Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[under_cover]

This is my favorite Thread! Intellectual convo/debate. =) You guys are really good...im your no. 1 fan. =) I wish Elwood..(err sorry forgot the complete name) could join coz she makes sense too. =)

 

[Top41]

I think Flack is smart enough not to get in the middle of them and their arguements. What I saw is him enjoying benifitting from their lovers quarrel and in his own guy way letting Danny know he appreciated the opportunity to spend a night out with him. What his remark tells me is that because Danny had a girlfriend (I know, debatable) they hadn't been able to hang out as much as they used to, which is completely in line with what happens with most friendships once a significant other is introduced to the equation. I think Flack missed that and was enjoying the guys night out, just like old times.

I definitely think that was a big part of it. Flack missed Danny, but he wasn't going to say, "Man, I miss hanging out with you" so that was how he expressed it. But the pointed way he looked at Danny and Danny's extended laugh suggested to me that it wasn't the first time Flack had taken a shot at Lindsay.

However, I thought he was extremely cold to Lindsay when they were processing the the stadium seats in PF. When he said he would make some calls you could almost see frost forming.

I remember that, too, and I always thought Flack was sort of miffed that she was there and interrupted what was supposed to be his night with Danny. Obviously that was the killer's fault but Flack seemed peeved anyway. Just one of those moments where I get the feeling he's not her biggest fan.

Which is odd in a way, because he put the blame on Danny for the arguement when he said "you should piss Lindsay off more often". That makes me wonder what version Danny told him.

I think Danny told the version, "I'm terrible, I pissed her off, it's all my fault." I think Flack heard/interpreted it as Danny was going through a rough time and Lindsay came down hard on him for not being the perfect boyfriend and made him feel worse. Keep in mind this is Flack, not an unbiased listener. Flack would do anything for Danny, and has shown time and time again how deeply he cares for Danny. Flack's a fair guy, but he's not unbiased when it comes to Danny. Though I think Flack would be justified for not being thrilled with Lindsay for kicking Danny when he was down.

In You Only Die Once I thought it interesting that three episodes after Danny and Lindsay get together in Snow Day Don has a girlfriend that he has had for a couple of weeks and their "very important" third date got interrupted by the burgler in her apartment. I'm assuming because her dress was down around her waist that it was going to be a "pool table" kind of date. This strengthens the idea that both of these guys had other things on their minds than guys nights out.

It's interesting to me that Flack always seems to get a girlfriend after Danny does, though. After Danny hooked up with Lindsay, boom! Flack gets a girlfriend. Then he's single until Danny and Lindsay get back together at the end of season four and gets together with Angell at the beginning of season five.

I do think that Flack is still in that "jury's out" frame of mind about Lindsay in S4. He's willing to help her with Danny because he cares about his friend and I think he appreciates that she cares too. I think her willingness to lie to Mac got her some points with Flack because she didn't have to do anything more than tell Mac she hadn't heard from him. What she did was something Flack would do himself and has done for a friend and he would respect that sort of loyalty.

I definitely think Lindsay got points with Flack for covering for Danny in "All in the Family." Loyalty is a big thing with Flack, and seeing her willing to do that for Danny probably made him think more highly of her. It still felt like an uneasy alliance to me in their scenes, especially that one in the lab when they were calling the bail bondsman number. But I do think that made an impression with Flack.

This is my favorite Thread! Intellectual convo/debate. =) You guys are really good...im your no. 1 fan. =) I wish Elwood..(err sorry forgot the complete name) could join too. She makes sense too. =)

Thank you! :alienblush: Anyone is free to jump in... like I said, the posts don't have to be novels like the ones Maya and I are writing, lol. This is a really fun thread--I'm definitely enjoying the debate.

 

[CSI Cupcake]

I definitely think that was a big part of it. Flack missed Danny, but he wasn't going to say, "Man, I miss hanging out with you" so that was how he expressed it. But the pointed way he looked at Danny and Danny's extended laugh suggested to me that it wasn't the first time Flack had taken a shot at Lindsay.

Or Flack's pointed look could be saying "are you gonna tell me what you really did to piss her off" and Danny laughingly replying "no way in hell am I going to tell you how I really messed up this time". His comment about Danny making Lindsay mad could be interpreted as sort of asking without asking.

I remember that, too, and I always thought Flack was sort of miffed that she was there and interrupted what was supposed to be his night with Danny. Obviously that was the killer's fault but Flack seemed peeved anyway. Just one of those moments where I get the feeling he's not her biggest fan.

That's a good point. I also wondered if he didn't like being challenged by her wanting to look at the scene from another angle. Sort of "isn't my report good enough for you" which would be in keeping with how Lindsay always challenges everything. I know that Flack would always side with Danny because of his loyalty to him, but I just can't see him being pissy with Lindsay on the job over Danny. Flack is way too professional for that...doesn't fit with his suit and tie! It would be more in keeping, for me anyway, for him to be pissy because she didn't trust his view on what happened. Almost the same way she did with Stella, except Stella yelled at her and Flack just went cold and formal on her.

I think Danny told the version, "I'm terrible, I pissed her off, it's all my fault." I think Flack heard/interpreted it as Danny was going through a rough time and Lindsay came down hard on him for not being the perfect boyfriend and made him feel worse. Keep in mind this is Flack, not an unbiased listener. Flack would do anything for Danny, and has shown time and time again how deeply he cares for Danny. Flack's a fair guy, but he's not unbiased when it comes to Danny. Though I think Flack would be justified for not being thrilled with Lindsay for kicking Danny when he was down.

But he's also not living in a dreamworld where Danny is concerned either. He knows how emotional Danny is and how he reacts to stressful emotional situations that he gets himself into. I think Flack realizes that with Danny there is always more going on than what he tells the first time around. That's why I think the look he gave Danny when he made the comment was rather searching instead of pointed. He just didn't want to come right out and say "okay, what's really going on here".

It's interesting to me that Flack always seems to get a girlfriend after Danny does, though. After Danny hooked up with Lindsay, boom! Flack gets a girlfriend. Then he's single until Danny and Lindsay get back together at the end of season four and gets together with Angell at the beginning of season five.

It's good material for the writers because it plays on the competition part of their relationship. It also tells me that maybe Danny is so needy that Flack doesn't have time for a girlfriend until Danny is otherwise occupied himself. Then Flack feels free to pursue someone himself. That puts Danny is a very bad light, though, because that is not a very good friend if you are so needy that your friends can't pursue their own relationship because of you.

I definitely think Lindsay got points with Flack for covering for Danny in "All in the Family." Loyalty is a big thing with Flack, and seeing her willing to do that for Danny probably made him think more highly of her. It still felt like an uneasy alliance to me in their scenes, especially that one in the lab when they were calling the bail bondsman number. But I do think that made an impression with Flack.

I never saw their scenes in AITF as tension or awkwardness between the two of them. I saw them both being tense about Danny. Same with SnowDay at the warehouse. I never took Flack not looking at her as anything significant. He was focused on the monitor and the four people inside. Two of his own men, plus Adam and Danny were in there. He may have been surprised to see her there instead of Mac, but I don't think he was upset or anything by her being there.

Thank you! :alienblush: Anyone is free to jump in... like I said, the posts don't have to be novels like the ones Maya and I are writing, lol. This is a really fun thread--I'm definitely enjoying the debate.

I think this has turned into a great thread. Glad you started this Top. Oh wait, this is "my" thread isn't it.:lol::lol::lol: For those that might wonder what that means...I left the forum after posting in the S6 discussion thread and came back a few hours later to find out that I had started a thread and didn't know it!

 

[Top41]

Or Flack's pointed look could be saying "are you gonna tell me what you really did to piss her off" and Danny laughingly replying "no way in hell am I going to tell you how I really messed up this time". His comment about Danny making Lindsay mad could be interpreted as sort of asking without asking.

I think it would have been a little more questioning if it had been that. More like, "Man, so what did you do to piss her off this time?" or something like that. I got the sense that Flack knew exactly what had happened, and was trying to make Danny feel better by making a joke about it. And getting a dig in at Lindsay--Danny's extended laugh felt to me like he had heard that before but wasn't protesting, at least not this time.

That's a good point. I also wondered if he didn't like being challenged by her wanting to look at the scene from another angle. Sort of "isn't my report good enough for you" which would be in keeping with how Lindsay always challenges everything. I know that Flack would always side with Danny because of his loyalty to him, but I just can't see him being pissy with Lindsay on the job over Danny. Flack is way too professional for that...doesn't fit with his suit and tie! It would be more in keeping, for me anyway, for him to be pissy because she didn't trust his view on what happened. Almost the same way she did with Stella, except Stella yelled at her and Flack just went cold and formal on her.

Yeah, I could see him being annoyed by that, definitely. Normally I don't think Flack would be pissy with Lindsay on the job over Danny... but he wasn't in the suit. He was relaxing at a game with his best friend, clearly happy to just be with him despite losing $50 bucks to the guy!, and then a pesky murder interrupts... and brings in the one person Flack was happy wasn't around. So I think he was a little annoyed.

But he's also not living in a dreamworld where Danny is concerned either. He knows how emotional Danny is and how he reacts to stressful emotional situations that he gets himself into. I think Flack realizes that with Danny there is always more going on than what he tells the first time around. That's why I think the look he gave Danny when he made the comment was rather searching instead of pointed. He just didn't want to come right out and say "okay, what's really going on here".

Flack knows how Danny can be, yes, but he also knows how deeply Danny is grieving and there is no one who gives Danny more leeway when he's upset than Flack does. Flack lets Danny storm out of diners on him and be a little brat when he's in trouble because Flack cares that much about Danny. So I really don't see him having a lot of patience for Lindsay laying into Danny when Danny is already down and hurting.

It's good material for the writers because it plays on the competition part of their relationship. It also tells me that maybe Danny is so needy that Flack doesn't have time for a girlfriend until Danny is otherwise occupied himself. Then Flack feels free to pursue someone himself. That puts Danny is a very bad light, though, because that is not a very good friend if you are so needy that your friends can't pursue their own relationship because of you.

Well, Danny is awfully needy. :lol: But I do think part of it is that Flack and Danny are kind of inseparable when they're both single, and maybe Flack isn't looking as hard for a girlfriend as he is when Danny is otherwise occupied.

I never saw their scenes in AITF as tension or awkwardness between the two of them. I saw them both being tense about Danny. Same with SnowDay at the warehouse. I never took Flack not looking at her as anything significant. He was focused on the monitor and the four people inside. Two of his own men, plus Adam and Danny were in there. He may have been surprised to see her there instead of Mac, but I don't think he was upset or anything by her being there.

Not upset, but there was no warmth between them, certainly not on his part. I get that it was a tense situation, and maybe if I saw more warmth in other instances between them, I'd be willing to chalk it up to tension from the situation. But he's rarely warm with her, unless they're bonding over something like Laughing Larry. And in other tense situations, he doesn't avoid looking at the person he's with. So it always has struck me as kind of telling.

I think this has turned into a great thread. Glad you started this Top. Oh wait, this is "my" thread isn't it.:lol::lol::lol: For those that might wonder what that means...I left the forum after posting in the S6 discussion thread and came back a few hours later to find out that I had started a thread and didn't know it!

LOL, I think I just went several posts back and picked one that really started a somewhat new line of discussion well and yours was it! For those that don't know, this discussion originated in the spoiler thread and really got going there, but I figured it merited its own thread (and also didn't want to keep dragging the spoiler thread too off topic)!

 

[Maya316]

Originally Posted by danny-lindsay4e:

is really think we should chance the name of this thread to............

The TOP41-MAYA316 daily gab.

love reading your thought's guy's cheers me up most mornings x

Originally Posted by under_cover:
This is my favorite Thread! Intellectual convo/debate. =) You guys are really good...im your no. 1 fan. =) I wish Elwood..(err sorry forgot the complete name) could join coz she makes sense too. =)

Oh my gosh, LOL :alienblush:, I definitely second Top41 and CSI_Cupcake, you guys and anyone else should join in - it's fun!

Originally Posted by Top41:

Originally Posted by Maya316
Ack, I'm so sorry for disappearing! I did not forget about this thread, though!

No worries! Real life does butt in sometimes :lol: and it's not like these replies take five minutes to write out, lol.

I know! Gah, but it really sucks, damn RealLife.:lol: :shifty:

I guess I don't see it as on the same level as what Danny does because she seems to get people to let her off the hook. She makes excuses and they're accepted, which is one of the reasons I have difficulties liking her as a character. When Danny does something wrong, he hangs his head and just takes the criticism, or makes it worse somehow. Lindsay makes excuses or plays that "poor me" card. The playing of the "poor me" card requires a level of consciousness of the wrongness of her actions. Danny doesn't seem to get that he's messed up until after he's done it.

The difference between Danny and Lindsay's "self-destruction-at-work" isn't the way they handle it, it's the way other people handle it, or react to them. They handle it the same - offer an explanation for their behaviour; it's just in Lindsay's case, people always (unrealistically) accept her reasons. In Danny's case, not so much. Off the bat, I'm really only recalling 3 instances where Danny's been in trouble at work. Two out of those three times, he's compounded the problem because he feels he was right, and that was his explanation for his behaviour. He was fairly defensive of his "I'm right" stance in Crime and Misdemeanour even when Mac confronted him at the end, and certainly in "On the Job". The third time, "Run Silent", he was likewise defensive, telling Mac he was innocent. Only that time, it was accepted. If/when Danny gets that he messed up in all three cases, it's because other people tell him that he's messed up, and his reasons for doing so aren't good enough. No one ever does that with Lindsay.

I agree about most people with PTSD not being cops, but I don't think Lindsay has PTSD. Her outbursts are way too selective--she can be at a scene with a bunch of dead teenagers or hold a shotgun and be fine, but she can't talk to a mother and needs to leave a scene with one dead teen girl? That feels too inconsistent for PTSD.

I think Lindsay doesn't show classic PTSD because she's a character cop on a TV show - more importantly, she's the most unrealistic, patched-together character on CSI:NY to date. I think she's meant to have PTSD - but only when it's convenient for the writers, or when it doesn't interfere with the episode plot. It's why I really don't think the writers did their research or put much thought into her character, hence the inconsistencies, and the selective outbursts. If they had, they probably would've realized they were trying to create the impossible. She was written to be a bubbly, tough, up-for-anything Mary Sue while also being the traumatized survivor of a bloody past. The two descriptions are practically direct contradictions - and it shows.

I agree that it was about her, but she used Danny's feelings and Stella's inclination to be friendly towards her to get what she wanted/get out of trouble. I keep coming back to that "poor me" card--she seems to expect people to kowtow to her and her issues.

I don't think it's that she expects them to - I think it's that they just do.

I don't think it was so much about whether Lindsay thought that Stella cared about her not--I think it was more that Lindsay had gotten pregnant accidentally and probably wasn't ready to share that news yet. I think for better or worse, she wanted Danny involved in that, because he was half of the equation.

I'm not sure - that conversation happened after she'd already turned down Danny's proposal. Also, I remember Stella specifically asking if the baby's father was involved, and Lindsay said "Yeah, and he's great" - which makes me think it wasn't so much about Lindsay just not being sure where things stood with her and Danny. She seemed to already know he'd back her, if Stella ever went to him about it.

That's a really good point--Danny tried to get back to being friends first, and Lindsay made it pretty clear she didn't really want to just go back to friendly banter and hanging out and only then did he try to get back together with her. Not even really get back together--just lure her to his place with the promise of sex, really.

But I think that's his insecurity again--she sent him the message that she didn't want to be friends. He figured out what she did want--him back romantically--and gave it to her.

I don't think she was sending the message that she didn't want to be friends, ever - she was the one to start the Jaws conversation. It just seemed like she wasn't ready to jump right back into being hang-out buddies with him...and considering she'd just split with the guy after telling him she was in love with him, I so can't blame her for needing time. It really seemed like she was trying to get back to that point, though. But Danny kept pushing because he was impatient. That's what frustrated me, because it frustrated me in the whole S5 baby-marriage debacle too. If he'd just sat back and waited for a while, he could've had Lindsay back as a friend.

I do think she ideally would've liked him back romantically, but I can't see her not being okay with it if he'd decided he didn't want her back romantically.

Yeah, that's a good point, in light of the idea that he didn't want her back romantically until he saw he couldn't have her back as a friend. It's interesting, thinking back on everything, we never really saw Danny have any kind of epiphany that he loved Lindsay or wanted to be with her. I need to watch that scene again--at the time, I just took it as him wanting to talk to her, but I didn't think ahead to what he was likely going to say.

Yes! There was no real epiphany of his that was supposed to say he wanted her back - even in PF, during the first morgue conversation he didn't seem to want to talk about what she'd actually said to him.

I still come back to that "I'm mad at myself" being a total backhanded insult to the person it's addressed to. It just feels like double-speak to me--saying "I'm mad at myself" but really meaning "I'm mad at you." When you take into account her tone and the other things she said to him "you decided to do this on your own" and the like, I think anyone would have taken it the way Danny did. Maybe not as hard as Danny did, but definitely not at face value as her actually just being mad at herself.

I guess I can see this, but I still have to say if she'd actually meant it to be a backhanded insult, or even meant him to take it as a backhanded insult, she would've phrased it differently. She would've said to him what she said to Mac. Because I can see how, given how mad she was during that conversation, "mad at myself" might not be taken completely at face value. But I still think for the most part, it could be - especially if someone were to just take it out of context. "Stupid of me to fall for you" - it doesn't matter how out of context you take that, it's still an insult.

Oh, me too--it would have been great to see the end of Danny/Lindsay romance, and it sounded like it was definitely headed that way had Anna Belknap not gotten pregnant. I think the writers made the best of it. I'm not sure Lindsay was moving on, though--I think the joking in LWFM showed that she very much wanted him back or had one of those moments where she forgot they were done. They fell back into an old pattern for a minute. Did they interact in "Admissions"? I don't remember. I remember her walking away from him quickly in the morgue in "Personal Foul" before he tried to talk to her, so I think she still wasn't handling it great. She obviously couldn't be around him without having issues.

Argh, I still can't forgive the writers for S5. They really, really could've and should've gone a different route with Anna Belknap's pregnancy, even written it out completely.

The joking in LWFM really didn't sound like Lindsay just wanted him back - she barely looked at Danny the entire time she was talking to him (at least, not until she said "this is hard"). And she waited a bit before she started talking. That's what makes me think she debated a bit internally before deciding she should probably try. In their old pattern, she was definitely more direct. They didn't interact in "Admissions", but Lindsay didn't exactly seem like she was especially down or angry in that episode. She walked away in PF when he started pushing for personal conversation. When things were strictly work-related, she was fine - teasing him about lipstick shades, even almost-laughing at one of his jokes. I thought she was handling being around him fine, so long as things stayed professional.

I think that call in "Point of No Return" shows how much he still doesn't trust her. He still sees her as someone who will abandon him at the first sign of trouble, and I don't know that he'll get over that anytime soon, since even marrying her hasn't changed his fears on that front. In Danny's mind I'm sure he thinks his recklessness would have led her to think he would be a bad father and no good for their kid. And (again in his mind) that would have led to her leaving him, taking the kid. There's just no trust there between them, no trust and no honest communication.

That's kind of what I was getting at - everything he does relating to her seems to be about making sure she stays with him; not about particular interest or investment in the relationship itself. I think he at least picked up on the fact that shutting her out was Lindsay's big issue with him in Season 4, only he's still doing it. I can see how he'd be worried about what she'd think on hearing about his recklessness, and it's so true about the no trust or honest communication - but it's not only that. On the phone, Lindsay just seemed to ask what was going on - why not at least tell her about the case, about Marty Pino's involvement? He probably wouldn't even have had to talk about the shootout. Forget no honest communication, it's just no communication, period.

I think Danny's damage has showed in every conversation they've had about the marriage, though. His proposals have never sounded like the words of a man in love--even his conversation with Mac I thought his fear of abandonment was glaringly obvious. I think Lindsay's love/lust for Danny is blinding her. And to be fair, she kind of feeds that--never once has she told him he's good enough or that he's wonderful. It's all "do you have any idea how hard it is to love you?" which just feeds into his deep insecurity that he's unlovable. She knows just how to hurt him, and doesn't hold back when it suits her.

Things like "we make sense", "you're everything I've always wanted", "I want to be with you" (gah, it sounded like he swallowed a bad Harlequin novel :shifty...yeah, he so never actually said the words, but phrases like that do kind of heavily imply romantic interest, rather than fear of abandonment. He didn't even mention the baby in the second proposal. I think that fear is clear enough for Lindsay to see it, even if she's ignoring it. But I also think she's not only being blinded by her own love/lust; he's directly feeding it.

He laughed when she said that "do you have any idea how hard you are to love?" line, which makes me think he wasn't at all injured by it. She's told him she knew he wasn't going anywhere. She specifically implied he already was the man she wanted him to be, in Green Piece (even though I totally don't buy that he was). And she told Stella that he was "great" in the Triangle.Being entirely fair, the last time she told him directly how wonderful she thought he was, he told her not to goof off.

LOL, Part 2 coming up! :lol:

 

[Maya316]

I think a lot has factored into Danny wanting Lindsay to marry him, none of it especially healthy. It started with her desire for him, was spurred on by loss (of Aiden) and peril (Louie, Flack) of people he cared about it in rapid succession, inflamed by Lindsay's yo-yoing of him and then carried along by her desire for him again. Then the break up and her refusal to have him as a friend--she wanted him as a boyfriend, or not at all. So he gave her that, but didn't seem enthused about it until she got pregnant and he realized he wanted the baby very, very much. And then he was afraid she'd take the baby away--another insecurity fear. So I think aside from his initial interest being sparked by hers, it's all been unhealthy.

It has been really unhealthy, but that thing he has of just jumping into things, rather than waiting to think with a cooler head...that plays a big part. I totally disagree that Lindsay wanted him as a boyfriend, or not at all - I think Lindsay was giving every indication that she was ready to be friends with him again, just not on a personal level. I thought that personal level would come in time - like it did the first time, Season 2, had he just waited a bit. And like with the baby-marriage thing, had he waited, Lindsay might've married him down the road without him having to mislead her, once she was at least fairly certain he wasn't just marrying her for Lucy. I know he jumps the gun because he doesn't trust her to stay. But I still really think it's a harsh misjudgment of Lindsay. And then what drives me crazy is how he's the one who just decides that her ultimatum is "romance or nothing" before he acts on it.

Didn't he kind of joke about it when Hawkes thanked him? He always kind of seems bashful and unsure of what to do with praise. Lindsay kind of cornered him with both praise and concern, and I think his response was sort of jokey, but trying to get her to drop the topic. Danny never seems to know what to do with positive reinforcement, which comes back to his insecurities.

Yeah he and Hawkes were jokey, but his response to Hawkes was something along the lines of "Don't worry about it, you'd do the same for me, right?" He wasn't brusque, nor did he entirely brush Hawkes off. He's usually awkward with praise, but he usually lets it go with either no response, or a fairly easy remark. I think Danny didn't mean his brush-off to Lindsay to be taken as anything other than a joke, but it was sort of harsh - and I can't get over the fact that Lindsay actually did seem stung by it.

By the time Lindsay came into the morgue, Danny had worked himself up into being very, very upset. He was upset when Mac came in, but he was in shock and hadn't said much at that point. Then he started to talk to Mac and got himself more and more upset--and probably also realized he had to tell Rikki her son was dead. I really don't think it was a matter of waiting for Lindsay or not--if she had come in first instead of Mac, he probably would have spilled to her.

Maybe, but we can't know this, and I'm still highly unsure of it. To me he seemed highly upset after seeing Ruben in the morgue before Mac came in, way more upset than he seemed after talking to Mac. If there were a time he should've shut down, that would probably be it (especially given the shock thing) - but he could wait for Mac, like he could wait for Flack or almost anyone else. It just really seems like Lindsay was the one exception.

He ignored calls from Flack in "All in the Family," too. I think he was in full panic mode then so I don't really chalk that up to being personal to Lindsay either. All Danny cared about was getting that gun back--and making sure Rikki didn't do something that would ruin her life.

He ignored Flack's calls because he knew Flack was just going to tell him to do something he didn't want to (turn Rikki in). That was after the four-hour search for Ollie Barnes; Flack already knew the situation, because Danny had told him of it. There was only one thing he would've been calling about. I don't think Danny would've ignored Flack's calls had they been coming when Lindsay's had been; at the beginning of AitF.

I think if she had been at all observant, she would have known Danny was fragile emotionally. Even if she didn't from their interactions, after seeing him lose a close friend, nearly lose his brother and his best friend one after another, she might have been able to guess he wasn't in the healthiest place emotionally. I don't think Danny necessarily meant "no," but in Danny's sexual relationships, he always seems to be the pursued and not the pursuer. Once he figures out that someone wants him in that way, he goes out of his way to offer sex up, almost in a placating way (like in "Right Next Door" and "Personal Foul"). Even if Lindsay didn't know it the first time around, she should have seen through it the second time--especially when he didn't even tell her he loved her after she'd said it twice.

I still don't think it's an easy thing to guess at - especially considering D/L v.01 "officially" started about a year after Louie, Aiden, and Flack's injuries/deaths. She might've figured that given his fragility, he was clinging to her after "Not What it Looks Like" (if she did, it could probably explain that much more), but after clinging that hard for almost a year, why assume that he would just be offering up sex to placate her? Especially given how hard she'd pushed him away - it's not the first conclusion I would have come to. It's true, I think she should've guessed more easily the second time around (I'd always assumed she had, until I heard we were supposed to see PF as the night Lindsay got pregnant). If she hadn't...well, that might explain the cold-spell between PF and The Box. It's not the most natural thing to assume the guy doesn't want it when he's the one actively pressing the issue. It would be okay if Danny was just emotionally fragile and insecure, but the odd tenacity that comes with his insecurities is the problem. That's what sends the signals that would not lead most people to come to the conclusion that he's that insecure.

I'm sure she thinks he likes her. I'm sure Danny--being the gabby bigmouth we know he is--has probably told her plenty of stories about Flack that make her feel closer to him than maybe he feels to her. Whatever the case is, she certainly seems to feel she can take liberties with him.

If that's the case, there's no reason to assume Danny wouldn't have likewise told Flack stories about Lindsay. She does seem to feel she can take liberties with him, but I'd assume there's a reason for that beyond "Danny likes him", especially given how quickly I think Flack would've told Lindsay those liberties weren't welcome - if they really weren't. I can't see her simply assuming that someone likes her, especially when there might be even subtle hints that they really don't. Mostly because that's just not an easy assumption for socially-awkward people to make, but also because it seems somewhat OOC for Lindsay.

I've noticed that a lot with Danny especially, which is why it stands out to me so much when he doesn't look at someone. That's probably why I noticed him not looking at Lindsay in "Snow Day" and "All in the Family." The one time he really did look at her in AitF was when she brought up not being able to reach Danny--he was very attentive then, but then she was talking about Danny in trouble.

I remember him looking at her in AitF when he told Lindsay he'd find Danny...and again when the phone call with the bail-bondsman ended. I don't know, he's never seemed inattentive to her, to me.

Yeah, true, except for the friendship pairings. But I've noticed little things--like how Flack walked out on her after the interrogation in "Cool Hunter" and his snark over the flower in "What Schemes May Come"--that suggest to me that he's not that fond of her.

Wasn't Cool Hunter the first time he'd met her? I remember the walking-out thing - and see, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about when I mention Lindsay registering even slight hints of hostility, because I really didn't think that Flack was being purposely rude with it (he even talked directly to her in the interrogation), but she seemed to pick up on that walking-out thing, too. And then I think she was kind of stand-offish to him in Stealing Home, the next episode I think they worked together in, but she seemed more comfortable around him after that. That's why I really think if she was still sensing even a hint of hostility, there would be no teasing or jokes.

Originally Posted by CSI_Cupcake:
I think Flack is smart enough not to get in the middle of them and their arguements. What I saw is him enjoying benifitting from their lovers quarrel and in his own guy way letting Danny know he appreciated the opportunity to spend a night out with him. What his remark tells me is that because Danny had a girlfriend (I know, debatable) they hadn't been able to hang out as much as they used to, which is completely in line with what happens with most friendships once a significant other is introduced to the equation. I think Flack missed that and was enjoying the guys night out, just like old times. However, I thought he was extremely cold to Lindsay when they were processing the the stadium seats in PF. When he said he would make some calls you could almost see frost forming. Which is odd in a way, because he put the blame on Danny for the arguement when he said "you should piss Lindsay off more often". That makes me wonder what version Danny told him.

Oh, I definitely agree Flack does his best not to get in the middle of things with D/L. But you know, I'm not sure it's just about what version of the S4 fight he got, because he saw both sides, and I'm fairly sure he would be able to draw his own conclusions about it. I didn't see coldness in the "I'll make some calls" line in PF (gah, and he was looking directly at her when he said it), because during certain parts of PF she seemed to purposely get around talking to Danny by addressing him instead, and he seemed to realize it. He was the one she kind of glared at through the windows when the cheerleaders were putting on lipstick, and he was the one who reacted with a grin. I just think if they were pissy around each other, it would show more. Although I guess they might've been pissy at each other in the beginning of the episode...

Quote:
I remember that, too, and I always thought Flack was sort of miffed that she was there and interrupted what was supposed to be his night with Danny. Obviously that was the killer's fault but Flack seemed peeved anyway. Just one of those moments where I get the feeling he's not her biggest fan.

That's a good point. I also wondered if he didn't like being challenged by her wanting to look at the scene from another angle. Sort of "isn't my report good enough for you" which would be in keeping with how Lindsay always challenges everything. I know that Flack would always side with Danny because of his loyalty to him, but I just can't see him being pissy with Lindsay on the job over Danny. Flack is way too professional for that...doesn't fit with his suit and tie! It would be more in keeping, for me anyway, for him to be pissy because she didn't trust his view on what happened. Almost the same way she did with Stella, except Stella yelled at her and Flack just went cold and formal on her.

I think I can see this interpretation, actually...although LOL, I feel I should point out Lindsay was right in both cases. [if the Stella-case is the one I'm thinking about - that psychotherapist who said a limo driver murdered her husband, which didn't match the evidence? And then in PF, it was basically the cameras from the game that solved the case.]

Originally Posted by Top41:
Quote:
But he's also not living in a dreamworld where Danny is concerned either. He knows how emotional Danny is and how he reacts to stressful emotional situations that he gets himself into. I think Flack realizes that with Danny there is always more going on than what he tells the first time around. That's why I think the look he gave Danny when he made the comment was rather searching instead of pointed. He just didn't want to come right out and say "okay, what's really going on here".

Flack knows how Danny can be, yes, but he also knows how deeply Danny is grieving and there is no one who gives Danny more leeway when he's upset than Flack does. Flack lets Danny storm out of diners on him and be a little brat when he's in trouble because Flack cares that much about Danny. So I really don't see him having a lot of patience for Lindsay laying into Danny when Danny is already down and hurting.
[/QUOTE]

It'd be nice if we could see that. :shifty: But at the same time, I still think Flack had to be aware of both sides of the equation...because the way he acts usually indicates that he has to be (I'm sorry, tension or whatnot, Flack was way too friendly to Lindsay after "Sleight Out of Hand" for someone who'd seen her act the way she did toward Danny in S3) and he was present for at least a bit of the drama on both sides. Plus, Flack gives Danny a lot of leeway, but he is pretty harsh with him sometimes even when he's down and hurting (the way he was shouting that one-hour ultimatum after Danny as he left with Rikki in AitF? I've looked at it a hundred times, and it still seems harsh to me).

Oh gosh, I know this post came sooo late, but I'm going to try to get back sometime during the day tomorrow!

 

[Top41]

The difference between Danny and Lindsay's "self-destruction-at-work" isn't the way they handle it, it's the way other people handle it, or react to them. They handle it the same - offer an explanation for their behaviour; it's just in Lindsay's case, people always (unrealistically) accept her reasons. In Danny's case, not so much. Off the bat, I'm really only recalling 3 instances where Danny's been in trouble at work. Two out of those three times, he's compounded the problem because he feels he was right, and that was his explanation for his behaviour. He was fairly defensive of his "I'm right" stance in Crime and Misdemeanour even when Mac confronted him at the end, and certainly in "On the Job". The third time, "Run Silent", he was likewise defensive, telling Mac he was innocent. Only that time, it was accepted. If/when Danny gets that he messed up in all three cases, it's because other people tell him that he's messed up, and his reasons for doing so aren't good enough. No one ever does that with Lindsay.

Yeah, definitely, and I think that's one of the most Mary-Sue-ish things about Lindsay, the fact that no one really holds her accountable for her actions. At the same time, if she's been taught through experience that people will let her off the hook, then her actions are nowhere near as self-destructive as those of Danny, who has been taught the opposite. If you think you can get away with something, it's not really consciously self-destructive to do it, is it? Or at least not as much so as the guy who knows he's going to get in trouble for it, but does it anyway.

I think Lindsay doesn't show classic PTSD because she's a character cop on a TV show - more importantly, she's the most unrealistic, patched-together character on CSI:NY to date.

Agreed, and that's why I see her more as a Mary Sue love interest character than a character in her own right. The story determines how she reacts, not the other way around. She's written the way they need her to be in any given episode, rather than the way the other characters are written, which incorporates their unique personalities into their actions. Characters should drive story, but the reverse is true of Lindsay--she is the way she is in any given episode depending on what the script needs her to be.

I think she's meant to have PTSD - but only when it's convenient for the writers, or when it doesn't interfere with the episode plot.

I'm not so sure she is though--I think she was meant to be shown as going through something, but once that trial was done, she was fine. There hasn't been a single reference to her past since Katums was convicted, which makes me think it was more of a obstacle she had to overcome rather than something that permanently defined or damaged her, at least as far as the writers are concerned.

It's why I really don't think the writers did their research or put much thought into her character, hence the inconsistencies, and the selective outbursts. If they had, they probably would've realized they were trying to create the impossible. She was written to be a bubbly, tough, up-for-anything Mary Sue while also being the traumatized survivor of a bloody past. The two descriptions are practically direct contradictions - and it shows.

Agreed, completely, though I think the traumatized survivor is as much a Mary Sue as the bubbly, tough girl is. That's kind of the classic Mary Sue, isn't it--the girl who has survived a terrible ordeal but has overcome it, except when she freaks out on occasion, conveniently in the company of the sexiest guy on the show. Isn't that Lindsay to a T?

I don't think it's that she expects them to - I think it's that they just do.

I certainly think she expected Danny to in "Oedipus Hex." And if experience has taught her people will let her get away with the scattered behavior, why would she expect anyone to treat her differently the next time she does something like have an outburst or leave a crime scene?

I'm not sure - that conversation happened after she'd already turned down Danny's proposal. Also, I remember Stella specifically asking if the baby's father was involved, and Lindsay said "Yeah, and he's great" - which makes me think it wasn't so much about Lindsay just not being sure where things stood with her and Danny. She seemed to already know he'd back her, if Stella ever went to him about it.

Oh, no, I meant she wanted to tell people with Danny, kind of like they went to Mac together. So that could have factored in to her not sharing the truth with Stella.

I don't think she was sending the message that she didn't want to be friends, ever - she was the one to start the Jaws conversation.

I always took that as her kind of falling back into old habits and joking around with him like she would have before, and then getting that pang of, "Oh yeah, we're broken up."

It just seemed like she wasn't ready to jump right back into being hang-out buddies with him...and considering she'd just split with the guy after telling him she was in love with him, I so can't blame her for needing time. It really seemed like she was trying to get back to that point, though. But Danny kept pushing because he was impatient. That's what frustrated me, because it frustrated me in the whole S5 baby-marriage debacle too. If he'd just sat back and waited for a while, he could've had Lindsay back as a friend.

Danny is immature and impatient--he's like a child. He should have waited on both fronts, but he's insecure and needy and pushed. Personally, after the way she treated him, I think he should have dumped her ass and not looked back. That's what a healthy guy would have done, but Danny is in no way emotionally healthy.

I do think she ideally would've liked him back romantically, but I can't see her not being okay with it if he'd decided he didn't want her back romantically.

I saw her pushing him away anytime he tried to approach her about anything other than the job. I get that she needed time--and that makes total sense--but to Danny that sent the message, "I don't want you in my life if you're not in my bed." That was the message he received, even if it wasn't the one she was trying to send, though I do still think she was punishing him a bit. She wanted to hurt him because she was hurt.

Yes! There was no real epiphany of his that was supposed to say he wanted her back - even in PF, during the first morgue conversation he didn't seem to want to talk about what she'd actually said to him.

I wonder what he wanted to talk about then--the cold way she'd been treating him? What do you think? Because he obviously wanted to talk about something personal, but there was never that a-ha moment, either before that or after where he clearly wanted her back. I don't even think he necessarily did during that phone call--he just told her he missed her. Whether that was a friend or lover, we don't know, although of course he played the Ace he knew he had when he invited her over.

I guess I can see this, but I still have to say if she'd actually meant it to be a backhanded insult, or even meant him to take it as a backhanded insult, she would've phrased it differently. She would've said to him what she said to Mac. Because I can see how, given how mad she was during that conversation, "mad at myself" might not be taken completely at face value. But I still think for the most part, it could be - especially if someone were to just take it out of context. "Stupid of me to fall for you" - it doesn't matter how out of context you take that, it's still an insult.

True, but at the same time, I thought during that conversation she had with him, or monologue really, it was very clear that her anger was directed at him. She built to that "I'm mad at myself" bit and it felt like the final punch at the end.

Argh, I still can't forgive the writers for S5. They really, really could've and should've gone a different route with Anna Belknap's pregnancy, even written it out completely.

Agreed, completely!!

The joking in LWFM really didn't sound like Lindsay just wanted him back - she barely looked at Danny the entire time she was talking to him (at least, not until she said "this is hard"). And she waited a bit before she started talking. That's what makes me think she debated a bit internally before deciding she should probably try. In their old pattern, she was definitely more direct.

She was clearly heartbroken over him in LWFM. I think that episode showed she concluded that she couldn't really be friends with him.

They didn't interact in "Admissions", but Lindsay didn't exactly seem like she was especially down or angry in that episode.

Well, I think that in large part has to do with Belknap's limitations as an actress--there's absolutely no subtlety to her performance whatsoever. It's also a CSI show where there isn't a lot of room for that stuff to come through, but at the same time, the better actors on the show make it a component of their performance if their characters are dealing with some sort of emotional stress.

She walked away in PF when he started pushing for personal conversation. When things were strictly work-related, she was fine - teasing him about lipstick shades, even almost-laughing at one of his jokes. I thought she was handling being around him fine, so long as things stayed professional.

Yeah, but she clearly couldn't handle being friends, and that seemed to be what Danny wanted back.

That's kind of what I was getting at - everything he does relating to her seems to be about making sure she stays with him; not about particular interest or investment in the relationship itself. I think he at least picked up on the fact that shutting her out was Lindsay's big issue with him in Season 4, only he's still doing it. I can see how he'd be worried about what she'd think on hearing about his recklessness, and it's so true about the no trust or honest communication - but it's not only that. On the phone, Lindsay just seemed to ask what was going on - why not at least tell her about the case, about Marty Pino's involvement? He probably wouldn't even have had to talk about the shootout. Forget no honest communication, it's just no communication, period.

Exactly, and that's one of the biggest reasons they're such an unrealistic couple. Real couples communicate--they have to, or the relationship breaks down. It's just such a cookie-cutter, unrealistic romance.

Things like "we make sense", "you're everything I've always wanted", "I want to be with you" (gah, it sounded like he swallowed a bad Harlequin novel :shifty...yeah, he so never actually said the words, but phrases like that do kind of heavily imply romantic interest, rather than fear of abandonment. He didn't even mention the baby in the second proposal. I think that fear is clear enough for Lindsay to see it, even if she's ignoring it. But I also think she's not only being blinded by her own love/lust; he's directly feeding it.

Sure, but I felt like he didn't mention the baby because he knew she'd immediately assume he was pushing because of the baby. It felt like he learned and just spouted out what she needed/wanted to hear. The fact that he's only said "I love you" once is pretty telling. And wasn't it "I do love you"? Kind of like he was trying to convince her and himself. It all feels like he's just attempting to convince them both.

He laughed when she said that "do you have any idea how hard you are to love?" line, which makes me think he wasn't at all injured by it.

To me, that line reinforces every bad thing Danny has ever thought about himself. It gets to the heart of why he's with her--he's practically impossible to love, so he damn well better cling to the one person that claims she loves him, even if she does treat him like dirt much of the time. As much as he uses her love for him to keep her with him, she plays on his insecurities to keep him needy and vulnerable and never sure of whether she's going to stay with him or leave him.

She's told him she knew he wasn't going anywhere.

Why on earth, after what she put him through in season three and then walking away from him when he needed her in season four, would he ever believe her?

She specifically implied he already was the man she wanted him to be, in Green Piece (even though I totally don't buy that he was). And she told Stella that he was "great" in the Triangle.Being entirely fair, the last time she told him directly how wonderful she thought he was, he told her not to goof off.

Right, but she's also shown him that at the first sign of trouble, she's more than ready to cut and run. There's no security there, and more than anything, a guy like Danny who is so insecure, needs that. Words are cheap; actions are much more telling, and Lindsay's actions have communicated again and again to Danny that she's more than willing to leave him if it suits her. And for every nice thing she's said about him, there's a nasty little dig like, "Do you have any idea how hard you are to love?" or "I know you."

 

[Top41]

Part two!

It has been really unhealthy, but that thing he has of just jumping into things, rather than waiting to think with a cooler head...that plays a big part. I totally disagree that Lindsay wanted him as a boyfriend, or not at all - I think Lindsay was giving every indication that she was ready to be friends with him again, just not on a personal level. I thought that personal level would come in time - like it did the first time, Season 2, had he just waited a bit. And like with the baby-marriage thing, had he waited, Lindsay might've married him down the road without him having to mislead her, once she was at least fairly certain he wasn't just marrying her for Lucy. I know he jumps the gun because he doesn't trust her to stay. But I still really think it's a harsh misjudgment of Lindsay. And then what drives me crazy is how he's the one who just decides that her ultimatum is "romance or nothing" before he acts on it.

I guess I just don't feel like it's a harsh misjudgment of her based on the way she's treated him. It's one thing to be pushed away by a co-worker you have a crush on, but by the mother of your child? I think Danny would have a breakdown if he was shut out of his child's life, and based on her own actions, Lindsay certainly seems capable of doing just that. Given his insecurities and her behavior, I can understand where he was coming from.

Yeah he and Hawkes were jokey, but his response to Hawkes was something along the lines of "Don't worry about it, you'd do the same for me, right?" He wasn't brusque, nor did he entirely brush Hawkes off. He's usually awkward with praise, but he usually lets it go with either no response, or a fairly easy remark. I think Danny didn't mean his brush-off to Lindsay to be taken as anything other than a joke, but it was sort of harsh - and I can't get over the fact that Lindsay actually did seem stung by it.

His tone was pretty teasing and she kind of smiled, didn't she? And I think he did pretty much brush Hawkes off, in a nice way. "Don't worry about it"? He saved the guy's life, but he was definitely downplaying that. Danny didn't think he did anything extraordinary because Danny's self-esteem is pretty much zero.

Maybe, but we can't know this, and I'm still highly unsure of it. To me he seemed highly upset after seeing Ruben in the morgue before Mac came in, way more upset than he seemed after talking to Mac. If there were a time he should've shut down, that would probably be it (especially given the shock thing) - but he could wait for Mac, like he could wait for Flack or almost anyone else. It just really seems like Lindsay was the one exception.

I think it was pretty obvious that it didn't have anything to do with Lindsay because he was already on his way out when she walked in. He worked himself up when talking to Mac and then rushed out--and just didn't stop when Lindsay called his name. I don't think her appearance made him leave, and by that point he was so upset that I don't think anything could get him to stay.

And Danny has run from people he cares about, too. He stormed out of the diner in "On the Job," leaving poor Flack there all alone--and with the check! :lol:

He ignored Flack's calls because he knew Flack was just going to tell him to do something he didn't want to (turn Rikki in). That was after the four-hour search for Ollie Barnes; Flack already knew the situation, because Danny had told him of it. There was only one thing he would've been calling about. I don't think Danny would've ignored Flack's calls had they been coming when Lindsay's had been; at the beginning of AitF.

I think Danny would have ignored everybody's calls because he was focused on finding Rikki and his gun. I can't imagine that Flack didn't call Danny before basically breaking into his place. It seems to me that Danny knew he was being reckless and was just shutting everyone out. Flack literally forced his way into the situation and more or less forced Danny to take his help.

I still don't think it's an easy thing to guess at - especially considering D/L v.01 "officially" started about a year after Louie, Aiden, and Flack's injuries/deaths.

Danny's interest in a romance with Lindsay started in 303 (or 302 at the end), just after their injuries/deaths.

She might've figured that given his fragility, he was clinging to her after "Not What it Looks Like" (if she did, it could probably explain that much more), but after clinging that hard for almost a year, why assume that he would just be offering up sex to placate her? Especially given how hard she'd pushed him away - it's not the first conclusion I would have come to.

No, maybe it wasn't a natural assumptions, but Danny was pretty passive after the trial; she was the one making all of the moves.

It's true, I think she should've guessed more easily the second time around (I'd always assumed she had, until I heard we were supposed to see PF as the night Lindsay got pregnant). If she hadn't...well, that might explain the cold-spell between PF and The Box. It's not the most natural thing to assume the guy doesn't want it when he's the one actively pressing the issue. It would be okay if Danny was just emotionally fragile and insecure, but the odd tenacity that comes with his insecurities is the problem. That's what sends the signals that would not lead most people to come to the conclusion that he's that insecure.

I wouldn't quite say that--I think his insecurities are pretty obvious, but it might not let people make the leap that he's doing something that's completely driven by them. I do keep coming back to Danny never really saying "I love you" or making moves of a romantic kind. He wants her in his life and pushes for that, but seems to stop short when it comes to anything of a sexual/romantic nature. There was nothing romantic in that phone call, aside from the implied offer of sex, which seemed a desperate, last ditch effort after she refused all his efforts to talk. She didn't want to talk, but Danny knew what she did want and finally offered it up after everything else failed. And clearly, she took him up on it.

In season five, it seemed to be patently all about Lucy. There was obvious reticence every time he spoke about Lindsay, from the way he talked about her in "The Box" (the only positive was when the parents asked if her being different was a good thing and he said, "Oh yeah" but with little enthusiasm) to his need-to-prove it "I do love you" in "The Triangle" to his "I don't know" with Mac in "Green Piece." The one thing he clearly was excited about? Lucy. No doubt of that.

If that's the case, there's no reason to assume Danny wouldn't have likewise told Flack stories about Lindsay. She does seem to feel she can take liberties with him, but I'd assume there's a reason for that beyond "Danny likes him", especially given how quickly I think Flack would've told Lindsay those liberties weren't welcome - if they really weren't. I can't see her simply assuming that someone likes her, especially when there might be even subtle hints that they really don't. Mostly because that's just not an easy assumption for socially-awkward people to make, but also because it seems somewhat OOC for Lindsay.

I see hints from Flack, but I do think Lindsay misses them. She might think she knows Flack better than she does because of stories Danny has told her, or things he's said.

I remember him looking at her in AitF when he told Lindsay he'd find Danny...and again when the phone call with the bail-bondsman ended. I don't know, he's never seemed inattentive to her, to me.

He did to me, or at least closed off. I remember him looking at her when he said he'd find Danny, but this is Flack. Danny's in danger, Flack's going to save him. Flack does have something of a super-hero complex, so of course he's going to emphasize that.

Wasn't Cool Hunter the first time he'd met her? I remember the walking-out thing - and see, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about when I mention Lindsay registering even slight hints of hostility, because I really didn't think that Flack was being purposely rude with it (he even talked directly to her in the interrogation), but she seemed to pick up on that walking-out thing, too. And then I think she was kind of stand-offish to him in Stealing Home, the next episode I think they worked together in, but she seemed more comfortable around him after that. That's why I really think if she was still sensing even a hint of hostility, there would be no teasing or jokes.

She was standoffish to everyone in "Stealing Home" because the case affected her personally. I don't think it had anything to do with what she was or wasn't picking up from Flack earlier in the season.

Oh, I definitely agree Flack does his best not to get in the middle of things with D/L. But you know, I'm not sure it's just about what version of the S4 fight he got, because he saw both sides, and I'm fairly sure he would be able to draw his own conclusions about it. I didn't see coldness in the "I'll make some calls" line in PF (gah, and he was looking directly at her when he said it), because during certain parts of PF she seemed to purposely get around talking to Danny by addressing him instead, and he seemed to realize it. He was the one she kind of glared at through the windows when the cheerleaders were putting on lipstick, and he was the one who reacted with a grin. I just think if they were pissy around each other, it would show more. Although I guess they might've been pissy at each other in the beginning of the episode...

Yeah, he grinned at Lindsay's obvious annoyance. Flack's really, really mature most of the time, but I do think he delights a bit in Lindsay's annoyance/unhappiness now and then, kind of like he did at the beginning of the episode with that joke.

I think I can see this interpretation, actually...although LOL, I feel I should point out Lindsay was right in both cases. [if the Stella-case is the one I'm thinking about - that psychotherapist who said a limo driver murdered her husband, which didn't match the evidence? And then in PF, it was basically the cameras from the game that solved the case.]

Mary Sue alert! She's always right. Well, maybe not always, but perhaps her insufferable smugness annoys Flack. I remember cheering for Stella when she chewed Lindsay out in "Open and Shut," even though I knew Stella's bias was affecting her judgment. Lindsay can just be so insufferable sometimes!

It'd be nice if we could see that. :shifty: But at the same time, I still think Flack had to be aware of both sides of the equation...because the way he acts usually indicates that he has to be (I'm sorry, tension or whatnot, Flack was way too friendly to Lindsay after "Sleight Out of Hand" for someone who'd seen her act the way she did toward Danny in S3) and he was present for at least a bit of the drama on both sides.

The only times I remember him being friendly to her were in front of Danny. And he wasn't going to snark her in front of Danny. In large part I think that's because Flack just gets so goofy-happy around Danny. Unless Danny is in danger or upset, Flack tends to have a goofy grin on his face when Danny is around and is often joking or teasing Danny.

Plus, Flack gives Danny a lot of leeway, but he is pretty harsh with him sometimes even when he's down and hurting (the way he was shouting that one-hour ultimatum after Danny as he left with Rikki in AitF? I've looked at it a hundred times, and it still seems harsh to me).

It was harsh, because Flack was terrified Danny was going to make a huge mistake. If Ollie pressed charges against Rikki and Danny didn't turn her in, he'd be implicated in that. And Flack will fight tooth and nail to protect Danny--even if the person he had to protect Danny from is Danny himself (and his poor, poor judgment :lol: ). I didn't see it as harsh so much as commanding--Flack went total Alpha Dog on Danny throughout the whole episode, and Danny mostly passively accepted it (turning over the list, not telling Flack to get lost when he showed up in the alley) until that moment. Flack was being forceful because he was afraid Danny was going to make a big, huge mistake, not because he was actually mad at Danny.

 

[Maya316]

Yeah, definitely, and I think that's one of the most Mary-Sue-ish things about Lindsay, the fact that no one really holds her accountable for her actions. At the same time, if she's been taught through experience that people will let her off the hook, then her actions are nowhere near as self-destructive as those of Danny, who has been taught the opposite. If you think you can get away with something, it's not really consciously self-destructive to do it, is it? Or at least not as much so as the guy who knows he's going to get in trouble for it, but does it anyway.

True, although we can't really speculate whether she's been taught all her life that people will let her off the hook. She always seems to expect that she'll get into trouble - even if she never does, which makes me think she acts feeling that she's wrecking/has wrecked her career. (If she expected Danny to let her off the hook in "Hex", she probably wouldn't have felt the need to snap, let alone give her reasons; then there was her defensiveness with Stella in Silent Night; and the way she took Mac's reprimand to heart in LWFM)

Agreed, and that's why I see her more as a Mary Sue love interest character than a character in her own right. The story determines how she reacts, not the other way around. She's written the way they need her to be in any given episode, rather than the way the other characters are written, which incorporates their unique personalities into their actions. Characters should drive story, but the reverse is true of Lindsay--she is the way she is in any given episode depending on what the script needs her to be.

Also true. And believe me, she's not the only new female character I've seen in this show who is so ridiculously contrived to just fit "perfectly" into the stories. But what drives me nuts is that I really think Lindsay has so much potential to be more. It's possible for Mary Sues to grow into realistic, substantial, believable characters; and I see all these interesting character gimmicks and mini-arcs of Lindsay's that make me think the writers could so easily take her character in a different, better direction. If they weren't clinging to D/L with the tenacity of a rabid shark. But then, I keep hoping.

I'm not so sure she is though--I think she was meant to be shown as going through something, but once that trial was done, she was fine. There hasn't been a single reference to her past since Katums was convicted, which makes me think it was more of a obstacle she had to overcome rather than something that permanently defined or damaged her, at least as far as the writers are concerned.

There are some things that have remained consistent. We always see Stella, Mac, Flack, Danny, even Hawkes strap on bullet-proof vests and join in shootouts, even when it's not really their job to. Lindsay never joins in - it's like they make a point of it, in keeping with her fear-of-guns. We've never really seen her process a scene with teenage girls since S3, but the one time she saw a pool of blood on a diner floor belonging to someone she knew, we saw her freeze. It's just that when the writers feel the need to add what I'm sure they thought was a cute, ratings-snatching scene (Flack and Angell, and Danny and Lindsay armed and raiding the doctor's house in DOA for a Day, like some weird double-date), Lindsay's issues get shafted.

Agreed, completely, though I think the traumatized survivor is as much a Mary Sue as the bubbly, tough girl is. That's kind of the classic Mary Sue, isn't it--the girl who has survived a terrible ordeal but has overcome it, except when she freaks out on occasion, conveniently in the company of the sexiest guy on the show. Isn't that Lindsay to a T?

LOL, so true. But seriously, it's flat-out impossible to make such a character seem believable and realistic, let alone sympathetic. Hence, I think, the problem with the way Lindsay often comes across.

Oh, no, I meant she wanted to tell people with Danny, kind of like they went to Mac together. So that could have factored in to her not sharing the truth with Stella.

I guess I can see this - although I think if she were waiting to tell people with Danny, she also would've waited to bring up the safety issue. It wasn't like it was a particularly pressing issue - Stella basically told her to do what she'd always been doing. Instead, it seemed like the safety issue was on Lindsay's mind for quite some time, but she didn't know how Stella would respond to knowing she was pregnant - and so brought it up in the most unnecessary roundabout way.

I always took that as her kind of falling back into old habits and joking around with him like she would have before, and then getting that pang of, "Oh yeah, we're broken up."

I think I can see this too - it did seem like the Jaws conversation got more familiar and personal than she expected it too, until she was suddenly in too deep. But I still come back to her starting the conversation in the first place. Danny seemed really surprised when she started to talk, and that little awkward pause between when he entered the room and when she started to talk makes me think she made a conscious decision/effort to stay on friendly terms with him.

Danny is immature and impatient--he's like a child. He should have waited on both fronts, but he's insecure and needy and pushed. Personally, after the way she treated him, I think he should have dumped her ass and not looked back. That's what a healthy guy would have done, but Danny is in no way emotionally healthy.

Well, he did dump her. But a healthy guy would probably have stuck with the decision, rather than deciding he needed her in his life to love him. Then again, a healthy guy would probably have dumped her once he realized he wasn't interested, rather than letting things drag out to that point, so...

I saw her pushing him away anytime he tried to approach her about anything other than the job. I get that she needed time--and that makes total sense--but to Danny that sent the message, "I don't want you in my life if you're not in my bed." That was the message he received, even if it wasn't the one she was trying to send, though I do still think she was punishing him a bit. She wanted to hurt him because she was hurt.

He shouldn't have been approaching her about anything other than the job! I get his insecurities, and that he didn't want to lose her now that he knew she was one more person who loved him guaranteed - but that wasn't really his call to make, especially given that a) he didn't feel the same way, and basically told her so; b) he split with her. If he did get hurt between RND and PF, that was on him ... I think Lindsay was trying, but she so obviously still had feelings for him, was hurt he didn't feel the same and wasn't ready to be friends with him right away. She shouldn't have to pretend she was ready.

I wonder what he wanted to talk about then--the cold way she'd been treating him? What do you think? Because he obviously wanted to talk about something personal, but there was never that a-ha moment, either before that or after where he clearly wanted her back. I don't even think he necessarily did during that phone call--he just told her he missed her. Whether that was a friend or lover, we don't know, although of course he played the Ace he knew he had when he invited her over.

I think he wanted to clear the air, honestly. Make sure she wasn't angry at him, maybe even ask her something along the lines of renting Jaws again...clear the air in a way that would keep her in his life, basically. I do understand the motivation, but I really think it would've been fairer if he'd done what he did in S3, given her space to clear the air between them on her own pace. I don't think Lindsay was treating him coldly, exactly; when they were just being coworkers, they were bantering just as friendly-ish as they ever had. It was just that right then, she was refusing to stay in his life on a more personal level - and I get how that might've bothered him, but again, I really don't think it was his call to make. Especially since his reasons for wanting her to stay in his life seemed to have very little to do with her, or concern for her - they seemed to have everything to do with him, and his not wanting to lose someone who loved him. If it was at all about her, he would've given her the space, like he's done before.

She was clearly heartbroken over him in LWFM. I think that episode showed she concluded that she couldn't really be friends with him.

I agree she was heartbroken in LWFM, but it seemed like she was trying to get over it. Yeah, she had her meltdown, but she was working fine with Danny again at the end of that very same episode - no bantering, but she wasn't hostile or anything. They were back to bantering in Personal Foul, so long as he stayed away from anything personal. I think in the same baby steps as Lindsay uses with everything, she would've gone back to being friends with him eventually.

Well, I think that in large part has to do with Belknap's limitations as an actress--there's absolutely no subtlety to her performance whatsoever. It's also a CSI show where there isn't a lot of room for that stuff to come through, but at the same time, the better actors on the show make it a component of their performance if their characters are dealing with some sort of emotional stress.

I don't know about that - I thought Belknap managed to subtly convey a lot of Lindsay's emotions in other instances. Like her peppiness at the beginning of S4, even in episodes where she doesn't interact with Danny? Or the way her concern over Stella translated into aggravation in "All Access". And I thought she seemed fairly down in episodes leading up to "Silent Night" and "The Lying Game", even though her past was never actually mentioned in any of those episodes...and even in "My Name is Mac Taylor", I thought Lindsay was kind of subdued, which made sense after The Box came out.

Yeah, but she clearly couldn't handle being friends, and that seemed to be what Danny wanted back.

Still not his call to make. Ideally, he should've given her time until she could handle being friends again. But yeah, I know Danny's impatient

Sure, but I felt like he didn't mention the baby because he knew she'd immediately assume he was pushing because of the baby. It felt like he learned and just spouted out what she needed/wanted to hear. The fact that he's only said "I love you" once is pretty telling. And wasn't it "I do love you"? Kind of like he was trying to convince her and himself. It all feels like he's just attempting to convince them both.

It really did feel like he'd just spouted off what she wanted to hear...but he really didn't meant it, and I think he knew he didn't mean it. And that's what I mean about him feeding the illusion. She is not "everything he's always wanted" - even if he had the first clue what he's always wanted, I don't think Lindsay would be it. Why tell her she is? I know, because he wanted her to say yes, but that was him being insincere right there.

He said something like "I want you to know that I love you" in the Triangle; and then said "I love you" twice in Greater Good on the phone, right after he told her not to have Lucy until he got there, because he didn't want to miss it. Those two I love yous definitely sounded like he was trying to convince himself that he did, but they made me :brickwall:, because if he just shouldn't have said them.

To me, that line reinforces every bad thing Danny has ever thought about himself. It gets to the heart of why he's with her--he's practically impossible to love, so he damn well better cling to the one person that claims she loves him, even if she does treat him like dirt much of the time. As much as he uses her love for him to keep her with him, she plays on his insecurities to keep him needy and vulnerable and never sure of whether she's going to stay with him or leave him.

I thought that line was just Lindsay being very honest - he's very endearing, but Danny would be very hard to love, and has been for Lindsay. Hell, we were talking about just that earlier in the thread. He shuts down because he never believes the other person really cares about him, no matter how much they show it - and the more they show it, the more he refuses to believe it...and then when they finally give up, he starts to cling because he doesn't want them to leave. It would flat-out hurt to be that other person.

As for how Danny took that line, I say we have to actually see that Danny registered something hurtful in it, before we assume that it was hurtful. He laughed and told her to come over so she could say it again - I'm sorry, I just don't see how he could've seen it as hurtful.

Why on earth, after what she put him through in season three and then walking away from him when he needed her in season four, would he ever believe her?

I meant more that she specifically told him she trusted him not to go anywhere, which would've (I think) reinforced in him a belief that she was seeing him as a guy she could count on. Hence, a good guy. Positive reinforcement. She was telling him she thought he was good enough.

Right, but she's also shown him that at the first sign of trouble, she's more than ready to cut and run. There's no security there, and more than anything, a guy like Danny who is so insecure, needs that. Words are cheap; actions are much more telling, and Lindsay's actions have communicated again and again to Danny that she's more than willing to leave him if it suits her. And for every nice thing she's said about him, there's a nasty little dig like, "Do you have any idea how hard you are to love?" or "I know you."

You mentioned that she's never told him he was good enough, or that he was wonderful...and well, yes she has. I agree actions are more telling than words, but for every time she's indicated to him that she'll run at the first sign of trouble, there's also a time she's made it very clear that she's behind him all the way. The DNA results in "Run Silent", her showing up at the warehouse in "Snow Day", her concern in "The Deep". In the Ruben-arc fallout, I'd really disagree that that scene in the office was the first sign of trouble. I'd say, if I was looking from Lindsay's point of view, if the first sign of trouble wasn't his behaviour from the very beginning of S4, it probably would've been when he ran from her in the morgue (I know he was already on his way out, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lindsay took it as him running from her specifically - especially since he actually waved her off when he heard her voice). And again when he was ignoring her calls in AitF, or when he showed up for work in "Playing With Matches" acting like everything was normal - and most likely, not telling her squat about what happened in AitF. I'd even go so far to say that ignoring her birthday was a sign of trouble, although he did have bigger things to worry about. I really think the skipped lunch (plus the possibility that she knew he was sleeping with Rikki) might've been the last straw, rather than the first sign of trouble.

Danny might not be aware of all the other straws, hence why he might see it as her running at the first sign of trouble. But if he isn't, I really don't think he has much of a leg to stand on when he fears she might leave him; given how he flat-out ignores her when she's around and supporting him.


...And, part 2 coming up!

 

[Maya316]

I guess I just don't feel like it's a harsh misjudgment of her based on the way she's treated him. It's one thing to be pushed away by a co-worker you have a crush on, but by the mother of your child? I think Danny would have a breakdown if he was shut out of his child's life, and based on her own actions, Lindsay certainly seems capable of doing just that. Given his insecurities and her behavior, I can understand where he was coming from.

Lindsay would shut him out of Lucy's life? I've never seen one thing that would indicate that - not even her "I know you" line. It's a harsh misjudgment of Lindsay because she has had his back enough times when he's been in trouble, even at the expense of her job (twice), even if he's ignored her when she does it, for him to just jump to the conclusion that she won't care about him at all if she's not his girlfriend/wife. Lindsay and Danny, imo, have always been at their best as friends. The love-romance aspect of their relationship is messed up as anything I've ever seen before - but it's always been clear that if nothing else, they care about each other as friends...so it's just annoying that Danny doesn't seem to trust at least that. Especially considering that he used to find it easier to trust that she'd care when she was just his friend (S2, S3). But he doesn't seem to trust that she'd come back to him as a friend if he gave her time to - and so never gives/gave her space to step back and get over him. That's unfair.

His tone was pretty teasing and she kind of smiled, didn't she? And I think he did pretty much brush Hawkes off, in a nice way. "Don't worry about it"? He saved the guy's life, but he was definitely downplaying that. Danny didn't think he did anything extraordinary because Danny's self-esteem is pretty much zero.

I don't know how teasing his tone was, but she smiled the same way she smiled in RND when Danny refused to answer during that brief pause in her speech. The hurt smile, and she kind of hung her head as she did it. I guess he did brush Hawkes off, but it certainly wasn't in a brusque way.

I think Danny would have ignored everybody's calls because he was focused on finding Rikki and his gun. I can't imagine that Flack didn't call Danny before basically breaking into his place. It seems to me that Danny knew he was being reckless and was just shutting everyone out. Flack literally forced his way into the situation and more or less forced Danny to take his help.

Flack did force his way into the situation, but Danny spilled to him pretty quickly. It just makes me think that if he'd seen Flack's number on his phone, he would've answered, because he seemed to want to tell someone he trusted what was going on. Would Flack have needed to call Danny before breaking into his place? He did knock on the door first. And he might've just assumed that since Lindsay said he wasn't answering his phone, Danny wouldn't answer it to his number, either.

Danny's interest in a romance with Lindsay started in 303 (or 302 at the end), just after their injuries/deaths.

Yeah, but she only started taking him up on that interest late S3, long after at least Flack (and possibly Louie's) injuries had healed.

No, maybe it wasn't a natural assumptions, but Danny was pretty passive after the trial; she was the one making all of the moves.

Still not sure about this - I can't imagine Lindsay keeping up with "making all the moves" if Danny wasn't making at least one move in response. Even in S2 she didn't do that. Plus, they were playing pool at his place in Snow Day, and then he's the one who took the initiative of taking her shift.

I wouldn't quite say that--I think his insecurities are pretty obvious, but it might not let people make the leap that he's doing something that's completely driven by them. I do keep coming back to Danny never really saying "I love you" or making moves of a romantic kind. He wants her in his life and pushes for that, but seems to stop short when it comes to anything of a sexual/romantic nature. There was nothing romantic in that phone call, aside from the implied offer of sex, which seemed a desperate, last ditch effort after she refused all his efforts to talk. She didn't want to talk, but Danny knew what she did want and finally offered it up after everything else failed. And clearly, she took him up on it.

He defaulted to romance when (to him) it seemed like pushing for friendship to keep her in his life wasn't going to work. I completely disagree that Lindsay didn't want to talk. It actually seemed like in that phone call (which, yeah, wasn't romantic, but it ended up being Danny who pushed for romance/sex), Lindsay was the one trying to work out what she'd done wrong ("I tried to give you your space"). But Danny didn't seem to get that. He just blindly agreed to everything she was saying, rather than actually answering her on what she'd done wrong, telling her that it wasn't space that he'd needed - and then when she got frustrated and let the second love confession slip, he used it to invite her over. It really seemed like he was looking for the quick sex fix, the one that would keep her in his life guaranteed, rather than the longer fix that would take extended effort (working on their relationship, working out what had gone wrong). That's where I see the odd clinginess, because he's like a burr - and I think it's easy for Lindsay or anyone else to misinterpret that clinginess as just wanting to be with her. Especially when he just caved to everything she was saying, without ever really giving her a straight answer on what had gone wrong.

In season five, it seemed to be patently all about Lucy. There was obvious reticence every time he spoke about Lindsay, from the way he talked about her in "The Box" (the only positive was when the parents asked if her being different was a good thing and he said, "Oh yeah" but with little enthusiasm) to his need-to-prove it "I do love you" in "The Triangle" to his "I don't know" with Mac in "Green Piece." The one thing he clearly was excited about? Lucy. No doubt of that.

Oh, I definitely agree with this. What I find irritating is that for the most part, all this was revealed to other people, but with Lindsay he very specifically put on the front that he was in love with her. (I don't remember an "I do love you" - I just remember three flat-out, false "I love yous") Which makes me cringe, because I really think she seemed to know anyway that he didn't love her that much, both in The Box, and in all those episodes before Green Piece, but she was mostly fine with it. He didn't need the front.

I see hints from Flack, but I do think Lindsay misses them. She might think she knows Flack better than she does because of stories Danny has told her, or things he's said.

I can't see her missing them, if they really are hints that he doesn't like her. And, well, why assume that Danny has told Lindsay stories of Flack, but hasn't told Flack stories of Lindsay? There's every and no reason to assume for both, I think.

She was standoffish to everyone in "Stealing Home" because the case affected her personally. I don't think it had anything to do with what she was or wasn't picking up from Flack earlier in the season.

She was definitely rudest to Flack in that episode. Snapping at him to arrest James Vackner before storming off? I get that part of it was just her zeal for the case, but even for her that seemed a little on the rude/mean side. She picked up on what she perceived as hostility in Cool Hunter, and it showed - in keeping with what she always does. She's ridiculously touchy. That's why I think if she was still picking up on even a hint of hostility from Flack, it would still show.

Yeah, he grinned at Lindsay's obvious annoyance. Flack's really, really mature most of the time, but I do think he delights a bit in Lindsay's annoyance/unhappiness now and then, kind of like he did at the beginning of the episode with that joke.

I don't see it as delighting in her unhappiness - for example, I'm sure she was annoyed by the guys' predictable response to the cheerleader thing, but it's more than a stretch to say she was unhappy about it. I do think he likes annoying her, but it doesn't seem like it's in an unfriendly way. (I come back to the fact that it was him she was sort-of-glaring at through that window in PF - it really just seemed like more of their bantering thing.)

Mary Sue alert! She's always right. Well, maybe not always, but perhaps her insufferable smugness annoys Flack. I remember cheering for Stella when she chewed Lindsay out in "Open and Shut," even though I knew Stella's bias was affecting her judgment. Lindsay can just be so insufferable sometimes!

Hee hee, true :lol: I'm sure her smugness does annoy Flack, and even Stella - but again, I don't think it's any more unfriendly with Flack than it would be with Stella, honestly.

The only times I remember him being friendly to her were in front of Danny. And he wasn't going to snark her in front of Danny. In large part I think that's because Flack just gets so goofy-happy around Danny. Unless Danny is in danger or upset, Flack tends to have a goofy grin on his face when Danny is around and is often joking or teasing Danny.

He didn't need to call her "Linds" in front of Danny, no matter how goofy-happy he was or how good an impression he wanted to create on Danny. And he was friendly enough in "What Schemes May Come" - I know you saw hostility in his greenhouse remark, but that still came after her long-winded explanation - and he was definitely the first to start laughing when she came in already talking.

It was harsh, because Flack was terrified Danny was going to make a huge mistake. If Ollie pressed charges against Rikki and Danny didn't turn her in, he'd be implicated in that. And Flack will fight tooth and nail to protect Danny--even if the person he had to protect Danny from is Danny himself (and his poor, poor judgment :lol: ). I didn't see it as harsh so much as commanding--Flack went total Alpha Dog on Danny throughout the whole episode, and Danny mostly passively accepted it (turning over the list, not telling Flack to get lost when he showed up in the alley) until that moment. Flack was being forceful because he was afraid Danny was going to make a big, huge mistake, not because he was actually mad at Danny.

Okay, but Flack never said that to Danny when he was yelling - he never said "I'm worried about what'll happen to you", or even "you're making a huge mistake" -- he never even said anything along those lines until Danny had dropped Rikki off at the station (and the closest he came was "I'm your friend, that makes it my business). Of course, Flack's a stoic guy, it's not easy for him to actually say things like that - any easier than it is for Danny, I think. But that's why I thought it seemed harsh - it would've been nice if they hadn't made it seem more like he was yelling out of concern, rather than yelling just to yell.

 

[danny-lindsay4e]

Thank's but i'm ok just reading it's like a daily thing i grab my coffee Vanilla today and sit and read lol.

I'm a D/L fan sorry (shame on me! god strike me down and all that) lol but i like how you both twist and turn each eppie and person into something i've not thought of like.....

Flack's pointed look could be saying "are you gonna tell me what you really did to piss her off" and Danny laughingly replying "no way in hell am I going to tell you how I really messed up this time". His comment about Danny making Lindsay mad could be interpreted as sort of asking without asking.

I think were stuck with these two now we will get some drama like work problems not enough sleep but it's not just a relationship anymore it's a marriage and a family you don't just give that up so easy and as much as i like that i would like to see more to lindsay, like now she's a mom will her and stella be closer? and my fav is flack and lindsay he like's her and in some weired way both have the same humour and i don't think it's just cause she's his best mates girl.

ok shutting up now and going back to my coffee.
debs x

 

[Maya316]

and my fav is flack and lindsay he like's her and in some weired way both have the same humour and i don't think it's just cause she's his best mates girl.

:lol: I know, right - Flack and Lindsay have this kind of fun, snarky, getting-one-up-on-each-other bantering thing that really makes me crack up during most of their interactions. [Although I do think I would pay to see Flack finally get one up on Lindsay - it always seems to be her who "wins", though Flack tries.] I do think Danny is a big part of what they have in common, but what gets me is that they have this dynamic that seems entirely separate from him. Additionally, I really think Flack is really what Lindsay desperately wants to be - stoic, always in control of his emotions, but able to care deeply and show it easily (for the most part).

Of course, ideally I'd prefer to see CSI get over this new fad of hooking up coworkers...my absolute preference would be to see Lindsay get together with someone outside of the lab, show that she has a life outside of work. But honestly, I just like Flack/Lindsay so much better than D/L - not to mention, I think it'd be that much healthier.

 

[Top41]

Apologies in advance--these keep getting longer! In two parts of course...

True, although we can't really speculate whether she's been taught all her life that people will let her off the hook. She always seems to expect that she'll get into trouble - even if she never does, which makes me think she acts feeling that she's wrecking/has wrecked her career. (If she expected Danny to let her off the hook in "Hex", she probably wouldn't have felt the need to snap, let alone give her reasons; then there was her defensiveness with Stella in Silent Night; and the way she took Mac's reprimand to heart in LWFM)

I just think she has a sense of entitlement--these are her issues and everyone else should make allowances for them. You're right that we can't speculate about what's happened in the past in her life with being let off the hook, but what we see on screen tells me that she expects people to cut her some slack. Her attitude totally conveys that.

Also true. And believe me, she's not the only new female character I've seen in this show who is so ridiculously contrived to just fit "perfectly" into the stories. But what drives me nuts is that I really think Lindsay has so much potential to be more. It's possible for Mary Sues to grow into realistic, substantial, believable characters; and I see all these interesting character gimmicks and mini-arcs of Lindsay's that make me think the writers could so easily take her character in a different, better direction. If they weren't clinging to D/L with the tenacity of a rabid shark. But then, I keep hoping.

I'd be curious to see where she would be without D/L, but at the same time, it's not just D/L where I find her unlikable. I think she had potential, say, back in season two, but she's just had one hissy fit too many since then.

There are some things that have remained consistent. We always see Stella, Mac, Flack, Danny, even Hawkes strap on bullet-proof vests and join in shootouts, even when it's not really their job to. Lindsay never joins in - it's like they make a point of it, in keeping with her fear-of-guns.

I've never noticed a real fear of guns from her. She handles them with aplomb on the job ("Bad Beat," "Child's Play" (I think? the ep where she processed a shotgun)) and the only time we saw her freak out was when she had a gun pointed straight at her in "Not What It Looks Like" and to be fair, that would freak most people out. Danny was shaking when he went into the bar where Shane Casey was--when they're in tense situations, they freak out. And even then, Lindsay was able to do what was needed in "Not What It Looks Like." I don't really see a fear of guns from her. I think the reason we don't see her in a bulletproof vest much of the time is because she's kind of been relegated more to the lab, a la Adam.

We've never really seen her process a scene with teenage girls since S3, but the one time she saw a pool of blood on a diner floor belonging to someone she knew, we saw her freeze.

I don't remember her freezing--making that pensive scrunch-face she uses to express any and all emotion, but not freezing.

It's just that when the writers feel the need to add what I'm sure they thought was a cute, ratings-snatching scene (Flack and Angell, and Danny and Lindsay armed and raiding the doctor's house in DOA for a Day, like some weird double-date), Lindsay's issues get shafted.

I just don't see those issues, at least not the one with the gun--both Lindsay and Hawkes are in action far less frequently than Mac, Stella, Danny and Flack.

LOL, so true. But seriously, it's flat-out impossible to make such a character seem believable and realistic, let alone sympathetic. Hence, I think, the problem with the way Lindsay often comes across.

Totally true, but I think a more gifted actress could have done a little better with the role. There are times when I want to like Lindsay, but there's something so off-putting about Belknap.

I guess I can see this - although I think if she were waiting to tell people with Danny, she also would've waited to bring up the safety issue. It wasn't like it was a particularly pressing issue - Stella basically told her to do what she'd always been doing. Instead, it seemed like the safety issue was on Lindsay's mind for quite some time, but she didn't know how Stella would respond to knowing she was pregnant - and so brought it up in the most unnecessary roundabout way.

Yeah, but the safety issue was urgent--clueing in co-workers could wait.

I think I can see this too - it did seem like the Jaws conversation got more familiar and personal than she expected it too, until she was suddenly in too deep. But I still come back to her starting the conversation in the first place. Danny seemed really surprised when she started to talk, and that little awkward pause between when he entered the room and when she started to talk makes me think she made a conscious decision/effort to stay on friendly terms with him.

I imagine it was hard for her to work with him and not be friendly. If she's really in love with him, of course she's going to want to talk to him/joke with him. But then she remembered he didn't love her and got overwhelmed by that.

Well, he did dump her. But a healthy guy would probably have stuck with the decision, rather than deciding he needed her in his life to love him. Then again, a healthy guy would probably have dumped her once he realized he wasn't interested, rather than letting things drag out to that point, so...

See, I don't think he did dump her though. Saying "I'm sorry, we need to talk" isn't dumping someone. Even if that was what he intended to do--which I'm not sure he did--the prelude still isn't an actual dump. I think her saying "I'm in love with you and I need to find a way to get over that" was totally her dumping him. Maybe in a self-preservation way, but it said very clearly that they were done.

He shouldn't have been approaching her about anything other than the job!

Oh, totally agree! He should have let it go. But I think he felt guilty that here she was in love with him, and he tried to react to that the way he thought she'd want, maybe? I think he was pretty confused about how he was supposed to act, really.

I get his insecurities, and that he didn't want to lose her now that he knew she was one more person who loved him guaranteed - but that wasn't really his call to make, especially given that a) he didn't feel the same way, and basically told her so; b) he split with her.

But again... did he really tell her he didn't feel the same way, or did he just not know what to say in that moment? He never said, "I'm sorry, I don't feel the same way you do." He didn't reply at the moment because he was grieving and then shocked on top of it, but he did try to talk to her afterwards. It's hard to know what he was going to say because we didn't really get a chance to hear him say it... unless we think the PF call was pretty much what he intended to say all along?

If he did get hurt between RND and PF, that was on him ... I think Lindsay was trying, but she so obviously still had feelings for him, was hurt he didn't feel the same and wasn't ready to be friends with him right away. She shouldn't have to pretend she was ready.

No, but it also kind of contradicts what she said to him. If she really loved him, wouldn't she want to hear his side of the story, hear what he had to say? The fact that she didn't kind of underscores her selfishness IMO.

I think he wanted to clear the air, honestly. Make sure she wasn't angry at him, maybe even ask her something along the lines of renting Jaws again...clear the air in a way that would keep her in his life, basically. I do understand the motivation, but I really think it would've been fairer if he'd done what he did in S3, given her space to clear the air between them on her own pace.

Yeah, but season three was different--that was about her, not them. There were two of them in whatever they had in season four, and she basically denied him the chance to say his piece until he'd groveled enough.

I don't think Lindsay was treating him coldly, exactly; when they were just being coworkers, they were bantering just as friendly-ish as they ever had. It was just that right then, she was refusing to stay in his life on a more personal level - and I get how that might've bothered him, but again, I really don't think it was his call to make. Especially since his reasons for wanting her to stay in his life seemed to have very little to do with her, or concern for her - they seemed to have everything to do with him, and his not wanting to lose someone who loved him. If it was at all about her, he would've given her the space, like he's done before.

But maybe he would have given her that space, if she'd given him the chance to voice his side?

I agree she was heartbroken in LWFM, but it seemed like she was trying to get over it. Yeah, she had her meltdown, but she was working fine with Danny again at the end of that very same episode - no bantering, but she wasn't hostile or anything. They were back to bantering in Personal Foul, so long as he stayed away from anything personal. I think in the same baby steps as Lindsay uses with everything, she would've gone back to being friends with him eventually.

Maybe, maybe not. He had no way of knowing if she would or not. Knowing Danny, he probably thought she hated him.

I don't know about that - I thought Belknap managed to subtly convey a lot of Lindsay's emotions in other instances. Like her peppiness at the beginning of S4, even in episodes where she doesn't interact with Danny?

I think that was an attempt to reset her to the character she was in the beginning of season two. That started at the end of season three, unrealistically the moment the trial ended.

Or the way her concern over Stella translated into aggravation in "All Access".

That scene grated on me like nothing else, because I felt like she was just reading lines from the script.

And I thought she seemed fairly down in episodes leading up to "Silent Night" and "The Lying Game", even though her past was never actually mentioned in any of those episodes...

Yeah, but the script called for her to be down in those episodes. And I still remember her total "this is supposed to be longing" look at Danny from the cab in "The Lying Game." She's just... unnatural.

and even in "My Name is Mac Taylor", I thought Lindsay was kind of subdued, which made sense after The Box came out.

I didn't pick up on that at all, but as in so many episodes where she's not downright offensive, she kind of blends into the background for me.

Still not his call to make. Ideally, he should've given her time until she could handle being friends again. But yeah, I know Danny's impatient

Of course not, but I think she owed it to him to hear his side of things.

It really did feel like he'd just spouted off what she wanted to hear...but he really didn't meant it, and I think he knew he didn't mean it. And that's what I mean about him feeding the illusion. She is not "everything he's always wanted" - even if he had the first clue what he's always wanted, I don't think Lindsay would be it. Why tell her she is? I know, because he wanted her to say yes, but that was him being insincere right there.

I think the fact that she was carrying his child made that statement about her being everything he's always wanted true in his mind at least. Deluding himself, yes, but not outright insincerity.

He said something like "I want you to know that I love you" in the Triangle; and then said "I love you" twice in Greater Good on the phone, right after he told her not to have Lucy until he got there, because he didn't want to miss it. Those two I love yous definitely sounded like he was trying to convince himself that he did, but they made me :brickwall:, because if he just shouldn't have said them.

Yeah, I remember that feeling off, and a little desperate. I think they were more to convince her than him though--she was having his baby, this baby he wanted so desperately, so I think in that moment he absolutely did love her.

I thought that line was just Lindsay being very honest - he's very endearing, but Danny would be very hard to love, and has been for Lindsay. Hell, we were talking about just that earlier in the thread. He shuts down because he never believes the other person really cares about him, no matter how much they show it - and the more they show it, the more he refuses to believe it...and then when they finally give up, he starts to cling because he doesn't want them to leave. It would flat-out hurt to be that other person.

Oh, I'm sure he's hard to love, but it seems kind of hurtful to tell someone so obviously insecure that.

As for how Danny took that line, I say we have to actually see that Danny registered something hurtful in it, before we assume that it was hurtful. He laughed and told her to come over so she could say it again - I'm sorry, I just don't see how he could've seen it as hurtful.

I don't think Danny did take it as hurtful, because he absolutely and completely believes it. Danny thinks he's hard to love because he's been made to feel that way by so many people (Mac, Lindsay, Louie, etc.). I totally get that Danny is difficult, but look at the way Flack treats him--completely patient, even almost adoring sometimes. Danny is at least as difficult for Flack as he is for other people in his life, but Flack wouldn't tell him in a million years that he's "hard to love" (or hard to be friends with or whatever the guy version is of that :lol: ).

I meant more that she specifically told him she trusted him not to go anywhere, which would've (I think) reinforced in him a belief that she was seeing him as a guy she could count on. Hence, a good guy. Positive reinforcement. She was telling him she thought he was good enough.

Oh, yeah, I see that. It's Danny's unique damage that positive reinforcement doesn't register with him at all.

You mentioned that she's never told him he was good enough, or that he was wonderful...and well, yes she has. I agree actions are more telling than words, but for every time she's indicated to him that she'll run at the first sign of trouble, there's also a time she's made it very clear that she's behind him all the way. The DNA results in "Run Silent", her showing up at the warehouse in "Snow Day", her concern in "The Deep".

Fair enough, especially about RSRD. I've always given her a lot of credit for that. In "Snow Day," he took her shift, so for her not to be there would have been pretty cold. And "The Deep" was one of those instances where Danny was getting overwhelmed with praise he didn't think he deserved, but I do agree she was trying to be nice there.

In the Ruben-arc fallout, I'd really disagree that that scene in the office was the first sign of trouble. I'd say, if I was looking from Lindsay's point of view, if the first sign of trouble wasn't his behaviour from the very beginning of S4, it probably would've been when he ran from her in the morgue (I know he was already on his way out, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lindsay took it as him running from her specifically - especially since he actually waved her off when he heard her voice). And again when he was ignoring her calls in AitF, or when he showed up for work in "Playing With Matches" acting like everything was normal - and most likely, not telling her squat about what happened in AitF. I'd even go so far to say that ignoring her birthday was a sign of trouble, although he did have bigger things to worry about. I really think the skipped lunch (plus the possibility that she knew he was sleeping with Rikki) might've been the last straw, rather than the first sign of trouble.

But those were signs that Danny was in trouble, and rather than reaching out to him to say she cared and wanted to support him, she kind of let it go. I get that she did something nice behind-the-scenes, but he needed her to actually be there for him and she wasn't. I think that communicated to Danny that she didn't care about him, even if that wasn't what she meant to communicate. And so when he totally pulled away and she got mad at him, rather than trying to communicate and work it out, she cut and run.

Danny might not be aware of all the other straws, hence why he might see it as her running at the first sign of trouble. But if he isn't, I really don't think he has much of a leg to stand on when he fears she might leave him; given how he flat-out ignores her when she's around and supporting him.

I don't think he really trusts her to stay around and support him, though, since when it really counts (Ruben's death) she wasn't really there for him.

 

[Top41]

Lindsay would shut him out of Lucy's life? I've never seen one thing that would indicate that - not even her "I know you" line. It's a harsh misjudgment of Lindsay because she has had his back enough times when he's been in trouble, even at the expense of her job (twice), even if he's ignored her when she does it, for him to just jump to the conclusion that she won't care about him at all if she's not his girlfriend/wife. Lindsay and Danny, imo, have always been at their best as friends. The love-romance aspect of their relationship is messed up as anything I've ever seen before - but it's always been clear that if nothing else, they care about each other as friends...so it's just annoying that Danny doesn't seem to trust at least that. Especially considering that he used to find it easier to trust that she'd care when she was just his friend (S2, S3). But he doesn't seem to trust that she'd come back to him as a friend if he gave her time to - and so never gives/gave her space to step back and get over him. That's unfair.

She seemed prepared to have Lucy and raise the baby on her own, hence the "I'm not expecting anything" bit. To him, that clearly communicated she didn't want or need him around, something that came out when he confronted her about the "wrong guy" bit when asking her about turning down his proposal. I think his insecurities were very apparent in that moment. And based on what she'd said in the episode before AND the way she walked away from him after his proposal, I don't think it was a harsh misjudgment of her. A misunderstanding perhaps, but not one that was completely unfounded.

I don't know how teasing his tone was, but she smiled the same way she smiled in RND when Danny refused to answer during that brief pause in her speech. The hurt smile, and she kind of hung her head as she did it. I guess he did brush Hawkes off, but it certainly wasn't in a brusque way.

Was he really that brusque with her? I remember a teasing tone, but not cruelty or anything. And again the double standard (not from you, but the show) that it's okay for her to want to just do their jobs, but when it's him wanting that it's harsh or cruel.

Flack did force his way into the situation, but Danny spilled to him pretty quickly. It just makes me think that if he'd seen Flack's number on his phone, he would've answered, because he seemed to want to tell someone he trusted what was going on. Would Flack have needed to call Danny before breaking into his place? He did knock on the door first. And he might've just assumed that since Lindsay said he wasn't answering his phone, Danny wouldn't answer it to his number, either.

I think Danny spilled quickly because he saw right away that Flack wasn't having any of his excuses or brush offs. Flack literally went Alpha Dog on him, to the point of being physically imposing--getting right up beside Danny and blocking him from leaving on his bike. Danny knew "no, go away" wasn't an option. That's how Danny is--he gets very, very passive and compliant in the face of aggression from someone he cares about. He's been that way with Mac, and he even was that way with Lindsay when she laid into him in RND.

Yeah, but she only started taking him up on that interest late S3, long after at least Flack (and possibly Louie's) injuries had healed.

And at that point, after being yo-yoed around for a whole season, who knew what he wanted? I doubt Danny did. He followed her cues.

He defaulted to romance when (to him) it seemed like pushing for friendship to keep her in his life wasn't going to work. I completely disagree that Lindsay didn't want to talk. It actually seemed like in that phone call (which, yeah, wasn't romantic, but it ended up being Danny who pushed for romance/sex), Lindsay was the one trying to work out what she'd done wrong ("I tried to give you your space"). But Danny didn't seem to get that. He just blindly agreed to everything she was saying, rather than actually answering her on what she'd done wrong, telling her that it wasn't space that he'd needed - and then when she got frustrated and let the second love confession slip, he used it to invite her over.

She made him work so hard to even get her to say that much to him that he wasn't going to compound it by saying he wished she'd done this or that. She was talking to him, and he knew how to seal the deal and went for that.

It really seemed like he was looking for the quick sex fix, the one that would keep her in his life guaranteed, rather than the longer fix that would take extended effort (working on their relationship, working out what had gone wrong). That's where I see the odd clinginess, because he's like a burr - and I think it's easy for Lindsay or anyone else to misinterpret that clinginess as just wanting to be with her. Especially when he just caved to everything she was saying, without ever really giving her a straight answer on what had gone wrong.

Sure, but say he'd said, "Yeah, you pretty much abandoned me when I needed you most" and she got pissed at him all over again? To be fair, she doesn't take criticism well at all, and made him wait three episodes before she'd even talk to him outside of work. I don't blame him, after all of that, for not really seeing her as someone he could actually have a dialogue with. (Why he would even want someone like that in his life is beyond me, but that's Danny--he clings to people when they treat him badly.) He went for what he knew would hook her, because at that point he had no expectation that she really wanted to talk.

Oh, I definitely agree with this. What I find irritating is that for the most part, all this was revealed to other people, but with Lindsay he very specifically put on the front that he was in love with her. (I don't remember an "I do love you" - I just remember three flat-out, false "I love yous") Which makes me cringe, because I really think she seemed to know anyway that he didn't love her that much, both in The Box, and in all those episodes before Green Piece, but she was mostly fine with it. He didn't need the front.

I don't think she was fine with it. He told those parents in "The Box" that it "hadn't been the same" since they got back together in PF. He knew what she wanted to hear and that at the end of the day, that was what she wanted from him. I don't think that "I love you" was as easy for him to give up as the sex was, but as soon as the baby was in the picture, he knew what he had to do to keep her. It sounds cold, but I think it's kind of a basic survival instinct Danny had to develop early on. I bet he told the parent/person who abused him that he loved him/her, too.

I can't see her missing them, if they really are hints that he doesn't like her. And, well, why assume that Danny has told Lindsay stories of Flack, but hasn't told Flack stories of Lindsay? There's every and no reason to assume for both, I think.

Oh, I'm sure Danny's told Flack stories about Lindsay--about the way she stood him up, the way she got him to take the mother in the one case, the way she left for Montana without saying goodbye. Even if Danny told those stories with rose-colored glasses on, that's not the way Flack would have heard them. If anything, Danny telling Flack stories about Lindsay would contribute to Flack's dislike of her, not the reverse.

She was definitely rudest to Flack in that episode. Snapping at him to arrest James Vackner before storming off? I get that part of it was just her zeal for the case, but even for her that seemed a little on the rude/mean side. She picked up on what she perceived as hostility in Cool Hunter, and it showed - in keeping with what she always does. She's ridiculously touchy. That's why I think if she was still picking up on even a hint of hostility from Flack, it would still show.

I think she was just rude to everyone in that episode because the case hit home for her. "Cool Hunter" was well before "Stealing Home"--I don't think she'd be holding on to a grudge that long. I think she's human and misses the irritation from him sometimes because she assumes he likes her, in the same way she glosses over it with Mac and her experiments.

I don't see it as delighting in her unhappiness - for example, I'm sure she was annoyed by the guys' predictable response to the cheerleader thing, but it's more than a stretch to say she was unhappy about it. I do think he likes annoying her, but it doesn't seem like it's in an unfriendly way. (I come back to the fact that it was him she was sort-of-glaring at through that window in PF - it really just seemed like more of their bantering thing.)

Delighting in her annoyance then. Either way, he seems to enjoy her getting a little comeuppance.

He didn't need to call her "Linds" in front of Danny, no matter how goofy-happy he was or how good an impression he wanted to create on Danny.

It's not so much about making a good impression on Danny as it is about the genuine joy that just radiates off him when Danny is around.

And he was friendly enough in "What Schemes May Come" - I know you saw hostility in his greenhouse remark, but that still came after her long-winded explanation - and he was definitely the first to start laughing when she came in already talking.

Laughing at her isn't necessarily a good thing. And the irritating after the long-winded comment was apparent to me, yeah.

Okay, but Flack never said that to Danny when he was yelling - he never said "I'm worried about what'll happen to you", or even "you're making a huge mistake" -- he never even said anything along those lines until Danny had dropped Rikki off at the station (and the closest he came was "I'm your friend, that makes it my business). Of course, Flack's a stoic guy, it's not easy for him to actually say things like that - any easier than it is for Danny, I think. But that's why I thought it seemed harsh - it would've been nice if they hadn't made it seem more like he was yelling out of concern, rather than yelling just to yell.

For me, in the context of Danny and Flack's relationship, and in light of everything Flack had just done for Danny in that very episode, it was pretty obvious to me that Flack was pissed because Danny was going to do something reckless and ill-advised--the same way he was kind of tough on Danny throughout the whole episode. What Flack did for Danny in that episode was an act of love, really--anyone else would have thrown their hands up long ago and said, "Screw you buddy--you're on your own." Flack didn't. If you look at his expression when Danny got between Rikki and Ollie, you could tell that was what he'd been fearing all along--that was what he'd feared, that Danny would be in danger. He absolutely would have shot Rikki if he thought she really was going to fire at Danny. So looking at it with that in mind, absolutely, that didn't seem harsh at all to me. Forceful, yes, but not harsh.

Thank's but i'm ok just reading it's like a daily thing i grab my coffee Vanilla today and sit and read lol.

I'm a D/L fan sorry (shame on me! god strike me down and all that) lol but i like how you both twist and turn each eppie and person into something i've not thought of like.....

No shame on you at all! Seriously, different strokes for different folks. I respect that many like them, and there are tons of intelligent DL fans out there with great points about them (the ones who use l33t speak and the crazies give the fandom a bad name, and that's not fair at all). I might not like them, but I absolutely respect those who do!

and my fav is flack and lindsay he like's her and in some weired way both have the same humour and i don't think it's just cause she's his best mates girl.

:lol: I know, right - Flack and Lindsay have this kind of fun, snarky, getting-one-up-on-each-other bantering thing that really makes me crack up during most of their interactions. [Although I do think I would pay to see Flack finally get one up on Lindsay - it always seems to be her who "wins", though Flack tries.] I do think Danny is a big part of what they have in common, but what gets me is that they have this dynamic that seems entirely separate from him. Additionally, I really think Flack is really what Lindsay desperately wants to be - stoic, always in control of his emotions, but able to care deeply and show it easily (for the most part).

Of course, ideally I'd prefer to see CSI get over this new fad of hooking up coworkers...my absolute preference would be to see Lindsay get together with someone outside of the lab, show that she has a life outside of work. But honestly, I just like Flack/Lindsay so much better than D/L - not to mention, I think it'd be that much healthier.

I admit, Flack/Lindsay is the one ship that gives me the chills, lol! In large part because of Lindsay's behavior--Flack would never, ever put up with that. Danny only does so because he's so damaged. On a shallow note, Flack's way too hot for that pairing to be believed! :lol: Danny's already a stretch, but Flack is just so far out of Lindsay's league.

But what I do agree with is that Lindsay would probably like to be more like Flack. And I think they are more alike than either of them is like Danny, which is why Danny is so fascinating to both of them. Neither wants to be ruled by their emotions the way Danny is completely. So I think they both, in their own ways, feel very protective of that vulnerability in Danny.

 

[Maya316]

I just think she has a sense of entitlement--these are her issues and everyone else should make allowances for them. You're right that we can't speculate about what's happened in the past in her life with being let off the hook, but what we see on screen tells me that she expects people to cut her some slack. Her attitude totally conveys that.

Her attitude when she's being confronted tells me she doesn't just expect them to let her off the hook. If she did, she wouldn't be so hostile/defensive/excuse-giving when they do confront her. It's more like they just do. One of these days (please please please *crosses fingers*) someone isn't going to let her off the hook, but I can very well imagine that Lindsay would get just as hostile/defensive/excuse-giving in that scenario.

I've never noticed a real fear of guns from her. She handles them with aplomb on the job ("Bad Beat," "Child's Play" (I think? the ep where she processed a shotgun)) and the only time we saw her freak out was when she had a gun pointed straight at her in "Not What It Looks Like" and to be fair, that would freak most people out. Danny was shaking when he went into the bar where Shane Casey was--when they're in tense situations, they freak out. And even then, Lindsay was able to do what was needed in "Not What It Looks Like." I don't really see a fear of guns from her. I think the reason we don't see her in a bulletproof vest much of the time is because she's kind of been relegated more to the lab, a la Adam.

Okay, maybe not a fear of guns, per se, because she's able to handle them when working in the lab. But she does seem to pointedly avoid situations where she might get shot or have a gun pointed at her. The one time she did ("Not What it Looks Like") was when that issue was in direct clash with another of her issues - the possibility of a teenage girl getting killed/shot. She wanted to stop that; the teenage girl took precedence. I know, yeah, most people aren't thrilled with having guns pointed at them, but the other guys on the team take this risk anyway. Hawkes has also been relegated to the lab, but we've seen him join in to strap on a bulletproof vest, too.

I don't remember her freezing--making that pensive scrunch-face she uses to express any and all emotion, but not freezing.

I remember her freezing, because she specifically paused for a while before going on with the witness statements. I know other people saw her freeze, too.

I just don't see those issues, at least not the one with the gun--both Lindsay and Hawkes are in action far less frequently than Mac, Stella, Danny and Flack.

Hawkes is less in action with guns than the others, but we've seen him in those situations enough times (Snow Day, Pay Up, Taxi, when they were swarming the warehouse that Reed was being held in).

Yeah, but the safety issue was urgent--clueing in co-workers could wait.

The safety issue didn't seem that urgent - I mean, she was already at least a couple months pregnant by that point, wasn't she? And Stella basically told her to keep doing whatever it was she'd been doing, since fume-hoods and stuff were all available at the lab. If it was about not wanting Stella to know she was pregnant before she and Danny had told everyone together, she could've waited on the safety issue.

See, I don't think he did dump her though. Saying "I'm sorry, we need to talk" isn't dumping someone. Even if that was what he intended to do--which I'm not sure he did--the prelude still isn't an actual dump. I think her saying "I'm in love with you and I need to find a way to get over that" was totally her dumping him. Maybe in a self-preservation way, but it said very clearly that they were done.

"Sorry... we need to talk" has always been the trademark opening break-up line, hasn't it? :lol: Especially if that's the first thing the guy is saying after you've told him you love him. But Danny had already dumped her in his mind long before then - at least by the time he slept with Rikki. I think he was the one who made it clear that they were over, and Lindsay finally got the message in the office. It certainly didn't seem like she considered them as over when she called him for lunch that morning. That's really why I thought Danny was just making it official in that final scene.

Oh, totally agree! He should have let it go. But I think he felt guilty that here she was in love with him, and he tried to react to that the way he thought she'd want, maybe? I think he was pretty confused about how he was supposed to act, really.

I'm not sure how much guilt played into it, though. I think he felt guilty that he'd hurt her, but not that she loved him - he just seemed kind of "oh, well" resigned when she walked out in LWFM. He certainly didn't seem like he was trying to feel the same way. I guess he was confused about how he was supposed to act, but he did seem to think about the "we should rent it" request before he said it. Maybe he was just trying to test the waters...

But again... did he really tell her he didn't feel the same way, or did he just not know what to say in that moment? He never said, "I'm sorry, I don't feel the same way you do." He didn't reply at the moment because he was grieving and then shocked on top of it, but he did try to talk to her afterwards. It's hard to know what he was going to say because we didn't really get a chance to hear him say it... unless we think the PF call was pretty much what he intended to say all along?

I don't know, I really hope he was telling her he didn't feel the same way in that final RND scene - because he doesn't, and I've always thought that was the most honest he's ever been to Lindsay about it. (Plus, it was the only real time he got his say in RND, and first time I saw it it just seemed to make so much sense in light of his reactions to Lindsay in S4. At least until LWFM came out.) But urgh, yeah it is frustrating that we never really got that real clarification of whether that was what he intended to say all along. I don't think the PF call was what he wanted to say all along - he was all "I swear to God it won't happen again", even though it totally has - that call really just seemed like he was trying to pacify her.

No, but it also kind of contradicts what she said to him. If she really loved him, wouldn't she want to hear his side of the story, hear what he had to say? The fact that she didn't kind of underscores her selfishness IMO.

I think she thought she had heard his side of the story (the break-up-ish "I'm sorry"). If it really seemed that Danny had more to say about what she'd actually told him or what happened between them, I think she would've listened. But he never really specified that. It was all "let's rent Jaws" - which had nothing to do with them being together or not together. He seemed to want to hang out as friends, and she didn't have to do that considering they'd just broken up. The one time he did half-indicate that he wanted to talk about them, she really just told him that now wasn't the time. (And she answered the phone, next time it came up)

Yeah, but season three was different--that was about her, not them. There were two of them in whatever they had in season four, and she basically denied him the chance to say his piece until he'd groveled enough.

But (and keeping in mind, it really does seem like he broke up with her to begin with) they weren't together at that time in season 4. And a huge part of that - at least, the relationship being called off - was down to him. So he really should have left it up to her to clear the air between them, not taken it upon himself to do so, and pressing her in the process. If he really did have something to say to her regarding what happened between them, he should've indicated that - told her "I need to say something to you", rather than "we should talk". The only time I think Lindsay did him a minor disservice was in PF when she implied in the morgue scene that she wouldn't ever want to talk, right before walking away. That, I think, she could've handled slightly better, because he did half-imply he wanted to talk about their fight (although, obviously, she didn't follow up on it because she answered the very next time he tried to talk to her).

But maybe he would have given her that space, if she'd given him the chance to voice his side?

But if his side was anything other than "I want you to stay in my life", there's no reason he wouldn't be able to give her her space before, rather than after he said it. Additionally, if he'd had something he really needed to say to her about what happened, I really think he should've just told her, dumped it on her - like she did to him, and like he's done to her before (the whole "want to tell me why you won't marry me" thing). That's what really makes me think he didn't have much of a side to voice; at least, nothing he hadn't already said.

Maybe, maybe not. He had no way of knowing if she would or not. Knowing Danny, he probably thought she hated him.

True, although even in the highly unlikely event that she wouldn't (want to be friends) or did hate him, I think he should've left it up to her to decide, if his concern was at all about her. I know, given how insecure he is that would've just been impossible for him, but still, it wasn't like she was hostile to him. They were bantering again at work. All things considered, that's more than one can usually ask for after a breakup.

Yeah, but the script called for her to be down in those episodes. And I still remember her total "this is supposed to be longing" look at Danny from the cab in "The Lying Game." She's just... unnatural.

LOL :lol: I found the longing look believable .. well, at least as believable as I found Danny's longing look outside of the office earlier in the Lying Game.

Did the script call for her to be down in "Here's to You Mrs. Azrael"? Her past wasn't even mentioned then...although yeah, there was a dead teenage girl in the hospital bed, so that might've purposely triggered the sadness. She seemed down in that episode where she got bitten by the snake, too - and I mean, before she got bitten by the snake.

Of course not, but I think she owed it to him to hear his side of things.

True, she definitely owed him that. Though to be fair, I think she would've listened had he ever told her his side of things (if they were beyond his "I'm sorry" in RND).

I think the fact that she was carrying his child made that statement about her being everything he's always wanted true in his mind at least. Deluding himself, yes, but not outright insincerity.

Oh, but that is some serious delusion. *groan*

Yeah, I remember that feeling off, and a little desperate. I think they were more to convince her than him though--she was having his baby, this baby he wanted so desperately, so I think in that moment he absolutely did love her.

Yeah, but it wasn't like it was even her on the phone - the call went straight to voicemail, he was leaving a message. Those two I love yous sounded at best like he was trying to convince himself...but honestly, I think they were at least slightly because he knew she'd hear the message later and was trying to remind her of why she shouldn't leave him. Keeping with the illusion again.

Oh, I'm sure he's hard to love, but it seems kind of hurtful to tell someone so obviously insecure that.

Point Yeah, that's true, although I've never really seen it as that harsh. I've always kinda thought the whole "love" part of it would've cancelled out any harshness...it's something that's actually very hard to say out loud or admit to even in general. Never mind when you're someone like Lindsay, let alone at least half-sure (if not entirely positive) that the other person doesn't feel the same way. She said it with shields up.

I don't think Danny did take it as hurtful, because he absolutely and completely believes it. Danny thinks he's hard to love because he's been made to feel that way by so many people (Mac, Lindsay, Louie, etc.). I totally get that Danny is difficult, but look at the way Flack treats him--completely patient, even almost adoring sometimes. Danny is at least as difficult for Flack as he is for other people in his life, but Flack wouldn't tell him in a million years that he's "hard to love" (or hard to be friends with or whatever the guy version is of that :lol: ).

I don't know if it's so much that he just believes it rather than that he knows it.

I agree that Flack is very patient with Danny, but I'm not sure Flack has ever really had to deal with the things that make those other people (well, Mac and Lindsay, I'm not sure about Louie) find Danny hard to love. The constant mistrust, the refusal to let them in, not even the mixed signals from the clinginess (though I know CSI_Cupcake mentioned the whole pattern with D/L and then Flack's girlfriends). We always see Danny let Flack in to help him. The one time I think Flack had to deal with Danny's mistrust - the diner - we never really saw follow-up on it. The only other time we saw Flack dealing with Danny being difficult, he seemed to get really really impatient (AitF - although even then he got an easy way out, because Danny did what Flack wanted him to in the end). Danny seems to accept that Flack cares for him, and he appreciates it - Flack's not pouring his caring onto a brick wall and getting nothing back.

Fair enough, especially about RSRD. I've always given her a lot of credit for that. In "Snow Day," he took her shift, so for her not to be there would have been pretty cold. And "The Deep" was one of those instances where Danny was getting overwhelmed with praise he didn't think he deserved, but I do agree she was trying to be nice there.

True about "Snow Day", though I don't think that's why she was there.

But those were signs that Danny was in trouble, and rather than reaching out to him to say she cared and wanted to support him, she kind of let it go. I get that she did something nice behind-the-scenes, but he needed her to actually be there for him and she wasn't. I think that communicated to Danny that she didn't care about him, even if that wasn't what she meant to communicate. And so when he totally pulled away and she got mad at him, rather than trying to communicate and work it out, she cut and run.

Those were signs that Danny was in trouble, and she didn't run at them - she pushed to the best of her ability, but I really have to look at the way she kind of kept being rebuffed until they all piled up. She went to the morgue - he ran (in her perception, anyway); she started repeatedly calling in AitF - no answer; she took his shift - he didn't notice; he indirectly told Adam (and Mac) how tormented he was over Ruben's death - but didn't even give her an explanation for why she had to take his shift; she called him for lunch, he didn't want to go. And even during that small pause she gave him during her speech to answer, he seemed to pointedly not want to talk. Add to this the way he'd kind of been rebuffing her personal overtures all season, and everything about that scenario says "last straw" to me, rather than Lindsay cutting-and-running. He'd been pulling away long before Child's Play.

I don't think he really trusts her to stay around and support him, though, since when it really counts (Ruben's death) she wasn't really there for him.

She was there for him, he just didn't look long enough to notice. Ideally, she'd be the sort of person who could do for him what he did for her in S3, yeah. But she's not, and to be fair, Danny had known that about her for at least 3 years by that point. I do get that he's not the one who should be making compromises when he's grieving, but the thing is that he knew her. I really think it' only makes sense that he'd be on the lookout for anything that came from her. I mean, picking up the phone when she called, or asking who'd covered his shift, or even abstractly venting to Lindsay the way he did to Mac and Adam - would that really have even been a compromise, let alone a massive effort?

Aaannnd....part 2 coming right up!