The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

Re: The Great Ship Debate

*laughs* okay dont throw stones at me but I've come to a realization
dont get me Wrong I dont like GSR never really have never saw the Chemistry I was always a Snicker BUT upon getting hooked on POTC I kind of notice something first of all Canon means something different to different people AND different scenes can mean different things
for example for me all the GSR scenes were nothing,no chemistry most of them had been Father Daughter in my eyes
BUT Looking back I can definetly see how it would be something more to all of you that ship GSR and I can see how tptb had tried to show us these particular scenes as forshadowing
(for me and the whole POTC thing well I'm obviously a J/E shipper and pleased with the sudden turn of events to the recent movie but this is neither the time or the place)

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Obviously, people can view different scenes in different ways. If you like the pairing, you're more likely to read into it than soembody else that might try to write it off ad freindship. I'm not in denial about GSR, I know it exists and it's the ship the writers want to follow, but no amount of insight or shoving it down our throats can make up for lack of chemistry. A good chemistry should be obvious enough that nobody can honestly deny it exists.

Did that make sense?

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

This is the first time I’ve posted on the shipper thread since I’m not a shipper, but I just had to share my views on the various relationships that Grissom could experience (I don’t much care one way or the other about other relationships in the LV series and I don't watch Miami nor NY). Two warnings though: GSR is definitely not my cup of tea, and it’s gonna be a very long post! So here we go:

1: Chemistry

Between Grissom and Catherine, the chemistry I see is one of a great friendship that has developed over the years. Cath and Gil are comfortable with each other, they share some of their secrets, they’re not afraid to tell each other exactly what they’re thinking and they’re honest with each other. He can also flirt with her because he knows she’ll be flattered by it and will not take his flirting as a “declaration of love”. There’s a twinkle in his eyes when he smiles and looks at her and his smiles to her are genuine. Imho, she’s also the only one he could have talked to about her “tush” in that unforgettable moment! Furthermore, Cath is the only one apart from Brass to call him by his first name, which implies a great deal of familiarity.

Between Grissom and Lady H., there was an instant physical attraction. He really is “into her” from the very first moment. She lives in a completely different world from his and, being a man who loves learning and discovering new things, he is obviously fascinated by her lifestyle and, of course, by her “physical attributes”. Which man in his right mind wouldn’t be! By talking with her later, he discovered that she was also very intelligent, which attracted him even more. Intelligence really is a great turn on. He took every opportunity to be with her and, most of all, he “lost his balance”… We all know what that means. With her, he’s not afraid to show his sensitive side. With her, he really shows how sensual he can be.

Now to Grissom and Sara. They met at a seminar he was giving some time before the Pilot, she being the “student” and he the “professor”. We don’t know if something happened between them at that time, but I seriously doubt it. I heard his comment about having been interested in beauty “after he met her”, but I take that as something he might have said to Catherine or any other beautiful woman in the lab. He never invited her to have dinner with him as he did with Sofia; he rejected every invitation she made when the two of them would have been alone. He even recoils and frowns when she touches his face during an investigation! You never do that when someone you love touches you… Yes, he took her home after he’d been called to the police station, but he would have done that for any of his CSIs. Yes, he went to her place, but he wanted an explanation for her behaviour towards Catherine and Ecklie. He took her hand at that time to comfort her as he would have done for any woman he felt affection for. He likes her but he doesn’t love her.

2: Equality

Grissom sees Cath as his equal. He is on Catherine’s side when the time comes for her appointment as shift supervisor. He knows she can do the job as well as he can, he shows confidence in her abilities and actively supports her application with Ecklie.

Grissom also considers Lady H. to be his equal. She’s very self confident and is a very successful businesswoman, as she has proven with the Dominion.

Sara is definitely not equal to Grissom. Their relationship started as “student” and “professor”, as I stated earlier, and it continues on the same footing, them being “boss” and “employee”. One quote, given in a very stern voice, sums it up for me: “I hand out the assignments, Sara, this is not a negociation.”

3: Independence and respect

Catherine and Heather don’t need anybody’s approval to do their own thing. Catherine is in charge of her family and her love life, just as much as Heather is in charge of the Dominion and her own love life. They show self respect and don’t take crap from anybody, including Grissom.

On the other hand, I see Sara pursuing Grissom during 6 years and being rejected every time she makes advances to him, which for me screams “emotional dependency” and “no self respect” on her part. And yet, she keeps coming back, even after hearing his monologue at the end of Butterflied:

“It's sad, isn't it, doc? Guys like us. Couple of middle-aged men who've allowed their work to consume their lives. The only time we ever touch other people is when we're wearing our latex gloves. We wake up one day and realize that for fifty years we haven't really lived at all. But then, all of a sudden ... we get a second chance. Somebody young and beautiful shows up. Somebody ... we could care about. She offers us a new life with her ... but we have a big decision to make, right? Because we have to risk everything we've worked for in order to have her. I couldn't do it ...”

Yes, he says he “could care about” her. You can certainly care about somebody without being in love with that person. He also plainly says he could never risk everything for her, which for me indicates that she really should get on with her life and stop believing in fairy tales.

***

As you could see by reading my very long post, I think that Catherine is a very good and faithful friend for him and Lady Heather could very well be his soul mate. As for Sara, I don’t see her bringing anything to him except for awkwardness, unease and problems.

So, where are we now? We’re at the end of the sixth season, after a finale that left a bitter taste in my mouth, a finale that contradicts everything we’ve seen during the first 5 years of the series. What happened? Is Grissom in his mid-life crisis? Is it his andropause kicking in? Or is it, as others have written elsewhere, only a dream? I absolutely don’t know.

The only thing I do know is that I don’t buy it for a minute. “Secret romance that has been going on for a while”? TPTB, please give me a break and go back to the first seasons. Go back and watch how the characters have been portrayed when there was continuity in the series. Go back and learn to know and love the characters as Quentin Tarantino proved he knew and loved them in Grave Danger.

This way, your ratings will stop dropping and CSI will go back to its rightful place: the number 1 series on television.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well, Sara's cautious look at Grissom in Way to Go when she asked about corsettes and his significant look said to me, at least, that she's heard the rumors and he knows that she has.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

OMG, GGgirl1, I totally agree. I think I have said the same thing a few posts back.
And yes, didn't we all watch Butterflied, and Committed, and Nesting Dolls? Granted like someone else said, when we want a pair together we look for ANYTHING to put them together, I think that is to be said for GSR. And for them "being together" for a while, it was not Catherine who said in BITE ME, lovers and co-workers, not a good relationship, did not someone at CSI write those lines? yet we are to believe that Grissom and Sara are to pursue just that?
I think I'll stop here for fear of a migrain

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Hmmm...I thought that as well...But in my mind that would mean that he was sorta sharing a "private inside joke" with himself at Sara's expense...Yet again...Which, if that's true, would be pretty damned cruel, no?...And yet one more reason for me to think "GSR? Where???"...Cuz if she only knows about LH through rumour & innuendo, WHY?...Shouldn't "the man in her life" have shared at least that with her?...OK, mebbe not disclose every gal he's been involved with, but definitely LH...Why?...Simply because the entire lab knows there was something with Griss & LH...even if they don't know details...So, he's so "in love" that he'd expose Sara to humiliation & ridicule by everyone else knowing at least that LH exists, but not Sara?...Hmmm...

Seems that'd have been one of the first thing he mentioned, to protect her feelings...Imagine the speculation and stares and whispers she'd have to withstand otherwise...

hhunter, its not the "mentor/student" or "older man/younger woman" or "boss/employee" stuff that bothers me...Its the "Weak boring drab basketcase gal gets the Alpha guy" scenario...Sara usedta be a strong vibrant lovely funny character...Why did TPTB feel the need to destroy her so badly, THEN she gets the guy?...What?...A strong vibrant lovely funny gal shouldn't get the Alpha guy? Doh

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Excellent post GGgirl1, I couldn't have said it better myself. I would like to see some GSR's shipper trying to show their side of the arguement, because some very good points have been laid out here.

I will never undertsand the logic of the GSR 'secret' romance. It's all wrong. If that's the way TPTB wanted to do it, why didn't they plan it from the beginning to make sure that we didn't have so many questions to do with continuity and the like. Crap, I didn't want to get into this again, it infuriates me

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Thank you girls for your comments! I tried to make my post as objective as possible...

Maybe they couldn't plan it from the beginning because they did not know where they were going at that time. However, they could certainly have lead us there gradually, using a bit of continuity and forethought, instead of throwing it on us like a ton of bricks. In my opinion, shipping should never have occurred on this series. You know the phrase "less is more"? The writers used this concept when they wrote Lady Heather's Box, and that's why it worked.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I agree, GreatTyrant - but I thought his look was more sort of... teasing? I mean, after all, Sara flirted with Mikey at the wedding while they were supposedly going out. She dated Hank for almost a year when he's seen LH three times entirely and may have slept with her once?

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

And why do you think she brings him awkwardness, unease and problems? He can get hurt by her. It actually matters to him what she thinks. He can't get hurt by Catherine, he never was. Sara gives him a feeling which he is caught off guard by; a feeling of love. A man like Grissom certainly does not know how to handle this.

I'd rather say that Grissom got out of his mid-life crisis. When his hearing problem escalated, he pushed everyone away. Especially Sara. This was not the moment for him to let someone enter into his life.

From what I have read in your post, GGirl1, I think that we both have different interpretations of the Grissom character. When I see him pushing Sara away, I see that it's because he loves her. When you see him pushing her away, you think that he's just treating her like crap. But why would he treat her that way, and not other people? This can only mean that Sara is special to him. She is not like other people. She actually means something to Grissom.

One of the most fascinating aspects of the Grissom/Sara relationship for me, is the idea of two socially awkward people getting into a relationship. Them being in a relationship with someone else is one thing, but getting into a relationship with someone that is also awkward...beautiful. Truly fascinating.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

This is one argument I've never understood: the "Sara/Catherine doesn't judge/loves him more/understands him better" one.

They have both judged him. They've both called him an emotionally void shut-in. They've questioned him when he's put them on cases they don't want. They've both told him they want to be promoted... and yet neither side wants to admit that really, when it comes to that stuff, Catherine and Sara are on even footing.

I think that Grissom and Sara have more in common. They haven't known each other as long, their friendship wasn't as close, but at the end of the day when Grissom and Sara want to curl up with a book or talk about a case, Catherine wants to go out to the bar.

And she has a daughter, which means she's at a very different place with her career and her life than either of them are. That sort of thing, to me, transcends the age problem, so in that way Sara and Grissom's 15-year-gap is not as pronounced as the life gap between parenthood and the lack thereof.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I realize that GSR is based on the belief that both Grissom & Sara are "drawn to each other & belong together cuz its so beautiful to watch the dance of her approaching & him retreating & he does that because she's the only one who can hurt him", but...Mebbe that's why I don't get it...Love isn't a constant series of those things for me...If I approach & a guy retreats, guess what?...I figure he's "just not that into me"...I don't take it as an invitation to continue...But that's me...

I could buy that if during the same time period he hadn't turned Sara down yet again, but still gone out on a "date" with someone we don't know but he told Brass (black leather jacket, anyone?), flirted with several other women, asked Sofia out and had a liason with Lady Heather...He made the time to do what he wanted to...If he was so "shut down" I would've understood that, but not while he's ignoring Sara and acknowledging other women...Makes no sense to me...

He's just not that into her...<shrugs>

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Can someone quote the black leather jacket part for me? In what episode was that? Asking Sofia out...I wonder if he actually asked her out. They just had dinner. Sara and Nick had dinner, Warrick and Nick had dinner. Everyone has dinner. When Sara asked Grissom out to dinner, it was obvious that she was intersted in him. It wasn't supposed to be just dinner.
And about the liaison with Lady Heather. If you are talking about PoTTR. There was no romance in that at all. I do like the Grissom/Lady Heater story though, and I was very dissapointed by PoTTR. I expected at least some talk about 'them'.

I completely agree. Grissom and Catherine are amazing friends, I love to see them together. But I can't find any evidence that someone would be interested in being more than friends, and I feel like they both know very well that something like that would never work. They are just too different. Catherine needs an adventurous guy. Grissom needs someone to talk about bugs. I'm in favor of the 'opposites attract' line a lot of times, but it doesn't work in this case. But yeah, they are great friends.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Even the "I missed your tush" line is the kind of forward, but joking thing a friend would say to catch you off guard (to get you to choke on your drink, maybe?). I think that Grissom has always shown to be some what fumbling with women, so I don't buy that with all other women he's been shown to have dated or been with -

The Lab Tech in the pilot, who pretty much called his idea for a date laughable

Teri Miller who dumped him because his work came first and then shut him down when he tried to make it up to her

Lady Heather who likewise dumped him because his work came first, and... well, just see: Teri Miller.

And now Sara - who he's always been awkward and fumbling around, and usually says the wrong thing.

So I don't get how suddenly, magically with Catherine he's suddenly Rico Suave. It speaks more and more of two people who are close friends and like to flirt now and then.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I joined in certain shipps, but i would like to make a comment and ask a question as an objective observer (as much as i can). So there it goes:
I know GSR fans have more "signs" to interpret, given Grissom-Sara interaction and back and forth flirtation for 6 Seasons, as well as the final WTG scenes provide them with more tangible 'evidence' for a romatic relationship (Grissom-Cath shippers have some signs to rely upon as well- great analysis on G&C can be found in previous posts). But what is the basis of the Sofia & Grissom ship besides his looking at her in Formalities and the "dinner invitation"? I've missed some epies in S6 so perhaps there are some signs there to support the ship...What are they?

I know some times we join ships in hope that the writers will provide some more stuff to back our hopes up, and that's what the whole shipping idea is partly about anyways!! Is this the case for Grissom & Sofia ship (because this is definitely the case for the Vartllows ship!! )