The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Okay....I have a question. This might sound a bit like "Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That" crap or whatever, but it's come into my mind and I think it could be a fair argument.

Why is it that when it comes to GSR, very often people equate "angst" with "complexity"?

I mean, when I see Sara pine over Grissom, I find it somewhat painful to watch most of the time. I mean, she spiraled pretty hard when he rejected her, and she spiraled again in "Butterflied" and "Unbearable" to name a few others.

I understand she's a character who's fueled by the inner emotions that she tries to hide from everyone else, but I'm not sure how the angst she expresses over him can make their relationship "complex". Also, I've always felt that when they fight, like in "Sex, Lies, and Larvae", or when opens up a la "Too Tough to Die" or "Nesting Dolls", that their interactions are loaded with drama and angst. But, each of them have opened up to other people in the past for different things, too.

So, basically, Why does their relationship establish "complexity" through angst and not other relationships? What's the difference?

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

oh what an interesting thread and for the first time of my life i'm happy to be a multishipper lol:

CSIvegas
-Nick/Sara: that is my mainly ship, i love the interaction between Nick and Sara sicne the beginning of the show, they bring something to each other; sometimes just look is enough between them, words are useless and it's better this way. Sara is an independant women, with her dark side and she needs someone who is the totally opposite of her , and well i assume Nick is that man not only him of course , but he is one choice.

-Sara/Grissom: i definetly see something between them, i can't deny it: before i was mainly GSR then i turned to Snicker but i can't repress a smile when i see a cute scene between those two: Grissom was the only men she knew when she first came in Vegas, i guess he was a good support for her. Later , Grissom became darker and Sara followed him on the dark side. Now they are lightening up each other lives and i'm all okay with that .

-Greg/Sara: Lol that ship is the cuttest one; Greg had a crush on Sara since the first season and he never hid it , that's probably what ticked her : someone was showing clearly his interest in her, and she liked it. I'm actually pretty sorry that there is no future for this ship cause Greg is probably the only one who can bring on the bright side of Sara, that's why i always LOVE every interaction between those two

i'm gonna stop talking about Sara cause , like everybody has guessed i ship Sara with everybody, even catherine and LH. I'm a Sara shipper

As for the slash part, there is only one ship i really love and respect:

Nick/Greg aka The love: that one is definetly the most powerful slash ship i ever seen, there is something going on and we are all attracted by this thing, it's almost hypnotic lol I can't say why or how i get hooked, i just follow my little shipper heart

CSI MIAMI

-Ryan/Calleigh: those two makes my heart bumping hard when they are together; Calleigh respects Ryan and he does respects her, their relation was built early on the show. After Speed 's death, he felt alone, especially because of Eric 's hostility toward him. Who was there ? Calleigh, who helped him? Calleigh and now he is helping her back. They are here for each other, now and forever.

Eric/Calleigh: ha ha that one is the hottest one i ever seen lol i wasn't hooked at first so i've read some post on their thread and now i loved it and i can't help but noticing the sparks between them. They are the definition of passion.

-Ryan/Eric: that's my little secret lol no one knows i'm secretly shipping them....Oh but now everybody does they are always on competition, always trying to find out who is the strongest, that's what i call "harsh love"

CSI NY

Danny/Flack: that's my only ship on CSI ny :lol: Danny is the emotionnal, Flack the conforting one, they complete each other: one is the Ying the other is the Yang. I can't imagine one without the other, trully , madly , deeply made for each other. They shared hard periods together but find the light at the end of the tunnel, always together.

I think that's all, oh i have to mention i really love the threesome ship too, sometimes it's hard to choose only one ship, so i think it's better when you combinate them

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Fair question. First of all, I don't think Sara spiraled at all after Unbearable. She had a moment of sadness when she saw him with Sofia, especially because it was one week after he'd held her hand while she cried and fought for her to keep her job. However in Committed we see him defending her again and flirting with her, but no real evidence of her having been really depressed between then.

As for Butterflied, a lot of things fueled her drinking: the promotion battle in which it was insinuated that she might only get it because she had a history no one knew that well with the boss before Vegas, she lost the rape victim in Homebodies and that hit her hard, so forth and so on. So while yes, Grissom was a part of it, I don't think that situation was 100% about him.

However, angst vs. complexity - yes, there has been angst, but angst on both sides. I think that the complexity comes from who they are - they both had trauma from losing a parent in their childhood, they both have admitted that they like one-another, however previous to Way to Go still seemed to find it difficult to do anything about it. They're hermits, work-a-holics, self-contained people.

So I think the complexity is more about how two people got so wound up that dating was such a huge issue, and not just because of the back-and-forth pining.

So I think it has to do with the parallel. When Grissom opened up to Catherine about his father, it was very clean-cut. When Grissom spoke about what almost happened with Sara in Butterflied, it was very drawn-out and emotional. Likewise, Sara discussing her parents or discussing her motivations for coming to Vegas with Grissom in Snakes.

Which would suggest that their emotions are a lot more complex when they are explaining them to one-another or talking about one-another.

I agree that in several cases (Sofia being the most recent) they did take the angst a little bit too far, and in that case, yes, the scene with Sara spotting them flirting in Unbearable is pure angst, not complexity.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I get where you're coming from, sarahvma .

I think that "Unbearable" shows Sara in a maturity spiral, not necessarily an emotional spiral. This is the one time we've seen Sara get jealous like that, and for me it came out of the blue. I really disliked the Sara/Sofia interactions from there on, mainly because I felt like two mature women would act differently, and TPTB carried it too far with the cattiness.

And, the episode you're refferring to when Sara starts drinking is "Bloodlines". In "Butterflied", Grissom indirectly tells a suspect that Sara has offered him a new life with her, yet he can't risk his work or his integrity to do such and that she couldn't be worth it, all while Sara was watching from the one-way mirror.

I sort of understand the "Forbidden Fruit" element of Grissom's perception of Sara, but if this were so, what changed in between "Butterflied" and "Way To Go"? I'm not sure if any one event could've been enough, especially when it's been hinted at that their relationship has been going on for a while.

Once again, where is the line between "angst" and "complexity"? I figured that most of S4 and S5 were fueled by more angst than complexity, so...what builds and what doesn't?

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I DEFINITELY agree on your second point. On the first, I think again it had more to do with Grissom one week fighting for her job and holding her hand and then cozying up to a new co-worker. Yes, maybe they went too far in portraying her crush. On the second point, like I said, though, I totally agree. And both actresses eventually went to the writers and asked them to stop doing the catfights, so it's clear that they didn't enjoy doing it either. The funny thing is that they wrote a lot of the Sara/Sofia stuff badly, probably because you never quite knew if Grissom's dinner invitation to the latter was 100% a date, and if so... why wasn't there any kind of follow-up? So because of that, we don't know how much Sofia feels like Grissom is "hers'", however we NOW know that Sara very much thought of Grissom as hers' considering they were probably dating at the time.

Yeah, I remember the Butterflied speech and I wasn't saying that Sara's drinking had nothing to do with it, but I think there were also other factors. Ironically it was more that Grissom was giving her hope in saying that he DID like her that was probably why she spiralled, not that he flat-out rejected her.

I think what changed was the repair in their relationship and the both of them finally letting go secrets and troubles they were bearing - Grissom regarding his father, Sara about hers'. They confessed things to each other, combine that with Grissom's paternal feelings toward Nick, and seeing him buried alive... I think that that had a lot to do with it. Both of them were MUCH more emotionally healthy, and several times in the fifth season Grissom remarked at how far Sara had come as a CSI, making them more professionally parallel as well. So I think that they were more healthily ready, but that Nick's capture and Sara's near-death experience in Committed really drove them forward.

Angst is one moment, complexity is the culmination of all of them into the subtext that runs through all scenes. But that's just my interpretation.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

The fact that Grissom had to remark on Sara's professional skills just proves how NOT "professionally parallel" they are. Sara should not need Grissom's good remarks to prove her capability as a CSI, if they are really "professionally parallel".

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Actually cofi, i think this has to do with Sara's personality : she needs her boss showing her she is good at her job and she is doing well....Probably because when she was a child , her private life was chaotic (remember her parent's fight, her mother killed her dad etc) no she needed to prove to herself , and to the society that she can do something of her life, that's why she was so good at school....And even if she had grew up , she kept that part of her, so she desperatly need those remarks. BUT lol i agree with you, for me, they are not "professionally parallel", well i don't see that this way. Oh and Sarahvma, i still don't see the connection between their work and their feelings, would you mind explain it ? thank you

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Yes sissi I agree, I think it has a lot to do with Sara's personality. And Grissom's as well.

I just wanted to point out that those two are so far from being "professionally parallel". Actually, I don't have a problem with the professional aspect. It's the personal aspect I'm more concerned about. Like you said, Sara has always been like that, she "looks for assurance in the wrong places" (her words in Snakes if I remember correctly). I just think Grissom has not handled that very well in the past. I don't think he has the capability to help her gather enough self confidence to overcome that problem. Because as I've enumerated in my first post, there has been too many instances that he has put her down (most probably unintentionally) instead of helping her up. I'm most sure it's not intentional. He just wasn't built like that, because he admittedly has a problem dealing with people in general.

eta: yay for discussions lol

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

And now i totally agree with you: he didn't know how to handle it before but i think that through the season, he did but she actually found the assurance somewhere else, with her colleagues, like Greg or Nick. Being Greg's tutor was beneficial for her: she grew up , emotionaly and professionaly, even if she has some problems with the authority (but hé nobody is perfect ), she showed a brighter side of her. As you said Grissom put her down before and i think that's why she opened to somebody else and grow up, it's like she needed that...Anyway i agree with you: Grissom seemed more confortable with LH , and again i think it has to do with his childhood....He probably has no friend, or not a lot and has developed a special attraction for the weird. I think that's probably what attracted him in LH: she is so unique and special, living on her own world, giving her own rules....

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

LOL sorry for editing my post so many times. The best thing I like about Grissom and LH is that they seem to be at the same level in all aspects: intellectually, emotionally, professionally. It doesn't hurt that I see their chemistry as sizzzzzzling.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

LOL no problem Hun i agree with you again: i think they are somehow connected, but on a superior level. But i also think Sara is connected to Grissom, but on a different level again. Actually they are all connected on some kind of way, that's what make us difficult to see everything , then it's just a business of preference : we all like a ship more than an over cause we catch something special, a special vibe between the characters...Then it doesn't mean that the other ships doesn't exist, just that we didn't catch the "thing"

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I think Cath and Hodges are connected. :lol: So yeah, you can count me as someone who acknowledges most of the connections. I also think it's intentional on TPTB's part. They always find a way to cater to almost everyone's whims by giving each ship a moment every now and then.

Yep you're right again lmao. It's all about preference. I think that's what I like reading here. Why people prefer such and such.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

LOL i do think they are connected to :lol: and you are right again (that's getting boring lol ) TPTB did that as you said to give a moment time to time and i think also to open new perspective on their writing: they can't completely control the actor's chemistry on screen, so sometimes the ship part comes from their acting, and not only from the script. That's the main problem of a cast who knew each other for a long time now...

That's why i really like this thread: we all have our own perception of shipping and ships, so sometimes seeing a ship through the eyes of another fan is really interesting

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

You're right again (couldn't help myself :lol: ) Which brings me to a question because I'm really curious:

To those who see Nick and Sara as having just a bro/sis relationship, why see them as such instead of seeing them as great friends? There are instances that aren't so brotherly/sisterly. But I accept that some of their interactions can be seen as just great friendship (as opposed to a romantic one).

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Lol Cofi i think i have an answer for that: actually when people reduced sara/nick relationship as a great frienship , there is always a possibility of more than friendship and i think that's why some people are reticent toward that. When they say it's a bro/sister relationship, there is no way out, no possibility of being close for thoses two, just brother and sister. Actually that's a reason one of my friend gave me when i asked her about that and somehow i understand why she meant