Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[racefh853629]

Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

I'm not saying anything new here, but for me to view Danny sympathetically I also have to do the same for Lindsay. I agree that Danny is insecure but so is Lindsay in her own way, they just exibit it differently. The last time I said this, someone started up a 'who's the more messed up' thread, so I know a lot of people don't agree with me. But, I really do see them as messed up as each other in a lot of ways. I feel sympathy and frustration with them both, in relatively equal measures.

:alienblush: Sorry.

I agree with you, though. They're both messed up in their own ways, and the degree to which they are messed up is about equal.

I do think Lindsay would weigh the benefits to having Danny be in Lucy's life if they weren't together and if Danny hadn't gone the extra step to try and prove himself. And I also can't say I don't agree with her. There are sometimes when Danny doesn't seem like he can support himself, let alone a girlfriend or a child.

Yet, at the same time, a father should be allowed to see their own kid, no matter how screwed up he is with his own life. And as screwed up as Danny is, he still functions relatively well. His relationships aren't the most healthy, but he does okay, and Lindsay's well aware of that. That would make her weigh the benefits and decide then what's best for the child.

I think her saying, "I know you," was her way of acknowledging that fact- that he's not always the best when it comes to relationships. I think she was trying to give him an out, a way of saying, "Look, you're not obligated here," but it came out a little differently than it should've.

As for Danny's, "I'll marry you" comments, I always felt those were more banter and jokes than serious crush moments. Danny loves to make comments about marriage as if he doesn't take it seriously, and granted yes, they are married now. But I also feel that any time Danny brought up marriage before this season, he wasn't serious about it.

I'll stop rambling now... :lol:

 

[JellyBelly]

I guess I definitely have more sympathy for Danny perhaps because I see his behavior as a reaction to hers. He was treating her great and she stepped all over him. Then she decided to be nice to him and he's supposed to be on board. And then when his time of need comes, she's not around--until she's suddenly pissed that he shut her out when she never reached out to him in the first place. That's why I have trouble sympathizing with her.

While she did step all over him it was clear to me at the time that she was in pain, and while that doesn't excuse her behaviour it was enough for me to hold judgement until it played out. I also believed that she thought she was doing the best for him in s4. I'm still not convinced she didn't reach out to him on some level, it certainly seemed to me that she headed after him following her 'I'm not good at this' conversation with Mac. I appreciate that we didn't see any overt attempt on her part though other than that initial attempt when he brushed her off (understandably). Danny needs someone to be overt and in his face like Flack was. Yet, I can also see how Lindsay would think giving him his space might be for the best as that's how she operates. It really was just one big mess between them.

Though I think Danny's more damaged--and can't wait to find out just what it is in his past--I do agree that Lindsay is more guarded. Danny's insecurity bleeds out all over the place, but he has friends and people that care about him, and in many ways he's the one character everyone seems to have an emotional investment in/to. Lindsay on the other hand, really doesn't have ties with anyone save for Danny.

And that there is another reason why I can sympathise with Lindsay. She really does seem to isolate herself in an attempt to remain guarded. That can't be a happy place.

She initiated it and he went along with it, which seems to be the typical MO for Danny. After the way she treated him in season three, Danny had no reason to think Lindsay cared about what he wanted. When she wanted him, she went for it and when she didn't, she pushed him away. From that standpoint, it's not hard for me to see why he would be afraid to invest in such a relationship.

I guess I didn't really see her as going for it initially. It seemed like a mutual thing so I see it a little differently. Sure she made it clear she liked him, but who hasn't done that and then backed off for whatever reason? She only truly 'went for it' after the trial and as I said before I can understand why she felt free to give the relationship her all. Anna herself described it really well in terms of Lindsay being 'peppy' again. That's how she came across to me and I think that clouded any realisation that Danny may not have been as invested. While I agree that the 'going along with it' is typical Danny, that doesn't make it right - another reason why I hold them equally responsible for the mess they made of things.

Hey! How'd I end up in this thread? Clever!!

I figured this conversation was in depth enough and also OT enough for the spoiler thread, lol, to warrant its own thread. So I tried something new with the system...and it worked! Pretty cool.

Cool for you, slightly weird for me though.

I'm not saying anything new here, but for me to view Danny sympathetically I also have to do the same for Lindsay. I agree that Danny is insecure but so is Lindsay in her own way, they just exibit it differently. The last time I said this, someone started up a 'who's the more messed up' thread, so I know a lot of people don't agree with me. But, I really do see them as messed up as each other in a lot of ways. I feel sympathy and frustration with them both, in relatively equal measures.

:alienblush: Sorry.

It took me a while to figure out you were the original thread starter, hence the apology. No need though, it was a great discussion. Although isn't it strange that the second time I mention the messed up debate Top goes and starts a second thread? :lol:

I do think Lindsay would weigh the benefits to having Danny be in Lucy's life if they weren't together and if Danny hadn't gone the extra step to try and prove himself. And I also can't say I don't agree with her. There are sometimes when Danny doesn't seem like he can support himself, let alone a girlfriend or a child.

And I wouldn't blame her for that at all. I think any mother would do the same if they had concerns about the stability of the father, it's responsible parenting imo. Not that I think that would be relevant in this case as I think it was pretty clear to us as viewers that Danny would step up to the plate. It seems to me that while they were together enough to conceive a child there was still no commitment between them and they clearly hadn't addressed any of their issues (communication being the biggest issue). That in itself seemed a little weird to me in that most couples who break up and get back together will have talked about why things didn't work the first time around.

I think her saying, "I know you," was her way of acknowledging that fact- that he's not always the best when it comes to relationships. I think she was trying to give him an out, a way of saying, "Look, you're not obligated here," but it came out a little differently than it should've.

That's pretty much how I saw it also. But, with the added issue of Lindsay likely realising that they were nowhere near stable ground in their relationship and while that was fine for her and Danny, bringing a child into that situation isn't the best of environments. She could have handled the conversation a lot better but her MO is to avoid confrontation and walk away if things are too difficult.

 

[racefh853629]

It took me a while to figure out you were the original thread starter, hence the apology. No need though, it was a great discussion. Although isn't it strange that the second time I mention the messed up debate Top goes and starts a second thread? :lol:

:lol: That's because it makes for a very good discussion topic.

I do think Lindsay would weigh the benefits to having Danny be in Lucy's life if they weren't together and if Danny hadn't gone the extra step to try and prove himself. And I also can't say I don't agree with her. There are sometimes when Danny doesn't seem like he can support himself, let alone a girlfriend or a child.

And I wouldn't blame her for that at all. I think any mother would do the same if they had concerns about the stability of the father, it's responsible parenting imo. Not that I think that would be relevant in this case as I think it was pretty clear to us as viewers that Danny would step up to the plate. It seems to me that while they were together enough to conceive a child there was still no commitment between them and they clearly hadn't addressed any of their issues (communication being the biggest issue). That in itself seemed a little weird to me in that most couples who break up and get back together will have talked about why things didn't work the first time around.

I think we all know that Danny would step up to the plate, but I'm not sure that Lindsay felt the same. And I can't say that I blame her, because they weren't exactly together at the time, maybe, I don't know.

I think that's my major problem here, is that there wasn't ever any indication of what their relationship status was or wasn't early in S5. It was just like they were coworkers and nothing else. So for me, the pregnancy seemed out of the blue.

Had they decided to work things out? Were they simply having sex casually? What exactly were they when Lindsay got pregnant?

Those questions just bother me about this.

I think her saying, "I know you," was her way of acknowledging that fact- that he's not always the best when it comes to relationships. I think she was trying to give him an out, a way of saying, "Look, you're not obligated here," but it came out a little differently than it should've.

That's pretty much how I saw it also. But, with the added issue of Lindsay likely realising that they were nowhere near stable ground in their relationship and while that was fine for her and Danny, bringing a child into that situation isn't the best of environments. She could have handled the conversation a lot better but her MO is to avoid confrontation and walk away if things are too difficult.

Also true. And perhaps that has something to do with Lindsay's past (wouldn't it be interesting if they could go into that?), but I don't know. I think that's a contributing factor into the unhealthy relationship she has with Danny. As much as he isn't really capable of loving, she's not really capable of handling the tough, emotional conversations.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

Holy crap! I leave for dinner and come back to this! For a minute there I felt like I'd gone through a wormhole or something.

Great idea to put this on a thread by itself as it had completely overtaken the spoiler thread. Now I just have to read through everything and sort out my thoughts before trying to jump back in.

 

[Top41]

I do think Lindsay would weigh the benefits to having Danny be in Lucy's life if they weren't together and if Danny hadn't gone the extra step to try and prove himself. And I also can't say I don't agree with her. There are sometimes when Danny doesn't seem like he can support himself, let alone a girlfriend or a child.

Danny has never had money issues or responsibility issues that we'd seen to that point. Emotional issues, yes, but not anything that has ever made him seem like he'd be irresponsible.

Yet, at the same time, a father should be allowed to see their own kid, no matter how screwed up he is with his own life. And as screwed up as Danny is, he still functions relatively well. His relationships aren't the most healthy, but he does okay, and Lindsay's well aware of that. That would make her weigh the benefits and decide then what's best for the child.

Still, it's his child, too. That initial way she avoided telling him suggests that she was considering dealing with the situation without him having any say or involvement in the baby.

I think her saying, "I know you," was her way of acknowledging that fact- that he's not always the best when it comes to relationships. I think she was trying to give him an out, a way of saying, "Look, you're not obligated here," but it came out a little differently than it should've.

Did she say she didn't expect anything? That's one way of saying that--a bit of a put-down, but still an acceptable thing to say. The "I know you" felt like a dig to me.

As for Danny's, "I'll marry you" comments, I always felt those were more banter and jokes than serious crush moments. Danny loves to make comments about marriage as if he doesn't take it seriously, and granted yes, they are married now. But I also feel that any time Danny brought up marriage before this season, he wasn't serious about it.

Yeah, I never took that seriously, either, or as a sign of any feelings for her one way or another.

While she did step all over him it was clear to me at the time that she was in pain, and while that doesn't excuse her behaviour it was enough for me to hold judgement until it played out.

But going through a bad time isn't really an excuse to treat someone badly. To shut them out, sure, or withdraw, but not to stand them up and manipulate them into taking tasks you don't feel up to. She would have come off as a lot more sympathetic had she leveled with him.

I also believed that she thought she was doing the best for him in s4. I'm still not convinced she didn't reach out to him on some level, it certainly seemed to me that she headed after him following her 'I'm not good at this' conversation with Mac.

If she did, she sure let him have a nice long head start. We never saw anything on screen, or even got a throwaway line from her about trying to reach out to him, so I really don't think she did.

I appreciate that we didn't see any overt attempt on her part though other than that initial attempt when he brushed her off (understandably).

I don't consider that a brush off so much as he was already heading out, having worked himself up into being pretty upset.

Danny needs someone to be overt and in his face like Flack was. Yet, I can also see how Lindsay would think giving him his space might be for the best as that's how she operates. It really was just one big mess between them.

Yeah, Flack definitely is good at intuiting what Danny needs and, in the case of "All in the Family," basically forcing it on Danny if the situation warrants it.

And that there is another reason why I can sympathise with Lindsay. She really does seem to isolate herself in an attempt to remain guarded. That can't be a happy place.

No, but she chooses it, so it's a little harder for me to feel bad for her given that it's a conscious, willing choice.

I guess I didn't really see her as going for it initially. It seemed like a mutual thing so I see it a little differently.

She asked him out to see Mac, bought him a drink, got him to help her with an experiment in exchange for more drinks, etc. It seems to me she was driving the show initially.

Sure she made it clear she liked him, but who hasn't done that and then backed off for whatever reason?

It happens, but it was the way she did it that was objectionable.

She only truly 'went for it' after the trial and as I said before I can understand why she felt free to give the relationship her all. Anna herself described it really well in terms of Lindsay being 'peppy' again. That's how she came across to me and I think that clouded any realisation that Danny may not have been as invested. While I agree that the 'going along with it' is typical Danny, that doesn't make it right - another reason why I hold them equally responsible for the mess they made of things.

At that point Danny was probably pretty confused, and understandably. He didn't know what she wanted and didn't know what he wanted. Going along with it wasn't malicious. Besides, I'm sure he would have felt like he'd look like an ass if he rejected her after all of that.

Cool for you, slightly weird for me though.

Just wait until CSI_Cupcake sees the thread she "started"! :lol: I might go back and see if I can move the other posts as well, provided they won't appear out of order. I'm a little afraid of that.

It took me a while to figure out you were the original thread starter, hence the apology. No need though, it was a great discussion. Although isn't it strange that the second time I mention the messed up debate Top goes and starts a second thread? :lol:

Yeah, I saw that and got inspired by the title for this debate! I didn't realize the thread was still kicking around somewhere.

I think her saying, "I know you," was her way of acknowledging that fact- that he's not always the best when it comes to relationships. I think she was trying to give him an out, a way of saying, "Look, you're not obligated here," but it came out a little differently than it should've.

That's pretty much how I saw it also. But, with the added issue of Lindsay likely realising that they were nowhere near stable ground in their relationship and while that was fine for her and Danny, bringing a child into that situation isn't the best of environments. She could have handled the conversation a lot better but her MO is to avoid confrontation and walk away if things are too difficult.

The problem that I had with Lindsay's attitude was that it conveyed the message that Danny was somehow at fault or undeserving. It takes two to tango--they were both irresponsible. She should have sat him down and talked to him like an adult. The avoiding confrontation thing is just juvenile.

 

[Maya316]

LOL, nice! I was feeling guilty about the spoiler-thread too, but I'm so going back to comb over this one once I'm done with this post :lol:

Originally posted by Top41:
I'd probably call it sad before creepy. I think he believes he's doing the right thing, trying to love her and be a family. You can tell he wants that, a happy family, very much.

Yeah, I know it's sad more than creepy. I just meant creepy in an "oh gosh, I'm watching a train wreck that I just can't stop and it doesn't seem to be stopping on its own" way... because story-wise, separate from Anna Belknap's pregnancy, I think the train-wreck of D/L just keeps coming because Danny just never lets it go. I think it would've ended way back in S3, and again in S4, if he hadn't kept pushing both times.

Which makes it very easy to see that (in this case, anyway) he very much wants happiness, the whole happy-family deal. I just ...well, find it sad I guess, because I think if he'd just cooled it for a minute, sat back and waited, he could totally have the whole deal. Maybe not Lindsay, but he could've had a strong friendship with Lindsay while still having Lucy. Once she knew he wanted to be involved, Lindsay put every effort into making things work successfully, even knowing he didn't feel the same way about her. After she turned him down in the Triangle, she promised him that she wasn't going anywhere. She was the one to hunt him down when she felt the baby start kicking. Friendwise, they were getting along great. She wasn't about to keep Lucy from him.

Same thing as in the end of S4. I've been thinking about what you said, that Danny only missed Lindsay as a friend - LWFM makes a little more sense if I look at it that way. But again, he'd basically let her down easy at the end of RND; but Lindsay was still being friendly, professionally, in LWFM. She seemed like she was trying to get over him, in a healthy-ish way that wouldn't leave her resenting him. If he hadn't pushed, he so would've had her back as a friend, eventually.

I don't know that he'd leave her. I don't really see him doing that, if for no other reason that it would probably kill him to lose his kid. I could see him getting distant again, though.

Yes, I didn't mean he'd actually leave, I meant he'd leave her emotionally - like he did before. Get distant.

I doubt he realizes that or has made that connection though.

Well, I can't believe he didn't know Lindsay was hurt by the end of RND. Maybe none of his other girlfriends outright said - like she did - that they loved him...but if he tended to distance himself in his other relationships, I can't imagine that those break-ups would've been much nicer.

I think it's the same thing as the "I'm mad at myself" line. It was designed to put him down and make him feel bad, probably as a defense mechanism. It was childish and cruel--she should have gone to him like an adult and given him some time to digest the news and make his own decision. So much of the reason Lindsay comes off as unlikable is things like this. Danny can be maddening, but at least you can see him trying to do the right thing.

Yeah, but look how well that "I'm mad at myself" line worked out for her. I don't think Lindsay was wasting time with pot-shots designed to hurt Danny when she said her "I know you" line, because there was a child at stake this time if he decided - again - that he wanted out. I get what you're saying about giving him time to make his own decision, but I think she was leaving him in the locker room to do just that. I didn't see it as her already making the decision for him - otherwise, she probably wouldn't have given him the ultrasound picture.

I do agree, though, that she should've gone to him and talked it out rationally, rather than leaving him to corner her. But that would've been so OOC.

It was reason enough for him not to turn to her. She wasn't reaching out to him when he had reason to expect her to be, so I think it's fair enough that he shied away from her. I get that--I'd probably do the same.

I'd see it as reason enough if she'd activey been giving off a signal that she didn't want to deal with him, but she did. She was uncomfortable with it - as were the other people on the team - but she did want to helip him, had he come to her. I saw the things like sending Flack after him, and covering for him during his shift, as indications that she wanted to do right by him, even if she wasn't good at it.

I really see Danny as equally culpable because we never saw a scene where Lindsay reached out to him - but we never saw a scene where Danny seemed to want her help, either. If he'd even made a comment to Lindsay like the one he made to Mac and (um, I have to find out if it was Angell or Adam in this scene), or the one he made to Flack, I'm really not buying that Lindsay wouldn't have run with it. I'd be a lot more sympathetic if he had, and she hadn't. He didn't seem to want to talk in the first place, and then even when he was just blowing off steam it's like he was blowing it off to everyone but her.

I don't know about that--he's been really supportive of Hawkes in various episodes, and of course with Lindsay in season three. Danny at least tried with Flack. He showed up at the hospital after hearing about Angell at least. I thought the wall punch was really stupid, but he was there, and the pat on the back later was nice. Danny does try, even if he's not very good at it. With Flack in particular, Flack is Danny's own pillar of strength, and usually puts up a stoic front no matter what. I don't think Flack ever looked at Danny as someone who would provide emotional support; to Flack, Danny is someone he takes care of. And I imagine Danny has gotten used to that dynamic in their relationship.

I did think about the Hawkes thing, although in the scenes I'm remembering it always seems to be like Danny asks if Hawkes is okay, and then Hawkes dumps on him with very little warning :lol: But Danny always handles it well, so I guess it's safe to say he's not as completely crippled with emotional things as Lindsay is.

But yeah, Danny tried with Flack by showing up - like Lindsay tried with him, by showing up at the morgue. Danny showed obvious signs of support, but when it came to dealing-with-emotional-things-support, I just noticed that Danny didn't quite know what to do. I do think that Flack doesn't expect Danny to be the emotional support in their dynamic, but I think there's a reason for that - he knows how damaged Danny is emotionally. And Danny knows first-hand how crippled Lindsay is emotionally, I think it'd be only fair that she would get similar consideration from him. Lindsay showed the same obvious support-signs - covering his shift, going to him once she'd heard about Ruben. But she didn't know what to do on the emotional side.

Yeah, entirely possible. She still could have given him a better explanation the next day.

True...I don't think she ever would have, though, because telling him about her past - that would've created an emotional tie with Danny. One that, back then, I don't think she had any intention of creating.

Yeah, but we're talking about the guy who thought it was a good idea to sleep with the mother of a child who's death he felt responsible for as a bandage. Danny's a survivor, and he knows how to use what he has to keep people happy with him. I think it's more sad than anything, but I can see how it feels a little cruel. I think it's mostly desperation--he doesn't want to lose his kid, and she seemed to not want him involved right off the bat.

Also true. I just wish he'd slow down and...wait, sometimes. I don't think there was ever a danger of him losing his kid. I do think Lindsay was biding her time until she told him (like she bided her time until she was able to talk to Danny personally again, at the end of S4)....she was just taking forever to do it.

Something like that, and I think at the formal party. They banter--it's something that's really fun to watch.

Yeah, for a long time, Flack/Stella was another one of my favourite ships :lol:

I guess I just don't ever see Flack going for her. Eddie said in one of his interviews that Flack would never have put up with the "Yes, no, yes, no, yes." I don't think Flack ever would have fallen for her. He's into women who are made of stronger stuff.

I don't see Flack falling for her either, not as she is now. I do think, however, that the yes-no-yes-no would, out of necessity, stop on Lindsay's end. If it ever did happen. *shrug* It's just shipping.

Not that moment, no. But I think Danny in danger eclipsed whatever rivalry there was between them.

As it usually does (All in the Family). And then when he's not in danger, they're usually making an extra effort to interact well with each for his sake. I'm just not seeing rivalry here. Especially given what (I think) Flack knew of Lindsay's behaviour in S3, I think he'd have every reason to show his resentment any chance he got.

Originally Posted by JellyBelly:
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Originally Posted by Maya316
See, the conversation in The Deep is when I first saw him as pulling away, and I'm not convinced that this was just because they were in the workplace. I mean, it's not like she was saying "I was so worried, you're so brave" -- she was actually approaching the subject in a very roundabout way that seemed perfectly appropriate for the workplace, so I found the brush-offs kind of unnecessarily harsh. Especially given that Lindsay almost never admits things like that, and he knows it.

I can see that. When I first watched the episode I believed it was just embarassment on Danny's part and him not wanting to be treated like the hero of the hour. But, Danny being hesitant or cautious and backing off a little fits in the context of the season as a whole. My problem with that though is that I don't want to see Danny as being an ass. I get that for those who think Lindsay's treated him badly, Danny's withdrawal is justified. While I agree that she treated him badly in S3 I did feel sympathy towards her, in the same way I felt sympathy towards Danny in S4 despite the fact he'd hurt her. I guess that because I sympathise with both of them I can't really get on board with the S3 Lindsay's a bitch view, or the S4 Danny's an ass view (which seem to be the two ends of the spectrum I've seen expressed in the fandom).

I just see them as being equally culpable in the mess that is their relationship, but I can't be that surprised that it is such a mess. I guess I sympathize with both of them, but I can see how they're both at fault, at the same time.

Here's the thread http://talk.csifiles.com/showthread.php?t=56861. You'll see the majority felt that Danny was more damaged. A view I strongly disagree with, I think his damage is apparent through his everyday self (if you look deep enough), whereas Lindsay desperately tries to hide hers.

Lol, totally found it :lol: Thanks! I don't know at this point who I can say is more damaged. I naturally seemed to think Lindsay before, because Danny has a lot of healthy relationships whereas Lindsay just has him. She doesn't seem able to reach out to people, in a way that Danny naturally seems to. But I can see how she'd come across as healthier, because I can't agree more with your view. Danny's pain shows very obviously when he's feeling it, whereas Lindsay's always hiding hers behind cheerful lab demonstrations.

Originally posted by Top41:
I always felt those comments were off. Though Sid being an older guy is more likely to pick up on Danny's feelings than Lindsay's, I'd guess. I'm surprised Stella never said anything to Lindsay when she was clearly digging for info about Danny and Aiden's relationship in "Heroes," though I guess it really wasn't the time.

Yeah, I've always wondered whether Stella would've picked up on that, had things not been so tense at the time. I definitely agree the comments were off, especially with the fairly-light flirtation they had going on. But you know, if Danny's comments were always that unsubtle, maybe it's not surprising that Sid picked up on them!

I guess I definitely have more sympathy for Danny perhaps because I see his behavior as a reaction to hers. He was treating her great and she stepped all over him. Then she decided to be nice to him and he's supposed to be on board. And then when his time of need comes, she's not around--until she's suddenly pissed that he shut her out when she never reached out to him in the first place. That's why I have trouble sympathizing with her.

I still see it more that he was treating her great because she stepped all over him - before, he was fine with things just taking the un-emotional turn that they were. And then he stops treating her great when she decides to be nice...his behaviour at the beginning of S4 just really makes it seem like he got bored. I could see him being wary and mistrustful of her after the trial, if he wasn't flirting with her all over the place in the next few episodes, or if he'd started pulling away before they hit the pool table. I don't know how convincing it is that it's only after they hit the relationship-phase that he decided to back off.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Top41
She should have told him straight up about her past so he could have understood where she was coming from. It's hard for me to feel bad for her or understand her confusion about him backing off after the way she treated him for most of season three.

And I'd agree with that if Danny hadn't started a 'relationship' with her. The fact he started something and then backed off, while I understand it and don't entirely blame him, it does bring out my sympathies for Lindsay.
She initiated it and he went along with it, which seems to be the typical MO for Danny. After the way she treated him in season three, Danny had no reason to think Lindsay cared about what he wanted. When she wanted him, she went for it and when she didn't, she pushed him away. From that standpoint, it's not hard for me to see why he would be afraid to invest in such a relationship.

I could understand it from that standpoint if it hadn't seemed, from Snow Day and in the episodes leading up to Snow Day, like he was more than prepared to invest in such a relationship. I agree that Lindsay initiated things in Snow Day, and probably the relationship to - I do think Danny just went with the flow. But I'm not just talking about his showing up in Montana, I'm thinking more about his behaviour in the episodes after that - I can really see how Lindsay would've thought he might want an emotional relationship. At that point, I think he did want an emotional relationship, though he was taking his cue from her. It wasn't until S4 that he started to back off. I can't see her having started anything if it didn't look like he was interested in anything. Even in S2, she made her crush obvious, but I don't think it would've lasted if he hadn't reciprocated.

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by racefh853629:
As for Danny's, "I'll marry you" comments, I always felt those were more banter and jokes than serious crush moments. Danny loves to make comments about marriage as if he doesn't take it seriously, and granted yes, they are married now. But I also feel that any time Danny brought up marriage before this season, he wasn't serious about it.

Hahaha, yeah he definitely wasn't serious then :lol: Problem is, he's not serious now, either, not in any capacity unrelated to Lucy (which really isn't a good enough reason to get married). So still crossing my fingers for divorce...

Originally Posted by JellyBelly:
And that there is another reason why I can sympathise with Lindsay. She really does seem to isolate herself in an attempt to remain guarded. That can't be a happy place.

Exactly! I love her for it, because it makes her that much more interesting. But the thing about Danny is that people can tell right off the bat when he's not in a happy place, and have the emotional ties to help him. Whereas Lindsay, while seeming to be in an unhappy place 90 % of the time, always does everything to make it appear like she's not. Even when people reach out to her (Stella, Mac, etc), she refuses to reach back, let alone to reciprocate. It's like she's behind this wall that's impossible to break down.

Originally Posted by Top41:
Still, it's his child, too. That initial way she avoided telling him suggests that she was considering dealing with the situation without him having any say or involvement in the baby.

This wouldn't have been possible - she would've started showing eventually - and I think Lindsay knew it. I wasn't the least bit surprised when she said she'd known for six weeks already without telling Danny - it was in keeping with what she did at the end of S4; building up defences until she was ready to talk to him on a personal level. Running/hiding until she's built herself up enough to be ready to talk - it's Lindsay's MO as much as responding-to-interest is Danny's.

Oh gosh, I know I missed so much - but sorry if I double-posted again.

ETA: I really wanted to add this extra bit:

Originally Posted by Top41:

And that there is another reason why I can sympathise with Lindsay. She really does seem to isolate herself in an attempt to remain guarded. That can't be a happy place.

No, but she chooses it, so it's a little harder for me to feel bad for her given that it's a conscious, willing choice.

I'm a little iffy on how much of Lindsay's inability to reach out to people is a conscious choice. It seems a lot like she's simply incapable of it, has no idea how to reach out unless people bulldoze their way in first. Which is what I'd expect to find in someone with her past (overly-dramatized as it was). It's tough to say, but looking at things like the way Lindsay never reached out to Stella about the Frankie thing (as in, went to the hospital to visit her, called, anything), but was still lashing-out angry and "wishing she could do something to help". And the way she awkwardly told Stella that she could really use a friend, but the moment Stella told her she had one, she just awkwardly smiled and left the office. Those seem to be her ways of expressing that she does care, and they strongly indicate that she's crippled emotionally. It really makes me think that if she had even beginner-abilities to reach out, she would. And then the many things with Danny (I'm thinking the way she wasn't once there emotionally for him in Run Silent, yet risked her job to give him the DNA results first). It seems like she wants to reach out so often, just has no idea how to. So she can't form healthy meaningful connections, because she can barely interact warmly or meaningfully with people.

 

[Top41]

Yeah, I know it's sad more than creepy. I just meant creepy in an "oh gosh, I'm watching a train wreck that I just can't stop and it doesn't seem to be stopping on its own" way... because story-wise, separate from Anna Belknap's pregnancy, I think the train-wreck of D/L just keeps coming because Danny just never lets it go. I think it would've ended way back in S3, and again in S4, if he hadn't kept pushing both times.

Good point--Danny doesn't know how to let go. We've seen that as far back as season one, when cases haunted him and he pushed things he was specifically told not to ("Crime & Misdemeanor", "On the Job"). He's desperate for approval.

Which makes it very easy to see that (in this case, anyway) he very much wants happiness, the whole happy-family deal. I just ...well, find it sad I guess, because I think if he'd just cooled it for a minute, sat back and waited, he could totally have the whole deal. Maybe not Lindsay, but he could've had a strong friendship with Lindsay while still having Lucy. Once she knew he wanted to be involved, Lindsay put every effort into making things work successfully, even knowing he didn't feel the same way about her. After she turned him down in the Triangle, she promised him that she wasn't going anywhere. She was the one to hunt him down when she felt the baby start kicking. Friendwise, they were getting along great. She wasn't about to keep Lucy from him.

I agree, but they'd obviously been sleeping together and maybe he feared Lindsay wouldn't be satisfied with a "just friends" relationship. And I think he wanted the whole package--wife and kid. That meant getting Lindsay on board. His desperation to get married kind of speaks to that.

Well, I can't believe he didn't know Lindsay was hurt by the end of RND. Maybe none of his other girlfriends outright said - like she did - that they loved him...but if he tended to distance himself in his other relationships, I can't imagine that those break-ups would've been much nicer.

He did, I'm sure, but in that case, he was hurting, too. And it seems unfair that he had to put aside his pain to deal with hers. His was over the death of a kid; hers was over her boyfriend not reaching out to her...after she hadn't opened the door for him to do so anyway.

I do agree, though, that she should've gone to him and talked it out rationally, rather than leaving him to corner her. But that would've been so OOC.

Or maybe it would have shown growth. I think it's high time Lindsay did grow up a bit. There's all this emphasis on Danny growing and changing, but what about her?

I'd see it as reason enough if she'd activey been giving off a signal that she didn't want to deal with him, but she did. She was uncomfortable with it - as were the other people on the team - but she did want to helip him, had he come to her. I saw the things like sending Flack after him, and covering for him during his shift, as indications that she wanted to do right by him, even if she wasn't good at it.

That showed she wanted to help--from afar. I'd never dispute that she cares about him or wanted to help him. But not enough to overcome her own discomfort with his messy emotions.

I really see Danny as equally culpable because we never saw a scene where Lindsay reached out to him - but we never saw a scene where Danny seemed to want her help, either. If he'd even made a comment to Lindsay like the one he made to Mac and (um, I have to find out if it was Angell or Adam in this scene), or the one he made to Flack, I'm really not buying that Lindsay wouldn't have run with it. I'd be a lot more sympathetic if he had, and she hadn't. He didn't seem to want to talk in the first place, and then even when he was just blowing off steam it's like he was blowing it off to everyone but her.

It seemed obvious to me that Danny was hurting. Maybe he didn't make a comment in front of Lindsay, but it wouldn't have killed her to say, "How are you doing?" or "Let's go out and talk tonight." Flack had to work to get through to Danny, but he did that work and he got through. He did it because he cares a great deal for Danny. Lindsay should have done the same.

I did think about the Hawkes thing, although in the scenes I'm remembering it always seems to be like Danny asks if Hawkes is okay, and then Hawkes dumps on him with very little warning :lol: But Danny always handles it well, so I guess it's safe to say he's not as completely crippled with emotional things as Lindsay is.

Yeah, but Danny always asks. That's the difference. He takes the risk of being dumped on. He reaches out when he senses he's needed.

But yeah, Danny tried with Flack by showing up - like Lindsay tried with him, by showing up at the morgue.

But as soon as Danny left, she gave up. That wasn't much of a try.

Danny showed obvious signs of support, but when it came to dealing-with-emotional-things-support, I just noticed that Danny didn't quite know what to do. I do think that Flack doesn't expect Danny to be the emotional support in their dynamic, but I think there's a reason for that - he knows how damaged Danny is emotionally.

That's part of it, but I also think that Flack looks at Danny as someone weaker than he is--Danny is someone he takes care of. Mac is even more awkward with emotional situations than Danny is, but Flack would never try to shield him the way he does Danny.

And Danny knows first-hand how crippled Lindsay is emotionally, I think it'd be only fair that she would get similar consideration from him. Lindsay showed the same obvious support-signs - covering his shift, going to him once she'd heard about Ruben. But she didn't know what to do on the emotional side.

I know she tried, but it's likely Danny didn't even know she sent Flack after him. And he barely noticed her in the morgue. To him, it probably seemed like she didn't try that much. And she really didn't.

True...I don't think she ever would have, though, because telling him about her past - that would've created an emotional tie with Danny. One that, back then, I don't think she had any intention of creating.

True, but it doesn't really excuse her treatment of him.

Also true. I just wish he'd slow down and...wait, sometimes. I don't think there was ever a danger of him losing his kid. I do think Lindsay was biding her time until she told him (like she bided her time until she was able to talk to Danny personally again, at the end of S4)....she was just taking forever to do it.

Yeah, he needs to chill, that's for sure. And I don't think any of us would worry about him being cut out of the kid's life...but again, Danny isn't the most rational of guys. :lol:

Yeah, for a long time, Flack/Stella was another one of my favourite ships :lol:

I've always liked that one, too. It's cute. Though I admit, I've only ever seen Flack having eyes for Danny. :lol:

I don't see Flack falling for her either, not as she is now. I do think, however, that the yes-no-yes-no would, out of necessity, stop on Lindsay's end. If it ever did happen. *shrug* It's just shipping.

Oh, definitely, and with shipping it's always a "to each their own" kind of thing. Different people see different pairings, which is kind of fun.

As it usually does (All in the Family). And then when he's not in danger, they're usually making an extra effort to interact well with each for his sake. I'm just not seeing rivalry here. Especially given what (I think) Flack knew of Lindsay's behaviour in S3, I think he'd have every reason to show his resentment any chance he got.

Probably not when Danny is in danger, though. It's been a while since I've seen the episodes, but I used to notice little things, like him walking out and leaving her in an interrogation room or snarking her in little ways--like his impatience with her flower speech in ..."A Daze of Wine and Roaches," maybe? And how he doesn't look at her when they're together a lot. Little things but they always seemed telling to me.

I just see them as being equally culpable in the mess that is their relationship, but I can't be that surprised that it is such a mess. I guess I sympathize with both of them, but I can see how they're both at fault, at the same time.

Lol, totally found it :lol: Thanks! I don't know at this point who I can say is more damaged. I naturally seemed to think Lindsay before, because Danny has a lot of healthy relationships whereas Lindsay just has him. She doesn't seem able to reach out to people, in a way that Danny naturally seems to. But I can see how she'd come across as healthier, because I can't agree more with your view. Danny's pain shows very obviously when he's feeling it, whereas Lindsay's always hiding hers behind cheerful lab demonstrations.

Danny just seems like an insecure, vulnerable, tragic mess a lot of the time. Lindsay appears to have overcome, especially since season three, even if that makes her seem hard and isolated. Danny just totally seems like the weaker one of the two.

Yeah, I've always wondered whether Stella would've picked up on that, had things not been so tense at the time. I definitely agree the comments were off, especially with the fairly-light flirtation they had going on. But you know, if Danny's comments were always that unsubtle, maybe it's not surprising that Sid picked up on them!

Sid was going based on the nickname I think, which fair enough for him to make the assumption...though Danny kind of nicknames people fairly regularly. Hawkes is "Doc" and I know he's had others. As for Stella, I imagine she did pick up on it, but didn't seem to want to go down that road--it wasn't the time. I seem to remember her diverting the conversation.

I still see it more that he was treating her great because she stepped all over him - before, he was fine with things just taking the un-emotional turn that they were.

The fact that Danny would treat her well because she was mistreating him just says so much about who he is and how shredded his sense of self is. But I agree with you on that.

And then he stops treating her great when she decides to be nice...his behaviour at the beginning of S4 just really makes it seem like he got bored. I could see him being wary and mistrustful of her after the trial, if he wasn't flirting with her all over the place in the next few episodes, or if he'd started pulling away before they hit the pool table. I don't know how convincing it is that it's only after they hit the relationship-phase that he decided to back off.

Bored or maybe he did get scared once things got close. The flirting was the comfortable habit they had been in during season two. It was familiar. Once things got more serious, maybe he just shut down and withdrew.

I could understand it from that standpoint if it hadn't seemed, from Snow Day and in the episodes leading up to Snow Day, like he was more than prepared to invest in such a relationship. I agree that Lindsay initiated things in Snow Day, and probably the relationship to - I do think Danny just went with the flow. But I'm not just talking about his showing up in Montana, I'm thinking more about his behaviour in the episodes after that - I can really see how Lindsay would've thought he might want an emotional relationship. At that point, I think he did want an emotional relationship, though he was taking his cue from her. It wasn't until S4 that he started to back off. I can't see her having started anything if it didn't look like he was interested in anything. Even in S2, she made her crush obvious, but I don't think it would've lasted if he hadn't reciprocated.

I agree, he's always reciprocated. But he's always taken his cue from her first. His interest followed hers, she made the first move to kiss him and then to bed him.

This wouldn't have been possible - she would've started showing eventually - and I think Lindsay knew it. I wasn't the least bit surprised when she said she'd known for six weeks already without telling Danny - it was in keeping with what she did at the end of S4; building up defences until she was ready to talk to him on a personal level. Running/hiding until she's built herself up enough to be ready to talk - it's Lindsay's MO as much as responding-to-interest is Danny's.

Agreed. They both really need to work on those issues!

 

[racefh853629]

Danny has never had money issues or responsibility issues that we'd seen to that point. Emotional issues, yes, but not anything that has ever made him seem like he'd be irresponsible.

Good point. But I'm saying that I think Lindsay would (and probably did) look at his emotional issues as a reason for concern when raising a child. Of course, she's not completely blameless here and she should look at herself a bit too...

Just saying.

Both of them have been rather hot/cold with each other, and while that could be okay for a relationship (not really, because it's not healthy, but that's another point), it's not good when raising a child.

I think Danny's a great daddy, personally. I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate.

Still, it's his child, too. That initial way she avoided telling him suggests that she was considering dealing with the situation without him having any say or involvement in the baby.

Agreed.

Did she say she didn't expect anything? That's one way of saying that--a bit of a put-down, but still an acceptable thing to say. The "I know you" felt like a dig to me.

I'm pretty sure she alluded to that point, if not outright saying it. "I know you" is a dig, but it's also an acknowledgement of his issues. And part of her issue is that she can't convey exactly what she means in her words without them completely sounding like a dig.

If there's one thing that Danny and Lindsay need to work on, it's how to say what they mean and mean what they say.

As far as Danny being an emotional support, I think that's what he'd like to do. I think he'd like to be the go-to guy, the person people can dump on. He wants to be there and be available, even if it kills him. Looking at Sleight out of Hand, he was so worried about how Lindsay was doing that he couldn't sleep.

I think Danny has a dependent personality. He needs people around him. He needs them to be happy for him to be happy. He can't let go because he needs people to be there, even if they could be detrimental to him. To his credit, though, he manages to avoid holding onto those who hurt him... for the most part.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

So what I'm sensing from all of this is that Lindsay has control issues. Huge ones! It totally explains why she became a CSI, putting her in control of the fate of the bad guys, which is what she didn't feel when she was 14 and her friends got killed.

It's fair to say that she controlled the speed of the relationship with Danny, from the edited out kiss from COTP to backing away from Danny when her past came back up, bedding him in Snow Day, pulling herself out of the equation totally after Ruben died, hanging up on him at the end of Personal Foul instead of agreeing to go to his place, keeping her pregnancy a secret until he cornered her, and turning him down the first time he proposed marriage. Hmmm.

If that is the case, why on earth did she allow herself to get involved with the bundle of raw emotion that is Danny Messer. Was it the allure of someone that was so candidly open with his feelings, so totally opposite from her? Was it that he just wouldn't leave her alone and she caved? I think it was his savior complex that got her in the end.

In almost every instance that she backed up or shut down or walled herself off he came crashing through and the trip to Montana did it for her. He put on the armor and got on the white horse and came after her. He put up with her crap and seemed to handle it okay, which was important to her because I think she knew she had issues and that the walls she built around herself were pretty sturdy. Of course they were...she built them and she was in control of them. They went up and down as she felt threatened, just like they were supposed to.

I thought it was odd that Danny seemed to lose steam once she let him inside and she seemed happy, but then again once saved equals not in need of saving any more equals doesn't need me so I have nothing else to offer. Hmmm. Sounds like Danny Messer to me. He is his own solution to everyone's problem. If it didn't make him feel so needed, it would be arrogant. But it doesn't come across that way at all. It just makes him seem self-sacrificing or martyrish or something. Not sure what the word is yet. I want to say pitiful but not sure that's it either.

Only in the baby storyline do I see them finally seeing the other's issues and dealing with them. I liked it when Danny called Lindsay on her running away from him. When she said he should go back to work and he countered with "No, you should talk to me" I felt like he wasn't letting her off the hook anymore. He wasn't going to let her control this one.

On the other side of things, I didn't see Lindsay allowing herself to be swept away by his wanting to be the solution to her problem again, even though it was his baby. I'm not sure why she hadn't told him yet, except that she wasn't ready. She would have told him on her terms, when she felt like she had a plan in place in case he ran the other direction. I don't think it had anything to do with wanting to hurt him by keeping it from him. She just needed to get all her ducks in a row first in case she had to go it alone. It's a control thing.

 

[Maya316]

I agree, but they'd obviously been sleeping together and maybe he feared Lindsay wouldn't be satisfied with a "just friends" relationship. And I think he wanted the whole package--wife and kid. That meant getting Lindsay on board. His desperation to get married kind of speaks to that.

Yeah... but he wants the whole package for all the wrong reasons. I mean, he wants it for Lucy, but a child is not a good enough reason to get married. I think it wouldn't bother me as much if he'd waited to want the whole package until he and Lindsay had at least talked out their issues, or even addressed them. Worked out the reasons they possibly should be together and the (many) reasons they shouldn't. But I'm starting to think that sort of self-awareness between the two of them is only going to be reached in a bizarro-universe, so I'm just groaning here.

He did, I'm sure, but in that case, he was hurting, too. And it seems unfair that he had to put aside his pain to deal with hers. His was over the death of a kid; hers was over her boyfriend not reaching out to her...after she hadn't opened the door for him to do so anyway.

I think she would've dealt with her own pain decently enough if he'd given her the space to, so I can't really see it as unfair. She never once gave him any indication that she'd like him to drop everything for her....but maybe that's iffy. Anyway, he made the connection of Lindsay being hurt by his distance fine in that case, and (for a minute toward the end of RND, anyway) seemed sorry that he had let their relationship hit a point where she could be hurt by him.

Or maybe it would have shown growth. I think it's high time Lindsay did grow up a bit. There's all this emphasis on Danny growing and changing, but what about her?

Oh my gosh, yes! She's one of my favourite characters, but she needs industrial-strength therapy. And growth from it. I don't think she's ever had it, but I've rarely seen a character who needed it more. Skipping for a second to what you said here:

Danny just seems like an insecure, vulnerable, tragic mess a lot of the time. Lindsay appears to have overcome, especially since season three, even if that makes her seem hard and isolated. Danny just totally seems like the weaker one of the two.

I don't buy for a second that Lindsay's overcome since season three. I think she thinks she's overcome by becoming hard and isolated (which she seemed to largely be in seasons 2 and 3 also). I think in early season 4, she might've even viewed it as a personal victory, a sign that she'd overcome, because she had an emotional tie with at least one person now. But I see her as just as vulnerable and tragic as Danny, even if she doesn't visibly ooze it the way Danny does. She has not one truly healthy, meaningful relationship. She doesn't seem to have even the first idea of how to form one. I'm desperately hoping we'll see something with the Lucy storyline in S6. Given the way she is now with emotions and relationships, I think every one of her fears of motherhood could easily, almost inevitably come true, because I'm not sure if even her child would be able to get through that wall. But she seems so badly to want to stop all that from happening, so I'm hoping it'll make her try anything. Force her to make that extra effort to reach out, even if she has to go to therapy to make it.

That showed she wanted to help--from afar. I'd never dispute that she cares about him or wanted to help him. But not enough to overcome her own discomfort with his messy emotions.

I totally agree. It seems like the only thing Lindsay is ever able to do emotionally is show that she cares from afar. I don't think she had the first clue how to overcome her discomfort with the emotions, because honestly, it's a lot more ingrained than her just "not being good at it".

It seemed obvious to me that Danny was hurting. Maybe he didn't make a comment in front of Lindsay, but it wouldn't have killed her to say, "How are you doing?" or "Let's go out and talk tonight." Flack had to work to get through to Danny, but he did that work and he got through. He did it because he cares a great deal for Danny. Lindsay should have done the same.

Yeah, she should've. I don't know if she could have (and this has nothing to do with Danny, I just don't know if emotionally, she would've been capable of it), but she should have.

Yeah, but Danny always asks. That's the difference. He takes the risk of being dumped on. He reaches out when he senses he's needed.

And that, inherently, is why I see Danny as just being in a healthier place, at least when it comes to people. Danny seems able to reach out with ease. I'm still iffy on how good he is with other people's emotional problems, but he seems to show them that he cares with ease. It's not that easy for a lot of other people, and I definitely don't think it's nearly as easy for Lindsay.

That's part of it, but I also think that Flack looks at Danny as someone weaker than he is--Danny is someone he takes care of. Mac is even more awkward with emotional situations than Danny is, but Flack would never try to shield him the way he does Danny.

True, I can see this.

True, but it doesn't really excuse her treatment of him.

Lol, definitely agree.

I've always liked that one, too. It's cute. Though I admit, I've only ever seen Flack having eyes for Danny.

Might have to look into that one. I think in general, I just like Flack pairings. Stella, Lindsay...Flack/Angell was actually the only pairing I couldn't stand, but I think that had more to do with my Angell-issues than it did with their onscreen interactions.

Probably not when Danny is in danger, though. It's been a while since I've seen the episodes, but I used to notice little things, like him walking out and leaving her in an interrogation room or snarking her in little ways--like his impatience with her flower speech in ..."A Daze of Wine and Roaches," maybe? And how he doesn't look at her when they're together a lot. Little things but they always seemed telling to me.

Lol, actually the whole "Lots of greenhouses in New York, Linds" - "Well, that's true, Flack" is one of my favourite exchanges of theirs - she definitely sounded at least as snarky with him as he did with her, but they were both kind of smiling when they said these things, so I couldn't really see any mean undercurrents in it. I've never really noticed the not-looking-at-her thing, but I dunno...it just seems to me like they wouldn't have moments like the Laughing Larry one (the "you are so uncool" look they gave Stella, then each other was hilarious), or the phone-numbers thing in episode one of S3, if they actually saw each other as rivals. I could totally buy them seeing each other as friendly rivals, but Flack puts up with a ridiculous amount from Lindsay that I can't see him putting up with if he didn't like her at all. I mean, no one lays into suspects like he does, and we've seen him get harsh with Mac and even Stella before.

Bored or maybe he did get scared once things got close. The flirting was the comfortable habit they had been in during season two. It was familiar. Once things got more serious, maybe he just shut down and withdrew.

Yeah...I definitely think that's what he did.


I'm sorry, I know I'm cutting corners here, but I'll definitely come back later

 

[CSI Cupcake]

Lots of good stuff above guys. The more I think about Lindsay the more I realize that she really is two people. Outside the wall she is professional and well educated and current age and a control freak, but she keeps a scared little girl inside the castle walls and it affects her relationships with just about everyone.

I've read on here before that Mac coddles her and treats her differently than he does everyone else and doesn't call her on her bad behavior and it's true, he deals with her differently. That's odd for him, being military where no one gets a break, but he knew her background when she came in the door, acknowledging that she was the only survivor in S3 right before she left for Montana. I think he knew her problems weren't going to go away overnight and was willing to work with that, maybe because of the walls he put up around himself after Claire's death. I don't want to sound too sappy, but whereas Danny needed that firm hand and the shock of Mac's discipline to establish boundries for his behavior, Lindsay really did need the nurturing that he allowed her. You know how you coax a scared animal (or child) into trusting you? You stand really still and let them come to you. That's what I saw Mac do with Lindsay. He allowed her to put stuff on his lip and tie his tie and all that stuff as a way to allow her to let down the wall. In return he gained her trust and affection so when he did come down on her about leaving the evidence out he didn't get the 14 year old like Stella did. Now, I know that is just one instance, but does it make sense? To not have any children of his own, he really seems to get that you can't always use the same discipline tactics with all your kids. What works with one, doesn't always work with another.

By the way I loved the tender look on Mac's face when she tied the tie on him in People with Money. I wonder if he was remembering Claire tying his ties for him because that is something I can see happening.

With Stella being a woman supervisor over her you get the mom thing going and Lindsay doesn't deal with moms very well anyway, let alone having a scared angry teenager living inside you. The "leave me alone" remark was totally the teenager coming out, which would be normal behavior when the walls are breached by what she was dealing with that day. The Montana case had ripped the wall down and she was exposed. I'm not condoning it, just understanding why she lashed out in that manner. Once she "went to her room and slammed the door" and had time to put the wall back in place she came out and was able to approach Stella in control of herself and the situation.

Danny got through the walls because he's the 14 year old's dream guy. What 14 year old girl wouldn't want someone as charming and cute as Danny teasing her and pulling her hair and playing pranks on her. The problem was that he didn't know he was dealing with a 14 year old until it was too late. That combined with his savior complex was sort of a double punch to the relationship. I'm thinking he had a :wtf: moment there when he realized he saved a 14 year old.:lol: The hero worship he got after the diving incident totally sounded to me like the 14 year old talking. Her comment about her dream in Snow Day has always bugged me as well, and now I know why. It sounds like something a teenager would say. I always cringed when I saw that scene because her comment was so juvenile. But if the child inside is 14 and just got the cute boy, then it totally makes sense, to me anyway. I think that her control issues come out the most with Danny because he is where she is most vulnerable, not because she sees him as weak. When she controls the relationship then her emotional side is safe. When she looses control of the relationship, as in when Danny is going through the Ruben arc and pulls away from her then her emotions are exposed and she reacts like the 14 year old would. Not being mature in this area, of course his forgetting her birthday is the most important thing on her mind. He really should have called her on that much like Flack called Jess on her worrying about people knowing they were dating. I think if he had, she would have straightened up and put things back in perspective.

Her treatment of Adam can also be seen as accurate, for someone who feels like they have gained control over their issues, albeit walling them off doesn't sound like a healthy way of dealing with things but at least it allows her to function on a daily basis. Adam, on the other hand, has damage as well, and the fact that he seems vulnerable all the time makes her see him as a victim, not a survivor like herself, hence she doesn't respect him. Damage recognizes damage.

This is just my musings on the issue. If it makes sense, then good. If it's totally off base I will chalk it up to not sleeping well and take my hits. Just warn me before you start up the saw.:lol:

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake:

With Stella being a woman supervisor over her you get the mom thing going and Lindsay doesn't deal with moms very well anyway, let alone having a scared angry teenager living inside you. The "leave me alone" remark was totally the teenager coming out, which would be normal behavior when the walls are breached by what she was dealing with that day. The Montana case had ripped the wall down and she was exposed. I'm not condoning it, just understanding why she lashed out in that manner. Once she "went to her room and slammed the door" and had time to put the wall back in place she came out and was able to approach Stella in control of herself and the situation.

Danny got through the walls because he's the 14 year old's dream guy. What 14 year old girl wouldn't want someone as charming and cute as Danny teasing her and pulling her hair and playing pranks on her. The problem was that he didn't know he was dealing with a 14 year old until it was too late. That combined with his savior complex was sort of a double punch to the relationship. I'm thinking he had a :wtf: moment there when he realized he saved a 14 year old.

This is actually really interesting, although I'm not sure how much I agree with it. I think I can see Lindsay-as-an-emotional-person being frozen at the age of fourteen, trapped somewhere inside her. But a lot of things about her make me think that Lindsay's almost desperate to keep that emotional-teen side of her trapped, to stop it from getting out.

This is going to come back to something Top41 and I said about Lindsay's emotional distance from people, and her needing to grow up. I think Lindsay's more childish behaviour (running away/hiding/never wanting to talk until she's ready) has everything to do with that emotional distance, and her complete inability to deal with any kind of emotion, or interact with people. She's completely un-equippedto do it.

She seems to live her life by compartmentalizing everything, fitting her job and her emotions and the people around her into safe mental boxes that she can keep at a distance, while still interacting with them in a way that makes them (and a lot of other people) think that she's completely normal, by social standards. Supervisor who hired me, supervisor who was friendly to me on the first day, cute guy at work who shares my office, cute-guy's best friend who I really have to try with. [I've always found it very telling that it was Danny - the guy who she literally had no choice but to see every day without even trying, because he shared her office - that she chose to start a casual flirtation with, because in general most people don't do this. Not on the CSI shows (at least, until this year), and not in real life. Most people don't start casual flings with coworkers, but I think Danny was the easy option, so she went with it. I don't think she'd have the first clue (let alone the ability) to start up a personal conversation and then a fling with a guy she met in a bar or something - a guy she'd have to work to see.]

It's like she clings to this safe compartmentalizing coping-method with almost-eerie desperation. It's why I see her as emotionally crippled. Life doesn't work that way, life throws emotional curveballs with no regard to coping mechanisms or mental plans. And Lindsay seems completely unable to deal healthily with these curveballs. Most people usually work through these curveballs with the other people involved, or someone else who will care. Mac, Stella, Hawkes, Danny - they all do this with varying degrees of reluctance, but they all do it, they all lean on someone. Lindsay, on the other hand, tends to run/hide/shut down/otherwise vanish until she's had time to mentally compartmentalize and distance herself again, before even thinking about the other people involved, or anyone else who might care.

Personally, I think this is the reason she stood Danny up without even a phone call, or even a text message to cancel the date - if she found out about the trial that day (or if she felt her relationship with Danny was getting too personal), Danny was probably the very last thing on her mind until he showed up at the crime scene. It's why she disappeared from the crime scene in Silent Night and all but bit Stella's head off when Stella tried to ask what was wrong - and then when she was forced to work without having her token compartmentalization-time, she broke down. [Bad as it was, I always thought it made perfect sense when Lindsay started crying in the morgue.] And then she was embarrassed, so even while telling Stella she needed a friend, she ran the moment Stella tried to reach out to her. Obviously, I think it's the reason for why, even after six weeks of preparation, she still ran when she saw Danny at the health clinic; why he literally had to corner her before she told him about the baby, why he had to push for three episodes at the end of S4 before she was able to talk to him after RND. She does this with every emotion that suddenly, unexpectedly comes at her. Happy, sad, angry, whatever. (One of my favourite things about the RND fight was how Danny had to set her off before she started yelling - I found it very in character for her, and of course she started avoiding him for ages after she blew up.) It's almost scary. I wasn't the least bit surprised when Danny found out about the sex of his child through an impersonal text-message. For that matter, he didn't seem that surprised either. I think if it had been at all up to Lindsay, she'd've actually called him to talk - a couple of days later.

It's fascinating, I've always found it something really interesting about her character. Because at this very least, it shows she has this almost-eerie determination to always behave in a cool-headed, rational manner - even as the coping mechanism is the very thing that leads her to not act in that rational manner.

But it's a sign of emotional damage, and as a coping mechanism, I really think it has to go. How is Lucy not going to grow up hating Lindsay and being rebellious if her mom literally has to shut down and pull away emotionally before she can talk to her about anything personal? So I'm hoping we'll see growth away from it, because at least Lindsay seemed to want to grow from it, in Greater Good.

 

[meggzie]

Just a quick post coz I don't have any time to read or reply just sayin am so glad that these threads and debates are going on I was worried when it was over for the season there would be nothing to talk about:lol:
and am in pretty much agreement with most people here with what I have read

thank you for not making my csiny withdrawals hard:guffaw:

 

[CSI Cupcake]

This is actually really interesting, although I'm not sure how much I agree with it. I think I can see Lindsay-as-an-emotional-person being frozen at the age of fourteen, trapped somewhere inside her. But a lot of things about her make me think that Lindsay's almost desperate to keep that emotional-teen side of her trapped, to stop it from getting out.

This is going to come back to something Top41 and I said about Lindsay's emotional distance from people, and her needing to grow up. I think Lindsay's more childish behaviour (running away/hiding/never wanting to talk until she's ready) has everything to do with that emotional distance, and her complete inability to deal with any kind of emotion, or interact with people. She's completely un-equippedto do it.

I think she is equipped with a coping mechanism tool in order to control it but doesn't have the tools to know how to work through it and grow. Her remoteness and aloofness is the coping tool. However she hasn't learned how to deal with emotions on an adult level. Her emotions are that of a much younger person...hence the 14 year old analgy. It's interesting that it sort of corresponds to when the crime happened. Makes me think she didn't get the therapy she needed back then to help her emotions continue to mature along with the rest of her.

She seems to live her life by compartmentalizing everything, fitting her job and her emotions and the people around her into safe mental boxes that she can keep at a distance, while still interacting with them in a way that makes them (and a lot of other people) think that she's completely normal, by social standards. Supervisor who hired me, supervisor who was friendly to me on the first day, cute guy at work who shares my office, cute-guy's best friend who I really have to try with. [I've always found it very telling that it was Danny - the guy who she literally had no choice but to see every day without even trying, because he shared her office - that she chose to start a casual flirtation with, because in general most people don't do this. Not on the CSI shows (at least, until this year), and not in real life. Most people don't start casual flings with coworkers, but I think Danny was the easy option, so she went with it. I don't think she'd have the first clue (let alone the ability) to start up a personal conversation and then a fling with a guy she met in a bar or something - a guy she'd have to work to see.]

I think she got to New York and thought she had left it all behind her. She had dreams of living in Manhattan and having everything that went along with it. A new life, a fresh start. What she didn't realize is that "wherever you go, there you are" emotions, baggage and all. Working with Danny everyday got her to a place of being comfortable and she dropped her guard. He worked on her pretty hard during the second half of S2, so by the time she realized she had allowed him behind the castle walls and developed feelings for him she was already in too deep. In an effort to keep the relationship and her control, she took the drivers seat and kissed him. Why she thought taking it to the next level was a good thing is beyond me but emotions want what they want and Danny seemed to be what she wanted. I can't blame her for wanting a relationship. Even 14 year olds want a boyfriend. However, I think she realized that if she kept him in her life she would have to allow him access to her past and that was a little to close for comfort. So she backed off and told him she had to be alone, once she learned what she was going to have to do with the Montana thing. Once again, not wanting the present to touch the past and backing off to control the situation.

It's like she clings to this safe compartmentalizing coping-method with almost-eerie desperation. It's why I see her as emotionally crippled. Life doesn't work that way, life throws emotional curveballs with no regard to coping mechanisms or mental plans. And Lindsay seems completely unable to deal healthily with these curveballs. Most people usually work through these curveballs with the other people involved, or someone else who will care. Mac, Stella, Hawkes, Danny - they all do this with varying degrees of reluctance, but they all do it, they all lean on someone. Lindsay, on the other hand, tends to run/hide/shut down/otherwise vanish until she's had time to mentally compartmentalize and distance herself again, before even thinking about the other people involved, or anyone else who might care.

Yeah, but most people don't have the kind of tragedy she was hiding. Remember, she never talked about it specifically, only refering to it almost as part of her job when she told Danny she had seen bloodier scenes than the one in Manhattan Manhunt (?). She was hiding a whopping part of her past, which reinforces my thought that she just wanted to outrun it by moving to NY and creating an entire new life for herself. In order to maintain that, she had to keep people outside the walls.

Personally, I think this is the reason she stood Danny up without even a phone call, or even a text message to cancel the date - if she found out about the trial that day (or if she felt her relationship with Danny was getting too personal), Danny was probably the very last thing on her mind until he showed up at the crime scene. It's why she disappeared from the crime scene in Silent Night and all but bit Stella's head off when Stella tried to ask what was wrong - and then when she was forced to work without having her token compartmentalization-time, she broke down. [Bad as it was, I always thought it made perfect sense when Lindsay started crying in the morgue.] And then she was embarrassed, so even while telling Stella she needed a friend, she ran the moment Stella tried to reach out to her. Obviously, I think it's the reason for why, even after six weeks of preparation, she still ran when she saw Danny at the health clinic; why he literally had to corner her before she told him about the baby, why he had to push for three episodes at the end of S4 before she was able to talk to him after RND. She does this with every emotion that suddenly, unexpectedly comes at her. Happy, sad, angry, whatever. (One of my favourite things about the RND fight was how Danny had to set her off before she started yelling - I found it very in character for her, and of course she started avoiding him for ages after she blew up.) It's almost scary. I wasn't the least bit surprised when Danny found out about the sex of his child through an impersonal text-message. For that matter, he didn't seem that surprised either. I think if it had been at all up to Lindsay, she'd've actually called him to talk - a couple of days later.

Not sure what you mean about it being up to Lindsay with the texting. I thought that was just poor writing and an attempt to appeal to the masses of folks who text. However, concerning her behavior during the Ruben arc, I am in total disagreement with Top on her not reaching out to Danny. She talked with Mac, took his advise, and sent out in the same direction Danny took, leading me to believe she went after him and at least tried to reach him. I don't think he was in a place to accept consolation from anyone and when she tried he probably shut her out. In turn, she felt rejected and lashed out about the birthday in true juvenile style. I don't agree with her behavior but I can see how it came about.

I actually liked the fight in RND because she finally dealt on an adult level. Her speech to him was adult in content and tone. But remember, she had time to write that speech because I think she got mad when he brushed off her offer of lunch. That was the third time she had reached out to him, if you count her and Flack working on finding him after Rikki stole his gun. And she really did take responsibility for allowing her feelings to run away with her. Or at least that's how I took her saying that she wasn't mad at him, but rather at herself for allowing herself to fall in love with him. The emphasis wasn't on him, it was on her. She was kicking herself for letting her guard down. Probably something she promised herself she would not do again, allow herself to get close enough to people to be hurt when they go away. In a way, she and Danny are very similar. Neither can stand people leaving them. They just handle it differently. He sacrifices himself in order to remain together and she distances herself so that they can't get close to begin with.

It's fascinating, I've always found it something really interesting about her character. Because at this very least, it shows she has this almost-eerie determination to always behave in a cool-headed, rational manner - even as the coping mechanism is the very thing that leads her to not act in that rational manner.

But it's a sign of emotional damage, and as a coping mechanism, I really think it has to go. How is Lucy not going to grow up hating Lindsay and being rebellious if her mom literally has to shut down and pull away emotionally before she can talk to her about anything personal? So I'm hoping we'll see growth away from it, because at least Lindsay seemed to want to grow from it, in Greater Good.

Her opening up to Stella in Greater Good was at least an attempt to work through emotions by talking about them instead of walling herself off from people. It's interesting that it came after jumping all over Adam, which was her emotions misbehaving when the scene didn't play out like she imagined it would. She was rattled, and once agian, her unruly emotions struck out at someone.

Hopefully she realizes that she can't continue making the sacrifices of personal relationship in order to control her emotions. I am very interested in seeing how long the dreamworld of new husband and new baby lasts before reality bites.