Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

[Maya316]

Well, she doesn't just have one tactic... no one does. She played the "poor me" card with Mac, which, let's face it, some women use on men because they know they can. It doesn't work so well with other women, but with an older guy who's already been a bit of a softy with her? Yeah. Uck.

None of the other characters have even one tactic to "get out of trouble scot-free", there's no reason to assume Lindsay has a whole arsenal of them in case one doesn't work. And even less proof to support that, I think; because Lindsay had already taken responsibility and still Mac gave her the "it's okay", by the time she brought up her problems with Danny. People let her off for things, and that's annoying, but it says more about them (or more accurately, about the writing on the show) than it does about Lindsay.

I didn't think she was any more frightened than Danny seemed to be in "Raising Shane" when he went into the bar to face the killer alone. It's a scary situation, and it's nice that there's an attempt made to inject some realism into it. I just don't see a fear of guns from her, and don't think she could do the job she does if she had a real fear of guns.

I wasn't thinking so much about the fear - that might have been the same with both Danny and Lindsay. If Danny had had a choice, he probably wouldn't have opted to join Shane in the bar, because he was (naturally) afraid. But Danny didn't have a choice. Shane specifically called him out. Lindsay otoh wasn't called on to go into that apartment, not in the same way. Like I said, it was hardly the best-laid plan. She chose to go in, that's why I think they were trying to say something specific about Lindsay's fears with that episode. She usually doesn't go into situations where she might get shot - most people don't choose to, that's true - but she did it because a teenage girl was about to be shot. It's one of the few anomalies we've seen with the way she's generally kept away from those situations, and I think that's the reason why.

Yeah, but I think the same thing can be said of Hawkes or Adam as well. Mac, Stella, Danny and Flack handle most of the action--that's just been the way it is. The cases where it's been otherwise seem to be more happenstance than anything else (Hawkes and Adam in "Snow Day," Lindsay in "Not What It Looks Like").

Hawkes and Adam both have a reason for that, though. Adam's a lab tech. Hawkes is still a doctor. Neither of them are even qualified to carry a gun, not by the police department (it's only in Season 6 when Hawkes finally becomes qualified, isn't it?). What's Lindsay's excuse? She's a fully-licensed police officer, yet they keep her away from those "armed" situations as though she weren't qualified to carry a gun. For me, the only way that makes sense is if they're actually paying attention to Lindsay's backstory as they've laid it out.

Oh, I'm totally with you on Mac! He gets away with so much sometimes... and is so sanctimonious about everything that my eyes roll. His team goes along with it and he is rarely sanctioned. I loved the arc at the end of season three with Clay Dobson because finally, finally Mac was getting called to the carpet for some of his shoddy behavior. And I thought there were real shades of grey there as to who was right and who was wrong. If Lindsay got called out on her behavior like that, I'd probably have less of a problem with her.

Agreed. I usually dislike characters who are "untouchable", so to speak - can do no wrong no matter how they act, yada yada. Lindsay's definitely the one exception, but it'd just be so much more fun and fulfilling to see her called out once in a while. For something she did, not just because someone needed to vent and used her as a scapegoat.

She blew up at a suspect in an interrogation and ran out. She tanked the interrogation with her behavior--Danny chasing after her just made it official that it was done. I don't think there was anything he could have done to salvage the interrogation once her unprofessional outburst derailed it. Not only did she made what happened to Stella all about her--but she also hampered another case.

Warrick, Catherine, and I think Sara from CSI Vegas have all lost their cool in the middle of interrogations before, have accordingly been kicked out and the interrogations continued on. In the Miami episode where Eric was shot, Ryan practically attacked a suspect during an interrogation (and I've lost track of how many interrogations he's lost his cool in), and it still continued on without a hitch. Not to mention "The Deep" from CSI: NY where Mac threw a suspect against the wall. It doesn't make sense that Lindsay losing her cool would've tanked either the interrogation or the case - especially if she removed herself from the interrogation as soon as she realized she'd lost her cool. If that were true, these CSIs wouldn't solve half of their cases. Had Danny stayed in the interrogation room and kept going, the interrogation would've been fine.

See, I think Danny has put Mac and Flack through just as much as he has Lindsay. Danny was a major source of frustration for Mac in season one. He was trying and rebellious and downright childish. And it pissed Mac off. But Mac cared enough to confront him. Lindsay doesn't.

When Danny has a problem, he never works to hide it from Mac. Not even if the problem is with Mac himself. From Season 1 [C&M: "Sorry, that was out of line"] to Season 2 [RSRD: "I don't need a boss, I need a friend"] to Season 4 (talking to him about Ruben in "Child's Play" - it really doesn't matter why he ran out before Lindsay came in, he still was able to talk to Mac). And I really don't think he ever tries to hide his problems from Flack - sometimes even seeking him out specifically just so he can vent to him. It's not the same with Lindsay at all. It was almost pointed how he was shutting her out/not venting to her during the Ruben crisis. I personally think he's had a problem with her being his girlfriend since the beginning of Season 4, but he's never let her in on that either. Even when Lindsay confronted him (RND), he didn't let anything spill.

Danny puts all of them through the wringer equally, I agree, but I do think it's easier for Mac/Flack when he actually lets them know what the problem is.

It's been a long time since I've seen these episodes, but I remember Danny shutting down--and even physically recoiling slightly--when Mac got pissed in "Crime & Misdemeanor." In "On the Job," he didn't say a single word when Mac laid into him outside of the IAB interrogation room. When he does protest, he sticks up for himself for a while and then eventually shuts down.

He shut down in C&M at the end, but he held his own for a pretty good time before doing that. I don't remember the conversation outside the IAB room in "On the Job", but I do remember the conversation in Mac's office at the end of the episode, and Danny was still fighting a bit then, even though he again shut down toward the end. In RND, he shut down at the beginning of the fight. That's what doesn't make sense.

By the time he got her over to his place in PF, he'd given up on whatever he wanted to say to her at the end of RND. He went for the groveling and the sex, two things he knew she'd respond to. Again, it comes back to her not really wanting to see him as a real person--she just wants that perfect boyfriend who will do be what she wants him to be... sweet and devoted. The fact that she didn't care about his emotional needs at all after a child died on his watch makes me question how deep her care for him really goes.

Actually, that thing in PF for me highlighted all the reasons I'm certain Danny didn't have anything to say in/after RND besides "we're over". I mean, we have to think - why was he groveling in the first place? He wasn't calling to get back together (cold spell between PF and "The Box" indicates they didn't get back together, at least not in any good way). He clearly wasn't calling to work on their relationship, or even on the reasons they were mad at each other. He just suddenly decided he wanted her back for whatever - maybe to have another person in his life he "knew" loved him, maybe for another good time, I'm still not sure. Either way, the phone call showed me he didn't have much else to say in RND because it really just continued that whole behaviour-cycle Danny has when it comes to Lindsay: when she's actually there and interested, he's all but bored to tears (even in S2, his interest was .. casual, at very best). It's when she suddenly decides to leave for whatever reason that he goes all nuts and groveling and chasing her all over the lab, etc. It happened in S3, and I was :brickwall: when it happened again in S4. And I think if he'd had an important revelation in RND about Lindsay or their relationship, then he would've broken that cycle rather than just continued it.

That's what I think it has to come back to, because though we might disagree on it, it really doesn't matter what Lindsay is seeing him as (although to be honest, Danny hasn't really been the perfect devoted boyfriend for about two years and counting now). When she found out he wasn't it, she'd've just left...as she's done. Danny's inability to let go of something he's never even wanted in the first place, that's the problem.

He played the part she wanted him to, so she was happy. Or at least happy enough. I think she kind of made it clear the terms she wanted him on, and by playing into that, he essentially accepted those terms. I think it's equally clear that he was doing it so as not to lose his child/have a happy family (or the illusion of one), but that was apparently enough. Man, what a messed up relationship!!

His true reasons were apparently enough for Lindsay... which is both creepy and mind-boggling, but also not the terms I'd imagine she ideally wants him on. I mean, I'm finding it tough to believe her ideal is a guy who only wants her for the child she's carrying, no matter how he tries to play it otherwise. So I think if it were about the terms she wanted, she just couldn't have said yes. So messed up, ick

But he didn't give up, at least not right away! He tried first at the end of RND, possibly again in LWFM (if the movie thing was just a ruse), and then at the beginning of PF. That's a lot for someone who shuts down when faced with opposition. By the time he got her on the phone, he was obviously desperate to get her to not hang up on him--so he went with what he knew would work.

And after she was already at his place in PF? If it was something that was really on his mind, why just let it go once he knew she was going to have to listen? (Or run out into the rain, if she refused to) We got no indication that anything important had been said between Danny and Lindsay after PF...and very little indication that Danny had something urgent to say to her even before PF.

Because Flack pushes to be let in. He's constantly pushing with Danny. Yes, Danny sometimes gives him openings, but he was really running in "All in the Family." He made it very difficult for Flack--and here Flack was just doing this to help him out.

Flack went through hell in "AitF", but I'm still not seeing that a lot of excessive pushing was required to make Danny talk, and it didn't seem like Danny was purposely hiding from Flack. At the beginning of the search, Danny was in the first place Flack looked (the bail-office). He certainly didn't pull what he did in "Child's Play" with Lindsay when it came to Flack - even though he was already on his way out of the bail-office, he stopped for Flack. That doesn't say "running" to me. He gave up the numbers with no fuss, and the closest he came to running was maybe when he didn't answer Flack's call later in the episode.

Aside from Danny, there was nothing stopping Flack from arresting Rikki. And really, Danny couldn't have stopped him either, but he didn't out of consideration and care for Danny. And this is after Danny made things really difficult for him.

Yeah, I can see how that would raise trust in Flack, although Flack's been lenient before with suspects that others on the team either know or care about (Marty Pino, for example). But waiting to arrest Rikki doesn't exactly seem like the hugest sacrifice - I mean, it wasn't like with Marty Pino, who was suspected of murder. Rikki stole a gun and pointed it at Danny, but she never did anything, she wasn't exactly a threat to the public.

It's just that Flack also gets to see his cute, funny, sweet side. But then, so do others. Danny's been a lot nicer to Lindsay and gone out of his way more for her than he ever has for Flack or Mac.

But everyone gets to see Danny's cute, funny side - and his go-out-of-his-way side too, for that matter. Danny goes out of his way for Stella and Hawkes at least as much, if not more than he does for Lindsay, Flack, and Mac. That's not really what I was getting at. I meant that Danny makes it very difficult for people who want to care about him, and go out of their way for him. And I don't really see him making it so much harder for Flack than he does for anyone else; if anything, I think it's the opposite. He's certainly a lot more open with Flack than he is with anyone else.

Yeah, I think Danny asked for Flack to come so he could vent, but I also think he wanted to be reassured by Flack. And that's exactly what Flack was trying to do, but Danny worked himself up as he vented. That, and Flack didn't really seem to know exactly what Danny wanted to hear. I think Danny wanted Flack to tell him it was all going to be okay and people knew he didn't do this on purpose, whereas Flack was being logical and saying, "Mac's on the case." He couldn't really tell Danny it would all work out because really, what if it didn't? That was a possibility. And I think Flack knew that, but he was trying, without making false promises. Flack was there as a friend, not as a colleague, so I still think Danny storming out had to feel at least kind of personal. But Flack obviously knew Danny pretty well at that point and made allowances.

I agree; I think Danny wanted to be told that "everything would be alright", but that's why I don't think he expected, or even wanted that reassurance to come from Flack. After all, Flack did say something along the lines of people not believing Danny did it on purpose - to which Danny just replied "it doesn't feel that way, I feel very alone". I definitely agree that Flack didn't want to make any false promises, but I'm not sure how badly Danny wanted to hear false promises...again, why I don't think the reassurance he wanted to hear could've ever come from Flack. If anything, I think he would've preferred to be told that "everything would be fine" from someone who could actually guarantee it...like ideally, Mac. I think Flack might've guessed that, which is why I think he just realized that Danny's storming out had nothing to do with him personally.

Danny wasn't sleeping with Stella in "The Party's Over"--he probably expected a little understanding from someone he was intimate with. Or concern and curiosity about what he was going through given how much he'd supported her.

I'd think that'd be more likely to make him defensive and vent-y. Especially given that he probably knew Lindsay had a point - if anyone deserved to know what went on during "AitF" it was her.

It was a bad excuse, and she was smart enough to recognize it--but it was still her first impulse to make that excuse and to try to foist the blame/responsibility off on someone else. That says a lot about her character in my book.

For me it says a lot more about her character that when she registers her mistakes, she either owns up to them or (like in "All Access", with running out after she blew up in the interrogation; or in "Oedipus Hex" with taking the mom herself at the end) tries to fix them. I see her do it all the time, the few times she's purposely written as making mistakes. I find it admirable because it's not always easy to do that, and even on the CSI shows there aren't that many characters who do it. It easily makes up for her nastier impulses, imo.

 

[Maya316]

I do think Flack puts a lot of work into Danny, and a lot of care. Even stuff like meeting Danny at the bar in "Comes Around" to reassure him about the trial and their jobs shows just how much he cares about Danny's emotional well being. Sure, Flack gets a lot of the nice stuff, too. He plays basketball with Danny and throws back drinks with him. But he's also the one Danny leans on emotionally, and that takes some work. And he doesn't seem to ask for/get that support back from Danny. So I do think Flack puts up with a lot, though he probably wouldn't put it in those exact words.

I agree that Flack puts a lot of work into Danny, and you can totally see that he cares for him a lot ("Comes Around" bar scene = my third-favourite S3 moment) but I don't think days like "AitF" are the norm for them. Flack doesn't seem to get or ask for the same kind of support he constantly gives Danny, but at the same time it'd totally be worthwhile to be Danny's friend even just for the good days. And for the bad days...it really doesn't seem like Flack's put through hell during them specifically because, like you said, Danny leans on him emotionally. Which means Flack knows what's going on, Danny doesn't shut him out. There's a lot of trust there, which makes any problem easier to deal with.

She treated him like a yo-yo in season three, after he'd already shown her a lot of support. Even when they were dating in season five, she was treating him like a yo-yo--he was good enough to sleep with, but not good enough to know he was going to be a dad.

Always assuming they were sleeping together between PF and "The Box" (it really didn't seem so, although I guess it's iffy), I doubt she was even thinking of Danny when she was hiding her pregnancy from him. She was most likely trying to work out her own feelings about it. (And being fair, he didn't need her to think of him - why would he? He didn't even know, and when he found out he didn't exactly care that she'd hidden it from him.) Obviously, he was going to figure out she was pregnant eventually, and I doubt she would've lied when he finally asked her about it. I'm not seeing yo-yo behaviour in S5.

ETA: Sorry, just remembered that Danny actually did care that she hadn't said anything about being pregnant earlier But I do think Lindsay had reasons for not saying anything, reasons that probably wouldn't exist if they were sleeping together and things were golden between them.

See, before we got into this conversation, I never thought for a second he was going to say, "It's over" to her. It never even crossed my mind. She pretty much ended it when she told him she had to get over being in love with him--why would he then say, "Yeah, you are going to have to get over it because we're done." I admit, after we've talked about it, I can see that it was a possibility he was going to say it, but I still don't think it was a guarantee by any means. I think she owed it to him to hear his side.

Actually, until we started this whole thread it never once occurred to me that Danny's "we should talk" at the end of RND meant anything other than "it's over" :lol:. I'd been picturing him ending it as early as "The Deep", to be honest. Long before "Child's Play" aired; and certainly in the episodes after "Child's Play". I thought that was the only thing the D/L in Season 4 could've been leading up to. Danny's always been disinterested when it came to Lindsay as a love-interest (S3 back then, seemed like it was more about the challenge than anything else), and entirely bored the whole time she was his girlfriend in Season 4. I thought RND was him finally, finally telling her that he wasn't that into her. I mean, of course she had to get over him, he was sleeping with Rikki for goodness' sake. He wouldn't have been doing that while under the impression that he and Lindsay were still a thing, not if he wasn't cheating. It was only natural that he'd actually tell Lindsay she had to get over him, even if he did it nicely. I don't see how Lindsay owed it to him to hear why he dumped her - at least not that soon. I really think the possibility that he'd been about to say something else in RND was just that - a possibility, and not one Lindsay had much reason to put faith in (given behaviour before, during, and slightly after RND).

I think she wants him on her terms, and if it looks like she's going to get that, she's happy with it. She's certainly seemed happy with him since he's fallen into line. I think it kind of goes back to her behavior from season four when she ignored the signs that maybe he wasn't happy with her/their relationship. In the same way in season five, she's ignoring the fact that he clearly doesn't want to lose his child and sees her as part of the package--at least once he puts up a convincing enough performance. I think she loves the version of him she wants to see--the sweet, caring, affectionate doormat--but not really the whole package. And he lets her get away with that.

Is it falling into line if he's there for the baby, not for her - and she knows it? I agree that she's ignoring signs now the way she ignored them in Season 4, but there's a notable difference in her behaviour from S4 and her behaviour now, which tells me she isn't completely blind this time. I think I said it earlier in this thread, but I can't imagine the perky, heart-on-her-sleeve!Lindsay from early-Season 4 waiting as long as S5!Lindsay did to tell Danny about a baby, had she gotten pregnant in early-S4. I certainly can't picture that Lindsay ever hesitating or saying no if Danny had asked her to marry him, even if he asked the way he did in "The Triangle", let alone "Green Piece". Her walls are still up when it comes to Danny, because she doesn't trust him the way she trusted that perfect-vision of him she saw in S4. And I think a big part of that lack of trust comes down to her knowing that he's pretending he's in love so that he doesn't lose his child. I actually think it'd be pretty impossible for her to see him as that S4!perfect-version at this point. Yet somehow she's still with him...I think she's still pretty clueless as far as Danny goes, but she's come a long way from only caring about him as that perfect-boyfriend.

I just watched RSRD again, and one of the things I focused on was their interactions. The way she was when she brought him the DNA and then later when she looked at him as he gave up his badge--I think she was already emotionally invested at that point. I think she really liked him, a lot. Otherwise, why care about what he's going through? Why give him the DNA and not just follow protocol and bring it to the boss? Why stare at him achingly through the window? Why ask him if he's okay? I think she was into him, a lot, but when her crap came up and she needed to put it on hold, she just figured he could, too--another indication that he's really more of a prop than a real person with real feelings of his own, independent of hers.

To be fair, Danny is often a mirror, and I think his feelings are more of a mirror of hers than independent... he got interested once she did. But Danny can't turn emotions on and off like that.

Well yeah, it comes back to both her compartmentalizing-personality and the way I think she sees Danny as herself. I can totally buy that she found herself caring very deeply for Danny, maybe more than she initially intended to (although it's quite a step from that to consciously deciding that she wanted a relationship with him)....she did seem into him in RSRD, but I do think she forced herself to turn it off when Season 3 came around. And assumed he'd do the same with no problem. It's not the greatest approach, but unless she sees herself as an inanimate prop as well, I don't think she does it out of inconsideration for him or his feelings.

I don't know... do you think Lindsay is the type to want a real wedding? I think she just wanted him. She wanted to be convinced, and she was... I don't think she really cared about the wedding. Which, kudos to her because people make way too big a deal of weddings :lol: , but still... Danny's vulnerabilities and insecurities were pretty much all hanging out in that scene.

I don't know if it's so much about the "real wedding" as it would be about wanting family there as you make such a huge life-choice, even if they were just there to watch you sign a marriage license at City Hall. I can imagine that Lindsay probably wasn't one of those girls who spent forever planning their perfect wedding (although honest, every girl thinks about it at least once :lol. But the hasty, undercover "wedding" came off really sketchy for me - no family at all, no one but their bosses present, etc. Especially since they indicated earlier in that episode that Lindsay was close enough to her mom to fly back to Montana, just so her mom could "see her pregnant". I have to think about how weird it would've seemed to anyone who didn't know Danny or Lindsay's story, like for example, her family in Montana. She steps off the plane, pregnant by a guy they've probably never met in their lives (assuming they'd even heard of him before then), and by the way, she married the guy yesterday afternoon, sorry she didn't even give them a phone call telling them she was getting married...I don't know, I think that would've gotten ridiculously uncomfortable :lol:. And I don't think it's something Lindsay would've chosen. I can't see how a wedding like that would help convince anyone that the guy really wanted her. It'd just make it painfully obvious that the guy married her for only one thing - legal rights to the baby. And even if Lindsay somehow didn't realize it at the end of Green Piece, I'd give it maybe two hours in Montana away from Danny before she either realized the obvious herself, or someone pointed it out to her. I think she had to care a lot about Danny to agree to that wedding.

Was it that, though, or was it that she had her doubts about him? It's hard to know. Danny certainly seemed to think she had her doubts about him. Even if she wasn't expecting anything in return, it's not like she could hide that she was pregnant from him for very long. It was pretty thoughtless of her--and once again not thinking of his feelings or his reaction to it. She just doesn't really consider his feelings at all, ever.

I don't know, I've seen something around before saying that Lindsay "trapped" Danny with the pregnancy...so when they actually talk about it and Lindsay basically tells Danny she's not planning on trapping him with the baby, I can't see it as inconsiderate or thoughtless. It can't be both ways. If Lindsay had told Danny about the pregnancy and immediately laid out what it was she expected from him, I think Danny would've felt trapped, and I for one would've found it inconsiderate of her. I can't believe I'm the only one who would think so. What Lindsay did instead came off better. Especially since she didn't flat-out tell him "I'm having a baby, and I don't want you to have anything to do with it" - she gave him the ultrasound picture and left him to think about it; and when he pushed she told him she wasn't expecting anything from him -- again, still leaving him with his options open, to stay or walk. I think that's consideration, consideration that a lot of fathers-to-be would probably appreciate getting. Not expecting anything does not translate to "stay away from me". It just shows that Lindsay doesn't know Danny as well as she may think she does, because I think she did expect him to walk. So yeah, I think she had her doubts about him. Given how shaky D/L are even on their good days, though, she had every reason to have her doubts.

She wanted the fantasy back from end of season three/early season four--once she got it, she seemed happy. Really happy, actually.

She never got it back. Danny from end of Season 3 hasn't been seen since end of Season 3, and she knows it. What in Season 5 would ever make Lindsay think that she had that fantasy-Danny back? He said a lot of nice things in S5, but he never once said "I love you" back in S3/early S4; and yet she seemed tons happier and easier with him back then than she does now. In S3, I think it was a lot more about what Danny did that made Lindsay fall for him, rather than about what he said. Lindsay doesn't buy what he says, so if she is happy, it's not because of what he's saying.

I honestly don't think Flack cares about whether Lindsay is hurt or not--I definitely don't think he wants it, but I think it's likely he wants Danny out of that relationship, whether that hurts Lindsay or not. Flack's priority is Danny, not Lindsay. He wants Danny to be happy.

I totally disagree. I think if Flack wants D/L to end, it's for both Danny and Lindsay's sakes. If it were just about Danny and what Danny wants to be happy, I think we wouldn't see Flack be so understanding when it comes to Lindsay. And this has nothing to do with getting in the middle of Danny's affairs, it has everything to do with how you respond to someone who's making your friend feel badly. In net totals, Danny and Lindsay have actually been split up for a longer time than they've been together over these four seasons. And for the majority of the split-up time, we're supposed to believe that it's Lindsay who's insisting on the split-up and Danny who's not happy about it (I thought S4 would've been different, until Danny suddenly decided he wanted Lindsay again). Yet some of the greatest Lindsay/Flack scenes have come when Lindsay and Danny are in break-up mode. If anything, I think it's more that Flack thinks she has the right mindset about her and Danny when they're off-again, rather than his just not caring that she's hurt. That's why he's comparatively nice to her even when D/L are off.

ETA to expand on this: I really think Flack thinks D and L are equally bad for each other because Flack seems more disinterested than ever in Season5 D/L and in Lucy, though S5 is probably the only time Danny's truly been invested in any part of his relationship with Lindsay; and Lucy makes Danny happy. I totally take that to mean he (like we, and possibly even like Lindsay herself) thinks that adding a baby to the DL mess is the last thing they need, let alone adding a marriage because of that baby.

See, I read the girlfriends line totally differently--he was basically saying he wasn't a scuzz who went to prostitutes for sex. He sleeps with people he's dating--not people he's paying. Which doesn't seem cocky or sleazy to me at all. As for the C&M thing, I thought it was kind of cute--he was totally just teasing/complimenting her without actually hitting on her, since he had the "if we didn't work together" part. I liked Danny and Aiden's flirty banter quite a bit. I guess I've never really seen Danny as out and out cocky. I don't think he actually thinks a lot of himself.

Oh, Danny/Aiden banter was the best part of Season 1!:lol: The thing is, the common factor in those lines is how he assumes girls would be more than happy to massage him/sleep with him, which is cute and all, but I'd think it takes a certain level of confidence to even joke about that out loud.

Mac and Stella are equals in his eyes. Mac and Stella are both incredibly strong--kind of like Flack is. Whereas Danny is emotional and needy... someone Flack needs to protect and take care of. I don't think Flack fighting with Sam showed any real trust in Lindsay--his irritation with his sister just overrode the fact that he was with a colleague.

His irritation with his sister being connected to a murder and bank-robbery in "Veritas" didn't stop him from finding a private place in the precinct before letting loose on her. And presumably, he works with the people at the precinct more often than he works with Lindsay and the other CSIs - he has his own team of cops, doesn't he? I call trust, as far as Lindsay goes. I can't see him losing it on Sam in front of just anyone. As for Mac and Stella, yeah, I think he sees them as equals, and that's why he confides in them. But I don't think it has anything to do with fondness. For example, it's Mac who gets Flack's venting more than Stella or anyone else on the team, but I'd say Flack is more fond of Stella than Mac. And he's fonder of Danny than he is of either of those two.

My problem with Lindsay is that in addition to being plain, she's just not nice a lot of the time. If she was actually sweet and nice and caring, I'd get why Danny likes her. As it is, I don't really see the appeal. The one good thing is that they never had multiple guys going after her--I don't even think a suspect has ever even hit on her (which seems to happen to everyone). So that at least has been realistic.

A suspect hit on her in "Stuck on You", and she had a date in "Risk". (The jury is still out on whether Pino was hitting on her in "Supermen"). Other than that, she's been pretty much Danny-oriented. But I'm totally not seeing her as being unattractive to guys. I think she wouldn't have the first clue how to pick up a guy she wasn't forced to see at least 10 hours every day, but that's not the same thing. I see plenty of appeal in Lindsay, some of them things that Danny has noticed when she's just his friend - she's funny, up for anything, and apparently likes quite a few of the same things he does. I think it's hard to pin down what Danny likes about her as a girlfriend for a simple reason - he doesn't like her as a girlfriend.

LOL, ooh that was fun, it's been way too long! :lol: Here's hoping I've gotten better with not cutting things out, if not word-crunching...

 

[Top41]

^Definitely! It's good to be back in the debate.

None of the other characters have even one tactic to "get out of trouble scot-free", there's no reason to assume Lindsay has a whole arsenal of them in case one doesn't work. And even less proof to support that, I think; because Lindsay had already taken responsibility and still Mac gave her the "it's okay", by the time she brought up her problems with Danny. People let her off for things, and that's annoying, but it says more about them (or more accurately, about the writing on the show) than it does about Lindsay.

But the proof is in the fact that we saw Lindsay play the "poor me" card in that scene with Mac--sure, she owned up, but immediately said it was stupid for her to get involved with someone she worked with. Again, bringing Danny back into it and indirectly laying it at his door. I think Lindsay feels sorry for herself, and that's why she feels justified when she does things like leave crime scenes or pass of responsibilities on Danny. She has a sense of entitlement--she went through something terrible when she was a teen, and people owe her, either in understanding without getting an explanation, cutting her slack, etc. Owning up in LWFM was actually a step forward for her--but she still tried to put the blame on Danny somewhat.

And yeah, she has an arsenal while the others don't because they don't have those feelings of entitlement or self-pity. Stella's too tough to sink to those levels, Danny feels he deserves whatever he gets and Hawkes is very straightforward.

I wasn't thinking so much about the fear - that might have been the same with both Danny and Lindsay. If Danny had had a choice, he probably wouldn't have opted to join Shane in the bar, because he was (naturally) afraid.

Oh no, I think he would have, afraid or not. The whole episode built to it--the way he went out of his way and sort of broke the rules trying to help Hawkes. I think Danny would have been the first to volunteer, despite his fears. He just wasn't really given the opportunity because Shane asked for him specifically. And he did that because Danny reached out to him on an emotional level at the end of "Hung Out to Dry." (Man, those were a great pair of episodes.)

But Danny didn't have a choice. Shane specifically called him out. Lindsay otoh wasn't called on to go into that apartment, not in the same way. Like I said, it was hardly the best-laid plan. She chose to go in, that's why I think they were trying to say something specific about Lindsay's fears with that episode. She usually doesn't go into situations where she might get shot - most people don't choose to, that's true - but she did it because a teenage girl was about to be shot. It's one of the few anomalies we've seen with the way she's generally kept away from those situations, and I think that's the reason why.

But no one really tried to stop her or say to her that maybe it wasn't the best idea, which says to me that she's not kept away from those situations so much as she's just not called on for them in the same way Hawkes and Adam aren't.

Hawkes and Adam both have a reason for that, though. Adam's a lab tech. Hawkes is still a doctor. Neither of them are even qualified to carry a gun, not by the police department (it's only in Season 6 when Hawkes finally becomes qualified, isn't it?). What's Lindsay's excuse? She's a fully-licensed police officer, yet they keep her away from those "armed" situations as though she weren't qualified to carry a gun. For me, the only way that makes sense is if they're actually paying attention to Lindsay's backstory as they've laid it out.

It's been murky with Hawkes. I don't remember any specific reference to him not being able to carry a gun until season six. Adam's a lab rat, but so is Lindsay much of the time. I really think it has less to do with Lindsay's backstory than it does to do with the fact that Anna Belknap has literally been pregnant for half of the time she's been on CSI: NY.

Agreed. I usually dislike characters who are "untouchable", so to speak - can do no wrong no matter how they act, yada yada. Lindsay's definitely the one exception, but it'd just be so much more fun and fulfilling to see her called out once in a while. For something she did, not just because someone needed to vent and used her as a scapegoat.

Agreed. And that's something I feel strongly about, too--I can't stand characters who are "untouchable"--especially on a show where every other main character has been called to the carpet at least once. Hell, even Adam has been chewed out before. It's ridiculous that Lindsay hasn't been.

Warrick, Catherine, and I think Sara from CSI Vegas have all lost their cool in the middle of interrogations before, have accordingly been kicked out and the interrogations continued on. In the Miami episode where Eric was shot, Ryan practically attacked a suspect during an interrogation (and I've lost track of how many interrogations he's lost his cool in), and it still continued on without a hitch. Not to mention "The Deep" from CSI: NY where Mac threw a suspect against the wall.

I'll admit, I don't recall the details of the other show's interrupted interrogations, but in "The Deep" I remember Danny pacing in distress while Mac got rough with the suspect (an interesting reaction from Danny, which is another thing that makes me think he was a victim of domestic abuse as a child) and then Flack came in and pulled Mac off the guy--ending the interrogation. Granted, what Flack had to say kind of made the interrogation irrelevant, but Mac's behavior put an end to any hopes of getting something out of that interrogation.

It doesn't make sense that Lindsay losing her cool would've tanked either the interrogation or the case - especially if she removed herself from the interrogation as soon as she realized she'd lost her cool. If that were true, these CSIs wouldn't solve half of their cases. Had Danny stayed in the interrogation room and kept going, the interrogation would've been fine.

She didn't just leave--she yelled at the suspects first and then flounced out in the most dramatic manner possible. I guess Danny could have stayed--but that's just not Danny. And I still think it would have been pretty impossible for him to salvage the interrogation after his colleague had stormed out dramatically.

When Danny has a problem, he never works to hide it from Mac. Not even if the problem is with Mac himself. From Season 1 [C&M: "Sorry, that was out of line"] to Season 2 [RSRD: "I don't need a boss, I need a friend"] to Season 4 (talking to him about Ruben in "Child's Play" - it really doesn't matter why he ran out before Lindsay came in, he still was able to talk to Mac). And I really don't think he ever tries to hide his problems from Flack - sometimes even seeking him out specifically just so he can vent to him. It's not the same with Lindsay at all. It was almost pointed how he was shutting her out/not venting to her during the Ruben crisis. I personally think he's had a problem with her being his girlfriend since the beginning of Season 4, but he's never let her in on that either. Even when Lindsay confronted him (RND), he didn't let anything spill.

Did he hide it from Lindsay, or did he just not go to her? I really don't think him walking out in "Child's Play" was about her--he was already on his way out. But if she wanted to talk to him and be there for him, why did she never approach him again about it? I really doubt if she did he would have just said, "No, Lindsay, I'm fine." Everyone Danny confided in went to him--Mac, Angell, Flack all approached him. Lindsay didn't. And by the time she did in RND, she was just letting loose on him and criticizing him. Who would confide in someone under those circumstances?

Danny puts all of them through the wringer equally, I agree, but I do think it's easier for Mac/Flack when he actually lets them know what the problem is.

Because Mac and Flack usually force or draw it out of him. He went to Mac in RSRD, and in On the Job he called for Flack, but usually they're going to him and trying to draw it out of him. Even in "Comes Around," when Danny presumably called Flack to meet him to talk, Flack kind of loosened him up first by joking with him and trying to make him laugh... before he even knew what the problem was.

He shut down in C&M at the end, but he held his own for a pretty good time before doing that. I don't remember the conversation outside the IAB room in "On the Job", but I do remember the conversation in Mac's office at the end of the episode, and Danny was still fighting a bit then, even though he again shut down toward the end. In RND, he shut down at the beginning of the fight. That's what doesn't make sense.

Well, he was still totally depressed over Ruben's death, which I think had something to do with it. But I think also he made his little protest when he asked her if she was still upset about lunch. And in his mind, he didn't have much to defend himself on--when someone tells Danny he's wrong or bad, he tends to believe it. Even if he was waiting for her to come to him, that's not something he'd ever say to her, especially when his self esteem is at an all time low.

Actually, that thing in PF for me highlighted all the reasons I'm certain Danny didn't have anything to say in/after RND besides "we're over". I mean, we have to think - why was he groveling in the first place? He wasn't calling to get back together (cold spell between PF and "The Box" indicates they didn't get back together, at least not in any good way).

In "The Box," Danny said they were back together but it wasn't the same. So I think he was groveling in PF to get back together... probably because he thought it was what she wanted, that he didn't want to hurt another person who cared about him, that if she loved him he should give her what she wants.

He clearly wasn't calling to work on their relationship, or even on the reasons they were mad at each other. He just suddenly decided he wanted her back for whatever - maybe to have another person in his life he "knew" loved him, maybe for another good time, I'm still not sure.

I don't think he is really all that into her--I think what draws him to her and what has always drawn is how much she likes him. And for some reason, he can't stand the thought of letting go of someone who is in love with him. Maybe he's afraid he'll never find another person who will love him if he lets her go. While I think Danny cares a great deal for people--Lindsay included--I'm not sure he's capable of loving someone because of how little he thinks of himself. Lucy might change that, because he really seems to love his child--and has practically from the moment he found out Lindsay was pregnant.

That's what I think it has to come back to, because though we might disagree on it, it really doesn't matter what Lindsay is seeing him as (although to be honest, Danny hasn't really been the perfect devoted boyfriend for about two years and counting now). When she found out he wasn't it, she'd've just left...as she's done. Danny's inability to let go of something he's never even wanted in the first place, that's the problem.

Well, so is her weakness for him. If she really wanted out, she should have and could have just said, "No, this is over." They're equally to blame on this front IMO.

His true reasons were apparently enough for Lindsay... which is both creepy and mind-boggling, but also not the terms I'd imagine she ideally wants him on. I mean, I'm finding it tough to believe her ideal is a guy who only wants her for the child she's carrying, no matter how he tries to play it otherwise. So I think if it were about the terms she wanted, she just couldn't have said yes. So messed up, ick

Well, that's where her weakness comes into it, or her desire--she just wants him. If he's at least trying to keep up the illusion, she'll go for it.

And after she was already at his place in PF? If it was something that was really on his mind, why just let it go once he knew she was going to have to listen? (Or run out into the rain, if she refused to)

Because she'd run again. She's already done it numerous times. She didn't have to listen. She'd get over there, he'd start talking, she'd be like, "I'm outta here." She didn't want to talk--she wanted to have Danny. So he gave her what she wanted to placate her.

We got no indication that anything important had been said between Danny and Lindsay after PF...and very little indication that Danny had something urgent to say to her even before PF.

Because he knew what she wanted and gave it to her. Danny can be very, very good at that. It wasn't really different than him using his body to comfort Rikki after she made a move on him.

Flack went through hell in "AitF", but I'm still not seeing that a lot of excessive pushing was required to make Danny talk, and it didn't seem like Danny was purposely hiding from Flack. At the beginning of the search, Danny was in the first place Flack looked (the bail-office). He certainly didn't pull what he did in "Child's Play" with Lindsay when it came to Flack - even though he was already on his way out of the bail-office, he stopped for Flack. That doesn't say "running" to me. He gave up the numbers with no fuss, and the closest he came to running was maybe when he didn't answer Flack's call later in the episode.

When Flack was with Danny physically in the episode, he was very commanding and dominant. He got in Danny's space, he talked forcefully to him, he blocked his motorcycle. Danny clearly responds to that, at least with Flack--he got very passive and compliant, he handed over the numbers as soon as Flack asked for them. When Flack wasn't there physically, he was able to rebel--not answering the phone calls--but it obviously upset him (he hung his head). Later, with Rikki, he did defy Flack, but his shoulders were hunched and it was clear it was difficult for him. He knew Flack was there for him, that he was there to protect him and because he cared about him. And he knew he was making it hard for Flack.

I do think Danny feels really, really bad when he makes it difficult for people to care for him--perhaps why Lindsay's speech in RND made him feel so bad (though she'd put in very little effort to show him she did care) and why he made such an effort to get her back.

Yeah, I can see how that would raise trust in Flack, although Flack's been lenient before with suspects that others on the team either know or care about (Marty Pino, for example).

Was Flack lenient with Pino, or did he just level with him as a former colleague? I don't remember any leniency when Pino was arrested.

But waiting to arrest Rikki doesn't exactly seem like the hugest sacrifice - I mean, it wasn't like with Marty Pino, who was suspected of murder. Rikki stole a gun and pointed it at Danny, but she never did anything, she wasn't exactly a threat to the public.

It was a big sacrifice for Mr. By-the-Book Flack... who had already bent the rules once by not calling in Danny's missing gun. Flack was already going against his own code--so to do so further just shows how deeply he cares for Danny.

But everyone gets to see Danny's cute, funny side - and his go-out-of-his-way side too, for that matter. Danny goes out of his way for Stella and Hawkes at least as much, if not more than he does for Lindsay, Flack, and Mac. That's not really what I was getting at. I meant that Danny makes it very difficult for people who want to care about him, and go out of their way for him. And I don't really see him making it so much harder for Flack than he does for anyone else; if anything, I think it's the opposite. He's certainly a lot more open with Flack than he is with anyone else.

Because Flack has shown Danny over and over just how much he cares for Danny. Flack will drop everything just to support and protect Danny (OtJ, RSRD, Comes Around, Snow Day). I think Flack's really fought to get Danny's trust. Not that he should have to--but he has. Mac finally got through in RSRD. Lindsay has made a few efforts, but nothing to the extent Flack and Mac have. And Lindsay has always kind of missed that a big part of getting through to Danny involves engaging him on an emotional level.

I agree; I think Danny wanted to be told that "everything would be alright", but that's why I don't think he expected, or even wanted that reassurance to come from Flack. After all, Flack did say something along the lines of people not believing Danny did it on purpose - to which Danny just replied "it doesn't feel that way, I feel very alone". I definitely agree that Flack didn't want to make any false promises, but I'm not sure how badly Danny wanted to hear false promises...again, why I don't think the reassurance he wanted to hear could've ever come from Flack. If anything, I think he would've preferred to be told that "everything would be fine" from someone who could actually guarantee it...like ideally, Mac. I think Flack might've guessed that, which is why I think he just realized that Danny's storming out had nothing to do with him personally.

Well, Danny's storming out meant he'd failed on some level, so I think it's hard to imagine he didn't take it a little personally. But at the same time, I do think Danny called Flack because he wanted to hear something specifically from Flack. He didn't call Mac, he didn't call Aiden... he called Flack. And I think Flack does tend to coddle Danny sometimes, and even did a bit in that scene, but he wanted to be straight with Danny, too. That clearly didn't work out so well. Danny still felt alone, and so his next move was to go to IAB.

I'd think that'd be more likely to make him defensive and vent-y. Especially given that he probably knew Lindsay had a point - if anyone deserved to know what went on during "AitF" it was her.

Well, perhaps, but at the same time, we don't know if she did say anything to him, because the aftermath of AitF happened off-screen... and the episode itself ended up being more about Flack and Danny's bond than the bond between Lindsay and Danny.

For me it says a lot more about her character that when she registers her mistakes, she either owns up to them or (like in "All Access", with running out after she blew up in the interrogation; or in "Oedipus Hex" with taking the mom herself at the end) tries to fix them. I see her do it all the time, the few times she's purposely written as making mistakes. I find it admirable because it's not always easy to do that, and even on the CSI shows there aren't that many characters who do it. It easily makes up for her nastier impulses, imo.

She owns up to them in the most dramatic, poor me, look at me I'm such a martyr ways, though. She disrupted an interrogation, compounding her mistake. She went in with the mother, not after Danny got slapped but to take a videotape that would offer some comfort to the mother. Her efforts are very self-serving, I think. She doesn't admit her mistakes on the big things, either--like it being unprofessional to leave a crime scene or how she didn't reach out to Danny when he needed her.

 

[Top41]

I agree that Flack puts a lot of work into Danny, and you can totally see that he cares for him a lot ("Comes Around" bar scene = my third-favourite S3 moment) but I don't think days like "AitF" are the norm for them. Flack doesn't seem to get or ask for the same kind of support he constantly gives Danny, but at the same time it'd totally be worthwhile to be Danny's friend even just for the good days. And for the bad days...it really doesn't seem like Flack's put through hell during them specifically because, like you said, Danny leans on him emotionally. Which means Flack knows what's going on, Danny doesn't shut him out. There's a lot of trust there, which makes any problem easier to deal with.

There is, but I think it's clear that Flack has worked hard to earn that trust, and still has to push to get through Danny's walls sometimes. It's not easy for him. He gets a lot of the good side of Danny, but then Lindsay has too, with a lot less effort. Lindsay got flowers and a switched shift, a guy who flew across the country to support her, a guy who's picked up her slack at work.

Always assuming they were sleeping together between PF and "The Box" (it really didn't seem so, although I guess it's iffy), I doubt she was even thinking of Danny when she was hiding her pregnancy from him. She was most likely trying to work out her own feelings about it. (And being fair, he didn't need her to think of him - why would he? He didn't even know, and when he found out he didn't exactly care that she'd hidden it from him.) Obviously, he was going to figure out she was pregnant eventually, and I doubt she would've lied when he finally asked her about it. I'm not seeing yo-yo behaviour in S5.

She's sleeping with him, but she doesn't look at him as someone she can confide in. Sound familiar? But whereas in Danny's case I think he was waiting for her to come to him, Lindsay being pregnant wasn't something Danny initially could have known about without her telling him. She knew what was going on with him in season four; he discovered by accident what was up with her in season five. It's another instance of her not taking his feelings into consideration.

ETA: Sorry, just remembered that Danny actually did care that she hadn't said anything about being pregnant earlier But I do think Lindsay had reasons for not saying anything, reasons that probably wouldn't exist if they were sleeping together and things were golden between them.

Well, things weren't golden--Danny himself said that in "The Box." But he also said they got back together, so Lindsay was clearly enjoying Danny's body--while still not dealing with any of his messy emotional issues.

Actually, until we started this whole thread it never once occurred to me that Danny's "we should talk" at the end of RND meant anything other than "it's over" :lol:. I'd been picturing him ending it as early as "The Deep", to be honest. Long before "Child's Play" aired; and certainly in the episodes after "Child's Play". I thought that was the only thing the D/L in Season 4 could've been leading up to. Danny's always been disinterested when it came to Lindsay as a love-interest (S3 back then, seemed like it was more about the challenge than anything else), and entirely bored the whole time she was his girlfriend in Season 4. I thought RND was him finally, finally telling her that he wasn't that into her. I mean, of course she had to get over him, he was sleeping with Rikki for goodness' sake. He wouldn't have been doing that while under the impression that he and Lindsay were still a thing, not if he wasn't cheating. It was only natural that he'd actually tell Lindsay she had to get over him, even if he did it nicely. I don't see how Lindsay owed it to him to hear why he dumped her - at least not that soon. I really think the possibility that he'd been about to say something else in RND was just that - a possibility, and not one Lindsay had much reason to put faith in (given behaviour before, during, and slightly after RND).

I definitely see that as a possibility now, but I don't know why he'd go to her to tell her to get over him, that it was really over, after she'd already told him she was going to do just that. Lindsay owed it to him to at least hear his side of things. If it went down a path that was unpleasant, she had every right to cut him off and be like, ok, this conversation is over. She's certainly never had a problem with walking away before. But how could she really know what he'd say before at least giving him the chance to say it?

Is it falling into line if he's there for the baby, not for her - and she knows it? I agree that she's ignoring signs now the way she ignored them in Season 4, but there's a notable difference in her behaviour from S4 and her behaviour now, which tells me she isn't completely blind this time. I think I said it earlier in this thread, but I can't imagine the perky, heart-on-her-sleeve!Lindsay from early-Season 4 waiting as long as S5!Lindsay did to tell Danny about a baby, had she gotten pregnant in early-S4. I certainly can't picture that Lindsay ever hesitating or saying no if Danny had asked her to marry him, even if he asked the way he did in "The Triangle", let alone "Green Piece". Her walls are still up when it comes to Danny, because she doesn't trust him the way she trusted that perfect-vision of him she saw in S4. And I think a big part of that lack of trust comes down to her knowing that he's pretending he's in love so that he doesn't lose his child. I actually think it'd be pretty impossible for her to see him as that S4!perfect-version at this point. Yet somehow she's still with him...I think she's still pretty clueless as far as Danny goes, but she's come a long way from only caring about him as that perfect-boyfriend.

Agreed, and I think as much as she might know it's an illusion, it's one she wants to buy into now, rather than one she just believes. But why? I think it comes down to her wanting him. Wanting what is best for both of them would be telling him she'll make sure he has a legal right to the child but that she knows he doesn't love her. But I think Danny wants to believe he does and Lindsay wants to believe he does--so they're both kind of going along with it.

Well yeah, it comes back to both her compartmentalizing-personality and the way I think she sees Danny as herself. I can totally buy that she found herself caring very deeply for Danny, maybe more than she initially intended to (although it's quite a step from that to consciously deciding that she wanted a relationship with him)....she did seem into him in RSRD, but I do think she forced herself to turn it off when Season 3 came around. And assumed he'd do the same with no problem. It's not the greatest approach, but unless she sees herself as an inanimate prop as well, I don't think she does it out of inconsideration for him or his feelings.

Considering him an extension of herself--a person who reacts the same way she does even though it's markedly clear he doesn't--is treating him like a prop. When she wants him, she goes for it--otherwise, he can just stay in the corner and mind his own business, thanks. She never really takes into account his feelings, his extreme emotional nature, or what he's going through. It's just always about her--and that's what makes it so frustrating. With Ruben's death, it wasn't that he was grieving... it was that he chose to shut her out. Which if she had reached out might have been an understandable complaint, but she didn't. Same thing with the feelings--after making her interest in him clear and him finally responding to that, she just shut him out, without taking into account that maybe he wasn't able to turn off his feelings in the same way. Which anyone who knows drama queen Danny for five seconds would know would be impossible for him to do, lol. She just doesn't seem to really care about him as a person.

I don't know if it's so much about the "real wedding" as it would be about wanting family there as you make such a huge life-choice, even if they were just there to watch you sign a marriage license at City Hall. I can imagine that Lindsay probably wasn't one of those girls who spent forever planning their perfect wedding (although honest, every girl thinks about it at least once :lol. But the hasty, undercover "wedding" came off really sketchy for me - no family at all, no one but their bosses present, etc. Especially since they indicated earlier in that episode that Lindsay was close enough to her mom to fly back to Montana, just so her mom could "see her pregnant". I have to think about how weird it would've seemed to anyone who didn't know Danny or Lindsay's story, like for example, her family in Montana. She steps off the plane, pregnant by a guy they've probably never met in their lives (assuming they'd even heard of him before then), and by the way, she married the guy yesterday afternoon, sorry she didn't even give them a phone call telling them she was getting married...I don't know, I think that would've gotten ridiculously uncomfortable :lol:. And I don't think it's something Lindsay would've chosen. I can't see how a wedding like that would help convince anyone that the guy really wanted her. It'd just make it painfully obvious that the guy married her for only one thing - legal rights to the baby. And even if Lindsay somehow didn't realize it at the end of Green Piece, I'd give it maybe two hours in Montana away from Danny before she either realized the obvious herself, or someone pointed it out to her. I think she had to care a lot about Danny to agree to that wedding.

Did she care about Danny a lot, or realize she could have what she wanted if she went along with this? I think it's pretty obvious that Danny wants a family, that he wants to be a father and now a husband, because that factors into being a good dad. I think in Danny's eyes, this will give him the security he's obviously always craved. Though what he wants is his child, I think he also obviously wants a family--and Lindsay is a big part of that. He just has to convince both of them he loves her.

I don't know, I've seen something around before saying that Lindsay "trapped" Danny with the pregnancy...so when they actually talk about it and Lindsay basically tells Danny she's not planning on trapping him with the baby, I can't see it as inconsiderate or thoughtless.

Ugh, I hate that--the idea that women "trap" men with pregnancy. Unless she poked holes in the condom (which I'm sure she didn't), she didn't trap him. But I don't think he'd ever see it that way, or think that for a millisecond--that's not Danny.

It can't be both ways. If Lindsay had told Danny about the pregnancy and immediately laid out what it was she expected from him, I think Danny would've felt trapped, and I for one would've found it inconsiderate of her. I can't believe I'm the only one who would think so. What Lindsay did instead came off better. Especially since she didn't flat-out tell him "I'm having a baby, and I don't want you to have anything to do with it" - she gave him the ultrasound picture and left him to think about it; and when he pushed she told him she wasn't expecting anything from him -- again, still leaving him with his options open, to stay or walk. I think that's consideration, consideration that a lot of fathers-to-be would probably appreciate getting. Not expecting anything does not translate to "stay away from me". It just shows that Lindsay doesn't know Danny as well as she may think she does, because I think she did expect him to walk. So yeah, I think she had her doubts about him. Given how shaky D/L are even on their good days, though, she had every reason to have her doubts.

Lindsay didn't just give him the facts and then say the choice was his--she'd clearly come to a conclusion before she told him--or rather, got found out. She said "I know you," implying Danny is irresponsible or wouldn't step up. It goes to show how little she does know him--how little effort she's ever made into getting to know him, because anyone who spent 20 minutes with Danny would know he's not that kind of guy. He's childish, impulsive, headstrong--but he's not irresponsible, and he's one of the most open-hearted, caring people out there. He never would have walked--even if he didn't want her, he'd absolutely want to do right by his child. It just goes to show how little she's taken the time to get to know this man she claims to love.

She never got it back. Danny from end of Season 3 hasn't been seen since end of Season 3, and she knows it. What in Season 5 would ever make Lindsay think that she had that fantasy-Danny back? He said a lot of nice things in S5, but he never once said "I love you" back in S3/early S4; and yet she seemed tons happier and easier with him back then than she does now. In S3, I think it was a lot more about what Danny did that made Lindsay fall for him, rather than about what he said. Lindsay doesn't buy what he says, so if she is happy, it's not because of what he's saying.

She sure seems happy. I think it's partially because she knows he's hers now... not that she "trapped" him, but that she sees he's going to stay, for the baby, for the chance at having a family. She might not have ever taken the time to understand his vulnerability, but she's certainly profiting from it.

I totally disagree. I think if Flack wants D/L to end, it's for both Danny and Lindsay's sakes. If it were just about Danny and what Danny wants to be happy, I think we wouldn't see Flack be so understanding when it comes to Lindsay.

See, I don't think Flack cares about Lindsay in the slightest, beyond being a colleague. He's polite to her on the job most of the time, but I doubt he thought she'd be around long as a girlfriend for Danny because he knows how Danny is.

And this has nothing to do with getting in the middle of Danny's affairs, it has everything to do with how you respond to someone who's making your friend feel badly. In net totals, Danny and Lindsay have actually been split up for a longer time than they've been together over these four seasons. And for the majority of the split-up time, we're supposed to believe that it's Lindsay who's insisting on the split-up and Danny who's not happy about it (I thought S4 would've been different, until Danny suddenly decided he wanted Lindsay again). Yet some of the greatest Lindsay/Flack scenes have come when Lindsay and Danny are in break-up mode. If anything, I think it's more that Flack thinks she has the right mindset about her and Danny when they're off-again, rather than his just not caring that she's hurt. That's why he's comparatively nice to her even when D/L are off.

Sure, he's happy she's out of Danny's life, so he's nice to her. But I think that has more to do with Danny than her... though I think when it comes to her, he's never expressed any care or concern that goes beyond being a colleague. I don't think he'd care if she got hurt by her and Danny being over--he'd never want it, but if it was a byproduct of them ending, he'd be fine with it.

ETA to expand on this: I really think Flack thinks D and L are equally bad for each other because Flack seems more disinterested than ever in Season5 D/L and in Lucy, though S5 is probably the only time Danny's truly been invested in any part of his relationship with Lindsay; and Lucy makes Danny happy. I totally take that to mean he (like we, and possibly even like Lindsay herself) thinks that adding a baby to the DL mess is the last thing they need, let alone adding a marriage because of that baby.

Oh, agreed. I'm sure he thinks it's a total debacle. It is interesting that he's not said anything to Danny about it, either way (no congrats, no concerns... nothing). I'm sure he'll be there to pick up the pieces no matter what. I think he's also happy when Danny is happy--he might not like Danny being with Lindsay, but Flack has definitely been all smiles when Danny talks about the baby/at the baby's birth. Flack wants to see Danny happy.

Oh, Danny/Aiden banter was the best part of Season 1!:lol: The thing is, the common factor in those lines is how he assumes girls would be more than happy to massage him/sleep with him, which is cute and all, but I'd think it takes a certain level of confidence to even joke about that out loud.

But he didn't say "girls"... he said "girlfriends." I don't think it's cocky at all to assume the person you're dating would want to sleep with you or give you a massage. His point was that he didn't go to prostitutes, not that he was the hottest thing around and could get any girl he wanted.

His irritation with his sister being connected to a murder and bank-robbery in "Veritas" didn't stop him from finding a private place in the precinct before letting loose on her.

Chewing someone out in front of a whole room of people is different than doing it in front of just one person.

And presumably, he works with the people at the precinct more often than he works with Lindsay and the other CSIs - he has his own team of cops, doesn't he? I call trust, as far as Lindsay goes. I can't see him losing it on Sam in front of just anyone. As for Mac and Stella, yeah, I think he sees them as equals, and that's why he confides in them. But I don't think it has anything to do with fondness. For example, it's Mac who gets Flack's venting more than Stella or anyone else on the team, but I'd say Flack is more fond of Stella than Mac. And he's fonder of Danny than he is of either of those two.

I think he would have done it in front of Hawkes or Adam, too... I guess he feels a level of comfort with the CSI team, but I don't think Lindsay is special or singled out in any way in that regard.

A suspect hit on her in "Stuck on You",

What did he say? I assume you mean the sleazy manager? I've forgotten, but I don't recall him hitting on her.

and she had a date in "Risk".

Or she went to the opera with her uncle.

(The jury is still out on whether Pino was hitting on her in "Supermen").

I don't remember that being the case at all. It's been a while since I've seen season two, though!

Other than that, she's been pretty much Danny-oriented. But I'm totally not seeing her as being unattractive to guys.

Just mousy and not a standout in any way.

I think she wouldn't have the first clue how to pick up a guy she wasn't forced to see at least 10 hours every day, but that's not the same thing. I see plenty of appeal in Lindsay, some of them things that Danny has noticed when she's just his friend - she's funny, up for anything, and apparently likes quite a few of the same things he does. I think it's hard to pin down what Danny likes about her as a girlfriend for a simple reason - he doesn't like her as a girlfriend.

Yeah, which implies to me that she's not a great one. And I don't think we've seen anything on screen to say that she is--especially four years down the road when she clearly doesn't know the first thing about this guy she claims to love.

 

[Maya316]

But the proof is in the fact that we saw Lindsay play the "poor me" card in that scene with Mac--sure, she owned up, but immediately said it was stupid for her to get involved with someone she worked with. Again, bringing Danny back into it and indirectly laying it at his door.

Yeah, after Mac had already told her "it's okay, just don't do it again." I think she was just venting after that - what would've been the point of playing that card after she'd already been let off the hook?

I think Lindsay feels sorry for herself, and that's why she feels justified when she does things like leave crime scenes or pass of responsibilities on Danny. She has a sense of entitlement--she went through something terrible when she was a teen, and people owe her, either in understanding without getting an explanation, cutting her slack, etc. Owning up in LWFM was actually a step forward for her--but she still tried to put the blame on Danny somewhat.

Maybe - I can see her as angry at the world. Doesn't mean that she also feels she can act as horribly as she wants and get away with it. She never goes into those situations (or even comes out of them) expecting that she's going to be let off the hook. If she did, I think she'd be a little less edgy during those situations.

And yeah, she has an arsenal while the others don't because they don't have those feelings of entitlement or self-pity. Stella's too tough to sink to those levels, Danny feels he deserves whatever he gets and Hawkes is very straightforward.

I'm still not seeing this arsenal. Those 'tactics' from "Oedipus Hex" and "Silent Night" seem too risky and erratic to actually be planned tactics from an arsenal. I mean, like I said before, that Lindsay was let off the hook in both says everything about Danny and Stella, not about her. Danny might've been pretty fond of her in "Hex", Stella too in "Silent Night". That's why they worked. If Lindsay worked for anyone else, like Horatio Caine on Miami for example, and pulled the same thing she did with Stella, I think she would've gotten fired on the spot. Simply because it's doubtful that Horatio would feel that fondness for her. Getting snippy with anyone when they confront you about why you're not doing your job is not a tactic that's usually guaranteed to succeed.

Oh no, I think he would have, afraid or not. The whole episode built to it--the way he went out of his way and sort of broke the rules trying to help Hawkes. I think Danny would have been the first to volunteer, despite his fears. He just wasn't really given the opportunity because Shane asked for him specifically. And he did that because Danny reached out to him on an emotional level at the end of "Hung Out to Dry." (Man, those were a great pair of episodes.

True; I guess I could see how he would've gone either way. But still, whether he would've gone or not given the choice is kind of a moot point. He wasn't given the choice.

But no one really tried to stop her or say to her that maybe it wasn't the best idea, which says to me that she's not kept away from those situations so much as she's just not called on for them in the same way Hawkes and Adam aren't.

No, no one tried to stop her - she came up with an idea on the spot, they needed to get in quickly, they probably just grabbed at it because it was the first idea that came up. It wasn't the best idea. But it was her choice, because had they actually taken a moment to think about it, I doubt sending Lindsay in would've been their first choice.

It's been murky with Hawkes. I don't remember any specific reference to him not being able to carry a gun until season six. Adam's a lab rat, but so is Lindsay much of the time. I really think it has less to do with Lindsay's backstory than it does to do with the fact that Anna Belknap has literally been pregnant for half of the time she's been on CSI: NY.

Well, that too (about Anna Belknap). But Hawkes has actually been pretty consistent. He was toting a gun in "Snow Day" (the only one I remember him carrying a gun in), because he grabbed it off of one of the gang-guys. He's not qualified to carry one, not as an official police officer. Lately I've started watching CSI: Miami more than I ever have before, and I remember that there was something on Natalia's not being qualified to carry a gun for almost two years because she'd only just started out as a CSI. I think it was the same for Hawkes; there's no reference to his not carrying a gun till S6, but in "Party's Over" Lindsay mentioned that he wasn't a full-cop yet.

Lindsay's duties may largely be lab-ish like Adam's, but she's officially a police officer because she was directly hired as a CSI. Adam's a lab tech - that's what he was hired as. There's no mention of Lindsay ever having switched over from "lab tech" before she joined Mac's team, so I think it's safe to assume she's been a full-fledged cop for some time. And because she is, she doesn't have the same excuse Hawkes and Adam do for not being in shootouts. She's qualified.

Agreed. And that's something I feel strongly about, too--I can't stand characters who are "untouchable"--especially on a show where every other main character has been called to the carpet at least once. Hell, even Adam has been chewed out before. It's ridiculous that Lindsay hasn't been.

"Medical Investigation" is another show I've recently gotten into, and while I know Eva Rossi and Lindsay Monroe are two pretty-different characters regardless of their actress, watching Eva is so much fun in a way watching Lindsay doesn't manage to be. Just because Eva Rossi is not viewed as "untouchable", she gets chewed out and called out and then she gets to either respond or deal with it; and it's really interesting, watching Anna Belknap play a character who's not Mary-Sue-ish. I like Lindsay a lot, but I want so badly for someone to get on her case for something...for her to maybe lose someone's respect and have to earn it back.

I'll admit, I don't recall the details of the other show's interrupted interrogations, but in "The Deep" I remember Danny pacing in distress while Mac got rough with the suspect (an interesting reaction from Danny, which is another thing that makes me think he was a victim of domestic abuse as a child) and then Flack came in and pulled Mac off the guy--ending the interrogation. Granted, what Flack had to say kind of made the interrogation irrelevant, but Mac's behavior put an end to any hopes of getting something out of that interrogation.

Danny was still in the interrogation room when Flack and Mac left, I don't think the interrogation ended completely. But Mac and Stella were pretty wired during that first interrogation in "Heroes" (with the guy who owned the burned car), visibly having lost it, but they still got something significant out of him. In one Season 3 episode (I don't remember which one, but Flack and Mac were interviewing the suspect together), Mac lost it enough to shove the interrogation table into the guy's stomach. The interrogation went on.

She didn't just leave--she yelled at the suspects first and then flounced out in the most dramatic manner possible. I guess Danny could have stayed--but that's just not Danny. And I still think it would have been pretty impossible for him to salvage the interrogation after his colleague had stormed out dramatically.

And she's really the first CSI to do that? Then again, other CSIs (again, Catherine from Vegas) had to actually be dragged from the room; that's at least as disruptive. But it happens frequently enough on these shows, and the interrogations are rarely shot to hell because of someone losing it. And it's definitely not impossible to salvage them after said colleague has lost their cool - it could have been salvaged very easily by Danny ignoring Lindsay's outburst (like Flack ignored Mac's in the episode I mentioned above) and staying put. No, it probably wasn't Danny to do that. It's not really Lindsay to sit around after she's visibly lost it in front of anyone, either, let alone a suspect. These characters all have traits that make them act in the ways they do.

Did he hide it from Lindsay, or did he just not go to her? I really don't think him walking out in "Child's Play" was about her--he was already on his way out. But if she wanted to talk to him and be there for him, why did she never approach him again about it? I really doubt if she did he would have just said, "No, Lindsay, I'm fine." Everyone Danny confided in went to him--Mac, Angell, Flack all approached him. Lindsay didn't. And by the time she did in RND, she was just letting loose on him and criticizing him. Who would confide in someone under those circumstances?

On hiding it vs. just not going to her - I think it's the same difference, really. Because it's just in Danny's nature to vent, even unconsciously - for example, the way he vented in front of Mac and Adam (who didn't approach him btw, and did nothing except stand there even after Danny's venting-line) in "Happily Never After". I doubt that was conscious. But he never vented in front of Lindsay. Makes me think he made the conscious choice not to - equals hiding it, if you ask me. I don't disagree that she should've gone to him, but because he did hide it from her, I actually could see him being all "Lindsay, I'm fine" if she ever approached him. I could very easily see that. Especially since I really doubt he was completely unconscious of the fact that she was there for him (four subtle-but-there attempts to reach him and all).

Because Mac and Flack usually force or draw it out of him. He went to Mac in RSRD, and in On the Job he called for Flack, but usually they're going to him and trying to draw it out of him. Even in "Comes Around," when Danny presumably called Flack to meet him to talk, Flack kind of loosened him up first by joking with him and trying to make him laugh... before he even knew what the problem was.

I actually think it's pretty equal, how often they force it out of him vs. how often he goes to them. Ie, "Heroes" - Flack was there, Danny dumped on him about Aiden. "Tanglewood" - Danny came to Mac's office just to vent a little on the Tanglewood boys. Even in "On the Job" when the Mac/Danny relationship was at its most tense, Danny let Mac know what the problem was with him: "I don't need a lawyer" (read, "I can't believe you think I need a lawyer"). In "Crime and Misdemeanour", Danny did it again, letting Mac know what his problem was with him: "You think it doesn't matter?" The one time Danny and Lindsay had a blow-out similar to any of Mac-and-Danny's blowups, when both points-of-view might've been aired and they'd finally know what was going on with each other - Danny shut down practically before it even started. Yeah, I do think it's easier on Flack and Mac, mostly knowing what the problem is with Danny.

Well, he was still totally depressed over Ruben's death, which I think had something to do with it. But I think also he made his little protest when he asked her if she was still upset about lunch. And in his mind, he didn't have much to defend himself on--when someone tells Danny he's wrong or bad, he tends to believe it. Even if he was waiting for her to come to him, that's not something he'd ever say to her, especially when his self esteem is at an all time low.

What kind of protest was the lunch thing, though? She'd barely even indicated that she was mad at him, her exact line was "That's what this is, me mad at you?" If he can mostly stand up to Mac when Mac comes storming down the hallway already chewing him out hard, it's difficult for me to see that the lunch line was supposed to be a protest. I think he was honestly asking about that lunch line - he really thought that's what she was angry about. And I can't agree that when someone tells Danny he's wrong/bad, he automatically believes it. He eventually starts to believe it, after they've worn down his protests, but like with Mac, Aiden, even Stella in "Party's Over", he usually spends some time sticking up for his point of view. In fact, of those examples, it's only with Mac that he's been worn down to believe he was in the wrong. Stella came over in "Party's Over" telling him he was in the wrong, he gave her her point-of-view, she accepted it. Aiden told him it was a mistake to keep on the case in "Crime and Misdemeanour" (getting pretty angry about it, too), and he convinced her. With Lindsay in RND, I can see how his depression over Ruben might've lowered self-esteem, but I don't see how it would've lowered it to the point where he could say nothing. I mean, being blamed for cop-killing is pretty depressing too (and while I agree Danny was pretty low after Ruben, I think I'd have to say that "On the Job" is still the episode he's been the most distressed in, ever).

In "The Box," Danny said they were back together but it wasn't the same. So I think he was groveling in PF to get back together... probably because he thought it was what she wanted, that he didn't want to hurt another person who cared about him, that if she loved him he should give her what she wants.

That cold-spell wasn't just things "not being the same", imo. They weren't talking in the least, not even when they were in scenes together. At times it actually seemed like they might've been going out of their way to avoid each other (for example, the way Lindsay kind of waited until Danny left before entering Mac's office, in that episode where they were all giving up vacation time to save Adam's job. Yeah, I get the whole point of that scene was supposed to be a little humorous, what with the team entering Mac's office in a little series - but Danny and Lindsay were getting off of work at the same time. You'd think if they were dating, they'd at least wait to walk each other out, even if they weren't heading home together.) That's sort of what I meant by them not getting back together in any significant way.

Because I think he might've assumed the one night in PF meant that they were back together (read, that she was back in his life) - and up until "The Box" left it at that ever since. Like he probably would've had Lindsay agreed to the "Jaws" thing in LWFM. If there are supposed to be a couple of months between RND and PF, then Danny waited two months to even indicate that he had something urgent he wanted to talk to Lindsay about, regarding their non-relationship. It couldn't have been that urgent, if he waited that long.

I don't think he is really all that into her--I think what draws him to her and what has always drawn is how much she likes him.

Exactly. But that's not much incentive to really be interested in someone for themselves. At best, it's probably only incentive to keep them around so you at least feel loved - which is basically what Danny seems to do.

And for some reason, he can't stand the thought of letting go of someone who is in love with him. Maybe he's afraid he'll never find another person who will love him if he lets her go. While I think Danny cares a great deal for people--Lindsay included--I'm not sure he's capable of loving someone because of how little he thinks of himself. Lucy might change that, because he really seems to love his child--and has practically from the moment he found out Lindsay was pregnant.

For me, it's really not much better that Danny would respond to anyone as a girlfriend the same way he's always responded to Lindsay as a girlfriend, although it does support what I've always thought: Lindsay is no more special to Danny than Cindy or any of his other girlfriends were, because he does seem to respond to both (or all) of them in similar blase/bored ways. I think he's sweet with them, because that's who Danny is, but I doubt he took a genuine interest in them any more than he's ever taken an interest in Lindsay (before Lucy, I mean). Of course it's great for him, he gets to feel loved and he probably doesn't ever willingly choose to let that go - but it's hell on the women involved, I'd imagine. Because he's not capable of actually loving someone, I really really doubt that Lindsay's the first who's gone through this cycle.

Well, so is her weakness for him. If she really wanted out, she should have and could have just said, "No, this is over." They're equally to blame on this front IMO.

True, that's number 2 of the top 3 issues I really have with Lindsay. If you're going to walk, then walk. If she'd stuck to her guns, the DL mess could've ended a long time ago.

Well, that's where her weakness comes into it, or her desire--she just wants him. If he's at least trying to keep up the illusion, she'll go for it.

And it's totally weakness - I just don't think it's only desire that's driving that weakness. I doubt desire is a strong enough motive for anyone to go for that, the way Lindsay's gone for it with Danny. Like I said, she's setting herself up for a fall, which would be explainable if she were at least unaware of it - but she knows it. And imo, desire's not a strong enough motive to set yourself up for that, because desire could easily be fulfilled without signing up for loveless marriages and whatnot.

Because she'd run again. She's already done it numerous times. She didn't have to listen. She'd get over there, he'd start talking, she'd be like, "I'm outta here." She didn't want to talk--she wanted to have Danny. So he gave her what she wanted to placate her.

Except that it didn't placate her and she didn't have him, not if the S5 cold-spell and even "The Box" are any indication. Additionally, there was certainly less chance that she'd run from his apartment directly into the rain in PF, than there was that she'd run from him when they were at work in the lab. But he somehow still felt the need to approach her when they were in the lab, assuming he was approaching her about something non-get-back-together-y during LWFM and early-PF. If that something was really urgent, I don't see why he would've just given up on saying it once he already had her at his apartment, where she'd have to talk to him or run back out into the rain.

Because he knew what she wanted and gave it to her. Danny can be very, very good at that. It wasn't really different than him using his body to comfort Rikki after she made a move on him.

Well, we know that he didn't, because if he'd given Lindsay what she wanted she wouldn't have had the response to him she did in "The Box".

When Flack was with Danny physically in the episode, he was very commanding and dominant. He got in Danny's space, he talked forcefully to him, he blocked his motorcycle. Danny clearly responds to that, at least with Flack--he got very passive and compliant, he handed over the numbers as soon as Flack asked for them.

Yeah, but it still basically means that Danny talked to Flack and didn't run when Flack approached him. Flack didn't really force him into anything, Danny gave up the numbers to him very quickly, whatever the reasons were. It didn't take excessive effort.

 

[Maya316]

Well, Danny's storming out meant he'd failed on some level, so I think it's hard to imagine he didn't take it a little personally. But at the same time, I do think Danny called Flack because he wanted to hear something specifically from Flack. He didn't call Mac, he didn't call Aiden... he called Flack. And I think Flack does tend to coddle Danny sometimes, and even did a bit in that scene, but he wanted to be straight with Danny, too. That clearly didn't work out so well. Danny still felt alone, and so his next move was to go to IAB.

Flack does tend to coddle Danny, especially when he's venting - which is why I think he went to him rather than Aiden or Mac, neither of whom were as likely to do the coddling. I think Danny knew Flack would be the one most likely to listen and take it well if he just wanted to vent and be angry or frustrated, which is really what he did - their conversation kind of kept going around in circles, with Flack giving the same kind of comforting/sensible answers and Danny barely hearing them before he stormed out. I think Danny ultimately wanted to hear something reassuring from someone who could guarantee things would be okay, but just during that meeting with Flack I think he just wanted that venting opportunity.

She owns up to them in the most dramatic, poor me, look at me I'm such a martyr ways, though. She disrupted an interrogation, compounding her mistake. She went in with the mother, not after Danny got slapped but to take a videotape that would offer some comfort to the mother. Her efforts are very self-serving, I think. She doesn't admit her mistakes on the big things, either--like it being unprofessional to leave a crime scene or how she didn't reach out to Danny when he needed her.

She left an investigation on her own when she realized she'd freaked out - some CSI's have to actually be dragged out of interrogations after freak-outs (even Mac in "The Deep"). How is that less dramatic? And I don't see how, after watching Danny get slapped simply for telling the mom that her daughter loved her, Lindsay (or anyone, really) would've just assumed the mom would respond better to a videotape showing her daughter saying she loved her.
I mean, Danny was actually looking very reluctant to take the mother a second time at the end of "Hex". I don't think he was assuming she'd take the videotape any better than she took the tattoo. Those were moments when she was written as making mistakes. She owned up to them/tried to make up for them. That says a lot about her character.

The big things are never the mistakes she's actually written as making. I totally doubt we were supposed to see Lindsay in the wrong by the end of "Silent Night". And I know it's been covered before, but same thing for the RND blowout.

She's sleeping with him, but she doesn't look at him as someone she can confide in. Sound familiar? But whereas in Danny's case I think he was waiting for her to come to him, Lindsay being pregnant wasn't something Danny initially could have known about without her telling him. She knew what was going on with him in season four; he discovered by accident what was up with her in season five. It's another instance of her not taking his feelings into consideration.

Only D and L were apparently a sure thing in S4 (or so Lindsay assumed), whereas not so much in Season 5 (which not even Danny seemed to assume, with the no talking and "things haven't been the same"). If PF was the one time they slept together I think it's really obvious why she didn't feel she could confide in him; whereas if Danny was sleeping with her presumably up to "Child's Play", was at least partly aware she cared enough to come to the morgue on hearing about Ruben, and knew she'd taken his shift, his reasons don't seem as clear-cut. Waiting for her to come to him, yeah, but she wasn't exactly radiating that she didn't give a care about him. On the other hand, Lindsay may not have the strongest knowledge of Danny's character, but if she felt he wouldn't care even if she did tell him about her pregnancy, I could easily see how she might've gotten that message from Season 4 and early-Season 5.

Well, things weren't golden--Danny himself said that in "The Box." But he also said they got back together, so Lindsay was clearly enjoying Danny's body--while still not dealing with any of his messy emotional issues.

Enjoying his body by night, and not even meeting his eye by day (for ten episodes, and presumably at least 3 months)? Doesn't add up for me - I mean, even in early Season 2, when I think that sort of casual relationship was exactly what Lindsay was looking for, she was pretty set on flirting with him at the office. I think it's more likely that Danny took PF to mean they'd gotten back together, even if they didn't have to talk once after that "make-up". If they were sleeping together during the first part of S5, why would PF have to be the night Lindsay got pregnant? Even if there was a huge time-jump in Season 4, and PF is actually supposed to take place in September, that's still about two months during which Lindsay could've gotten pregnant and had it make more sense.

I definitely see that as a possibility now, but I don't know why he'd go to her to tell her to get over him, that it was really over, after she'd already told him she was going to do just that. Lindsay owed it to him to at least hear his side of things. If it went down a path that was unpleasant, she had every right to cut him off and be like, ok, this conversation is over. She's certainly never had a problem with walking away before. But how could she really know what he'd say before at least giving him the chance to say it?

Because that was the nice thing to do, and Danny's flat-out a nice guy. He could totally have ignored her after her outburst and let business continue as usual, work-wise...but that would've been cold, which no CSI character has ever really been when letting someone down. That's not Danny - he wouldn't have let her down any other way except gently, but he would have let her down, and gently or not I think it'd still sting. And I think it'd already gone down that unpleasant path she was likely afraid of when he said "I'm sorry, we should talk". Hence her cutting him off. She looked directly at him when he said her name right before the "I'm sorry" line, which indicated she was about to hear him out.

Agreed, and I think as much as she might know it's an illusion, it's one she wants to buy into now, rather than one she just believes. But why? I think it comes down to her wanting him. Wanting what is best for both of them would be telling him she'll make sure he has a legal right to the child but that she knows he doesn't love her. But I think Danny wants to believe he does and Lindsay wants to believe he does--so they're both kind of going along with it.

But Lindsay all but told him in "The Triangle" that she'd make sure he had legal rights to the baby ("I'm not going anywhere, you're not going anywhere"). Turning down the proposal the first time kind of implied she knew marriage wasn't what was best for them, and that above line of hers implied she knew what was. But the only way Danny would've gained legal rights without marriage is by waiting until Lucy was born, which he apparently wasn't willing to do. And again, Lindsay's weakness came into play , because I agree...she wants to believe he loves her, even as she knows he doesn't. Gah!

Does Danny really want to believe he loves her? I think when Lucy was in her he might've wanted to believe it, if only so he could convince her of it. But Lucy's half-legally his now, so the main reason driving his urge to believe he loves Lindsay is basically gone.

Considering him an extension of herself--a person who reacts the same way she does even though it's markedly clear he doesn't--is treating him like a prop. When she wants him, she goes for it--otherwise, he can just stay in the corner and mind his own business, thanks. She never really takes into account his feelings, his extreme emotional nature, or what he's going through. It's just always about her--and that's what makes it so frustrating.

I don't agree. "Treat others the way you'd like to be treated" is one of the oldest platitudes in the book, and it's just human nature to project your own feelings and personality onto someone else, especially when you either don't know or understand that person. And especially in Season 2 and 3 (even a little in Season 4), Danny might as well have been from Mars for all Lindsay understood him. How frequently do people assume everyone around them must feel the same way about a certain subject, just because they feel that way about it? It happens all the time. But I doubt those people are just viewing "everyone" as props there for their own convenience. That's what "prop" means to me, seeing people as having no feelings except those that suit you. It's not what Lindsay's doing with Danny; she sees him as someone with feelings/opinions, but I think she often assumes a lot of those feelings/opinions are similar to hers.

With Ruben's death, it wasn't that he was grieving... it was that he chose to shut her out. Which if she had reached out might have been an understandable complaint, but she didn't.

With Ruben's death, it was that he chose to shut her out. Of course he was grieving - to everyone else around him, and I'm not seeing how Lindsay's non-right to make a complaint about it would change that. I don't think he shut her out because he was grieving; he was venting to people who didn't reach out to him any more than Lindsay did (less so, actually, because Lindsay did make her efforts).

Same thing with the feelings--after making her interest in him clear and him finally responding to that, she just shut him out, without taking into account that maybe he wasn't able to turn off his feelings in the same way. Which anyone who knows drama queen Danny for five seconds would know would be impossible for him to do, lol. She just doesn't seem to really care about him as a person.

Being entirely fair, I'm not sure that a strong case of Lindsay-projecting is the only way anyone would assume Danny could shut off his feelings for Lindsay...I mean to be honest, what feelings? His interest in S2 was reflective and even then only casually so. I didn't see any hint of strong romantic interest until "Love Run Cold", after she'd already skipped out on the date (I know 'Not What it Looks Like' is usually highlighted by a lot of people to show that Danny was so into Lindsay even as early as that...but swap Flack and Sam in for Danny and Lindsay during those final scenes in NWiLL. You wouldn't see much of a difference). Danny isn't one for shutting off whatever feelings he has, but if Lindsay assumed his interest in her was weak enough to be able to shut off, it wasn't the most out-there assumption.

Did she care about Danny a lot, or realize she could have what she wanted if she went along with this? I think it's pretty obvious that Danny wants a family, that he wants to be a father and now a husband, because that factors into being a good dad. I think in Danny's eyes, this will give him the security he's obviously always craved. Though what he wants is his child, I think he also obviously wants a family--and Lindsay is a big part of that. He just has to convince both of them he loves her.

I think she'd've actually had more of a chance to get what she wanted if she'd insisted that they stay unmarried. If she recognized that he wanted that happy-family image so badly, and made him wait until after Lucy was born, she would've at least been a little surer that he was marrying her for her, rather than for Lucy. It's not an assurance she has now. But waiting would clearly have meant leaving Danny to worry for almost three weeks that she might never be coming back. I'm not seeing a whole lot of benefit that Lindsay got out of the whole shotgun wedding (aside from being married to him, which she could have had in a better way had she made him wait). Whereas Danny got his reassurance. I think that shows whose feelings she was considering more.

Ugh, I hate that--the idea that women "trap" men with pregnancy. Unless she poked holes in the condom (which I'm sure she didn't), she didn't trap him. But I don't think he'd ever see it that way, or think that for a millisecond--that's not Danny.

Agreed :lol: But I do know it's an idea that some people have had, and in other fandoms outside of CSI: NY, it's freaky how often you come across it.

Lindsay didn't just give him the facts and then say the choice was his--she'd clearly come to a conclusion before she told him--or rather, got found out. She said "I know you," implying Danny is irresponsible or wouldn't step up. It goes to show how little she does know him--how little effort she's ever made into getting to know him, because anyone who spent 20 minutes with Danny would know he's not that kind of guy.

She's allowed to come to whatever conclusion she wants, but the choice had always been left up to him. If the conclusion was a wrong one, it was up to him to show her that, not up to her to change her mind without confirmation (unless she'd been implying she was going to keep him from the baby, which she wasn't). Still agree that Lindsay doesn't know Danny, but it has nothing to do with how well she knew him or how little she thought of him. There are plenty of girls who've been stepped out on by guys who they thought walked on water - even if someone is the greatest person in the world, there's no real way to be completely certain what they're going to be like when approached about a baby, because that's a whole new ballgame. I hate to fall back on the Miami Eric/Natalia thing again, but even Natalia was half-expecting that Eric wouldn't want anything to do with her when she thought she was pregnant, and she didn't have even half the reasons Lindsay might've had with Danny to assume that. Eric and Natalia got along great; Lindsay and Danny were barely on speaking terms by the time Lindsay would've found out she was pregnant.

See, I don't think Flack cares about Lindsay in the slightest, beyond being a colleague. He's polite to her on the job most of the time, but I doubt he thought she'd be around long as a girlfriend for Danny because he knows how Danny is.

True, and yet he formed a dynamic with her outside of Danny anyway. He totally didn't expect her to be Danny's girlfriend for so long, and accordingly, didn't get to know her or start bantering with her or calling her Linds just because she was "Danny's girlfriend". Over half the time, she isn't Danny's girlfriend. And I don't think Flack has colleagues he doesn't care about in the slightest. After Mac and Stella, he's the person most devoted to his colleagues (CSIs and the cops under him). He even seemed pretty ripped up about Officer Truby in S3. Nor do I think Lindsay's the exception to the rule

Sure, he's happy she's out of Danny's life, so he's nice to her. But I think that has more to do with Danny than her... though I think when it comes to her, he's never expressed any care or concern that goes beyond being a colleague. I don't think he'd care if she got hurt by her and Danny being over--he'd never want it, but if it was a byproduct of them ending, he'd be fine with it.

See, I think it'd be impossible to tell this for sure because a lot of the time when DL's ending, it's usually Lindsay who's insisting that it ends/stays ended. Even if the break-up's good for both of them, if she's also hurt by it, it's totally her own fault. And I think that's how Flack would see it, because he generally seems to approve of her when they're "off-again"; he probably just figures any hurt she's feeling is an expected casualty.

Chewing someone out in front of a whole room of people is different than doing it in front of just one person.

Not if he stops worrying about privacy once he gets irritated with Sam. And besides, he's presumably known the people in that room for a really long time (and Sam likely doesn't know any of them, hence wouldn't be bothered. She didn't seem to bothered to realize that Lindsay had overheard their argument).

I think he would have done it in front of Hawkes or Adam, too... I guess he feels a level of comfort with the CSI team, but I don't think Lindsay is special or singled out in any way in that regard.

True, but I can't say he doesn't feel any sort of regard or friendship for Hawkes and Adam, and so I wouldn't say it for Lindsay either.

What did he say? I assume you mean the sleazy manager? I've forgotten, but I don't recall him hitting on her.

Skeezy guy, yes, and it was more a nod-look than anything. About ten times less subtle than the eyes that girl on the subway was giving Danny in "Risk", though, so I'm calling "come-on".

Or she went to the opera with her uncle.

In a minidress and with her hair curled? Talk about extra effort for family... Peyton didn't even go that all out when she went to the opera with Mac for his birthday :lol:

I don't remember that being the case at all. It's been a while since I've seen season two, though!

I've seen arguments for both. It's just been the way the scene was written/set out. Or it's that Pino was really supposed to keep glancing over at her, calling her Linds and (at the beginning of the autopsy) addressing all his comments to her even though Danny was there too and Lindsay hadn't said anything to him at all. I don't know, if Lindsay=Pino and Danny=Lindsay in that scene, it would've been called "crush" without a second thought, but for all I know Pino was already married at that point

Just mousy and not a standout in any way.

Debatable. Though I think Lindsay is supposed to have an "ordinary" look, the other things I've seen Anna Belknap in usually have her cast as the "guys-want-me" type of girl. So all personal opinions aside, it doesn't seem like the total-plain-Jane look was what they were searching for with Lindsay. Not to mention that if they were, she'd probably be the one anomaly in what seems to be a fairly consistent beauty standard in CSI: NY casting.

Yeah, which implies to me that she's not a great one.

Or that he doesn't want one. At least, not until she's about to not be around to make him feel loved. She's apparently cool enough when she's just a friend he can flirt with.

And I don't think we've seen anything on screen to say that she is--especially four years down the road when she clearly doesn't know the first thing about this guy she claims to love.

Yet somehow she was the only one to really have his back in "Party's Over". Also I don't know if the extra shift in "AitF" says anything about good girlfriends or not, but I doubt it would fall into the realm of "Things girlfriends do that guys just hate them for" . (Although I do think openly fretting about them after they've just had a dangerous underwater experience, might fit into that realm for a lot of guys. Just because they apparently hate being smothered/worried over. Says more about the guys than the girl.) I wouldn't pull a second 12-hour shift on the back of my own (likely) 12-hour shift for any boyfriend if he suddenly went AWOL without warning, but I don't think that'd make me a bad girlfriend, really...

Dammit, had to cut so much out this time :scream:

 

[Top41]

Yeah, after Mac had already told her "it's okay, just don't do it again." I think she was just venting after that - what would've been the point of playing that card after she'd already been let off the hook?

To play on his sympathies, to justify her actions in his eyes. It was a pretty big mess up--and she was going to lay as much of it at Danny's door as she could.

Maybe - I can see her as angry at the world. Doesn't mean that she also feels she can act as horribly as she wants and get away with it. She never goes into those situations (or even comes out of them) expecting that she's going to be let off the hook. If she did, I think she'd be a little less edgy during those situations.

I'm still not seeing this arsenal. Those 'tactics' from "Oedipus Hex" and "Silent Night" seem too risky and erratic to actually be planned tactics from an arsenal. I mean, like I said before, that Lindsay was let off the hook in both says everything about Danny and Stella, not about her. Danny might've been pretty fond of her in "Hex", Stella too in "Silent Night". That's why they worked. If Lindsay worked for anyone else, like Horatio Caine on Miami for example, and pulled the same thing she did with Stella, I think she would've gotten fired on the spot. Simply because it's doubtful that Horatio would feel that fondness for her. Getting snippy with anyone when they confront you about why you're not doing your job is not a tactic that's usually guaranteed to succeed.

But, see, why try it then? If she didn't think it would work, why do we see her getting snippy over and over again with people? I have a hard time believing all of the the NY team happen to be saps. I think her tactic is kind of a shock and awe thing--go in there aggressively to throw your opponent off kilter. And it works--we've seen it work. It gets people to back off and, in the case of Danny, do what she wants them to do.

True; I guess I could see how he would've gone either way. But still, whether he would've gone or not given the choice is kind of a moot point. He wasn't given the choice.

There was no gun held to his head, though. If Danny turned to Mac and said, "Please don't send me in there," I don't think Mac would have contemplated it for a minute. He would have just surrounded the bar and taken the guy down. But Danny wouldn't have done that--I think it was just as brave of him to go into that bar as it was of Lindsay to go rescue the hostages.

No, no one tried to stop her - she came up with an idea on the spot, they needed to get in quickly, they probably just grabbed at it because it was the first idea that came up. It wasn't the best idea. But it was her choice, because had they actually taken a moment to think about it, I doubt sending Lindsay in would've been their first choice.

Probably not, but the fact no one went to stop her indicates none of them thought she had an issue with guns. And I don't think she herself would have gone in there if she really had a paralyzing fear--she's presumably smart enough to know that to do so under those circumstances would have put the hostage and more danger, rather than less. And really, she didn't do that badly--she was freaked out, but she dropped the bag when she was supposed to and then the others came in and did their thing.

Lindsay's duties may largely be lab-ish like Adam's, but she's officially a police officer because she was directly hired as a CSI. Adam's a lab tech - that's what he was hired as. There's no mention of Lindsay ever having switched over from "lab tech" before she joined Mac's team, so I think it's safe to assume she's been a full-fledged cop for some time. And because she is, she doesn't have the same excuse Hawkes and Adam do for not being in shootouts. She's qualified.

I still think it's a case of Mac, Stella, Danny and Flack being the "action heroes" of the show, rather than anyone trying to shield fragile flower Lindsay from action. I think there would have been some comment from either Mac or Lindsay to that effect, kind of the way there was when Lindsay got mad about Mac shielding her the one time he did keep her away from a crime scene--in "Manhattan Manhunt." I also think the way she tackled suspects in season two (pre-Belknap pregnancy) and has handled plenty of firearms in the lab works against the idea of her having a fear of guns/shootouts/dangerous situations.

"Medical Investigation" is another show I've recently gotten into, and while I know Eva Rossi and Lindsay Monroe are two pretty-different characters regardless of their actress, watching Eva is so much fun in a way watching Lindsay doesn't manage to be. Just because Eva Rossi is not viewed as "untouchable", she gets chewed out and called out and then she gets to either respond or deal with it; and it's really interesting, watching Anna Belknap play a character who's not Mary-Sue-ish. I like Lindsay a lot, but I want so badly for someone to get on her case for something...for her to maybe lose someone's respect and have to earn it back.

I've only seen a handful of MI episodes (6 or so), but I like Eva Rossi a hell of a lot better than Lindsay because she comes across as more of a real person. Still somewhat a cliche--that opening scene with her pretending to seduce the journalist was one of the things that turned me off to the show when it first aired --but Anna's acting was better and the character was much less of a Mary Sue.

Danny was still in the interrogation room when Flack and Mac left, I don't think the interrogation ended completely. But Mac and Stella were pretty wired during that first interrogation in "Heroes" (with the guy who owned the burned car), visibly having lost it, but they still got something significant out of him. In one Season 3 episode (I don't remember which one, but Flack and Mac were interviewing the suspect together), Mac lost it enough to shove the interrogation table into the guy's stomach. The interrogation went on.

Interrogations get heated, sure. I highly doubt Danny salvaged that interrogation in "The Deep"--he seemed so rattled himself. But when one of the two people reins the other in, or is just there to calm things down, sure. Not that it helps the interrogation any.

And it's definitely not impossible to salvage them after said colleague has lost their cool - it could have been salvaged very easily by Danny ignoring Lindsay's outburst (like Flack ignored Mac's in the episode I mentioned above) and staying put. No, it probably wasn't Danny to do that. It's not really Lindsay to sit around after she's visibly lost it in front of anyone, either, let alone a suspect. These characters all have traits that make them act in the ways they do.

Byt Mac didn't storm out, did he? I'm not condoning his behavior--I think it's always unprofessional when they lose it with suspects. Danny unloading on the son of a victim in "The Dove Commission" was one of his worst moments, IMO. But none of that takes away from Lindsay being a big old drama queen in that moment and making it all about her--and also doing something that jeopardized an investigation.

On hiding it vs. just not going to her - I think it's the same difference, really. Because it's just in Danny's nature to vent, even unconsciously - for example, the way he vented in front of Mac and Adam (who didn't approach him btw, and did nothing except stand there even after Danny's venting-line) in "Happily Never After".

When did he vent to Adam? I don't remember that. I do remember him dropping a comment about a classroom being the last place he wanted to look for a killer--but that was hardly a soul-baring confessional. And I think he would have made that comment regardless of who was in the room... had Lindsay been there, I doubt he would have not made that comment.

I doubt that was conscious. But he never vented in front of Lindsay. Makes me think he made the conscious choice not to - equals hiding it, if you ask me. I don't disagree that she should've gone to him, but because he did hide it from her, I actually could see him being all "Lindsay, I'm fine" if she ever approached him. I could very easily see that. Especially since I really doubt he was completely unconscious of the fact that she was there for him (four subtle-but-there attempts to reach him and all).

What were the four attempts? There was the one in "Child's Play"... but that's all I remember. Lunch in RND was a maybe, though I doubt that was clear to Danny. He probably thought she just wanted to see him. Covering his shift wasn't so much an attempt to reach him as it was to cover his ass--a nice thing for sure, but if she never followed it up with, "Are you okay?" it's not really an attempt to reach him.

Honestly, was she around him all that much after Ruben's death? We never saw her trying to seek him out. Calling him because he's not showing up to work is not the same as really reaching out to him and trying to show him she's there for him. Her doing that is not an unreasonable thing for him to expect.

I actually think it's pretty equal, how often they force it out of him vs. how often he goes to them. Ie, "Heroes" - Flack was there, Danny dumped on him about Aiden.

Danny was an open wound at that point. He was gutted by Aiden's death, and he was stuck on another case. He saw Flack soon after hearing the news... I think it's natural he unloaded on Flack.

"Tanglewood" - Danny came to Mac's office just to vent a little on the Tanglewood boys.

IIRC, he came to Mac to fill Mac in on the Tanglewood boys because he knew who they are, not to vent for personal purposes.

Even in "On the Job" when the Mac/Danny relationship was at its most tense, Danny let Mac know what the problem was with him: "I don't need a lawyer" (read, "I can't believe you think I need a lawyer").

That was in direct response to Mac giving him a lawyer's card.

In "Crime and Misdemeanour", Danny did it again, letting Mac know what his problem was with him: "You think it doesn't matter?"

I admit, this one I don't remember! :lol:

The one time Danny and Lindsay had a blow-out similar to any of Mac-and-Danny's blowups, when both points-of-view might've been aired and they'd finally know what was going on with each other - Danny shut down practically before it even started. Yeah, I do think it's easier on Flack and Mac, mostly knowing what the problem is with Danny.

Yeah, but Lindsay was really just attacking him--hardly the best way to open a airing of points-of-view.

What kind of protest was the lunch thing, though? She'd barely even indicated that she was mad at him, her exact line was "That's what this is, me mad at you?"

It was obvious she was mad at him, then and earlier when she shoved the folder into his hands. He was just going with the easiest possible explanation.

If he can mostly stand up to Mac when Mac comes storming down the hallway already chewing him out hard, it's difficult for me to see that the lunch line was supposed to be a protest. I think he was honestly asking about that lunch line - he really thought that's what she was angry about.

Agreed, but he was clearly annoyed with her for being upset about it. Maybe he was frustrated that she didn't reach out for weeks and weeks, and by the time she finally made an effort, he wasn't up for it--and then she got pissed about it.

And I can't agree that when someone tells Danny he's wrong/bad, he automatically believes it. He eventually starts to believe it, after they've worn down his protests, but like with Mac, Aiden, even Stella in "Party's Over", he usually spends some time sticking up for his point of view.

Well, yeah, he's not a total doormat! But he does have low self-esteem, and it seems like he doesn't stick up for himself as much as a healthy person would. The giving up and shutting down is a marked trait of his.

With Lindsay in RND, I can see how his depression over Ruben might've lowered self-esteem, but I don't see how it would've lowered it to the point where he could say nothing. I mean, being blamed for cop-killing is pretty depressing too (and while I agree Danny was pretty low after Ruben, I think I'd have to say that "On the Job" is still the episode he's been the most distressed in, ever).

And that was when he stood there and just took it from Mac without a word when Mac laid into him after Danny spoke to IAB. It was only once he was cleared of being the one who killed Minhaus that he got some fight back in him... and even then, not much. So I think there are some real parallels between how he was in RND and how he was in OtJ.

That cold-spell wasn't just things "not being the same", imo. They weren't talking in the least, not even when they were in scenes together. At times it actually seemed like they might've been going out of their way to avoid each other (for example, the way Lindsay kind of waited until Danny left before entering Mac's office, in that episode where they were all giving up vacation time to save Adam's job. Yeah, I get the whole point of that scene was supposed to be a little humorous, what with the team entering Mac's office in a little series - but Danny and Lindsay were getting off of work at the same time. You'd think if they were dating, they'd at least wait to walk each other out, even if they weren't heading home together.) That's sort of what I meant by them not getting back together in any significant way.

Yeah, I agree... but I think that's in large part due to the fact that things were going to cool down before Anna Belknap got pregnant again, and that changed the storyline. So I think there are a few logical leaps required... I don't think Danny would think of them as "getting back together" if they'd only slept together once, in PF.

Because I think he might've assumed the one night in PF meant that they were back together (read, that she was back in his life) - and up until "The Box" left it at that ever since. Like he probably would've had Lindsay agreed to the "Jaws" thing in LWFM. If there are supposed to be a couple of months between RND and PF, then Danny waited two months to even indicate that he had something urgent he wanted to talk to Lindsay about, regarding their non-relationship. It couldn't have been that urgent, if he waited that long.

I don't think Danny, a grown thirty-something man, would assume having sex with someone once would mean they're back together. It sounds like what we're meant to pull from "The Box" is that they're still hooking up and sort of dating, but they're not close like they used to be. Neither is opening up to the other. But I can't see Danny thinking they're together if they're not sleeping together.

Exactly. But that's not much incentive to really be interested in someone for themselves. At best, it's probably only incentive to keep them around so you at least feel loved - which is basically what Danny seems to do.

Yeah, I think it definitely speaks to his abandonment issues--which is not to excuse it at all. But it does seem like it's almost a self-preservation instinct, this need to keep her around once he realizes she's in love with him.

For me, it's really not much better that Danny would respond to anyone as a girlfriend the same way he's always responded to Lindsay as a girlfriend, although it does support what I've always thought: Lindsay is no more special to Danny than Cindy or any of his other girlfriends were, because he does seem to respond to both (or all) of them in similar blase/bored ways. I think he's sweet with them, because that's who Danny is, but I doubt he took a genuine interest in them any more than he's ever taken an interest in Lindsay (before Lucy, I mean). Of course it's great for him, he gets to feel loved and he probably doesn't ever willingly choose to let that go - but it's hell on the women involved, I'd imagine. Because he's not capable of actually loving someone, I really really doubt that Lindsay's the first who's gone through this cycle.

Probably not, though I don't think Danny just keeps people around to feel better about himself. I do think he tries to please them/be what they want to some extent... but because of the way he is, he's always testing/frustrating people. He's difficult for sure, but he probably needs someone tough who can break down his walls and not be freaked out by the extreme emotional vulnerability behind them.

And it's totally weakness - I just don't think it's only desire that's driving that weakness. I doubt desire is a strong enough motive for anyone to go for that, the way Lindsay's gone for it with Danny. Like I said, she's setting herself up for a fall, which would be explainable if she were at least unaware of it - but she knows it. And imo, desire's not a strong enough motive to set yourself up for that, because desire could easily be fulfilled without signing up for loveless marriages and whatnot.

What do you think it is then? That she's just completely drawn to his otherness, how different he is from her? That he's a puzzle she wants to solve or fix?

Except that it didn't placate her and she didn't have him, not if the S5 cold-spell and even "The Box" are any indication. Additionally, there was certainly less chance that she'd run from his apartment directly into the rain in PF, than there was that she'd run from him when they were at work in the lab. But he somehow still felt the need to approach her when they were in the lab, assuming he was approaching her about something non-get-back-together-y during LWFM and early-PF. If that something was really urgent, I don't see why he would've just given up on saying it once he already had her at his apartment, where she'd have to talk to him or run back out into the rain.

She was walking in the rain before she came over to see him--purposefully. I don't see how she would be any less likely to go back out into the rain than she would be to run from him at work. At work they have to interact if they're on the same case. If she's at his place and he wants to say something she doesn't want to hear, she can just bail.

Well, we know that he didn't, because if he'd given Lindsay what she wanted she wouldn't have had the response to him she did in "The Box".

Maybe, but he obviously gave her enough for them to be together, even if it wasn't the same. She still wanted him--she didn't move on.

Yeah, but it still basically means that Danny talked to Flack and didn't run when Flack approached him. Flack didn't really force him into anything, Danny gave up the numbers to him very quickly, whatever the reasons were. It didn't take excessive effort.

Flack didn't force Danny into anything, but his stance suggested he was more than willing to. And I think Danny got that, and reacted to it. I absolutely believed Flack would have physically prevented Danny from leaving had Danny not turned over the numbers, and I think Danny believed it, too. Danny got downright passive when Flack turned up the aggression. There was no question in my mind who was boss in that scene. I think Flack is physically stronger than Danny--he was able to pull Danny off Ollie--and I think he used that physical dominance in the earlier scene to show Danny he wasn't messing around.

 

[Top41]

Flack does tend to coddle Danny, especially when he's venting - which is why I think he went to him rather than Aiden or Mac, neither of whom were as likely to do the coddling. I think Danny knew Flack would be the one most likely to listen and take it well if he just wanted to vent and be angry or frustrated, which is really what he did - their conversation kind of kept going around in circles, with Flack giving the same kind of comforting/sensible answers and Danny barely hearing them before he stormed out. I think Danny ultimately wanted to hear something reassuring from someone who could guarantee things would be okay, but just during that meeting with Flack I think he just wanted that venting opportunity.

Probably, but I felt so bad for Flack! Here he was, probably up early before his shift, trying to reassure an emotional, irrational Danny... and then he got walked out on. The guy really does go out of his way for Danny.

She left an investigation on her own when she realized she'd freaked out - some CSI's have to actually be dragged out of interrogations after freak-outs (even Mac in "The Deep"). How is that less dramatic?

It's not, but two wrongs don't make a right. I wouldn't condone Mac's behavior either--though it least it was in reaction to the case at hand itself and not freaking out about something unrelated--in the most self-centered way possible.

And I don't see how, after watching Danny get slapped simply for telling the mom that her daughter loved her, Lindsay (or anyone, really) would've just assumed the mom would respond better to a videotape showing her daughter saying she loved her.

Well, presumably the shock had worn off... which made it less likely that the mother would react the same way. That, and the fact that she'd clearly come in to see the tape (or because the police had asked her), indicating she'd cooled a bit.

I mean, Danny was actually looking very reluctant to take the mother a second time at the end of "Hex". I don't think he was assuming she'd take the videotape any better than she took the tattoo.

Well, he was the one who got hit. Him being gun shy is understandable.

Those were moments when she was written as making mistakes. She owned up to them/tried to make up for them. That says a lot about her character.

You mean OE, not AA, right? Because she never admitted she was wrong or tried to make up for anything in All Access. The way she did it in OE was so self-aggrandizing... look at me, "It's the job." That irritated me so much. Now it's the job?? Funny how she didn't feel that way initially. I would have liked a bit more straightforward acknowledgement. As it was... I felt like she felt she deserved a pat on the back for condescending to do what she should have done in the first place.

The big things are never the mistakes she's actually written as making. I totally doubt we were supposed to see Lindsay in the wrong by the end of "Silent Night". And I know it's been covered before, but same thing for the RND blowout.

But then why do they stick out as mistakes? I don't think Lindsay didn't make a mistake in Silent Night so much as it's supposed to be negated by her past. In RND, I'm not really sure who we're supposed to side with. I think we're supposed to feel bad for Danny, but also for Lindsay. I didn't, in part because I saw the lack of effort she made to reach out to him--and given what he was going through, thought it was incredibly selfish of her to turn around and try to make him feel bad about something else when it was so obvious that he was grieving deeply.

Waiting for her to come to him, yeah, but she wasn't exactly radiating that she didn't give a care about him.

I don't think he did it entirely consciously. I do think Danny expects people to reach out to him, though.

On the other hand, Lindsay may not have the strongest knowledge of Danny's character, but if she felt he wouldn't care even if she did tell him about her pregnancy, I could easily see how she might've gotten that message from Season 4 and early-Season 5.

I honestly don't. I can see how she might not think he'd want to marry her, but I can't see her honestly thinking this emotional, sensitive, sweet guy who went out of his way for somebody else's kid wouldn't care about finding out he was going to have one of his own. It just shows how self-involved she is... and how at best his feelings are an afterthought to her.

Enjoying his body by night, and not even meeting his eye by day (for ten episodes, and presumably at least 3 months)? Doesn't add up for me - I mean, even in early Season 2, when I think that sort of casual relationship was exactly what Lindsay was looking for, she was pretty set on flirting with him at the office.

I still don't buy that she was just looking for a casual relationship in season two--I think she really liked him and went out of her way to flirt/spend time with him. As for season five... again, I think the reversal due to Belknap's pregnancy explains much of that.

I think it's more likely that Danny took PF to mean they'd gotten back together, even if they didn't have to talk once after that "make-up". If they were sleeping together during the first part of S5, why would PF have to be the night Lindsay got pregnant? Even if there was a huge time-jump in Season 4, and PF is actually supposed to take place in September, that's still about two months during which Lindsay could've gotten pregnant and had it make more sense.

I think the producers picked that night because it was when we were able to presume they hooked up. It was an easy sell to the fans.

Because that was the nice thing to do, and Danny's flat-out a nice guy. He could totally have ignored her after her outburst and let business continue as usual, work-wise...but that would've been cold, which no CSI character has ever really been when letting someone down. That's not Danny - he wouldn't have let her down any other way except gently, but he would have let her down, and gently or not I think it'd still sting. And I think it'd already gone down that unpleasant path she was likely afraid of when he said "I'm sorry, we should talk". Hence her cutting him off. She looked directly at him when he said her name right before the "I'm sorry" line, which indicated she was about to hear him out.

Couldn't "I'm sorry" mean he felt bad for hurting her? He certainly seemed to. I just don't think there was any way for her to know what he was going to say.

But Lindsay all but told him in "The Triangle" that she'd make sure he had legal rights to the baby ("I'm not going anywhere, you're not going anywhere").

"I'm not going anywhere" is not the same thing as "I'm going to give you legal rights to this child." As we've seen from Lindsay, she bails. What if she had decided to go back to Montana? I think Danny had every reason to worry--especially taking into account how insecure he is.

Turning down the proposal the first time kind of implied she knew marriage wasn't what was best for them, and that above line of hers implied she knew what was. But the only way Danny would've gained legal rights without marriage is by waiting until Lucy was born, which he apparently wasn't willing to do. And again, Lindsay's weakness came into play , because I agree...she wants to believe he loves her, even as she knows he doesn't. Gah!

Do you think she knows? Or do you think she allowed herself to believe what he was saying, and that one paltry utterance in "The Triangle." (Did he tell her he loved her again in the courthouse? I can't remember.)

Does Danny really want to believe he loves her? I think when Lucy was in her he might've wanted to believe it, if only so he could convince her of it. But Lucy's half-legally his now, so the main reason driving his urge to believe he loves Lindsay is basically gone.

I think it's a little more than wanting Lucy--I do think he wants a happy family. He's got that now. The question is, will it last? Can it last if he's not in love with her? Or will having that security make him love her?

I don't agree. "Treat others the way you'd like to be treated" is one of the oldest platitudes in the book, and it's just human nature to project your own feelings and personality onto someone else, especially when you either don't know or understand that person. And especially in Season 2 and 3 (even a little in Season 4), Danny might as well have been from Mars for all Lindsay understood him. How frequently do people assume everyone around them must feel the same way about a certain subject, just because they feel that way about it? It happens all the time. But I doubt those people are just viewing "everyone" as props there for their own convenience. That's what "prop" means to me, seeing people as having no feelings except those that suit you. It's not what Lindsay's doing with Danny; she sees him as someone with feelings/opinions, but I think she often assumes a lot of those feelings/opinions are similar to hers.

But she's been projecting for four years, even though I think it was obvious from the first that Danny was nothing like her. Indeed, I think that's what fascinated her and drew her in. So it's hard to not see the way she treats him as shoddy, because she never takes into account that he has emotions and feelings of his own.

With Ruben's death, it was that he chose to shut her out. Of course he was grieving - to everyone else around him, and I'm not seeing how Lindsay's non-right to make a complaint about it would change that. I don't think he shut her out because he was grieving; he was venting to people who didn't reach out to him any more than Lindsay did (less so, actually, because Lindsay did make her efforts).

Save for the one comment about looking for a killer at a kindergarten, I don't remember him venting without prompting at all.

Being entirely fair, I'm not sure that a strong case of Lindsay-projecting is the only way anyone would assume Danny could shut off his feelings for Lindsay...I mean to be honest, what feelings? His interest in S2 was reflective and even then only casually so. I didn't see any hint of strong romantic interest until "Love Run Cold", after she'd already skipped out on the date (I know 'Not What it Looks Like' is usually highlighted by a lot of people to show that Danny was so into Lindsay even as early as that...but swap Flack and Sam in for Danny and Lindsay during those final scenes in NWiLL. You wouldn't see much of a difference). Danny isn't one for shutting off whatever feelings he has, but if Lindsay assumed his interest in her was weak enough to be able to shut off, it wasn't the most out-there assumption.

I would think him trying to be there for her even after she stood him up on a date would quickly indicate otherwise. And again, Danny is a big bundle of emotions. He gets deeply invested in cases--it's not a big leap to assume he's the same way with people he's around all the time.

I think she'd've actually had more of a chance to get what she wanted if she'd insisted that they stay unmarried. If she recognized that he wanted that happy-family image so badly, and made him wait until after Lucy was born, she would've at least been a little surer that he was marrying her for her, rather than for Lucy. It's not an assurance she has now. But waiting would clearly have meant leaving Danny to worry for almost three weeks that she might never be coming back. I'm not seeing a whole lot of benefit that Lindsay got out of the whole shotgun wedding (aside from being married to him, which she could have had in a better way had she made him wait). Whereas Danny got his reassurance. I think that shows whose feelings she was considering more.

Maybe she was being selfish, too? Maybe she was afraid Lucy would be born and he wouldn't want to marry her anymore?

Agreed :lol: But I do know it's an idea that some people have had, and in other fandoms outside of CSI: NY, it's freaky how often you come across it.

Have people said that about Lindsay? I admit, I've got no love for the character, but I'd never think that in a million years.

She's allowed to come to whatever conclusion she wants, but the choice had always been left up to him. If the conclusion was a wrong one, it was up to him to show her that, not up to her to change her mind without confirmation (unless she'd been implying she was going to keep him from the baby, which she wasn't). Still agree that Lindsay doesn't know Danny, but it has nothing to do with how well she knew him or how little she thought of him. There are plenty of girls who've been stepped out on by guys who they thought walked on water - even if someone is the greatest person in the world, there's no real way to be completely certain what they're going to be like when approached about a baby, because that's a whole new ballgame. I hate to fall back on the Miami Eric/Natalia thing again, but even Natalia was half-expecting that Eric wouldn't want anything to do with her when she thought she was pregnant, and she didn't have even half the reasons Lindsay might've had with Danny to assume that. Eric and Natalia got along great; Lindsay and Danny were barely on speaking terms by the time Lindsay would've found out she was pregnant.

I don't think they were barely on speaking terms, but regardless, she needed to tell him about the baby for him to show her the conclusion was wrong. He shouldn't have had to chase her down to find out the truth.

True, and yet he formed a dynamic with her outside of Danny anyway. He totally didn't expect her to be Danny's girlfriend for so long, and accordingly, didn't get to know her or start bantering with her or calling her Linds just because she was "Danny's girlfriend". Over half the time, she isn't Danny's girlfriend. And I don't think Flack has colleagues he doesn't care about in the slightest. After Mac and Stella, he's the person most devoted to his colleagues (CSIs and the cops under him). He even seemed pretty ripped up about Officer Truby in S3. Nor do I think Lindsay's the exception to the rule

True, but I can't say he doesn't feel any sort of regard or friendship for Hawkes and Adam, and so I wouldn't say it for Lindsay either.

Agreed, I think he likes them all well enough. But I don't think any of them are in the same league as Danny, Stella and Mac (in that order) for him.

Skeezy guy, yes, and it was more a nod-look than anything. About ten times less subtle than the eyes that girl on the subway was giving Danny in "Risk", though, so I'm calling "come-on".

I don't remember that--another in my list of eps to go back and watch.

In a minidress and with her hair curled? Talk about extra effort for family... Peyton didn't even go that all out when she went to the opera with Mac for his birthday :lol:

People dress up nice for the opera! Sure, it's possible she had a date--likely even. Though we never saw or heard about him.

I've seen arguments for both. It's just been the way the scene was written/set out. Or it's that Pino was really supposed to keep glancing over at her, calling her Linds and (at the beginning of the autopsy) addressing all his comments to her even though Danny was there too and Lindsay hadn't said anything to him at all. I don't know, if Lindsay=Pino and Danny=Lindsay in that scene, it would've been called "crush" without a second thought, but for all I know Pino was already married at that point

That sounds kind of standard expo to two characters scene to me though. I really don't think it was meant to imply Pino was crushing on her. The CSI shows aren't subtle when it comes to people hitting on/being interested in the characters.

Debatable. Though I think Lindsay is supposed to have an "ordinary" look, the other things I've seen Anna Belknap in usually have her cast as the "guys-want-me" type of girl. So all personal opinions aside, it doesn't seem like the total-plain-Jane look was what they were searching for with Lindsay. Not to mention that if they were, she'd probably be the one anomaly in what seems to be a fairly consistent beauty standard in CSI: NY casting.

I think in other roles she's supposed to be playing the sexy girl next door--I guess her brittleness really detracts from that IMO. She's so flinty that it's hard to imagine anyone being drawn to her.

Yet somehow she was the only one to really have his back in "Party's Over". Also I don't know if the extra shift in "AitF" says anything about good girlfriends or not, but I doubt it would fall into the realm of "Things girlfriends do that guys just hate them for" . (Although I do think openly fretting about them after they've just had a dangerous underwater experience, might fit into that realm for a lot of guys. Just because they apparently hate being smothered/worried over. Says more about the guys than the girl.) I wouldn't pull a second 12-hour shift on the back of my own (likely) 12-hour shift for any boyfriend if he suddenly went AWOL without warning, but I don't think that'd make me a bad girlfriend, really...

I certainly won't argue that she's never done anything nice for him. She has. But funny how it never involves dealing with him on an emotional level.

 

[Maya316]

But, see, why try it then? If she didn't think it would work, why do we see her getting snippy over and over again with people? I have a hard time believing all of the the NY team happen to be saps. I think her tactic is kind of a shock and awe thing--go in there aggressively to throw your opponent off kilter. And it works--we've seen it work. It gets people to back off and, in the case of Danny, do what she wants them to do.

Because people get snippy. It happens. Every character in this franchise has gotten snippy more than once. Hell, I get snippy (in RL, hopefully not on the internet ) - I don't plan for it, my temper just sometimes gets short. And I could easily believe Lindsay has a short fuse. For the record, most times people tend to snap back when Lindsay gets snippy with them. Or at least Danny and Stella do. They cave when she tells them why she's being snippy, but then, they're fond of her. That says more about them. And (though I believe they're fond of each other too) Lindsay snaps at Adam often enough, and it's usually not to get him to do something she wants him to do. Or if it is, it doesn't always work.

There was no gun held to his head, though. If Danny turned to Mac and said, "Please don't send me in there," I don't think Mac would have contemplated it for a minute. He would have just surrounded the bar and taken the guy down. But Danny wouldn't have done that--I think it was just as brave of him to go into that bar as it was of Lindsay to go rescue the hostages.

Yes it was, but my point was more that Shane specifically pointed him out to go. Shane set the plan, Danny followed. I don't think anyone would've made Danny go if he didn't want to, but if he was willing then it was going to be him to go in, since Shane might not have talked to anyone else. Had Lindsay kept quiet in NWiLL, I can't imagine anyone would've come up with the idea to send her in. She made the plan herself.

Probably not, but the fact no one went to stop her indicates none of them thought she had an issue with guns. And I don't think she herself would have gone in there if she really had a paralyzing fear--she's presumably smart enough to know that to do so under those circumstances would have put the hostage and more danger, rather than less. And really, she didn't do that badly--she was freaked out, but she dropped the bag when she was supposed to and then the others came in and did their thing.

Well, she did put the hostage and herself in more danger - I mean, that decision to go in was more than a little rash, considering Lindsay was made almost as soon as she walked in. That's why I think it was a knee-jerk reaction/decision for her; dead-teenage-girl vs. guns, the girl won out. Lindsay dropped the bag when she was figured out, but I think that was more of an unconscious move than what was planned. If Mosi Ghedi had more of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy, she and the girl easily could've been killed. The bag still would've been dropped, not that it would've mattered.

I still think it's a case of Mac, Stella, Danny and Flack being the "action heroes" of the show, rather than anyone trying to shield fragile flower Lindsay from action. I think there would have been some comment from either Mac or Lindsay to that effect, kind of the way there was when Lindsay got mad about Mac shielding her the one time he did keep her away from a crime scene--in "Manhattan Manhunt." I also think the way she tackled suspects in season two (pre-Belknap pregnancy) and has handled plenty of firearms in the lab works against the idea of her having a fear of guns/shootouts/dangerous situations.

True...but then, they didn't really start keeping Lindsay away from high-risk situations until Season 3 and afterward. Most likely due to Belknap's pregnancy, yeah. I don't think she was initially supposed to have that fear, but once they had the storyline (long after Lindsay's character was introduced), it did seem like they tried to keep to it. For the most part.

I've only seen a handful of MI episodes (6 or so), but I like Eva Rossi a hell of a lot better than Lindsay because she comes across as more of a real person. Still somewhat a cliche--that opening scene with her pretending to seduce the journalist was one of the things that turned me off to the show when it first aired --but Anna's acting was better and the character was much less of a Mary Sue.

Yeah, exactly! And LOL, I actually really loved the first MI episode - I agree that the seduction scene was so cliche, but when the reporter stopped falling for it and she resorted to locking him in the hospital basement and shutting off all the lights? That I didn't expect, and it made me laugh :lol: They desperately need that element with Lindsay, to have her actually mess up, have everyone acknowledge it, and make her fix it.

Byt Mac didn't storm out, did he? I'm not condoning his behavior--I think it's always unprofessional when they lose it with suspects. Danny unloading on the son of a victim in "The Dove Commission" was one of his worst moments, IMO. But none of that takes away from Lindsay being a big old drama queen in that moment and making it all about her--and also doing something that jeopardized an investigation.

No it doesn't take away from Lindsay's losing it in that room - what does, IMO, is her removing herself from the interrogation. I don't see that as being drama-queen-ish - I doubt the suspect would've cared one whit that she was gone if Danny hadn't gone after her. And her leaving didn't jeopardize the investigation, although Danny's leaving after her might have.

When did he vent to Adam? I don't remember that. I do remember him dropping a comment about a classroom being the last place he wanted to look for a killer--but that was hardly a soul-baring confessional. And I think he would have made that comment regardless of who was in the room... had Lindsay been there, I doubt he would have not made that comment.

That killer comment was more soul-bearing than his "His name was Ruben, he was ten" to Angell. It told both Mac and Adam what his problem was, even if they didn't know what to do with it. And yeah, I can believe he made that comment regardless of who was in the room, but if he could do that I find it more than a little strange that he couldn't do something similar at a time when Lindsay was in the room.

What were the four attempts? There was the one in "Child's Play"... but that's all I remember. Lunch in RND was a maybe, though I doubt that was clear to Danny. He probably thought she just wanted to see him. Covering his shift wasn't so much an attempt to reach him as it was to cover his ass--a nice thing for sure, but if she never followed it up with, "Are you okay?" it's not really an attempt to reach him. Honestly, was she around him all that much after Ruben's death? We never saw her trying to seek him out. Calling him because he's not showing up to work is not the same as really reaching out to him and trying to show him she's there for him. Her doing that is not an unreasonable thing for him to expect.

I count the shift-taking, but more the phone call(s) she gave him before she went to Flack in "AitF". Yeah, she might've just called wanting to know why the hell he wasn't at work, but that she called at all indicates she was concerned. And I'm not seeing how he could've missed that. Why would he expect those calls and not take them to mean she cared? He's not on her payroll. If he doesn't do his job or loses it, it logically doesn't affect her any more than it affected Hawkes that day. It's Mac he should've been expecting a call from, maybe Stella. If he expected Lindsay to care that he might lose his job, I'm not seeing how he would've also assumed she didn't care about him.

IIRC, he came to Mac to fill Mac in on the Tanglewood boys because he knew who they are, not to vent for personal purposes.

Mac came to him to get that information for the case, and Danny filled him in. Danny stopped by his office later for no reason except to talk about how he felt bad for those Tanglewood kids.

That was in direct response to Mac giving him a lawyer's card.

True, but handing him that card probably told Danny that Mac thought he needed a lawyer because he was guilty. And Danny sounded like he was responding more to that assumption than to the card itself.

I admit, this one I don't remember! :lol:

It was during their fight at the end; Mac said something about Danny closing the case against his orders, and how he shouldn't have bothered with it, and then Danny said his "doesn't matter" line. *puts on "Geekiest CSI:NY Fan" hat* :lol:

Yeah, but Lindsay was really just attacking him--hardly the best way to open a airing of points-of-view.

Lindsay was not attacking him, at least not until he went silent during the pause. She accused him of something he'd just done (just as Mac started off with in C&M); and then aired her point-of-view.

It was obvious she was mad at him, then and earlier when she shoved the folder into his hands. He was just going with the easiest possible explanation.

Yeah, but both the lunch and birthday thing were just that - explanations for why she might be mad. I think he was needling her, but he wasn't giving his own side of things the way he usually does when he's fighting with someone and being defensive.

Agreed, but he was clearly annoyed with her for being upset about it. Maybe he was frustrated that she didn't reach out for weeks and weeks, and by the time she finally made an effort, he wasn't up for it--and then she got pissed about it.

And then he didn't defend himself - which he usually does when he's sure he's in the right. I totally agree he was irritated with her about being upset over the lunch thing, because it was almost like he was specifically needling her. But that's why I think he really should have finished what he started, especially since he had a good defense (she didn't come to him, either).

And that was when he stood there and just took it from Mac without a word when Mac laid into him after Danny spoke to IAB. It was only once he was cleared of being the one who killed Minhaus that he got some fight back in him... and even then, not much. So I think there are some real parallels between how he was in RND and how he was in OtJ.

Still have to see that episode again, but wasn't Mac directly laying into him about talking to IAB? Because Danny was wrong for doing that, and given that he'd just found that out himself I'm not surprised he went silent. That's the parallel I'm seeing with RND; he went silent when being accused of something he knew he was guilty of, not for something someone made him think he was guilty of. At the end, Mac still thought Danny handled the shooting wrong, and that idea was what Danny was fighting until he finally gave up.

Yeah, I agree... but I think that's in large part due to the fact that things were going to cool down before Anna Belknap got pregnant again, and that changed the storyline. So I think there are a few logical leaps required... I don't think Danny would think of them as "getting back together" if they'd only slept together once, in PF.

Pulling a random example, "My Name is Mac Taylor" (and I think they had to know of Anna Belknap's pregnancy at least then) - toward the beginning they were in the shot processing a scene alone together, and neither of them spoke or even looked at each other until Hawkes came up. And then they spoke to him, not to each other. If Lindsay was already edgy because she knew she was pregnant, I could get that, but what's Danny's excuse? I think the silence between them was on purpose, even after producers knew they were writing in the pregnancy. Given how huge a shift that pregnancy is supposed to be from S4, why not at least throw a line into an earlier episode indicating they were sleeping together?

I don't think Danny, a grown thirty-something man, would assume having sex with someone once would mean they're back together. It sounds like what we're meant to pull from "The Box" is that they're still hooking up and sort of dating, but they're not close like they used to be. Neither is opening up to the other. But I can't see Danny thinking they're together if they're not sleeping together.

Well, we know what they (or at least, Lindsay) are like when they're sleeping together, or have recently slept together, even if they're mad at each other. Flirty. Not great at hiding it. Even in "Hostage" they were pretty cold with each other but Lindsay still gave Danny this kind of look (which I presumed earlier was over the PF phone call, now I guess it could be because of the PF-hookup). And there was nothing like that at all in Season 5 - not even in "My Name is Mac Taylor" when they were all silent-treatment with each other in their brief scene together in the beginning. That wasn't "not close", that was "not sleeping together". I think it's very likely that Danny might've just been referring to the one night in PF when he said they got back together - or even taken that night to mean they were. Maybe assuming Lindsay wouldn't have taken him up on his offer if she weren't interested in a renewed relationship.

Probably not, though I don't think Danny just keeps people around to feel better about himself. I do think he tries to please them/be what they want to some extent... but because of the way he is, he's always testing/frustrating people. He's difficult for sure, but he probably needs someone tough who can break down his walls and not be freaked out by the extreme emotional vulnerability behind them.

Well, he doesn't keep them around to genuinely be interested in them, or even to engage with them on an emotional level, really. Not girlfriends, anyway - he's very different with friends, but then friendship doesn't have that same level of commitment. I do think he goes all-out to please people and be what they want him to be, but I think that's more so they'll approve of him and therefore will stick around/love him, then out of any actual interest in what they want. Again, just speaking in terms of girlfriends, although I see tiny signs of the same thing in his relationship with Mac. With Lindsay, again: if he were trying to please her out of an interest in what she wanted, rather than pleasing her in the way he thinks she wants to be pleased so she'll stick around, I think that relationship would actually be a little healthier. Or at least, that there'd be less of the "illusions" and the mistrust and the not-talking. She's the one who runs, but it's only her who's ever indicated she wants to work out the kinks in their relationship.

What do you think it is then? That she's just completely drawn to his otherness, how different he is from her? That he's a puzzle she wants to solve or fix?

I'm not sure...I think the puzzle analogy is a good one, although I think if it were just about wanting to fix him, she wouldn't let him get away with so much (like skipping shifts or going on strike). She also might've pushed a little more when he was grieving over Ruben, if only to find out why he was acting the way he did. I think it might be a mix; of both caring about him a lot and being really drawn to him. It's weird, I can't pinpoint what it was that made her say yes to that wedding and that marriage, since neither really benefit her and she knows it. But it had to have been strong. I don't think plain desire is that strong.

She was walking in the rain before she came over to see him--purposefully. I don't see how she would be any less likely to go back out into the rain than she would be to run from him at work. At work they have to interact if they're on the same case. If she's at his place and he wants to say something she doesn't want to hear, she can just bail.

Then he could have said it while they were in the middle of doing whatever they did that night in PF - she could hardly run then. My point is that there were fifteen episodes in total between RND and "The Box", and Lindsay came to him during at least one of them. I can't believe that if he'd had something really urgent to say to her about their relationship, he wouldn't have dropped more of a hint than "we should talk" in all that time. And we know that Danny doesn't let go of things that easily - meaning that if he had something to say back in RND, he still has to say it to this day. I can't see him hanging onto it that long without saying it. If nothing else, it would've started weighing on his mind too much to keep silent.

Maybe, but he obviously gave her enough for them to be together, even if it wasn't the same. She still wanted him--she didn't move on.

I actually think she might've been in the process of moving on after PF until she found out she was pregnant. "It wasn't the same" even before the Season 5 silent-spell, because they were a little icy with each other in "Taxi and Hostage". He might've given her enough to be together for that one night in PF, but it didn't seem like she was getting much more after that. Which means she couldn't have gotten exactly what she wanted that night in PF, either.

Flack didn't force Danny into anything, but his stance suggested he was more than willing to. And I think Danny got that, and reacted to it. I absolutely believed Flack would have physically prevented Danny from leaving had Danny not turned over the numbers, and I think Danny believed it, too. Danny got downright passive when Flack turned up the aggression. There was no question in my mind who was boss in that scene. I think Flack is physically stronger than Danny--he was able to pull Danny off Ollie--and I think he used that physical dominance in the earlier scene to show Danny he wasn't messing around.

I don't agree on this...I think Danny got the hint that Flack wasn't leaving, but I don't believe they ever would've come to blows or physical aggression over it, and I don't think Danny did either. Not just because he knows Flack, but doesn't Danny get really defensive when he's confronted with aggression of any kind?

 

[Maya316]

Probably, but I felt so bad for Flack! Here he was, probably up early before his shift, trying to reassure an emotional, irrational Danny... and then he got walked out on. The guy really does go out of his way for Danny.

LOL, same. Flack's an amazing guy for putting up with it! But then, that's why I think Danny called him. Mac and Aiden love(d) him, but I can't see them having tolerated the walking-out - not because it was such a horrible thing to do, just that I don't see either of them putting up with that sort of behaviour - and I think Danny knew that.

It's not, but two wrongs don't make a right. I wouldn't condone Mac's behavior either--though it least it was in reaction to the case at hand itself and not freaking out about something unrelated--in the most self-centered way possible.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but a more mature reaction to correct that wrong .. does make a right, as far as I'm concerned. Mac lost it, he should have left the investigation. Also, why is it self-centered and unprofessional when Lindsay gets riled during an investigation about something unrelated to that investigation - but when Stella does it ("Open and Shut"), not so much? I don't think either of them were being self-centered, for the record.

Well, presumably the shock had worn off... which made it less likely that the mother would react the same way. That, and the fact that she'd clearly come in to see the tape (or because the police had asked her), indicating she'd cooled a bit.

Or she'd been there most of the day, and was still there when they showed her the tape. And additionally, if Danny-from-Child's-Play (and most other victims' families on these shows) is any example, don't people tend to get more worked up and upset after they've had a chance to think about what happened? There was no way to reasonably predict the mom would be any less wired than she was the first time Danny interviewed her.

You mean OE, not AA, right? Because she never admitted she was wrong or tried to make up for anything in All Access. The way she did it in OE was so self-aggrandizing... look at me, "It's the job." That irritated me so much. Now it's the job?? Funny how she didn't feel that way initially. I would have liked a bit more straightforward acknowledgement. As it was... I felt like she felt she deserved a pat on the back for condescending to do what she should have done in the first place.

To me, she sounded reluctantly resigned in OE with her "It's the job" line, especially since she seemed like she wanted to be anywhere else but where she was during that last scene with the mother. Either way, she realized she was wrong to blow off her duties, and did her job the next time around. In AA, she left the room directly after she blew up. I see that as her trying to correct the mistake. I saw the CSI Vegas episode last night where Warrick's mentor's daughter was killed, and he had to be dragged from an interrogation by Grissom after he lost it - I like Warrick, but I still really have to stand by my admiration that Lindsay removed herself.

But then why do they stick out as mistakes? I don't think Lindsay didn't make a mistake in Silent Night so much as it's supposed to be negated by her past. In RND, I'm not really sure who we're supposed to side with. I think we're supposed to feel bad for Danny, but also for Lindsay. I didn't, in part because I saw the lack of effort she made to reach out to him--and given what he was going through, thought it was incredibly selfish of her to turn around and try to make him feel bad about something else when it was so obvious that he was grieving deeply.

They stick out as mistakes to me, and to you and to others - but to many people, they don't. Enough people that I can't think the producers weren't trying for that effect. In whole parts of the fandom, I've run into very very few people who think Lindsay was at all in the wrong during the RND mess, for example, and even people who think it was Stella to blame in Silent Night. Whereas most everyone I've talked to agree that Lindsay's blowing up at the suspect in "All Access" or shoving her job onto Danny in "Hex" were definite Lindsay-mess-up scenes.

I honestly don't. I can see how she might not think he'd want to marry her, but I can't see her honestly thinking this emotional, sensitive, sweet guy who went out of his way for somebody else's kid wouldn't care about finding out he was going to have one of his own. It just shows how self-involved she is... and how at best his feelings are an afterthought to her.

Well, what did he do when that kid died? Grieve, obviously, as expected, but also let himself go, risked his job, pushed people away, became borderline self-destructive...I mean, I personally didn't expect Danny to actually walk when he found out about his kid, but even I was half-expecting him to initially push Lindsay away a bit, have a little more of an emotional dilemma. If he was feeling so responsible over Ruben's death, he might not think he could take care of a kid of his own, even that he was deserving of a kid of his own; or maybe he didn't want to be around children anymore. There was really no way to completely predict how Danny was going to act in that situation, even setting aside the mess that was their "relationship". I've seen that enough people around the internet were predicting completely different responses. That's actually why I think "The Box" was so wholly devoted to Danny's response. Given the way things left off in S4, it was his response that was the biggest question mark to most viewers. Why would it not have also been a question mark to Lindsay?

I think the producers picked that night because it was when we were able to presume they hooked up. It was an easy sell to the fans.

I don't know, from what I've seen, a PF-hookup was taken pretty skeptically even among DL fans. They knew before S5 started airing that they were writing in Anna Belknap's pregnancy, why wouldn't there at least be three words exchanged between Lindsay and Danny before "The Box"? Three words would barely have to be added to a script, they could just throw in something to indicate they were sleeping together. D and L talked more during their actual breakup (LWFM to PF) than they did after PF.

Couldn't "I'm sorry" mean he felt bad for hurting her? He certainly seemed to. I just don't think there was any way for her to know what he was going to say.

It could have - I'm sure he did feel bad that she'd gotten hurt. But coming off the back of a "love confession" like the one Lindsay had just spilled, it seemed the worst way to word things if they'd intended us to not see it as a breakup line. Why not at least say "I'm sorry I hurt you" or "I'm sorry you're angry", specify what he's sorry about? As a viewer, I took it into context - the sleeping with Rikki, the disinterest in Season 4, the even more pointed disinterest and shut-out after Child's Play...I mean, he doesn't feel the same way about Lindsay, why would he not be telling her so when the chance actually comes up? Even if she didn't know about Rikki (still think it's a big if, but maybe), the context was still thick enough for Lindsay to reasonably guess what "I'm sorry, we should talk" would mean after she'd told him she loves him. And I'm not seeing how their later interactions until PF should have convinced her she was wrong, especially if we consider there were a couple of months between RND and PF.

"I'm not going anywhere" is not the same thing as "I'm going to give you legal rights to this child." As we've seen from Lindsay, she bails. What if she had decided to go back to Montana? I think Danny had every reason to worry--especially taking into account how insecure he is.

She bails, she doesn't lie. If she directly told him she wasn't going anywhere, it's as good as telling him she'd make sure he had legal rights to the child.

And he never directly asked for legal rights to the child. She directly answered the question he did seem to be asking her. If he'd asked for it, I'm sure she would've said "I'll give you legal rights to this child", worded like that or similar to that.

Do you think she knows? Or do you think she allowed herself to believe what he was saying, and that one paltry utterance in "The Triangle." (Did he tell her he loved her again in the courthouse? I can't remember.)

(He didn't say "I love you" in the courthouse, just implied it using almost every Harlequin-cliche there is.)

I think with Lindsay, it's that feeling of wanting to believe something so badly that you make it true for yourself, even as you know the real truth on that harsh, basic level in your mind. I think she knows he doesn't love her, on that harsh basic level. Fact is, the basic level is always the little voice that keeps intruding on your fantasy at the back of your mind. For Lindsay, it often seems like that voice is loud enough to stop her from going too deep into the fantasy (period after PF, the Triangle), and then sometimes it doesn't seem loud enough (PF itself, Green Piece).

I think it's a little more than wanting Lucy--I do think he wants a happy family. He's got that now. The question is, will it last? Can it last if he's not in love with her? Or will having that security make him love her?

Good question. Although I doubt it because even in GfD after Lucy's birth, Lindsay was being all flirty with him and he immediately turned the conversation to Lucy. Typical pattern for them, Lindsay interested, him not. (But in all fairness, Lindsay's flirting was pretty inappropriate right then, especially in front of Adam.)

But she's been projecting for four years, even though I think it was obvious from the first that Danny was nothing like her. Indeed, I think that's what fascinated her and drew her in. So it's hard to not see the way she treats him as shoddy, because she never takes into account that he has emotions and feelings of his own.

Well, the things she projects onto him are very easy to assume even taking into account Danny's personality - or what Lindsay might know of it. If you've always seemed more into your crush than he is into you (even if he doesn't mind casually flirting), why on earth would you assume his feelings are serious enough to be hurt when you pull away? If you ask for a relationship and he agrees, why wouldn't you assume he wants that relationship, just as you do? The projecting in the Ruben case is more unforgivable, and I do hold her accountable for that, but I think that's what she was doing there: assuming he'd want to be left alone like she would. Maybe assuming he'd come to her if he needed to. Being fair, the one other time Lindsay's ever seen Danny deal with the death of someone he cared about (Aiden), he was swinging between storming off on his own and venting to anyone who would listen (Flack when he came into the lab, the entire team at the bar in the end).

Save for the one comment about looking for a killer at a kindergarten, I don't remember him venting without prompting at all.

Well, the killer-at-a-kindergarten remark was definitely more vent-y and indicative of his feelings than his "he was ten" to Angell, and similar enough to his "I've had better days" remark from RSRD when Lindsay prompted him in the hospital. So it was venting nevertheless. I took it to mean he didn't need prompting - if there's a pattern, why break it?

I would think him trying to be there for her even after she stood him up on a date would quickly indicate otherwise. And again, Danny is a big bundle of emotions. He gets deeply invested in cases--it's not a big leap to assume he's the same way with people he's around all the time.

Yeah, but what says romantic interest in that? (the way he gets deeply invested in things - everyone knows this, because everyone experiences it with Danny.) And I'd think the fervent way he wanted to be there for her after she stood him up would actually send up more red flags in Lindsay's mind. Because we didn't see anything close to approaching that level of passion for her before she blew him off, and I'm guessing Lindsay didn't either. Only getting interested once she starts saying no isn't the best proof that his interest isn't weak or flaky or easy-to-be-shut-off.

Maybe she was being selfish, too? Maybe she was afraid Lucy would be born and he wouldn't want to marry her anymore?

But if that's the case, she would've said yes the first time. Way back in the Triangle, when there was less chance that the "wedding" would've been as rushed as it was, and less chance that he might realize he made a mistake during her month-long absence to Montana.

Have people said that about Lindsay? I admit, I've got no love for the character, but I'd never think that in a million years.

I've seen at least one person say it, because it stuck in my mind when I saw some people agree with them. I think it might've been at Ausiello's site, my first time digging around on there. But I'm not 100% sure.

I don't think they were barely on speaking terms, but regardless, she needed to tell him about the baby for him to show her the conclusion was wrong. He shouldn't have had to chase her down to find out the truth.

Agree on that, but not convinced that Lindsay would've tried hiding the truth. I think she would've told him eventually (had to, in fact, unless she planned to start showing and then lie to him about the father). Why would it matter how early Danny found out about it? It wasn't actively hurting him not to know. If Lindsay was pulling away from him because of it and he was hurt by that, I could see a case being made. But that silence between them in early-Season 5 seemed pretty mutual. And I think they were barely on speaking terms because that silence was actually carried over from "Taxi" and "Hostage" in S4; they were fairly cold with each other there, too.

Agreed, I think he likes them all well enough. But I don't think any of them are in the same league as Danny, Stella and Mac (in that order) for him.

Very true. Although kind of expected, since Flack does have the majority of his scenes with either Stella or Mac, and then Danny, in that order.

People dress up nice for the opera! Sure, it's possible she had a date--likely even. Though we never saw or heard about him.

Oh, I know people dress nice for the opera; I just personally tend to under-dress as much as possible when it comes to family because, you know, they're family. They've likely already seen you at your worst :lol:. But yeah, it does seem like Lindsay's potential date fell into a consistency-black-hole somewhere; like Stella's date from the S1-finale did.

That sounds kind of standard expo to two characters scene to me though. I really don't think it was meant to imply Pino was crushing on her. The CSI shows aren't subtle when it comes to people hitting on/being interested in the characters.

Perhaps; I found it unsubtle, but given that it was Pino's last episode anyway, I guess no one'll ever know for sure.

I think in other roles she's supposed to be playing the sexy girl next door--I guess her brittleness really detracts from that IMO. She's so flinty that it's hard to imagine anyone being drawn to her.

Meh :lol: I don't know how much difference there is between "sexy-girl-next-door" and just regular "sexy-girl", to be honest. I just know that she's usually hooked up with some guy in everything I've seen her in; maybe not overtly, but subtly. The one episode I saw of "The Handler" she was specifically put undercover in the role of an Irish mobster's pretty girlfriend. Even "MI" made it look like they would've headed for a love story with her character if the show hadn't been canceled.

I certainly won't argue that she's never done anything nice for him. She has. But funny how it never involves dealing with him on an emotional level.

Yeah, because he's brushed her off every time she has tried dealing with him on an emotional level. Maybe not on purpose, maybe not because he meant to ("The Deep", "Child's Play") but he has nonetheless. People do start to get the message eventually, once they've been blown off enough times by someone...

Awesome! :lol::lol: I made the limit this time without having to cut that much out

 

[Top41]

Because people get snippy. It happens. Every character in this franchise has gotten snippy more than once. Hell, I get snippy (in RL, hopefully not on the internet ) - I don't plan for it, my temper just sometimes gets short. And I could easily believe Lindsay has a short fuse. For the record, most times people tend to snap back when Lindsay gets snippy with them. Or at least Danny and Stella do. They cave when she tells them why she's being snippy, but then, they're fond of her. That says more about them. And (though I believe they're fond of each other too) Lindsay snaps at Adam often enough, and it's usually not to get him to do something she wants him to do. Or if it is, it doesn't always work.

Well, she's downright bitchy to Adam sometimes. But either way, experience has proved to her that being snippy works, so she continues to use it.

Well, she did put the hostage and herself in more danger - I mean, that decision to go in was more than a little rash, considering Lindsay was made almost as soon as she walked in. That's why I think it was a knee-jerk reaction/decision for her; dead-teenage-girl vs. guns, the girl won out. Lindsay dropped the bag when she was figured out, but I think that was more of an unconscious move than what was planned. If Mosi Ghedi had more of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy, she and the girl easily could've been killed. The bag still would've been dropped, not that it would've mattered.

Wasn't the bag drop exactly part of the plan? That set off the smoke/sound bomb, didn't it? So I don't think she did such a horrible job. And yeah, she was scared, but again, it was a scary situation. If she really was so compromised that she couldn't handle it, she had no business volunteering in the first place.

True...but then, they didn't really start keeping Lindsay away from high-risk situations until Season 3 and afterward. Most likely due to Belknap's pregnancy, yeah. I don't think she was initially supposed to have that fear, but once they had the storyline (long after Lindsay's character was introduced), it did seem like they tried to keep to it. For the most part.

The storyline, even if not totally fleshed out, was introduced in the beginning. Between Belknap's pregnancies (two over four seasons, so half of the time) and the fact that other characters are called on more for action scenes, I just don't see her purposefully being kept out of them. I even recall her wearing a vest in the "DOA for a Day" episode when she went with Danny, Flack and Angell into a potentially dangerous situation--coincidentally, Belknap was not pregnant at the time.

No it doesn't take away from Lindsay's losing it in that room - what does, IMO, is her removing herself from the interrogation. I don't see that as being drama-queen-ish - I doubt the suspect would've cared one whit that she was gone if Danny hadn't gone after her. And her leaving didn't jeopardize the investigation, although Danny's leaving after her might have.

But she didn't just remove herself--she had an outburst. Directed at the suspect. At the very least, she disrupted an interrogation in a major way, and likely tipped the suspect in the direction of asking for a lawyer rather than continuing the questioning.

That killer comment was more soul-bearing than his "His name was Ruben, he was ten" to Angell. It told both Mac and Adam what his problem was, even if they didn't know what to do with it.

Oh, I know what scene you're talking about--Adam wasn't in it. Angell was. And Angell had already opened the flood gates a bit with her comment on the bus.

And yeah, I can believe he made that comment regardless of who was in the room, but if he could do that I find it more than a little strange that he couldn't do something similar at a time when Lindsay was in the room.

So why wasn't Lindsay in the room more often with him? Other than that one effort in "Child's Play," did they even share a scene until 414? Maybe she was perhaps avoiding being around him knowing what a basket case he was?

I count the shift-taking, but more the phone call(s) she gave him before she went to Flack in "AitF". Yeah, she might've just called wanting to know why the hell he wasn't at work, but that she called at all indicates she was concerned. And I'm not seeing how he could've missed that. Why would he expect those calls and not take them to mean she cared? He's not on her payroll. If he doesn't do his job or loses it, it logically doesn't affect her any more than it affected Hawkes that day. It's Mac he should've been expecting a call from, maybe Stella. If he expected Lindsay to care that he might lose his job, I'm not seeing how he would've also assumed she didn't care about him.

When a co-worker of mine misses work, at least one at my level, I'm going to be the one calling them, because I'm going to be the one picking up their slack if I don't. So Danny easily could have assumed it was related to that--though he was in panic mode, so I doubt he gave a lot of thought to who was calling him and why.

Mac came to him to get that information for the case, and Danny filled him in. Danny stopped by his office later for no reason except to talk about how he felt bad for those Tanglewood kids.

Yeah, that's Danny--he reacts emotionally to everything, even something he has little involvement in. He's just pure emotion, 100%.

True, but handing him that card probably told Danny that Mac thought he needed a lawyer because he was guilty. And Danny sounded like he was responding more to that assumption than to the card itself.

The card made him make the leap that Mac was assuming he was guilty which prompted the reaction. It didn't come out of left field.

It was during their fight at the end; Mac said something about Danny closing the case against his orders, and how he shouldn't have bothered with it, and then Danny said his "doesn't matter" line. *puts on "Geekiest CSI:NY Fan" hat* :lol:

I need to rewatch this one!

Lindsay was not attacking him, at least not until he went silent during the pause. She accused him of something he'd just done (just as Mac started off with in C&M); and then aired her point-of-view.

Accusing=attacking, at least in most people's eyes... and especially for someone as sensitive as Danny is.

And then he didn't defend himself - which he usually does when he's sure he's in the right. I totally agree he was irritated with her about being upset over the lunch thing, because it was almost like he was specifically needling her. But that's why I think he really should have finished what he started, especially since he had a good defense (she didn't come to him, either).

No, but by the time she'd finished chewing him out, he probably just felt bad. And really, it's not easy to say to someone, "If you care about me, I thought you would have reached out." That's a tough thing to say, or to tell someone you expect of/were hoping to get from them.

Still have to see that episode again, but wasn't Mac directly laying into him about talking to IAB? Because Danny was wrong for doing that, and given that he'd just found that out himself I'm not surprised he went silent. That's the parallel I'm seeing with RND; he went silent when being accused of something he knew he was guilty of, not for something someone made him think he was guilty of. At the end, Mac still thought Danny handled the shooting wrong, and that idea was what Danny was fighting until he finally gave up.

I'm still not sure what Danny is "guilty" of in RND--grieving on his own? Why does that make him "guilty," especially when Lindsay didn't go to him in the first place? Yes, Danny did make a mistake going to IAB in "On the Job," but I can't really find a parallel in RND, unless it was sleeping with Rikki, which Lindsay didn't accuse him of or seem to know about in the first place.

Pulling a random example, "My Name is Mac Taylor" (and I think they had to know of Anna Belknap's pregnancy at least then) - toward the beginning they were in the shot processing a scene alone together, and neither of them spoke or even looked at each other until Hawkes came up. And then they spoke to him, not to each other. If Lindsay was already edgy because she knew she was pregnant, I could get that, but what's Danny's excuse? I think the silence between them was on purpose, even after producers knew they were writing in the pregnancy. Given how huge a shift that pregnancy is supposed to be from S4, why not at least throw a line into an earlier episode indicating they were sleeping together?

Because I think the initial plan was to move them away from each other. Episodes 1-4 of season five were shot before the hiatus... before Belknap got pregnant again. So that leaves 5-8, and honestly, I don't know why there were no hints leading up to it, given what Danny said in "The Box." Had he not said, "We got back together," I'd absolutely believe what happened in PF was a one-time thing. But he did, and again, he's a thirty-something year-old man with plenty of dating experience. This isn't Twilight, lol. He's not going to think he's "back together" with someone he's not sleeping with regularly. So maybe they were just more subtle at work, since they'd dragged their drama into the lab so much the first time around?

Well, he doesn't keep them around to genuinely be interested in them, or even to engage with them on an emotional level, really.

Is it that, or does he perhaps think they don't want to deal with him on an emotional level? That they don't want to take on all that baggage and drama? Because if so, Lindsay sure proved him right.

With Lindsay, again: if he were trying to please her out of an interest in what she wanted, rather than pleasing her in the way he thinks she wants to be pleased so she'll stick around, I think that relationship would actually be a little healthier. Or at least, that there'd be less of the "illusions" and the mistrust and the not-talking. She's the one who runs, but it's only her who's ever indicated she wants to work out the kinks in their relationship.

Really? Or does she just criticize? I don't think either of them really heard the other in PF--he was just trying to placate her, and she was just trying to retroactively get across the idea that, no, she wasn't so terrible for basically adding to Danny's guilt and pain.

I'm not sure...I think the puzzle analogy is a good one, although I think if it were just about wanting to fix him, she wouldn't let him get away with so much (like skipping shifts or going on strike). She also might've pushed a little more when he was grieving over Ruben, if only to find out why he was acting the way he did. I think it might be a mix; of both caring about him a lot and being really drawn to him. It's weird, I can't pinpoint what it was that made her say yes to that wedding and that marriage, since neither really benefit her and she knows it. But it had to have been strong. I don't think plain desire is that strong.

I disagree completely--desire can make people crazy. People ruin themselves for desire, and not just in literature. It makes people weak, foolish, makes them make mistakes. Without any other logical explanation, I kind of fall back on desire as her motivator.

Then he could have said it while they were in the middle of doing whatever they did that night in PF - she could hardly run then. My point is that there were fifteen episodes in total between RND and "The Box", and Lindsay came to him during at least one of them. I can't believe that if he'd had something really urgent to say to her about their relationship, he wouldn't have dropped more of a hint than "we should talk" in all that time. And we know that Danny doesn't let go of things that easily - meaning that if he had something to say back in RND, he still has to say it to this day. I can't see him hanging onto it that long without saying it. If nothing else, it would've started weighing on his mind too much to keep silent.

I think he figured out that she didn't want to hear what he had to say and he did let it go. He seemed really defeated in PF, totally beaten down and just complacent. I think the loss of Ruben took a lot out of him--it was a horrible, irrevocable mistake that he couldn't fix no matter what he did. And I don't think he could stand feeling guilty for something else on top of that. Better to just give her what he thought she wanted than to keep fighting to give an explanation she clearly didn't want to hear.

I actually think she might've been in the process of moving on after PF until she found out she was pregnant. "It wasn't the same" even before the Season 5 silent-spell, because they were a little icy with each other in "Taxi and Hostage". He might've given her enough to be together for that one night in PF, but it didn't seem like she was getting much more after that. Which means she couldn't have gotten exactly what she wanted that night in PF, either.

I didn't see any indications of her moving on. In "Taxi," she lamented to Hawkes that she hadn't heard "Montana," Danny's nickname for her in ages. You said you caught a longing look in "Hostage." She wasn't moving on.

I don't agree on this...I think Danny got the hint that Flack wasn't leaving, but I don't believe they ever would've come to blows or physical aggression over it, and I don't think Danny did either. Not just because he knows Flack, but doesn't Danny get really defensive when he's confronted with aggression of any kind?

Oh, I don't think Flack would hit Danny, ever, but I think he absolutely would have physically prevented him from leaving if Danny had fought him over giving up those numbers. It was more the "you're going to do what I say" aggression than the "I'll kick your ass if you don't do what I say" type. Flack would never hurt Danny--Danny knows this. But would Flack prevent him from riding off on his bike? Absolutely. Danny knows that, too.

 

[Top41]

LOL, same. Flack's an amazing guy for putting up with it! But then, that's why I think Danny called him. Mac and Aiden love(d) him, but I can't see them having tolerated the walking-out - not because it was such a horrible thing to do, just that I don't see either of them putting up with that sort of behaviour - and I think Danny knew that.

I think Danny is aware on some level just how much Flack will/would do for him, which is why Danny trusts Flack so much. He can push with Flack, and Flack isn't going anywhere.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but a more mature reaction to correct that wrong .. does make a right, as far as I'm concerned. Mac lost it, he should have left the investigation. Also, why is it self-centered and unprofessional when Lindsay gets riled during an investigation about something unrelated to that investigation - but when Stella does it ("Open and Shut"), not so much? I don't think either of them were being self-centered, for the record.

In Stella's case it was personal--there was a direct correlation to what she went through. Doesn't excuse it completely, but it's a lot easier to swallow than Lindsay using what happened to Stella in "All Access" as an excuse to go all drama queen and make a scene.

Or she'd been there most of the day, and was still there when they showed her the tape. And additionally, if Danny-from-Child's-Play (and most other victims' families on these shows) is any example, don't people tend to get more worked up and upset after they've had a chance to think about what happened? There was no way to reasonably predict the mom would be any less wired than she was the first time Danny interviewed her.

More upset, but less shocked--and less likely to act out and slap a police officer.

To me, she sounded reluctantly resigned in OE with her "It's the job" line, especially since she seemed like she wanted to be anywhere else but where she was during that last scene with the mother. Either way, she realized she was wrong to blow off her duties, and did her job the next time around.

See, I heard this tone in her voice, this "the job is hard sometimes, but I am wonderful because I do it!" It was so self-indulgent, and "look at how awesome I am... for doing my job!" Yuck.

In AA, she left the room directly after she blew up. I see that as her trying to correct the mistake. I saw the CSI Vegas episode last night where Warrick's mentor's daughter was killed, and he had to be dragged from an interrogation by Grissom after he lost it - I like Warrick, but I still really have to stand by my admiration that Lindsay removed herself.

Only after causing a scene. Had she not caused the scene, I might have more respect for her.

They stick out as mistakes to me, and to you and to others - but to many people, they don't. Enough people that I can't think the producers weren't trying for that effect. In whole parts of the fandom, I've run into very very few people who think Lindsay was at all in the wrong during the RND mess, for example, and even people who think it was Stella to blame in Silent Night. Whereas most everyone I've talked to agree that Lindsay's blowing up at the suspect in "All Access" or shoving her job onto Danny in "Hex" were definite Lindsay-mess-up scenes.

Stella is to blame for wanting Lindsay to do her job in "Silent Night." I can see the split in RND, though really, to me the issue was about Danny sleeping with someone else... and Lindsay never brought that up (or seemed to know about it) and so many people (Peter Lenkov, Carmine) have gone on record saying Danny didn't cheat that it's hard for me to sympathize with her in that scene. I think a lot of people feel Danny did cheat on her, which I get to some extent. But if you take that element out of it, she's just callous for screaming at a guy who is grieving. Seriously, put that situation into real life--who wouldn't come off looking awful for screaming at someone who has just lost someone they care about?

Well, what did he do when that kid died? Grieve, obviously, as expected, but also let himself go, risked his job, pushed people away, became borderline self-destructive...I mean, I personally didn't expect Danny to actually walk when he found out about his kid, but even I was half-expecting him to initially push Lindsay away a bit, have a little more of an emotional dilemma. If he was feeling so responsible over Ruben's death, he might not think he could take care of a kid of his own, even that he was deserving of a kid of his own; or maybe he didn't want to be around children anymore. There was really no way to completely predict how Danny was going to act in that situation, even setting aside the mess that was their "relationship". I've seen that enough people around the internet were predicting completely different responses. That's actually why I think "The Box" was so wholly devoted to Danny's response. Given the way things left off in S4, it was his response that was the biggest question mark to most viewers. Why would it not have also been a question mark to Lindsay?

Presumably she knows him better than we do. But still... pregnancy is different, way different, than what he went through with Ruben. And Danny's actions towards Rikki show he wasn't shirking responsibility there. He was letting his own life go, but he did everything he could--to the point of sleeping with her to try to make her feel better--to try to make amends. Danny's many things, but an irresponsible flake is not one of them. And again--she should have just given him the info and seen what happened.

I don't know, from what I've seen, a PF-hookup was taken pretty skeptically even among DL fans. They knew before S5 started airing that they were writing in Anna Belknap's pregnancy, why wouldn't there at least be three words exchanged between Lindsay and Danny before "The Box"? Three words would barely have to be added to a script, they could just throw in something to indicate they were sleeping together. D and L talked more during their actual breakup (LWFM to PF) than they did after PF.

Well, they're the most unrealistic, unevenly written couple on television. Their romance has lacked both chemistry and logic, so really it's no surprise so much has come out of left field. That's been going on since season two/three, when her obvious pursuit of/interest in him turned into her standing him up and him being broken-hearted about it.

It could have - I'm sure he did feel bad that she'd gotten hurt. But coming off the back of a "love confession" like the one Lindsay had just spilled, it seemed the worst way to word things if they'd intended us to not see it as a breakup line. Why not at least say "I'm sorry I hurt you" or "I'm sorry you're angry", specify what he's sorry about? As a viewer, I took it into context - the sleeping with Rikki, the disinterest in Season 4, the even more pointed disinterest and shut-out after Child's Play...I mean, he doesn't feel the same way about Lindsay, why would he not be telling her so when the chance actually comes up? Even if she didn't know about Rikki (still think it's a big if, but maybe), the context was still thick enough for Lindsay to reasonably guess what "I'm sorry, we should talk" would mean after she'd told him she loves him. And I'm not seeing how their later interactions until PF should have convinced her she was wrong, especially if we consider there were a couple of months between RND and PF.

He's a guy, he worded it badly. :lol: After our discussions, I think it's possible that you're right, that he was going to try to let her down gently, but I do trip up on the invitation to watch "Jaws" in the next episode. Was that really just him trying to get things back on track as friends, or was he hoping to pave the way for getting back together?

She bails, she doesn't lie. If she directly told him she wasn't going anywhere, it's as good as telling him she'd make sure he had legal rights to the child.

No way. I don't care how honest she is--and bailing doesn't do anything to help her credibility--she could change her mind at any minute. And she has in the past. I totally get his fears--a normal guy would be nervous, let alone a guy as insecure and needy as Danny.

And he never directly asked for legal rights to the child. She directly answered the question he did seem to be asking her. If he'd asked for it, I'm sure she would've said "I'll give you legal rights to this child", worded like that or similar to that.

No, but it was pretty clear what his fear was: losing that child.

(He didn't say "I love you" in the courthouse, just implied it using almost every Harlequin-cliche there is.)

It really felt like he was talking around that. Even the one time he said it--"I do love you"--felt like he was trying to convince himself as much as he was her.

I think with Lindsay, it's that feeling of wanting to believe something so badly that you make it true for yourself, even as you know the real truth on that harsh, basic level in your mind. I think she knows he doesn't love her, on that harsh basic level. Fact is, the basic level is always the little voice that keeps intruding on your fantasy at the back of your mind. For Lindsay, it often seems like that voice is loud enough to stop her from going too deep into the fantasy (period after PF, the Triangle), and then sometimes it doesn't seem loud enough (PF itself, Green Piece).

I think by marrying him, she got to buy into the fantasy. He was hers, legally. Fresh off the pregnancy announcement, she knew exactly why he was proposing and couldn't buy into the fantasy, but eight episodes later, she could, especially after he's read comic books to her belly.

Good question. Although I doubt it because even in GfD after Lucy's birth, Lindsay was being all flirty with him and he immediately turned the conversation to Lucy. Typical pattern for them, Lindsay interested, him not. (But in all fairness, Lindsay's flirting was pretty inappropriate right then, especially in front of Adam.)

LOL, that was so icky. Did he respond at all? I thought he said something like, "That's my girl" or something to that effect. But yeah, I remember him turning quickly to Lucy.

Well, the things she projects onto him are very easy to assume even taking into account Danny's personality - or what Lindsay might know of it. If you've always seemed more into your crush than he is into you (even if he doesn't mind casually flirting), why on earth would you assume his feelings are serious enough to be hurt when you pull away? If you ask for a relationship and he agrees, why wouldn't you assume he wants that relationship, just as you do? The projecting in the Ruben case is more unforgivable, and I do hold her accountable for that, but I think that's what she was doing there: assuming he'd want to be left alone like she would. Maybe assuming he'd come to her if he needed to. Being fair, the one other time Lindsay's ever seen Danny deal with the death of someone he cared about (Aiden), he was swinging between storming off on his own and venting to anyone who would listen (Flack when he came into the lab, the entire team at the bar in the end).

But the problem is, she never bothered to listen or pay attention to his reactions. After he chased her down for the second explanation about standing him up, she should have realized it meant something to him, but she really didn't seem to care. With Aiden, it was obvious Danny fell apart--even Lindsay noticed, and brought it up with Stella in the form of digging for info about their relationship. And Danny was obviously a wreck after Ruben. I just don't think she cares all that much about his emotional well being, or needs.

Well, the killer-at-a-kindergarten remark was definitely more vent-y and indicative of his feelings than his "he was ten" to Angell, and similar enough to his "I've had better days" remark from RSRD when Lindsay prompted him in the hospital. So it was venting nevertheless. I took it to mean he didn't need prompting - if there's a pattern, why break it?

That was one comment though--and compared to all the prompting he's needed otherwise, feels not all that significant.

Yeah, but what says romantic interest in that? (the way he gets deeply invested in things - everyone knows this, because everyone experiences it with Danny.) And I'd think the fervent way he wanted to be there for her after she stood him up would actually send up more red flags in Lindsay's mind. Because we didn't see anything close to approaching that level of passion for her before she blew him off, and I'm guessing Lindsay didn't either. Only getting interested once she starts saying no isn't the best proof that his interest isn't weak or flaky or easy-to-be-shut-off.

More unhealthy and needy and damaged, but yeah, I agree... being a doormat doesn't scream ideal boyfriend to anyone but someone looking to take advantage of that.

But if that's the case, she would've said yes the first time. Way back in the Triangle, when there was less chance that the "wedding" would've been as rushed as it was, and less chance that he might realize he made a mistake during her month-long absence to Montana.

No woman with an ounce of self-respect is going to say yes to a proposal that begins with a question about mental illness in her family. She knew it was about the baby--and just the baby then.

I've seen at least one person say it, because it stuck in my mind when I saw some people agree with them. I think it might've been at Ausiello's site, my first time digging around on there. But I'm not 100% sure.

Wow, that's out there! I just can't see that at all.

Perhaps; I found it unsubtle, but given that it was Pino's last episode anyway, I guess no one'll ever know for sure.

I don't know--it certainly never registered with me. But like you said... we'll probably never know one way or another.

Meh :lol: I don't know how much difference there is between "sexy-girl-next-door" and just regular "sexy-girl", to be honest. I just know that she's usually hooked up with some guy in everything I've seen her in; maybe not overtly, but subtly. The one episode I saw of "The Handler" she was specifically put undercover in the role of an Irish mobster's pretty girlfriend. Even "MI" made it look like they would've headed for a love story with her character if the show hadn't been canceled.

Maybe it's mostly Lindsay then--there's just none of that sex appeal to her, which is why it's so hard to understand why someone who is as sexual--though often unconsciously so--as Danny would be drawn to her.

Yeah, because he's brushed her off every time she has tried dealing with him on an emotional level. Maybe not on purpose, maybe not because he meant to ("The Deep", "Child's Play") but he has nonetheless. People do start to get the message eventually, once they've been blown off enough times by someone...

Twice? After all the times he reached out to her, and tried to support her and was there for her? One time he's bashful, the other distressed... I think if her feelings run as deep as she claims, she could have tried more than twice.

Awesome! :lol::lol: I made the limit this time without having to cut that much out [/QUOTE]

 

[Maya316]

Well, she's downright bitchy to Adam sometimes. But either way, experience has proved to her that being snippy works, so she continues to use it.

Except for at a time it could've worked just as well (with Mac). Additionally, they're all snippy. Why is it only Lindsay who has an ulterior motive when she's being snippy?

Wasn't the bag drop exactly part of the plan? That set off the smoke/sound bomb, didn't it? So I don't think she did such a horrible job. And yeah, she was scared, but again, it was a scary situation. If she really was so compromised that she couldn't handle it, she had no business volunteering in the first place.

The plan was to get the hostage out safely - the bag-drop, I think, was to be used as an element of surprise in case that didn't become so easy to do. Maybe to keep the bad guys inside the room. And I agree, she had no business volunteering in the first place. It was a rash thing to do.

The storyline, even if not totally fleshed out, was introduced in the beginning. Between Belknap's pregnancies (two over four seasons, so half of the time) and the fact that other characters are called on more for action scenes, I just don't see her purposefully being kept out of them. I even recall her wearing a vest in the "DOA for a Day" episode when she went with Danny, Flack and Angell into a potentially dangerous situation--coincidentally, Belknap was not pregnant at the time.

She had a bloody secret in the beginning; whether a shooting was part of that secret, that early, is more iffy...although I'm not sure what they had planned that early. No, I don't think she's always kept out of shooting scenes and yeah I agree it mostly has to do with other action-characters and Belknap's pregnancies. But I do think the producers/writers try to adhere to that part of her past whenever something else doesn't take precedent (for example with that DOA for a Day example: creepy-double-date, anyone?).

But she didn't just remove herself--she had an outburst. Directed at the suspect. At the very least, she disrupted an interrogation in a major way, and likely tipped the suspect in the direction of asking for a lawyer rather than continuing the questioning.

Well, when CSIs blow up during an interrogation it usually is at the suspect, not at each other. Lindsay isn't the first, and unlike others was able to remove herself from the room rather than having to be dragged out by a colleague. I totally agree the outburst was a mistake; that's why I figure leaving was the best attempt to correct that mistake. Leaving (assuming the interrogation continues after she left, as it could easily have done) prevents the suspect from being more uncomfortable with the questioning - the detective with the seeming-vendetta against them is gone.

Oh, I know what scene you're talking about--Adam wasn't in it. Angell was. And Angell had already opened the flood gates a bit with her comment on the bus.

'Kay, I have to rewatch that :lol: - I could've sworn Adam had just dropped off lab results to Mac and Danny, then hung around while they discussed them. I know Angell was in the scene with Mac and Danny after that, at the kindergarten, but Danny didn't make the comment at the kindergarten...

So why wasn't Lindsay in the room more often with him? Other than that one effort in "Child's Play," did they even share a scene until 414? Maybe she was perhaps avoiding being around him knowing what a basket case he was?

So, so true about them not sharing a scene till 414; I think one of them was avoiding the other. But given her phone calls in "AitF" and the fact that the very next time we saw them together after "Child's Play", Lindsay was sullen despite Danny being all happy...tells me it wasn't her doing the avoiding. Didn't seem like she was that happy about being avoided, either.

When a co-worker of mine misses work, at least one at my level, I'm going to be the one calling them, because I'm going to be the one picking up their slack if I don't. So Danny easily could have assumed it was related to that--though he was in panic mode, so I doubt he gave a lot of thought to who was calling him and why.

True about the slack-pick-up, but I think in the "AitF" case that would only work if Lindsay was going to be working at the same time Danny would be. They indicated that she was just getting off a shift of her own (I'm assuming so, because I don't see how she could work her own shift and cover someone else's at the same time). If we're going by what Danny could have been expecting, she should've been at home, not calling him - maybe called later that day or at the start of her next shift, once she'd discovered he'd skipped a shift. Hawkes should've been the coworker Danny was expecting a call from; although I agree he probably was in panic mode.

The card made him make the leap that Mac was assuming he was guilty which prompted the reaction. It didn't come out of left field.

Yes exactly, but the moment Danny made that leap, Mac knew about it. And Mac (I need to watch this episode to be perfectly sure, but I think so) knew that Danny's problem was with his thinking Danny was guilty. It was all right there in the open, there wasn't much of a "you're shutting me out and I don't know why" factor.

Accusing=attacking, at least in most people's eyes... and especially for someone as sensitive as Danny is.

Then why didn't this sensitivity make an appearance when Mac accused/attacked him in C&M? And I'm not sure accusing automatically means "attacking" - if someone does something and they get called out for it, is the person calling them out "attacking" them?

No, but by the time she'd finished chewing him out, he probably just felt bad. And really, it's not easy to say to someone, "If you care about me, I thought you would have reached out." That's a tough thing to say, or to tell someone you expect of/were hoping to get from them.

No, but there are "meaner" ways to say that exact same thing that might give you the appearance of a shield - like maybe the way Lindsay's "my mistake for thinking you might need someone to lean on" covered her own wish that he'd leaned on her? When she paused after her "do it all on your own" comment, he so should've said something like "Well, where the hell were you?" or even "Maybe if you'd been around"...it's always tough to tell anyone something that'll leave you vulnerable, and especially during a fight - that's why people use shields, make hostile remarks that cover sincere vulnerability. Lindsay did it, Danny could've done the same; as he's done before in fights with other people. It would've been really easy if Danny aimed his "wish you'd reach out" as a hostile shot in the fight.

I'm still not sure what Danny is "guilty" of in RND--grieving on his own? Why does that make him "guilty," especially when Lindsay didn't go to him in the first place? Yes, Danny did make a mistake going to IAB in "On the Job," but I can't really find a parallel in RND, unless it was sleeping with Rikki, which Lindsay didn't accuse him of or seem to know about in the first place.

She did tell him not to mistake her anger for "jealousy" - we might disagree, but I think Danny assumed she knew, and realized it right then. He was grieving on his own - I think he should've said something about how she wasn't there in the first place right then, but he did seem to shut her (and to be fair, others) out, and I think he knew it on some level. And he was reducing her to a shallow, clingy girlfriend with the remarks about her birthday and lunch. Reducing her because there was a time when he gave her more credit than that. Again, we totally disagree on the degree to which Danny might be guilty of those things and whether he might be justified in being guilty (I know you think Lindsay deserved the birthday-and-lunch remark at least, although I can't agree). But she wasn't pulling accusations out of thin air, he did those things as surely as he went to IAB. And that's personally why I think he went silent, like he did over the IAB thing with Mac; he knew she was right.

Because I think the initial plan was to move them away from each other. Episodes 1-4 of season five were shot before the hiatus... before Belknap got pregnant again. So that leaves 5-8, and honestly, I don't know why there were no hints leading up to it, given what Danny said in "The Box." Had he not said, "We got back together," I'd absolutely believe what happened in PF was a one-time thing. But he did, and again, he's a thirty-something year-old man with plenty of dating experience. This isn't Twilight, lol. He's not going to think he's "back together" with someone he's not sleeping with regularly. So maybe they were just more subtle at work, since they'd dragged their drama into the lab so much the first time around?

Maybe it's possible that PF was what Danny was referring to when he said they got back together - "back together" for the one night? Because I'd definitely get trying to be more subtle at work if it were just that, but they were subtle at work in PF, and even during the last scenes of LWFM when they were in scenes together. Without that morgue conversation in PF, I don't think anyone at the lab could've outed them as a couple. In Season 2 they were entirely professional in scenes together (ie, "Super Men", except for the "Marry me" thing). Subtle and cordial at work; the producers have done it before with these two and it worked fine. All they'd've had to do was even throw in a "hi" to each other - and heck, they managed that with Flack and Lindsay in "Sex, Lies, and Silicone". What's with subtle and downright icy? (Not looking at, not speaking, etc)

Is it that, or does he perhaps think they don't want to deal with him on an emotional level? That they don't want to take on all that baggage and drama? Because if so, Lindsay sure proved him right.

He pointedly never gave her the chance to prove him right or wrong; every time she tried to deal with his emotions (directly or indirectly) she was brushed aside, and he never once came to her hoping/asking for that support. I think it's very likely he does the same with his other girlfriends; assumes they won't want to deal emotionally with him and heads them off before they get a chance to prove a thing to him. But that doesn't really explain why he loses interest in them and their lives after they've become his girlfriend...

Really? Or does she just criticize? I don't think either of them really heard the other in PF--he was just trying to placate her, and she was just trying to retroactively get across the idea that, no, she wasn't so terrible for basically adding to Danny's guilt and pain.

That's not what she was doing in PF (although I agree neither of them really heard each other) - I think Danny would've actually had to accuse her of something before she could get defensive or excuse-making.But anyway, I was also referring a little to "The Triangle": Lindsay explaining that they should wait and even why they should wait, Danny nods like he heard her and then presses again a couple of months later.

I disagree completely--desire can make people crazy. People ruin themselves for desire, and not just in literature. It makes people weak, foolish, makes them make mistakes. Without any other logical explanation, I kind of fall back on desire as her motivator.

I don't know, in the literature I've read (and movies I've seen) desire tends to be more selfish than anything. People ruin the person they're desiring, out of desire - rather than themselves (like for example, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream). I've read and seen tons of things where love/desire/whatever-it-is gets self-destructive, but in those books its never solely desire that people are acting on. There's just not enough in that wedding or this marriage for Lindsay, compared to Danny, and she knew that going in. Additionally, she has a lot to lose when Danny decides he doesn't want/need her anymore, whereas it doesn't seem like she's about to come to an epiphany of her own like that anytime soon (deciding she doesn't want Danny, I mean). So I call it self-destructive.

I think he figured out that she didn't want to hear what he had to say and he did let it go. He seemed really defeated in PF, totally beaten down and just complacent. I think the loss of Ruben took a lot out of him--it was a horrible, irrevocable mistake that he couldn't fix no matter what he did. And I don't think he could stand feeling guilty for something else on top of that. Better to just give her what he thought she wanted than to keep fighting to give an explanation she clearly didn't want to hear.

Even when she indicated she wanted to hear it during the phone call? (It did seem like when she says "I tried to give you your space", that could've been a perfect opening to tell her it wasn't his space he needed.) I could see how he might've been worried she'd hang up if they got into it right then, but he already kind of knew she wanted to know what she'd done wrong by the time she reached his place in PF. He could have said something then.

I didn't see any indications of her moving on. In "Taxi," she lamented to Hawkes that she hadn't heard "Montana," Danny's nickname for her in ages. You said you caught a longing look in "Hostage." She wasn't moving on.

In "Taxi", she said she kind of missed the "Montana" nickname after Hawkes apologized for using it, and yeah there was the longing look in "Hostage"; but you know, in terms of getting over someone that's not that bad. It's natural to miss someone you've just broken up with, but she certainly seemed more functional than she was after the run-in with Danny in "LWFM", and it definitely seemed like she'd moved on in the beginning of Season 5.

Oh, I don't think Flack would hit Danny, ever, but I think he absolutely would have physically prevented him from leaving if Danny had fought him over giving up those numbers. It was more the "you're going to do what I say" aggression than the "I'll kick your ass if you don't do what I say" type. Flack would never hurt Danny--Danny knows this. But would Flack prevent him from riding off on his bike? Absolutely. Danny knows that, too.

Yeah, but that's basically "I'm opposing you" aggression, which Danny typcally doesn't respond well to (like, Mac's gotten "in your face" aggressive with him too, and it just makes Danny more defensive). I think Flack was just radiating that he wasn't going to leave, and it never crossed Danny's mind to try running from him. There didn't seem to be even an unconscious level of force involved with making Danny talk in that scene.

 

[Maya316]

In Stella's case it was personal--there was a direct correlation to what she went through. Doesn't excuse it completely, but it's a lot easier to swallow than Lindsay using what happened to Stella in "All Access" as an excuse to go all drama queen and make a scene.

I can't see that allowing concern over a friend to interfere with an unrelated investigation, is less acceptable than allowing concern over yourself to interfere with that investigation. To me they're both acceptable and perfectly understandable.

See, I heard this tone in her voice, this "the job is hard sometimes, but I am wonderful because I do it!" It was so self-indulgent, and "look at how awesome I am... for doing my job!" Yuck.

I think it would've sounded a bit more upbeat if she really thought she was awesome for doing what she had to do. And she might've looked less like she wanted to run screaming from the room when she was alone with the mother.

Only after causing a scene. Had she not caused the scene, I might have more respect for her.

Well, blowing up is causing a scene, if you ask me - if someone loses it in an interrogation, chances are the only other two/three/four people in the room are going to notice and stare, even after they've left the room.

Stella is to blame for wanting Lindsay to do her job in "Silent Night." I can see the split in RND, though really, to me the issue was about Danny sleeping with someone else... and Lindsay never brought that up (or seemed to know about it) and so many people (Peter Lenkov, Carmine) have gone on record saying Danny didn't cheat that it's hard for me to sympathize with her in that scene. I think a lot of people feel Danny did cheat on her, which I get to some extent. But if you take that element out of it, she's just callous for screaming at a guy who is grieving. Seriously, put that situation into real life--who wouldn't come off looking awful for screaming at someone who has just lost someone they care about?

On Stella, I've seen the response enough ("Lindsay was going through something horrible, Stella was being so meeeaan!11!"); and with the RND thing, much the same. Both are cases, imo, of fan-apologizing - fans of the character, on knowing the reasons for their fave character's less-than-stellar moment, immediately forgive them (or find them justified) and thus turn on the character(s) in the fight. It happens to every fan of every thing, I think, so it doesn't bother me a lot, but I think that's the response the writers/producers were kind of hoping for, and basing those Lindsay-mistakes on. I mean, with RND; in no other situation would Lindsay ever come out looking good for yelling at Danny. But they'd already shown Danny "cheating". I think at that point, Lindsay could've slapped Danny and still been defended to the death :lol:. I can't think things weren't set up that way on purpose. Why have Lindsay yell in the same episode Danny slept with Rikki, if it wasn't designed to make people overlook her mistake?

Presumably she knows him better than we do. But still... pregnancy is different, way different, than what he went through with Ruben. And Danny's actions towards Rikki show he wasn't shirking responsibility there. He was letting his own life go, but he did everything he could--to the point of sleeping with her to try to make her feel better--to try to make amends. Danny's many things, but an irresponsible flake is not one of them. And again--she should have just given him the info and seen what happened.

I'm iffy on how well Lindsay knows Danny's emotional responses, but given how well things went when she tried to predict what he'd want during the Ruben crisis (cue sarcasm ), I could see how she'd feel clueless a second time around. Pregnancy is not the same as what happened with Ruben, but what happened with Ruben could very easily have factored into how well Danny responded to the pregnancy, might have influenced that response just like the experience with Ruben influenced other parts of his life during that whole storyline. It doesn't have much to do with irresponsibility, imo; it could've been as simple as fearing that the same thing that happened to Ruben would've happened to his kid. There are a ton of factors for why Danny might've backed away, Lindsay and their relationship being only one of them. Since that's what I think Lindsay knew better than us fans do, yeah, I think his response would've been a question mark to her.

She did give him the info and sat back to see what happened, though he had to chase her down to get that info. It wasn't hurting him to not know beforehand. If she had to take extra time to make sure she was prepared for whatever his response would be (and that did seem to be what she was still in the process of doing, given how quickly she tried to leave after giving him the ultrasound pic), I don't see the problem.

Well, they're the most unrealistic, unevenly written couple on television. Their romance has lacked both chemistry and logic, so really it's no surprise so much has come out of left field. That's been going on since season two/three, when her obvious pursuit of/interest in him turned into her standing him up and him being broken-hearted about it.

And I'm totally not disagreeing, but even in S3 they eventually gave an explanation for Lindsay's about-face (even if we didn't so much get one on Danny's sudden interest); in S4 we were given some indication that something might be going on behind-the-scenes, even if we only discovered they were "officially" together like, during the episode they split up. And this isn't even the "will-they-won't-they" dance that tons of viewers don't give a rat's behind about, it's a pregnancy/baby, which every viewer is going to notice. The only explanation we got was one night in PF and weeks of silence afterward, even though Lindsay's been pregnant and had Lucy already. If the producers wanted us to have a different impression beyond "icy-silence" of what went on between Lindsay and Danny during those weeks, they probably would've worked in a few moments.

He's a guy, he worded it badly. :lol: After our discussions, I think it's possible that you're right, that he was going to try to let her down gently, but I do trip up on the invitation to watch "Jaws" in the next episode. Was that really just him trying to get things back on track as friends, or was he hoping to pave the way for getting back together?

So true about Danny, although I'm blaming the writers if they'd meant it to imply something other than what I (and apparently Lindsay) took it as :shifty:. I'm even more confused about the Jaws thing now because I have no idea how long after RND that offer was. But I'm going with the friends approach, because he didn't seem that interested in getting back together even in LWFM. After she left he looked more bored in an "oh well" way, rather than actually disappointed.

No way. I don't care how honest she is--and bailing doesn't do anything to help her credibility--she could change her mind at any minute. And she has in the past.

Yeah, when it's looked like he doesn't want her there anyway. (And I do think a normal guy who'd been responding to her that way would take that into account. Even in S2/early-S3.) He wanted her to stick around this time, if only for the baby. I can't see her bailing then.

No, but it was pretty clear what his fear was: losing that child.

And I think "I'm not going anywhere" answered that fear pretty directly; in the most direct way possible, really, aside from saying "the child's not going anywhere." (Which she couldn't really promise anyway - what if she'd had a miscarriage or something?)

I think by marrying him, she got to buy into the fantasy. He was hers, legally. Fresh off the pregnancy announcement, she knew exactly why he was proposing and couldn't buy into the fantasy, but eight episodes later, she could, especially after he's read comic books to her belly.

He was hers, legally, as he would've been after "The Triangle" had she said yes. Aside from that, things were basically the same back then as they were in "Green Piece". Eight episodes of him reacting solely to her belly, I'm not seeing how she would've assumed he was proposing for any different reason.

But the problem is, she never bothered to listen or pay attention to his reactions. After he chased her down for the second explanation about standing him up, she should have realized it meant something to him, but she really didn't seem to care. With Aiden, it was obvious Danny fell apart--even Lindsay noticed, and brought it up with Stella in the form of digging for info about their relationship. And Danny was obviously a wreck after Ruben. I just don't think she cares all that much about his emotional well being, or needs.

I don't think the second demand for an explanation would've erased a year's worth of reactionary (at best) interest on Danny's part. She did notice he was hurt after that second explanation, but seemed to assume he'd get over it. And to be fair, all of his reactions after that episode did seem to indicate he'd gotten over it fairly well. At least until "Sleight".

I also don't think the things she's done on the show support the idea that she doesn't care about his emotional well-being. Case in point, the wedding we keep talking about - it benefited him way more than it did her, and I think she had to know that going into it.

That was one comment though--and compared to all the prompting he's needed otherwise, feels not all that significant.

He needed prompting twice (with regards to Ruben - needed none at all when it came to Aiden). I can't see the comment to Angell being vent-y unless I also see the killer-at-a-kindergarten one being a vent, because the latter one was far more indicative of his feelings over Ruben's death.

More unhealthy and needy and damaged, but yeah, I agree... being a doormat doesn't scream ideal boyfriend to anyone but someone looking to take advantage of that.

And before they hit boyfriend/girlfriend stage, it certainly wouldn't scream that he was interested in you seriously.

No woman with an ounce of self-respect is going to say yes to a proposal that begins with a question about mental illness in her family. She knew it was about the baby--and just the baby then.

But she would've had him either way, had she said yes. Additionally, didn't even Anna Belknap say the way Danny was asking was cute enough she felt sorry for saying no? It was a cute enough proposal, guys get nervous when they do it even if they've planned it, and she knew just as well in "Green Piece" as she did in "The Triangle" that it was all about the baby.

Wow, that's out there! I just can't see that at all.

It's a frighteningly-common response in other fandoms I've been in (then again, Harry Potter fandom used to get ugly on almost a daily basis :lol, enough so that I was actually worried about seeing more of the same thing I saw on Ausiello when "The Box" was about to air. Until we heard the dialogue between Lindsay/Danny, of course.

Maybe it's mostly Lindsay then--there's just none of that sex appeal to her, which is why it's so hard to understand why someone who is as sexual--though often unconsciously so--as Danny would be drawn to her.

Definitely true, although I wonder how much of that has to do with who Lindsay's dating, and whether that would change if she were dating someone else, someone she didn't work with/see all the time. She chose the easy option, going after the guy she spends half her life sitting across an office from. He's likely seen her in everything from dumpster-diving wear to autopsy-wear to you-name it. Doesn't really encourage the need to go all-out - I think the most she's ever done for Danny as far as that is keeping her curls in Season 2 because Danny responded well to them in "Risk".

Twice? After all the times he reached out to her, and tried to support her and was there for her? One time he's bashful, the other distressed... I think if her feelings run as deep as she claims, she could have tried more than twice.

I could see the problem with only two examples, if we'd seen him reciprocate a desire to engage on an emotional level even once after they started dating (preferably while they were dating, because I don't know how much it counts to want to invest just because you've broken up with your girlfriend and apparently. As it is, I saw no interest from him, and two attempts from Lindsay being brushed off does start to seem like a lot.

 

[Top41]

OK, I *think* I finally have some time to jump back in here.

Except for at a time it could've worked just as well (with Mac). Additionally, they're all snippy. Why is it only Lindsay who has an ulterior motive when she's being snippy?

Because a lot of time she seems to use it when she wants someone to do something for her.

She had a bloody secret in the beginning; whether a shooting was part of that secret, that early, is more iffy...although I'm not sure what they had planned that early. No, I don't think she's always kept out of shooting scenes and yeah I agree it mostly has to do with other action-characters and Belknap's pregnancies. But I do think the producers/writers try to adhere to that part of her past whenever something else doesn't take precedent (for example with that DOA for a Day example: creepy-double-date, anyone?).

Eh, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. I think they had it planned early on, since it was in the character description and she made the comment about bloody crime scenes in "Manhattan Manhunt." I don't think the show is really subtle--if she was being kept away from potential shoot outs, we'd know about it because someone would have mentioned it.

Well, when CSIs blow up during an interrogation it usually is at the suspect, not at each other. Lindsay isn't the first, and unlike others was able to remove herself from the room rather than having to be dragged out by a colleague. I totally agree the outburst was a mistake; that's why I figure leaving was the best attempt to correct that mistake. Leaving (assuming the interrogation continues after she left, as it could easily have done) prevents the suspect from being more uncomfortable with the questioning - the detective with the seeming-vendetta against them is gone.

Yeah, it's just that it was done so dramatically. It screamed "attention whore" to me. Leaving and storming off are different things, and she definitely did the latter.

'Kay, I have to rewatch that :lol: - I could've sworn Adam had just dropped off lab results to Mac and Danny, then hung around while they discussed them. I know Angell was in the scene with Mac and Danny after that, at the kindergarten, but Danny didn't make the comment at the kindergarten...

If we're thinking of the same comment, yeah, he did. He said "This is the last place I want to be looking for a killer" when he, Angell and Mac got to the kindergarten. Maybe he said something earlier in front of Adam? I don't recall. But if Mac was there, I imagine Mac was his intended audience--and Danny does have a history of reaching out to Mac for comfort/support.

So, so true about them not sharing a scene till 414; I think one of them was avoiding the other. But given her phone calls in "AitF" and the fact that the very next time we saw them together after "Child's Play", Lindsay was sullen despite Danny being all happy...tells me it wasn't her doing the avoiding. Didn't seem like she was that happy about being avoided, either.

It's definitely possible that he was avoiding her, though I'm not sure we can know that for sure. In 411 and 412, they were assigned to different cases, and in 413, he was dealing with something else and avoiding everyone. Even if he was avoiding her, we don't know that she ever tried to reach out to him.

True about the slack-pick-up, but I think in the "AitF" case that would only work if Lindsay was going to be working at the same time Danny would be. They indicated that she was just getting off a shift of her own (I'm assuming so, because I don't see how she could work her own shift and cover someone else's at the same time). If we're going by what Danny could have been expecting, she should've been at home, not calling him - maybe called later that day or at the start of her next shift, once she'd discovered he'd skipped a shift. Hawkes should've been the coworker Danny was expecting a call from; although I agree he probably was in panic mode.

I assumed they had the same shift and by "cover for him," she meant she'd make an excuse to Mac, which she did. I assume she took on extra work, but not that she worked an actual double shift.

Yes exactly, but the moment Danny made that leap, Mac knew about it. And Mac (I need to watch this episode to be perfectly sure, but I think so) knew that Danny's problem was with his thinking Danny was guilty. It was all right there in the open, there wasn't much of a "you're shutting me out and I don't know why" factor.

Mac was the person Danny needed to appeal to--to shut him out would have been counterproductive. Though when he felt he was being shut out by Mac, that's when he went out on his own, called Flack and then went to IAB.

Then why didn't this sensitivity make an appearance when Mac accused/attacked him in C&M? And I'm not sure accusing automatically means "attacking" - if someone does something and they get called out for it, is the person calling them out "attacking" them?

I totally remember Danny cringing slightly when Mac chewed him out in C&M. It's been ages and ages since I've seen the episode, but I do remember him eventually shutting down. But in that case, it was clear that Danny did what Mac was upset at him for. In the other case, is it possible to shut someone out if they never reach out to you??

No, but there are "meaner" ways to say that exact same thing that might give you the appearance of a shield - like maybe the way Lindsay's "my mistake for thinking you might need someone to lean on" covered her own wish that he'd leaned on her? When she paused after her "do it all on your own" comment, he so should've said something like "Well, where the hell were you?" or even "Maybe if you'd been around"...it's always tough to tell anyone something that'll leave you vulnerable, and especially during a fight - that's why people use shields, make hostile remarks that cover sincere vulnerability. Lindsay did it, Danny could've done the same; as he's done before in fights with other people. It would've been really easy if Danny aimed his "wish you'd reach out" as a hostile shot in the fight.

He could have but he was already pretty darn broken down. I really don't think that can be discounted. He was already depressed, and I don't think he had much fight left in him. As you've mentioned before, his attempts to get her to talk to him before "Personal Foul" were pretty half-hearted. I think that was a real low point for him.

She did tell him not to mistake her anger for "jealousy" - we might disagree, but I think Danny assumed she knew, and realized it right then.

The jealousy is still a reach I think. If she knew, I think she'd be downright furious, especially if she considered herself his girlfriend. Cheating is not an issue that gets masked in an argument--it's front and center.

He was grieving on his own - I think he should've said something about how she wasn't there in the first place right then, but he did seem to shut her (and to be fair, others) out, and I think he knew it on some level.

I do think this is what got him, and sure, he felt bad about it. But was she right to make him feel bad about it, when she never really reached out? Just because he felt bad about it doesn't make her right. He pushed Flack away, he even got snippy with Flack and told Flack he should have minded his own business, and Flack's response was one of love and patience and understanding.

And he was reducing her to a shallow, clingy girlfriend with the remarks about her birthday and lunch. Reducing her because there was a time when he gave her more credit than that.

But that's how she presented herself. Why make a big deal out of him forgetting her birthday rather than saying, "I'm trying to be there for you and you're shutting me out." (If that's even what she was doing.) Why get pissed about the lunch rather than saying, "I want to be there for you." She was acting like a shallow person, at the very least. Maybe he gave her more credit before because she deserved it, but she certainly didn't seem to when she was going on about him forgetting her birthday in the aftermath of a kid's death.

Again, we totally disagree on the degree to which Danny might be guilty of those things and whether he might be justified in being guilty (I know you think Lindsay deserved the birthday-and-lunch remark at least, although I can't agree). But she wasn't pulling accusations out of thin air, he did those things as surely as he went to IAB. And that's personally why I think he went silent, like he did over the IAB thing with Mac; he knew she was right.

Did he, or was he just kind of beaten down? Again, even if he'd been reducing her to that in his mind, it was based on her own behavior. How are you supposed to behave towards someone who gripes about her birthday and gets pissy over a missed lunch when you're grieving the loss of a child?

Maybe it's possible that PF was what Danny was referring to when he said they got back together - "back together" for the one night?

But then what about the "it hasn't been the same" or whatever Danny said? I think they were still together, but there was a wall between them, and maybe a desire to keep things out of the workplace.

Because I'd definitely get trying to be more subtle at work if it were just that, but they were subtle at work in PF, and even during the last scenes of LWFM when they were in scenes together. Without that morgue conversation in PF, I don't think anyone at the lab could've outed them as a couple. In Season 2 they were entirely professional in scenes together (ie, "Super Men", except for the "Marry me" thing). Subtle and cordial at work; the producers have done it before with these two and it worked fine. All they'd've had to do was even throw in a "hi" to each other - and heck, they managed that with Flack and Lindsay in "Sex, Lies, and Silicone". What's with subtle and downright icy? (Not looking at, not speaking, etc)

I don't know--again, I mostly chalk it up to the fact that the producers were intending to break them up until Anna Belknap got pregnant again.

He pointedly never gave her the chance to prove him right or wrong; every time she tried to deal with his emotions (directly or indirectly) she was brushed aside, and he never once came to her hoping/asking for that support. I think it's very likely he does the same with his other girlfriends; assumes they won't want to deal emotionally with him and heads them off before they get a chance to prove a thing to him. But that doesn't really explain why he loses interest in them and their lives after they've become his girlfriend...

I know Carmine said something in one of his interviews about Danny starting to see Lindsay "wasn't all he thought she was" or something like that. Maybe he was starting to see that self-involved side of her more clearly once he was with her. I think Danny's walls come up once he's with someone... he's just waiting for them to not want to deal with him or find him more trouble than he's worth, so he tries to avoid that by keeping that side of himself from them, and in the process puts up a wall that drives the girlfriend away. Just a guess--it's hard to say because the only girlfriend we've really seen him with is Lindsay.

That's not what she was doing in PF (although I agree neither of them really heard each other) - I think Danny would've actually had to accuse her of something before she could get defensive or excuse-making.

She was totally making excuses, to make herself feel better. "I tried to give you your space" = "I know I wasn't there for you but I assumed that was what you wanted." He wasn't accusing her, which probably actually did make her feel guilty. Had he accused her of anything, she would have gotten defensive.

But anyway, I was also referring a little to "The Triangle": Lindsay explaining that they should wait and even why they should wait, Danny nods like he heard her and then presses again a couple of months later.

Totally, because Danny in essentially an insecure child. Though I'm sure the fact that he had to chase after her to get an explanation did nothing to make him feel more secure.

I don't know, in the literature I've read (and movies I've seen) desire tends to be more selfish than anything. People ruin the person they're desiring, out of desire - rather than themselves (like for example, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream). I've read and seen tons of things where love/desire/whatever-it-is gets self-destructive, but in those books its never solely desire that people are acting on. There's just not enough in that wedding or this marriage for Lindsay, compared to Danny, and she knew that going in. Additionally, she has a lot to lose when Danny decides he doesn't want/need her anymore, whereas it doesn't seem like she's about to come to an epiphany of her own like that anytime soon (deciding she doesn't want Danny, I mean). So I call it self-destructive.

In ruining the person they desire, they ruin themselves too--think Othello and to some extent Hamlet (though he had bigger problems, lol). I can't see any other reason for Lindsay to marry Danny other than the fact that she wants him and is willing to overlook the enormous insecurity the proposal is obviously coming from. Why else would she do it? She's not going to marry Danny just to make him feel better--no one is that self-sacrificing, certainly not Lindsay!! She wants him, and wants to believe what he's saying.

Even when she indicated she wanted to hear it during the phone call? (It did seem like when she says "I tried to give you your space", that could've been a perfect opening to tell her it wasn't his space he needed.) I could see how he might've been worried she'd hang up if they got into it right then, but he already kind of knew she wanted to know what she'd done wrong by the time she reached his place in PF. He could have said something then.

I don't think she wanted to know what she'd done wrong so much as justify what she did. She knew she wasn't there for him--she wanted him to say that okay/show that he didn't hold her accountable. He was in salvage mode, so he said what she wanted to hear. Again, I think it kind of goes to show he was probably abused as a child--the abuser tearfully apologies to the kid, and the kid has to make the abuser feel better. Not saying Lindsay was abusing Danny, but that he's playing into a pattern he's familiar with. Otherwise why wouldn't he just say to her what you suggested, that his space wasn't what he needed? That certainly seems logical to me, to you--to a normal person. But Danny isn't emotionally healthy.

In "Taxi", she said she kind of missed the "Montana" nickname after Hawkes apologized for using it, and yeah there was the longing look in "Hostage"; but you know, in terms of getting over someone that's not that bad. It's natural to miss someone you've just broken up with, but she certainly seemed more functional than she was after the run-in with Danny in "LWFM", and it definitely seemed like she'd moved on in the beginning of Season 5.

Well, again, she was originally intended to. Belknap's pregnancy = altered up storylines.

Yeah, but that's basically "I'm opposing you" aggression, which Danny typcally doesn't respond well to (like, Mac's gotten "in your face" aggressive with him too, and it just makes Danny more defensive). I think Flack was just radiating that he wasn't going to leave, and it never crossed Danny's mind to try running from him. There didn't seem to be even an unconscious level of force involved with making Danny talk in that scene.

Not "I'm opposing you" so much as "I'm not going anywhere until you let me help you." I re-watched their scenes in the episode over the weekend and was once again struck by how passive Danny is when Flack shows up. I think it speaks to their relationship more than anything else--Danny clearly knows Flack means business, and Flack's actions showed he wasn't going anywhere. Danny rebelled a bit, but in a mostly passive way--not answering his phone. The one time he actively rebelled--taking Rikki out of the alley--he caved pretty quickly.