and relaxed with her, not trying to prove anything. He doesn't seem desperate for her approval as he is with Mac. It's an interesting dynamic.

I think Danny definitely doesn't have a problem with women at all--his damage, I suspect, comes at the hands of men and not women. He really seems to respect and get along with women well.

I think his damage comes from an entirely different place than Lindsay's and it's harder to figure out because I don't have a major event to use as a starting point. So a lot of this is perhaps and maybe and could be.

I hope one day we get to see it, because I have a feeling whatever it is will kind of help to explain the reason he is the way he is. There seems like there's something big there, maybe so big that the writers haven't yet wanted to tackle it because of how significant it will be. It's got to be something that really pays off and makes the audience go, "Ah ha! So that's what's made Danny who he is."

Mac is his chosen father figure, which is interesting seeing as how he has a father of his own. This makes me think that his father and his brother are both in gang/mob related activities and Danny has perhaps disappointed his father by not following in family tradition. I think Louie may have protected Danny from a lot, maybe to give him a chance to live a different kind of life than the gang relationship he had himself. I have the feeling that even though Louie was the "badboy in the gang" that Danny's family spent a fair amount of time getting Danny out of scrapes due to his hotheaded nature. Why were he and his dad in a gypsy cab? Perhaps because his dad had to get him out of a jam in a hurry? Maybe. I don't remember how old Danny was at the time. If Danny is a screw-up now, we can only imagine that he started early and his family had to deal with it too. But then again, Danny probably inherited a reputation that he didn't create just because he was Louie Messer's little brother, which was probably hard on him so he may have reaped a bit more trouble than he sowed. But in protecting him, I think Louie did push him away, which Danny didn't understand the significance of until Louie got beat up trying to help him as an adult. Until that moment, all Danny knew was his brother rejected him and that hurt.

I don't see Danny being a screw up as a kid, though I guess it's possible. I think Louie was the bad boy, and Danny probably looked up to him but didn't rebel in the same way. I think the key to Danny's damage lies with his father, or maybe some other male relative. I still think it probably comes back to some sort of abuse in his childhood.

I wonder how many parents didn't want Danny around their kids just because of his family. He is very sensitive to people's opinion of him, which speaks to his possibly being misjudged as a youth. He can't stand to be badmouthed, and feels extremely vulnerable unless he knows without a doubt that he has the support of his peers, all of which makes me think his family sort of deserted him when he chose to go down a different path. Even with Lindsay he is unsure of her belief in him as the right guy to be husband and father to their child just because she didn't jump at the chance to marry him. What she meant as caution he saw as rejection.

Exactly. He's incredibly insecure about what people think of him, about not being good enough. I think he must have been told repeatedly as a child that he wasn't good enough, that he wasn't any good, that he wasn't worthwhile, because that belief seems so ingrained in him.

He has great sympathy for families that he deals with when things go wrong and family members die. I love how he went back to the kid whose father was a gypsy cabbie and makes a point to apologize for casting the father in a bad light. He wanted the kid to know that his father was someone he could be proud of. The fact that it was that important to Danny makes me think that it took him back to his own childhood and by apologizing he may be giving us a glimpse of what others thought of his family and how it affected him.

Danny drove me mad in that ep ("The Dove Commission") with how rude and mean he was to that kid, but the fact that he apologized in the end shows that he really felt bad about the things he said and wanted to make amends. More than anyone else on the team, Danny does take cases personally, especially, like you point out, when they involve family. Danny always seems surprised and almost personally hurt when family members hurt each other, like in the Coney Island ep (I always forget the name of that one) back in season two when a guy poisoned his brother.

I hope that marriage and fatherhood will calm him down and give him the affirmation that he seems to need in order to leave his past and move forward. He's really a great guy with a lot of potential and in spite of his lack of confidence he's a warm and caring man. Like Rikki said, he's a sweet man. Lindsay is more than lucky to have him in her life.

I hope so, too, and that it will help him to have his own family. He really seems to need that sense of security and love.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

That first proposal--which started out with a question about mental illness in her family and other "romantic" stuff like that!-- was clearly not anything other than him trying to do the right thing.

But clearly one of the great Danny scenes we got. His face was absolutely childlike when he finally got around to asking her to marry him. I remember Anna mentioning in an article that she was thinking Lindsay should just say yes because he was being so adorable.

If anything, it was a half-hearted attempt. She gave him enough of a head start that I can't see her having caught up with him. She spoke with Mac, listened to Mac and then possibly went off after Danny, knowing full well she'd never catch up with him. I think her mentality in that scene was that she'd deal with it later... but obviously later never came.

I know we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one eventually:lol:. But...if that was her mentality, then why have her in that scene in the first place? Lindsay has always asked about someone's well-being from a distance and depended on others to make the personal contact. Her finding out in the lab and deciding to check on him later or deal with the situation later would have been more in character with what we have seen of her ability to reach out to others than her coming to the morgue as soon as she heard.

Yeah, that's what I meant--Flack never mentioned to Danny that she was the one who told him what was going on. Again, to me it's a small sign that Flack isn't her biggest fan, at least when it it comes to her relationship with Danny. There's a charge of discomfort between them when they collaborate when Danny's in danger. I sensed it in "Snow Day" (he didn't look at her when he told her about Danny not sounding good, the EMS thing at the end--the look on Flack's face as she dragged Danny off was not a happy or content one) and saw it here, too--again, he didn't look at her for much of the time when they were in the lab recovering the phone number, and he never once said to Danny, "Lindsay sent me after you because she was worried"--even if it could have been a helpful way to get Danny's attention and show him just how many people are worried about him. So yeah...I don't think Danny knew Lindsay had alerted/helped Flack, so he didn't know that she made that effort.

Wow. And I thought Flack was a good guy. Now he just looks jealous and petty. I can see where he may not have thought that Danny and Lindsay made the best couple, but him not letting Danny know that Lindsay was concerned just seems cold and cruel to me.

I think he was totally taken aback. Danny saw Rikki as the one in need, and as strange as it sounds, I don't think he thought what he was doing with Rikki had anything to do with Lindsay.

Glad you said this because the way he answered the phone when Lindsay called has bugged me forever. It was as if he knew it was her. His tone was personal and intimate, not at all "oh shit I'm caught" or anything remotely like it. Maybe it was leftover from his night with Rikki. I don't know. But while talking to Lindsay you wouldn't even think that Rikki was in the apartment, let alone in his bed all night. It's as if the two situations existed in parallel universes and had no connection.

Anyone with his head on straight would, but this is Danny. Lindsay's just going to get tired of him eventually, and she got what she wanted from him. What he was doing with Rikki wasn't about love or lust--he was letting someone that he believed he has wronged greatly use him to feel better. And letting her use him made him feel better, because he was doing something to ease her pain.

Totally agree. More of his giving away a piece of himself as a solution to someone else's pain.

I think he was totally stunned by Lindsay's pronouncement, which is why it took him a while to come up with something to say to her. And when he did, it wasn't "I love you" or even really, "I made a huge mistake" but "I miss you, how can I fix this?" Danny really is an interesting case, that's for sure.

Needy, needy needy! But yeah, no commitment, no admission, just please be there for me again like we're gonna just ignore the past however many weeks. I can see that.

I think we're supposed to think that seeing Danny was what gave her the strength to push through her testimony, but at the same time, she got back on that stand on her own, before he showed up. I'd like to think that she found her strength on her own rather than that it was dependent on Danny showing up. Him being there hardened her resolve and made it easier, but if she'd really not been able to handle it, I think she wouldn't have gotten back on that stand.

Good point. I always saw her as determined to get through it on her own, perhaps as a way to put it all behind her once and for all and that would have been such a bonus for the character to do that. What a sense of accomplishment and self empowerment. However, I think his heart was in the right place by wanting to support her.

Danny has lost and/or seen a lot of people he cared about hurt, and in quick succession at the end of season two. Louie in a coma, Aiden murdered, Flack nearly killed in a bombing--and all within the space of a handful of episodes. I've always kind of seen that as leading up to the way he clung to Lindsay in season three, and perhaps part of the reason I find her behavior towards him so mean-spirited. Danny was trying to help/get close to someone he thought seemed interested in him and maybe even cared about him, and she repeatedly shut him down. It also makes me think he withdrew from her in season four because after the way she treated him in season three, he really didn't think she cared about him. He's massively insecure, but even a secure guy might have come to a similar conclusion.

This is an interesting point. In re-watching NWILL the other day I realized that his fear for her taking Beth's place to make the jewerly drop had as much to do with him possibly losing another partner as it may have had to do with his romantic feelings for Lindsay.

I hope one day we get to see it, because I have a feeling whatever it is will kind of help to explain the reason he is the way he is. There seems like there's something big there, maybe so big that the writers haven't yet wanted to tackle it because of how significant it will be. It's got to be something that really pays off and makes the audience go, "Ah ha! So that's what's made Danny who he is."

I do too.

I don't see Danny being a screw up as a kid, though I guess it's possible. I think Louie was the bad boy, and Danny probably looked up to him but didn't rebel in the same way. I think the key to Danny's damage lies with his father, or maybe some other male relative. I still think it probably comes back to some sort of abuse in his childhood.

Or neglect or just being invisible. The screw up thing was not meant as him intentionally doing bad things. Just being who he is, like he is now. I don't see his behavior and way of coping with things now as being a new thing. It's something that would have started many years ago. As much trouble as he has gotten himelf into now as an adult can you imagine how it must have been for him as a teenager. He didn't think twice about getting in Sonny's face when seeing the kid being beaten. He just waded right in trying to defend the kid. That's the kind of messes I am talking about.

 

[Top41]

I know the case in Heroes would've been the same as in Run Silent - Flack and Mac having more of a claim to provide emotional support than Lindsay, therefore it's not surprising that we didn't see Lindsay offer this support. But Lindsay's entire response to Danny in all those episodes seemed really significant, so I can't think it's just a coincidence that she didn't offer much support. I mean, Stella didn't have a great claim on Danny either, but she still asked Flack how he was holding up when his badge was taken away, even though she didn't even see Danny for the rest of the episode. She went out of her way to check on Danny. Lindsay asked Danny if he was okay - because he was literally right in front of her, and she'd been brought to the hospital by Mac to process Louie's clothes. I know she cared about him, but I honestly can't say she would've otherwise gone out of her way to check on him.

I do think she already found herself caring deeply about Danny, and feeling kind of protective of his vulnerability. That Aiden-line to Stella may have just been her fishing for dirt on Aiden/Danny, but I always thought that it came from the same place of protectiveness that led her to give Danny the DNA results in Run Silent. She seemed genuinely sad when she was talking about how Danny talked about Aiden, like she was sad for him. But I don't think it stopped her from holding him at a distance.

Maybe I'm getting hung up on the "holding him at a distance" phrase. I guess I don't see her doing that. Observing cautiously from a distance at times, but I do see her going out of her way to spend time with him or get to know him and even help him in RSRD, and to me that doesn't really say she's holding him at a distance. I do think it's interesting that she kind brings him up with other people (Sid in "Super Men," Stella in "Heroes," etc.) which makes me think she was trying to find out about him behind the scenes, but that also speaks to a crush. When you like a guy, you want to talk about him.

Yes! There is so much good stuff in the S4 DVD interviews, they're at least as good as the episodes.

I really need to watch these!

But clearly one of the great Danny scenes we got. His face was absolutely childlike when he finally got around to asking her to marry him. I remember Anna mentioning in an article that she was thinking Lindsay should just say yes because he was being so adorable.

It was cute in a childlike way. Who starts out a proposal by asking about the history of mental illness in the woman's family? :lol: :wtf:

I know we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one eventually:lol:. But...if that was her mentality, then why have her in that scene in the first place? Lindsay has always asked about someone's well-being from a distance and depended on others to make the personal contact. Her finding out in the lab and deciding to check on him later or deal with the situation later would have been more in character with what we have seen of her ability to reach out to others than her coming to the morgue as soon as she heard.

We can definitely agree to disagree. :lol: I do think she made an effort by coming to the morgue, but when he walked out the minute she stepped into the room--which I think was coincidence since he really was already on his way out--she fell back on it just being something she's not comfortable with. She bonded with Mac for a moment on that, but I just can't help but fall back on that we never got a scene or even a single reference to her trying to reach out to him. She went off in the same direction he did, but a good several minutes after he left. To me, that says she probably left it until later ...but never found the right time/the courage to really bring it up with him.

Wow. And I thought Flack was a good guy. Now he just looks jealous and petty. I can see where he may not have thought that Danny and Lindsay made the best couple, but him not letting Danny know that Lindsay was concerned just seems cold and cruel to me.

I don't think Flack is jealous or petty--maybe not bringing it up to Danny wasn't intentional. He was pretty worried about Danny, and as we know whenever Danny's in trouble, Flack kind of gets tunnel vision. Still, watching him and Lindsay work together felt less like watching friends than it did watching a slightly uneasy coming together of two people that aren't really all that close. What bonded them was that they both care about Danny. But I still think it's possible--even likely--that Danny never knew that Lindsay had a part in it.

Glad you said this because the way he answered the phone when Lindsay called has bugged me forever. It was as if he knew it was her. His tone was personal and intimate, not at all "oh shit I'm caught" or anything remotely like it. Maybe it was leftover from his night with Rikki. I don't know. But while talking to Lindsay you wouldn't even think that Rikki was in the apartment, let alone in his bed all night. It's as if the two situations existed in parallel universes and had no connection.

Exactly--that's how I've always seen it for him, which is pretty messed up. I mean, in what universe would he not expect Lindsay to be upset about him sleeping with someone else, even if in his mind they were over? I think Danny has some kind of messed up views about sex and what it means given the way he seems to use it/respond to people's desire for him rather than his own desires. It would be one thing if he was sleeping around saying, "Oh, I'm not committed to anyone, I can do this," but that wasn't the vibe I got. It was more like, "Sex will help this situation, so that's what I'm going to do." It didn't even cross his mind that Lindsay would be upset, which says so much to me about his mentality.

Totally agree. More of his giving away a piece of himself as a solution to someone else's pain.

Exactly!

Good point. I always saw her as determined to get through it on her own, perhaps as a way to put it all behind her once and for all and that would have been such a bonus for the character to do that. What a sense of accomplishment and self empowerment. However, I think his heart was in the right place by wanting to support her.

I do, too. It was almost like he couldn't not go... it was sweet, but it's almost like what he did for Rikki, going too far to help someone he cares about, giving too much of himself. He was so exhausted Mac sent him home--going to Montana was the last thing he should have been doing/worrying about.

This is an interesting point. In re-watching NWILL the other day I realized that his fear for her taking Beth's place to make the jewerly drop had as much to do with him possibly losing another partner as it may have had to do with his romantic feelings for Lindsay.

Yeah, I just think at the beginning of season three, Danny was pretty broken down. He'd faced so much loss and hurt that the idea of any more really shook him up.

Or neglect or just being invisible. The screw up thing was not meant as him intentionally doing bad things. Just being who he is, like he is now. I don't see his behavior and way of coping with things now as being a new thing. It's something that would have started many years ago. As much trouble as he has gotten himelf into now as an adult can you imagine how it must have been for him as a teenager. He didn't think twice about getting in Sonny's face when seeing the kid being beaten. He just waded right in trying to defend the kid. That's the kind of messes I am talking about.

I guess because of how messed up Danny is I see it as being something more than neglect, although I do think you have a good point about that factoring in to the way he seeks attention/is desperate to help. The way he looks at sex/responds to other people's desire suggests some sort of deeper abuse to me. There was stuff in the first season, too--him shrinking away from Mac in "Crime and Misdemeanor" when Mac got mad, his reaction to the pedophile in "ReCycling" (the way he literally put himself in front of the guy and asked, "What, am I too old for you?"--that suggest a more serious form of abuse than just neglect or even emotional abuse. Danny is nothing if not an interesting case study!

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by Top41:
Yeah, that's what I meant--Flack never mentioned to Danny that she was the one who told him what was going on. Again, to me it's a small sign that Flack isn't her biggest fan, at least when it it comes to her relationship with Danny. There's a charge of discomfort between them when they collaborate when Danny's in danger. I sensed it in "Snow Day" (he didn't look at her when he told her about Danny not sounding good, the EMS thing at the end--the look on Flack's face as she dragged Danny off was not a happy or content one) and saw it here, too--again, he didn't look at her for much of the time when they were in the lab recovering the phone number, and he never once said to Danny, "Lindsay sent me after you because she was worried"--even if it could have been a helpful way to get Danny's attention and show him just how many people are worried about him. So yeah...I don't think Danny knew Lindsay had alerted/helped Flack, so he didn't know that she made that effort.

Sorry, lol, I know I'm taking this outside the D/L argument, but I'm a little iffy on the Flack thing...I've always kind of taken it as a given that Flack would've told Danny that Lindsay was the one who sent him, or at least told him that she was worried, even though we didn't see it onscreen. Just because, well, rivalry or not, not telling Danny is shoddy behaviour (to both Danny and Lindsay) in a way I can't really see matching with Flack aka Integrity Man's character. At the very least, he's always seemed to respect the fact that they were together/that she cares about Danny. I don't know how discomforted their collaboration was - I don't remember the non-looks, but I do remember that Lindsay called him "Don" when she first tracked him down, and that he seemed to know her phone number off by heart (when he dialled it after finding the bail- phone number).

Yeah, I can definitely see that--at the same time, if it's all about Danny caring for her and not about her caring for him, I think it's borderline abusive. Lindsay is a taker--she really doesn't give a lot back. And the problem with being in an adult relationship is that it's about reciprocity... you have be able to care for someone as well as have that person care about you. That's why the relationship fell apart after Ruben's death--because Lindsay didn't know how to turn around and give Danny what he'd given her in season three.

I'm still not convinced the relationship falling apart wasn't at least partly because Danny wouldn't go to her, or even run with the little-bit that she did give him. [I mean, behind-the-scenes support aside, the two minor times we saw her reach out to him directly - going to him in the morgue (he was fine talking to Mac, but ran the moment Lindsay entered) and the offer to buy lunch in Right Next Door - he blew her off.] But yeah, I definitely agree that Lindsay had no idea how to do what Danny did in season 3. For her, the taking seems to be much more important than the giving, not good for an adult relationship, although it does at the same time look as though she at least tries giving. Even if she doesn't have the first clue how to do it successfully.

Thinking back on the beginning of season four, Lindsay did seem happier then. But I also thought she seemed pretty happy in the first part of season two when she was starting out her new job and getting to know NYC. I don't think her happiness is entirely dependent on being loved. It's pretty natural for someone to get happier and more open when they're in a relationship with someone they've had a crush on for a while.

I don't know, I think I'd call Season2!Lindsay "perky" rather than "happy" - there was kind of a hardness to her happiness in that season. I could totally see how Danny would've found her stand-offish, uptight, and competitive (though being fair, he wasn't much better to her). Whereas in S4 she just seemed much looser. I always found it significant how utterly entertained Stella and Hawkes seemed by her in those episodes, and how it was the only time we ever saw Stella spill personal info to her (about Drew) before she spilled it to even Mac. I understand what you mean about the happiness of being in a relationship with a long-time crush, but we rarely see Lindsay truly "happy" to begin with, so it's weird that the crush-thing would be what does it for her.

Yeah...but that's external. She needs to be happy with herself before she's going to be any good in a relationship anyway. If she's just going to put her walls up when the going gets tough, she's never going to find a fulfilling relationship. I'm sure part of the problem now is that she knows on some level Danny is with her because of the baby.

Definitely. Yeah, the relationship-thing is kind of external, but I'm otherwise at a loss to see how she'll get to that "happy-with-herself" point in TVland (as opposed to real life, where she would be in therapy).

I think we're supposed to think that seeing Danny was what gave her the strength to push through her testimony, but at the same time, she got back on that stand on her own, before he showed up. I'd like to think that she found her strength on her own rather than that it was dependent on Danny showing up. Him being there hardened her resolve and made it easier, but if she'd really not been able to handle it, I think she wouldn't have gotten back on that stand.

I don't know if it was strength that made her get back on the stand so much as it was determination. Maybe a combination of both. I definitely think it was her own resolve to face the trial that made her get back on the stand. But I also think she just didn't let herself believe for a moment that she wouldn't be able to handle it - even if it later turned out that she couldn't. It seems to fit with what we've seen of her: her peevishness in Manhattan Manhunt read a lot to me like she was determined to be able to handle the scene, and was angry that Mac wouldn't give her the chance to handle it; even though later, more minor scenes were enough to make her run. And in LWFM, where she was the one who started a friendly-ish conversation with Danny (he actually seemed surprised for a moment that she was talking to him), like she was determined to be able to handle it. And then she ran when it suddenly turned out that she couldn't handle it.

Lindsay wouldn't have the support system Danny does, though I think if something happened the team would rally around her, too. She's one of them, a member of the family, even if she's not the beloved little wreck Danny is. The thing about Danny is that his emotional nature and passion endears him to everyone. I think everyone on the team genuinely loves Danny--he's the heart of the team. I think they care about Lindsay, too, and would more if she let them in. I just don't see her as someone who would shatter, whereas Danny is just one more tragedy away from breaking.

Oh, I do agree that the team would rally around her; I just think it would be easier for them to rally around Danny, whereas with Lindsay they might not perceive the problem as easily, and so wouldn't be able to tell if she broke. Danny may be more likely to break. But his endearing-ness is exactly why, interpersonally, right now, he's in a better place than Lindsay. Because I agree with what you said about Danny being the heart of the team. And people can always tell with Danny when he's in pain, and are always aware of the cause (Aiden, Ruben, Louie, the On the Job shooting etc.). It's always right there on the page with him, it's what makes him so loveable, and in general easier to deal with. It's what makes people seem willing to drop everything and sacrifice all kinds of things for him (Lindsay and Flack their jobs and integrity, to some extent; Mac seems to work overtime every time Danny's involved in a crisis, and even Aiden in S1 was willing to go to extra lengths to help him). No one even knew what Lindsay's damage was in S3 until she outright told them; they were worried, yeah, but because they didn't know where the behaviour was coming from they didn't seem as concerned.

True, though I think Danny will always put in the effort. He does care about her, and who knows--maybe if he ever sorts his many, many issues out, he can be healthy enough to figure out what he wants, and if he does indeed love Lindsay.

I'm iffy on this - partly because I'm trying to imagine a Danny with his issues sorted out, and I really can't. :lol: I agree he cares about her, as a friend at the very least - I just think that effort to care as a friend would show better without his creating the whole illusion of love and marriage. No matter how badly Lindsay wants to buy into it, I think it's at least partly the reason she doesn't seem to trust him as much.

Danny is actually terribly unfunny--one of the cutest things about the character is that where Flack is naturally funny, Danny's jokes are just usually bad/lame. Even Lindsay picked up on it in "Stuck on You." I don't remember the joke, but if it really was funny, Danny could have totally missed it.

Oh, I don't know if I agree with this at all :lol: - Danny is the one character on the show who never fails to make me laugh, although I'll admit his funnier moments probably aren't the ones where he's trying to be funny. His jokes usually seem to make the other characters laugh. I'll agree his lamer ones seem to come out around Lindsay (probably what she was picking up on in Stuck on You), but even she laughs at those. And then he and Flack usually seem to laugh at the same kind of jokes (at least, when they're interrogating suspects together).

Danny has lost and/or seen a lot of people he cared about hurt, and in quick succession at the end of season two. Louie in a coma, Aiden murdered, Flack nearly killed in a bombing--and all within the space of a handful of episodes. I've always kind of seen that as leading up to the way he clung to Lindsay in season three, and perhaps part of the reason I find her behavior towards him so mean-spirited. Danny was trying to help/get close to someone he thought seemed interested in him and maybe even cared about him, and she repeatedly shut him down. It also makes me think he withdrew from her in season four because after the way she treated him in season three, he really didn't think she cared about him. He's massively insecure, but even a secure guy might have come to a similar conclusion.

That's an interesting point, one I definitely hadn't considered before. But wow, talk about picking the wrong person to cling to (especially given that Danny's sudden clinginess seems to be at least part of the reason Lindsay pushed him away that hard). It makes a lot of sense...though I'm unsure about the season-four withdrawal explanation. I can see how a more secure guy would come to the conclusion that Lindsay didn't really care, but I think said more-secure-guy would've therefore stopped things long before they hit the pool table. And even given Danny's insecurities, it just seemed weird that if he already wondered about Lindsay's motives, he'd not only go through the night-before-Snow Day with her, but also take her shift, make her breakfast, call out to her when she was running to him in the truck (which seemed a fair indication that she cared, and that he at least suspected it) -- and then withdraw. The flirting leading up to Snow Day may well have been the norm for them, but the things he did in Snow Day really made it seem like he at least wanted her to care about him.

I hope one day we get to see it, because I have a feeling whatever it is will kind of help to explain the reason he is the way he is. There seems like there's something big there, maybe so big that the writers haven't yet wanted to tackle it because of how significant it will be. It's got to be something that really pays off and makes the audience go, "Ah ha! So that's what's made Danny who he is."

Crossing my fingers that it's not as over-the-top as what they did with Lindsay's past, but I would really want to see this. Especially in light of the fact that Danny now has Lucy, and that might factor into how he'd respond if something big about his past does come to light. But actually, on this topic...

Danny drove me mad in that ep ("The Dove Commission") with how rude and mean he was to that kid, but the fact that he apologized in the end shows that he really felt bad about the things he said and wanted to make amends. More than anyone else on the team, Danny does take cases personally, especially, like you point out, when they involve family. Danny always seems surprised and almost personally hurt when family members hurt each other, like in the Coney Island ep (I always forget the name of that one) back in season two when a guy poisoned his brother.

I'm trying to remember the main times Danny has taken cases personally and emotionally (when they don't involve someone he knows); and I definitely agree about the family thing, but I think it might go deeper. In some ways, he reminds me a little of Nick from CSI because he tends to freak out a little on cases where someone is hurt by another someone they should've been able to trust (I'm remembering the Buzzkill episode, how upset he was when he found out the boyfriend was part of the crime, and that S1 episode where he and Stella were interviewing that male pedophile - Stella seemed disgusted to, but Danny actively seemed to goad and hate the guy, so I'm wondering how that plays into things).

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake:
Wow. And I thought Flack was a good guy. Now he just looks jealous and petty. I can see where he may not have thought that Danny and Lindsay made the best couple, but him not letting Danny know that Lindsay was concerned just seems cold and cruel to me.

See, Flack is a good guy, and this is why I can't see him not having told Danny. He's like the moral compass of the team. That's why it was so significant to see him shoot that guy at the end of Pay Up. Hiding the fact that Lindsay was worried goes beyond the pettiness required for a rivalry, if they are rivals (especially since, if the knowledge would've helped Danny, I really can't see Flack hiding it - if nothing else, he always seems to have Danny's best interests at heart), and I think we have to make some concessions regarding what happens offscreen. Usually it's hard to make the argument (for books/movies/TV shows/whatever) that something happened if the viewers/readers didn't see it happen, but for the most part, these CSI shows are about their jobs. Personal life doesn't usually intermingle with job-life, so if we miss a few important things, it can't be that surprising.