Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by CSI Cupcake, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Yes, exactly! Flack chased him all over Manhattan in "All in the Family" and even in the end, he just didn't seem to get why Flack would want to help him like that.

    I've never really seen Lindsay's walls as insecurity in the same way I do Danny's--she just shuts people out because she doesn't want to get close to them. Fear of losing people she cares about, sure, but I think she also just thinks she can handle stuff on her own. Danny seems to know he can't, but doesn't feel anyone would or should want to help him.

    Yeah, there was definitely a strong bond between Danny and Aiden. It seemed pretty clear to me that they had a strong, established relationship when the show began, so much so that they could playfully flirt without either taking it wrong (though I do wonder if Aiden had stayed on the show, whether something might have developed there). I think losing Aiden contributed to Danny's damage--I think everything at the end of season two did. In a way, it was kind of what happened to Lindsay in that diner, because he lost or nearly lost three people close to him in quick succession. I think that messed him up, and in part explains why he was so clingy with Lindsay in season three.

    She didn't know at the time she wouldn't get that version of him back, so it seemed like that speech was an attempt to do that--and honestly, to make him pay for not turning to her. I keep getting stuck on the fact that if she'd really cared about him, she would have said some version of what Mac recommended in "Child's Play": "I'm not good at this kind of thing, but I do want to support you." Instead she accuses him of grieving on his own and tells him she has to get over being in love with him. Given all that he's going through, that's just cruel. Put it this way: I saw very little sensitivity for what he's going through or genuine care for him in that speech.

    Desperate to get back in her good graces or just eager to get her to drop the birthday issue. I definitely saw the latter, but I didn't sense groveling. I think he was defensive about it, actually. He made excuses--though really what he should have said was, "Geez, Lindsay, you know I didn't have a lot of shopping time in between grieving for Ruben and trying to keep his mother from killing the man she does hold responsible for his death." That might have been more effective, but again--communication, these two don't do it well.

    Or things she managed to make him think he was guilty of. This is Danny--criticize him and he'll take it and believe it. He was the same way in "On the Job" with the head-hanging--and Mac was a lot more justified. Grieving "all on his own"? Of course he did--she never reached out to him. Reducing her to a "shallow clingy girlfriend"? That's the image she herself presented when she complained about him forgetting her birthday. She should be mad at herself, but she directed the anger at Danny.

    I need to watch the ep again!

    Right after Mac said, "Fill Danny in." Didn't she say, "Here, read it yourself" or something like that? I just remember how unprofessional she was in that moment, how passive-agressive.

    I don't think he was so much reluctant as he was obviously just trying to do the right thing. It was still a sweet gesture with good intentions behind it. Granted, a bad idea, but still sincere and she owed him more than saying "no" and walking away. Definitely how she would have liked to be treated, but this is Danny and he's not like her--and until she makes an effort to understand that and allow for that the way he did with her, they're never going to be a good match.

    I think her yo-yoing set the tone for his, really. She pushed and pulled and pushed and pulled and then decided she wanted him--but by that point it seems he wasn't sure he still wanted her. Hard to blame him. But then she tells him she loves him and Danny sees the prospect of letting down/failing/not being good enough for someone who loves him so he decides to make an effort.

    Agreed, it did--and that all clearly made it okay for her. But not for Danny--he needed more. Again, I keep coming back to his massive insecurities. I think he was legitimately afraid she'd leave him and take the baby.

    Agreed, totally. They just don't have any trust or communication as a couple, which is why they're so wrong for each other. But I think Danny loves that baby and he loves the idea of them as a family. I think he's too insecure and damaged to really know whether he's in love with Lindsay or not, but I do think he married her in good faith, even if it comes from a place of insecurity and fear rather than healthy love.

    To me, "I don't like where you're going with this" (emphasis mine) made it clear. She just didn't get the hint and kept pushing.

    Well, what Lindsay did in "Silicone" was pretty funny--I think Flack can appreciate a good joke, even if he's the butt of it!

    Yeah, I think Flack's problem with Lindsay would have to do more with D/L than with her personally. I mean, he seems to find her somewhat annoying at times, but the jerking around of Danny would really get under his skin, and I think affect how he feels about her overall. But he's not going to say, "You're being mean to Danny!" because he figures that's Danny's battle to fight.

    That he's telling Danny that he should piss Lindsay off more often doesn't suggest the highest opinion of Lindsay, but I agree it says more about D/L than Lindsay herself. I definitely took that as a clear sign that Flack wasn't a fan of the relationship at that point. I doubt he is now, but I think he sees how happy Danny is about the baby and accepts that. More than anyone else in Danny's life, Flack really seems to just want to see Danny happy.

    I don't think it's downright "I hate you!" or anything nearly that extreme--I think sometimes he just finds her annoying. And she is kind of annoying sometimes. :lol: I think he gets in little digs that reflect that.

    No, I agree, but a crush is a crush--she knew he had feelings for her, and had shown her concern on many occasions. I think she knew she could get him to take the mother, and so she got him to do that. It felt very manipulative to me because she didn't just ask--she had a petulant, childish outburst and got him to do it based on that.

    It has been ages since I've seen "Crime & Misdemeanor" but didn't Danny ask Aiden to stay on the case? I actually do remember being annoyed with him for getting her to partake in something Mac wouldn't approve of--too much to ask of a friend, really. But Danny being wrong in C&M doesn't justify Lindsay being wrong in OH. And I doubt either Hawkes or Adam would have put up with her BS the way Danny did. Well, Adam maybe, but the way she treats Adam is a whole other issue!
     
  2. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I know, I remember how strange I found it because he'd so quickly told Flack what was going on at the beginning of "AitF", but seemed confused when Flack immediately wanted to help. It's like he half-expected Flack would have his back, but also half-expected that Flack wouldn't want anything to do with him, and it's so strange because I've noticed he also seems to use that approach with almost everyone who's ever cared about him. (Mac, even Louie to an extent, and maybe Aiden.)

    I think the reasons for Lindsay and Danny's insecurities come from different places (hence the appearance of strength-despite-no-strong-friends in one, and the appearance of fragility-despite-tons-of-emotional-support in the other). But the insecurities themselves seem to come from the same place. I don't think Lindsay shuts people out because she doesn't want to get close to them, I think it's because she doesn't know how. She's indicated so many times that she'd want to. I keep coming back to things like the way she was lashing-out-angry about what happened to Stella in "All Access" - she obviously cared, but I don't think it even occurred to her to pick up the phone after the drama was over and ask Stella how she was doing. Or the way she told Stella she could use a friend in "Silent Night" - but as soon as Stella told her she had one, she basically ran. And then there are things like the card she left Danny in The Lying Game - showing she cared, but not telling him squat about what was going on - or the scene in Mac's office, or the awkward Stella/Lindsay hospital conversation in "Greater Good", or even the way she slipped Danny the DNA results in "Run Silent", but disappeared when things got emotional. Quite frankly, I don't think Danny would've been able to attract her at all if she didn't want to get close to people.

    It really seems to me that someone who's that obviously desperate to reach out and try (even when she keeps failing) to show she cares...really shouldn't have such a problem when people try to get close to her. Unless she, like Danny, believed that no one would or should want to get close to her.

    I thought the same thing! About Danny/Aiden, I meant, I definitely saw something building there...which makes me think they literally trotted Lindsay onto the show when Aiden left to continue the love-storyline. One way or another, Danny was going to have a long-term girlfriend. :lol: But I do think you're right about the series of events at the end of season 2 having an effect on Danny's clinginess to Lindsay. That actually brings up an interesting point...if Aiden had lived, or Flack hadn't gotten caught in that building, would Danny have been fine when Lindsay started pulling away? He didn't seem to be so interested in her up until that point, so I wonder. (Btw, quick question - is Louie alive??)

    See, I keep reading online that the speech was supposed to be a "wake-up" call for Danny, but I'm really doubting that Lindsay gave that speech expecting it to solve anything. Maybe the first part - because she did seem to pause halfway through, like she expected him to start talking. But it became more than clear that that wasn't going to happen, and then after she let the real bomb drop, she took off. If she was waiting for happy-perfect!Danny to come back after the speech, I think she would've stuck around.

    I think she would've said something like Mac recommended had she been in a calmer frame of mind, because a lot of what she said sounded like an angry derivative of "I'm not good at this kind of thing" (or, "I'm mad at myself") and "I do want to support you" (or, "My mistake for thinking you might need someone to lean on"). She spent a lot of time emphasizing how she knew what it was like to grieve (read, knew what he was going through), and how she'd never expected him not to - she was definitely angry, which yeah, was insensitive. But she focused on all the wrong things if she was just concerned with herself, and not with him.

    True, maybe it was just eagerness to get her to drop the birthday issue, which she did. I saw eagerness either way, and I think that would've gone a longer way than a belated birthday present if Lindsay just wanted to get back to the status quo. He totally shouldn't have been making excuses, though, I agree with that - he should've told her what the problem with her was right there. She did drop the birthday issue after his defensiveness, and never brought it up again, which seems to indicate she knew birthday shopping probably wasn't high on his priority list - I can't imagine she wouldn't have gotten any other messages he might have sent her. But this comes back to communication.

    I actually remember him being a little more defensive in "On the Job", demanding to know who was badmouthing him (rather than "accepting" that they had a reason to badmouth him), and insisting he'd done the right thing. He only got head-hanging when Mac told him he was off the promotion grid, didn't he? In RND, the only thing that should've been that guilt-inducing (in terms of Danny's insecurities) would've been Lindsay's "mad at myself" line. The "shallow girlfriend" was not the image Lindsay presented with the complaint about her birthday, because it was clear from the first that it was never about her birthday. It was the image Danny saw, though, and I don't think that was down to Lindsay; because she was way too jokey about the birthday thing and any genuine anger she may have had over it was gone in seconds. If Danny had been giving her the credit he gave her in past seasons, he would've picked up on that. He picked up on the cause for Lindsay's anger in Stealing Home and All Access - he didn't just assume she was having "girl problems" or anything.

    Yeah, she was all "Catch up by reading this", and walked away. It was passive-aggressive - she should've just let him have it right there, if she had a problem with him. But it really seemed like it was more about getting away from him quickly (before she said or did something even more unprofessional) than it was about letting Danny know she was pissed. I think if she just wanted to let Danny know she was pissed, she might've ignored Danny completely, given the folder to Hawkes and asked him to catch Danny up. That's what she did toward the end of the episode. When Stella and Danny came in to get info on where the kidnapper was, I kept noticing how Lindsay refused to even look at or speak directly to Danny (even when he was the one asking the questions!), until he made her look at him. She really is fourteen sometimes.

    It was a sweet gesture...it made me facepalm a lot, but it was definitely sweet. It was, however, kind of obvious to me that he was barely stopping himself from just running away...Lindsay seemed to get the same kind of impression (the weird way she kept watching him). Maybe he didn't mean that to come across to Lindsay, but it really seemed like he was terrified that she'd say yes. He actually seemed a bit relieved when she said no, if you ask me - definitely stung, but it didn't seem like "no" was the answer he'd been dreading. That's why I saw Lindsay's "no" as intended-to-be-reassuring, more than anything. But yeah, I agree she has to learn to stick around and explain the reasons she's giving him space.

    Honestly, I'd find it hard to blame him if he hadn't made it look like he still wanted her. I know Lindsay definitely started the yo-yo-ing, but she pushed for him (S2), then pulled away (S3 beginning), then pushed for him again only when it seemed like he really wanted it too. I get that it might not have been his intention to send that message when he showed up in Montana, but seriously, Montana is like 2000 miles away from New York and Danny flew it on no sleep, on a complete whim. Even for a romantic gesture, that would seem slightly over-the-top; I definitely can't blame Lindsay for thinking it might've meant something huge. And then he just didn't correct her when she kept going with that impression; maybe he was still deciding whether he wanted her or not, but it would've been nice to see him hit the "not" point before they got to the pool table. Or even slightly afterward. I totally think Lindsay would've pulled back if he'd been giving even slight indications that he didn't want her that early.

    I definitely agree he was legitimately afraid of that, and so married her with good intentions. But oh my gosh, he handled it in completely the wrong way. Lindsay's actually more likely to leave him and take the baby now than I think she would've been before; at least before, she didn't have to constantly wonder about Danny's feelings for her - because the only feelings that were important were his for the baby. And knowing how well they communicate if any of this ever comes up...first roadblock they hit, I really see this marriage crumbling.

    When has Lindsay ever not gotten the hint when people are annoyed/bothered by her? She usually goes on the offensive and assumes they are bothered by her even when they really might not be. (Ie, snapping Danny's head off in Zoo York when he asked if she needed help - she wasn't unjustified there, but really, he was almost trying to be nice.) I think if Flack were sending any hints, she would've gotten them and snapped back.

    LOL, true (although I thought the "Houdini" thing was pretty funny, too)...but it was in public. And why only threaten to get her back, why not actually do something in retaliation?

    I still think I'd say Flack's problem isn't with Lindsay at all, but with D/L. It's definitely possible to like two people just fine, but think the romantic relationship between them is toxic, that they just don't work together. And I think if D/L were having an effect on his perception of Lindsay in general, we probably would see him indicate that. It wouldn't even be fighting Danny's battle for him - it would just be a case of doing something simple, like not calling her Linds, or giving her a slight cold shoulder (rather than the odd friendliness) when she and Danny should be on the outs, or when it really looks like she's been taking advantage of him. Realistically, if it were D/L that's reflecting badly on Lindsay for Flack, he really should assume she wouldn't give a damn about Danny, because that's the impression she really gave off in S3. But he never assumes that.

    That Flack was implying it was Danny who'd been in the wrong, rather than Lindsay, suggested a high-enough opinion of Lindsay. (Why assume it was Danny who'd done something worthy of pissing Lindsay off? Why not assume it was Lindsay who'd been the problem - which, in this fight, she at least halfway was?! This is what I'm really getting at when it comes to Flack and D/L, and why it kind of irks me a bit - I don't know if this is just another case of Lindsay's Mary-Sue-ness forbidding other characters to ever see her as being in the wrong, but you'd think the one character who'd be personally invested in pointing out the problems of D/L - Danny's best friend - wouldn't take every opportunity to act like Lindsay was the saint in D/L. It's why I turn to Flack/Lindsay fiction so much - at least there, Lindsay's relationship issues aren't glossed-over.)

    I agree about the childish outburst, but I think in that scene she got him to take the mother because of the reason she gave him, not because of the outburst -- he did snap back once she started being petulant.

    In "C&M", Aiden was about to give up, and then Danny said something like "you bailing on me?" - Aiden got defensive (telling him he knew she had his back), but then stayed on the case. He didn't really ask. LOL, yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. But I wasn't really comparing on basis of D and L both being in the wrong, I meant more that Danny expected Aiden to have his back because she was his friend, and so guilt-tripped her using that. And Lindsay thought Danny would take the mother not because he had feelings for her, but because he was her friend - and yeah, she used that. I don't know, to me, playing on friendship doesn't seem as bad, because at least they know they're on an even footing with the other person. I just can't see it as manipulation designed specifically for Danny, because I definitely think she would've asked Hawkes or Adam had it been them. It's doubtful they would've put up with the BS, but I think she would've tried anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  3. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    He wants the help, wants them to care but is always surprised when they do.

    I can see that, though her way of wanting to get close to people and failing is so off-putting at times, like when she snaps at people or has childish outbursts like she did in "All Access" and "Silent Night." You'd think after all the negative fallback, she'd have learned something by now.

    I don't really see her having that issue the way he does, though. She seems ready to believe that Mac cares about her and even though they've never really become good friends, she seemed to accept that Stella cared after "Silent Night."

    We still don't know about Louie, but it seems like the answer is yes. Carmine and Lenkov both have said yes in interviews before, or at least probably. Either way...I think the loss did make Danny clingier than he might have been otherwise. Who knows if he would have even acted on the flirtation with Lindsay if she hadn't been in danger in "Not What It Looks Like." I always got the sense a lot of that came out of, "I don't want to lose another person in my life/see another person I care about hurt."

    If it wasn't to solve anything, then what was it for? I think she just wanted to hurt him, the way she perceived he hurt her by not coming to her. And that's just cruel.

    "I'm mad at myself" and "my mistake" just seem like digs to me. If she's really mad at herself, why isn't this an internal dialogue with herself? It wasn't because she's not really mad at herself--she'd mad at him for not acting according to the way she thought he should. The "I'm mad at myself" and "my mistake" were just snotty ways to get digs in at him. "My bad for trusting you" really means "you're a louse" not "My mistake." Maybe a little of the latter, but mostly the former. It's an insult, directed at him more than her.

    I just didn't see eagerness--mostly excuses and trying to get her to drop it. If she knew birthday shopping wasn't high on his list, why tease him about it at all? She was upset about it.

    No, but that anger wasn't personally directed at him. Maybe Lindsay wasn't really upset about her birthday, but that was what she communicated to Danny, and it did come across as shallow. Why was she harping on that if what she really wanted was for him to talk to her? Even if we the audience know she isn't being shallow, Danny didn't necessarily, and honestly, I don't think she deserved any more credit than he gave her if she wasn't reaching out to him--and was instead resorting to complaining about him forgetting her birthday.

    She's totally fourteen a lot of the time. But I saw shoving the folder into his hands in front of a co-worker as totally a way to let him know she was pissed. Sometimes you storm out because you want someone to follow you, and I think that's what she was doing there. Danny's certainly followed her out enough in the past--she probably expected him to do so then. He didn't, and that probably made her even more pissed.

    Yeah, true. It was a sweet gesture that he was just making because he thought he should, but it was also obvious he meant it. Lindsay's no wasn't meant to be mean--it was even delivered kindly--but her walking away without explaining herself just came off as cruel.

    Oh, I totally see how she interpreted him coming to Montana as something more, but I also can see how in Danny's eyes it wasn't that at all. He didn't exactly correct her, but if we believe Carmine that Danny didn't put out until "Snow Day," he at least hung back. And when they did finally sleep together, she was the one who made the move on him. With Danny it's just so hard to tell what he really wants. I don't think he wanted that promotion in season one and I don't think he really wanted Lindsay, either. The only thing I can say for sure that Danny's ever really wanted for himself is that baby.

    I can, too, unless the writers just totally smooth things over. But I think if they wanted to make it look like he was in love with Lindsay and that came from a healthy place, his dialogue would have been scripted differently. There was the "I don't know" in Mac's office and then the whole thing about him being antsy about her leaving for Montana--I just really saw the whole thing as a fear of abandonment/losing the baby. None of it seemed happy or healthy to me.

    Lindsay misses those hints all the time, or presses on in the face of them! Otherwise, she wouldn't do the experiments/be long-winded when Mac and/or Stella are waiting for an explanation. So I totally think she misses it or doesn't care when she's pushing a little too hard on something.

    He did make the "my wife's not well" comment, but who knows, maybe he just forgot.

    True, though like I said, I've seen coldness from him towards her. They joke on the job, but it just never goes beyond that. He probably didn't assume Lindsay didn't care about Danny in "Snow Day" because she showed up--she was there. But he didn't look pleased at all when she dragged Danny off after he wanted to bring EMS to Danny.

    I think it was just him teasing Danny--the same way Danny made jokes about his girlfriend in "You Only Die Once." He said it with a big grin on his face. It also makes me think Danny told him the Danny version of the story, which was certainly, "It's all my fault" because that was how Lindsay was acting and certainly what Danny would believe. Flack's joke was almost praise--he approved, Danny should do it more often. I think he was trying to make Danny feel better, and get his point across. Pissing Lindsay off/getting her out of the picture is a good thing.

    Of course, I wish Flack would say/do more, but I do think that's not who he is--he only minds Danny's business when he needs to protect him from danger. If Lindsay starts beating Danny, Flack will definitely step in. Short of that, I just don't see him doing that.

    Yeah, but the move immediately put him on the defensive. She snapped, he snapped, she played the "poor me" card and he gave him.

    And that's not really fair either, but Aiden was free to say no. It's different when you like someone--you're less likely to say no. I don't think Danny ever suspected Aiden had feelings for him, and if he had, I doubt he would have pulled that.

    I really don't think she would have pulled the outburst on Hawkes or Adam. Maybe Adam, because she's rude/condescending to him sometimes, but Hawkes will argue with her and might have said, "It's the job, you need to do it." I don't see her playing on the friendship--I think by that point she knew Danny was sensitive and emotional, and knew that would get to him. Coupled with the fact that he'd just told her two episodes ago that he liked her, it felt really manipulative of her.
     
  4. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    To me, the fact that Lindsay usually aims and misses makes me sympathetic to her. It's the fact that she sometimes (very few times, but sometimes) aims and gets it that stops me from seeing it as a complete annoyance: like the thing with the lilies for the vic's wife in Rush to Judgement, or even the steadfast support she gave Danny in the Blue Flu episode.

    I absolutely think she has that issue - even now she seems hesitant around Mac, what with the fake "I'm fine" when he asked her if she was alright in "Like Water for Murder", and then marching away immediately after her "it was stupid to get involved with a coworker" comment. He was sticking up for her in front of Quinn all through that episode, yet she still seemed to take his reprimand rather harshly. And I think if she'd accepted that Stella cared, it wouldn't have been an issue for her to just come out and tell Stella she was the one who was pregnant in The Triangle. Especially since it wasn't like she'd be able to hide it much longer. Maybe she believed Stella would care in Greater Good when she started talking about her fears - but I'm not sure if she was doing that just because she needed to spill to somebody, or if she trusted Stella. They didn't really interact much after that episode.

    I can see that, too. "Not What it Looks Like" was funny to me, because Danny's reaction went beyond what I thought was the extent of his feelings for Lindsay - but it makes a lot of sense that, if he thought he was going to lose her too, it'd probably make him extra-clingy.

    Honestly, I think it was Lindsay blowing up, full-stop. I think she was lashing out, because she clearly never planned on saying any of that stuff. But I still say if it was solely about hurting Danny the way he'd hurt her, she could've and would've gone lighter on the parts that made her look pathetic and clingy. Again, he basically dumped her after the speech, if you ask me - so it was just her who had her cards all laid out on the table, and still gained nothing.

    It probably was an internal dialogue with herself until Danny made it external. It really seemed like she was privately stewing, rather than waiting for Danny to call her on her bad mood. So I think she was mad at herself. I still come back to this - how is "I'm mad at myself" supposed to make Danny feel bad? It didn't - he looked right at her when she said it. I'll agree "my mistake" sounds more hostile, though not nearly as hostile as "it was stupid to get involved with you" - which we know she can and has said before - and would have made it very clear that the problem was with him, not with herself.

    Like I've said before, she left herself wide open with that speech. There was no need for that, if it was just to get a hit at Danny. He's injured by direct insults just as much (if not more) than he is by indirect ones, whether or not they make him defensive. She could've gotten those angry-shots in without making herself look pathetic in the process...and I think she really did make herself look pathetic, even in Danny's eyes, though he was chasing her again a few episodes later. He invited her over in Personal Foul without even a hint of a love confession - and then got her to marry him the same way. He hasn't been doing it to be cruel, I think he's done everything with the best of intentions, but quite frankly he's been shamelessly using that love declaration against her since the moment she said it.

    She was teasing him about the birthday thing - in a way I could easily see her doing in early S4, if she'd had her birthday then. What she wanted was to talk to him - and when she tried that (RND), he assumed she just wanted to harp on about her birthday, never mind that it seems counterproductive to buy lunch for your boyfriend, just to gripe about how pissed you are with him - and used it as an excuse to do what he'd done every time she tried to reach out; not meet her halfway. I totally agree Danny saw her as shallow. I disagree that it was justified, though. Because while it was an odd thing to focus on when he was grieving, she never approached the birthday thing any differently than she's approached anything else she's ever teased him about. I totally think Lindsay had a right to be angry about Danny seeing her as shallow. Whether or not she deserved more credit, he has given it to her before; that's where I really hold him accountable.

    I honestly can't remember a time when Lindsay has stormed off expecting, or wanting Danny to follow her. 9 times out of 10 he can barely find her after she's disappeared, because she's (imo) purposely trying to hide. And then that 1 time out of 10, she's just resigned/reluctant because he has found her and is demanding an explanation. Even if she was pissed in that hallway scene, I think she was storming off because she wanted to get away. She was definitely angry in the office scene, but even there Danny had to needle her with four remarks before she got started.

    I guess I can see how this could be classed among the other scenes where she just ditches Danny. I've just never classed it there before, because I was honestly surprised when Danny seemed to need an explanation for why Lindsay was saying no. I mean, I'm unsure of just how much Danny meant it - it really didn't seem like "no" was the answer he'd been dreading, although he was hurt when he got it. I honestly think he just would've been terrified if she'd said "yes".

    Yeah, it's practically impossible to tell what Danny wants. I agree about the promotion, and I certainly agree about Lindsay...but I really really think he should've figured that out before he married the girl! At the very least, he better start figuring this stuff out in Season 6 - because he at least has one thing he truly wants...maybe it'll help him distinguish between things he actually wants and things he only thinks he wants. In retrospect, I can definitely see how Danny might've just intended the Montana gesture to be a friendly one (I wish the writers had just left it at a friendly gesture), but that's part of what's frustrating me - I get that he has insecurities and maybe wasn't sure about Lindsay, but if he's also got this automatic trigger to just blindly react to someone's attraction, he's obviously going to leave the wrong impression, and it's really not the other person's fault for picking up that wrong impression. That really just seems like common sense to me; if he's not attracted anymore, don't show her that he's attracted.

    He might've hung back before Snow Day, but if he did, I think either Lindsay was also hanging back, or Danny wasn't hanging back enough (he certainly seemed fine flirting with her leading up to Snow Day). Because I really can't see Lindsay making a move if it didn't seem like Danny was into her. Even in "Bad Blood", when she was just starting to show her crush - after Danny kind of snapped at her, she withdrew and didn't reveal a hint of the crush until after Danny had asked her to lunch in City of the Dolls (and even then, she turned it down).

    Yeah, so I'm hoping the writers at least recognize the ginormous issues still present in D/L - I agree, if they were writing D/L just to smooth things over, they probably would've made Danny appear more sincere in his declarations of love, or at least give some indication that the marriage was at least somewhat about Lindsay, rather than just Lucy. I'm still half-crossing my fingers for divorce, or some other kind of break-up (I mean, if the writers recognize the issues still present with D/L, it's still possible that they might see only one way to solve said issues...the same resolution they were about to use at the end of Season 4).

    :lol: LOL, true...but I meant more that Lindsay tends not to miss irritation that's borne out of true (or perceived) hostility. She's totally fine bugging and pressing people whom she's fairly certain don't dislike her (Mac, Stella, Danny now, Adam even...and imo, Flack). She gets outright mean with people like Officer Murphy in "Dancing with Fishes", or Danny in Zoo York - people who've outright shown (or at least hinted) that they don't like her, even if they didn't mean to hint it. I really think if she sensed similar hostility from Flack, it would show.

    I totally have to watch Snow Day again...I don't remember Flack's expression when Lindsay dragged Danny off. But I just think that, strictly from how protective Flack usually is of Danny and what he must have seen in Season 3, if D/L were influencing his opinion of Lindsay it shouldn't even get to jokes on the job, let alone nicknames or first names or whatnot. There are people as protective as Flack is of Danny, whom it literally takes forever to convince that you care about their friend, no matter how many times you show it. And Lindsay's S3 track record, from outside eyes, would probably appear to be something like 15 on the Doesn't-Care side, and 2 on the Does-Care side. Flack is a reasonable guy, but it's almost ridiculous how...well, willing he is to believe Lindsay cares given that track record.

    I took it as a light joke, but on some level it still bothered me. Because I did consider it from that point-of-view - that Flack might've just heard the version where it was all Danny's fault, and was actually expressing approval, telling Danny it was a good thing. But he's Danny's best friend, and I just really think he could've expressed that approval without feeding the insane motivation that drove Danny throughout that entire episode when it came to Lindsay: that he'd done something wrong, and so had to fix it any way he could. He had done something wrong, but so had Lindsay - and Flack knew that, I think.

    [Maybe it was easier for him to see Lindsay "in the right" because while Danny might've missed Lindsay's worry, Flack saw it firsthand - but I think Flack did, on some level, know of Lindsay's issues with communication and reaching out. First thing he asked when she came to him about Danny in "AitF" was whether she'd called Danny; like he honestly thought she'd come tattling to him on the off chance that Danny wasn't just running late to work.] It would've been nice to see him try to get Danny to see that it wasn't just his fault. I loved the joke, and from a F/M-fan perspective I thought it was sort of cute. But looking from Danny's side, I don't know...it bugged me a little that Flack was taking the same stance almost everyone on the show seemed to be taking. Lindsay had enough people in her corner.

    I'm cutting corners again! I'll come back for the rest of the post later, sorry! :)
     
  5. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    I can see that, though those are all from this season. So maybe she is improving--and really, for the most part I found her far less odious this season than I have in past ones!--but it sure took her a while.

    I think she felt bad, but her first impulse was to try to put the blame on Danny, yet another thing that has never sat well with me. I don't think Lindsay holds herself accountable enough, which is another thing that grates about her. She's got something of a victim mentality--another Mary Sue quality. At least she finally owned up in that episode.

    I don't think they're really friends. The old adage really is true: to have a friend, you have to be a friend. With the exception of Danny, Lindsay has never, ever, not once stuck herself out for another character on the show, even though others have done that for her. So there is that bridge, but it's entirely Lindsay's fault because she never extends herself. The fact that she has done so for Danny does show she can do it, but with Danny it's not entirely unselfish, because she wants him.

    I didn't see him dumping her at all. I thought her "I need to find a way to get over it" was basically her dumping him. Or being done with him if they weren't together.

    "I'm mad at myself because I've fallen in love with you" is absolutely a condemnation of him. It implies that that was a mistake, and obviously that reflects poorly on Danny. Knowing how insecure Danny is, there's no way he wouldn't take that personally.

    Interesting--how do you see him using it against her? I think he's been aware of it the whole time, and has never forgotten it, but he's really just used it to give her what she wants--himself. I don't think there's been a drop of malice in his actions.

    Just because he gave her more credit before doesn't mean he should keep doing so in the face of behavior that contradicts his previous impressions of her. From his point of view, she came off as shallow. Here's someone who had no problem telling him she was worried after the fact in "The Deep" but when he's practically bleeding metaphorically all over the floor for everyone to see all the person who is supposed to care about him most can do is complain about her birthday? Yeah, it was teasing, but Danny didn't need the old banter then. He needed someone who cared about him, and showed him that. And she didn't do that, so yeah, he probably came to the conclusion that she was shallow. Though I hesitate to use that word--that was her word, not his. I think he just came to the conclusion that she didn't really care about him deeply.

    She comes off as such a drama queen sometimes. In "All Access" I don't think she was adverse to him following her to see if she was okay. It's hard for me to imagine she didn't expect him to, given that she chose to storm out in the middle of an interrogation. I think in the scene with Hawkes, she wanted him to know she was pissed. Whether she expected him to follow her or not, I guess we can't say for sure. But I don't think she was just trying to get away.

    I'm sure he would have. But I think when he asked her, he meant it. Danny is many things, but insincere isn't one of them.

    Oh, agreed, totally! But as someone said a while back, I think he sees Lindsay and Lucy as a package deal. I don't know that he'll ever properly distinguish there.

    I don't think it was that he wasn't attracted, but I do think she put him through the ringer and I'm not sure he was ready to jump in the way she was.

    I think she took a shot, but yeah, they were playing pool at his place--I'm sure she had a reasonable expectation that he'd give it up. :lol:

    I always kind of thought she'd turned him down because of how obvious it was she liked him when she held his hand and looked into his eyes. I thought that threw her off, and made her think she'd given away too much. And again, Danny seemed to be reacting to her desire. But she had him meet her for drinks at that bar a few episodes later to watch Mac play. I think she liked controlling the pace.

    Maybe, though now that they're a happy family I imagine they'll stay that way. I guess divorce is possible down the road, but for some reason I kind of doubt it. I think it's all going to be smoothed/glossed over.

    Officer Murphy was a stranger to her, though, as was Danny at the time. Same with the suspects she bristles with. Flack's different--he's a colleague. Mac has seemed genuinely frustrated with her not moving faster or experimenting on him before ("I'm your boss, not your guinea pig" comes to mind) but that never phases her.

    I guess so, though thinking about it more, I wonder if he wasn't just so worried about Danny that he would have talked to any familiar face. I still come back to the fact that he didn't look at her when he told her that Danny didn't sound good.

    Believe me, I wish Flack had said, "Danny, she sucks. She's terrible to you and not worth your time." :lol: At the same time, that joke was very in line with Flack's sense of humor and also a way I think he felt comfortable bringing it up with Danny. I guess I can see how it kind of "blames" Danny, but I don't think Flack meant it that way. I actually saw it as kind of ribbing, like "Gee, what did you 'do' to piss her off this time?" A bit of irony there, implying that Flack didn't really think that Lindsay was justified in being pissed off with Danny. I don't think if Flack had really taken Danny's claim that Lindsay was mad at him and it was his fault literally, he would have made that joke. It almost seemed like he was making fun of her, really, and taking some delight in the fact that Danny's actions had made Lindsay mad, whether justified or not.
     
  6. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    From the rest of the post I didn't get around to before: :)

    If he was already on the defensive, why cave? That's the thing - I don't think anyone else would've caved, but I absolutely think Lindsay would've snapped in that same way to anyone else, and then played the same "poor me" card. Anyone else would've been on the defensive, too - that's why I think it was the reason, rather than the outburst, that made Danny give in.

    Aiden wasn't free to say no, not without making Danny feel like she'd abandoned him. I don't see much difference between the feelings of a good friend and the feelings of a crush - either way, you don't want to let the other person down, or make yourself look bad in their eyes. Maybe a crush does make it less likely that you'll want to look bad to the other person...only it totally seemed like Danny was prepared to say no to Lindsay, too, until she gave him her reasons.

    Lindsay had an outburst and then left the scene in Silent Night under Hawkes' watch, right in front of his eyes without giving much of a reason. She wasn't making Hawkes do anything, yeah, but an outburst is an outburst. I could see her pulling the same thing had it been Hawkes, and not Danny in that scene in Oedipus Hex - I just don't think it would've worked, had it been Hawkes. I still think she would've tried, though. Like she would've tried with Adam. It's a question mark, though, on whether Adam would've caved.

    It was Danny who made her spill the reason for why she needed him to take the mother, and he just snapped back at her when she had her outburst (it didn't get to him). She had to ask him twice. That's why I don't think she was playing on the crush, rather than the friendship - I don't think the crush was even able to be played on.

    From the second post!

    True, it took forever. :lol: But yeah, she seems to be very slowly getting better at it. It's an interesting mini-character-arc I've really liked from the first, actually...she's been horrible at reaching out since her first season, but in baby steps she's slowly been improving (I thought she was better in S3 than S2, and then slightly better in S4 than S3).

    Did she try to put blame on Danny? I thought she was just trying to make excuses for why it was okay that she left out the evidence - Danny could've put it away - not blame him for the fact that she left it out. Although she did seem to realize it was a bad excuse, anyway.

    Very true...Lindsay has yet to form a healthy connection with anyone, really. She doesn't know how to be a friend; but I still think the reason she didn't tell Stella the truth in The Triangle is partly about the friend thing. She didn't trust Stella to care. It's her fault that she and Stella aren't quite friends, but because of that she didn't feel like Stella would be interested.

    Well, true, I don't think "after" the speech was when Danny dumped her...I think he might've decided they were over long before that, only he didn't let Lindsay know. She'd finally gotten the message by the time she made her "let that go" comment; but I really did think Danny's "I'm sorry, we should talk" during that last D/L scene in RND was him making things official. So did she, apparently.

    It still left her wide open, in a way she really didn't need to leave herself. "It was stupid of me for falling for you" - that would be a condemnation of him, that would also make it clear the mistake was with him, and no blame could be put on herself. So why not phrase it that way? I'm sure Danny took her "mad at myself" remark personally (although he didn't really seem to show that). I just think if she'd meant him to take it personally, she would've made a remark that didn't reflect so badly on herself.

    Well, we discussed earlier how Lindsay's telling Danny she was in love with him was the only thing that made him take an interest in her again. In his mind, she was the only one who'd ever feel that way about him, so he'd better hang on to her. Which is great for him, but the fact is he doesn't feel that way about her, and she knows it. But he still never lets it go, so she can't even go off to find someone who could feel that way about her. He keeps leaves her with the hope that he does feel the same way; that's why I think on some (unconscious) level, he's seeing her as pathetic. He tends to give her that hope only when he's terrified that she might leave.

    He isn't giving her what she wants - himself; he hasn't done that since Snow Day. Maybe the first episode of Season 4, if we're being generous. If we're supposed to see Personal Foul as the night they got back together, then we also have to assume that things were awkward as hell between them until the day Lindsay told him she was pregnant. Even at work, when they were in scenes together, they didn't talk at all. They actually got along better during the brief period they were split up than they did when they supposedly got back together. It's why I'm really more inclined to see the night in Personal Foul as a one-off thing, rather than the re-starting of D/L.

    And then once Lindsay told him she was pregnant, it became very obviously all about the baby. Like I said, he dangles hope when he's afraid she'll leave. The first time he ever told her he loved her was after she told him she wasn't going to marry him - I agree with you, I think it was totally borne out of fear that she'd leave him...so he started making sure she thought she had a reason to stay. I don't think he's doing it out of malice, not at all - I doubt he even realizes he's doing it. But the fact is he's afraid of something, and he's using a weakness of hers to make sure that something doesn't happen. That weakness makes her pathetic, and I think he has to know it because he already knows he can use it.

    Oh no, we're so back to the two-part post things :p Part 2 coming in a minute!
     
  7. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Honestly, I think he was seeing her as shallow from the moment she became his girlfriend. Because I agree he was bleeding metaphorically for everyone to see - but Lindsay was practically the only person he didn't let see (or hear) him like that, and he ran from her the one time she almost came close to seeing him like that (the morgue). He ignored her calls that morning in "AitF" and never found out she'd taken his shift (I really think the only way he couldn't have found out about that was if he'd been shutting out/ignoring her entirely). He didn't welcome her concern in "The Deep", and the things I've listed above really make me think he wasn't (or wouldn't) welcome her concern with Ruben. And I think he would've welcomed her concern in both cases if she'd still been in the status she had in Seasons 2 and 3 - good friend, not girlfriend. He was fine when she asked him how he was in "Run Silent", even telling her that "he'd had better days". And he had even less reason to think she'd care back then.

    That's so true, she is such a drama queen. I don't think she exactly hated it when Danny followed her out of the room in "All Access", but I definitely don't think she was pleased - she was ignoring him when he was calling her the whole time, and then practically bit his head off when he finally caught her arm. In that case, I think she lost it, and knew it - and so was vanishing to regroup, before Danny put the brakes on that plan. And she was angry when he stopped her.

    Well...I don't think he's insincere to be mean or even petty, but he's been insincere plenty of times. Especially with Lindsay. Like, all the times he tells her he loves her? I think he meant his proposal, but only because he was absolutely determined to do the "right thing". Again, a reason wholly unconnected with Lindsay.

    Hmm, I was hoping that after Lucy came out of Lindsay, it would be easier to distinguish, to be honest. :lol: I can see how it might be more difficult for Danny, given his issues, but people distinguish between the love they have for their kid and the love they may or may not have for their spouse, all the time.

    I know he wasn't ready to jump in - that became extremely obvious, very early in Season 4. It's why I really, really wish he hadn't just gone with the flow - again, automatic trigger to just respond to people's interest, but it doesn't make it okay. I can't believe this was the first time Danny's ever been roped into a relationship he didn't want, so I really think he should've learned something about just saying no.

    On the "City of Dolls" eye-and-hand thing, I can see that...but yeah, I still think it comes back to her backing off when she thought she was showing too much, and he didn't seem to want her back. Or she wasn't sure he wanted her the same way. She had him meet her for drinks later, yeah, but that was after she knew he was at least a little bit attracted (this was after Risk). She's way more assertive than Danny, so I think she does like controlling the pace, but I can't see her pushing if she had no indication that he also wanted it.

    Argh, they are so not a happy family. :shifty: Maybe Lucy, though I think if things continue on the way they are now she's going to grow into one messed-up little kid. Seriously, though, I don't know how much they can smooth/gloss D/L over while still keeping it sustainable - I mean, it's the writers who have included all those little things that indicated D/L was still not right even in Season 5 (like the text message Lindsay sent Danny to tell him Lucy was a girl).

    I think Officer Murphy was also a colleague, though a distant one - how else did she know his name, it wasn't like he introduced himself. As was Danny. Flack, during the times he's arguably been irritated with her (I'm still iffy on People With Money), was a distant colleague to her too...I don't think she'd talked to or worked with him more than twice at that point. If he was hostile, she would've picked up on it. Mac has been outright frustrated with her, even in "Dancing with Fishes", where he barely knew her. But even then, she knew perfectly well that Mac at least admired her - his praise during "Zoo York". She knew he wasn't hostile. And of course, now Mac has supported her enough times for her to know he doesn't dislike her, no matter how frustrated he gets with her experiments. That's why I think she's comfortable not letting his irritation phase her.

    I guess it could come back to being comfortable with a familiar face, though (and ack, I really have to get onto watching Snow Day again!) if he didn't look at her when he told her Danny wasn't doing well, I don't know if that can just come down to his being cold with her. Maybe that was just his general tense-ness in that situation. Or it could've been because he has a tough time looking people in the eye when he's delivering bad news (I've noticed he always seems to be conveniently looking at his notepad when he does that).

    LOL, but then that would be outright criticism of Lindsay. :p Which I don't think is his problem, but even if he'd said something like "You should go at it with Lindsay more often" - you know, just to casually imply it was both of their faults.

    Yeah, I definitely thought the joke was meant to imply that Flack didn't think Lindsay was justified in being pissed off - that's a large part of why I liked it, but even as it was making fun of her it wasn't in a harsh or even judgmental way. Which I also liked; it was a very "guy" joke, if that makes sense. I mean, I think if Lindsay had heard it, she wouldn't have done more than maybe roll her eyes - I don't think it would've even made her snap or go on the defensive. So...I don't know, I guess what bothered me most about it is that it kind of tipped the scales unevenly - implying that Linday wasn't justified in being pissed off, but that Danny had managed to do it anyway - whereas what had Lindsay done to Danny? Flack didn't even bring it up. I don't at all think he meant to blame Danny. But I do think the joke may have played a part in Danny's insane drive throughout PF.
     
  8. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    The outburst, the reason... either way, he did cave when he shouldn't have. It's her job--if she can't handle it, she shouldn't be doing it. I thought Lindsay should have been fired in season three, long before she got the chance to risk the lab's accreditation in season four.

    I don't know that Danny would have said no to Lindsay--I don't think she would have let him. If he hadn't taken her reason, she probably would have stormed out like she did in "Silent Night." But I think she knew he'd accept the reason, because again, she found out two episodes ago that he liked her.

    Didn't Hawkes ask something like, "You're leaving?" and sound surprised. In that situation, it wasn't on him though--it was all on her. I don't think anyone else would put up with her crap, but she knew Danny would because he has in the past ("All Access," "Manhattan Manhunt").

    I still think she played on the crush--that she should have been more sensitive to not making unreasonable requests of Danny knowing he had feelings for her. But regardless, even if was just the friendship she was playing on, she's still playing on something, and that's not cool.

    Yeah, she was making excuses, but her excuse was, "Well, Danny was in there when I left, I thought he would have--" or something like that, which basically shifted the blame to Danny. Why didn't Danny clean up her mess? Thank goodness she caught herself, but then she still kind of implicated him by saying it was stupid of her to get involved with someone she worked with (obviously Danny). Another "poor me" card--her victim mentality might be the thing I dislike the most about her.

    I'm not sure about that--Stella seemed plenty curious. I think Lindsay was just kind of being secretive about it at that point. If Stella isn't really someone she has a real personal connection with, why tell her something extremely personal?

    I always saw the "I'm sorry" as him starting to apologize for what he thought she thought he'd done wrong. But if it was him breaking up with her... when do you think he decided to he wanted her back? Or did he ever really want her back in that way and not as a friend? His invite in "Personal Foul" seemed intimate, and we know sex is what Danny uses to fix things, so it seems he wanted to patch things up at that point. When do you think he decided he wanted her back romantically?

    I think they're both about the same, really. They both say he wasn't worth falling for, and that she made a mistake in doing so. If she really wanted to go mea culpa on herself, she would have said something like what Mac told her to say, "I realize I haven't been there for you in the way you probably needed me to be."

    But would she? She really didn't seem to be moving on after their break up. Part of it was him not letting her, absolutely, but I think part of it is that it's hard to move on when you work with your ex everyday. And I think that "I've fallen in love with you" bit engendered a lot of guilt in Danny. I think he felt he should be in love with her if she is with him, and that it was his fault that she was in love with him. I think he realized he'd led her on at that point and wanted to make amends.

    Agreed, and I kind of think it would have been if Anna hadn't gotten pregnant and the whole baby story was concocted. I didn't see a real strong bond between them in season five at all either.

    Oh agreed completely. He's desperate to be a part of that baby's life, and Danny is a survivor--he'll resort to whatever he needs to do to make sure he doesn't lose that baby. I don't think it was a conscious or cruel thing, and really he seemed so sad and needy when he proposed both times that I don't see how she didn't see through it. I also think there's an element of giving her what she wants, or thinking he's doing that, in the same way he gave himself to Rikki when it seemed like it would help ease her pain just a little.

    I think his reaction in "The Deep" came from his own insecurities. Danny didn't ever really react when Mac put him on the promotion grid, either. Deep down, he doesn't really think he's worthy of praise or positive attention, so he never really seems to know how to react to it. I thought he took her seriously in "Boo"--just because he was shying away from her public romantic advances doesn't mean he wasn't caring towards her.

    He was already on his way out when she walked in in "Child's Play." Had he just seen her and said, "I'm out," yeah, I think she'd have a point in being mad. But he didn't--he was already upset and fleeing when she came in--he just didn't stop. And I honestly think he expected her to come to him, which is not an unreasonable expectation in when you're dating someone. She didn't, so he started to pull further away (ignoring calls in AitF) and by the time RND came around, she'd lost him.

    Total drama queen moment, and Danny always feeds it by following her and asking her what's wrong.

    I think he thinks he means it, or thinks if he says it enough he'll believe he means it.

    Most people do, but Danny is pretty damaged. I think he loved that baby right off, and wanted to give her a happy, complete family. It sounds like his parents are still married, but I don't think Danny had a happy, healthy childhood. I think he wanted that for his child, and that he's a bit blinded by that... which is why he's having trouble distinguishing between having Lucy in his life and having Lindsay and Lucy in his life.

    It's not okay, but again, it's part of his damage. The argument could just as easily be turned on Lindsay for taking advantage of that--for taking what she wants from Danny because she knows he'll give it up. I think both Lindsay and Rikki took advantage of him a bit in that way, though to be fair, he's always presented himself as more than willing. He really does seem to view sex as a way to fix things, which again, does make me think he might be damaged sexually in some way. The one love of his that he seems to be driven by completely has absolutely nothing to do with sex--the love he's got for his child.

    Oh definitely. She's definitely more assertive, and Danny responds to people's desire... so it's easy to see how it progressed.

    Agreed--I hope we really do see realism in their relationship, because to just smooth things over and have it be all happy joy joy seems so false.

    She had definitely seen Flack more than twice at that point, and socially, too--like at the bug dinner in "Fare Game" and drinks in "Heroes." I don't think he's distant at all, and I'm sure she's heard a lot about him from Danny.

    I think she's just not uncomfortable pushing sometimes. And maybe a little oblivious, too. That would definitely fit with her social awkwardness. Socially awkward people sometimes push too far with others without really realizing they're doing it.

    I haven't noticed the notepad thing, but I do know that he didn't really look at Lindsay in AitF when she was retrieving the number and they were calling the bail bondsman either. I just often sense coldness on his part for her, unless they're joking about something related to work.

    I think there was a bit of harshness to it--it was definitely a guy joke, but it really seemed to suggest that he didn't think too much of Lindsay's reasons for being pissed off--and also that he himself benefitted from it, which he clearly enjoyed. Maybe that's it--the clear glee he got from Lindsay's misery. Imagine how much he'd benefit if she was out of the picture altogether?
     
  9. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Ack, I'm so sorry for disappearing! I did not forget about this thread, though!

    She should've been fired both times. Three times, if we count her disappearing from a crime scene and then mouthing off to Stella. With less sympathetic bosses, she definitely would have been - that's why I think her way of dealing with issues (things like this in Oedipus Hex) are as self-destructive as anything Danny has ever done. You're right, she should be able to just do her job, rather than foist it off on someone else - and she usually does, I should add - but if/when she finds she can't, she shouldn't be in that profession. Most people with PTSD would not be cops.

    No, I don't think Lindsay would've let Danny said no - but that's also why I think it had everything to do with her and her issues, and nothing to do with Danny's crush or whether he'd accept her reason. She did the exact same thing to Stella in Silent Night, like you mentioned. She certainly didn't believe Stella would be fine with her vanishing from a crime scene, or snapping at her (personally, I've always thought that was at least part of the reason Lindsay was so defensive in her showdown with Stella later in that episode - she was expecting to get into trouble). But she did it anyway.

    Hawkes did sound surprised when she was leaving, but he didn't really try to stop her, and ended up processing that crime scene with Stella on his own.

    Danny made her do her job in "All Access", rather than allowing her to just let him "handle the case on his own", like she snapped at him to do. And I don't remember her trying to make Danny do anything in Manhattan Manhunt

    Agreed.

    I actually liked that she didn't directly mention Danny, because it made the statement more true - in my experience, it is stupid to get involved with coworkers. I do agree about the "poor me" card, but my pet peeve is that the card is always accepted when she plays it.

    Stella was the safety official of the lab, wasn't she? Lindsay had to give Stella a reason for why she was asking all the questions on how the chemicals would affect a pregnancy; that's why she had to tell her about it. And the fact that even then, she didn't directly tell Stella about that extremely personal thing speaks volumes. I do think that Stella was genuinely interested and curious, because Stella usually does seem so when it comes to Lindsay. But I don't think Lindsay believed that.

    Thinking on this, I'd probably have to say it was sometime between the morgue conversation in PF and the later phone call. "LWFM" confused the hell out of me at first, but it just makes more sense that he wanted her back as a friend. I don't think he ever wanted her romantically, at least not past S3. I think after her confession, he just wanted her in his life because she was someone he knew now cared about him. He might've initially wanted her as a friend, albeit a friend who was in love with him - but then it's like he got impatient with waiting for her to put him back to that "good-personal-friend" status he used to have, and so kept her in his life the only other way he knew would work. Kind of what he did in Season 5, pushing the marriage thing because he didn't trust her to stay without it. Given his issues, I get it, but I find it irritating as hell. And more than a little unfair to Lindsay.

    I think if he was just apologizing for whatever in Right Next Door, there would've been a little more acknowledgment of the things she'd said, something more than "we should talk". Lindsay always runs from him, but every time he specifically says they should talk, she usually stays to talk. This was the one exception, and I think it was the exception because even the apologetic smile he gave her when he said it showed that it wasn't about "let's talk in a way that works on our relationship"; it was the breakup "let's talk." I understand not wanting to air their dirty laundry in public, but he can give possible-love-confessions in the middle of the police precinct hallway. I can't see him not even saying something along the lines of what he said in the phone conversation in PF ("can you come over later", or "sorry for pushing you away" or whatever), in a lab room they were basically alone in, if he'd actually wanted to say it.

    Geez, that was long :lol:

    But I think that response (the one Mac told her to say) would've required a cool-headed-ness that's hard to find in the heat of the moment. The "mad at myself" line makes me think she totally would've said it in a more rational moment, though, because "mad at myself" directly implies that she's blaming herself. Danny might've taken it harshly, but I can't imagine more secure people doing the same. "Stupid of me to fall for you" - that just implies that falling for him was flat-out idiocy - which is harshness I think anyone would feel, not just Danny.

    I know Lindsay's never been that separate from Danny romantically, story-wise, but I could definitely see her letting go of him and moving on she felt she had to. She was doing it in LWFM, trying to get back on coworker-friendly terms with him (she initiated the "Jaws" conversation, he actually seemed a little surprised, like he expected her to give him the silent treatment; it was only when he started pushing for more personal interaction that she freaked out); she was fine in "Admissions", and even in "Personal Foul" - again, when Danny wasn't pushing for more personal interaction. I agree it definitely gets harder if you have to see - more importantly, work amiably with - your ex every day, but for a little while, it seemed like she was getting there. It's why I think I literally would pay to see what the writers would've come up with in a Season 5 where Anna Belknap wasn't pregnant.

    Danny is, again, a little harder to define. I agree, I think the "love confession" made him feel really guilty, but I'm still not sure it wasn't a pitying guilt, rather than an "I'm to blame for this" guilt...I think he realized he'd led her on and felt bad for that. But I keep getting the feeling that he's still leading her on, so I can't really see all his renewed efforts as trying to make up for that, so much as it is trying to keep her. Maybe it's both, but if he was trying to meet her halfway with the love thing, he probably wouldn't still be shutting her out (that phone call in "Point of No Return", with the "same old over here"?)

    Yes! I agree that he thinks he's giving her what she wants, all the "I love yous" and insistent proposals, giving her at least the illusion that he really loves her the same way she does him. But Lindsay can see through this illusion, if not entirely. She totally saw through the one in the Triangle, and I think she only decided to fool herself with the second one because of Danny's insistence - second time asking, they were already at the courthouse, plus the speech - maybe she was hoping that no one would put in that much effort to convince her, if they didn't feel something romantic. I think Lindsay knows it's an illusion, but I don't think she's completely without hope. If she was, she wouldn't have married him. Rikki seemed to know off the bat that she was taking something Danny was giving unhealthily, if willingly. But, well, it's different to offer up a one-night stand, and offer up a marriage - not only offer it up, but insist on it. Lindsay doesn't know Danny or his issues nearly as well as she'd like to, I'm sure, but I think even Flack would find it hard to predict Danny's guilt being that intense.

    I definitely don't think it's entirely selfish, nor do I think he's consciously being cruel. But I do see an element of selfishness in it - he flat out wouldn't be saying or doing any of those things if he didn't want Lucy, or Lindsay to stay with him. And he only knows saying/doing these things will work, because Lindsay basically told him they would work. Even if he sorts out his issues, I can't see him ever not wanting Lucy - but Lindsay is a different story, and I'm totally not convinced that a Danny who wasn't so needy for people who love him would want Lindsay. Not as a girlfriend, anyway.

    Second post coming soon! *facepalm*
     
  10. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    I don't remember anything in "Boo" that showed how he was especially caring toward her...the thing in "The Deep" always struck me as a tad over-the-top because he was fine when Hawkes was thanking him for saving his life (which is at least as positive-attention as anything Lindsay had said); he was uncomfortable, but not really brusque. Even when Stella was all "I'm fine, thanks to you" after the train fiasco, he was clearly uncomfortable, but kind of swept on with business as usual. That's why I think the reaction in The Deep was at least partly due to Lindsay herself.

    ETA: Sorry, I forgot this!

    He was on his way out in Child's Play, but we know he was able to stop and wait around for Mac - because Mac wasn't in the morgue when Danny found Ruben. It's not like Mac was just there, and Danny in his grief started spilling. Mac came to the morgue for Danny, and Danny started talking. Presumably it's easier to make allowances for your boss than your girlfriend, but it's not like Danny was completely incapable of waiting up for Lindsay when she appeared in the morgue - he just didn't want to. Maybe he did want her to reach out later, but again, I'm thinking he wouldn't have ignored calls from her and stuff if he was interested in leaning on her.

    It sounds really insincere every time he says it, though, so I can't believe he means it. I think at best, Danny wants to mean it when he tells Lindsay he loves her, or at least, he's trying to convince himself that he means it. Either way, he knows at the moment that he doesn't mean it.

    I agree Danny seems really traditional in terms of the "happy, complete family", but I think it'll quickly become obvious when Lucy gets older (if not earlier than that), that she's certainly not going to get a happy family in this marriage.

    But it's sort of like I said earlier on in this post - most people don't assume that a rational person is offering themselves just to fix things...that someone is saying "yes", when they really mean "no". At least in Rikki's case, Danny's guilt over Ruben was painfully obvious. Lindsay might've known that Danny was emotionally fragile, maybe even knew he would give sex up in "Snow Day"; but I think she expected that to be because (she thought) he was attracted to her, not because of his insecurities. Same with the relationship. He had no reason to be guilty when it came to her, and I don't know if it's possible to expect her to know that he was that insecure before she got into a relationship with him in S4. How would she know?

    LOL, I forgot about both those scenes, although Flack never actually talked to her in either - but I really think it comes down to the same thing. Even in any of those social get-togethers, he was a relative stranger - if she'd sensed hostility from him, I think she would be hostile back, rather than just pesky.

    That's definitely true, especially about the socially awkward people. But the thing is, when someone is socially awkward, it's hard for them to push at all with people they don't know/trust/like, let alone push too far. Yeah, I don't think Lindsay knows limits that well - she tends to cross them with more than just Flack, to be honest - but the fact that she can approach Flack at all, let alone push boundaries, tells me that she's given him some sort of "friend-ish" label, rather than labelled him as someone either potentially hostile, or someone she's not sure about.

    Maybe it's just the way Flack looks at people and things :p I mean, to me it really didn't seem like he was avoiding looking at Lindsay, either in AitF or any other episode, but I've noticed he looks at things/people longer than others would. They seemed comfortable in Buzzkill (most recent episode I've watched); they do seem most comfortable when they're talking about work-related things. But this is kind of the usual with all the characters on CSI, isn't it? I mean, you get the odd exception of Mac/Stella, Flack/Danny, Danny/Hawkes, even Flack/Stella, but for the most part...

    The thing is, I'm finding it hard to see how he'd be gleeful that Lindsay was miserable, if he also didn't believe Lindsay was justified in being miserable - the way he said it really made it seem like he didn't believe Lindsay was at all distraught, and really, he had no reason to. It sounded like he believed Danny had asked her to the game, and Lindsay said no because she was angry - if she was miserable over it, that was all down to her. Flack knew that, he was practically stating a fact. "Make her mad, so I can go to the games instead." It didn't seem so harsh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  11. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    No worries! Real life does butt in sometimes :lol: and it's not like these replies take five minutes to write out, lol. :D

    I guess I don't see it as on the same level as what Danny does because she seems to get people to let her off the hook. She makes excuses and they're accepted, which is one of the reasons I have difficulties liking her as a character. When Danny does something wrong, he hangs his head and just takes the criticism, or makes it worse somehow. Lindsay makes excuses or plays that "poor me" card. The playing of the "poor me" card requires a level of consciousness of the wrongness of her actions. Danny doesn't seem to get that he's messed up until after he's done it.

    I agree about most people with PTSD not being cops, but I don't think Lindsay has PTSD. Her outbursts are way too selective--she can be at a scene with a bunch of dead teenagers or hold a shotgun and be fine, but she can't talk to a mother and needs to leave a scene with one dead teen girl? That feels too inconsistent for PTSD.

    I agree that it was about her, but she used Danny's feelings and Stella's inclination to be friendly towards her to get what she wanted/get out of trouble. I keep coming back to that "poor me" card--she seems to expect people to kowtow to her and her issues.

    Oh, mine too! But I think she didn't mention Danny because she didn't have to. Mac knew exactly who she was talking about.

    I don't think it was so much about whether Lindsay thought that Stella cared about her not--I think it was more that Lindsay had gotten pregnant accidentally and probably wasn't ready to share that news yet. I think for better or worse, she wanted Danny involved in that, because he was half of the equation.

    That's a really good point--Danny tried to get back to being friends first, and Lindsay made it pretty clear she didn't really want to just go back to friendly banter and hanging out and only then did he try to get back together with her. Not even really get back together--just lure her to his place with the promise of sex, really.

    But I think that's his insecurity again--she sent him the message that she didn't want to be friends. He figured out what she did want--him back romantically--and gave it to her.

    Yeah, that's a good point, in light of the idea that he didn't want her back romantically until he saw he couldn't have her back as a friend. It's interesting, thinking back on everything, we never really saw Danny have any kind of epiphany that he loved Lindsay or wanted to be with her. I need to watch that scene again--at the time, I just took it as him wanting to talk to her, but I didn't think ahead to what he was likely going to say.

    I still come back to that "I'm mad at myself" being a total backhanded insult to the person it's addressed to. It just feels like double-speak to me--saying "I'm mad at myself" but really meaning "I'm mad at you." When you take into account her tone and the other things she said to him "you decided to do this on your own" and the like, I think anyone would have taken it the way Danny did. Maybe not as hard as Danny did, but definitely not at face value as her actually just being mad at herself.

    Oh, me too--it would have been great to see the end of Danny/Lindsay romance, and it sounded like it was definitely headed that way had Anna Belknap not gotten pregnant. I think the writers made the best of it. I'm not sure Lindsay was moving on, though--I think the joking in LWFM showed that she very much wanted him back or had one of those moments where she forgot they were done. They fell back into an old pattern for a minute. Did they interact in "Admissions"? I don't remember. I remember her walking away from him quickly in the morgue in "Personal Foul" before he tried to talk to her, so I think she still wasn't handling it great. She obviously couldn't be around him without having issues.

    I think that call in "Point of No Return" shows how much he still doesn't trust her. He still sees her as someone who will abandon him at the first sign of trouble, and I don't know that he'll get over that anytime soon, since even marrying her hasn't changed his fears on that front. In Danny's mind I'm sure he thinks his recklessness would have led her to think he would be a bad father and no good for their kid. And (again in his mind) that would have led to her leaving him, taking the kid. There's just no trust there between them, no trust and no honest communication.

    I think Danny's damage has showed in every conversation they've had about the marriage, though. His proposals have never sounded like the words of a man in love--even his conversation with Mac I thought his fear of abandonment was glaringly obvious. I think Lindsay's love/lust for Danny is blinding her. And to be fair, she kind of feeds that--never once has she told him he's good enough or that he's wonderful. It's all "do you have any idea how hard it is to love you?" which just feeds into his deep insecurity that he's unlovable. She knows just how to hurt him, and doesn't hold back when it suits her.

    I think a lot has factored into Danny wanting Lindsay to marry him, none of it especially healthy. It started with her desire for him, was spurred on by loss (of Aiden) and peril (Louie, Flack) of people he cared about it in rapid succession, inflamed by Lindsay's yo-yoing of him and then carried along by her desire for him again. Then the break up and her refusal to have him as a friend--she wanted him as a boyfriend, or not at all. So he gave her that, but didn't seem enthused about it until she got pregnant and he realized he wanted the baby very, very much. And then he was afraid she'd take the baby away--another insecurity fear. So I think aside from his initial interest being sparked by hers, it's all been unhealthy.

    I hate character limits! :p Splitting this into two posts...
     
  12. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Didn't he kind of joke about it when Hawkes thanked him? He always kind of seems bashful and unsure of what to do with praise. Lindsay kind of cornered him with both praise and concern, and I think his response was sort of jokey, but trying to get her to drop the topic. Danny never seems to know what to do with positive reinforcement, which comes back to his insecurities.

    By the time Lindsay came into the morgue, Danny had worked himself up into being very, very upset. He was upset when Mac came in, but he was in shock and hadn't said much at that point. Then he started to talk to Mac and got himself more and more upset--and probably also realized he had to tell Rikki her son was dead. I really don't think it was a matter of waiting for Lindsay or not--if she had come in first instead of Mac, he probably would have spilled to her.

    He ignored calls from Flack in "All in the Family," too. I think he was in full panic mode then so I don't really chalk that up to being personal to Lindsay either. All Danny cared about was getting that gun back--and making sure Rikki didn't do something that would ruin her life.

    I think he wants to mean it, though, and I think he loves his child so much he thinks that just extends to Lindsay.

    I think if she had been at all observant, she would have known Danny was fragile emotionally. Even if she didn't from their interactions, after seeing him lose a close friend, nearly lose his brother and his best friend one after another, she might have been able to guess he wasn't in the healthiest place emotionally. I don't think Danny necessarily meant "no," but in Danny's sexual relationships, he always seems to be the pursued and not the pursuer. Once he figures out that someone wants him in that way, he goes out of his way to offer sex up, almost in a placating way (like in "Right Next Door" and "Personal Foul"). Even if Lindsay didn't know it the first time around, she should have seen through it the second time--especially when he didn't even tell her he loved her after she'd said it twice.

    I don't think we're really supposed to see any of them as strangers to each other--even Sid had something to say about Angell in "Pay Up," and we never once saw them interact on screen. I think it was subtle hostility--more of a "back off" signal--that she either missed or chose to press on in the face of.

    I'm sure she thinks he likes her. I'm sure Danny--being the gabby bigmouth we know he is--has probably told her plenty of stories about Flack that make her feel closer to him than maybe he feels to her. Whatever the case is, she certainly seems to feel she can take liberties with him.

    I've noticed that a lot with Danny especially, which is why it stands out to me so much when he doesn't look at someone. That's probably why I noticed him not looking at Lindsay in "Snow Day" and "All in the Family." The one time he really did look at her in AitF was when she brought up not being able to reach Danny--he was very attentive then, but then she was talking about Danny in trouble.

    Yeah, true, except for the friendship pairings. But I've noticed little things--like how Flack walked out on her after the interrogation in "Cool Hunter" and his snark over the flower in "What Schemes May Come"--that suggest to me that he's not that fond of her.

    It felt like a dig at her. And he kind of looked at Danny long and hard when he said it, as if gaging Danny's reaction to the comment. That made me think it was more pointed than just a joke between guys; it felt like it meant something more.
     
  13. danny-lindsay4e

    danny-lindsay4e Witness

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    is really think we should chance the name of this thread to............

    The TOP41-MAYA316 daily gab.

    love reading your thought's guy's cheers me up most mornings x
     
  14. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Glad you're reading and enjoying it, danny-lindsay4e! :D Feel free to jump in if you like--and don't feel like your posts have to be as long as ours, lol!
     
  15. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    I think Flack is smart enough not to get in the middle of them and their arguements. What I saw is him enjoying benifitting from their lovers quarrel and in his own guy way letting Danny know he appreciated the opportunity to spend a night out with him. What his remark tells me is that because Danny had a girlfriend (I know, debatable) they hadn't been able to hang out as much as they used to, which is completely in line with what happens with most friendships once a significant other is introduced to the equation. I think Flack missed that and was enjoying the guys night out, just like old times. However, I thought he was extremely cold to Lindsay when they were processing the the stadium seats in PF. When he said he would make some calls you could almost see frost forming. Which is odd in a way, because he put the blame on Danny for the arguement when he said "you should piss Lindsay off more often". That makes me wonder what version Danny told him.

    In You Only Die Once I thought it interesting that three episodes after Danny and Lindsay get together in Snow Day Don has a girlfriend that he has had for a couple of weeks and their "very important" third date got interrupted by the burgler in her apartment. I'm assuming because her dress was down around her waist that it was going to be a "pool table" kind of date. This strengthens the idea that both of these guys had other things on their minds than guys nights out.

    I do think that Flack is still in that "jury's out" frame of mind about Lindsay in S4. He's willing to help her with Danny because he cares about his friend and I think he appreciates that she cares too. I think her willingness to lie to Mac got her some points with Flack because she didn't have to do anything more than tell Mac she hadn't heard from him. What she did was something Flack would do himself and has done for a friend and he would respect that sort of loyalty.
     

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