Yes, exactly! Flack chased him all over Manhattan in "All in the Family" and even in the end, he just didn't seem to get why Flack would want to help him like that.
I know, I remember how strange I found it because he'd so quickly told Flack what was going on at the beginning of "AitF", but seemed confused when Flack immediately wanted to help. It's like he half-expected Flack would have his back, but also half-expected that Flack wouldn't want anything to do with him, and it's so strange because I've noticed he also seems to use that approach with almost everyone who's ever cared about him. (Mac, even Louie to an extent, and maybe Aiden.)
I've never really seen Lindsay's walls as insecurity in the same way I do Danny's--she just shuts people out because she doesn't want to get close to them. Fear of losing people she cares about, sure, but I think she also just thinks she can handle stuff on her own. Danny seems to know he can't, but doesn't feel anyone would or should want to help him.
I think the reasons for Lindsay and Danny's insecurities come from different places (hence the appearance of strength-despite-no-strong-friends in one, and the appearance of fragility-despite-tons-of-emotional-support in the other). But the insecurities themselves seem to come from the same place. I don't think Lindsay shuts people out because she doesn't
want to get close to them, I think it's because she doesn't know how. She's indicated so many times that she'd
want to. I keep coming back to things like the way she was lashing-out-angry about what happened to Stella in "All Access" - she obviously cared, but I don't think it even occurred to her to pick up the phone after the drama was over and ask Stella how she was doing. Or the way she told Stella she could use a friend in "Silent Night" - but as soon as Stella told her she had one, she basically ran. And then there are things like the card she left Danny in The Lying Game - showing she cared, but not telling him squat about what was going on - or the scene in Mac's office, or the awkward Stella/Lindsay hospital conversation in "Greater Good", or even the way she slipped Danny the DNA results in "Run Silent", but disappeared when things got emotional. Quite frankly, I don't think Danny would've been able to attract her at all if she didn't want to get close to people.
It really seems to me that someone who's
that obviously desperate to reach out and try (even when she keeps failing) to show she cares...really shouldn't have such a problem when people try to get close to her. Unless she, like Danny, believed that no one would or should want to get close to her.
Yeah, there was definitely a strong bond between Danny and Aiden. It seemed pretty clear to me that they had a strong, established relationship when the show began, so much so that they could playfully flirt without either taking it wrong (though I do wonder if Aiden had stayed on the show, whether something might have developed there). I think losing Aiden contributed to Danny's damage--I think everything at the end of season two did. In a way, it was kind of what happened to Lindsay in that diner, because he lost or nearly lost three people close to him in quick succession. I think that messed him up, and in part explains why he was so clingy with Lindsay in season three.
I thought the same thing! About Danny/Aiden, I meant, I definitely saw something building there...which makes me think they literally trotted Lindsay onto the show when Aiden left to continue the love-storyline. One way or another, Danny was going to have a long-term girlfriend. :lol: But I do think you're right about the series of events at the end of season 2 having an effect on Danny's clinginess to Lindsay. That actually brings up an interesting point...if Aiden had lived, or Flack hadn't gotten caught in that building, would Danny have been fine when Lindsay started pulling away? He didn't seem to be
so interested in her up until that point, so I wonder. (Btw, quick question - is Louie alive??)
She didn't know at the time she wouldn't get that version of him back, so it seemed like that speech was an attempt to do that--and honestly, to make him pay for not turning to her.
See, I keep reading online that the speech was supposed to be a "wake-up" call for Danny, but I'm really doubting that Lindsay gave that speech expecting it to solve anything. Maybe the first part - because she did seem to pause halfway through, like she expected him to start talking. But it became more than clear that that wasn't going to happen, and then after she let the real bomb drop, she took off. If she was waiting for happy-perfect!Danny to come back after the speech, I think she would've stuck around.
I keep getting stuck on the fact that if she'd really cared about him, she would have said some version of what Mac recommended in "Child's Play": "I'm not good at this kind of thing, but I do want to support you." Instead she accuses him of grieving on his own and tells him she has to get over being in love with him. Given all that he's going through, that's just cruel. Put it this way: I saw very little sensitivity for what he's going through or genuine care for him in that speech.
I think she would've said something like Mac recommended had she been in a calmer frame of mind, because a lot of what she said sounded like an angry derivative of "I'm not good at this kind of thing" (or, "I'm mad at myself") and "I do want to support you" (or, "My mistake for thinking you might need someone to lean on"). She spent a lot of time emphasizing how she knew what it was like to grieve (read, knew what he was going through), and how she'd never expected him not to - she was definitely angry, which yeah, was insensitive. But she focused on all the wrong things if she was just concerned with herself, and not with him.
Desperate to get back in her good graces or just eager to get her to drop the birthday issue. I definitely saw the latter, but I didn't sense groveling. I think he was defensive about it, actually. He made excuses--though really what he should have said was, "Geez, Lindsay, you know I didn't have a lot of shopping time in between grieving for Ruben and trying to keep his mother from killing the man she does hold responsible for his death." That might have been more effective, but again--communication, these two don't do it well.
True, maybe it was just eagerness to get her to drop the birthday issue, which she did. I saw eagerness either way, and I think that would've gone a longer way than a belated birthday present if Lindsay just wanted to get back to the status quo. He totally shouldn't have been making excuses, though, I agree with that - he should've told her what the problem with her was right there. She did drop the birthday issue after his defensiveness, and never brought it up again, which seems to indicate she
knew birthday shopping probably wasn't high on his priority list - I can't imagine she wouldn't have gotten any other messages he might have sent her. But this comes back to communication.
Or things she managed to make him think he was guilty of. This is Danny--criticize him and he'll take it and believe it. He was the same way in "On the Job" with the head-hanging--and Mac was a lot more justified. Grieving "all on his own"? Of course he did--she never reached out to him. Reducing her to a "shallow clingy girlfriend"? That's the image she herself presented when she complained about him forgetting her birthday. She should be mad at herself, but she directed the anger at Danny.
Or things she managed to make him think he was guilty of. This is Danny--criticize him and he'll take it and believe it. He was the same way in "On the Job" with the head-hanging--and Mac was a lot more justified. Grieving "all on his own"? Of course he did--she never reached out to him. Reducing her to a "shallow clingy girlfriend"? That's the image she herself presented when she complained about him forgetting her birthday. She should be mad at herself, but she directed the anger at Danny.
I actually remember him being a little more defensive in "On the Job", demanding to know who was badmouthing him (rather than "accepting" that they had a reason to badmouth him), and insisting he'd done the right thing. He only got head-hanging when Mac told him he was off the promotion grid, didn't he? In RND, the only thing that should've been that guilt-inducing (in terms of Danny's insecurities) would've been Lindsay's "mad at myself" line. The "shallow girlfriend" was not the image Lindsay presented with the complaint about her birthday, because it was clear from the first that it was never about her birthday. It was the image Danny saw, though, and I don't think that was down to Lindsay; because she was way too jokey about the birthday thing and any genuine anger she may have had over it was gone in seconds. If Danny had been giving her the credit he gave her in past seasons, he would've picked up on that. He picked up on the cause for Lindsay's anger in Stealing Home and All Access - he didn't just assume she was having "girl problems" or anything.
Right after Mac said, "Fill Danny in." Didn't she say, "Here, read it yourself" or something like that? I just remember how unprofessional she was in that moment, how passive-agressive.
Yeah, she was all "Catch up by reading this", and walked away. It was passive-aggressive - she should've just let him have it right there, if she had a problem with him. But it really seemed like it was more about getting away from him quickly (before she said or did something even more unprofessional) than it was about letting Danny know she was pissed. I think if she just wanted to let Danny know she was pissed, she might've ignored Danny completely, given the folder to Hawkes and asked him to catch Danny up. That's what she did toward the end of the episode. When Stella and Danny came in to get info on where the kidnapper was, I kept noticing how Lindsay refused to even look at or speak directly to Danny (even when he was the one asking the questions!), until he made her look at him. She really is fourteen sometimes.
I don't think he was so much reluctant as he was obviously just trying to do the right thing. It was still a sweet gesture with good intentions behind it. Granted, a bad idea, but still sincere and she owed him more than saying "no" and walking away. Definitely how she would have liked to be treated, but this is Danny and he's not like her--and until she makes an effort to understand that and allow for that the way he did with her, they're never going to be a good match.
It was a sweet gesture...it made me facepalm a lot, but it was definitely sweet. It was, however, kind of obvious to me that he was barely stopping himself from just running away...Lindsay seemed to get the same kind of impression (the weird way she kept watching him). Maybe he didn't mean that to come across to Lindsay, but it really seemed like he was terrified that she'd say yes. He actually seemed a bit relieved when she said no, if you ask me - definitely stung, but it didn't seem like "no" was the answer he'd been dreading. That's why I saw Lindsay's "no" as intended-to-be-reassuring, more than anything. But yeah, I agree she has to learn to stick around and explain the reasons she's giving him space.
I think her yo-yoing set the tone for his, really. She pushed and pulled and pushed and pulled and then decided she wanted him--but by that point it seems he wasn't sure he still wanted her. Hard to blame him. But then she tells him she loves him and Danny sees the prospect of letting down/failing/not being good enough for someone who loves him so he decides to make an effort.
Honestly, I'd find it hard to blame him if he hadn't made it look like he still wanted her. I know Lindsay definitely started the yo-yo-ing, but she pushed for him (S2), then pulled away (S3 beginning), then pushed for him again
only when it seemed like he really wanted it too. I get that it might not have been his intention to send that message when he showed up in Montana, but seriously, Montana is like 2000 miles away from New York and Danny flew it on no sleep, on a complete whim. Even for a romantic gesture, that would seem slightly over-the-top; I definitely can't blame Lindsay for thinking it might've meant something huge. And then he just didn't correct her when she kept going with that impression; maybe he was still deciding whether he wanted her or not, but it would've been nice to see him hit the "not" point before they got to the pool table. Or even slightly afterward. I totally think Lindsay would've pulled back if he'd been giving even slight indications that he didn't want her that early.
Agreed, it did--and that all clearly made it okay for her. But not for Danny--he needed more. Again, I keep coming back to his massive insecurities. I think he was legitimately afraid she'd leave him and take the baby.
...
Agreed, totally. They just don't have any trust or communication as a couple, which is why they're so wrong for each other. But I think Danny loves that baby and he loves the idea of them as a family. I think he's too insecure and damaged to really know whether he's in love with Lindsay or not, but I do think he married her in good faith, even if it comes from a place of insecurity and fear rather than healthy love.
I definitely agree he was legitimately afraid of that, and so married her with good intentions. But oh my gosh, he handled it in completely the wrong way. Lindsay's actually more likely to leave him and take the baby
now than I think she would've been before; at least before, she didn't have to constantly wonder about Danny's feelings for her - because the only feelings that were important were his for the baby. And knowing how
well they communicate if any of this ever comes up...first roadblock they hit, I really see this marriage crumbling.
To me, "I don't like where you're going with this" (emphasis mine) made it clear. She just didn't get the hint and kept pushing.
When has Lindsay ever not gotten the hint when people are annoyed/bothered by her? She usually goes on the offensive and assumes they
are bothered by her even when they really might not be. (Ie, snapping Danny's head off in Zoo York when he asked if she needed help - she wasn't unjustified there, but really, he was almost trying to be nice.) I think if Flack were sending any hints, she would've gotten them and snapped back.
Well, what Lindsay did in "Silicone" was pretty funny--I think Flack can appreciate a good joke, even if he's the butt of it!
LOL, true (although I thought the "Houdini" thing was pretty funny, too)...but it was in public. And why only threaten to get her back, why not actually do something in retaliation?
Yeah, I think Flack's problem with Lindsay would have to do more with D/L than with her personally. I mean, he seems to find her somewhat annoying at times, but the jerking around of Danny would really get under his skin, and I think affect how he feels about her overall. But he's not going to say, "You're being mean to Danny!" because he figures that's Danny's battle to fight.
I still think I'd say Flack's problem isn't with Lindsay at all, but with D/L. It's definitely possible to like two people just fine, but think the romantic relationship between them is toxic, that they just don't work together. And I think if D/L were having an effect on his perception of Lindsay in general, we probably
would see him indicate that. It wouldn't even be fighting Danny's battle for him - it would just be a case of doing something simple, like
not calling her Linds, or giving her a slight cold shoulder (rather than the odd friendliness) when she and Danny should be on the outs, or when it really looks like she's been taking advantage of him. Realistically, if it were D/L that's reflecting badly on Lindsay for Flack, he really should assume she wouldn't give a damn about Danny, because that's the impression she really gave off in S3. But he never assumes that.
That he's telling Danny that he should piss Lindsay off more often doesn't suggest the highest opinion of Lindsay, but I agree it says more about D/L than Lindsay herself. I definitely took that as a clear sign that Flack wasn't a fan of the relationship at that point. I doubt he is now, but I think he sees how happy Danny is about the baby and accepts that. More than anyone else in Danny's life, Flack really seems to just want to see Danny happy.
That Flack was implying it was
Danny who'd been in the wrong, rather than Lindsay, suggested a high-enough opinion of Lindsay. (Why assume it was Danny who'd done something worthy of pissing Lindsay off? Why not assume it was Lindsay who'd been the problem - which, in
this fight, she at least halfway was?! This is what I'm really getting at when it comes to Flack and D/L, and why it kind of irks me a bit - I don't know if this is just another case of Lindsay's Mary-Sue-ness forbidding other characters to ever see her as being in the wrong, but you'd think the
one character who'd be personally invested in pointing out the problems of D/L - Danny's best friend - wouldn't take every opportunity to act like Lindsay was the saint in D/L. It's why I turn to Flack/Lindsay fiction so much - at least there, Lindsay's relationship issues aren't glossed-over.)
No, I agree, but a crush is a crush--she knew he had feelings for her, and had shown her concern on many occasions. I think she knew she could get him to take the mother, and so she got him to do that. It felt very manipulative to me because she didn't just ask--she had a petulant, childish outburst and got him to do it based on that.
I agree about the childish outburst, but I think in that scene she got him to take the mother because of the reason she gave him, not because of the outburst -- he did snap back once she started being petulant.
It has been ages since I've seen "Crime & Misdemeanor" but didn't Danny ask Aiden to stay on the case? I actually do remember being annoyed with him for getting her to partake in something Mac wouldn't approve of--too much to ask of a friend, really. But Danny being wrong in C&M doesn't justify Lindsay being wrong in OH. And I doubt either Hawkes or Adam would have put up with her BS the way Danny did. Well, Adam maybe, but the way she treats Adam is a whole other issue!
In "C&M", Aiden was about to give up, and then Danny said something like "you bailing on me?" - Aiden got defensive (telling him he knew she had his back), but then stayed on the case. He didn't really ask. LOL, yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. But I wasn't really comparing on basis of D and L both being in the wrong, I meant more that Danny expected Aiden to have his back because she was his friend, and so guilt-tripped her using that. And Lindsay thought Danny would take the mother not because he had feelings for her, but because he was her friend - and yeah, she used that. I don't know, to me, playing on friendship doesn't seem as bad, because at least they know they're on an even footing with the other person. I just can't see it as manipulation designed specifically for Danny, because I definitely think she would've asked Hawkes or Adam had it been them. It's doubtful they would've put up with the BS, but I think she would've tried anyway.
