The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Ok so it's a form of denial?

Which is fine by me. I understand now. Thank you.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'll try a few from CSI:Miami.

Calleigh/Ryan: Well, obviously, I'm all for that. When he just joined the CSI's, no one really liked him, in fact, most people disliked him. Calleigh was the first one to get to know him better, and she was the first one to really like him. The rest started warming up for him after that, but I was already in love with these two at that time. The smiles, the flirty comments, and even a playfull smack on the chest (from the grave) it's all there. Love them, and nothing will change my mind about that.

Eric/Calleigh: No, I don't really like them together. After Speed died, Eric started acting weird, like that time when he lost his badge (can't remember the episodes name) and the woman...I personally think Calleigh needs someone to be there for her, to be true to her and I'm not sure if Eric can be that person. But maybe I just don't like them because I like CaRWash that much. I don't know.

Horatio/Yelina: Yes, I don't mind this ship at all. When they thought Ray was dead, Horatio was always there for her, he helped her, and you could see the chemisty between them. Horatio also felt responsible for Ray jr., which helped me a lot. When Ray turned out to be alive, and he left with Yelina and Ray jr, I was disappointed. I wanted Yelina to stay.

I don't ship Slash, so I won't talk about that. Not that I mind, I just don't ship it.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

In the scene I'm speaking of, Grissom is saying it to both Greg AND Sara, and neither of them asks for this, nor do they look really really pleased with themself. I believe it's the episode Committed. Sara didn't need his approval, my point is that when Grissom says it, he sounds genuinely surprised at how far they've come on their own as CSIs. Therefore HE is now beginning to see them as more professionally parallel. It had nothing to do with how she felt because, again, unlike in Blood Lust where she does sort of blush and smile to herself, she just gives a nod as if to say "Thank you and moving on".

This idea that Sara waits around him like a lap dog really stopped after about Season 3.

I don't think shipping Snickers is a form of denial at all. I personally see them as great friends, however they do flirt a LOT, like Grissom and Catherine who are also just friends. Having said that, the flirting does sometimes have a bit of a "do we maybe like each other?" edge to it. In the first season, you got the feeling that there was a strong possibility that both Snickers and Grillows would be highly possible. As time went on and we learned more about their characters it became lesser so, but still - when Sara waves the little nigthie in front of Nick in Roshomama and asks for his "hands" and he happily asks what he can do... I don't see that as being something you'd do with your brother. Likewise, I don't see you telling your sister that you really missed her ass.

Friends flirt, and I think that they're all so close that, again, early on a lot of pairings were very possible, and still are.

But right now this is just the route that TPTB have chosen.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Ok, my multishipper heart is going to come out... Right now! I state in advance that I ship mostly GSR in LV, but as for Miami I just think Calleigh would be fine with any of the three guys, more or less equally.


Sara/Grissom: well, this is THE ship. I actually started watching CSI when I saw by mistake the "Pin me down" scene and since then I've always been a GSR Shipper. They are similar and yet different, so they both understand and complete each other, even if I admit that lately I like GSR mainly because Sara thinks Griss is the right one for her and because my eternal dream has now come true: I really had given it up with them, but Way To Go made me resume my old, faithful Geek heart.

Sara/Nick: this is the reason why I started having doubts on GSR. I honestly can't see any particular chemistry between Sara and Nick, but I think he's the one who suits her best. He's kind and loving and I can't help thinking he'd make a great husband and father, especially with Sara by his side.


Caleigh/Horatio: it was my first Miami ship. Season one was the best for them, they had great interaction and I thought they would make a lovely couple, mainly because H needs someone who can cheer him up a bit, and who can do that better than a southern beauty like Cal? The disppointment came with the most recent seasons, where their beautiful relationship seemed to fade away, replaced by all the soapy stuff about H that came out in S4.

Calleigh/Eric: They make a hot couple, if you know what I mean. They're both sexy and smart and I think there used to be a good chemistry between them, even if now it's nearly totally disappeared. I love the contrast between their appearance: he's tall and athletic, typically hispanic, while Cal is a petite blonde with pale skin and green eyes, but they also get along so well... The definitely match each other. Too bad the writers seem to have different opinions about them.

Calleigh/Ryan: They are made for each other. As soon as I saw then together I immediately thought "Wow, that's hot!" and I really think Ryan is the best guy for Cal. They have chemistry and they have that flirtatious attitude all the time... I can't deny I'm expecting to see them together sooner or later, because they deserve it. Even though Ryan's younger than Cal, he's also very caring and sweet and he'd prove a perfect boyfriend. Besides Calleigh lately has become so different than the Calleigh I feell for in the previous seasons and Ryan would make her the old one again.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well, I was going to clean house.. but that can wait while I write this up!

This is probably going to be in no particular order except the order I think of them in...

Grissom/Sara: My number one ship. From the second episode ever of CSI, I was hooked because there was this interesting dynamic of teacher/student that had become more... but as the seasons went on, I forgot about their teacher/student relationship. By season 3, when Sara actually asked him out, they seemed more like friends and coworkers, even though he was still her boss. She was no longer pretending to know things she didn't just to impress him, and I don't think she said "yes, sir" once during that whole season. Her timing was off, yes, but she tried. After that, season 4 and 5, they seemed distant. The flirtation was diminished, their coziness cut into either by the rift in their relationship or the producer's whims. "Butterflied" was a rough one, and, I think, part of the reason Sara stopped pushing as hard. She got a glimpse into his psyche, into who he hid from the world. And she was affirmed in her suspicion that he cared, but also crushed that his fears overwhelmed his desire to be with her.. and I think it hurt him, too, hence his sigh when Dr. Lurie walked out of the room. Here was a man who had taken the leap and gotten stung, just another reason NOT to leap, right? But, I think Grissom had to wonder if there was another side to that coin, if there was another option..

Season 5 came, fairly dry on the GSR front. Then, Nesting Dolls hit, and both Grissom and Sara were put on the spot. When he went to her apartment, he was forcing himself to take initiative. Grissom, as evidenced in almost all their other interactions, tended to back down, to wimp out on Sara. She was always the one pushing, trying, searching. He would get frightened, and let her get away. I think that's another reason we had the out-of-place conversation in "Snakes." At the end of it, Grissom seemed to be making an effort, so it made sense for him to show up at her door in Nesting Dolls. He was making the effort again. That was a turning point for them.

I've seen people bring up "Unbearable" and I honestly believe that moment of jealousy was meant to push the "triangle" they were trying to form. I've never been a fan of triangles for any show... Anyways, Sara was a bit jealous, but she swallowed her jealousy, entered the room, and went about her business. It showed growth. Then, in "Committed," after Sara had been attacked, Grissom had his back to the crime scene, his eyes on her, his attention given completely to her. Growth.

I love this relationship because the two characters have had the opportunity to grow together. Looking back at some of the earlier seasons, I get why I liked it then, and why I definitely would not like it now... the two characters are not the same people they were when it started, and neither am I... So, in short (hah), that's why I love these two together.

Sara/Nick

See, this is a fun one for me, because I do see some chemistry there, and were I not a GSR fan, I might sway Snickers. I've told my multishipper friends that quite often, that I could see where people might think Nick and Sara were good for each other. They both have fun, pick on each other personalities. However, I've never seen any moments I considered especially "Shippy" between them. Their characters seem to lend themselves to overt chemistry, but I never saw the extra spark to carry them into the romantic arena. That's not to say it still would not be possible, or that it would surprise me if TPTB decided to put these two characters together.

I guess that's what I'm saying: Nick is the only other guy I can really see Sara with if she's not with Grissom. It just works.

They balance each other out. When one is being overly passionate and engaged in a case, the other can reel them in. However, in season 6, I began to see their interaction as more platonic, more brother/sister.. and that was LONG before I heard any spoilers for "Way to Go."

Cath/Gris

I never saw this relationship as anything more than supportive. I just never saw any romantic aspect to it. And I know people of each of these ship groups can name a thousand other moments that were shippy to them just as I can name moments of my fav ships, I just, personally, never saw it. I entered the show with the very first episode, via my fiance's DVDs, so I watched from the beginning, and this relationship never seemed more than professional and friendly. Catherine and Grissom seem like best friends who have been through a lot together, but who have no romantic attachment. I definitely feel that Catherine has a great sense of Grissom and his wacko personality, but I don't think he's what she's looking for in a man.

Warrick/Cath

Which leads me to this ship, which I actually really enjoy watching on the screen. Before season 5, I never would have thought of these two together, but the actors bring a great heat and fire to their characters' chemistry. It feels electric. When, in one of the early episodes of season 5 ("Down the Drain?"), they had that "almost kiss" moment, I almost squeed. When they were betting about the basketball game and who would take who to dinner, that CHARM Warrick was exhibiting in her direction made me just love the relationship. He's always been good with Lindsey, keeping an eye on her when things were rough, and he's always been someone Catherine could cling to.

I think, if Catherine were in a major jam, she'd be calling Warrick before she'd call Grissom, and it's not about who is a better friend, it's about who she connects with more on that emotional level, and I think it's always been Warrick.

I hope Tina is out of the equation this season, as I was distressed she was thrown in to create the "triangle" effect, and it just went nowhere. If she is out of the equation, I'm hoping for some more juicy YoBling moments with that PASSION.

Sofia/Nick

I'm going to be honest, I didn't like Sofia to begin with because she was being used as a plot-device to establish a triangle. I absolutely abhor triangles on television shows, so, I was very close-minded about this character. However, season 5, with her not being used (except for a few moments) as the triangle point, I've actually warmed up to her. And I LOVE her with Nick. They had very few scenes together, but there is a warmth to their interactions, like Nick can relax when he's around her. Season 5 was rough on Nick, and he entered this season with a lot of fears to overcome, a lot of issues to deal with. All that seems to melt away when he is with Sofia.

There was a moment, close to the end of season 6, when Nick put his hand on Sofia's back as he passed her in the hall, and I thought it was just adorable. They have a coziness of two people who have just met, but feel like they've spent a lifetime together because it just WORKS.

Sofia/Gris

I think I would have believed it more if the producers hadn't gone the "Triangle/Catfight" route. And I have never seen Gris with anyone but Sara. I can see Sara with other guys, but can't see him with any other female... and I just like SoNic too much. I do, however, think there were plenty of moments for this ship to find a following, which it has. There were some nice moments, there, when the producers were trying to make this ship come together. I just wasn't a fan.

Catherine/Nick

I never ever saw this until I started checking out the CatNip thread. Not kidding. Once I was in there, and people were naming moments, I could actually believe it could, maybe, happen. If I remember correctly, the original plan of the pilot was to showcase these two in a relationship. They have a nice flow to their interactions and conversations, but I think this relationship is more subdued than the heat of YoBling. Just my opinion.

I don't think there are any others I really feel confident to talk about. I've never seen "Lady Heather's Box" which is apparently the big LH/Gris episode, so I don't feel qualified to talk about it... so... yeah... I guess I'll shut up for now.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I agree with you. However, I wasn't saying shipping snickers is a form of denail. I was talking about people seeing Nick and Sara are just bro/sis as a form of denial, which is what I got from sissi's post.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

OH! Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yeah, I do agree that labelling people in a sort of... incestual way to make it impossible for them to be a couple is rather cheap. Again, like I said - you wouldn't wave a nightie in front of your brother and ask for his hands, and you wouldn't tell your sister you missed her tush.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

LOL alright we're clear

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

ohh! this thread is rather funky. i think i'll chip in. i'm a bit of a slash whore...so it'll be something different for here.

first up is New York.
Danny and Flack
it's the chemistry. there's a lot of it. Danny always seems to much more relaxed around Flack, opens up to him more than anyone. in "On The Job", when Flack saw the officers were ffecting Danny, he told them all to clear off. It was ncie how he could sense Danny's mood, then took him to a cafe where he listened to Danny, rather than Mac, who quite frankly was a prat in that eppy.
The same happened in Heroes, Danny had been getting all enraged over Aiden's case, but when Flack came in, I think it grounded him a little.
Also in Necrophilia Americana, the way they played off each other was great to watch! and The Wave (yeah! it deserves caps lol) was just cute.

Mac and Stella
I'm not an avid poster for them, but I do ship them. Liek someone else said, they are both mature about their work, yet anyone can see that they have something that runs a little deeper than just a professional relationship. Stella seems to like touching him a lot too...haha, yeah yeah you'll say it's sisterly, maybe it is, but it's all really nice to watch.

the one ship i really dislike in Ny is
Danny and Lindsay

There is no chemistry here i don't think. Everything sounds so forced, and unnatural. I think the comment in Stealing Home, from Hammerback "It's because he has a crush on you" was a bit unnecessary. It felt as if the writers were forcing us into beleiving there was something there. Or, they may have realised there wasn't any chemistry so had to actually state that Danny had this "crush" on Lindsay.
There was apparently meant to be a scene with Danny and Lindsay in the finale that spelled it out for us, I'm glad it was cut, as it would have taken the shine off of the slightly more important issue that was Flack getting blown up. I wasn't too happy that they both decided to just up and leave Flack in the hospital, but I understood that they couldn't stay all night, like Mac, who jsut does things like that lol.

onto Miami.
I don't ship anyone anymore in Miami. However in the past...

Horatio and Speed
I don't think I can explain these two. There was nothing fatherly about Horatio's relationship with Speed. I don't mean as in a partner-outside-of-work relationship, i simply mean...yeah I can't explain anything very well! In the end, when Speed died, Horatio's reaction raised a few eyebrows across the shipping world. People in my house were questioning it too, and they, unlike me, didn't ship anyone!
I was quite sad when Speed died, I would've liked to have seen how their relationship grew.

Also like someone said, Eric and Calleigh don't have much chemistry, never mind screen time, together anymore. It's really disppointing, as I think these two would have made a great couple. But Calleigh seems to have become quite robotic in season 4, whereas Eric has never been the same since the death of Speed, and is quite unstable.

FINALLY we come to Vegas. and there is only one ship there for me, and yeah, you guessed it, it's slash.
Nick and Greg
My god, it's hard to word everything about these two. Chemistry again, is a big issue. When they're together, they're fantastic to watch. You can see that they obviously have something a little deeper than the co-worker thing. a bit like Mac & Stella in that respect, as well as the touching thing. Nick touches Greg a hell of a lot I notice. Their conversations are flirtacious and sometimes pretty damn funny! I personally think the way they look at each other is a little more than a "just friends" looking at each other thing.

sheesh! never written a post this long in my whole time here!

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

GSR: Alyssa, I was all ready to go on and on about my fav ship, but you have pretty much summed up everything I would want to say about the two. They have always had chemistry and attraction for eachother, but it isn't until recently that they have grown/matured enough to be together.

I agree. Reminds me of a fanfic I read that ended with Sara finding out Grissom was her father. ACK!

Sandles: Yes, so I live and breathe GSR, but if Grissom never existed this would be my ship. They are so cute together, and Greg really brings out the happiness in Sara (which can't always be said about Grissom). Working with Greg and teaching him has done great things for her.

Snickers: I think that if the writers chose to they could make this ship work. I think in earlier seasons they may have been toying with the idea, but recently we don't get any Sara/Nick moments that aren't just friendship. I can see the chemistry, but I don't think it is going anywhere.

Grissom/Sophia: I could see this working, which is probably why I was so nervous about my ship the season she was introduced. She's direct, and not afraid to challenge Grissom intellectually. They had a great chemistry and still do. I will say, though, I like Sophia more now that my ship is canon.

Yobling: There is a palpable attraction between Catherine and Warrick. I could see them having a physical relationship, but only after Warrick is no longer with his wife (which I suspect will happen soon after the finale). I am undecided yet whether I think this ship could go anywhere. I think with all of the hoopla around GSR becoming cannon and "stop,its about the science!" talk, I doubt we will see the consummation of other ships any time soon.

That's my two cents.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I said I would try and list the cons, and after much thought this is what I came up with. Know, I shall respectfully point out the cons of each Sara-relationship (as I see it). Even sandle.

Grissom and Sara: Quite possibly the most angsty, if not depressing couple on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. There was so much tension and negativity between these two that at one point one must say "enough is enough". Some people get tired of all the drama and those who don't may just dislike the coupling. One term that comes to mind is "hero-worship". Sara doesn't know much about Grissom but decides she wants to be with him? Even after he rejects her? Whether it's because of their subordinate/boss relationship or because he's much older than her, or simply because they don't see any "chemistry" between them, this couple has alot of things stacked against them. Not good.

Nick and Sara: Just friends - at least according to TPTB. They definitely had something in the first season or so but soon their playful banter got toned down and their competitive natures got to them. Case in point, when they were competing for the promotion. Nothing says "kill any hopes of a relationship" like pitting them against each other. Oh, and having them date other people! They haven't directly shown any interest in each other and as far as some people see, they just fool around like good buddies. That's probably about all it will be.

Warrick and Sara: They've had minimal interraction. That alone shrinks their chances of getting together. They need to converse more and find out if they have anything in common! Warrick and Sara aren't the most tolerant couple; they would butt heads at any given chance. They're both prone to jealousy, stubborness, and their own flaws. Most likely, they would get into one too many arguments and this whole thing would end up fizzling.

Greg and Sara: It's just a little crush. One sided love hurts. Ya' gotta feel for Greg. He seems to adore Sara but she won't give him the time of day. In many ways his admiration of Sara reflects her fixation on Grissom and that's just unhealthy. Maybe his crush is just a passing thing (after all he flirts with just about every girl he sees), and when he finally meets a woman who appreciates him for the guy he is, he may just move on... Now I'll move on!

Sara slash: Not probable, not even possible. There seems to be nothing to suggest a possible attraction. In fact Sara didn't seem to get along with most of the women she works with! (at least not at first) Catherine, Sofia, Mia... Barely a close friendship here. Oh well, that's how it goes sometimes. *sigh*

Feel free to argue my cons, but remember I tried not to attack or offend. Just listed possible reasons why these relationships might not work.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Wow...

I had written my post and because I took my time & really thought it out before posting it, I hit Send and...Nothing...So, I hit the back button and...EVERYTHING I had taken so much time to write had disappeared...Argh...

But I just wanna say, the non-GSR shippers here pretty much summed up my feelings...Its not that I "hate Sara" or that "Gris is too old for her" or that he's her boss...I simply don't see any chemistry there...I did in Season 1 until they turned Sara into a basketcase, but after that, I got so disgusted with the way they wrote her to be such a doormat that I lost any interest in her as anything more than a peripheral character I tolerated...And I think her becoming a basketcase made Grissom retreat further into his shell, too...

And I HATE that TPTB are trying to pass off 6 years of angst and a 2 minute last ditch "Suddenly they're a couple! And its not so new! Deal with it!" as good plotting...WTF???...TPTB need to stop smokin' that OOOOOEEE on the job...Seriously...

I know that's sad...And I have NO bad feelings for the actress herself...But the character of Sara simply bores me to tears...

Having said that, I can't see Grissom with Sofia...Dunno why...Nothing in particular...I see her more with Brass...

Catherine?...Nope...She loves Gris, but only as a friend...And part of me thinks he has a crush on her that comes & goes...Or that they tried to be more way long ago, but decided it'd never work & remained deep close friends...

Catherine/Warrick...I can see it, but I think TPTB screw around too much dragging plots out & ignoring continuity so I dunno if they'll let it happen...

Sara/Nick...She's happier/sunnier/better when interracting with Nicky, but frankly, I don't want him with her...He's been through ENOUGH...Let him have a nice relationship with a nice gal offscreen that we occassionally might hear about, but no need to see...Sorta like David's fiance'...Nick deserves happiness...

Sara/Greg...This totally pisses me off...OK, he's cuter than cute and sweeter than sweet...And he ADORES Sara...Her response?...Treat him like Grissom treats her...Argh...Let Greg find happiness somewhere else...

Sara/Hodges...I think this could work...Seriously...But I dunno how they'd get together...<shrugs>

Oh!...A friend recommended that I read these fics she's been going on & on about written by Cincoflax & VR Trakowski...They're Brass/Lady Heather...I had never thought of these 2 in a ship, but I gotta tellya...These 2 writers make you hang on every single word...You will completely believe them as a couple...And its sooo romantic...And there's angst, too...I think they'e at Eleanor's Universe ...Google it...They wrote several that all go together...AWESOME...

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I think part of the problem is in trying to find the line of canon.

If there hadn't been rumors that Jorja and Gary dated, would there even be this much support for Checkmate?

If Marg and Billy weren't quite so obviously good friends, and if there weren't pictures of them kissing at award shows, would their characters' ship be as strong?

If George and Jorja, likewise, weren't always play-bantering, would that be such a huge ship?

That is the problem, for me. People argue chemistry chemistry chemistry, but aren't they really saying - "But I saw George kiss Jorja on TV" or "I saw Marg and Billy kissing when they accepted People's Choice". I mean, the actors aren't tied to their characters.

I see friendship between those three pairings, and in the case of Warrick and Sara, they're around each other so little that even that would be a stretch.

But Sara and Nick and Catherine and Grissom have really strong ties as friends. They have good chemistry as friends.

I think people want it in a neat and tidy package - like Hestia said, Grissom and Sara have always been really hard to watch. They angst over each other, they push one-another away, then they kind of make grabs that always seem to fall flat... until now. But that's still chemistry. I mean, it's when you feel no chemistry at all that you don't even know it's coming. People sensed GSR. It wasn't happy and light and fluffy, so they don't want to call it chemistry, but any time there is a visible tension - be it sexual or otherwise - in the room when two characters are just talking, that's chemistry.

And the final scene in Time of Your Death? Major chemistry.

The only couples that have also been made canon in the sense that characters physically came right out and said it or it was just deathly clear are: Grissom and Sara, Warrick and Catherine and Greg and Sara.

Everything else is speculation and, I suspect, borne of people not able to find that line of canon.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I agree with you...I hung out at a board for a looong time for a sci-fi movie that was sequelled, but by the time it was, fanfic writers had written INCREDIBLE fics that became "canon" in the minds of fans...To the point that the much anticipated sequel movie pretty much fell flat with many fans...Interesting, huh?

Mebbe some folks are feeling that & it gets muddy for them...For me, it has nothing to do with that...I rarely see them outside of CSI and thier roles...

ABSOLUTELY...I agree...

Again, I agree...

I think for myself it simply dragged on waaay tooo looong...Until I stopped rooting for/caring about Sara one way or another...Then finally just had to ignore her to enjoy the show at all...

You raise a good point...I hear this alot from mostly GSR shippers...As a non-GSR shipper, I can't speak for anyone, but myself...But for me, when I say I don't see chemistry, I mean I realize TPTB are WRITING that the couple are "destined" to end up together and that will become "canon", but when I watch them together, I don't see any sexual tension/"chemistry" at all...NONE...Zip...NADA...

Not because they fumble, not because they are lousy at expressing thier feelings, not because they aren't nice looking people...I can't even picture them doing anything other than walk next to each other...Seriously...The thought of them kissing?...I can't picture it...And I sure can't picture anything else...I've read G/S fics where they "make love"...I crack up...It's absurd to me...But that's ME...Everybody's different...I never saw Brad Pitt & Jennifer Anniston as a couple, either...(Now, Brad & Angelina...Mwrar...I can see the phermones dripping off them in Mr. & Mrs. Smith, too)...

I'll give you an example...In real life, if Sara & Grissom were my friends?...I'd NEVER try to set them up on a date...It'd never occur to me...I just don't see it...AND if they went out on thier own & I found out, I'd be like, "HUH??? No WAY!!! Sara and Grissom???"

When I first started watching, before I knew anything about anybody, I saw a lil bit of flirting and went back to watch the episodes from the beginning...After she turned all wacky, I guess I lost interest and from then until now I haven't been able to see any connection between those two...And the coupla times he's held her hand?...I just kinda thinks its one person trying to comfort another...I don't see it as "shippy"...