On Love Triangles (chock full of *MAJOR SPOILERS*)

[Speedslady]

I totally agree with you PrettyEyes. It's just something that we are all going to have to wait and see.

Personally (this is just me) if someone I liked and was into me (especially if they felt the same way) started pushing me away I'd want answers to the why.

Of course that doesn't make for good tv either. LOL

 

[Faylinn]

It's just something that we are all going to have to wait and see.

Yes, I think we all agree that we won't know until they air the episode. But we're still going to speculate.

Personally (this is just me) if someone I liked and was into me (especially if they felt the same way) started pushing me away I'd want answers to the why.

Well, yeah, of course, anybody would want answers--and Danny has tried to find out. Multiple times.

Second: We've all discussed spoilers before, then discover some of the minute spoiler details have been left on the cutting room floor when the episodes air. Let's wait and see what happens.

The thing is--yes, they might cut out this scene, for story or time or various other reasons. And I'm sure that some people will dance in the streets and assume that it's a sign that D/L "love" is true and will conquer everything including logic. However, the fact remains in any case that this scene was included to begin with. What that tells me is that the writers have the idea in their heads. Whatever their reasons for writing it, or whatever their reasons for cutting it if they do, this scene between Danny and Angell was written.

I don't think it's safe to assume that D/L is in any way a sure thing because of past storylines or fan reaction--plans change, opinions change, who knows what happens behind the scenes of a show like this? All I know for sure is that the writers seemed to harp on the D/L thing in season 2, and when they actually took it somewhere in season 3, it was to a standstill, followed by a whole lot of nothing. Yes, Anna is pregnant, and while her screentime has been limited, it shouldn't prevent the writers from giving her a storyline. They've managed to include this grisly past on the show, and if the D/L thing was as important as some people assume or believe, then surely they could have given them a few scenes? Talking in the lab, calling on the phone, blah blah blah and all that jazz. But instead, they chose to pretty much drop it (for 10 episodes, almost half of the season), and I find that interesting.

But that's just me, of course.

 

[dutch_treat]

^If they actually cut out this scene I will most definitely be dancing in the streets ; not so much because of D/L but simply because I still very much dislike love triangles.

If Danny and Angell get involved for a while and he goes back to Lindsay when she returns I'd feel so sorry for Angell because she doesn't deserve that and if D/A get together and stay together after Lindsay returns I'd feel sad for her. She will hopefully have closed the book on her past and just when she's ready to move on she'll get hurt again

And I'm not ignoring the fact that she caused all the hurt and misunderstanding herself, but at this moment I think the person who hates Lindsay the most IS Lindsay. She does not do all the things she does intentionally; she wants to be happy, but something is preventing that.

Because of all the spoilers I've been looking for any Danny/Angell hints in last week's ep, but I didn't see any (could be me though). So I wonder when they came up with the idea.

I don't think it's safe to assume that D/L is in any way a sure thing because of past storylines or fan reaction.....they chose to pretty much drop it (for 10 episodes, almost half of the season), and I find that interesting.

Of course D/L is not a sure thing (yet) and I do agree that it's quite interesting that we haven't seen any interaction for -is it really- 10 ep's But I still believe that that has everything to do with Anna's pregnancy. The 'dark past' has been in the characters description from the beginning and they're now using that to explain her absence for a few ep's. And giving two storylines to a character from which you don't know if the actress is able to shoot as many scenes as you like would've not been a wise move. So I think they've put the D/L on hold in LRC where they also (re)started the 'secret' story, only to pick up on the D/L again once Lindsay returns.

One can only hope...

 

[Top41]

1CSIMfan said:
Since Lindsay said she only wanted their contact to be office realted I don't really think it's being presumptuous to think all non-related work contact has been cut off. I'm sure that if they went out as a group, she wouldn't ignore him. She made it clear she had to work things out herself. When he told her he'd be there if she needed him, she kept on walking and never even aknowledging that he said anything.

Agreed. The writers have been purposefully been keeping them apart--aside from "Oedipus Hex," they haven't really worked together, and I think the only other ep they shared scenes in was "Raising Shane." I think it's safe to say that Danny is giving her the space/time she needed to work out her issues.

As for Danny/Angell, it will either be a love triangle or it's going to replace D/L. I'm hoping for the latter since I don't see any chemistry between Danny and Lindsay whatsoever. "Love Run Cold" made Lindsay look like a bitch and Danny look like a doormat. That doesn't help either character.

Danny and Angell have a flirty back and forth--I'm curious to see where that's going to go (if anywhere--as others have mentioned, scenes do get cut...).

 

[kinkapoodles]

^^Wasn't it always their intention to reveal Lindsay's secret in Season 3?? Also, wasn't it way back in the summer that Zuiker said the D/L stuff would be over by the 4th episode? Yeah, they did mention a mid season thing but it was very vague. It could have been something between them or it could have been something else that affected them (like Danny/Angell) or they could have scrapped that whole idea entirely.

It just baffles me that so many people say D/L are canon when there has been no indication at all that they are. I believe DL has been sacrificed for Mac and Peyton. I also don't think that Anna's pregnancy called for an entire re-write of season 3 with the only difference maybe being that Lindsay wouldn't have been going back to Montana to deal with her problems. If they wanted to go ahead with the D/L thing, it's like Fay said, they could have done it anyway.

If they actually cut out this scene I will most definitely be dancing in the streets ; not so much because of D/L but simply because I still very much dislike love triangles.

I, for one, will be dancing in the streets if they leave that scene in. That scene, if left as is, is not as spectacular as everyone thinks. It's not so much physical (unless they change that :devil as it is in the actions and looks of the characters.

I don't like love triangles either and I especially don't like them on crime dramas. If they decide to show something between Danny and Angell then I hope they don't make it a "I'll do this while Lindsay is gone" thing. Lindsay has hurt Danny a lot in the last few months and if all of her pushing him away results in him turning to Angell, then that's Lindsay's loss and her problem. If she would have just confided in Danny, things might be different but she chose to totally shut him out and act like a total ass toward him.

only to pick up on the D/L again once Lindsay returns.

IMO, one of the worst mistakes they could make.

Because of all the spoilers I've been looking for any Danny/Angell hints in last week's ep, but I didn't see any (could be me though). So I wonder when they came up with the idea.

Until the spoilers came out for episode 16, there were no hints of Danny/Angell. Now, we know that Danny and Angell work together in episode 15 (I found nothing in my spoiler sources about Angell even being there) so maybe something happens in that episode or maybe (if they leave it in) nothing actually happens until episode 16.

One other thing, maybe TPTB like how the relationship thing is going with Mac/Peyton because Peyton is only a recurring character. We know they are together but the shippy moments are few and far between (they way they should be). Since Angell is a recurring character as well, maybe TPTB think it will work best that way (that and the fact that Danny/Angell have way more chemistry than D/L ever has). IMO, Danny and Lindsay working together and being in a relationship would put a strain on the show unless they do like Vegas and rarely put them in any scenes together (that would be nice too).

Since we haven't found out all the details about Lindsay's past, how do we know what she actually left behind in Montana? Maybe there's a boyfriend she fled from in Montana (I'm not talking about a boyfriend from back when the murders happened) when things got too serious. Maybe she was under the impression that starting over in NY would make her past disappear. What I'm getting at is that maybe Lindsay comes back from Montana and only wants to have a friendship/work relationship with Danny. If he's moved on with Angell then maybe she will be happy for him but if she came back with the intention of moving forward with Danny and he is in a relationship with Angell, then we get the dreaded triangle.

I just don't want to see Danny being Lindsay's doormat any longer.

ETA: Top, you posted while I was typing. I need to make shorter posts.

 

[Top41]

1CSIMfan said:
It just baffles me that so many people say D/L are canon when there has been no indication at all that they are. I believe DL has been sacrificed for Mac and Peyton. I also don't think that Anna's pregnancy called for an entire re-write of season 3 with the only difference maybe being that Lindsay wouldn't have been going back to Montana to deal with her problems. If they wanted to go ahead with the D/L thing, it's like Fay said, they could have done it anyway.

The only time a pairing between two characters is canon is if they're actually in a relationship. Grissom and Sara from CSI are the only two regulars in a relationship on a CSI show. I guess the Delko/Natalia fling from Miami is canon (though hopefully done), and Mac and Peyton are of course canon.

I, for one, will be dancing in the streets if they leave that scene in. That scene, if left as is, is not as spectacular as everyone thinks. It's not so much physical (unless they change that :devil as it is in the actions and looks of the characters.

That's what I think is so great about this scene--it relies on actual chemistry between the characters and actors. It's not some scripted "banter" that is supposed to tell us "oh, they like each other." If Carmine and Emmanuelle don't have chemistry, it won't register at all. I suspect the writers already know they do and using that to convey how they feel, which is the way it should be done. You should never need a third character to come in and say the characters like each other (a la Hammerback with D/L).

I don't like love triangles either and I especially don't like them on crime dramas. If they decide to show something between Danny and Angell then I hope they don't make it a "I'll do this while Lindsay is gone" thing. Lindsay has hurt Danny a lot in the last few months and if all of her pushing him away results in him turning to Angell, then that's Lindsay's loss and her problem. If she would have just confided in Danny, things might be different but she chose to totally shut him out and act like a total ass toward him.

Agreed. I hope it's done between Danny and Lindsay for good, but even if it isn't, we know he's not going to go running back to her when she gets back. Even if it's a love triangle, he's going to be with Angell for a while I suspect.

Until the spoilers came out for episode 16, there were no hints of Danny/Angell. Now, we know that Danny and Angell work together in episode 15 (I found nothing in my spoiler sources about Angell even being there) so maybe something happens in that episode or maybe (if they leave it in) nothing actually happens until episode 16.

It sounds like this could be a recent development. Maybe they took a look at Carmine and Emmanuelle on screen and were like, "Hey, there's chemistry here! Let's go with this." It sure beats using clumsiness as an inspiration. :lol:

One other thing, maybe TPTB like how the relationship thing is going with Mac/Peyton because Peyton is only a recurring character. We know they are together but the shippy moments are few and far between (they way they should be). Since Angell is a recurring character as well, maybe TPTB think it will work best that way (that and the fact that Danny/Angell have way more chemistry than D/L ever has). IMO, Danny and Lindsay working together and being in a relationship would put a strain on the show unless they do like Vegas and rarely put them in any scenes together (that would be nice too).

Yeah, the Mac/Peyton thing has gone along pretty well, and it could be that they want Danny in a relationship but recognize the thing with Lindsay is overblown and unrealistic, and also detracts from the characters and the story. Because Angell is recurring, they could do a lot more with Danny and Angell than they ever could with Danny and Lindsay.

I just don't want to see Danny being Lindsay's doormat any longer.

Ageed. That's the biggest disservice ever to Danny.

ETA: Top, you posted while I was typing. I need to make shorter posts.

:lol: Same here...

 

[Faylinn]

The thing about Anna being pregnant is that they didn't have to do anything big with D/L. They didn't have to have him ask her out, her stand him up, him confront her, her say 'it's not you, it's me' and ask to just do their jobs, within the span of a single episode (or two if you count the scene at the end of "Not What it Looks Like"). They could have left things the way they were in season 2. Danny and Lindsay could have worked more cases together than they have this season. I'm not saying that they should have (or would have) put the two of them in a relationship, but it's strange that they just dumped it altogether for so long. It just wasn't necessary. If they wanted her to come back after Anna's maternity leave is over and have a relationship with Danny, this probably wasn't the best way to set it up. They've only worked together for a year and a half. It's very possible for people to have feelings for each other and not actually get together for several years. *shrug*

The thing about Danny/Angell is that no, there hasn't been anything on the show so far--I don't see why there would be. Like 1CSIMfan said, the moment between them in episode 16 isn't going to be as big as everyone is assuming--it's a quick moment that is all about the non-verbal interaction (which I contrast to the D/L stuff that has all been dialogue that never sold me on the screen). I have no doubt that Carmine and Emmanuelle could pull off the scene as it was written, and even if they never mentioned it again, it would still be a great little scene. Hell, in season 1, during "Officer Blue," when I was watching the commentary they said that they'd planned something between Mac and Jane (which was pretty obvious in that episode), but that they'd decided to scrap it after it was filmed. Even though they never took the relationship anywhere, the potential was still visible in that episode.

For me, if the D/A thing isn't mentioned at all before episode 16, then that scene, if it's in there, will be just as unexpected as it's meant to be for the characters. Danny and Angell have a comfortable sort of vibe between them. They work together easily, they play off of each other well in scenes--the potential is there to develop something. And if they start something, it begins with a single scene, and just because we haven't seen that scene yet does not mean it could never exist. With Danny/Lindsay, the writers didn't wait to see if the potential existed, and the result...

In the end, we don't know that a love triangle is even in the plans for this season. We don't know that any of the characters are going to be in any kind of relationship, aside from Mac/Peyton. But if the writers insist on Danny being with someone, I'm putting my vote in for Angell. Out of 13 episodes, they've only worked together 3 times (I believe), Emmanuelle is a great actress, and she and Carmine have good onscreen chemistry.

ETA: We all write posts that are too damn long, it seems. Good post, Top. :lol:

 

[Jessica6]

Ok, I know this is random, but it was mentioned in here, so maybe not THAT random, anyway: I know what "canon" means, but why is it that "canon" means what it does? (Maybe I'm just not gettin' it or something...) Why that word?

 

[Faylinn]

It's a good question. I just don't think most of us bother to know why we use it. :lol: From what I can tell, 'canon' originally meant 'rule' or 'guideline.' It was used by the church to describe which books were officially part of the bible, etc. For our purposes, it's the stories/characters/events that have actually been on the show, and are therefore officially part of the CSI:NY-universe. *shrug* The definition is fluid. This page shows what I mean. Many aspects of canon are open to interpretation.

From my personal understanding, Danny and Lindsay having feelings for each other is 'canon' (because of what the writers have put in the dialogue), but an actual relationship between them is not. Danny asked her out, but they never went on a date. Mac and Peyton's relationship is canon because it has been established on the show that they are together.

But canon isn't limited to the romantic aspects of the show. The friendship between Mac and Stella is certainly canon, as they've known each other for more than a decade, as are the friendships between the other characters. The parts of the characters' pasts, families, etc, that we've heard about so far are also part of the 'canon.'

 

[Orison]

^ Well said, Fay. I totally agree with you.

 

[Jessica6]

:lol: Thanks Faylinn... I dont know, just the word "canon" didnt make sense to me... But I think I can see where it may have originated...

 

[Top41]

Faylinn said:
The thing about Anna being pregnant is that they didn't have to do anything big with D/L. They didn't have to have him ask her out, her stand him up, him confront her, her say 'it's not you, it's me' and ask to just do their jobs, within the span of a single episode (or two if you count the scene at the end of "Not What it Looks Like"). They could have left things the way they were in season 2. Danny and Lindsay could have worked more cases together than they have this season. I'm not saying that they should have (or would have) put the two of them in a relationship, but it's strange that they just dumped it altogether for so long. It just wasn't necessary. If they wanted her to come back after Anna's maternity leave is over and have a relationship with Danny, this probably wasn't the best way to set it up. They've only worked together for a year and a half. It's very possible for people to have feelings for each other and not actually get together for several years. *shrug*

Yeah, I think the whole Danny/Lindsay thing has been completely mishandled this season. The only time I was intrigued by the pairing was midway through season two, before we got the overkill of a scene between the two every episode, and before we got the cliched developments in "Love Run Cold." It is interesting that for all intents and purposes the whole thing has been tabled since "Love Run Cold" (or two eps later in "Oedipus Hex," take your pick). Memories are short on CSI shows, and anytime something is put to bed for as long as this plotline has been, it's usually significant.

The thing about Danny/Angell is that no, there hasn't been anything on the show so far--I don't see why there would be. Like 1CSIMfan said, the moment between them in episode 16 isn't going to be as big as everyone is assuming--it's a quick moment that is all about the non-verbal interaction (which I contrast to the D/L stuff that has all been dialogue that never sold me on the screen). I have no doubt that Carmine and Emmanuelle could pull off the scene as it was written, and even if they never mentioned it again, it would still be a great little scene. Hell, in season 1, during "Officer Blue," when I was watching the commentary they said that they'd planned something between Mac and Jane (which was pretty obvious in that episode), but that they'd decided to scrap it after it was filmed. Even though they never took the relationship anywhere, the potential was still visible in that episode.

It will be interesting to see how the scene plays out, and I think if there is something there, we'll probably see more of it. It's definitely a sound idea to wait to see if the actors have chemistry together before pairing them off.

For me, if the D/A thing isn't mentioned at all before episode 16, then that scene, if it's in there, will be just as unexpected as it's meant to be for the characters. Danny and Angell have a comfortable sort of vibe between them. They work together easily, they play off of each other well in scenes--the potential is there to develop something. And if they start something, it begins with a single scene, and just because we haven't seen that scene yet does not mean it could never exist. With Danny/Lindsay, the writers didn't wait to see if the potential existed, and the result...

...was unnatural, cliched, and completely lacking in chemistry. What I like best about this Danny/Angell pairing is that intent wasn't written into the interactions between the two characters from day one. It feels more like the writers took a look at the characters--and the actors on screen together--and saw something there.

In the end, we don't know that a love triangle is even in the plans for this season. We don't know that any of the characters are going to be in any kind of relationship, aside from Mac/Peyton. But if the writers insist on Danny being with someone, I'm putting my vote in for Angell. Out of 13 episodes, they've only worked together 3 times (I believe), Emmanuelle is a great actress, and she and Carmine have good onscreen chemistry.

Agreed. It's a hell of a lot more believable that Danny would fall for a beautiful, tough girl with a healthy sense of humor than a sour-faced, whiny unpleasant woman.

ETA: We all write posts that are too damn long, it seems. Good post, Top. :lol:

:lol: Thanks, you too!

 

[Faylinn]

It will be interesting to see how the scene plays out, and I think if there is something there, we'll probably see more of it. It's definitely a sound idea to wait to see if the actors have chemistry together before pairing them off.

What I like best about this Danny/Angell pairing is that intent wasn't written into the interactions between the two characters from day one. It feels more like the writers took a look at the characters--and the actors on screen together--and saw something there.

Exactly my point. Thanks. Even if they created the character of Angell with the intent to pair her off with someone (and that's a major if, and I'm hoping that wasn't the case, I'm just speculating ), I like that they gave the character a chance to interact with the others before attempting to pursue anything (if, indeed, that's what's going to happen).

And, of course, I can't just leave well-enough alone:

I dont know, just the word "canon" didnt make sense to me... But I think I can see where it may have originated...

I did a bit more looking. I was curious how 'canon' and 'cannon' might be related, if at all. Since I was looking on the internet, things are quite possibly incorrect.

"Cannon" comes from the Latin word canna, meaning "tube."* That makes sense, since a cannon is a large tube used to fire projectiles (or whatever, you know what I mean ).

Meanwhile, I found this interesting passage on the term 'canon':
"Canon comes to us from those prolific Greeks. They had kanna (meaning reed), which changed to kanon (meaning rule or rod), which was picked up by latin 'canon' (meaning rule or model), which was passed on to Old French 'canon' (meaning leaned), and finally to English (an accepted rule)."**

So I'm not sure how closely related the two words are, or if the development of 'canon' through Latin coincided with the Latin word canna, but the fact that a reed is hollow like a tube could be an indication. You learn something new every day, eh?

The part about the 'reed,' the original source of the word 'canon,' comes from the fact that the reed was very straight and could be used for measuring. It's not so much that things need to 'measure up' to be part of canon (let me specify that I mean for a tv show), but you can kind of see where the comparison might come from. The canon of CSI:NY is the standard or rules for the stories/characters/events. For example: Mac was a Marine, so this is part of canon, and unless you're talking about AU (Alternate Universe, for people who don't know the lingo like some of us fanfic-fiends ), the rule is that Mac used to be a Marine.

So I hope that makes things a bit more clear as to why we use the word 'canon.' (I had far too much fun looking that up. :lol

Class dismissed!

*source
**source

 

[MacsGirlMel]

There's a sort of madeup word baesd on 'canon' that's used for fanfics, fanwanks ect...'fanon'....you sometimes hear fans ask if something's canon or fanon or something like that.

 

[Jessica6]

WHOA! That's some intense research... Somebody has A LOT of time on their hands! JKS. And, Thanks, that helps!