Grade 'All in the Family'

Doesn't anyone else get tired of the constant one-upmanship thing going on here regarding Lindsay? Whenever anything positive is posted about her, someone's always gotta have the last word, that she's evil and we hate her. Geez.
I apologize if this post is rude. It just really gets to me sometimes.
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I don't see it as one upsmanship. This entire thread seems like a good discussion about the episode from all points of view. :)

This is a thread and it's all about debate. Of course it's going to go back and forth with discussion. That's the whole point. ;)

As for the pool table, I don't think it was a mistake that it was missing. Apparently, it has disappeared just like this so-called DL romance.

ETA:
The fact that she went over the line doesn't mean she's some sort of evil, cold blooded killer. She was acting on raw grief and anger, and needs help and time to come to terms with the tragedy.
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I agree. If my child had died that way, I couldn't say for sure that I wouldn't do the exact same thing Rikki did. I don't think she intended to kill Ollie but it must have felt great pointing that gun at him knowing that right at that moment, she controlled whether or not he lived or died. For me, that would be a start.
 
chabib86 said:
Doesn't anyone else get tired of the constant one-upmanship thing going on here regarding Lindsay? Whenever anything positive is posted about her, someone's always gotta have the last word, that she's evil and we hate her. Geez.
I apologize if this post is rude. It just really gets to me sometimes.
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It is a discussion forum, and for better or worse, Lindsay is a lightning rod character. Some love her, some hate her and everyone seems to talk about her.

rhythmbutterfly said:
Just wanted to comment on a couple of things.

First of all, Carmine's delivery of his last line left me physically startled. Like I jumped a little bit and my jaw dropped open. I've been trying to pinpoint why it affected me like that, and I think it was just the lack of emotion. Here's this character whose emotion oozes out of every pore on a normal day. He bitches, whines, yells, gets sarcastic, pleads, looks at the floor when he gets yelled at, cries, makes that weird grimace-face when he's upset, etc. But that one word, "how," had none of that. No pleading, no histrionics, no sexy Staten Island accent, no voice inflection of any kind. Just the word. And that was cool. I'm much more of a Danny fan than a Carmine fan, but I liked that choice from him.
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You really hit the nail on the head with that assessment. Throughout the entire episode, Danny is all hand-wringing, teary-eyed melodrama, and that's partially why his last lines hit like a ton of bricks--they're so calm and yet so hopeless. Danny isn't ever going to get over Ruben's death. And yes, Carmine's performance, from his delivery of that line to his wild emotional scenes through the rest of the episode, was amazing.

The second thing is, how long have Danny and Flack been friends? I, like many others, get the vibe that Flack feels the need to take care of Danny. I almost think they must have been friends since childhood or something. Flack really goes above and beyond the normal parameters of friendship in this episode, even potentially risking his job by letting Danny bring Rikki in himself. What makes Flack feel this strongly about Danny?
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That's a good question and honestly, I think if Danny were a female character, we'd all be dead sure Flack was in love with Danny. The way he goes out of his way over and over to take care of Danny, the way he seems to want that responsibility suggests love of some sort at the very least. But we know CBS doesn't swing that way ;) so we can call it a brotherly sort of love I suppose.

It would be really interesting to find out they had some sort of connection in childhood--Flack being the son of a cop and Danny being the son of someone with mob ties/under surveillance--but until we see something on screen, we can only guess.
 
Top41 said:

It is a discussion forum, and for better or worse, Lindsay is a lightning rod character. Some love her, some hate her and everyone seems to talk about her.
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True. I find it interesting that in the episode (I forget the title) where Lindsay backed out of talking to the mother, and Danny got slapped, that so many people went on and on about how unprofessional she was, shirking her duty etc. I didn't see the episode when it originally aired, but when I saw the rerun, imagine my surprise to find that at the end of the episode, she did suck it up and went to the mother, showing her the video the daughter made. No one seemed to mention that.

So here we have Danny, let's see, not showing up for work, not reporting his gun being stolen etc., etc. and there don't seem to be too many comments complaining about his unprofessionalism. Walking to work this morning I was wondering about it (the batteries on my MP3 were dead, so I had time to consider this critical matter ;) ) There may be some who say it is because Lindsay is an unsympathetic character and Danny is not, and there is certainly something to that. But I also think that the angst that led to Lindsay's unprofessional behaviour was not well communicated, particularly because it was something that happened in the somewhat distant past, and the audience was not really privy to what it was. But we, as an audience have been with Danny for every step of his situation, the pain of which is still very raw, as it was a recent event. I think even the people who really like Lindsay have to admit that Danny's situation and his resulting inappropriate behaviour is much easier to understand than Lindsay's ever was. We are totally on board with what's happening with him. With Lindsay it was a bunch of cryptic reactions, followed by a few minutes of testimony at the trial to explain what she went through. The end. The writers did a much better job with this story line which no doubt made it easier for all the actors to hit it out of the park (as someone else mentioned, the actress playing Ricki did a great job too).

Interesting how the writers can get some things so right and other things - well not so much. It isn't just as if Lindsay and Danny never had that, err moment, but it's as if she never went through any trauma either. It's a little weird. Like Flack's near death event that never comes up again. Oh well. As others have mentioned, it seems like this is something Danny will never get over and I hope that there is some continuity with that. But if Lindsay can get over several of her friends being gunned down...
 
LateToTheGame said:
True. I find it interesting that in the episode (I forget the title) where Lindsay backed out of talking to the mother, and Danny got slapped, that so many people went on and on about how unprofessional she was, shirking her duty etc. I didn't see the episode when it originally aired, but when I saw the rerun, imagine my surprise to find that at the end of the episode, she did suck it up and went to the mother, showing her the video the daughter made. No one seemed to mention that.
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I think there would have been more sympathy for her if she'd stepped in when she saw Danny get slapped. Instead, she sat there and watched him do the hard part, and then later decided it was actually part of her job to talk to the grieving mother...after the worst was over. It didn't come across as very noble to me, but I'm sure others feel differently.

So here we have Danny, let's see, not showing up for work, not reporting his gun being stolen etc., etc. and there don't seem to be too many comments complaining about his unprofessionalism.
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He was definitely unprofessional, and a real brat to Flack. I think part of the reason there's a little more sympathy for him is because he was doing it to help someone else, not just because he couldn't deal with his personal problems. He could have gone to work and reported Rikki's theft of his gun, but he didn't want to do that. He wanted to keep her from getting into any trouble, and also to stop her from doing something that would land her in jail for the rest of her life, or worse. So I think it's understandable he got cut some slack. If Lindsay ever cut work to help someone else, I'm sure there'd be sympathy for her, too. No one's calling her a dirty liar for telling Mac Danny was sick, either. ;)

Walking to work this morning I was wondering about it (the batteries on my MP3 were dead, so I had time to consider this critical matter ;) ) There may be some who say it is because Lindsay is an unsympathetic character and Danny is not, and there is certainly something to that. But I also think that the angst that led to Lindsay's unprofessional behaviour was not well communicated, particularly because it was something that happened in the somewhat distant past, and the audience was not really privy to what it was. But we, as an audience have been with Danny for every step of his situation, the pain of which is still very raw, as it was a recent event. I think even the people who really like Lindsay have to admit that Danny's situation and his resulting inappropriate behaviour is much easier to understand than Lindsay's ever was. We are totally on board with what's happening with him. With Lindsay it was a bunch of cryptic reactions, followed by a few minutes of testimony at the trial to explain what she went through. The end. The writers did a much better job with this story line which no doubt made it easier for all the actors to hit it out of the park (as someone else mentioned, the actress playing Ricki did a great job too).
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I definitely agree that difficulty sympathizing with Lindsay comes from a combination of the writing and acting. We didn't really experience her past the way we have with Danny's struggle with Ruben's death.

Interesting how the writers can get some things so right and other things - well not so much. It isn't just as if Lindsay and Danny never had that, err moment, but it's as if she never went through any trauma either. It's a little weird. Like Flack's near death event that never comes up again. Oh well. As others have mentioned, it seems like this is something Danny will never get over and I hope that there is some continuity with that. But if Lindsay can get over several of her friends being gunned down...
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I think it's a little different. Lindsay wasn't responsible for the death of her friends. She may have survivor's guilt, but she didn't do anything that led to their deaths. Danny feels he did in Ruben's case.
 
chabib86 said:
Doesn't anyone else get tired of the constant one-upmanship thing going on here regarding Lindsay? Whenever anything positive is posted about her, someone's always gotta have the last word, that she's evil and we hate her. Geez.
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If you'll read through this whole thread, you'll see plenty of back and forth about whether Danny's actions were good or bad, selfish or not, etc--it's leading to interesting discussion and debate, but I have yet to see an argument or complaint about what's actually being said. Why does every negative comment about Lindsay have to be countered with a complaint that people are being negative? :rolleyes: People are going to come in here and say whatever they feel, regardless of what the person before them said. The point of this thread is to express opinions, not count out how many 'positive' and 'negative' things are said to keep them from getting out of balance.

I wrote out some comments about the episode that I need to type up, and I also need to respond to some of the great posts in here. However, I need to go to bed, and it'll have to wait until tomorrow. :p

However, I think when comparing Danny and Lindsay's actions regarding their personal behaviors, it's important to note that Danny didn't let his grief keep him from working ("Happily Never After", for example), and when he left, it was because Rikki had taken his gun and was ultimately putting herself in danger. He didn't shirk his duties because he couldn't deal with his job while dealing with his personal s*it. And I think it is safe to say that more leeway is being given to Danny--but considering that this grief has not only been shown to us from the beginning, but also because it's happening NOW, not in the past, it's definitely more believable than the half-ass Lindsay storyline and making fans come up with speculation and assumption about her actions (PTSD, etc).

ETA: I mentioned this in another thread and thought I'd bring it here for discussion as well.

Danny definitely has his selfish moments, and I'm not saying that this episode didn't show any of them--however, I think a lot of his 'mind your own business' crap might have been in response to his feeling that (in this particular case) it's not so much that Don is a great friend, but rather that Don doesn't think he can handle it. Danny feels responsible and wants to make things right and fix his own mistakes--but here comes Don telling him what to do and how to act, and Danny might feel less like he should be grateful for Don's friendship and more like 'I wish he'd let me handle my own s*it, I'm not as incompetent as people think I am'...

How many guys want their best friend (or any friend) to constantly swoop to their rescue?

Plus, the whole situation was a continuation of Danny's cock-up, and he might be uncomfortable with people he knows and trusts seeing what kind of trouble he's responsible for--I don't think Danny handles it well when someone he respects looks down on him, and if Don is seeing everything that's going on (and blames Danny for it), he might look down on him for screwing up yet again (not to mention if Mac found out, which he surely would if Danny went to the police--maybe he thought he could get the situation under control instead of having to bring shame on himself like that). Is it wise? Mature? Reasonable? Possibly not, but I like the fact that Danny is a three-dimensional character with flaws--and I know that makes him thoroughly annoying at times (which I think I also like). :p
 
I really like the term "Brat" used to describe what he was because he was like a child in the way he acted I felt it was typical almost a male response of I can deal with this on my own I don't want or need anyones help. I just kind of think that Flack deserves at least a Thank You from Danny just to show that he was happy he interfered.
 
Top41 said:
It would be really interesting to find out they had some sort of connection in childhood--Flack being the son of a cop and Danny being the son of someone with mob ties/under surveillance--but until we see something on screen, we can only guess.
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Now that is an interesting thought, that I would love to see expanded on. Hmm...
 
GypsyQueen said:
Still this was a really nice episode although it's a little worrying that just about everyone resorts to murder or attempted murder to deal with grief in the CSI world. I mean Riki seemed like such a nice person and I know the incredible grief she much be going through, but to go from being a mother to actually being willing to commit murder, even going so far as to steal a neighbour's gun? It just makes you wonder you know?
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Completely agree with you here to a point. I don't believe in a life for a life. I think those who take a life get the easy way out when they are taken out of this world too early (does that make any sense at all? Never mind, I confuse me all the time :))

Anyway, up until 6 years ago I could NEVER imagine taking somones life for killing my child. I'd hate them, I'd want them punished beyond belief but I would not sully my child's name by becoming a killer. However, 6 years ago I became a mum and I'll tell you this. There is NO stronger bond than that of a parent and child. If my wee girl was taken from me then I would hunt the bugger down and make them pay. Yes indeed, I am NOT one of those mothers that you want to piss of during a PTA meeting :D I'm kdding about the PTA (although I wouldn't put it past some of them!) but I'm serious about my daughter. Our family have suffered terribly at the hands of ruthless bastards recently and the police have failed to bring them to justice everytime. For this reason, I think I can see where Ricki is coming from. Her child's death wasn't avenged, so she HAD to do it herself. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying 'I get it'

And now I've done another essay post, I'm sure you guys more than get it. Sorry about that. I promised Natty on here that I'd get my husband to hit me in the arse with a traquilizer dart everytime I exceed 200 words, if he were here right now, then I'm sure that I would currently be sporting 5 of the buggers... it's not like he could miss the target :)

Sorry, wee bit of (BAD!!) humour on an otherwise very depressing topic. Kudos to you guys for airing your views.
 
Our family have suffered terribly at the hands of ruthless bastards recently and the police have failed to bring them to justice everytime. For this reason, I think I can see where Ricki is coming from. Her child's death wasn't avenged, so she HAD to do it herself. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying 'I get it'
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Sorry to hear about that hairy0haggis. Televison makes cops look like they could catch every killer out there. So was Ruben's death put down as accidental then? THey never really arrested any one for it and never showed or mentioned that woman that actually shot the kid. What was her name? Lucy? I was surprised that RIkki put down the gun really fast.
 
Faylinn said:
ETA:
Danny definitely has his selfish moments, and I'm not saying that this episode didn't show any of them--however, I think a lot of his 'mind your own business' crap might have been in response to his feeling that (in this particular case) it's not so much that Don is a great friend, but rather that Don doesn't think he can handle it. Danny feels responsible and wants to make things right and fix his own mistakes--but here comes Don telling him what to do and how to act, and Danny might feel less like he should be grateful for Don's friendship and more like 'I wish he'd let me handle my own s*it, I'm not as incompetent as people think I am'...

How many guys want their best friend (or any friend) to constantly swoop to their rescue?

Plus, the whole situation was a continuation of Danny's cock-up, and he might be uncomfortable with people he knows and trusts seeing what kind of trouble he's responsible for--I don't think Danny handles it well when someone he respects looks down on him, and if Don is seeing everything that's going on (and blames Danny for it), he might look down on him for screwing up yet again (not to mention if Mac found out, which he surely would if Danny went to the police--maybe he thought he could get the situation under control instead of having to bring shame on himself like that). Is it wise? Mature? Reasonable? Possibly not, but I like the fact that Danny is a three-dimensional character with flaws--and I know that makes him thoroughly annoying at times (which I think I also like). :p
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That's a very good point, Fay. It makes sense that Danny would think that way based on his past and more recent issues he's faced at work. He definitely wants those he respects to be proud of him. Plus I agree that not wanting a friend to step in and help is a very "guy" thing to do, generally speaking.

P.S. Welcome back! btw. :)
 
Faylinn said:
However, I think when comparing Danny and Lindsay's actions regarding their personal behaviors, it's important to note that Danny didn't let his grief keep him from working ("Happily Never After", for example), and when he left, it was because Rikki had taken his gun and was ultimately putting herself in danger. He didn't shirk his duties because he couldn't deal with his job while dealing with his personal s*it. And I think it is safe to say that more leeway is being given to Danny--but considering that this grief has not only been shown to us from the beginning, but also because it's happening NOW, not in the past, it's definitely more believable than the half-ass Lindsay storyline and making fans come up with speculation and assumption about her actions (PTSD, etc).
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Agreed. Danny wasn't so much dealing with his shit as he was trying to keep someone he cared about from making a big, big mistake. His heart was in the right place even if his actions weren't by the book, and well, once again Super!Flack swooped in to rescue him so he ended up doing the right thing in the end. ;) But yes, this storyline with Danny has progressed realistically and in a compelling way, which wasn't true of Lindsay and her deep, dark secret.

Danny definitely has his selfish moments, and I'm not saying that this episode didn't show any of them--however, I think a lot of his 'mind your own business' crap might have been in response to his feeling that (in this particular case) it's not so much that Don is a great friend, but rather that Don doesn't think he can handle it. Danny feels responsible and wants to make things right and fix his own mistakes--but here comes Don telling him what to do and how to act, and Danny might feel less like he should be grateful for Don's friendship and more like 'I wish he'd let me handle my own s*it, I'm not as incompetent as people think I am'...
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I think Flack does treat Danny like a child sometimes, and looks at him as someone who needs to be taken care of. Contrast the way Flack was with Danny in "On the Job" or RDSD or this episode with the way he was with Stella in "All Access." Flack tries to placate Danny in the first ep and in the other two he took charge with Danny. In "All Access," Flack treated Stella like an equal--he wouldn't dare do otherwise. So I see the argument that Danny was a little frustrated at being told what to do. Even Danny know Flack was right, though.

How many guys want their best friend (or any friend) to constantly swoop to their rescue?
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That's kind of always how it goes with them, with Flack always being the rescuer and Danny the one in distress.

Plus, the whole situation was a continuation of Danny's cock-up, and he might be uncomfortable with people he knows and trusts seeing what kind of trouble he's responsible for--I don't think Danny handles it well when someone he respects looks down on him, and if Don is seeing everything that's going on (and blames Danny for it), he might look down on him for screwing up yet again (not to mention if Mac found out, which he surely would if Danny went to the police--maybe he thought he could get the situation under control instead of having to bring shame on himself like that). Is it wise? Mature? Reasonable? Possibly not, but I like the fact that Danny is a three-dimensional character with flaws--and I know that makes him thoroughly annoying at times (which I think I also like). :p
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I think that's definitely a good point--Danny already feels responsible for Ruben's death. I think if Rikki had shot Ollie, he would have blamed himself, too. After all, Rikki would have done it with his gun, and then Danny would have two deaths (Ruben, Ollie) and one ruined life (Rikki) on his hands. So I buy that he wanted to fix this himself without having Mac et. al see him (in his mind) screw up yet again.
 
P.S. Welcome back! btw.
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Heh, thanks. I am so pathetic, I missed my computer terribly and wrote down things I wanted to post on my LJ in a notebook so I'd have something to do. :lol: I'm about to be gone for a few more days, but we'll see how that goes. At least there's no new episode to deal with while I'm moving. :p

hairy0haggis said:
There is NO stronger bond than that of a parent and child. If my wee girl was taken from me then I would hunt the bugger down and make them pay.
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Oh, you sound like my mom. :p My mother has always been vocal about the fact that, if anybody hurt one of her kids, they'd pay for it. I 'get it' to a point--Not being a mother myself (yet ;)), I can't completely understand the feeling, but I can tell you that I see where Rikki came from. She wasn't a psycho, she didn't want to kill anybody--she just wanted her son back and felt lost and angry and helpless.

ETA: Damnit, Top! :lol:

Even Danny know Flack was right, though.
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Yep. Ultimately, even if Danny didn't want Flack's help or advice in this situation, he needed it--although I'm sure he'd fight admitting it. :p

I think the way that Danny submitted to Flack (even as he continued to push a bit) shows that he trusts Flack even if he doesn't want him around.

I definitely love the different interpretations of Danny's actions (as well as Flack's) in this one--I really think it's one big mash-up of everything together. :p
 
For this reason, I think I can see where Ricki is coming from. Her child's death wasn't avenged, so she HAD to do it herself. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying 'I get it'
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What I don't get is why she didn't go after the person who'd actually done the shooting. Yes, Ollie was a bit of a tosser, and yes, if he hadn't robbed the bodega then Reuben wouldn't have gotten shot. But if the girl in the bodega hadn't been shooting into the middle of a busy street without taking proper care, then Ruben would still be alive.
 
Ceindreadh said:
For this reason, I think I can see where Ricki is coming from. Her child's death wasn't avenged, so she HAD to do it herself. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying 'I get it'
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What I don't get is why she didn't go after the person who'd actually done the shooting. Yes, Ollie was a bit of a tosser, and yes, if he hadn't robbed the bodega then Reuben wouldn't have gotten shot. But if the girl in the bodega hadn't been shooting into the middle of a busy street without taking proper care, then Ruben would still be alive.
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Yah, Lucy seems like the logical choice, but we don't know if shes been arrested for her action or what. Maybe she is behind bars. Kind of hard to get to her if shes locked up. Secondly, this whole situation was pretty ambiguous as to who should actually be held responsible for Ruben's death. Some people blame Danny, some people blame Lucy, some people blame Ollie for starting the whole thing. What it comes down to I guess is who Rikki felt was responsible and accessible. I also think, shes probably so distraught that there comes a point when you feel someone should be paying for this and it doesn't really matter who.
 
I've been discussing this Jess/Jenn thing over at a list I belong to and it's just so puzzling.

Most places on the net have her as Jenn---a couple as Jess. You have to wonder if maybe the writers strike had something to do with this---as in not able to rewrite something in the script. Or maybe Jess is the middle name of Angell and Flack knows her better than we think (as a friend, guys---mind out of the gutter - heehee).

It's bugging me because I'm trying to write a fic for them and then it hit me---yeah, I know. I'll just have it as a middle name---and her getting a little irritated about it, since if somebody overheard, they might think that they're more than friends---it's an intimate thing, right? What do you guys think.
 
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