Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[Maya316]

She seemed prepared to have Lucy and raise the baby on her own, hence the "I'm not expecting anything" bit. To him, that clearly communicated she didn't want or need him around, something that came out when he confronted her about the "wrong guy" bit when asking her about turning down his proposal. I think his insecurities were very apparent in that moment. And based on what she'd said in the episode before AND the way she walked away from him after his proposal, I don't think it was a harsh misjudgment of her. A misunderstanding perhaps, but not one that was completely unfounded.

She seemed prepared to have Lucy on her own and raise her if Danny didn't want to be involved - that's not the same thing as shutting him out when he'd specifically claimed an interest. The "I'm not expecting anything from you" bit I really viewed as Lindsay talking about her expectations, not the baby's. What she might/might not expect from Danny (going through ultra-sounds, doctor's appointments, making up a nursery, etc etc, pregnancy stuff), and what Lucy had a right to expect from Danny (Danny being a father, basically) are two entirely separate things. Even Danny seemed to know this on some level - if he hadn't, I think he would've spent far more time on her "wrong time" answer (maybe worrying that it meant she really was going to run), rather than quickly bypassing it in favour of finding out what was wrong with him as a guy.

Was he really that brusque with her? I remember a teasing tone, but not cruelty or anything. And again the double standard (not from you, but the show) that it's okay for her to want to just do their jobs, but when it's him wanting that it's harsh or cruel.

Well, I just thought it was harsher than the Hawkes brush-off - he sounded lighter with Hawkes, I'll just say. And yeah, I guess I can see that double standard, but being fair, the times when Lindsay just wants them to do their jobs are times when they're not together but Danny still wants them to cut out of work for lunch. In "The Deep", she and Danny were presumably together, he'd (presumably) given her the impression that he'd be interested in said relationship, and therefore wouldn't find it a big deal to listen to her personal feelings about him - when expressed in a roundabout, work-appropriate way.

I think Danny spilled quickly because he saw right away that Flack wasn't having any of his excuses or brush offs. Flack literally went Alpha Dog on him, to the point of being physically imposing--getting right up beside Danny and blocking him from leaving on his bike. Danny knew "no, go away" wasn't an option. That's how Danny is--he gets very, very passive and compliant in the face of aggression from someone he cares about. He's been that way with Mac, and he even was that way with Lindsay when she laid into him in RND.

Yeah, but Danny never once tried to brush Flack off when Flack first showed up in AitF - he did so later, but not that first time. Flack made a sarcastic comment about the batting cages, Danny said they were closed for maintenance - then mentioned he didn't give a crap about Ollie Barnes when Flack said Barnes "wasn't the one screwing up Danny's career" --> he responded to every one of Flack's statements. And when Flack asked why he was there, Danny spilled immediately. It didn't seem like he was ever trying to brush Flack off, or that he wanted to.

And at that point, after being yo-yoed around for a whole season, who knew what he wanted? I doubt Danny did. He followed her cues.

After being yo-yo-ed around all season, there was even less reason for Lindsay to assume Danny would even want to talk to her - yet he was still clinging. I think he followed her cues, but I highly doubt that's how it would've appeared to Lindsay. That's not how it would've appeared to me were I Lindsay. After a year of boomerang-ing him around, I'd be shocked that the guy would even want to look at me, let alone still flirt with me after the mess was over...but if he did, I'd assume that he liked me a lot. I really feel that's an assumption other people would come to, too.

She made him work so hard to even get her to say that much to him that he wasn't going to compound it by saying he wished she'd done this or that. She was talking to him, and he knew how to seal the deal and went for that.

He did know how to seal the deal, and it was clearly all about that - wanting to keep her in his life, any way he could. If it were at all about trying to actually fix things between them, he wouldn't have been as concerned about whether she'd be angry by what he said, so long as she knew his side of things. He's passive when people get angry, but for the most part he usually does try to get his point of view across when it's important to him - even with Mac, in "Crime and Misdemeanour", "On the Job", RSRD.

Sure, but say he'd said, "Yeah, you pretty much abandoned me when I needed you most" and she got pissed at him all over again? To be fair, she doesn't take criticism well at all, and made him wait three episodes before she'd even talk to him outside of work. I don't blame him, after all of that, for not really seeing her as someone he could actually have a dialogue with. (Why he would even want someone like that in his life is beyond me, but that's Danny--he clings to people when they treat him badly.) He went for what he knew would hook her, because at that point he had no expectation that she really wanted to talk.

Well yeah, that's why he wanted the quick fix. No, she doesn't take criticism that well; although we've seen so few people actually criticize her - but the few times she gets it, she usually does come around to their points of view eventually, or quickly enough (Danny in All Access, Stella in Silent Night, Mac in LWFM). I think she might've been a little peeved if he'd told her that she didn't do things right .... but you know, she seemed very aware of that already, and even if she was peeved I think she'd've gotten over it soon enough. Obviously, it would've taken effort, maybe even another cold spell. But if he'd had even the slightest interest in having a dialogue with her, getting his say in, then that wouldn't have been an issue for him.

I don't think she was fine with it. He told those parents in "The Box" that it "hadn't been the same" since they got back together in PF. He knew what she wanted to hear and that at the end of the day, that was what she wanted from him. I don't think that "I love you" was as easy for him to give up as the sex was, but as soon as the baby was in the picture, he knew what he had to do to keep her. It sounds cold, but I think it's kind of a basic survival instinct Danny had to develop early on. I bet he told the parent/person who abused him that he loved him/her, too.

I really don't think she believed him for a second when he said "I love you" in the Triangle, so I don't think it was just a question of what she wanted to hear. She knew he didn't love her. And yeah, it certainly affected their relationship, but when the baby got involved she was friendly enough with him that it seemed she was willing to overlook it. Even before his proposal in the Triangle, or when he said he loved her. She knew he didn't, but really, to her it only seemed to matter that he wanted to be involved with Lucy - that was enough to make her friendship strong again with him. He didn't need the love front.

I agree Danny probably didn't find it as easy to give up "I love you" as he did sex - but he certainly left her with the hope that he might, during that phone call in PF. "Please come over so you can tell me you love me in person" - I mean, it implies more than just an impersonal booty-call. And I think Danny meant it to, if only for the purpose of bringing her over. At the very least, it implied that he was open to her own love for him. I think Lindsay knew perfectly well what would happen if she went over to Danny's place that night (that's why I was so under the impression that she hadn't :brickwall, but I don't think the line would've been able to lure her over if she didn't think it was about more than just sex.

Oh, I'm sure Danny's told Flack stories about Lindsay--about the way she stood him up, the way she got him to take the mother in the one case, the way she left for Montana without saying goodbye. Even if Danny told those stories with rose-colored glasses on, that's not the way Flack would have heard them. If anything, Danny telling Flack stories about Lindsay would contribute to Flack's dislike of her, not the reverse.

In that case, I definitely think we would've seen more pointed coldness from him toward her. Especially the day she came back after committing all these fiascos. (Flack's happy around Danny, yeah, but it's not like Danny's presence makes him lose all sense of who should be treated like a pariah and who he should be nice to - he keeps it together with Danny in front of suspects, and when he was with Sam in "Veritas")

I think she was just rude to everyone in that episode because the case hit home for her. "Cool Hunter" was well before "Stealing Home"--I don't think she'd be holding on to a grudge that long. I think she's human and misses the irritation from him sometimes because she assumes he likes her, in the same way she glosses over it with Mac and her experiments.

She wasn't so much rude to everyone else in Stealing Home. Withdrawn, and irritated when Mac revealed that Danny had gone to him about Lindsay's obsession with the case, but not exactly rude. And not as much as she was with Flack. I don't think she was holding a grudge, per se, but I do think that in Cool Hunter, she might've classed him as someone who didn't like her because of the tiny interrogation-thing. And so the next time she saw him, she just remembered that and responded in kind, the way she does with people she thinks don't like her. She glosses over Mac's irritation because she knows Mac likes her. The way she maybe does with Flack now, because I think she's fairly assured that he likes her (and from what I've seen, the only way she'd be assured of this is if he did). She didn't seem to think he liked her in Stealing Home, and it showed.

Delighting in her annoyance then. Either way, he seems to enjoy her getting a little comeuppance.

Oh yeah, I totally agree Flack has fun annoying her, or watching her be annoyed. :lol: But that's why I think it's in fun.

Laughing at her isn't necessarily a good thing. And the irritating after the long-winded comment was apparent to me, yeah.

It seems to be when Stella and Hawkes are doing it too. And well, he called her "Linds" during that greenhouse comment, too. (I think, I'll have to check that)

For me, in the context of Danny and Flack's relationship, and in light of everything Flack had just done for Danny in that very episode, it was pretty obvious to me that Flack was pissed because Danny was going to do something reckless and ill-advised--the same way he was kind of tough on Danny throughout the whole episode. What Flack did for Danny in that episode was an act of love, really--anyone else would have thrown their hands up long ago and said, "Screw you buddy--you're on your own." Flack didn't. If you look at his expression when Danny got between Rikki and Ollie, you could tell that was what he'd been fearing all along--that was what he'd feared, that Danny would be in danger. He absolutely would have shot Rikki if he thought she really was going to fire at Danny. So looking at it with that in mind, absolutely, that didn't seem harsh at all to me. Forceful, yes, but not harsh.

I totally think Flack acted out of love during that whole episode, even during the yelling moment (although I don't agree that anyone else would've just ditched their best friend in the same scenario). But I do have to say it didn't easily come across that way; I think this was in part because of Flack's character...he's pretty reserved, so it's hard for him to convey emotions like fear or concern in the most obvious ways. The fear and the concern mixed in with the (very potent, I'm sure) irritation with the whole scenario - and so it came out harshly when he started to yell. And I get that he had to just let it out, but I don't think that one-hour ultimatum was what Danny needed to hear right then, not in that tone.

I admit, Flack/Lindsay is the one ship that gives me the chills, lol! In large part because of Lindsay's behavior--Flack would never, ever put up with that. Danny only does so because he's so damaged. On a shallow note, Flack's way too hot for that pairing to be believed! :lol: Danny's already a stretch, but Flack is just so far out of Lindsay's league.

But what I do agree with is that Lindsay would probably like to be more like Flack. And I think they are more alike than either of them is like Danny, which is why Danny is so fascinating to both of them. Neither wants to be ruled by their emotions the way Danny is completely. So I think they both, in their own ways, feel very protective of that vulnerability in Danny.

Really, even more than D/L? :lol: I totally don't think Flack would put up with Lindsay's behaviour for a second, but that right there is exactly why I prefer the pairing so much. Lindsay badly, badly needs a stable guy (or stable anyone, really) who just won't put up with her BS - who, in fact, will give her his own BS that she'll have to put up with in a workable way.

Additionally, it's because I totally don't buy into the whole "opposites-attract" thing (because look how well that worked out for D/L ), and Lindsay and Flack may well be the two most similar characters on the show. Mac is stoic, but that in part seems to be because all his emotions are generally subdued (as opposed to Flack, who feels deeply but controls it, and Lindsay, who also seems to feel deeply, but shows it erratically). Hawkes comes across as stoic, but that has mostly to do with his lack of storylines - when we saw him in that girlfriend storyline in S5, he seemed as liable to freak out as Danny has ever been.

*shrug* I think Lindsay is more than pretty enough for Flack, as are all the other women on the show (because, um, CSI: NY is basically a runway for Hollywood-glamorous cops. It's not even this bad on CSI: Miami)...but then, I've always seen Danny as the hotter of the two rather than Flack, and they can't seem to pry D/L apart, so maybe that's just me.

 

[Top41]

Her attitude when she's being confronted tells me she doesn't just expect them to let her off the hook. If she did, she wouldn't be so hostile/defensive/excuse-giving when they do confront her. It's more like they just do. One of these days (please please please *crosses fingers*) someone isn't going to let her off the hook, but I can very well imagine that Lindsay would get just as hostile/defensive/excuse-giving in that scenario.

But that hostility and defensiveness is the weapon she uses to get them to let her off the hook--she hits with that and immediately the other person is taken aback and on the defensive themselves.

Okay, maybe not a fear of guns, per se, because she's able to handle them when working in the lab. But she does seem to pointedly avoid situations where she might get shot or have a gun pointed at her. The one time she did ("Not What it Looks Like") was when that issue was in direct clash with another of her issues - the possibility of a teenage girl getting killed/shot. She wanted to stop that; the teenage girl took precedence. I know, yeah, most people aren't thrilled with having guns pointed at them, but the other guys on the team take this risk anyway. Hawkes has also been relegated to the lab, but we've seen him join in to strap on a bulletproof vest, too.

Yeah, but we've seen her do it, too. I think Mac just doesn't call on her for those situations, because other characters are tougher/more action-oriented than she is. The same is true of Adam... which is why I think over the last few seasons, Lindsay has kind of evolved into a glorified lab tech.

I remember her freezing, because she specifically paused for a while before going on with the witness statements. I know other people saw her freeze, too.

I don't remember that--I'll have to go back and look. I'd suspect it was from the shock of Angell dying more than any direct flashbacks to her past, though. Everyone was reacting to it, though bafflingly, we got a lot more reactions from her than some other characters. I remember a lot of that pensive scrunch face she uses to convey emotion... eeek.

The safety issue didn't seem that urgent - I mean, she was already at least a couple months pregnant by that point, wasn't she? And Stella basically told her to keep doing whatever it was she'd been doing, since fume-hoods and stuff were all available at the lab. If it was about not wanting Stella to know she was pregnant before she and Danny had told everyone together, she could've waited on the safety issue.

I'll be honest, I always thought that scene made her look incredibly stupid. That should have been at the forefront of her mind long before that moment--from the minute she found out she was pregnant, really. So I have to disagree on the urgency--and she had no way of knowing before she asked that Stella would tell her it was fine, so that doesn't really factor into Lindsay's own actions.

"Sorry... we need to talk" has always been the trademark opening break-up line, hasn't it? :lol: Especially if that's the first thing the guy is saying after you've told him you love him.

It definitely, definitely can be, but it could also have been an, "I'm sorry I hurt you--can we talk about this." It could have gone either way, I totally agree, but if she doesn't hear what he's going to say then how is she to know?

But Danny had already dumped her in his mind long before then - at least by the time he slept with Rikki.

Yeah, that I definitely agree with. Though I do think that he really separated the two women, and what he was doing with them. I think he really in his mind thought he was just using his body to comfort Rikki--that that was what she wanted from him, and after all he felt he had cost her, he sure owed her that. Definitely a pretty messed up perspective, that's for sure. But I do think Danny has some pretty messed up views of relationships and sex.

I think he was the one who made it clear that they were over, and Lindsay finally got the message in the office. It certainly didn't seem like she considered them as over when she called him for lunch that morning. That's really why I thought Danny was just making it official in that final scene.

Yeah, I can see that--I actually went back and rewatched part of the episode (before getting interrupted by a phone call!) and I think you're right that he does seem to consider them over. It's weird because he's still trying to be friendly, but he definitely seems to have walls up--he's totally holding her at arm's length. But I kind of think he was mad/hurt that she didn't really reach out to him after Ruben's death--it was almost a childish thing. Like, "Fine, you don't want to be there for me? I'll shut you out totally."

I'm not sure how much guilt played into it, though. I think he felt guilty that he'd hurt her, but not that she loved him - he just seemed kind of "oh, well" resigned when she walked out in LWFM. He certainly didn't seem like he was trying to feel the same way. I guess he was confused about how he was supposed to act, but he did seem to think about the "we should rent it" request before he said it. Maybe he was just trying to test the waters...

I admit, I get stuck on the rental thing a bit. Do you think it was just a request as a friend, or do you think he was thinking he'd get her to watch the movie, he'd put out and then all would be well again and she wouldn't be mad at him anymore.

I don't know, I really hope he was telling her he didn't feel the same way in that final RND scene - because he doesn't, and I've always thought that was the most honest he's ever been to Lindsay about it. (Plus, it was the only real time he got his say in RND, and first time I saw it it just seemed to make so much sense in light of his reactions to Lindsay in S4. At least until LWFM came out.) But urgh, yeah it is frustrating that we never really got that real clarification of whether that was what he intended to say all along. I don't think the PF call was what he wanted to say all along - he was all "I swear to God it won't happen again", even though it totally has - that call really just seemed like he was trying to pacify her.

Agreed, though I wonder if he would have tried to pacify her in RND or if he would have actually ended it or said he couldn't be with her or even opened up to her about grieving and why he hadn't come to her. He seemed totally beaten down when she chewed him out in RND--just completely vulnerable and downtrodden--I just think at that point, he couldn't take any more. The guilt was obviously eating him up about Ruben, and now he had Lindsay piling on.

I think she thought she had heard his side of the story (the break-up-ish "I'm sorry"). If it really seemed that Danny had more to say about what she'd actually told him or what happened between them, I think she would've listened. But he never really specified that.

"We should talk" implied he had something more to say. Even if he was going to flat out dump her... she'd said her piece, shouldn't he be allowed to say his? Maybe he would have actually said why.

It was all "let's rent Jaws" - which had nothing to do with them being together or not together.

That was in the next episode, after he had gotten the message that she didn't want to hear what he had to say. But maybe he figured they'd talk then, that offering something casual was a better way to approach her?

If he really did have something to say to her regarding what happened between them, he should've indicated that - told her "I need to say something to you", rather than "we should talk".

It was badly worded perhaps, but at the same time it seemed clear he had something to say to her.

But if his side was anything other than "I want you to stay in my life", there's no reason he wouldn't be able to give her her space before, rather than after he said it. Additionally, if he'd had something he really needed to say to her about what happened, I really think he should've just told her, dumped it on her - like she did to him, and like he's done to her before (the whole "want to tell me why you won't marry me" thing). That's what really makes me think he didn't have much of a side to voice; at least, nothing he hadn't already said.

Maybe, though he's always kind of had to chase her down to have his say, from the hallway scene in Love Run Cold to the marriage thing in The Triangle. Maybe he was looking for a time and not finding it. He could have blurted it but for whatever reason maybe he didn't want to. Maybe he was going to confide in her about Ruben and didn't want to do it in the middle of the lab. It's hard to know, since he never got to say his piece.

Did the script call for her to be down in "Here's to You Mrs. Azrael"? Her past wasn't even mentioned then...although yeah, there was a dead teenage girl in the hospital bed, so that might've purposely triggered the sadness. She seemed down in that episode where she got bitten by the snake, too - and I mean, before she got bitten by the snake.

I don't remember her being particularly down in either, but then, it's been ages since I've seen those episodes.

True, she definitely owed him that. Though to be fair, I think she would've listened had he ever told her his side of things (if they were beyond his "I'm sorry" in RND).

I don't think she would have, though. He wanted to talk; she didn't want to hear it. Even if it was prefaced with an "I'm sorry," that's hardly the most offensive thing he could say to her. If he'd said "You're full of it" and then she hadn't wanted to hear his side, I would have totally understood. But he did seem contrite or at least sincere about wanting to talk.

Yeah, but it wasn't like it was even her on the phone - the call went straight to voicemail, he was leaving a message. Those two I love yous sounded at best like he was trying to convince himself...but honestly, I think they were at least slightly because he knew she'd hear the message later and was trying to remind her of why she shouldn't leave him. Keeping with the illusion again.

Totally--he's such a scared little boy sometimes. He's so desperately needy.

Point Yeah, that's true, although I've never really seen it as that harsh. I've always kinda thought the whole "love" part of it would've cancelled out any harshness...it's something that's actually very hard to say out loud or admit to even in general. Never mind when you're someone like Lindsay, let alone at least half-sure (if not entirely positive) that the other person doesn't feel the same way. She said it with shields up.

LOL, thanks. But at the same time, I kind of thought her shields were down... that she was desperately hoping he'd tell her he loved her back, or at least something close. That's probably why she went over there. And then Danny used sex as a fix and she half-bought it, because she wanted him so much. At the same time, that kind of reinforced what Danny believed--that sex was what she wanted from him, that that was what he needed to do to feed the love she had for him. If she thinks he's hard to love, she could leave him at any time, in his mind.

I agree that Flack is very patient with Danny, but I'm not sure Flack has ever really had to deal with the things that make those other people (well, Mac and Lindsay, I'm not sure about Louie) find Danny hard to love. The constant mistrust, the refusal to let them in, not even the mixed signals from the clinginess (though I know CSI_Cupcake mentioned the whole pattern with D/L and then Flack's girlfriends). We always see Danny let Flack in to help him. The one time I think Flack had to deal with Danny's mistrust - the diner - we never really saw follow-up on it. The only other time we saw Flack dealing with Danny being difficult, he seemed to get really really impatient (AitF - although even then he got an easy way out, because Danny did what Flack wanted him to in the end). Danny seems to accept that Flack cares for him, and he appreciates it - Flack's not pouring his caring onto a brick wall and getting nothing back.

True, but Flack has definitely seen that difficult side of Danny, the side of him that believes no one really cares. In On the Job, in All in the Family... Danny might be more willing to give into Flack--Danny can be such a bossy little princess with Flack, but when it comes down to it, Flack will assert himself over Danny and Danny kind of passively accepts it, like in RSRD or AitF. Flack has partially gotten through Danny's shields, much more so than anyone else, but Danny still pushes Flack to see how deeply Flack cares for him. That little outburst at the end of AitF proved that Danny still needs reassurances from Flack, too. Yeah, Danny can be very hard to love... but Flack is one persistent SOB.

Those were signs that Danny was in trouble, and she didn't run at them - she pushed to the best of her ability, but I really have to look at the way she kind of kept being rebuffed until they all piled up. She went to the morgue - he ran (in her perception, anyway); she started repeatedly calling in AitF - no answer; she took his shift - he didn't notice; he indirectly told Adam (and Mac) how tormented he was over Ruben's death - but didn't even give her an explanation for why she had to take his shift; she called him for lunch, he didn't want to go. And even during that small pause she gave him during her speech to answer, he seemed to pointedly not want to talk. Add to this the way he'd kind of been rebuffing her personal overtures all season, and everything about that scenario says "last straw" to me, rather than Lindsay cutting-and-running. He'd been pulling away long before Child's Play.

Yeah, but who knows what would have happened if she'd gone to him and tried to reach out to him. If she'd made an attempt to talk to him. Flack's a man of action, but I notice how he always is willing to reach out to Danny and try to get him to talk. Danny's high maintenance for sure, but she knew that getting into the relationship. And really, it's not unreasonable for him to expect his girlfriend to make an effort to be there for him when he's going through a terrible ordeal.

She was there for him, he just didn't look long enough to notice.

Yeah, but he shouldn't have had to look. There are times you need to reach out to someone to show you care, and this was one of them.

Ideally, she'd be the sort of person who could do for him what he did for her in S3, yeah. But she's not, and to be fair, Danny had known that about her for at least 3 years by that point. I do get that he's not the one who should be making compromises when he's grieving, but the thing is that he knew her. I really think it' only makes sense that he'd be on the lookout for anything that came from her.

Even if he'd wanted to, I doubt he was in the frame of mind to do that.

I mean, picking up the phone when she called, or asking who'd covered his shift, or even abstractly venting to Lindsay the way he did to Mac and Adam - would that really have even been a compromise, let alone a massive effort?

He was in panic mode when he ignored her calls--I doubt he ignored her calls from Child's Play to RND, or she wouldn't have asked him out to lunch. We saw him answer a call from her in RND, so that says to me the ignored calls were just during that one crisis. As for abstractly venting... I think he not unreasonably expected her to say something to him.

Aaannnd....part 2 coming right up!

I'm hitting the sack now--will respond to Part 2 in the morning!

 

[Top41]

And Part 2!

She seemed prepared to have Lucy on her own and raise her if Danny didn't want to be involved - that's not the same thing as shutting him out when he'd specifically claimed an interest. The "I'm not expecting anything from you" bit I really viewed as Lindsay talking about her expectations, not the baby's. What she might/might not expect from Danny (going through ultra-sounds, doctor's appointments, making up a nursery, etc etc, pregnancy stuff), and what Lucy had a right to expect from Danny (Danny being a father, basically) are two entirely separate things. Even Danny seemed to know this on some level - if he hadn't, I think he would've spent far more time on her "wrong time" answer (maybe worrying that it meant she really was going to run), rather than quickly bypassing it in favour of finding out what was wrong with him as a guy.

But even if she didn't mean it that way, I think he took it that way. And the wrong guy absolutely was telling because it implied she thought he was the wrong guy for her--and the baby. I don't think Danny thought that Lindsay believed he'd make a good father.

Well, I just thought it was harsher than the Hawkes brush-off - he sounded lighter with Hawkes, I'll just say. And yeah, I guess I can see that double standard, but being fair, the times when Lindsay just wants them to do their jobs are times when they're not together but Danny still wants them to cut out of work for lunch. In "The Deep", she and Danny were presumably together, he'd (presumably) given her the impression that he'd be interested in said relationship, and therefore wouldn't find it a big deal to listen to her personal feelings about him - when expressed in a roundabout, work-appropriate way.

If Danny comfortably received praise from others, it might seem more telling to me. But he's never known what to do with it, and maybe he felt more comfortable directly telling her to change the subject than he does with people he's not sleeping with.

Yeah, but Danny never once tried to brush Flack off when Flack first showed up in AitF - he did so later, but not that first time. Flack made a sarcastic comment about the batting cages, Danny said they were closed for maintenance - then mentioned he didn't give a crap about Ollie Barnes when Flack said Barnes "wasn't the one screwing up Danny's career" --> he responded to every one of Flack's statements. And when Flack asked why he was there, Danny spilled immediately. It didn't seem like he was ever trying to brush Flack off, or that he wanted to.

He kind of tried to play it off lightly in the beginning to Flack, but Flack was having none of it. And then he told Flack to "pretend you never saw me." So he tried to make Flack go away. At the same time, Flack's attitude and demeanor made it very clear he wasn't going anywhere. That was obvious from the minute Flack showed up, so yeah, Danny caved pretty quickly. He also did it to correct Flack's erroneous assumption that he was going after Ollie Barnes. As we've seen in the past, Danny has an issue with people thinking the wrong thing about him. But mostly I think it was Flack's domineering attitude--Danny got very passive and compliant in the face of that.

After being yo-yo-ed around all season, there was even less reason for Lindsay to assume Danny would even want to talk to her - yet he was still clinging. I think he followed her cues, but I highly doubt that's how it would've appeared to Lindsay. That's not how it would've appeared to me were I Lindsay. After a year of boomerang-ing him around, I'd be shocked that the guy would even want to look at me, let alone still flirt with me after the mess was over...but if he did, I'd assume that he liked me a lot. I really feel that's an assumption other people would come to, too.

It's a fair assumption--I think Danny can be hard to read at times because it all seems to be right there on the surface, out in the open for everyone to see--you have to look a little harder to see the damage.

He did know how to seal the deal, and it was clearly all about that - wanting to keep her in his life, any way he could. If it were at all about trying to actually fix things between them, he wouldn't have been as concerned about whether she'd be angry by what he said, so long as she knew his side of things. He's passive when people get angry, but for the most part he usually does try to get his point of view across when it's important to him - even with Mac, in "Crime and Misdemeanour", "On the Job", RSRD.

Yeah, but he'd been trying for three episodes to get her to hear his side of things--with no luck. So he gave up and gave in and gave her what he thought she wanted. And her coming over only reinforced that that was exactly what she wanted.

Well yeah, that's why he wanted the quick fix. No, she doesn't take criticism that well; although we've seen so few people actually criticize her - but the few times she gets it, she usually does come around to their points of view eventually, or quickly enough (Danny in All Access, Stella in Silent Night, Mac in LWFM). I think she might've been a little peeved if he'd told her that she didn't do things right .... but you know, she seemed very aware of that already, and even if she was peeved I think she'd've gotten over it soon enough. Obviously, it would've taken effort, maybe even another cold spell. But if he'd had even the slightest interest in having a dialogue with her, getting his say in, then that wouldn't have been an issue for him.

But again... this is Danny. Being shut out by her is obviously what hurt him, in the same way being shut out by Mac hurt him in season one. In season one, he went to get a psych eval to please Mac. Here, he puts out for Lindsay. If someone won't hear/accept his side of things, he eventually just shuts down and does what they want him to do.

And she doesn't take any sort of criticism well at all, so why set her off when she was finally being nice to him? It was easier to just say what she wanted to hear. I think he thought he was being nice, not criticizing her.

I really don't think she believed him for a second when he said "I love you" in the Triangle, so I don't think it was just a question of what she wanted to hear. She knew he didn't love her. And yeah, it certainly affected their relationship, but when the baby got involved she was friendly enough with him that it seemed she was willing to overlook it. Even before his proposal in the Triangle, or when he said he loved her. She knew he didn't, but really, to her it only seemed to matter that he wanted to be involved with Lucy - that was enough to make her friendship strong again with him. He didn't need the love front.

But he thought he did. The "I love you" stuff from him seemed so desperate. Even if it wasn't at all rational, I think it was pretty obvious Danny feared she was going to take the baby and leave him if he didn't get a ring on her finger.

I agree Danny probably didn't find it as easy to give up "I love you" as he did sex - but he certainly left her with the hope that he might, during that phone call in PF. "Please come over so you can tell me you love me in person" - I mean, it implies more than just an impersonal booty-call. And I think Danny meant it to, if only for the purpose of bringing her over. At the very least, it implied that he was open to her own love for him. I think Lindsay knew perfectly well what would happen if she went over to Danny's place that night (that's why I was so under the impression that she hadn't :brickwall, but I don't think the line would've been able to lure her over if she didn't think it was about more than just sex.

Oh, sure, it definitely wasn't just about sex, and I think he was completely open to her loving him. I think it's what made him finally decide having her back would be a good thing. Danny doesn't think anyone loves him or that he's worthy of love, so hearing someone say it to him must have been a draw.

In that case, I definitely think we would've seen more pointed coldness from him toward her. Especially the day she came back after committing all these fiascos. (Flack's happy around Danny, yeah, but it's not like Danny's presence makes him lose all sense of who should be treated like a pariah and who he should be nice to - he keeps it together with Danny in front of suspects, and when he was with Sam in "Veritas")

Well, in front of suspects is one thing (though even then, like in "Sex, Lies and Silicone," the teasing banter with Danny comes out) or when there's some dire situation, but I think Flack was reacting to being around Danny and seeing Danny happy again. And he was kind of cold/impatient with her when Danny wasn't around in "What Schemes May Come." I think he stays out of it for the most part, but the annoyance shows through in little ways.

She wasn't so much rude to everyone else in Stealing Home. Withdrawn, and irritated when Mac revealed that Danny had gone to him about Lindsay's obsession with the case, but not exactly rude. And not as much as she was with Flack. I don't think she was holding a grudge, per se, but I do think that in Cool Hunter, she might've classed him as someone who didn't like her because of the tiny interrogation-thing. And so the next time she saw him, she just remembered that and responded in kind, the way she does with people she thinks don't like her. She glosses over Mac's irritation because she knows Mac likes her. The way she maybe does with Flack now, because I think she's fairly assured that he likes her (and from what I've seen, the only way she'd be assured of this is if he did). She didn't seem to think he liked her in Stealing Home, and it showed.

I remember her having an attitude in "Stealing Home" with everyone, but I know she's treated Danny the way she treated Flack in SH, so really, I think that's just the way she gets when she gets frustrated/driven. I actually remember being really interested in that obsessive side of her, and disappointed when it never really came out again.

I totally think Flack acted out of love during that whole episode, even during the yelling moment (although I don't agree that anyone else would've just ditched their best friend in the same scenario).

Maybe not ditched right away, but at some point thrown up their hands and said, "Fine, you want to handle this on your own--have at it." ...Kind of the way Lindsay did in RND. I think Flack showed extraordinary patience and care.

But I do have to say it didn't easily come across that way; I think this was in part because of Flack's character...he's pretty reserved, so it's hard for him to convey emotions like fear or concern in the most obvious ways. The fear and the concern mixed in with the (very potent, I'm sure) irritation with the whole scenario - and so it came out harshly when he started to yell. And I get that he had to just let it out, but I don't think that one-hour ultimatum was what Danny needed to hear right then, not in that tone.

I totally saw fear and concern when Flack pulled Danny off Ollie and then yelled at him to bring Rikki in. And Danny absolutely needed that ultimatum or he wouldn't have done what he needed to do. Flack was forceful with Danny in that episode because a lot was at stake and he knew he had to be hard on Danny to get him to do what needed to be done.

Really, even more than D/L? :lol: I totally don't think Flack would put up with Lindsay's behaviour for a second, but that right there is exactly why I prefer the pairing so much. Lindsay badly, badly needs a stable guy (or stable anyone, really) who just won't put up with her BS - who, in fact, will give her his own BS that she'll have to put up with in a workable way.

Way, way more than D/L. Lindsay doesn't deserve a guy like Flack because of the crap she pulls, and I can't see him wanting to waste his time with someone like that. He's way too healthy to be into her in that way. There's a great quote with Eddie in one of the CSI Files interviews (I need to go find it!) where he basically says that Flack wouldn't go for the "yes-no-yes-no-yes" thing at all.

Additionally, it's because I totally don't buy into the whole "opposites-attract" thing (because look how well that worked out for D/L ), and Lindsay and Flack may well be the two most similar characters on the show. Mac is stoic, but that in part seems to be because all his emotions are generally subdued (as opposed to Flack, who feels deeply but controls it, and Lindsay, who also seems to feel deeply, but shows it erratically). Hawkes comes across as stoic, but that has mostly to do with his lack of storylines - when we saw him in that girlfriend storyline in S5, he seemed as liable to freak out as Danny has ever been.

Flack and Lindsay have some things in common, yeah, which is why I think they're both drawn to Danny. Danny's so different from them, so open with his emotions, that I think both need that. Danny draws each of them out in a way neither would draw the other out.

*shrug* I think Lindsay is more than pretty enough for Flack, as are all the other women on the show (because, um, CSI: NY is basically a runway for Hollywood-glamorous cops. It's not even this bad on CSI: Miami)...

Lindsay has always struck me as being so plain--not a believable match for either Danny or Flack. If she'd had an awesome personality, I could have totally seen Danny going for her--but average looks combined with her shrill brittleness always left me scratching my head as to why anyone would bother. She's not especially nice or pretty.

but then, I've always seen Danny as the hotter of the two rather than Flack, and they can't seem to pry D/L apart, so maybe that's just me.

Interesting... I'm split. I think Flack is the more classically handsome of the two, but Danny is much more overtly sexual. Danny's the sexpot of the show, while Flack is the handsome stoic (some would say Mac is, too).

 

[Maya316]

But that hostility and defensiveness is the weapon she uses to get them to let her off the hook--she hits with that and immediately the other person is taken aback and on the defensive themselves.

It doesn't seem like the best strategy though - get them to let me off the hook by making them angrier first? I just think that if she was used to people indulging her, and expected them to, she wouldn't bother with strategies that might backfire - she'd just start off with the excuse. One day, you know, someone isn't going to back down after she gets hostile with them.

Yeah, but we've seen her do it, too. I think Mac just doesn't call on her for those situations, because other characters are tougher/more action-oriented than she is. The same is true of Adam... which is why I think over the last few seasons, Lindsay has kind of evolved into a glorified lab tech.

I think Mac doesn't call on her for those situations because he knew of her past before he hired her. The only time we've seen her go into one of those situations with even a slight expectation to get shot (save for "Not What it Looks Like") was that scene in "DOA for a Day", isn't it? And really, it just looked like a weird moment to promote the Flack/Angell, D/L double-date thing.

I don't remember that--I'll have to go back and look. I'd suspect it was from the shock of Angell dying more than any direct flashbacks to her past, though. Everyone was reacting to it, though bafflingly, we got a lot more reactions from her than some other characters. I remember a lot of that pensive scrunch face she uses to convey emotion... eeek.

I remember being baffled by the excess of Lindsay-sadness (although I'd say it was shock more than sadness) because I'd be shocked if Lindsay and Angell had exchanged more than three words to each other before. I didn't even think they'd met until I saw "DOA for a Day" on TV a couple weeks ago.

I'll be honest, I always thought that scene made her look incredibly stupid. That should have been at the forefront of her mind long before that moment--from the minute she found out she was pregnant, really. So I have to disagree on the urgency--and she had no way of knowing before she asked that Stella would tell her it was fine, so that doesn't really factor into Lindsay's own actions.

Hm, I guess I can see how it maybe should've been a concern from the first. Although being fair, any lab that's even halfway credible would generally have safety measures in place that would protect their employees regardless of whether they're pregnant or not (fume hoods, safety goggles, safety masks when necessary, etc). It's not like drinking alcohol or breathing in second-hand smoke, is it? When you're working in a lab, chances are that anything that's going to affect your fetus is going to affect you first. So maybe Lindsay was fairly secure in the safety measures at the lab already, but just wanted to make sure.

It definitely, definitely can be, but it could also have been an, "I'm sorry I hurt you--can we talk about this." It could have gone either way, I totally agree, but if she doesn't hear what he's going to say then how is she to know?

True...this might be one of those moments where we're forced to fill in the blanks ourselves again, actually. Because it's not like Lindsay turned him down to talk in that RND scene - she changed the subject because kidnapped children took precedent. So if Danny had meant it as a "can we talk about this", it feels like he should have approached her after work that day...only in LWFM, it didn't seem like that ever happened.

Yeah, I can see that--I actually went back and rewatched part of the episode (before getting interrupted by a phone call!) and I think you're right that he does seem to consider them over. It's weird because he's still trying to be friendly, but he definitely seems to have walls up--he's totally holding her at arm's length. But I kind of think he was mad/hurt that she didn't really reach out to him after Ruben's death--it was almost a childish thing. Like, "Fine, you don't want to be there for me? I'll shut you out totally."

Yeah, I think I can see how that might've been his thought process. On some level, he probably was expecting Lindsay to do the grand-gesture thing like he did in S3. I still think it wasn't a fair expectation, though, since he'd known her for a while. I mean, even Lindsay gave him some small indication that he'd be wanted if he went to Montana - the card. And I really can't think of any opening that Danny gave Lindsay in that same way. I believe she would've taken him up on it if he had. I see him as holding her at arms length throughout S4, although yeah, it got more pronounced after Child's Play.

I admit, I get stuck on the rental thing a bit. Do you think it was just a request as a friend, or do you think he was thinking he'd get her to watch the movie, he'd put out and then all would be well again and she wouldn't be mad at him anymore.

I always get stuck on that rental thing It completely came out of left field, and first time I watched it I was all "why, why would you ask that?" That's why I think his guilt over Lindsay was more of a pitying, "I'm sorry you got hurt" guilt, rather than him being sorry that she was in love with him. He liked that she was in love with him, but didn't really seem to consider what that might mean for her. Hence, why he seemed to think the rental thing would go over okay. I'm not sure he thought he really had much to fix at that point. If Lindsay had said "yes" to renting Jaws, I don't think he'd have put out - I think he would have thought things were okay between them and left it at that, so long as they continued being hang-out friends and she stayed in his life that way.

Agreed, though I wonder if he would have tried to pacify her in RND or if he would have actually ended it or said he couldn't be with her or even opened up to her about grieving and why he hadn't come to her. He seemed totally beaten down when she chewed him out in RND--just completely vulnerable and downtrodden--I just think at that point, he couldn't take any more. The guilt was obviously eating him up about Ruben, and now he had Lindsay piling on.

Yeah...argh, now I'm really wondering if Danny would've given his reasons for breaking up with Lindsay if they'd made that scene longer. At the time they seemed fairly straightforward - he didn't feel the same - but it's true that his grieving, and why he couldn't come to her never came up. There was a pause during Lindsay's monologue, though, where he could have - should have, really - said something about just that. Even a quick thing, like "well, where were you?" when she accused him of doing it all on his own. Something. I know he was downtrodden, but Danny's mouthed off to Mac in ways even he admits are "out of line" when Mac is shouting at him - and Lindsay hadn't even said anything that could remotely be taken as an insult at that point. Instead he just refused to answer, and I get that she didn't try everything she absolutely could have, but that moment of non-answering really seems to epitomize what he'd been doing throughout the whole Ruben arc when it came to her.

"We should talk" implied he had something more to say. Even if he was going to flat out dump her... she'd said her piece, shouldn't he be allowed to say his? Maybe he would have actually said why.

Oh gosh, I would love to have heard him say why (I thought I had, but if it was directly related to the Ruben-thing, I would've wanted to hear him say so too). But at the same time, Lindsay didn't shoot him down when he said "we should talk" - again, the kids were more important. So that's what makes me think that if "we should talk" meant more than it seemed, he would've approached her after work. It didn't look like she just wasn't letting him say his piece; if he'd felt the need to approach her after work, she would've listened. The one time it became clear that he really did have to say something (PF), she basically let him say it.

That was in the next episode, after he had gotten the message that she didn't want to hear what he had to say. But maybe he figured they'd talk then, that offering something casual was a better way to approach her?

See, I don't think Lindsay ever sent that message - not in RND, anyway. Although that's an interesting point: if Lindsay had said yes to Jaws, would the Ruben thing have come up at some point during the movie? I don't think Danny was really offering the rental thing as a way of saying his piece; I think he was trying to clear the air, but if Lindsay had said yes, that would indicate that she was back to being in his life, as his friend - he would've considered the air cleared. But he tends to respond better to Lindsay when she's in "friend" status rather than "girlfriend/wife" status, so maybe his grief would've come up?

Maybe, though he's always kind of had to chase her down to have his say, from the hallway scene in Love Run Cold to the marriage thing in The Triangle. Maybe he was looking for a time and not finding it. He could have blurted it but for whatever reason maybe he didn't want to. Maybe he was going to confide in her about Ruben and didn't want to do it in the middle of the lab. It's hard to know, since he never got to say his piece.

True, he usually does have to chase her down, but he didn't have to do it for the marriage thing - that he just dumped on her. I think if she'd been expecting it, she probably wouldn't have let herself be caught alone with him,. So um, maybe he learned the lesson by then? :lol: But it seemed like the marriage thing was weighing on him all episode, and was finally important enough to just dump on her. And I think anything huge he might've had to say after RND would've been at least that important...although yeah, we never got to hear him say anything about it.

I don't think she would have, though. He wanted to talk; she didn't want to hear it. Even if it was prefaced with an "I'm sorry," that's hardly the most offensive thing he could say to her. If he'd said "You're full of it" and then she hadn't wanted to hear his side, I would have totally understood. But he did seem contrite or at least sincere about wanting to talk.

But in RND, it wasn't that she didn't want to hear it - there were more important things at stake. If there had been anything beyond the "I'm sorry", though, I think Danny would've (or should've) found her afterwards - but we were left with the impression that there wasn't, because they didn't seem to have talked in LWFM.

LOL, thanks. But at the same time, I kind of thought her shields were down... that she was desperately hoping he'd tell her he loved her back, or at least something close. That's probably why she went over there. And then Danny used sex as a fix and she half-bought it, because she wanted him so much. At the same time, that kind of reinforced what Danny believed--that sex was what she wanted from him, that that was what he needed to do to feed the love she had for him. If she thinks he's hard to love, she could leave him at any time, in his mind.

Oh yeah, I absolutely think she was hoping he'd say it back, or at least imply that he did. But at the same time, I think her shields were up, especially with that "hard you are to love" line, because she said it almost defensively, in direct reaction to everything he'd said before. I think she knew he was just trying to pacify her. She was trying to get him to tell her what she'd done wrong, and he started in on all the "I swear to God it won't happen again" "I miss you more than I can say" - he already knew she loved him at that point, and he seemed to be using all these phrases he knew would get to her, to make her cave. I can't entirely discount the fact that it's only after he said those lines that she got kind of defensive ("hard to love"...and then her very next line, "I gotta go" before hanging up). Maybe she thought he wasn't taking her love confession seriously? Or maybe she thought he didn't really believe her when she said she loved him?

True, but Flack has definitely seen that difficult side of Danny, the side of him that believes no one really cares. In On the Job, in All in the Family... Danny might be more willing to give into Flack--Danny can be such a bossy little princess with Flack, but when it comes down to it, Flack will assert himself over Danny and Danny kind of passively accepts it, like in RSRD or AitF. Flack has partially gotten through Danny's shields, much more so than anyone else, but Danny still pushes Flack to see how deeply Flack cares for him. That little outburst at the end of AitF proved that Danny still needs reassurances from Flack, too. Yeah, Danny can be very hard to love... but Flack is one persistent SOB.

Flack's been witness to Danny's difficult side, but he's never really experienced it himself. Recognizing that Danny doesn't believe anyone cares isn't quite the same thing as Flack repeatedly realizing that Danny doesn't believe he cares; which I think is what Lindsay and to a lesser extent, Mac, have gone through. Even in On the Job, Danny was griping about feeling very alone and no one having his back - but he didn't seem to include Flack among "no one", and Flack never once seemed to assume that Danny didn't believe he was behind him. He was just telling Danny that he had to trust Mac to be there for him - it didn't even occur to him that Danny might be speaking of him too. And it didn't, because Danny wasn't.

Yeah, but who knows what would have happened if she'd gone to him and tried to reach out to him. If she'd made an attempt to talk to him. Flack's a man of action, but I notice how he always is willing to reach out to Danny and try to get him to talk. Danny's high maintenance for sure, but she knew that getting into the relationship. And really, it's not unreasonable for him to expect his girlfriend to make an effort to be there for him when he's going through a terrible ordeal.

True, there's no telling what would've happened if Lindsay had directly reached out more. It's really just that series of things that make me think it wouldn't have gone over much better than any of Lindsay's other efforts; it was almost pointed, how specifically he seemed to not want to reveal anything to her. It's not unreasonable to expect his girlfriend to make an effort, but I also think it's rather necessary to give even a small indication that her effort would be welcome. Even Flack - I definitely agree he's always reaching out to Danny, but more often than not, Danny is always giving Flack an opening. He was the one to ask Flack if he'd heard about Aiden's death in "Heroes", thus opening the Chicken Parm conversation. Heck, even in "On the Job", it was Danny waiting at the diner for Flack to arrive - kind of suggesting that he, and not Flack, set the meeting.

He was in panic mode when he ignored her calls--I doubt he ignored her calls from Child's Play to RND, or she wouldn't have asked him out to lunch. We saw him answer a call from her in RND, so that says to me the ignored calls were just during that one crisis. As for abstractly venting... I think he not unreasonably expected her to say something to him.

True, I guess the crisis might've played a big part in his not answering his phone - although this has never made sense to me, even given Danny's reluctance to let Lindsay in on his grief. You'd think it'd just make sense to call someone at the lab, ask them to track Rikki's cell phone; he'd've found her that much faster. And if there was anyone at the lab he could've gotten to do it without getting in trouble, it would've been Lindsay; but that would involve letting her in on what was going on.

And with the venting...the only time someone that wasn't Flack did say something to him (Angell), he kind of shut down. Danny rarely expects people to say something to him to get him to talk - this venting thing happens all the time. He was able to vent to Lindsay a little in "Run Silent", when it was Louie on the verge of death. Why not now?

I know I know, I've skipped a lot - but it's literally the middle of the night here :lol: Part 2 on its way in a sec!

 

[Maya316]

But even if she didn't mean it that way, I think he took it that way. And the wrong guy absolutely was telling because it implied she thought he was the wrong guy for her--and the baby. I don't think Danny thought that Lindsay believed he'd make a good father.

He might've taken it that way initially, but actions do speak louder than words - and Lindsay did everything after that episode to show him that she thought he'd make a good father. (You just don't let anyone read a comic book over your stomach even on a good day, let alone while you're working.) Why would the words stick, and the actions not stick?

If Danny comfortably received praise from others, it might seem more telling to me. But he's never known what to do with it, and maybe he felt more comfortable directly telling her to change the subject than he does with people he's not sleeping with.

I can see that, but saying the same thing he said to Hawkes "don't worry about it" would've worked just as well as "Stop goofing off", without coming off so brusquely.

He kind of tried to play it off lightly in the beginning to Flack, but Flack was having none of it. And then he told Flack to "pretend you never saw me." So he tried to make Flack go away. At the same time, Flack's attitude and demeanor made it very clear he wasn't going anywhere. That was obvious from the minute Flack showed up, so yeah, Danny caved pretty quickly. He also did it to correct Flack's erroneous assumption that he was going after Ollie Barnes. As we've seen in the past, Danny has an issue with people thinking the wrong thing about him. But mostly I think it was Flack's domineering attitude--Danny got very passive and compliant in the face of that.

"Pretend you never saw me" doesn't say "get lost" so much as it says that Danny didn't actually expect Flack to want to get involved. When Flack demanded half the list, Danny gave it up without another thought. That might've been Flack's attitude, but Danny's been stubborn to domineering people in the past, too - certainly, he put up more of a fight with Mac in On the Job and Crime and Misdemeanour, and Mac was actually angry with him. I think Danny easily lets Flack in, in a way he doesn't with others.

Yeah, but he'd been trying for three episodes to get her to hear his side of things--with no luck. So he gave up and gave in and gave her what he thought she wanted. And her coming over only reinforced that that was exactly what she wanted.

If he'd tried even a tenth as hard as he tried in "Crime and Misdemeanor" or RSRD or "On the Job", Lindsay would've been hearing his side of things way back in "RND". That's still really why I think he didn't have much else to say, except what he said in PF.

I remember her having an attitude in "Stealing Home" with everyone, but I know she's treated Danny the way she treated Flack in SH, so really, I think that's just the way she gets when she gets frustrated/driven. I actually remember being really interested in that obsessive side of her, and disappointed when it never really came out again.

True, she has stormed away from Danny before - but off the top of my head, the only time I can remember her not being mad/frustrated at him directly when she's done it is "All Access". And the one time I can remember her doing anything similar with any of her other coworkers is when she stormed off after Stella snapped at her in that S3 psychotherapist episode (lol, I really have to look up the name of that one). She has wandered off in the middle of conversations before due to a case, but I wouldn't call any of those "storming off".

Maybe not ditched right away, but at some point thrown up their hands and said, "Fine, you want to handle this on your own--have at it." ...Kind of the way Lindsay did in RND. I think Flack showed extraordinary patience and care.

Well yeah, but there really is a difference between spending a day chasing someone around town, and giving up after (is it safe to assume it was about 5 months? Since "Child's Play" aired in December, and "RND" in April?)...either way, quite a while.

I totally saw fear and concern when Flack pulled Danny off Ollie and then yelled at him to bring Rikki in. And Danny absolutely needed that ultimatum or he wouldn't have done what he needed to do. Flack was forceful with Danny in that episode because a lot was at stake and he knew he had to be hard on Danny to get him to do what needed to be done.

Oh yes, I agree with that; Danny needed to hear it to do the right thing. But I think the yelling came out harshly, and would've sounded harsh to Danny, and that was my original point. Flack did it out of concern, but when it's necessary he's capable of being hard on Danny regardless of whether he's grieving or not.

Warning: Try not to mind, but I'm kind of gonna embarrass myself from here on in this post by waxing on about Flack (and Lindsay a little, and Danny):lol:

Way, way more than D/L. Lindsay doesn't deserve a guy like Flack because of the crap she pulls, and I can't see him wanting to waste his time with someone like that. He's way too healthy to be into her in that way. There's a great quote with Eddie in one of the CSI Files interviews (I need to go find it!) where he basically says that Flack wouldn't go for the "yes-no-yes-no-yes" thing at all.

That's why Lindsay wouldn't be able to pull the "yes-no-yes-no" thing on him. The "yes-no" isn't the defining aspect of her character - she pulls it on Danny half because he allows it, and half because he feeds it (most of the time Lindsay is directly reacting to something she's interpreting from Danny's behaviour). If Lindsay were to show Flack she was interested, Flack wouldn't react just for the sake of reacting. And if Lindsay were to say no, it would be no definitively - he wouldn't give her the time of day again. That right there makes Flack/Lindsay worlds healthier than D/L already.

It's what I mean by someone calling her on her crap. It would really have to be her who would have to work for the relationship. Flack isn't nearly as touchy as I think he could be given her treatment of Danny, and I'm really not buying that he secretly resents her. But he is the only character we've never really seen indulge her. Like you said, Mac coddles, Stella's really forgiving, Danny and Adam are doormats, even Hawkes lets her leave him to process crime scenes on his own. Flack calls her on stuff. I really loved his "Did you call him?" line in "AitF" when Lindsay came to him about Danny. It's the closest anyone came to calling her on what we've been arguing about this entire thread - how bad she is with making the effort to reach out. He enjoys needling her, and seeing her annoyed/unsettled (even that Sam moment in "Dead Inside" made it seem like he was really enjoying how horrified Lindsay was at the thought of them together); I think their snarky bantering is in fun, but it's really one of the only things keeping Lindsay on her toes right now. She knows that if Flack ever could find a way to get one over on her, he would totally do it.

I know you don't see anything in Lindsay that would attract Flack, or any guy. I do We may have to agree to disagree on this, but I have to say that on my list of favourite things about Lindsay, it feels like Flack has registered more of them than Danny ever has.

Flack and Lindsay have some things in common, yeah, which is why I think they're both drawn to Danny. Danny's so different from them, so open with his emotions, that I think both need that. Danny draws each of them out in a way neither would draw the other out.

Danny's an emotional livewire, and Flack's 'id', but I completely disagree that Flack isn't open enough with his emotions and needs to be drawn out more. Most people don't think with their id. Flack is on the stoic side, but he feels deeply: his concern for Stella in "All Access" was extremely apparent and shown in a healthy way (as opposed to Lindsay's), as was his glee over that motorcycle in S1's finale, and over reuniting with his mentor Officer Moran (again, S1); and his torment over shooting that mob guy in "Snow Day", and over Officer Truby. He shows his feelings healthily, without needing to bleed them all over the floor, so to speak. That's why I think he's what Lindsay wants to be.

I totally see why Danny's otherness and passion draws both Flack and Lindsay - but for Lindsay anyway (imo), getting involved with Danny was not one of her smartest moves. She has no business being in a relationship with a character like Danny. He's unbelievably damaged; which would be fine, except that she's unbelievably damaged too, in the exact way that would make it impossible for her to handle Danny even if he was healthy. I'd think it was intentional, only I don't give TPTB that much credit. He's so emotional that she doesn't seem to believe it half the time, let alone know what to do with it. I view her getting involved with him as Lindsay being stupid, because she seems to realize most of this, a lot of the time.

Flack would fare better largely because he's healthy. But then, I'd have to see Flack put up with things that make Danny's damage hard to deal with for other people, to be sure (the constant positive reinforcement that never goes through, even the mixed signals of "is he attracted? Or is he just responding because he's damaged?"). For Flack, Danny tends to make things...not easy, but he's never once given Flack the impression that it's specifically him he doesn't trust. But being entirely fair, if Flack as a healthy person can put up with Danny's damage the hard way, I'm not seeing why he can't do the same with Lindsay.

Lindsay has always struck me as being so plain--not a believable match for either Danny or Flack. If she'd had an awesome personality, I could have totally seen Danny going for her--but average looks combined with her shrill brittleness always left me scratching my head as to why anyone would bother. She's not especially nice or pretty.

Well, someone bothered. Other than Danny, I mean - wasn't she on a date in Risk before she showed up at the crime scene? I've always seen her as pretty enough - she's not conventionally lovely, like Angell or even Stella, but I think she's "cute-girl-next-door" pretty. It's very subjective. But to be honest, I'm not sure D/L as a pairing would've even flown past its first season if Lindsay was plain, no matter how many plain-janes wanted to over-identify with her. Especially since Danny was established so strongly as a character before Lindsay even showed up. From what I've seen, fans tend to protest loudly enough for a show to respond if their favourite hot character is hooking up with someone they see as "not in his league" (Callie on Grey's Anatomy is gorgeous, imo, but it's an unconventional beauty that doesn't seem to appeal to many; and I'm not sure it's a coincidence that she was shafted from first George, and then Mark Sloane).

Interesting... I'm split. I think Flack is the more classically handsome of the two, but Danny is much more overtly sexual. Danny's the sexpot of the show, while Flack is the handsome stoic (some would say Mac is, too).

Oh definitely, Flack is the classically handsome one. :hugegrin: Which I normally do find appealing, but Danny's got that disheveled charm going - and when put together with Flack, for me it's Danny who wins out. Subjective again, I know.

[Slightly OT, but I feel compelled to mention it here: I saw this thing on Sidereel.com, where they'd rated the 50 hottest men on TV; Flack came in number 18, and Danny was either number 7 or 9, I forget (I was distracted by how proud I was that they'd made the list, because it was including characters from teen-oriented shows too :lol.]

 

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Jumping back in after a long absence! Sorry about that--it's been a busy week.

It doesn't seem like the best strategy though - get them to let me off the hook by making them angrier first? I just think that if she was used to people indulging her, and expected them to, she wouldn't bother with strategies that might backfire - she'd just start off with the excuse. One day, you know, someone isn't going to back down after she gets hostile with them.

Oh, it's absolutely a strategy to go at your opponent aggressively and throw them off balance. I think she expects people to back off in the face of that hostility, and Danny certainly does. Stella didn't, but then Lindsay used her other technique, which is storming off. The hostility is something she's seen work for her in the past, so she rolls it out when she needs it. It works more than it doesn't, really.

I think Mac doesn't call on her for those situations because he knew of her past before he hired her. The only time we've seen her go into one of those situations with even a slight expectation to get shot (save for "Not What it Looks Like") was that scene in "DOA for a Day", isn't it? And really, it just looked like a weird moment to promote the Flack/Angell, D/L double-date thing.

Well, she was there in a vest in "Snow Day" and of course in "Not What It Looks Like." I admit, I've always classed her absence from those situations alongside those of Hawkes and Adam--they're simply more lab guys. If anything it makes her look even more like a wimpy Mary Sue type, so I hope they're not going for a "Mac shields her from dangerous situations!" thing.

I remember being baffled by the excess of Lindsay-sadness (although I'd say it was shock more than sadness) because I'd be shocked if Lindsay and Angell had exchanged more than three words to each other before. I didn't even think they'd met until I saw "DOA for a Day" on TV a couple weeks ago.

It felt off to me, but Anna's emoting doesn't help--the pensive scrunch face always takes me out of things. But Lindsay going around acting so affected was just another example of her making something she was only tangentially involved in All About Her. Like she did in "All Access."

Hm, I guess I can see how it maybe should've been a concern from the first. Although being fair, any lab that's even halfway credible would generally have safety measures in place that would protect their employees regardless of whether they're pregnant or not (fume hoods, safety goggles, safety masks when necessary, etc). It's not like drinking alcohol or breathing in second-hand smoke, is it? When you're working in a lab, chances are that anything that's going to affect your fetus is going to affect you first. So maybe Lindsay was fairly secure in the safety measures at the lab already, but just wanted to make sure.

Pregnancy is a whole different ball game that goes past the normal safety measures. Pregnant women can't drink alcohol or eat sushi or ride rollercoasters--it stands to reason that the chemicals in the lab might affect a fetus in the way they wouldn't a healthy adult.

True...this might be one of those moments where we're forced to fill in the blanks ourselves again, actually. Because it's not like Lindsay turned him down to talk in that RND scene - she changed the subject because kidnapped children took precedent. So if Danny had meant it as a "can we talk about this", it feels like he should have approached her after work that day...only in LWFM, it didn't seem like that ever happened.

I suspect he took her brush-off in the lab--even if it was case-related--as a sign that she didn't want to talk to him then. Maybe he was trying to give her her space. And then when she initiated the talk in LWFM he assumed things were getting back to fine--because he's a guy and guys are dopey like that. :lol:

Yeah, I think I can see how that might've been his thought process. On some level, he probably was expecting Lindsay to do the grand-gesture thing like he did in S3. I still think it wasn't a fair expectation, though, since he'd known her for a while. I mean, even Lindsay gave him some small indication that he'd be wanted if he went to Montana - the card. And I really can't think of any opening that Danny gave Lindsay in that same way. I believe she would've taken him up on it if he had. I see him as holding her at arms length throughout S4, although yeah, it got more pronounced after Child's Play.

But if she was clueless up to "Child's Play"--and really, she seemed to miss a lot of his putting his walls up (I hesitate to say pushing her away, because it didn't get that extreme), you'd think she'd realize that he was going through something terrible and she needed to push a little harder. He was joking with her in "Playing with Matches" and being friendly enough--I don't think he closed the door altogether. But she never even tried to go through it, save for one half-hearted attempt in "Child's Play" when he was literally losing it.

I always get stuck on that rental thing It completely came out of left field, and first time I watched it I was all "why, why would you ask that?" That's why I think his guilt over Lindsay was more of a pitying, "I'm sorry you got hurt" guilt, rather than him being sorry that she was in love with him. He liked that she was in love with him, but didn't really seem to consider what that might mean for her. Hence, why he seemed to think the rental thing would go over okay. I'm not sure he thought he really had much to fix at that point. If Lindsay had said "yes" to renting Jaws, I don't think he'd have put out - I think he would have thought things were okay between them and left it at that, so long as they continued being hang-out friends and she stayed in his life that way.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that, though on some level he had to know that the love thing would rear its head again. Did he really think that she'd be content to be just friends and hanging out like usual with someone she was in love with? Or was he testing her to see if she really did love him? I think at that point Danny wasn't sure what he wanted, other than he didn't want her mad at him.

Yeah...argh, now I'm really wondering if Danny would've given his reasons for breaking up with Lindsay if they'd made that scene longer. At the time they seemed fairly straightforward - he didn't feel the same - but it's true that his grieving, and why he couldn't come to her never came up. There was a pause during Lindsay's monologue, though, where he could have - should have, really - said something about just that. Even a quick thing, like "well, where were you?" when she accused him of doing it all on his own. Something. I know he was downtrodden, but Danny's mouthed off to Mac in ways even he admits are "out of line" when Mac is shouting at him - and Lindsay hadn't even said anything that could remotely be taken as an insult at that point. Instead he just refused to answer, and I get that she didn't try everything she absolutely could have, but that moment of non-answering really seems to epitomize what he'd been doing throughout the whole Ruben arc when it came to her.

I don't think it was a refusal to answer--Danny gets to a point where he just shuts down when someone lays into him. This is a big part of what makes me think he was abused. He fights initially (like he did with the comment about her still being angry about lunch) but as soon as someone really goes after him, he just shuts down and takes it. He did the exact same thing with Mac in "On the Job." When Mac really chewed him out for going to IAB after Danny walked out of the IAB interview, Danny didn't say a single word. He just took it. Mac's anger, Lindsay's anger... it's the same thing. He just shuts down. You can practically see him getting the shit kicked out of him as a kid. There's a moment where he protests, but then he just gives up and shuts down. I think that's what happened in RND. By the time she got to that pause, it was too late--he was in shutdown mode.

Oh gosh, I would love to have heard him say why (I thought I had, but if it was directly related to the Ruben-thing, I would've wanted to hear him say so too). But at the same time, Lindsay didn't shoot him down when he said "we should talk" - again, the kids were more important. So that's what makes me think that if "we should talk" meant more than it seemed, he would've approached her after work. It didn't look like she just wasn't letting him say his piece; if he'd felt the need to approach her after work, she would've listened. The one time it became clear that he really did have to say something (PF), she basically let him say it.

Maybe, but I kind of think not. And I suspect he got that feeling when he approached her and she didn't want to hear it. Fair enough about the case, but Danny probably took it more personally. And in PF, he had to fight to get her to hear what he wanted to say. She didn't want to hear it--she told him as much in the morgue.

See, I don't think Lindsay ever sent that message - not in RND, anyway. Although that's an interesting point: if Lindsay had said yes to Jaws, would the Ruben thing have come up at some point during the movie? I don't think Danny was really offering the rental thing as a way of saying his piece; I think he was trying to clear the air, but if Lindsay had said yes, that would indicate that she was back to being in his life, as his friend - he would've considered the air cleared. But he tends to respond better to Lindsay when she's in "friend" status rather than "girlfriend/wife" status, so maybe his grief would've come up?

I don't think that love thing is something can be forgotten though. I think Danny might have been testing her--did she really love him? I think the message he got eventually was "Yes--conditionally." That's why in season five we get all the "I can be the guy you want me to be" stuff. He's very aware that she doesn't want to deal with all his damage, that he needs to pack it away for them to be together. But I don't think he can do that.

True, he usually does have to chase her down, but he didn't have to do it for the marriage thing - that he just dumped on her. I think if she'd been expecting it, she probably wouldn't have let herself be caught alone with him,. So um, maybe he learned the lesson by then? :lol: But it seemed like the marriage thing was weighing on him all episode, and was finally important enough to just dump on her. And I think anything huge he might've had to say after RND would've been at least that important...although yeah, we never got to hear him say anything about it.

Well, fair enough though... she turned down his proposal with no explanation! He was a lot nicer than someone else would have been. And again, I think the baby was driving him. In RND, he didn't know what he wanted, so it was fine to let her walk away. Not once he'd realized how much he wanted that baby, though.

Oh yeah, I absolutely think she was hoping he'd say it back, or at least imply that he did. But at the same time, I think her shields were up, especially with that "hard you are to love" line, because she said it almost defensively, in direct reaction to everything he'd said before. I think she knew he was just trying to pacify her. She was trying to get him to tell her what she'd done wrong, and he started in on all the "I swear to God it won't happen again" "I miss you more than I can say" - he already knew she loved him at that point, and he seemed to be using all these phrases he knew would get to her, to make her cave. I can't entirely discount the fact that it's only after he said those lines that she got kind of defensive ("hard to love"...and then her very next line, "I gotta go" before hanging up). Maybe she thought he wasn't taking her love confession seriously? Or maybe she thought he didn't really believe her when she said she loved him?

Possibly! I just remember when he was appeasing her that her voice got much softer than it usually is--there's usually such a hardness about her, but there wasn't when she said the "hard to love" line. He was capitulating, trying to appease her, and she was getting what she wanted--sort of. I think she wanted to believe what he was saying, wanted to coax him to say what she really wanted to hear. He didn't. So maybe she had to go so that she could decide what she wanted to do.

Flack's been witness to Danny's difficult side, but he's never really experienced it himself.

Oh, I don't think that's the case at all. Danny stormed out on Flack in that diner in "On the Job" when Flack was doing his best to try to calm and cajole Danny into being reasonable. And I think Flack got to deal with Danny's difficult side full force in "All in the Family" when Danny was dodging his calls and leaving him in the alley after Flack had chased him all over town. Danny capitulated in the end... in the sulkiest, most childish way possible. So I don't think it's true that Flack has never dealt with Danny's difficult side firsthand--he has. But he's also experienced the trusting side of Danny more than anyone else, and seems to be better than anyone at actually getting through to Danny.

Recognizing that Danny doesn't believe anyone cares isn't quite the same thing as Flack repeatedly realizing that Danny doesn't believe he cares; which I think is what Lindsay and to a lesser extent, Mac, have gone through. Even in On the Job, Danny was griping about feeling very alone and no one having his back - but he didn't seem to include Flack among "no one", and Flack never once seemed to assume that Danny didn't believe he was behind him. He was just telling Danny that he had to trust Mac to be there for him - it didn't even occur to him that Danny might be speaking of him too. And it didn't, because Danny wasn't.

No, but it wasn't Mac Danny stormed out on in the diner. Danny actually got so upset that he walked out on Flack, leaving the guy sitting alone with the bill still to come. :lol: While Danny may or may not have been including Flack in the no one's got my back bit--I tend to agree with you that Danny wasn't directly including him in it, though saying it to Flack repeatedly suggest Danny was hoping Flack would say, "I've got your back, Danny." Danny pretty much said as much to Flack, but I think Flack didn't quite get that. Maybe if he had and said that--because he obviously did have Danny's back--Danny might have calmed down a bit.

True, there's no telling what would've happened if Lindsay had directly reached out more. It's really just that series of things that make me think it wouldn't have gone over much better than any of Lindsay's other efforts; it was almost pointed, how specifically he seemed to not want to reveal anything to her. It's not unreasonable to expect his girlfriend to make an effort, but I also think it's rather necessary to give even a small indication that her effort would be welcome. Even Flack - I definitely agree he's always reaching out to Danny, but more often than not, Danny is always giving Flack an opening. He was the one to ask Flack if he'd heard about Aiden's death in "Heroes", thus opening the Chicken Parm conversation. Heck, even in "On the Job", it was Danny waiting at the diner for Flack to arrive - kind of suggesting that he, and not Flack, set the meeting.

I think he did, but that's what Danny does... he gives a little opening, and expects someone to make a big move. Flack knew what Aiden's death meant to Danny and that's why he was at the lab. Danny knew that Flack was there because of him, so he opened the door a little and Flack came in. It's their routine. Danny likes to be drawn out a little, to feel like the person he's talking to cares about what he has to say. I think if Lindsay had once--just once!--tried to turn the conversation to Ruben after "Child's Play," Danny might have opened up to her, too.

True, I guess the crisis might've played a big part in his not answering his phone - although this has never made sense to me, even given Danny's reluctance to let Lindsay in on his grief. You'd think it'd just make sense to call someone at the lab, ask them to track Rikki's cell phone; he'd've found her that much faster. And if there was anyone at the lab he could've gotten to do it without getting in trouble, it would've been Lindsay; but that would involve letting her in on what was going on.

I don't think Danny was thinking rationally at that point, and I think he was desperate not to involve anyone else in what he no doubt viewed as his own mess up. He tried to send Flack away when Flack showed up. I don't think Danny expects others to clean up his messes--unlike Lindsay, who seems to constantly expect her co-workers to pick up her slack.

And with the venting...the only time someone that wasn't Flack did say something to him (Angell), he kind of shut down. Danny rarely expects people to say something to him to get him to talk - this venting thing happens all the time. He was able to vent to Lindsay a little in "Run Silent", when it was Louie on the verge of death. Why not now?

He didn't shut down with Angell--he offered up a detail and she didn't pursue it.

Two parts--of course! Part Two coming up next...

 

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He might've taken it that way initially, but actions do speak louder than words - and Lindsay did everything after that episode to show him that she thought he'd make a good father. (You just don't let anyone read a comic book over your stomach even on a good day, let alone while you're working.) Why would the words stick, and the actions not stick?

She wanted him involved if he wanted to be--that doesn't say she thinks he'll make a good father. It just means she's not totally shutting him out--she could still change her mind at any time.

I can see that, but saying the same thing he said to Hawkes "don't worry about it" would've worked just as well as "Stop goofing off", without coming off so brusquely.

They both felt like bashfulness to me, like he didn't want to be the center of attention. Danny really just doesn't know what to do with positive reinforcement at all, even though I notice people go out of their way to try to give it to him and build him up.

"Pretend you never saw me" doesn't say "get lost" so much as it says that Danny didn't actually expect Flack to want to get involved.

This is Flack--with anyone else, I'd agree, but I think Danny sort of realizes just how much Flack cares about him.

When Flack demanded half the list, Danny gave it up without another thought. That might've been Flack's attitude, but Danny's been stubborn to domineering people in the past, too - certainly, he put up more of a fight with Mac in On the Job and Crime and Misdemeanour, and Mac was actually angry with him.

Danny felt defensive in those situations--Mac was being critical of him. Flack didn't go off on Danny, asking him how he could be so stupid to let Rikki get a hold of his gun or anything like that--he pushed to help, not to criticize. Big difference.

I think Danny easily lets Flack in, in a way he doesn't with others.

I'd agree with that, because I think Flack has proved himself to Danny again and again. It takes a lot to get through Danny's walls, because they're nowhere near as obvious as Lindsay's. I don't think it's as easy for Danny as it is natural--Flack is the guy who always comes through for him, who's always there in a crisis. Danny didn't call Mac or Lindsay in "Snow Day"--he called Flack. He knows there's one person who will drop everything for him, who he can really, really count on, who makes him feel safe--and that's Flack.

If he'd tried even a tenth as hard as he tried in "Crime and Misdemeanor" or RSRD or "On the Job", Lindsay would've been hearing his side of things way back in "RND". That's still really why I think he didn't have much else to say, except what he said in PF.

I think he was too tired and downtrodden to try, really. He already had so much guilt heaped on him over Ruben, and now here was more. By PF, he was just trying to appease her, not defend himself.

Well yeah, but there really is a difference between spending a day chasing someone around town, and giving up after (is it safe to assume it was about 5 months? Since "Child's Play" aired in December, and "RND" in April?)...either way, quite a while.

Yeah, but Lindsay never really tried. What was there to give up on? Waiting for him to come to her, I guess. But that's not really fair.

Oh yes, I agree with that; Danny needed to hear it to do the right thing. But I think the yelling came out harshly, and would've sounded harsh to Danny, and that was my original point. Flack did it out of concern, but when it's necessary he's capable of being hard on Danny regardless of whether he's grieving or not.

He was doing it to save Danny from making a mistake, though. And as soon as Danny did what needed to be done, Flack chased after Danny to make sure Danny knew exactly why he'd been harsh.

That's why Lindsay wouldn't be able to pull the "yes-no-yes-no" thing on him. The "yes-no" isn't the defining aspect of her character - she pulls it on Danny half because he allows it, and half because he feeds it (most of the time Lindsay is directly reacting to something she's interpreting from Danny's behaviour). If Lindsay were to show Flack she was interested, Flack wouldn't react just for the sake of reacting. And if Lindsay were to say no, it would be no definitively - he wouldn't give her the time of day again. That right there makes Flack/Lindsay worlds healthier than D/L already.

Right, but that's where they'd be over before it even started. She'd pull the crap on Flack. While I do think Danny's behavior and insecurities play into how she treats him, it's not all his fault. Lindsay has been bratty with a lot of people--Stella, Adam, even Hawkes a little bit. So I can't see Flack ever getting to the point of being interested in her, and even if he did, she'd pull her crap and he'd be out.

It's what I mean by someone calling her on her crap. It would really have to be her who would have to work for the relationship. Flack isn't nearly as touchy as I think he could be given her treatment of Danny, and I'm really not buying that he secretly resents her. But he is the only character we've never really seen indulge her. Like you said, Mac coddles, Stella's really forgiving, Danny and Adam are doormats, even Hawkes lets her leave him to process crime scenes on his own. Flack calls her on stuff. I really loved his "Did you call him?" line in "AitF" when Lindsay came to him about Danny. It's the closest anyone came to calling her on what we've been arguing about this entire thread - how bad she is with making the effort to reach out. He enjoys needling her, and seeing her annoyed/unsettled (even that Sam moment in "Dead Inside" made it seem like he was really enjoying how horrified Lindsay was at the thought of them together); I think their snarky bantering is in fun, but it's really one of the only things keeping Lindsay on her toes right now. She knows that if Flack ever could find a way to get one over on her, he would totally do it.

I do agree that he keeps her on her toes and doesn't let her get away with crap, which is one of the reasons I can't ever see him interested in her. I think he sees through her brattiness to some degree and doesn't put up with it. The bantering is fun--I still see a little rivalry there, maybe over being the best joker (though sorry, Flack takes that cake :lol or Danny. Resents might be too strong a word, but there seems to be an undercurrent of rivalry there.

It's been a while since I've seen it, but didn't he kind of laugh at the preposterousness of what Sam said about them being together in "Dead Inside"?

I know you don't see anything in Lindsay that would attract Flack, or any guy. I do We may have to agree to disagree on this, but I have to say that on my list of favourite things about Lindsay, it feels like Flack has registered more of them than Danny ever has.

I definitely think you see more positive traits in her than I do, though you've opened my eyes in a lot of ways to viewing some of her mannerisms and habits more sympathetically than I ever have before! When I re-watched the RND speech a few weeks ago, I could see it from her side a bit more, even if I still put much more of the blame on her shoulders than Danny's. But you make some great points about her.

Danny's an emotional livewire, and Flack's 'id', but I completely disagree that Flack isn't open enough with his emotions and needs to be drawn out more. Most people don't think with their id. Flack is on the stoic side, but he feels deeply: his concern for Stella in "All Access" was extremely apparent and shown in a healthy way (as opposed to Lindsay's), as was his glee over that motorcycle in S1's finale, and over reuniting with his mentor Officer Moran (again, S1); and his torment over shooting that mob guy in "Snow Day", and over Officer Truby. He shows his feelings healthily, without needing to bleed them all over the floor, so to speak. That's why I think he's what Lindsay wants to be.

Yeah, exactly--that's what I was going for. Flack's not gushy. He's not angsty and whiny and needy the way Danny is. He deals with things in a very healthy way, and he's got a good read on people. Take "All Access"--with the way he coddles and protects Danny, you'd have expected him to be a bit overbearing and protective of Stella. But Stella's not Danny--she's much stronger. He knew how to be respectfully concerned without treating her like a fragile flower, the way he treats Danny.

I totally see why Danny's otherness and passion draws both Flack and Lindsay - but for Lindsay anyway (imo), getting involved with Danny was not one of her smartest moves. She has no business being in a relationship with a character like Danny. He's unbelievably damaged; which would be fine, except that she's unbelievably damaged too, in the exact way that would make it impossible for her to handle Danny even if he was healthy. I'd think it was intentional, only I don't give TPTB that much credit. He's so emotional that she doesn't seem to believe it half the time, let alone know what to do with it. I view her getting involved with him as Lindsay being stupid, because she seems to realize most of this, a lot of the time.

Yeah, agreed--I think it's one of those cases of not being able to help who you love. Hard to blame her for that, but if she's going to be involved with him I think she has to learn to make the same kind of allowances for his damage that he makes for hers (like giving her her space).

Flack would fare better largely because he's healthy. But then, I'd have to see Flack put up with things that make Danny's damage hard to deal with for other people, to be sure (the constant positive reinforcement that never goes through, even the mixed signals of "is he attracted? Or is he just responding because he's damaged?"). For Flack, Danny tends to make things...not easy, but he's never once given Flack the impression that it's specifically him he doesn't trust. But being entirely fair, if Flack as a healthy person can put up with Danny's damage the hard way, I'm not seeing why he can't do the same with Lindsay.

I do sometimes kind of wonder why Flack puts up with Danny the way he does--Danny is a lot of work, and sometimes you've got to wonder what Flack gets out of it. And Flack really seem to adore Danny--he laughs at his dumb jokes, goes out of his way to spend time with him, makes up nicknames for him. Maybe Flack is drawn to damaged people. :lol: But I think part of the appeal for Flack with regards to Danny is that Danny lets him take care of and rescue him. Lindsay likes to push people away and do things on her own. That works with Danny, because he's not really looking to rescue anyone. He wants to be a part of her life and show her he cares, but he doesn't have the white knight thing Flack has going on. But then, Flack's romantic relationships don't really seem to be about that. He obviously likes to impress the women he's with, but he's on equal footing with them. I'm digressing... I guess I just don't see him being fond enough of Lindsay to want to put up with her BS. Whereas he obviously thinks the world of Danny.

Well, someone bothered. Other than Danny, I mean - wasn't she on a date in Risk before she showed up at the crime scene? I've always seen her as pretty enough - she's not conventionally lovely, like Angell or even Stella, but I think she's "cute-girl-next-door" pretty. It's very subjective. But to be honest, I'm not sure D/L as a pairing would've even flown past its first season if Lindsay was plain, no matter how many plain-janes wanted to over-identify with her. Especially since Danny was established so strongly as a character before Lindsay even showed up.

Yeah, and the net probably wanted an accessible way into his pants. Hook him up with someone like Maka or Angell, and it makes sense but the girls sitting at home watching and swooning over him can't relate. Hook him up with Lindsay and "OMG he's the hot guy who goes for the average girl!" It's Pride & Prejudice, it's Bridget Jones's Diary. It doesn't matter if you're poor/overweight/not that pretty... you can still bag the hottie. That's a big part of the appeal of DL for many IMO. Not all, of course.

From what I've seen, fans tend to protest loudly enough for a show to respond if their favourite hot character is hooking up with someone they see as "not in his league" (Callie on Grey's Anatomy is gorgeous, imo, but it's an unconventional beauty that doesn't seem to appeal to many; and I'm not sure it's a coincidence that she was shafted from first George, and then Mark Sloane).

It's definitely subjective. GA is a soaper--everyone bounces from everyone else (except for Meredith and Derek--I know you're not a fan of the pair, but it's kind of cool to see them have some real longevity). And neither George nor Mark is the central hottie of the show.

Oh definitely, Flack is the classically handsome one. :hugegrin: Which I normally do find appealing, but Danny's got that disheveled charm going - and when put together with Flack, for me it's Danny who wins out. Subjective again, I know.

Oh, totally. Flack's the guy you opens doors for you and takes you on candlelit rooftop dates. Flack you can take home to meet the folks. Whereas Danny--Danny's made for getting naked and enjoying. He's incredibly sexy and sexual, without--so, so refreshingly--being a dirty skeezball. I love that Danny doesn't bust out lines on girls and if he flirts, it's cute or suggestive rather than actually dirty.

[Slightly OT, but I feel compelled to mention it here: I saw this thing on Sidereel.com, where they'd rated the 50 hottest men on TV; Flack came in number 18, and Danny was either number 7 or 9, I forget (I was distracted by how proud I was that they'd made the list, because it was including characters from teen-oriented shows too :lol.]

Awww, nice to see the boys rank so highly!

 

[Maya316]

Jumping back in after a long absence! Sorry about that--it's been a busy week.

LOL, no problem! Just, yay, so glad you're back!:lol:

Oh, it's absolutely a strategy to go at your opponent aggressively and throw them off balance. I think she expects people to back off in the face of that hostility, and Danny certainly does. Stella didn't, but then Lindsay used her other technique, which is storming off. The hostility is something she's seen work for her in the past, so she rolls it out when she needs it. It works more than it doesn't, real

But it wasn't Lindsay who stormed away in Silent Night, it was Stella; and Lindsay seemed resigned to Stella's anger (because at that point in Silent Night, it seemed like Lindsay was in trouble). She certainly looked like she'd been expecting it, and if anything just seemed glad that Stella hadn't kept pressing the issue. That's what makes me think the hostility is more to get people to back off from asking too many questions, rather than getting them to do what she wants.

Well, she was there in a vest in "Snow Day" and of course in "Not What It Looks Like." I admit, I've always classed her absence from those situations alongside those of Hawkes and Adam--they're simply more lab guys. If anything it makes her look even more like a wimpy Mary Sue type, so I hope they're not going for a "Mac shields her from dangerous situations!" thing.

You're definitely right about Adam and Hawkes (and I forgot about Snow Day! Although I don't know if she showed up actually expecting to be shot then), but I think that's why the gun-thing stands out to me as more a specific fear of Lindsay's. Because in-story, both Adam and Hawkes have their reasons for not being called out to raids. Adam's a lab rat - it's not in his job description to be joining in shootouts. And Hawkes may have a gun and badge, but they mentioned in that Blue Flu episode that he's technically still a doctor, not a cop; so he probably wouldn't be called out to perform all the more-dangerous duties of a cop. Lindsay is so Mary-Sue, but in-story that doesn't really stand as an excuse. Unlike Hawkes, she's a full-fledged cop and CSI; unlike Adam, her job description isn't that of lab-rat, no matter how often she's confined to the lab. She has every obligation that the other full-fledged cops/CSIs have to be in those raids. So I think the reason we don't see her in raids as often as we do the others has to be because of gun/shooting fear.

It felt off to me, but Anna's emoting doesn't help--the pensive scrunch face always takes me out of things. But Lindsay going around acting so affected was just another example of her making something she was only tangentially involved in All About Her. Like she did in "All Access."

It was definitely weird that she was so affected, but I don't think her just being affected can be put down into her making things all about her. I mean, Stella and Hawkes and Danny, with the wall-punch; and Sid were just as affected, even though (except Stella), they all spoke to Angell maybe a handful of times. Heck, of all of them it was Mac who kind of made things all about him, with Dunbrook anyway - even though he only spoke to Angell a handful of times, too. It wasn't like Lindsay was demanding that anyone take notice of her pain, at least not anymore than the others were; it was just kind of there.

I'll agree about All Access, although I have to say the one time she did make it all about her in that episode, it seemed like she was running off because she realized she was making it all about her.

I suspect he took her brush-off in the lab--even if it was case-related--as a sign that she didn't want to talk to him then. Maybe he was trying to give her her space. And then when she initiated the talk in LWFM he assumed things were getting back to fine--because he's a guy and guys are dopey like that.

True I guess I can see him having tried to give her her space in RND, too; and then making the assumption in LWFM. Guys (not to generalize or anything, though).

But if she was clueless up to "Child's Play"--and really, she seemed to miss a lot of his putting his walls up (I hesitate to say pushing her away, because it didn't get that extreme), you'd think she'd realize that he was going through something terrible and she needed to push a little harder. He was joking with her in "Playing with Matches" and being friendly enough--I don't think he closed the door altogether. But she never even tried to go through it, save for one half-hearted attempt in "Child's Play" when he was literally losing it.

I definitely think Lindsay didn't see Danny's walls in early S4, although I wonder if she really couldn't see them or was just refusing to. She really should've pushed harder...but when I think of "Playing With Matches", I keep remembering the way Lindsay seemed almost sullen at the beginning of it (usually she's fine openly laughing even at Danny's lamer jokes, but in PWM she was only reluctantly smiling...like she did in PF). Contrasting that with Danny's jokiness in "PwM" always leaves me thinking that he knew she'd taken his shift, but she'd never gotten an explanation from him about why she had to. I'm still not seeing much way that Danny couldn't not know about her taking his shift unless he was purposely ignoring her, but if he did know, that really should've come as a sign that she wanted through the door.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that, though on some level he had to know that the love thing would rear its head again. Did he really think that she'd be content to be just friends and hanging out like usual with someone she was in love with? Or was he testing her to see if she really did love him? I think at that point Danny wasn't sure what he wanted, other than he didn't want her mad at him.

I don't think he was considering the love thing at all, in LWFM anyway, at least not from Lindsay's perspective. I think he knew it would have to come up again, but at that point he seemed to think it should serve as a catalyst for her deciding to spend time with him, rather than a deterrent given the circumstances (I think you're right, maybe it was some kind of a test: "if she really loves me, she'll be happy to spend time with me", although that really doesn't sound like he was reasonably considering her content/happiness in the least).

I don't think it was a refusal to answer--Danny gets to a point where he just shuts down when someone lays into him. This is a big part of what makes me think he was abused. He fights initially (like he did with the comment about her still being angry about lunch) but as soon as someone really goes after him, he just shuts down and takes it. He did the exact same thing with Mac in "On the Job." When Mac really chewed him out for going to IAB after Danny walked out of the IAB interview, Danny didn't say a single word. He just took it. Mac's anger, Lindsay's anger... it's the same thing. He just shuts down. You can practically see him getting the shit kicked out of him as a kid. There's a moment where he protests, but then he just gives up and shuts down. I think that's what happened in RND. By the time she got to that pause, it was too late--he was in shutdown mode.

See, I've definitely noticed the shutdown thing, but that's really what makes me think it shouldn't have already been at that point when Lindsay paused during the RND speech. I remember him shutting down with Mac in "On the Job", but Mac had already started in with the comparative "insults" ("I was told not to hire you", etc, etc). Lindsay hadn't even said anything remotely similar or insulting, until he didn't answer during the pause. What would've made him shut down at that point? The only thing he might've taken issue with was her tone. But in "Crime and Misdemeanour" when Mac was already visibly angry (and speaking in just as harsh a tone) with Danny for going on with the case against his orders, Danny snapped something back like "What, so it doesn't matter?", before going on to realize that he was out of line.

Maybe, but I kind of think not. And I suspect he got that feeling when he approached her and she didn't want to hear it. Fair enough about the case, but Danny probably took it more personally. And in PF, he had to fight to get her to hear what he wanted to say. She didn't want to hear it--she told him as much in the morgue.

I guess I can see how he might've taken the RND brush-off personally, given his sensitivity (although next to Stella, he was the main runner on the case; he of all people should've known how important it was). And yeah, in PF it wasn't cool how Lindsay left him with the assumption that she'd never want to talk things over with him, but she clearly didn't follow up on that threat - and said threat didn't seem to deter him from trying again.

I don't think that love thing is something can be forgotten though. I think Danny might have been testing her--did she really love him? I think the message he got eventually was "Yes--conditionally." That's why in season five we get all the "I can be the guy you want me to be" stuff. He's very aware that she doesn't want to deal with all his damage, that he needs to pack it away for them to be together. But I don't think he can do that.

I don't think it would've been forgotten, exactly. I mean, it seemed important to Danny to know for "a fact" that Lindsay loved him, but at most I think it would've just been unacknowledged, on Danny's part. At that point in LWFM, he didn't seem to see the love thing as something he was obligated to reciprocate. Which is fair and his prerogative, but then it can't really be surprising when he got the message that Lindsay wasn't willing to put herself through that kind of unncessary pain just to give him that sense of security/ease his guilty conscience. I don't know if Lindsay sent the message that she only loved him conditionally, or that she didn't want to deal with his damage. I really think there's a difference between loving someone no matter what they do, and loving someone no matter what they do to you.

And in S5, Lindsay actually seemed to be dangerously skirting that line, from the Blue Flu fiasco to the way she said yes to his second proposal. He was saying all the right things, so I think she was kind of hoping he did feel that way about her; but at the same time, it's hard to imagine she didn't know what was driving the proposal on some level. She did pause for quite a long time before finally saying yes; and I have to think that her even saying yes in the first place was partly about catering to his insecurity that she'd leave him (there really wasn't much that changed between "The Triangle" and "Green Piece", except for the fact that she was suddenly leaving for Montana).

Well, fair enough though... she turned down his proposal with no explanation! He was a lot nicer than someone else would have been. And again, I think the baby was driving him. In RND, he didn't know what he wanted, so it was fine to let her walk away. Not once he'd realized how much he wanted that baby, though.

True, it may have been about not knowing exactly what he wanted in RND. But if he felt that whatever he had to say could wait, then I don't think it was pressing on him that heavily...and he didn't even end up saying it later (if it was originally different from what he said in PF).

Possibly! I just remember when he was appeasing her that her voice got much softer than it usually is--there's usually such a hardness about her, but there wasn't when she said the "hard to love" line. He was capitulating, trying to appease her, and she was getting what she wanted--sort of. I think she wanted to believe what he was saying, wanted to coax him to say what she really wanted to hear. He didn't. So maybe she had to go so that she could decide what she wanted to do.

I don't know, I just remember her voice being a lot more vulnerable than usual during that "I tried to give you your space" thing. And so the words that came after really stuck with me. I do think she wanted to believe what he was saying (she usually does), but maybe knew on some level that he was saying them only to appease her. With that "hard to love" line, she really did seem to be trying to get him to say something similar.

Oh, I don't think that's the case at all. Danny stormed out on Flack in that diner in "On the Job" when Flack was doing his best to try to calm and cajole Danny into being reasonable. And I think Flack got to deal with Danny's difficult side full force in "All in the Family" when Danny was dodging his calls and leaving him in the alley after Flack had chased him all over town. Danny capitulated in the end... in the sulkiest, most childish way possible. So I don't think it's true that Flack has never dealt with Danny's difficult side firsthand--he has. But he's also experienced the trusting side of Danny more than anyone else, and seems to be better than anyone at actually getting through to Danny.

Oh yeah, I don't disagree it would be hard to deal with Danny's difficult tendencies (being ditched in a diner, chasing him around town). But I really think it helps a great deal to know that the reason he's being difficult isn't personal to you specifically. That's something that Flack has, that none of the others have, and I think that's very important. It really doesn't seem like it's Danny's less-personal difficulties that people have a problem with; most of the time, people seem very willing to put up with them. Aiden didn't think much of following Danny on that case in "Crime and Misdemeanour", even though she could just as easily have gotten into trouble like he did. And both she and Mac were more than willing to drop everything to save him from trouble in "On the Job". Mac's issue was never what he had to do to save Danny in "On the Job", it was about Danny not trusting him to do it. He certainly didn't seem to mind dropping literally his entire day to save Danny in "Run Silent". Even Lindsay didn't think twice about taking his shift in "AitF", although Mac seemed to know perfectly well she was covering for Danny, and she knew he knew. People put up with Danny's difficult side all the time without a thought, because they care. What gets to them is that Danny doesn't trust them even as they're doing it; and that's a side of things Flack hasn't ever experienced.

No, but it wasn't Mac Danny stormed out on in the diner. Danny actually got so upset that he walked out on Flack, leaving the guy sitting alone with the bill still to come. :lol: While Danny may or may not have been including Flack in the no one's got my back bit--I tend to agree with you that Danny wasn't directly including him in it, though saying it to Flack repeatedly suggest Danny was hoping Flack would say, "I've got your back, Danny." Danny pretty much said as much to Flack, but I think Flack didn't quite get that. Maybe if he had and said that--because he obviously did have Danny's back--Danny might have calmed down a bit.

I imagine knowing that Danny wasn't storming out of the diner because he was mad at him, made it much easier for Flack to deal with the diner thing. I can't imagine anyone else who cares about Danny seriously holding the diner thing against him; I would certainly find it forgivable of a friend if they ditched me because they were mad at the world in general, not mad at me specifically. I agree it might've helped if Flack specifically told Danny that he was there for him...but honestly, to me it just seemed like such a "taken as a given" issue for them that I wasn't really surprised neither of them said it out loud.

I think he did, but that's what Danny does... he gives a little opening, and expects someone to make a big move. Flack knew what Aiden's death meant to Danny and that's why he was at the lab. Danny knew that Flack was there because of him, so he opened the door a little and Flack came in. It's their routine. Danny likes to be drawn out a little, to feel like the person he's talking to cares about what he has to say. I think if Lindsay had once--just once!--tried to turn the conversation to Ruben after "Child's Play," Danny might have opened up to her, too.

But Flack comes into the lab all the time, and not just to visit with Danny specifically. From Season 1 (when he came with Aiden to get trace results in "Tri-Borough") to Season 3 (he was in the lab with Stella and Hawkes when Lindsay came in with her demonstration) to Season 5 (I don't know which episode, but he and Adam both were in Stella's office). In "Heroes", Danny had no real reason to assume he was in the lab for him specifically, especially since they started going on about the case shortly after the Aiden talk. Danny just started spilling as soon as Flack came in through the door. I don't know how much difference it would have made had Lindsay turned the conversation to Ruben, because I find it hard to believe Lindsay absolutely would not have said anything after "AitF". But if Danny had wanted to talk, I think he really would've opened the communication line first because that's what he usually does.

I don't think Danny was thinking rationally at that point, and I think he was desperate not to involve anyone else in what he no doubt viewed as his own mess up. He tried to send Flack away when Flack showed up. I don't think Danny expects others to clean up his messes--unlike Lindsay, who seems to constantly expect her co-workers to pick up her slack.

Not sure about this...the number of times coworkers have cleaned up Danny's messes certainly exceeds the number of times they've cleaned up Lindsay's. Although yeah, Danny doesn't usually expect them to do it, and he probably wasn't thinking rationally in AitF.

Part 2 in a sec! :lol:

 

[Maya316]

LOL, and here we go!

She wanted him involved if he wanted to be--that doesn't say she thinks he'll make a good father. It just means she's not totally shutting him out--she could still change her mind at any time.

I really think the comic-book thing was more than just letting him be involved (I mean, she could let him be involved at home, while not on the clock). But it really seems like both actions and words don't work - because Lindsay has specifically indicated that she thinks he'd be a great father; and heck, in Green Piece she actually told him that it wasn't about him being the "wrong guy". There's not really much that's getting through, he just doesn't seem to be listening.

Danny felt defensive in those situations--Mac was being critical of him. Flack didn't go off on Danny, asking him how he could be so stupid to let Rikki get a hold of his gun or anything like that--he pushed to help, not to criticize. Big difference.

I agree with this, but Danny's actually brushed people off when they've been pushing to help, too (Aiden in S1 finale).

I'd agree with that, because I think Flack has proved himself to Danny again and again. It takes a lot to get through Danny's walls, because they're nowhere near as obvious as Lindsay's. I don't think it's as easy for Danny as it is natural--Flack is the guy who always comes through for him, who's always there in a crisis. Danny didn't call Mac or Lindsay in "Snow Day"--he called Flack. He knows there's one person who will drop everything for him, who he can really, really count on, who makes him feel safe--and that's Flack.

See, I totally agree with this. I think it does take a lot to get through Danny's walls, and I think few people have ever actually made it past them (Flack, and possibly Aiden). That does mean, though, that things tend to be easier for those few than they are for those who haven't really made it past the wall. And it probably indicates that it takes a long time to get past those walls - I mean, even in S1 both Aiden and Flack seemed like they'd been tight with Danny for years. We have no clue if there was a time when Danny made things as hard for Flack as he makes them for Mac/Lindsay/Louie/etc.

Yeah, but Lindsay never really tried. What was there to give up on? Waiting for him to come to her, I guess. But that's not really fair.

Yeah, it's not really fair to spend that long just waiting - she should've pushed harder, but at the same time, it's five months (possibly). It's strange that in five months, he didn't once see the need to vent to her, or let her in on anything.

He was doing it to save Danny from making a mistake, though. And as soon as Danny did what needed to be done, Flack chased after Danny to make sure Danny knew exactly why he'd been harsh.

True, that letting him know why the harshness was necessary did seem to be pretty important; it's one of my favourite things about Flack. He rarely just reacts and takes things out on people, without letting them know why he's reacting/taking things harshly on them.

Right, but that's where they'd be over before it even started. She'd pull the crap on Flack. While I do think Danny's behavior and insecurities play into how she treats him, it's not all his fault. Lindsay has been bratty with a lot of people--Stella, Adam, even Hawkes a little bit. So I can't see Flack ever getting to the point of being interested in her, and even if he did, she'd pull her crap and he'd be out.

That's kind of where it gets really "romanticizing/shippy" for me :lol: Because I think that if Flack did start to mean a lot to Lindsay, she would stop with the brattiness, or with the "yes-no" thing, because she knows Flack wouldn't stick around if she were to pull away. I know it's the height of "shippiness" to be all "she can change for him!1" but I don't even think I'm really being that off-base with this assumption. She already seems to know on some level that Flack's the only one who wouldn't put up with her brattiness, and if she ever did fall for him I can't imagine this fact suddenly slipping her mind.

And even with Danny - I know the "yes-no" thing isn't all his fault, but I do think a bit of the reason Lindsay hasn't yet changed that much is because she doesn't seem to get the feeling that she really needs to with Danny. She really didn't expect him to stick around after she said no the first time (because she seemed almost resigned in "Love Run Cold", and was surprised when he walked into the courtroom in Montana), but when he did she assumed (not unreasonably) it meant that things were fine with them. And after she got burned in S4 she seemed to feel a need to change things. Half the reason I'm convinced Lindsay really was mad at herself for the S4-debacle is because in S5 she was making an extra effort to be there for him, that wasn't there in S4. So she seems to feel the need to change bad things with herself when it becomes obvious they're influencing her relationships. I could easily see something similar happening with Flack. That's why the "yes-no" wouldn't be possible to pull on him - if she knew that "no" meant "no forever", and she really did care about Flack, I can't see her pulling it anyway.

I do agree that he keeps her on her toes and doesn't let her get away with crap, which is one of the reasons I can't ever see him interested in her. I think he sees through her brattiness to some degree and doesn't put up with it. The bantering is fun--I still see a little rivalry there, maybe over being the best joker (though sorry, Flack takes that cake :lol or Danny. Resents might be too strong a word, but there seems to be an undercurrent of rivalry there.

I don't know - if she ever did fall for Flack, I can see her going after him and making specific efforts to impress him, like she did with Danny. It's less certain whether Flack would fall for those efforts, but if one of them was the specific effort to curb the brattiness, I don't see how Flack wouldn't pick up on that, even if only to wonder what's causing it. The bantering is fun, and yeah...I guess I can see friendly-rivalry there, at most I mean, I do think they both enjoy unsettling each other, may even find it funny when the other is annoyed/pissed. But I don't think either would enjoy seeing the other genuinely upset (even in "Dead Inside" Lindsay seemed more awkward-worried than pleased about Flack's anger with Sam; and even in AitF when they were pretty on edge, Flack did seem to take Lindsay's worry into consideration). Though yes, Flack so takes the cake! Lindsay comes in second to him, at least when it comes to intentional wittiness. As far as plain hilarity goes, Danny wins hands down over both, for me :lol:.

It's been a while since I've seen it, but didn't he kind of laugh at the preposterousness of what Sam said about them being together in "Dead Inside"?

He totally thought it was preposterous, but he just kind of smirked and looked at Lindsay - she was the one all "Nuh-uh, we're coworkers". :lol:

I definitely think you see more positive traits in her than I do, though you've opened my eyes in a lot of ways to viewing some of her mannerisms and habits more sympathetically than I ever have before! When I re-watched the RND speech a few weeks ago, I could see it from her side a bit more, even if I still put much more of the blame on her shoulders than Danny's. But you make some great points about her.

LOL, awesome! :alienblush: :thumbsup: I'm really getting great insight into Danny too, especially in S4 - I kind of rewatched parts of S4 recently, and it occurred to me how much about Danny's behaviour just used to kind of go over my head. I mean, there are episodes that highlight his insecurity, but he's pretty cocky quite a few times, so I think that's what made me assume he couldn't be that insecure.

Yeah, exactly--that's what I was going for. Flack's not gushy. He's not angsty and whiny and needy the way Danny is. He deals with things in a very healthy way, and he's got a good read on people. Take "All Access"--with the way he coddles and protects Danny, you'd have expected him to be a bit overbearing and protective of Stella. But Stella's not Danny--she's much stronger. He knew how to be respectfully concerned without treating her like a fragile flower, the way he treats Danny.

Yes! He seems to know just how to treat certain people and how to approach them. He knows when not to push (like with Stella in "All Access"), but at the same time he's one for the over-the-top gestures just as much as Danny is, when he feels they're needed (like the way he flew out to Chicago for Mac in "Thing about Heroes").

Yeah, agreed--I think it's one of those cases of not being able to help who you love. Hard to blame her for that, but if she's going to be involved with him I think she has to learn to make the same kind of allowances for his damage that he makes for hers (like giving her her space).

Very true. She definitely has to learn to make those allowances; it's things like this, and the way it's taken almost five years for her to even make those marginal changes she has when it comes to Danny or anyone else, that make me think she hasn't ever really been in a position where she had to make allowances for another's behaviour. I hesitate to say she's never been in a long-term relationship - because we have no way of knowing that for sure - but that could explain why she initially just seemed to be looking for a fling with Danny. I can't imagine behaviour like hers would've cut it in any serious relationship. I don't think it necessarily means that most people were just fine with her the way she was. I think it means more that for a very long time, she hasn't been close enough to anyone for them to be affected by the way she treats them.

I do sometimes kind of wonder why Flack puts up with Danny the way he does--Danny is a lot of work, and sometimes you've got to wonder what Flack gets out of it. And Flack really seem to adore Danny--he laughs at his dumb jokes, goes out of his way to spend time with him, makes up nicknames for him. Maybe Flack is drawn to damaged people. :lol: But I think part of the appeal for Flack with regards to Danny is that Danny lets him take care of and rescue him. Lindsay likes to push people away and do things on her own. That works with Danny, because he's not really looking to rescue anyone. He wants to be a part of her life and show her he cares, but he doesn't have the white knight thing Flack has going on. But then, Flack's romantic relationships don't really seem to be about that. He obviously likes to impress the women he's with, but he's on equal footing with them. I'm digressing... I guess I just don't see him being fond enough of Lindsay to want to put up with her BS. Whereas he obviously thinks the world of Danny.

That's a really good point about Flack's possible hero complex. I mean, I've always had a favourite theory on how it may have been Flack who got Danny into law enforcement after his baseball chances were ruined (at least, until in S5 it was revealed that Danny apparently came from a family of cops ). I think a huge part of Danny's draw might just be Danny himself - I mean, Lindsay laughs at Danny's lamer jokes and makes excuses for spending time with him, and to a lesser extent so do Mac and Stella (with the jokes, anyway). But yeah, I do agree that fondness really seems to be a big reason for why Flack puts up with Danny. On the other hand, fondness grows all the time between people...I agree he doesn't seem to be at that point with Lindsay, which is why I think if she were to fall for him any time soon she'd totally have to be the one to do all the work.

Yeah, and the net probably wanted an accessible way into his pants. Hook him up with someone like Maka or Angell, and it makes sense but the girls sitting at home watching and swooning over him can't relate. Hook him up with Lindsay and "OMG he's the hot guy who goes for the average girl!" It's Pride & Prejudice, it's Bridget Jones's Diary. It doesn't matter if you're poor/overweight/not that pretty... you can still bag the hottie. That's a big part of the appeal of DL for many IMO. Not all, of course.

True, but what about all the people watching who do look like Maka or Angell, let alone the DL fans who do? I can see how DL would have the "Bridget Jones" appeal, especially since they specifically seem to play on that "cute-but-average-girl-next-door" effect with Lindsay/Belknap on CSI: NY. But NY isn't a book or movie where it's clear the hot guy would be hooking up with the plain girl; it's an ongoing TV show where for almost two seasons, Danny was for the most part a free agent (it's pretty hard to tell that D and L are supposed to be a thing unless you watch S2 from the beginning). I think we'd be hearing a lot of complaints still if Lindsay didn't at least look like she could be in Danny's league.

Additionally, I'm iffy about how much that DL appeal is solely about hot guy/plain girl even for DL fans, because I do think the aesthetics play an almost-ridiculous part in the examples you mentioned. In Pride and Prejudice, though Elizabeth was poor (which gave her the "ordinary" girl gimmick) it was very clear that she was supposed to be pretty, which I think is more of the appeal for a lot of P&P fans. I don't think it would've been enough for just Darcy to fall for her, a significant part of the appeal was that Wickham (and Cleaver, for Bridget Jones) were also attracted. In Twilight you see it too - entire chapters of that series are devoted to how Jacob/half the guys at school are unrealistically falling all over themselves because of Bella, despite also trying to sell Bella as an "ordinary girl". It's not enough for just Edward Cullen to be seeing her as pretty, others have to also. You also mentioned in the "WLMG" thread that DL fans tend to mention that "Lindsay should make Danny jealous" - but it's almost pointed how we've never really seen Lindsay react to any other guy that way, or vice versa. Yet DL still holds that appeal, with people somehow thinking that Lindsay would be able to attract another guy if she wanted to. That's why I think even DL fans aren't really seeing Lindsay as a "plain Jane", though they may see her as more ordinary than the other women on the show. I just don't think DL would fly if Lindsay didn't have some level of prettiness.

Oh, totally. Flack's the guy you opens doors for you and takes you on candlelit rooftop dates. Flack you can take home to meet the folks. Whereas Danny--Danny's made for getting naked and enjoying. He's incredibly sexy and sexual, without--so, so refreshingly--being a dirty skeezball. I love that Danny doesn't bust out lines on girls and if he flirts, it's cute or suggestive rather than actually dirty.

Exactly! Of the two of them, Danny is so not the guy I'd usually be attracted to, but what makes him utterly charming is that he's got the sex appeal without having the skeezy undertone. That's really original - even GA's Mark Sloane, for all his hidden depths, doesn't manage to pull that off So I think that is a huge draw for a lot of fans.

Awww, nice to see the boys rank so highly!

They beat out some of the guys on One Tree Hill :guffaw: I am still ridiculously proud!

 

[Top41]

Jumping back in! Another busy week!

But it wasn't Lindsay who stormed away in Silent Night, it was Stella; and Lindsay seemed resigned to Stella's anger (because at that point in Silent Night, it seemed like Lindsay was in trouble). She certainly looked like she'd been expecting it, and if anything just seemed glad that Stella hadn't kept pressing the issue. That's what makes me think the hostility is more to get people to back off from asking too many questions, rather than getting them to do what she wants.

Back off and apparently not hold her accountable, which is what people seem to do. I think she knows if she comes at someone with hostility, it will send them backpedaling. It always seems to work with Danny. Even Stella, who got angry back, didn't actually do anything or really reprimand her.

You're definitely right about Adam and Hawkes (and I forgot about Snow Day! Although I don't know if she showed up actually expecting to be shot then), but I think that's why the gun-thing stands out to me as more a specific fear of Lindsay's. Because in-story, both Adam and Hawkes have their reasons for not being called out to raids. Adam's a lab rat - it's not in his job description to be joining in shootouts. And Hawkes may have a gun and badge, but they mentioned in that Blue Flu episode that he's technically still a doctor, not a cop; so he probably wouldn't be called out to perform all the more-dangerous duties of a cop. Lindsay is so Mary-Sue, but in-story that doesn't really stand as an excuse. Unlike Hawkes, she's a full-fledged cop and CSI; unlike Adam, her job description isn't that of lab-rat, no matter how often she's confined to the lab. She has every obligation that the other full-fledged cops/CSIs have to be in those raids. So I think the reason we don't see her in raids as often as we do the others has to be because of gun/shooting fear.

I guess I just don't see a fear of guns from her. I can't see her volunteering in "Not What It Looks Like" if she had an actual fear of guns. She has no problem bailing if a situation makes her uncomfortable, so I just can't see her putting herself out for someone else if it really, really was a big fear of hers. I mean, this is the woman who couldn't reach out to her boyfriend when he was hurting after the loss of a child because she's "not good at this kind of thing." I really can't see her putting herself out for strangers in that way if she had an actual fear of guns. We've also never seen that when she's handled guns--whether it was proudly displaying that shotgun in "Bad Beat" or firing the one in season four, I've never seen an ounce of trepidation in her behavior around guns. Maybe that's something Belknap's not conveying... but I just don't see it. If Mac is coddling her by keeping her away from dangerous situation that's one thing, but in Lindsay's reactions, I don't see anything that indicates she has a fear of guns.

It was definitely weird that she was so affected, but I don't think her just being affected can be put down into her making things all about her. I mean, Stella and Hawkes and Danny, with the wall-punch; and Sid were just as affected, even though (except Stella), they all spoke to Angell maybe a handful of times.

Danny's wall punch I totally give you--that annoyed me to no end. Danny can be just as self-involved as Lindsay, though it isn't as obvious nor as grating because he also can be very caring and giving, whereas Lindsay isn't so much. I don't remember any off reactions from Stella and Hawkes, but Sid I recall trying to comfort Flack.

Heck, of all of them it was Mac who kind of made things all about him, with Dunbrook anyway - even though he only spoke to Angell a handful of times, too. It wasn't like Lindsay was demanding that anyone take notice of her pain, at least not anymore than the others were; it was just kind of there.

Oh Mac is just as bad as Lindsay about making it All About Him! After her, he's probably my least favorite character on the show (though he is miles ahead of her). At least when Mac makes it all about him, he's usually right (the 333 killer), but one of the things I like about Mac is that the writers actually show that sometimes he's out of line and just being an ass. Like at the end of season three, with the witchhunt over Clay Dobson's death. Mac was kind of an ass about it--and the show made it clear that he was indeed being kind of an ass. If Lindsay were held accountable in that way, she might be more tolerable, but she never is.

I'll agree about All Access, although I have to say the one time she did make it all about her in that episode, it seemed like she was running off because she realized she was making it all about her.

Running off only made it more all about her, because Danny had to stop an interrogation to chase after her. That interrogation was shot the moment she ran out--Danny could have tried to salvage it, but the person they were interrogating (can't remember who) knew he/she had gotten to the cops.

I definitely think Lindsay didn't see Danny's walls in early S4, although I wonder if she really couldn't see them or was just refusing to.

Interesting observation--which do you think it is?

She really should've pushed harder...but when I think of "Playing With Matches", I keep remembering the way Lindsay seemed almost sullen at the beginning of it (usually she's fine openly laughing even at Danny's lamer jokes, but in PWM she was only reluctantly smiling...like she did in PF). Contrasting that with Danny's jokiness in "PwM" always leaves me thinking that he knew she'd taken his shift, but she'd never gotten an explanation from him about why she had to. I'm still not seeing much way that Danny couldn't not know about her taking his shift unless he was purposely ignoring her, but if he did know, that really should've come as a sign that she wanted through the door.

Maybe... but maybe he was expecting her to make an effort to walk through it. Danny is a child... I think if he knew about her taking his shift, it did register with him, and like a kid he perked up a little bit. He was a bit happier in that episode than we'd seen him before (I re-watched the first few minutes recently, and some of their scenes) because he probably was thinking, "Hey, maybe she does really care." And then she made no effort to talk to him and he withdrew again. Not saying that was the right way to go about it, but Danny has his own issues and massive insecurity is one of them. It takes a lot for people to get him to believe they care about him. Certainly I think he put Mac through the wringer in season one as much if not more so than Lindsay in season four. Danny just doesn't really believe people care about him.

I don't think he was considering the love thing at all, in LWFM anyway, at least not from Lindsay's perspective. I think he knew it would have to come up again, but at that point he seemed to think it should serve as a catalyst for her deciding to spend time with him, rather than a deterrent given the circumstances (I think you're right, maybe it was some kind of a test: "if she really loves me, she'll be happy to spend time with me", although that really doesn't sound like he was reasonably considering her content/happiness in the least).

He probably wasn't at that point, but then she'd basically left him to grieve on his own--and then accused him of doing that despite her wanting to be there for him. Since he didn't see those signs of her wanting to be there for him--and to be fair, aside from "All in the Family" I don't think the audience saw them either--he was probably testing the waters. Did she really care, or was she just saying it?

See, I've definitely noticed the shutdown thing, but that's really what makes me think it shouldn't have already been at that point when Lindsay paused during the RND speech. I remember him shutting down with Mac in "On the Job", but Mac had already started in with the comparative "insults" ("I was told not to hire you", etc, etc). Lindsay hadn't even said anything remotely similar or insulting, until he didn't answer during the pause. What would've made him shut down at that point? The only thing he might've taken issue with was her tone. But in "Crime and Misdemeanour" when Mac was already visibly angry (and speaking in just as harsh a tone) with Danny for going on with the case against his orders, Danny snapped something back like "What, so it doesn't matter?", before going on to realize that he was out of line.

Danny's pattern is to protest once and then shutdown. He did with Lindsay, when he asked her if it was about lunch. That was Danny pushing back--his tone was hard and he was clearly bothered by her reaction. And then she laid into him. Granted, what she said after the pause was harsher than before, I still think her tone indicated how upset she was with him. And his expression screamed that he'd shut down to me. I don't even think he was looking at her--he'd turned away, kind of withdrawn into himself. He heard her--in the same way he always heard Mac--but he was totally retreating into his shell.

I guess I can see how he might've taken the RND brush-off personally, given his sensitivity (although next to Stella, he was the main runner on the case; he of all people should've known how important it was). And yeah, in PF it wasn't cool how Lindsay left him with the assumption that she'd never want to talk things over with him, but she clearly didn't follow up on that threat - and said threat didn't seem to deter him from trying again.

He tried again, but it almost seemed in resignation. I think up until that phone call, he was going to actually talk about things with her. Then he saw she wouldn't talk, so he offered her what he thought she did want--capitulation and sex. And the fact that she responded to that just reinforced his belief that he was right all along about what she wanted from him.

I don't think it would've been forgotten, exactly. I mean, it seemed important to Danny to know for "a fact" that Lindsay loved him, but at most I think it would've just been unacknowledged, on Danny's part. At that point in LWFM, he didn't seem to see the love thing as something he was obligated to reciprocate. Which is fair and his prerogative, but then it can't really be surprising when he got the message that Lindsay wasn't willing to put herself through that kind of unncessary pain just to give him that sense of security/ease his guilty conscience. I don't know if Lindsay sent the message that she only loved him conditionally, or that she didn't want to deal with his damage. I really think there's a difference between loving someone no matter what they do, and loving someone no matter what they do to you.

What did he do to her, though, other than withdraw from her? He didn't yell at her, he didn't treat her cruelly--all he did was forget her birthday and not confide in her. And yes, he slept with someone else--but at that point it seemed like he'd totally closed off from her. And there was no evidence that she even knew about it.

And in S5, Lindsay actually seemed to be dangerously skirting that line, from the Blue Flu fiasco to the way she said yes to his second proposal. He was saying all the right things, so I think she was kind of hoping he did feel that way about her; but at the same time, it's hard to imagine she didn't know what was driving the proposal on some level. She did pause for quite a long time before finally saying yes; and I have to think that her even saying yes in the first place was partly about catering to his insecurity that she'd leave him (there really wasn't much that changed between "The Triangle" and "Green Piece", except for the fact that she was suddenly leaving for Montana).

I think it was also that she wanted him. She wanted him on her terms, but if she couldn't have him on those terms, I think she wanted him however she could get him... especially when he seemed so willing. I think she knew saying yes was taking advantage of his insecurity, and at the same time, was also giving him what he wanted--the family he was obviously craving. Weird and very complicated. I think they both have a lot of issues that played into that marriage happening.

True, it may have been about not knowing exactly what he wanted in RND. But if he felt that whatever he had to say could wait, then I don't think it was pressing on him that heavily...and he didn't even end up saying it later (if it was originally different from what he said in PF).

I think he gave up. She didn't want to hear it. So he said what he knew she would want to hear and it worked.

I don't know, I just remember her voice being a lot more vulnerable than usual during that "I tried to give you your space" thing. And so the words that came after really stuck with me. I do think she wanted to believe what he was saying (she usually does), but maybe knew on some level that he was saying them only to appease her. With that "hard to love" line, she really did seem to be trying to get him to say something similar.

I'm sure she was. And yet he didn't and she went over there anyway. Because of the way she treats him, it's hard for me to say she just loves him beyond all measure... but I do think she wants him very much.

Oh yeah, I don't disagree it would be hard to deal with Danny's difficult tendencies (being ditched in a diner, chasing him around town). But I really think it helps a great deal to know that the reason he's being difficult isn't personal to you specifically. That's something that Flack has, that none of the others have, and I think that's very important. It really doesn't seem like it's Danny's less-personal difficulties that people have a problem with; most of the time, people seem very willing to put up with them. Aiden didn't think much of following Danny on that case in "Crime and Misdemeanour", even though she could just as easily have gotten into trouble like he did. And both she and Mac were more than willing to drop everything to save him from trouble in "On the Job". Mac's issue was never what he had to do to save Danny in "On the Job", it was about Danny not trusting him to do it. He certainly didn't seem to mind dropping literally his entire day to save Danny in "Run Silent". Even Lindsay didn't think twice about taking his shift in "AitF", although Mac seemed to know perfectly well she was covering for Danny, and she knew he knew. People put up with Danny's difficult side all the time without a thought, because they care. What gets to them is that Danny doesn't trust them even as they're doing it; and that's a side of things Flack hasn't ever experienced.

Perhaps not (and only perhaps), but because they're so close, Danny seems to expect Flack will put up with his behavior more than anyone else. Danny clearly didn't think anything of storming out of the diner on Flack--he never apologized. Same thing with "All in the Family"--he tried to dodge Flack throughout the episode and then on top of that acted surly towards him after Flack chased him all over Manhattan! Danny seems to expect Flack to put up with his brattiness simply because he's finally gotten to the point that he believes Flack cares for him. (Makes one wonder if it's worth the effort to break down Danny's walls. :lol: ) And even then, it feels a little like at times he's testing Flack with the behavior, to see if Flack is going to bail.

And it's Friday night and I must run! TBC, but possibly not until tomorrow!

 

[Top41]

Part two!

I imagine knowing that Danny wasn't storming out of the diner because he was mad at him, made it much easier for Flack to deal with the diner thing. I can't imagine anyone else who cares about Danny seriously holding the diner thing against him; I would certainly find it forgivable of a friend if they ditched me because they were mad at the world in general, not mad at me specifically. I agree it might've helped if Flack specifically told Danny that he was there for him...but honestly, to me it just seemed like such a "taken as a given" issue for them that I wasn't really surprised neither of them said it out loud.

I don't know, I'd be pretty pissed if a friend stormed out on me and left me with the check! :lol: But I think there was a personal element to it, because I think Danny was fishing for Flack to reassure him and tell him that he had his back. What if Flack said, "Danny, I'm looking out for you--it's going to be okay." Not really something Flack would necessarily say--and I think that Flack knew Danny could potentially be in deep trouble--but I think part of Danny was hoping Flack would say something like that, and coddle him a bit. Flack didn't and Danny got worked up/upset enough to storm out. Their initial reason for meeting was no doubt to talk about what was going on (and yes, I think it was clear Danny called Flack to come to him), but as it went on, it also seemed like Danny was hoping to hear something from Flack that he didn't. That's personal.

But Flack comes into the lab all the time, and not just to visit with Danny specifically. From Season 1 (when he came with Aiden to get trace results in "Tri-Borough") to Season 3 (he was in the lab with Stella and Hawkes when Lindsay came in with her demonstration) to Season 5 (I don't know which episode, but he and Adam both were in Stella's office). In "Heroes", Danny had no real reason to assume he was in the lab for him specifically, especially since they started going on about the case shortly after the Aiden talk.

Sure, Flack comes to the lab all the time--definitely not disputing that. It's been a while since I saw "Heroes" but I remember something in Flack's demeanor showed a concern for Danny. Something in the way he looked at Danny... which Danny obviously picked up on and ran with. I do think Danny is more willing to believe Flack is there for him than he is with anyone else, but he makes Flack work for it sometimes. That just wasn't one of those times.

As for them turning to the case afterwards, that's a CSI-show contrivance that annoys me to no end. Hell, even after Lindsay told Danny she was pregnant in "The Box," that convo ended with a case connection when she turned and just happened to recognize the sketch of the victim. I hate that. I don't think every personal moment has to come back to the case, but that's something that's done in most of the shows (not always in Vegas perhaps, or maybe it's done more subtly).

Danny just started spilling as soon as Flack came in through the door. I don't know how much difference it would have made had Lindsay turned the conversation to Ruben, because I find it hard to believe Lindsay absolutely would not have said anything after "AitF". But if Danny had wanted to talk, I think he really would've opened the communication line first because that's what he usually does.

See, I don't think Lindsay did say anything after AitF--I think she expected him to come to her. If she did say anything, it was probably a semi-hostile, "Hey, I totally covered for you and Mac was on to me--what was up with not showing up at work yesterday?" I can totally see that from her. I remember her eye-roll/flutter thing after Mac made his comment after she covered for Danny. I can totally see her approaching Danny with an irritable attitude because that is something she does... and that would make him shut down and not open up to her.

Not sure about this...the number of times coworkers have cleaned up Danny's messes certainly exceeds the number of times they've cleaned up Lindsay's. Although yeah, Danny doesn't usually expect them to do it, and he probably wasn't thinking rationally in AitF.

Yeah, but Danny doesn't expect it--Lindsay just bails on crime scenes or refuses to handle an aspect of the case and leaves it to her co-workers to deal with. In LWFM, her first instinct was to say to Mac, "But Danny was there after me; I'm sure he...." To me those are the words of someone who expects others to clean up her messes. She stopped because she rightly saw Mac wasn't someone she could BS in the way she does others.

I really think the comic-book thing was more than just letting him be involved (I mean, she could let him be involved at home, while not on the clock). But it really seems like both actions and words don't work - because Lindsay has specifically indicated that she thinks he'd be a great father; and heck, in Green Piece she actually told him that it wasn't about him being the "wrong guy". There's not really much that's getting through, he just doesn't seem to be listening.

No, indeed, and that's his damage. Danny clearly has a major fear of abandonment. He was obviously afraid that if he didn't marry her, she'd take his kid away. I'm not saying for a minute that she would, but I think it was obvious that that was his fear. He didn't seem at all calmed or settled until they married. To him, that showed him she wasn't going to leave him... but even if she did, he'd feel like he was on more solid legal ground for claiming his child.

I agree with this, but Danny's actually brushed people off when they've been pushing to help, too (Aiden in S1 finale).

He pushed back verbally (he did with Flack a bit, too), but ultimately he did what she wanted him to do.

See, I totally agree with this. I think it does take a lot to get through Danny's walls, and I think few people have ever actually made it past them (Flack, and possibly Aiden). That does mean, though, that things tend to be easier for those few than they are for those who haven't really made it past the wall. And it probably indicates that it takes a long time to get past those walls - I mean, even in S1 both Aiden and Flack seemed like they'd been tight with Danny for years. We have no clue if there was a time when Danny made things as hard for Flack as he makes them for Mac/Lindsay/Louie/etc.

No, we don't, though Flack certainly really seems to have penetrated those walls completely. Danny tests him now and then, but it certainly seems like he not only accepts that Flack cares about him, but also that Flack knows what's best for him, maybe even more than he himself does. In RSRD, when Mac asked Flack to stand guard over Danny, Flack looked at Danny--not Mac--and said, "We're not going anywhere. Danny met his eyes, accepted what he was saying completely and totally passively--much in the way he accepted Flack's help in "All in the Family."

Yeah, it's not really fair to spend that long just waiting - she should've pushed harder, but at the same time, it's five months (possibly). It's strange that in five months, he didn't once see the need to vent to her, or let her in on anything.

Just as how it's strange that in five months she didn't feel the desire/need to approach him and try to get him to open up.

True, that letting him know why the harshness was necessary did seem to be pretty important; it's one of my favourite things about Flack. He rarely just reacts and takes things out on people, without letting them know why he's reacting/taking things harshly on them.

Flack's such a centered, balanced guy, which is why sometimes I wonder why he'd put up with Danny's difficult personality. He certainly seems to care about Danny a great deal, and values their friendship a lot, but sometimes (like in AitF), I kind of wonder why Flack puts up with Danny the way he does, and with such great reserves of patience.

That's kind of where it gets really "romanticizing/shippy" for me :lol: Because I think that if Flack did start to mean a lot to Lindsay, she would stop with the brattiness, or with the "yes-no" thing, because she knows Flack wouldn't stick around if she were to pull away. I know it's the height of "shippiness" to be all "she can change for him!1" but I don't even think I'm really being that off-base with this assumption. She already seems to know on some level that Flack's the only one who wouldn't put up with her brattiness, and if she ever did fall for him I can't imagine this fact suddenly slipping her mind.

Yeah, I can see how the shippiness comes in there. I guess I'm just so against the idea--mostly for the sake of Danny and Flack's relationship, because I don't think even if Flack wanted to, he'd ever go there in a million years. I also think Lindsay is enough of a Mary Sue that we don't need to see Flack and Danny "fighting" over her. But I'm definitely of a to each their own mentality when it comes to shipping--my pair of choice would be Danny and Flack, because I think a big part of the reason Flack would go to the moon and back for Danny is because he's got feelings for him.

And even with Danny - I know the "yes-no" thing isn't all his fault, but I do think a bit of the reason Lindsay hasn't yet changed that much is because she doesn't seem to get the feeling that she really needs to with Danny.

I agree... and that's something that makes me really dislike her. He's shown her she can treat him like dirt and he'll still be there, so she does treat him like a yo-yo. I intensely disliked her when she wouldn't hear his side of things in season four--when you care about someone as a human being, you talk to that person and hear what they have to say in return. I'm torn on the whole love thing from her, really--I think she wants him, but I don't know if what she feels for him is unselfish enough to be called love. I buy that she believes she loves him, though.

She really didn't expect him to stick around after she said no the first time (because she seemed almost resigned in "Love Run Cold", and was surprised when he walked into the courtroom in Montana), but when he did she assumed (not unreasonably) it meant that things were fine with them.

I don't know that she didn't expect him to stick around--she just didn't give him any opening and didn't seem to take his feelings into account one way or another. Unless it suited her of course, as in "Oedipus Hex." She tossed him a card when she was leaving for Montana. If she thought things were fine after that because he showed up in Montana, I guess I get that, but I think she was ignoring the damage that was pretty obvious from his behavior in season three. She seems to think of him as more of a prop than a real person, with feelings and needs and emotions of his own.

And after she got burned in S4 she seemed to feel a need to change things. Half the reason I'm convinced Lindsay really was mad at herself for the S4-debacle is because in S5 she was making an extra effort to be there for him, that wasn't there in S4.

Only after he found out about the baby and cornered her. And then proposed to her. Up until that point, I think she was still being her old, inconsiderate self. It was only once he was really being a lapdog again that she threw him bones in the form of letting him feel the baby kick or letting him read a comic book to the baby.

So she seems to feel the need to change bad things with herself when it becomes obvious they're influencing her relationships. I could easily see something similar happening with Flack. That's why the "yes-no" wouldn't be possible to pull on him - if she knew that "no" meant "no forever", and she really did care about Flack, I can't see her pulling it anyway.

See, I think she just does it once Danny pacifies her. She's never made an effort with Danny on the level Flack or even Mac has. Flack would never kowtow to her the way Danny does.

I don't know - if she ever did fall for Flack, I can see her going after him and making specific efforts to impress him, like she did with Danny. It's less certain whether Flack would fall for those efforts, but if one of them was the specific effort to curb the brattiness, I don't see how Flack wouldn't pick up on that, even if only to wonder what's causing it. The bantering is fun, and yeah...I guess I can see friendly-rivalry there, at most I mean, I do think they both enjoy unsettling each other, may even find it funny when the other is annoyed/pissed. But I don't think either would enjoy seeing the other genuinely upset (even in "Dead Inside" Lindsay seemed more awkward-worried than pleased about Flack's anger with Sam; and even in AitF when they were pretty on edge, Flack did seem to take Lindsay's worry into consideration).

I don't think they dislike each other to the point of wanting to see the other hurting or downright unhappy, no, but I think if pre-season five Danny had well and truly given Lindsay the dump, Flack would have been thrilled. And probably thought she deserved it.

Though yes, Flack so takes the cake! Lindsay comes in second to him, at least when it comes to intentional wittiness. As far as plain hilarity goes, Danny wins hands down over both, for me :lol:.

LOL, only inadvertently in my book. To me, Danny is most funny when he doesn't mean to be. It's Flack's lines that really crack me up.

LOL, awesome! :alienblush: :thumbsup: I'm really getting great insight into Danny too, especially in S4 - I kind of rewatched parts of S4 recently, and it occurred to me how much about Danny's behaviour just used to kind of go over my head. I mean, there are episodes that highlight his insecurity, but he's pretty cocky quite a few times, so I think that's what made me assume he couldn't be that insecure.

He gets cocky when working on cases, and I notice he can really be that way around Flack--when he knows Flack is right there to bolster him up or protect him should things go bad. I think Danny comes off as cocky sometimes, but it's never struck me as anything but him trying to look cool or being a smartass, depending on the situation. It never comes across as him thinking he's all that.

That's a really good point about Flack's possible hero complex. I mean, I've always had a favourite theory on how it may have been Flack who got Danny into law enforcement after his baseball chances were ruined (at least, until in S5 it was revealed that Danny apparently came from a family of cops ). I think a huge part of Danny's draw might just be Danny himself - I mean, Lindsay laughs at Danny's lamer jokes and makes excuses for spending time with him, and to a lesser extent so do Mac and Stella (with the jokes, anyway). But yeah, I do agree that fondness really seems to be a big reason for why Flack puts up with Danny. On the other hand, fondness grows all the time between people...I agree he doesn't seem to be at that point with Lindsay, which is why I think if she were to fall for him any time soon she'd totally have to be the one to do all the work.

Eddie once said he saw Flack as an arm's length kind of guy, and I can totally see that. I don't think there are many people he confides in. With Danny, I think Flack would seriously take a bullet for the guy, but at the same time, he looks at Danny as someone weaker/more vulnerable than he is and not necessarily someone he can or should confide in. I just don't see him feeling much of a connection with Lindsay at all.

True, but what about all the people watching who do look like Maka or Angell, let alone the DL fans who do? I can see how DL would have the "Bridget Jones" appeal, especially since they specifically seem to play on that "cute-but-average-girl-next-door" effect with Lindsay/Belknap on CSI: NY. But NY isn't a book or movie where it's clear the hot guy would be hooking up with the plain girl; it's an ongoing TV show where for almost two seasons, Danny was for the most part a free agent (it's pretty hard to tell that D and L are supposed to be a thing unless you watch S2 from the beginning). I think we'd be hearing a lot of complaints still if Lindsay didn't at least look like she could be in Danny's league.

Not necessarily. I don't know--I noticed the discrepancy right from the beginning, and I remember others commenting on it. Still, it was in season four when they cut her hair that it was really noticeable--that aged her by like 10 years and made her look older than him I thought. It's always felt off to me, but I guess that's a matter of personal taste and is going to vary from person to person.

Additionally, I'm iffy about how much that DL appeal is solely about hot guy/plain girl even for DL fans, because I do think the aesthetics play an almost-ridiculous part in the examples you mentioned. In Pride and Prejudice, though Elizabeth was poor (which gave her the "ordinary" girl gimmick) it was very clear that she was supposed to be pretty, which I think is more of the appeal for a lot of P&P fans. I don't think it would've been enough for just Darcy to fall for her, a significant part of the appeal was that Wickham (and Cleaver, for Bridget Jones) were also attracted. In Twilight you see it too - entire chapters of that series are devoted to how Jacob/half the guys at school are unrealistically falling all over themselves because of Bella, despite also trying to sell Bella as an "ordinary girl". It's not enough for just Edward Cullen to be seeing her as pretty, others have to also. You also mentioned in the "WLMG" thread that DL fans tend to mention that "Lindsay should make Danny jealous" - but it's almost pointed how we've never really seen Lindsay react to any other guy that way, or vice versa. Yet DL still holds that appeal, with people somehow thinking that Lindsay would be able to attract another guy if she wanted to. That's why I think even DL fans aren't really seeing Lindsay as a "plain Jane", though they may see her as more ordinary than the other women on the show. I just don't think DL would fly if Lindsay didn't have some level of prettiness.

But see the idea in all of those is that the Plain Jane really is special, and look, all of these people notice! Darcy can look past Elizabeth's poverty (side note: only really using P&P because poverty back then is what plainness/ordinaryness is today, somewhat--Elizabeth totally rocks), Edward and Jacob are both drawn to Bella because despite her appearance she's not ordinary. I believe Fay either coined or brought to my notice the term "Special Snowflake"--it's the idea that the ordinary girl is really just so awesome/special and look, the hot guy sees it. And so do others around her! It's another Mary Sue quality of Lindsay. She's an ordinary girl, but everyone treats her as though she's really special/awesome.

Exactly! Of the two of them, Danny is so not the guy I'd usually be attracted to, but what makes him utterly charming is that he's got the sex appeal without having the skeezy undertone. That's really original - even GA's Mark Sloane, for all his hidden depths, doesn't manage to pull that off So I think that is a huge draw for a lot of fans.

Exactly. The skeeze factor that most guys with that extreme sexual allure Danny has usually have is kind of a turn off. But Danny's not like that--he's incredibly sexual and sexy without being totally aware of it. That's a lot of his charm.

 

[Maya316]

Back off and apparently not hold her accountable, which is what people seem to do. I think she knows if she comes at someone with hostility, it will send them backpedaling. It always seems to work with Danny. Even Stella, who got angry back, didn't actually do anything or really reprimand her.

She would've done that with Mac then, in LWFM, if that's what she thought it took to get people to back off. Stella has certainly been less lenient with her than Mac usually is (she's snapped at Lindsay twice, which is already more than anyone else has). So it couldn't have been that she thought something that might fly with Stella wouldn't fly with Mac.

I guess I just don't see a fear of guns from her. I can't see her volunteering in "Not What It Looks Like" if she had an actual fear of guns. She has no problem bailing if a situation makes her uncomfortable, so I just can't see her putting herself out for someone else if it really, really was a big fear of hers. I mean, this is the woman who couldn't reach out to her boyfriend when he was hurting after the loss of a child because she's "not good at this kind of thing." I really can't see her putting herself out for strangers in that way if she had an actual fear of guns. We've also never seen that when she's handled guns--whether it was proudly displaying that shotgun in "Bad Beat" or firing the one in season four, I've never seen an ounce of trepidation in her behavior around guns. Maybe that's something Belknap's not conveying... but I just don't see it. If Mac is coddling her by keeping her away from dangerous situation that's one thing, but in Lindsay's reactions, I don't see anything that indicates she has a fear of guns.

I think part of what happened in "Not What it Looks Like" was her issue with teenage girls being shot conflicting with any other possible fear. I really think that's also an issue of hers that played a huge role in why she put herself out there. I'd understand if it was literally the only thing that could've been done and she was forced to go undercover; but it wasn't, and she wasn't. There was absolutely no reason for her to go undercover. She insisted on it. It certainly wasn't the best plan - she was horrible at undercover, it was pure luck that the entire thing didn't boomerang on them, and there were easily better plans that could've been made up on the spot, that didn't involve putting any lives in danger (ie, like the Hostage situation in "Snow Day" - they probably would've gotten the same results had they made contact with the criminals).

It might not be a fear of guns specifically, maybe just a fear of getting shot...or Mac may just be coddling her. Either way, it's something I've noticed fairly consistently throughout the series.

Danny's wall punch I totally give you--that annoyed me to no end. Danny can be just as self-involved as Lindsay, though it isn't as obvious nor as grating because he also can be very caring and giving, whereas Lindsay isn't so much. I don't remember any off reactions from Stella and Hawkes, but Sid I recall trying to comfort Flack.

Sid told a story in the diner, ending it with "thought she'd never speak to me again, now she never will" - we never even saw Sid speak to Angell once, so it seemed a little over-the-top that he'd be that affected by her death. But see, I wouldn't exactly call that making things about himself, just because he was affected. Any more than I would call Hawkes' edginess throughout the whole episode (or his "we're going to get them, we're going to get them") making things about him. That was just him being affected, not demanding that anyone else take notice of his pain. Any more than Lindsay or Sid were. I personally thought it was nice that Stella was the one to give the speech honoring Angell at the end, because we actually saw them interact often enough. But had it been any of the others, save Flack, I would've thought they were making things about themselves.

Oh Mac is just as bad as Lindsay about making it All About Him! After her, he's probably my least favorite character on the show (though he is miles ahead of her). At least when Mac makes it all about him, he's usually right (the 333 killer), but one of the things I like about Mac is that the writers actually show that sometimes he's out of line and just being an ass. Like at the end of season three, with the witchhunt over Clay Dobson's death. Mac was kind of an ass about it--and the show made it clear that he was indeed being kind of an ass. If Lindsay were held accountable in that way, she might be more tolerable, but she never is.

Totally true about Lindsay never being held accountable. But Mac wasn't really held accountable in "Pay Up", either, and that's why I thought he was the only real one making things about himself: using Angell's death to escalate the personal vendetta with Dunbrook, thus sort-of demanding that Dunbrook and his team take notice of his pain (though he barely spoke to Angell). And then was appeased when Dunbrook did (the honorary Angell-section in the paper...I think that would've gone over better had Dunbrook done it for Flack, not for Mac).

Running off only made it more all about her, because Danny had to stop an interrogation to chase after her. That interrogation was shot the moment she ran out--Danny could have tried to salvage it, but the person they were interrogating (can't remember who) knew he/she had gotten to the cops.

True, but ideally, Danny wouldn't have followed her out. The interrogation would've continued. She would've disappeared, gotten over it, and come back with no one paying special attention to her issue... things wouldn't have become about her. That's why I thought she was trying to stop things from becoming all about her when she ran out - the interrogation was disrupted when she visibly snapped during it, but things did not have to come to a screeching halt just because she ran out. Had it been anyone else in the interrogation room with her (Flack certainly, Hawkes, Mac, maybe even Stella), they probably wouldn't have.

Interesting observation--which do you think it is?

I've thought about it a lot and I still can't decide. At times during early S4, Lindsay seemed to be very aware that Danny's walls were there (her stung expression in "The Deep", the way she was kind of warily watching him after she put the condom spray in his pocket in "Can You Hear Me Now?")...but then the very next time you saw them interact, it would be like things were golden again. Makes me think she was just ignoring the signs. But then you add in all that extra cheerfulness from early-S4, and I'm left wondering if maybe she was just too happy in that "brand-new-relationship" stage to even pay attention to the wall.

Maybe... but maybe he was expecting her to make an effort to walk through it. Danny is a child... I think if he knew about her taking his shift, it did register with him, and like a kid he perked up a little bit. He was a bit happier in that episode than we'd seen him before (I re-watched the first few minutes recently, and some of their scenes) because he probably was thinking, "Hey, maybe she does really care." And then she made no effort to talk to him and he withdrew again. Not saying that was the right way to go about it, but Danny has his own issues and massive insecurity is one of them. It takes a lot for people to get him to believe they care about him. Certainly I think he put Mac through the wringer in season one as much if not more so than Lindsay in season four. Danny just doesn't really believe people care about him.

That kind of leaves them at a stalemate, because I think Lindsay's issues kept her from making the grand gesture Danny seemed to require. Unless his life (or job) were in danger, which does sometimes seem like that's what it takes for Lindsay to do the grand-gesture thing. Mac went through the wringer with Danny in S1, definitely, but I think even he had it slightly easier...for one thing, I don't think he was as emotionally invested (he seemed upset by Danny's not trusting him, but I doubt he was actually hurt by it), and for another...Danny didn't trust him, but at least he let Mac in on that. Danny told Mac what was bothering him about the situation, didn't he? (Both mid-episode, and at the end in the office?)

Danny's pattern is to protest once and then shutdown. He did with Lindsay, when he asked her if it was about lunch. That was Danny pushing back--his tone was hard and he was clearly bothered by her reaction. And then she laid into him. Granted, what she said after the pause was harsher than before, I still think her tone indicated how upset she was with him. And his expression screamed that he'd shut down to me. I don't even think he was looking at her--he'd turned away, kind of withdrawn into himself. He heard her--in the same way he always heard Mac--but he was totally retreating into his shell.

Danny protested more than once, in "Crime and Misdemeanour" (Mac came in already shouting, but Danny held his own until right before Mac's last few words), and in "On the Job" in the office. And both those times, Mac's tone was far harsher from the start than Lindsay's was when she was all "That's what this is, me mad at you?" (upon which he said his lunch line.) Her tone did indicate that she was upset with him, but so did Mac's in those two examples, and even slightly in "Run Silent". But Danny still said his piece then. Heck, even in "Oedipus Hex", Lindsay sounded snappier than she did in the office in RND, and Danny still snapped back at her. First time I watched RND, I was actually surprised Danny didn't start snapping right back during that speech, but that's what made me think his expression and his refusal to answer during the pause wasn't about shutting down. He wasn't looking at her - but only when she was accusing him of all those things he actually was guilty of (grieving on his own, thinking of her as shallow). Not saying that he didn't have his reasons for doing all those things, but he was still guilty of them. And it was when she actually did start getting comparatively harsh after the pause that he started looking at her. Which is usually what he does when he shuts down - he looked directly at Mac in both "C&M" and "On the Job", though you could practically see him mentally shutting down anyway.

He tried again, but it almost seemed in resignation. I think up until that phone call, he was going to actually talk about things with her. Then he saw she wouldn't talk, so he offered her what he thought she did want--capitulation and sex. And the fact that she responded to that just reinforced his belief that he was right all along about what she wanted from him.

I'm still not seeing much evidence that he had anything more to say after the RND-blow-up, that he didn't say in PF. Even if he wasn't able to define what it was he wanted from her or what to say to her, I think he still would've felt an urgency to say it - if it was pressing enough. Why not say it after she'd already come over in PF? Once she was at his place and he could at least know she had to listen (or walk back to her own place in the rain)?

What did he do to her, though, other than withdraw from her? He didn't yell at her, he didn't treat her cruelly--all he did was forget her birthday and not confide in her. And yes, he slept with someone else--but at that point it seemed like he'd totally closed off from her. And there was no evidence that she even knew about it.

I wasn't really referring to any of the pre-fight stuff, though - I was thinking more about LWFM, and whether Lindsay's refusal to watch a movie with him should say anything about unconditional love or not (even to Danny). I really think at that point in LWFM, Danny didn't feel like he had to do anything about the fact that she was in love with him, though he was still kind of using that fact to test her. Like expecting that if she really was in love with him, she'd totally want to spend extra time with him whenever, as friends. I think if she'd said yes, it would have just been an ordinary friend-date, maybe with her feelings being the "elephant in the room": there, but mostly ignored.

But quite frankly, that hurts (for the person actually in love, I mean). There are people who are willing to put up with that kind of hurt because they want to spend time with the person they love anyway. But it's not really fair for that person to expect them to put up with that kind of hurt, just to prove that they really love said person. Especially if said person can't return that love. That's what I meant by Danny (potentially) doing something to Lindsay, although I don't think he actually thought about how it might hurt her. She wasn't willing to put herself through that pain, but that doesn't say anything about unconditional love. To me that just says she wasn't willing to let her love get that self-destructive; then, anyway.

I think it was also that she wanted him. She wanted him on her terms, but if she couldn't have him on those terms, I think she wanted him however she could get him... especially when he seemed so willing. I think she knew saying yes was taking advantage of his insecurity, and at the same time, was also giving him what he wanted--the family he was obviously craving. Weird and very complicated. I think they both have a lot of issues that played into that marriage happening.

That's definitely true, and I do think her wanting him played a certain role in accepting the proposal the second time; although if that were a primary factor, I really think she would've accepted the proposal the first time. The only thing that changed from the first to the second was that it probably became easier to pretend he really felt the same way (since, he was actually implying it this time). But ugh, she seems to know on some level what's really driving all the proposals and "I love yous" and stuff, so it comes off as borderline self-destructive to me in a pretty weird way, and very contrary to the end of S4. If she knows all that, she has to also know she's basically there for as long as he wants/needs her there.

I think he gave up. She didn't want to hear it. So he said what he knew she would want to hear and it worked.

Well, he assumed she didn't want to hear it - if there was anything else he wanted her to hear - although I don't think that was the case. But if it was that important to him, even if he wasn't sure exactly what it was he wanted, or how to define it, I can't see him just giving up on saying it.

Perhaps not (and only perhaps), but because they're so close, Danny seems to expect Flack will put up with his behavior more than anyone else. Danny clearly didn't think anything of storming out of the diner on Flack--he never apologized. Same thing with "All in the Family"--he tried to dodge Flack throughout the episode and then on top of that acted surly towards him after Flack chased him all over Manhattan! Danny seems to expect Flack to put up with his brattiness simply because he's finally gotten to the point that he believes Flack cares for him. (Makes one wonder if it's worth the effort to break down Danny's walls. :lol: ) And even then, it feels a little like at times he's testing Flack with the behavior, to see if Flack is going to bail.

Yeah, the tests definitely seem ongoing, even after one has gotten through the walls. I don't know that Danny expects Flack to put up with his behaviour more than the others, though. Being ditched at a diner or having to chase him around town aren't minor things, but in comparison to some of the things Danny's put the others through, they do fall kind of short (not AitF, but the diner thing). And we've seen him test the others with those things more often than we've seen him test Flack. Additionally, I do think the trust thing is a huge issue - at the very least, Flack never has to worry about being completely shut out.

I don't know, I'd be pretty pissed if a friend stormed out on me and left me with the check! :lol:

I could see how that would be annoying But it wasn't like Danny ordered half the menu, he might've gotten a coffee, if that. And given that it was a diner, he'd probably already paid for it. Additionally, it was a New York diner - it's always embarrassing to be stormed out on in public, but I doubt anyone else even looked up. In that context, for me, I would've gotten over it fast if I knew it wasn't about me; and I can't see Flack having had an issue with it.

 

[Maya316]

And Part 2 :lol:

But I think there was a personal element to it, because I think Danny was fishing for Flack to reassure him and tell him that he had his back. What if Flack said, "Danny, I'm looking out for you--it's going to be okay." Not really something Flack would necessarily say--and I think that Flack knew Danny could potentially be in deep trouble--but I think part of Danny was hoping Flack would say something like that, and coddle him a bit. Flack didn't and Danny got worked up/upset enough to storm out. Their initial reason for meeting was no doubt to talk about what was going on (and yes, I think it was clear Danny called Flack to come to him), but as it went on, it also seemed like Danny was hoping to hear something from Flack that he didn't. That's personal.

I'm not sure Flack telling Danny that he had his back would've stopped him from storming out, just because I'm still really convinced that Danny instinctively knew that. (And slightly because the other time we've seen Flack say that, Danny kind of walked out anyway, in AitF.) I think there was a personal element to Danny's behaviour, because in that meeting he really seemed to be looking for some sort of reassurance that he never seemed to get - hence the storming out - but I don't think that reassurance was ever supposed to come from Flack. Flack was already telling Danny (basically) that things would be okay, if he trusted Mac. But I think Danny called that meeting to vent. I don't think he stormed out because of something Flack said or didn't say, or didn't do...that's why I don't see his leaving as being personal against Flack.

As for them turning to the case afterwards, that's a CSI-show contrivance that annoys me to no end. Hell, even after Lindsay told Danny she was pregnant in "The Box," that convo ended with a case connection when she turned and just happened to recognize the sketch of the victim. I hate that. I don't think every personal moment has to come back to the case, but that's something that's done in most of the shows (not always in Vegas perhaps, or maybe it's done more subtly).

Ugh, no kidding. I've started watching CSI:Miami a little lately, and I've noticed they frequently do the same thing there, too.

See, I don't think Lindsay did say anything after AitF--I think she expected him to come to her. If she did say anything, it was probably a semi-hostile, "Hey, I totally covered for you and Mac was on to me--what was up with not showing up at work yesterday?" I can totally see that from her. I remember her eye-roll/flutter thing after Mac made his comment after she covered for Danny. I can totally see her approaching Danny with an irritable attitude because that is something she does... and that would make him shut down and not open up to her.

Lindsay had to have gotten at least part of the story already from Flack [I mean, I think she got it from somewhere, since I don't see her being okay with the fact that they both suddenly vanished; and she clearly didn't get it from Danny]. So if she did approach Danny about the skipped shift, I think she would've broached the subject from that angle. I can so see the irritability thing happening (in her defense, she had every reason to be irritated), but while irritability isn't likely to get anyone to open up, I've never seen it stop Danny from either venting or defending his actions; like he did with Stella in "Party's Over", when she came over already angry.

Yeah, but Danny doesn't expect it--Lindsay just bails on crime scenes or refuses to handle an aspect of the case and leaves it to her co-workers to deal with. In LWFM, her first instinct was to say to Mac, "But Danny was there after me; I'm sure he...." To me those are the words of someone who expects others to clean up her messes. She stopped because she rightly saw Mac wasn't someone she could BS in the way she does others.

She said it was a bad excuse, because she knew it was a bad excuse for her behaviour, not because she thought the excuse wouldn't fly. If there was anyone she could've assumed the excuse would fly with, it should have been Mac. I'm not seeing how she would've assumed she couldn't BS Mac if she really thought she could BS Stella - Mac indulges her far more often than Stella does.

Just as how it's strange that in five months she didn't feel the desire/need to approach him and try to get him to open up.

Exactly :lol:. It was equally strange on both their parts.

Flack's such a centered, balanced guy, which is why sometimes I wonder why he'd put up with Danny's difficult personality. He certainly seems to care about Danny a great deal, and values their friendship a lot, but sometimes (like in AitF), I kind of wonder why Flack puts up with Danny the way he does, and with such great reserves of patience.

My interpretation of it has always been that Flack doesn't have to do that sort of stuff, all or even most of the time. I mean, they've totally got a great bromance, and there are times when friends need you to really put yourself on the line for them. But what really makes me think that Danny trusts Flack a lot more than he does anyone else, is the way that for the most part, Danny doesn't put him through the wringer. Danny's not exactly as considerate as he could be when it comes to Flack, but there's a lot more leeway and work-together-ness (I can't think of a better word right now ) that he gives with Flack that he doesn't give with Mac, Lindsay, Louie, even Stella, etc.

Yeah, I can see how the shippiness comes in there. I guess I'm just so against the idea--mostly for the sake of Danny and Flack's relationship, because I don't think even if Flack wanted to, he'd ever go there in a million years. I also think Lindsay is enough of a Mary Sue that we don't need to see Flack and Danny "fighting" over her. But I'm definitely of a to each their own mentality when it comes to shipping--my pair of choice would be Danny and Flack, because I think a big part of the reason Flack would go to the moon and back for Danny is because he's got feelings for him.

Yeah, that's the one strike I have against Flack/Lindsay (or Hawkes/Lindsay) - the potential drama fallout:angryrazz:. Ideally, Lindsay would get with someone outside of work who could be at least as good for her as I think Flack would be.

I agree... and that's something that makes me really dislike her. He's shown her she can treat him like dirt and he'll still be there, so she does treat him like a yo-yo.

Did she treat him like a yo-yo after he'd shown her that he'd still be there? I really can't count the Season-4 fallout as her treating him like the yo-yo, since it really seemed like he'd dropped her first.

I intensely disliked her when she wouldn't hear his side of things in season four--when you care about someone as a human being, you talk to that person and hear what they have to say in return.

If you think they've already said what they had to say (as in "you've been dumped", which I'm still pretty convinced was what Danny had to say in RND), I don't think you're under obligation to hear what they have to say afterward. At least not right away. Especially not if you think what they have to say is just going to hurt you more. You do hear someone out when you care about them, but for me, the rule does not apply as strongly when you know it'll lead to you being/feeling hurt. I just think there's a line, where caring about someone should not come back to "putting yourself through pain for someone"; that line would exist whether Lindsay were dating Danny or Flack or whoever. I know there's always a degree of pain in "serious" relationships, but I really think it gets unhealthy after that line is crossed.

I know Lindsay obviously didn't know for sure what Danny might've said had they talked earlier than PF; but she also had absolutely no reason to think that it was anything other than "you've been dumped". Which she'd already gotten the gist of. Maybe "and here's why", but I don't see how that would've hurt less, or why she had to hear it right then. He'd been sending "dumped" signals before and during RND, there was the "I'm sorry" line, there was the way his next real words to her were "let's rent a movie" (not the best way to say "let's have a serious talk"). By the time "PF" rolled around - the only time he seriously indicated that there was more to talk about - if you ask me, she had even less reason to believe so.

I'm torn on the whole love thing from her, really--I think she wants him, but I don't know if what she feels for him is unselfish enough to be called love. I buy that she believes she loves him, though.

Actually, I'm a little torn on it too. I do think she loves him, simply because she puts up with so much more from him than I think I would put up with from any boyfriend. [I realize it'd always take a lot to care about Danny in a good way. But that's what makes me think that those persons who do care - as in, the ones who seem especially emotionally invested: Flack, Lindsay, Aiden, maybe even Mac - just by default have to love him quite a bit to put up with what they do for/from him.] But it really seems like a kind of love I could see her easily getting over - if he'd let her or if it became necessary. I don't know if simple "want", or anything less than some version of genuine love would match with her behaviour, though. I mean, she married the guy, knowing at least partly that between the two of them, she's the only one who feels anything even remotely romantic. Even if it's just want, she's setting herself up for a painful fall - and I'm not sure desire would be enough of a motive to knowingly do that. Again, it seems self-destructive to me. If it were about desire, she could just have him after she got back from Montana, without worrying about his insecurities.

I don't know that she didn't expect him to stick around--she just didn't give him any opening and didn't seem to take his feelings into account one way or another. Unless it suited her of course, as in "Oedipus Hex." She tossed him a card when she was leaving for Montana. If she thought things were fine after that because he showed up in Montana, I guess I get that, but I think she was ignoring the damage that was pretty obvious from his behavior in season three. She seems to think of him as more of a prop than a real person, with feelings and needs and emotions of his own.

If she didn't give him any opening, how would she also be expecting him to stick around? Even "Oedipus Hex" just made it seem like she was more focused on pushing him away hard, than on reeling him in. I don't think it's that she thinks of him as a prop, I think it's that she thinks of him as her. And usually treats him as though he's feeling the same things as her. [In early-S3, assuming he wasn't as emotionally invested because she wasn't as emotionally invested; in early-S4, assuming (though fairly, it has to be admitted) he was invested because she was invested; in late-S4, assuming he'd want his space because she'd want her space, etc.]

Only after he found out about the baby and cornered her. And then proposed to her. Up until that point, I think she was still being her old, inconsiderate self. It was only once he was really being a lapdog again that she threw him bones in the form of letting him feel the baby kick or letting him read a comic book to the baby.

Or being the only one to defend him at the office during a bad decision in "Party's Over", or calling him on the hour/every few hours (I think even Danny would've gotten fed up with that!), or agreeing to a shotgun wedding and a mostly-loveless marriage... (That's what made that whole thing really sketchy to me, aside from Danny's obvious neediness. I'm so not seeing how Lindsay would have found it romantic enough to agree if it were all about the illusion, no matter what Danny said to convince her. If she were seeing him as a lapdog, I think she would've at least demanded an actual wedding.) Additionally, Danny didn't need her to be there for him before he found out about the baby. Her not telling him about the baby had nothing to do with her not supporting him or seeing him as a prop - hell, she probably thought she was doing him a favour by "not expecting anything from him". It does show that Lindsay doesn't really know Danny, but she's certainly not the first woman to assume the father of their child would see it as a favour if the mother wasn't expecting anything from them. About 7 times out of 10, the women who assume that are actually right. The fathers would prefer not to be involved. Even in CSI: Miami they kind of highlighted that, didn't they (with Eric/Natalia)?

See, I think she just does it once Danny pacifies her. She's never made an effort with Danny on the level Flack or even Mac has. Flack would never kowtow to her the way Danny does.

She's never made an effort the way Flack or Mac have, but she has gone at least as far as Aiden has for Danny (putting her job in jeopardy), which makes me think that has more to do with lack of opportunity than anything else. And I don't think Danny's pacifying had one iota to do with Lindsay's change, mostly because it really seems she hasn't bought into the pacifying. Not after PF (even if she did go over to his place, things clearly weren't golden afterward), and not during/after the proposal in "The Triangle". Additionally, I really don't think Flack would ever be the one to do the kowtowing - I think it'd have to be Lindsay who made all the effort.

I don't think they dislike each other to the point of wanting to see the other hurting or downright unhappy, no, but I think if pre-season five Danny had well and truly given Lindsay the dump, Flack would have been thrilled. And probably thought she deserved it.

Wouldn't that fall under the heading of wanting to see her unhappy? Actually, I wouldn't blame Flack for being thrilled had D/L ended, but I don't think he would've been thrilled that Lindsay actually got hurt because of it - and being fair, Lindsay seemed tons more injured by the actual breakup than Danny did.

He gets cocky when working on cases, and I notice he can really be that way around Flack--when he knows Flack is right there to bolster him up or protect him should things go bad. I think Danny comes off as cocky sometimes, but it's never struck me as anything but him trying to look cool or being a smartass, depending on the situation. It never comes across as him thinking he's all that.

I don't know, his "That's what girlfriends are for" line to Aiden in "Tanglewood" (when she asked him if he'd ever been to a massage parlour before), along with his come-on to her in "Crime and Misdemeanour" seemed pretty confident-cocky to me...although generally, he was a lot more cocky in S1 than he was in later seasons. I've always found it endearing, but it took a while for me to see insecurity in him despite that.

Eddie once said he saw Flack as an arm's length kind of guy, and I can totally see that. I don't think there are many people he confides in. With Danny, I think Flack would seriously take a bullet for the guy, but at the same time, he looks at Danny as someone weaker/more vulnerable than he is and not necessarily someone he can or should confide in. I just don't see him feeling much of a connection with Lindsay at all.

I remember seeing that interview of Eddie Cahill's too, and yeah, I don't think he confides in many people, but I don't know how much of that has to do with fondness. He's very fond of Danny, but doesn't really confide in him. Yet Mac, and to some extent Stella (who granted, he's pretty close with, though he doesn't seem as fond as he does with Danny) are the only real two he does confide in. I agree that whatever connection Flack and Lindsay have is pretty limited to their bantering, but he seems to trust her enough that I could picture a connection possibly growing there. I mean, he started fighting with his sister in plain view of Lindsay, which I thought indicated some level of trust, given how private Flack usually is (when he started fighting with Sam in "Veritas", he specifically made sure they were in a private area - and then made sure it was Danny, his best friend, who interrogated her in that same episode).

But see the idea in all of those is that the Plain Jane really is special, and look, all of these people notice! Darcy can look past Elizabeth's poverty (side note: only really using P&P because poverty back then is what plainness/ordinaryness is today, somewhat--Elizabeth totally rocks), Edward and Jacob are both drawn to Bella because despite her appearance she's not ordinary. I believe Fay either coined or brought to my notice the term "Special Snowflake"--it's the idea that the ordinary girl is really just so awesome/special and look, the hot guy sees it. And so do others around her! It's another Mary Sue quality of Lindsay. She's an ordinary girl, but everyone treats her as though she's really special/awesome.

Lol, I totally agree with "Special Snowflake", although I think it gives the "ordinary-girl" gimmick a little more substance than it seems to have, especially in its appeal with fans. It kind of implies that it's about the girl's inner attractions, which is definitely a gimmick on its own, but I'm not sure has much to do with the attraction of the "other guys". Like, Wickham and Cleaver and...not Jacob, but all the other guys from Bella's school, really seem to be attracted to Elizabeth/Bridget/Bella/etc, on a more superficial level. That "specialness" kind of seems reserved for only the "Twu Luv!"-boyfriend-character(s) to notice. The other guys are pretty much just attracted looks-wise: which allows the Ordinary Girl to be all "Oh, I'm not pretty at all. I just happen to have a carpet of guys at my feet, ready for the taking. Don't ask me why." (Also trademark Mary-Sue: and I love Elizabeth Bennet, but even she had this aspect to her; what with all the talk about Jane being "five times prettier", despite Elizabeth being the one who had three, possibly four men attracted to her, while Jane just had the one)

She gets to be a knockout without actually being a knockout, since she sees herself as plain. If she acknowledges to herself that she's pretty, she stops being "Ordinary Girl" and becomes the sassy "homecoming queen" who knows her effect on guys...hence, she stops being relate-able. I mean, God forbid that a girl have a little self-esteem about her looks (the way Stella and Angell do). And if she actually is plain-plain, then realistically, guys are not falling all over themselves for her all the time. Where's the fun in that? That's why I think they really play on the "ordinary-girl-next-door" looks-aspect with Belknap/Lindsay...who, whether one sees her as pretty or not, has certainly looked more striking in magazine shoots and stuff than she usually does in CSI: NY.

(LOL, sorry if I sound too sarcastic...it's something that gets to me.)

Oh my gosh, two posts and I still went overboard with the writing *facepalm* Sorry if I cut some things out!

 

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I am waaaaaay late in replying! August has been something of a nutty month. But, I did catch a CSI: NY rerun of RSRD at the gym recently, which got me thinking more about this topic, so I thought I'd jump back in...

She would've done that with Mac then, in LWFM, if that's what she thought it took to get people to back off. Stella has certainly been less lenient with her than Mac usually is (she's snapped at Lindsay twice, which is already more than anyone else has). So it couldn't have been that she thought something that might fly with Stella wouldn't fly with Mac.

Well, she doesn't just have one tactic... no one does. She played the "poor me" card with Mac, which, let's face it, some women use on men because they know they can. It doesn't work so well with other women, but with an older guy who's already been a bit of a softy with her? Yeah. Uck.

I think part of what happened in "Not What it Looks Like" was her issue with teenage girls being shot conflicting with any other possible fear. I really think that's also an issue of hers that played a huge role in why she put herself out there. I'd understand if it was literally the only thing that could've been done and she was forced to go undercover; but it wasn't, and she wasn't. There was absolutely no reason for her to go undercover. She insisted on it. It certainly wasn't the best plan - she was horrible at undercover, it was pure luck that the entire thing didn't boomerang on them, and there were easily better plans that could've been made up on the spot, that didn't involve putting any lives in danger (ie, like the Hostage situation in "Snow Day" - they probably would've gotten the same results had they made contact with the criminals).

I didn't think she was any more frightened than Danny seemed to be in "Raising Shane" when he went into the bar to face the killer alone. It's a scary situation, and it's nice that there's an attempt made to inject some realism into it. I just don't see a fear of guns from her, and don't think she could do the job she does if she had a real fear of guns.

It might not be a fear of guns specifically, maybe just a fear of getting shot...or Mac may just be coddling her. Either way, it's something I've noticed fairly consistently throughout the series.

Yeah, but I think the same thing can be said of Hawkes or Adam as well. Mac, Stella, Danny and Flack handle most of the action--that's just been the way it is. The cases where it's been otherwise seem to be more happenstance than anything else (Hawkes and Adam in "Snow Day," Lindsay in "Not What It Looks Like").

Totally true about Lindsay never being held accountable. But Mac wasn't really held accountable in "Pay Up", either, and that's why I thought he was the only real one making things about himself: using Angell's death to escalate the personal vendetta with Dunbrook, thus sort-of demanding that Dunbrook and his team take notice of his pain (though he barely spoke to Angell). And then was appeased when Dunbrook did (the honorary Angell-section in the paper...I think that would've gone over better had Dunbrook done it for Flack, not for Mac).

Oh, I'm totally with you on Mac! He gets away with so much sometimes... and is so sanctimonious about everything that my eyes roll. His team goes along with it and he is rarely sanctioned. I loved the arc at the end of season three with Clay Dobson because finally, finally Mac was getting called to the carpet for some of his shoddy behavior. And I thought there were real shades of grey there as to who was right and who was wrong. If Lindsay got called out on her behavior like that, I'd probably have less of a problem with her.

True, but ideally, Danny wouldn't have followed her out. The interrogation would've continued. She would've disappeared, gotten over it, and come back with no one paying special attention to her issue... things wouldn't have become about her. That's why I thought she was trying to stop things from becoming all about her when she ran out - the interrogation was disrupted when she visibly snapped during it, but things did not have to come to a screeching halt just because she ran out. Had it been anyone else in the interrogation room with her (Flack certainly, Hawkes, Mac, maybe even Stella), they probably wouldn't have.

She blew up at a suspect in an interrogation and ran out. She tanked the interrogation with her behavior--Danny chasing after her just made it official that it was done. I don't think there was anything he could have done to salvage the interrogation once her unprofessional outburst derailed it. Not only did she made what happened to Stella all about her--but she also hampered another case.

I've thought about it a lot and I still can't decide. At times during early S4, Lindsay seemed to be very aware that Danny's walls were there (her stung expression in "The Deep", the way she was kind of warily watching him after she put the condom spray in his pocket in "Can You Hear Me Now?")...but then the very next time you saw them interact, it would be like things were golden again. Makes me think she was just ignoring the signs. But then you add in all that extra cheerfulness from early-S4, and I'm left wondering if maybe she was just too happy in that "brand-new-relationship" stage to even pay attention to the wall.

I think it comes back to her wanting Danny to be who she wants him to be and not who he is. She misses the signs because she's not looking for them--so long as it's enough that he'll flirt with her and presumably sleep with her, she's getting what she wants. You have to be really in tune with someone to notice if they're sending out little warning signals like he was... and she isn't.

That kind of leaves them at a stalemate, because I think Lindsay's issues kept her from making the grand gesture Danny seemed to require. Unless his life (or job) were in danger, which does sometimes seem like that's what it takes for Lindsay to do the grand-gesture thing. Mac went through the wringer with Danny in S1, definitely, but I think even he had it slightly easier...for one thing, I don't think he was as emotionally invested (he seemed upset by Danny's not trusting him, but I doubt he was actually hurt by it), and for another...Danny didn't trust him, but at least he let Mac in on that. Danny told Mac what was bothering him about the situation, didn't he? (Both mid-episode, and at the end in the office?)

See, I think Danny has put Mac and Flack through just as much as he has Lindsay. Danny was a major source of frustration for Mac in season one. He was trying and rebellious and downright childish. And it pissed Mac off. But Mac cared enough to confront him. Lindsay doesn't.

Danny protested more than once, in "Crime and Misdemeanour" (Mac came in already shouting, but Danny held his own until right before Mac's last few words), and in "On the Job" in the office.

It's been a long time since I've seen these episodes, but I remember Danny shutting down--and even physically recoiling slightly--when Mac got pissed in "Crime & Misdemeanor." In "On the Job," he didn't say a single word when Mac laid into him outside of the IAB interrogation room. When he does protest, he sticks up for himself for a while and then eventually shuts down.

And both those times, Mac's tone was far harsher from the start than Lindsay's was when she was all "That's what this is, me mad at you?" (upon which he said his lunch line.) Her tone did indicate that she was upset with him, but so did Mac's in those two examples, and even slightly in "Run Silent". But Danny still said his piece then. Heck, even in "Oedipus Hex", Lindsay sounded snappier than she did in the office in RND, and Danny still snapped back at her. First time I watched RND, I was actually surprised Danny didn't start snapping right back during that speech, but that's what made me think his expression and his refusal to answer during the pause wasn't about shutting down. He wasn't looking at her - but only when she was accusing him of all those things he actually was guilty of (grieving on his own, thinking of her as shallow). Not saying that he didn't have his reasons for doing all those things, but he was still guilty of them. And it was when she actually did start getting comparatively harsh after the pause that he started looking at her. Which is usually what he does when he shuts down - he looked directly at Mac in both "C&M" and "On the Job", though you could practically see him mentally shutting down anyway.

Danny was far, far more vulnerable in RND (and during the Ruben arc) than he ever has been on the show, with the exception of the end of RSRD after Louie got beat up--and then he just kind of fell apart in front of Mac. I think Danny was shutting down--it was too much for him--but also that yeah, sure, he felt guilty because if someone lays into Danny it does make him feel bad about himself. He was the same way with Mac in season one. I don't think he was necessarily guilty of those things, but hearing that he made her feel that way made him feel guilty, if that makes sense.

I'm still not seeing much evidence that he had anything more to say after the RND-blow-up, that he didn't say in PF. Even if he wasn't able to define what it was he wanted from her or what to say to her, I think he still would've felt an urgency to say it - if it was pressing enough. Why not say it after she'd already come over in PF? Once she was at his place and he could at least know she had to listen (or walk back to her own place in the rain)?

By the time he got her over to his place in PF, he'd given up on whatever he wanted to say to her at the end of RND. He went for the groveling and the sex, two things he knew she'd respond to. Again, it comes back to her not really wanting to see him as a real person--she just wants that perfect boyfriend who will do be what she wants him to be... sweet and devoted. The fact that she didn't care about his emotional needs at all after a child died on his watch makes me question how deep her care for him really goes.

I wasn't really referring to any of the pre-fight stuff, though - I was thinking more about LWFM, and whether Lindsay's refusal to watch a movie with him should say anything about unconditional love or not (even to Danny). I really think at that point in LWFM, Danny didn't feel like he had to do anything about the fact that she was in love with him, though he was still kind of using that fact to test her. Like expecting that if she really was in love with him, she'd totally want to spend extra time with him whenever, as friends. I think if she'd said yes, it would have just been an ordinary friend-date, maybe with her feelings being the "elephant in the room": there, but mostly ignored.

Maybe, or maybe he would have used it as a way to say what he wanted to at the end of RND. It's hard to know. I don't blame her for not wanting to see the movie with him, though. It's the not hearing him out after she said her piece that's low.

That's definitely true, and I do think her wanting him played a certain role in accepting the proposal the second time; although if that were a primary factor, I really think she would've accepted the proposal the first time. The only thing that changed from the first to the second was that it probably became easier to pretend he really felt the same way (since, he was actually implying it this time). But ugh, she seems to know on some level what's really driving all the proposals and "I love yous" and stuff, so it comes off as borderline self-destructive to me in a pretty weird way, and very contrary to the end of S4. If she knows all that, she has to also know she's basically there for as long as he wants/needs her there.

He played the part she wanted him to, so she was happy. Or at least happy enough. I think she kind of made it clear the terms she wanted him on, and by playing into that, he essentially accepted those terms. I think it's equally clear that he was doing it so as not to lose his child/have a happy family (or the illusion of one), but that was apparently enough. Man, what a messed up relationship!!

Well, he assumed she didn't want to hear it - if there was anything else he wanted her to hear - although I don't think that was the case. But if it was that important to him, even if he wasn't sure exactly what it was he wanted, or how to define it, I can't see him just giving up on saying it.

But he didn't give up, at least not right away! He tried first at the end of RND, possibly again in LWFM (if the movie thing was just a ruse), and then at the beginning of PF. That's a lot for someone who shuts down when faced with opposition. By the time he got her on the phone, he was obviously desperate to get her to not hang up on him--so he went with what he knew would work.

Yeah, the tests definitely seem ongoing, even after one has gotten through the walls. I don't know that Danny expects Flack to put up with his behaviour more than the others, though. Being ditched at a diner or having to chase him around town aren't minor things, but in comparison to some of the things Danny's put the others through, they do fall kind of short (not AitF, but the diner thing). And we've seen him test the others with those things more often than we've seen him test Flack. Additionally, I do think the trust thing is a huge issue - at the very least, Flack never has to worry about being completely shut out.

Because Flack pushes to be let in. He's constantly pushing with Danny. Yes, Danny sometimes gives him openings, but he was really running in "All in the Family." He made it very difficult for Flack--and here Flack was just doing this to help him out. Aside from Danny, there was nothing stopping Flack from arresting Rikki. And really, Danny couldn't have stopped him either, but he didn't out of consideration and care for Danny. And this is after Danny made things really difficult for him. So I think Danny is trying, even for Flack, who he does let in somewhat. It's just that Flack also gets to see his cute, funny, sweet side. But then, so do others. Danny's been a lot nicer to Lindsay and gone out of his way more for her than he ever has for Flack or Mac.

I could see how that would be annoying But it wasn't like Danny ordered half the menu, he might've gotten a coffee, if that. And given that it was a diner, he'd probably already paid for it. Additionally, it was a New York diner - it's always embarrassing to be stormed out on in public, but I doubt anyone else even looked up. In that context, for me, I would've gotten over it fast if I knew it wasn't about me; and I can't see Flack having had an issue with it.

The diner thing isn't that big a deal, but I think it does show how much patience Flack has when it comes to Danny. Danny was really frustrating in that scene... and then after all Flack does to reassure him, Danny storms out. And yet, next time we see Flack, he's back to tirelessly working the case in the hopes of clearing Danny.

 

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I'm not sure Flack telling Danny that he had his back would've stopped him from storming out, just because I'm still really convinced that Danny instinctively knew that. (And slightly because the other time we've seen Flack say that, Danny kind of walked out anyway, in AitF.) I think there was a personal element to Danny's behaviour, because in that meeting he really seemed to be looking for some sort of reassurance that he never seemed to get - hence the storming out - but I don't think that reassurance was ever supposed to come from Flack. Flack was already telling Danny (basically) that things would be okay, if he trusted Mac. But I think Danny called that meeting to vent. I don't think he stormed out because of something Flack said or didn't say, or didn't do...that's why I don't see his leaving as being personal against Flack.

Yeah, I think Danny asked for Flack to come so he could vent, but I also think he wanted to be reassured by Flack. And that's exactly what Flack was trying to do, but Danny worked himself up as he vented. That, and Flack didn't really seem to know exactly what Danny wanted to hear. I think Danny wanted Flack to tell him it was all going to be okay and people knew he didn't do this on purpose, whereas Flack was being logical and saying, "Mac's on the case." He couldn't really tell Danny it would all work out because really, what if it didn't? That was a possibility. And I think Flack knew that, but he was trying, without making false promises. Flack was there as a friend, not as a colleague, so I still think Danny storming out had to feel at least kind of personal. But Flack obviously knew Danny pretty well at that point and made allowances.

Lindsay had to have gotten at least part of the story already from Flack [I mean, I think she got it from somewhere, since I don't see her being okay with the fact that they both suddenly vanished; and she clearly didn't get it from Danny]. So if she did approach Danny about the skipped shift, I think she would've broached the subject from that angle. I can so see the irritability thing happening (in her defense, she had every reason to be irritated), but while irritability isn't likely to get anyone to open up, I've never seen it stop Danny from either venting or defending his actions; like he did with Stella in "Party's Over", when she came over already angry.

Danny wasn't sleeping with Stella in "The Party's Over"--he probably expected a little understanding from someone he was intimate with. Or concern and curiosity about what he was going through given how much he'd supported her.

She said it was a bad excuse, because she knew it was a bad excuse for her behaviour, not because she thought the excuse wouldn't fly. If there was anyone she could've assumed the excuse would fly with, it should have been Mac. I'm not seeing how she would've assumed she couldn't BS Mac if she really thought she could BS Stella - Mac indulges her far more often than Stella does.

It was a bad excuse, and she was smart enough to recognize it--but it was still her first impulse to make that excuse and to try to foist the blame/responsibility off on someone else. That says a lot about her character in my book.

My interpretation of it has always been that Flack doesn't have to do that sort of stuff, all or even most of the time. I mean, they've totally got a great bromance, and there are times when friends need you to really put yourself on the line for them. But what really makes me think that Danny trusts Flack a lot more than he does anyone else, is the way that for the most part, Danny doesn't put him through the wringer. Danny's not exactly as considerate as he could be when it comes to Flack, but there's a lot more leeway and work-together-ness (I can't think of a better word right now ) that he gives with Flack that he doesn't give with Mac, Lindsay, Louie, even Stella, etc.

I do think Flack puts a lot of work into Danny, and a lot of care. Even stuff like meeting Danny at the bar in "Comes Around" to reassure him about the trial and their jobs shows just how much he cares about Danny's emotional well being. Sure, Flack gets a lot of the nice stuff, too. He plays basketball with Danny and throws back drinks with him. But he's also the one Danny leans on emotionally, and that takes some work. And he doesn't seem to ask for/get that support back from Danny. So I do think Flack puts up with a lot, though he probably wouldn't put it in those exact words.

Did she treat him like a yo-yo after he'd shown her that he'd still be there? I really can't count the Season-4 fallout as her treating him like the yo-yo, since it really seemed like he'd dropped her first.

She treated him like a yo-yo in season three, after he'd already shown her a lot of support. Even when they were dating in season five, she was treating him like a yo-yo--he was good enough to sleep with, but not good enough to know he was going to be a dad.

If you think they've already said what they had to say (as in "you've been dumped", which I'm still pretty convinced was what Danny had to say in RND), I don't think you're under obligation to hear what they have to say afterward. At least not right away. Especially not if you think what they have to say is just going to hurt you more. You do hear someone out when you care about them, but for me, the rule does not apply as strongly when you know it'll lead to you being/feeling hurt. I just think there's a line, where caring about someone should not come back to "putting yourself through pain for someone"; that line would exist whether Lindsay were dating Danny or Flack or whoever. I know there's always a degree of pain in "serious" relationships, but I really think it gets unhealthy after that line is crossed.

I know Lindsay obviously didn't know for sure what Danny might've said had they talked earlier than PF; but she also had absolutely no reason to think that it was anything other than "you've been dumped". Which she'd already gotten the gist of. Maybe "and here's why", but I don't see how that would've hurt less, or why she had to hear it right then. He'd been sending "dumped" signals before and during RND, there was the "I'm sorry" line, there was the way his next real words to her were "let's rent a movie" (not the best way to say "let's have a serious talk"). By the time "PF" rolled around - the only time he seriously indicated that there was more to talk about - if you ask me, she had even less reason to believe so.

See, before we got into this conversation, I never thought for a second he was going to say, "It's over" to her. It never even crossed my mind. She pretty much ended it when she told him she had to get over being in love with him--why would he then say, "Yeah, you are going to have to get over it because we're done." I admit, after we've talked about it, I can see that it was a possibility he was going to say it, but I still don't think it was a guarantee by any means. I think she owed it to him to hear his side.

Actually, I'm a little torn on it too. I do think she loves him, simply because she puts up with so much more from him than I think I would put up with from any boyfriend. [I realize it'd always take a lot to care about Danny in a good way. But that's what makes me think that those persons who do care - as in, the ones who seem especially emotionally invested: Flack, Lindsay, Aiden, maybe even Mac - just by default have to love him quite a bit to put up with what they do for/from him.] But it really seems like a kind of love I could see her easily getting over - if he'd let her or if it became necessary. I don't know if simple "want", or anything less than some version of genuine love would match with her behaviour, though. I mean, she married the guy, knowing at least partly that between the two of them, she's the only one who feels anything even remotely romantic. Even if it's just want, she's setting herself up for a painful fall - and I'm not sure desire would be enough of a motive to knowingly do that. Again, it seems self-destructive to me. If it were about desire, she could just have him after she got back from Montana, without worrying about his insecurities.

I think she wants him on her terms, and if it looks like she's going to get that, she's happy with it. She's certainly seemed happy with him since he's fallen into line. I think it kind of goes back to her behavior from season four when she ignored the signs that maybe he wasn't happy with her/their relationship. In the same way in season five, she's ignoring the fact that he clearly doesn't want to lose his child and sees her as part of the package--at least once he puts up a convincing enough performance. I think she loves the version of him she wants to see--the sweet, caring, affectionate doormat--but not really the whole package. And he lets her get away with that.

If she didn't give him any opening, how would she also be expecting him to stick around? Even "Oedipus Hex" just made it seem like she was more focused on pushing him away hard, than on reeling him in. I don't think it's that she thinks of him as a prop, I think it's that she thinks of him as her. And usually treats him as though he's feeling the same things as her. [In early-S3, assuming he wasn't as emotionally invested because she wasn't as emotionally invested; in early-S4, assuming (though fairly, it has to be admitted) he was invested because she was invested; in late-S4, assuming he'd want his space because she'd want her space, etc.]

I just watched RSRD again, and one of the things I focused on was their interactions. The way she was when she brought him the DNA and then later when she looked at him as he gave up his badge--I think she was already emotionally invested at that point. I think she really liked him, a lot. Otherwise, why care about what he's going through? Why give him the DNA and not just follow protocol and bring it to the boss? Why stare at him achingly through the window? Why ask him if he's okay? I think she was into him, a lot, but when her crap came up and she needed to put it on hold, she just figured he could, too--another indication that he's really more of a prop than a real person with real feelings of his own, independent of hers.

To be fair, Danny is often a mirror, and I think his feelings are more of a mirror of hers than independent... he got interested once she did. But Danny can't turn emotions on and off like that.

Or being the only one to defend him at the office during a bad decision in "Party's Over", or calling him on the hour/every few hours (I think even Danny would've gotten fed up with that!), or agreeing to a shotgun wedding and a mostly-loveless marriage... (That's what made that whole thing really sketchy to me, aside from Danny's obvious neediness. I'm so not seeing how Lindsay would have found it romantic enough to agree if it were all about the illusion, no matter what Danny said to convince her. If she were seeing him as a lapdog, I think she would've at least demanded an actual wedding.)

I don't know... do you think Lindsay is the type to want a real wedding? I think she just wanted him. She wanted to be convinced, and she was... I don't think she really cared about the wedding. Which, kudos to her because people make way too big a deal of weddings :lol: , but still... Danny's vulnerabilities and insecurities were pretty much all hanging out in that scene.

Additionally, Danny didn't need her to be there for him before he found out about the baby. Her not telling him about the baby had nothing to do with her not supporting him or seeing him as a prop - hell, she probably thought she was doing him a favour by "not expecting anything from him". It does show that Lindsay doesn't really know Danny, but she's certainly not the first woman to assume the father of their child would see it as a favour if the mother wasn't expecting anything from them. About 7 times out of 10, the women who assume that are actually right. The fathers would prefer not to be involved. Even in CSI: Miami they kind of highlighted that, didn't they (with Eric/Natalia)?

Was it that, though, or was it that she had her doubts about him? It's hard to know. Danny certainly seemed to think she had her doubts about him. Even if she wasn't expecting anything in return, it's not like she could hide that she was pregnant from him for very long. It was pretty thoughtless of her--and once again not thinking of his feelings or his reaction to it. She just doesn't really consider his feelings at all, ever.

She's never made an effort the way Flack or Mac have, but she has gone at least as far as Aiden has for Danny (putting her job in jeopardy), which makes me think that has more to do with lack of opportunity than anything else. And I don't think Danny's pacifying had one iota to do with Lindsay's change, mostly because it really seems she hasn't bought into the pacifying. Not after PF (even if she did go over to his place, things clearly weren't golden afterward), and not during/after the proposal in "The Triangle". Additionally, I really don't think Flack would ever be the one to do the kowtowing - I think it'd have to be Lindsay who made all the effort.

She wanted the fantasy back from end of season three/early season four--once she got it, she seemed happy. Really happy, actually.

Wouldn't that fall under the heading of wanting to see her unhappy? Actually, I wouldn't blame Flack for being thrilled had D/L ended, but I don't think he would've been thrilled that Lindsay actually got hurt because of it - and being fair, Lindsay seemed tons more injured by the actual breakup than Danny did.

I honestly don't think Flack cares about whether Lindsay is hurt or not--I definitely don't think he wants it, but I think it's likely he wants Danny out of that relationship, whether that hurts Lindsay or not. Flack's priority is Danny, not Lindsay. He wants Danny to be happy.

I don't know, his "That's what girlfriends are for" line to Aiden in "Tanglewood" (when she asked him if he'd ever been to a massage parlour before), along with his come-on to her in "Crime and Misdemeanour" seemed pretty confident-cocky to me...although generally, he was a lot more cocky in S1 than he was in later seasons. I've always found it endearing, but it took a while for me to see insecurity in him despite that.

See, I read the girlfriends line totally differently--he was basically saying he wasn't a scuzz who went to prostitutes for sex. He sleeps with people he's dating--not people he's paying. Which doesn't seem cocky or sleazy to me at all. As for the C&M thing, I thought it was kind of cute--he was totally just teasing/complimenting her without actually hitting on her, since he had the "if we didn't work together" part. I liked Danny and Aiden's flirty banter quite a bit. I guess I've never really seen Danny as out and out cocky. I don't think he actually thinks a lot of himself.

I remember seeing that interview of Eddie Cahill's too, and yeah, I don't think he confides in many people, but I don't know how much of that has to do with fondness. He's very fond of Danny, but doesn't really confide in him. Yet Mac, and to some extent Stella (who granted, he's pretty close with, though he doesn't seem as fond as he does with Danny) are the only real two he does confide in. I agree that whatever connection Flack and Lindsay have is pretty limited to their bantering, but he seems to trust her enough that I could picture a connection possibly growing there. I mean, he started fighting with his sister in plain view of Lindsay, which I thought indicated some level of trust, given how private Flack usually is (when he started fighting with Sam in "Veritas", he specifically made sure they were in a private area - and then made sure it was Danny, his best friend, who interrogated her in that same episode).

Mac and Stella are equals in his eyes. Mac and Stella are both incredibly strong--kind of like Flack is. Whereas Danny is emotional and needy... someone Flack needs to protect and take care of. I don't think Flack fighting with Sam showed any real trust in Lindsay--his irritation with his sister just overrode the fact that he was with a colleague.

Lol, I totally agree with "Special Snowflake", although I think it gives the "ordinary-girl" gimmick a little more substance than it seems to have, especially in its appeal with fans. It kind of implies that it's about the girl's inner attractions, which is definitely a gimmick on its own, but I'm not sure has much to do with the attraction of the "other guys". Like, Wickham and Cleaver and...not Jacob, but all the other guys from Bella's school, really seem to be attracted to Elizabeth/Bridget/Bella/etc, on a more superficial level. That "specialness" kind of seems reserved for only the "Twu Luv!"-boyfriend-character(s) to notice. The other guys are pretty much just attracted looks-wise: which allows the Ordinary Girl to be all "Oh, I'm not pretty at all. I just happen to have a carpet of guys at my feet, ready for the taking. Don't ask me why." (Also trademark Mary-Sue: and I love Elizabeth Bennet, but even she had this aspect to her; what with all the talk about Jane being "five times prettier", despite Elizabeth being the one who had three, possibly four men attracted to her, while Jane just had the one)

She gets to be a knockout without actually being a knockout, since she sees herself as plain. If she acknowledges to herself that she's pretty, she stops being "Ordinary Girl" and becomes the sassy "homecoming queen" who knows her effect on guys...hence, she stops being relate-able. I mean, God forbid that a girl have a little self-esteem about her looks (the way Stella and Angell do). And if she actually is plain-plain, then realistically, guys are not falling all over themselves for her all the time. Where's the fun in that? That's why I think they really play on the "ordinary-girl-next-door" looks-aspect with Belknap/Lindsay...who, whether one sees her as pretty or not, has certainly looked more striking in magazine shoots and stuff than she usually does in CSI: NY.

(LOL, sorry if I sound too sarcastic...it's something that gets to me.)

It's one of my pet peeves, too. That and the fact that the beautiful girl is supposed to go for the nerdy guy because he's nice... even though the only reason he wants the beautiful girl is because she's beautiful. :lol:

My problem with Lindsay is that in addition to being plain, she's just not nice a lot of the time. If she was actually sweet and nice and caring, I'd get why Danny likes her. As it is, I don't really see the appeal. The one good thing is that they never had multiple guys going after her--I don't even think a suspect has ever even hit on her (which seems to happen to everyone). So that at least has been realistic.

Oh my gosh, two posts and I still went overboard with the writing *facepalm* Sorry if I cut some things out!

Me too! :lol: