"Empty Eyes" Discussion *SPOILERS*

[Alyssa]

Annika said:
You do know that feelings can be quite irrational ?

One of my neighbours works with the police as some kind of religious counseller (maybe someone here knows the right word). He goes with the police to notify the family , things like that but he also does the counselling for the police and the firefighters. It affects them even if it's there job .

I think you're looking for the word "chaplain." I only know it because one of my pastors is a Police chaplain. He's ex-swat team, so we don't mess with him.

You're right, though. People are irrational and sometimes feel guilt for not getting there soon enough, for not reacting fast enough, etc. Sure, they did their jobs the best they could, but things still affect them. Things still affect us. We're not impervious, not matter how long we train, work, study. We're still human.

 

[Destiny]

*Walks in* "Hmm and people wonder why I have this title under my nic" *Shakes head, steps on on the chair*

Okay everyone please Back away from the keyboards take a deep breath and smack your forehead, say I "Should have had a V-8!" NOW you may return to your keyboards.

We don't mind debates we like the discussions on the episodes but lets keep in mind as it has been repeatly said they are opinions and as I have said repeatedly and say it with me... "You have the right to an opinion, as do others, and you have the right to disagree with that opinion as do others". -- Very good now see its not really that hard is it?

You know we all seem to have this marry-go-round when ever a ship is mentioned on the show, usually its the GSR, if you don't like the ship then how hard is it to say "In My opinion ..." and give that opinion, NOW then how hard is it really to say "Okay, my opinion is .." and if after a time you can't agree, how hard is it to respect each others opinions and just agree to disagree? Its really not that hard.

I want to make comment on one or two that was made about this board turning into another board style, guess what? TalkCSI is and always has been its own board, we don't mod outside boards, what happens on them, stays on them, just like what happens here, should stay on here.

*Sigh* We are here for a reason to discuss and even a bit of debating of the episode, we are not here to dissect it, if you do that it stops being a show that you can enjoy and becomes more of something that you can not enjoy. BUT that being said, the same can go for opinions, if you dissect them looking for underlying things it only makes people feel like they shouldn't give one, or that theirs do not count, which is just sad because all opinions are as WE have said allowed and they count.

Now in ending this little speech, lets keep in mind that we are on this site for one reason the show we enjoy, the characters/actors we love and NOT to drive the moderators of the board to want to cyber smack anyone as we know thats never a good sign.

Now if you feel the heat getting turned abit high in the debate everyone step back and relax and remember to view things from all sides before jumping, cause sometimes its like being on a cliff, when you jump will there be a ledge or will it be like the road-runner cartoon.

*Steps off the chair, points out the food and drinks and walks out.* "Thank you!"

 

[Adzix]

thanks for the reminder Destiny

btw, here is TV Guide's review of Empty Eyes.

 

[gsrLOVE]

Thanks Adzix for sharing the review. It was great, I totally agree with him, about everything.

 

[EricaSJ]

Adzix said:
can Erica come back here please? lol

Hm okay, I'm back. lol.

I think we can quit fighting over chemistry. It really depends on who's seeing it and it only gets people mad when we claim a certain pairing has no chemistry or sexual tension. I wanted to reply to a post but I couldn't find it so I'll just write it here. It's about not enough focus on Sara this season. I *think* it's one of the results GSR has caused. In my opinion, Sara has been on the show just for the relationship. She could have had great storylines like Greg has, but a lot of her screentime was dedicated to GSR, which, to me, doesn't really show any character development but the relationship itself. Both Catherine and Warrick have had relationships on the show, but we saw a short scene regarding their relationships only once in a while and that didn't interfere with their other storylines, but the GSR sure has taken away pretty much of Sara's screentime. I like Sara and I miss the old, vibrant Sara. Sara this season has become shallow in my view, thank God Empty Eyes saved it. I really liked Sara in this episode and yes, it was about time to have a Sara-centric episode. Then again, it's a shame that the writing wasn't as good as it could have gotten. Like a lot of people have said, I think the opening was way too slow and the ending was rushed.

 

[Adzix]

i don't know where else to put it but they've parodied CSI on Acceptible TV on VH1, as "Cirque De Soleil - Sex Crime Investigators".

to be frank - i was cracking up.

y'all can watch it here

 

[sarahvma]

First of all, I do want to say that your post was great. That's not to say I agree with it. lol.

It's about not enough focus on Sara this season. I *think* it's one of the results GSR has caused. In my opinion, Sara has been on the show just for the relationship. She could have had great storylines like Greg has, but a lot of her screentime was dedicated to GSR, which, to me, doesn't really show any character development but the relationship itself.

Okay. Here's the issue I have: I think that showing Sara growing in terms of the relationship is actually important. Before, Sara may not have liked some of the things Grissom said or did, but she sort of shrugged her shoulders a lot of the time. This time, when Greg was getting attacked because of Grissom's headache, she stood up for him- something she definitely wouldn't have done before. And I don't even know that it's because of the relationship, necessarily. Sara got a LOT of character development in Season 5. More than any other, I would say. So if they want to take a break and focus on Greg, who has had almost zero development, I don't think that's a bad thing. And honestly, there were plenty of scenes with Sara in Redrum and Meet Market where she was shown either leading the episode or in a strong position and Grissom was nowhere to be found.

Both in the way she told Catherine she wasn't going to air her complaints in public (likely after the fallout of Nesting Dolls) and in the fact that she did head up the main case in Meet Market, I don't know that this argument holds a lot of water. If Nick was in a relationship with, say, Catherine, and he was getting the same screentime he has now (not enough, IMO) then you might say the same. Because really, he's had no character development this season. I think the writers do honestly take a look at who they've focused on prominantly in the most recent past and give the other characters a turn.

Both Catherine and Warrick have had relationships on the show, but we saw a short scene regarding their relationships only once in a while and that didn't interfere with their other storylines, but the GSR sure has taken away pretty much of Sara's screentime.

Yes, but they've never had relationships with another main character. That's the difference. If the character they're dating isn't on the show regularly, it's very very easy to tone down or spend very little time on that relationship. If Grissom and Sara have to work together every day, they have to find a way to interact through their relationship in the workplace.

I like Sara and I miss the old, vibrant Sara. Sara this season has become shallow in my view,

I don't miss Season 2 or Season 3 Sara at ALL. I originally came into the show then, and I hated her. She was far too dramatic. I love this Sara, who has played the role of Protector.

thank God Empty Eyes saved it. I really liked Sara in this episode and yes, it was about time to have a Sara-centric episode.

Here's the thing - this is the way Too Tough to Die should've been. Yes, Sara was always intent on helping the victim, but at the same time, with episodes like Sex, Lies and Larvae among others, you also got the sense that she was doing it for a fundamental reason. Or to settle a score in her past. I'm not saying she didn't care for the victims, but I think that there was something else behind it.

This was 100% about getting Cammie justice. Not "a woman", not "a murder victim". Cammie.

Then again, it's a shame that the writing wasn't as good as it could have gotten. Like a lot of people have said, I think the opening was way too slow and the ending was rushed.

Definitely agree on the ending.

 

[Ceindreadh]

Its in every episode, the GSR storyline has gotten more scenes than the greg storyline! Every 30 sec scene just makes me lose more and more interest in the show.

Well of course, from my POV, I'd much rather be seeing GSR than Greg scenes anyway. IMO, putting Greg out in the field as a CSI was a big mistake because there were already too many people in the main cast. Mind you, keeping him as the lab tech who was into everything was getting a bit boring as well.

I'd much rather see Nick get the screentime and the plots (heck, I'd love to see a Nick/Gris ship <G>)

 

[sarahvma]

Its in every episode, the GSR storyline has gotten more scenes than the greg storyline! Every 30 sec scene just makes me lose more and more interest in the show.

Again, people treat GSR like it's one entity. It is two main characters, and you're comparing that to the screentime of one secondary character?

And I love Greg, but he is a supporting character.

 

[xfcanadian]

sarahvma said:

Its in every episode, the GSR storyline has gotten more scenes than the greg storyline! Every 30 sec scene just makes me lose more and more interest in the show.

Again, people treat GSR like it's one entity. It is two main characters, and you're comparing that to the screentime of one secondary character?

And I love Greg, but he is a supporting character.

Again, GSR fans who don't understand what a bleeping opinion means. Do I need to post the definition?? I don't even want to get into a huge debate, but some of the GSR fans keep going on about how my opinions must be wrong. I don't like GSR, I will NEVER like GSR, get over it!

I wasn't saying your opinion was stupid, nor was I laughing at it. I respect everyone's opinions. I just don't like the fact that everyone's saying GSR is gross or disgusting I just want everyone to get along and like the same show we've been watching for seven years now. Ships shouldn't make a difference...

I wasn't getting mad at everyone. There are a lot of good pro GSR posts here, but I always get some lecture convincing me to like GSR, like they are trying to convert me. I call a spade a spade, I don't believe in sugar coating everything. I am sorry, but GSR just creeps me out, thats just the way I see it.

 

[MissDee]

xfcanadian, no one is trying to make you like GSR, and nor should they... you have your reasons for disliking it, and you're perfectly entitled to them. That said, this is an episode discussion thread, and if we state that we did/did not like the GSR in this episode then it is pretty much a given that we have to explain why. Otherwise we'd get an endless litany of "Liked GSR!" "Didn't like GSR!" for about two hundred and fifty posts, and it'd get boring. However, this means that people have the opportunity to hear our arguments, and either explain why that doesn't work for them or point out the inconsistencies that we have used to marshall them. That's the nature of a discussion thread.

Of course, if you don't want your opinions commented upon, you are free not to give them. But if you do want to air them, then you must be prepared to have people disagree with you as well as agree with you. It should lead to engaging discussion, if we all try to be careful to be honest without unnecessarily hurting each other or disrespecting opinions contrary to our own.

My opinion - which, let me assure you all, everyone has my permission to comment upon; *grin* - is that while I am happy that TPTB are not forgetting about the GSR, as it is one of the arcs this season, I do wish that they'd mix it up a bit. It might be nice, for example, to start off an episode with Grissom and Sara relaxing at home, or making dinner, or whatever, when they both get called in on a day off for two separate cases. Just something a little different. And then Grissom can work with Catherine and Nick, Sara with Warrick and Greg. Or whoever. I'd just like to see a little bit of a different dynamic.

That said, I think that ending with GSR was good here, and not because of the romantic context (although I don't mind that). As Alyssa said (at least, I think it was her; sometimes I get my posters and boards mixed up - but anyway, it wasn't my idea), everyone this case encountered Sara at some point and asked if she was okay, or hinted that they wanted to know if she was okay... and each time Sara basically said "Fine. I'm fine." Being stoic, I suppose, and unemotional - the way a CSI is supposed to be. Therefore, it is only natural that at the end, it is her boyfriend who doesn't ask if she's okay, but rather stands and listens because he knows she's not. And now that the case is over, she admits to him how troubled she is by it. I liked it - not because it was Grissom and Sara, per se, but because it felt like a very organic and honest ending considering the emotional-fallout component of the story.

And to be honest, if this case had been, say, Warrick's bailiwick instead of Sara's, and if it'd had been Nick and Warrick at the end, with Nick listening to a troubled Warrick at the end of a long, hard case - well, I think a strong "best friend" relationship could have pulled off that sort of ending too.

 

[Adzix]

Again, GSR fans who don't understand what a bleeping opinion means. Do I need to post the definition?? I don't even want to get into a huge debate, but some of the GSR fans keep going on about how my opinions must be wrong. I don't like GSR, I will NEVER like GSR, get over it!

well, you gave your opinion and some people answered disagreeing. we don't try to convince you to anything, we just say what we think. why can't we? don't get angry everytime we try to prove why we are right. instead, find your own evidence and show it to us. if you say that you already did, that's fine. you don't have to repeat it many times if we already heard it. because then a discussion becomes an argument, and we don't want that.

That said, I think that ending with GSR was good here, and not because of the romantic context (although I don't mind that). As Alyssa said (at least, I think it was her; sometimes I get my posters and boards mixed up - but anyway, it wasn't my idea), everyone this case encountered Sara at some point and asked if she was okay, or hinted that they wanted to know if she was okay... and each time Sara basically said "Fine. I'm fine." Being stoic, I suppose, and unemotional - the way a CSI is supposed to be. Therefore, it is only natural that at the end, it is her boyfriend who doesn't ask if she's okay, but rather stands and listens because he knows she's not. And now that the case is over, she admits to him how troubled she is by it. I liked it - not because it was Grissom and Sara, per se, but because it felt like a very organic and honest ending considering the emotional-fallout component of the story.

ooh, i love this interpretation MissDee. they've became very good in deciphering each other's feelings lately. maybe it's the sabbatical that helped a bit, or maybe it's just time. you know, in the past they couldn't understand each other even using words, but now they don't need words. why? i think there is no boundary, they took off their masks, and when they are together they read each other without words.

but Grissom is better in reading her than she is reading him, and that's understandable. she always wore her heart on her sleeve, but later learned how to hide it deeper. now, she is even more exposed to him than she was in the beginning. and that's trust. he, on the other hand, never was easy to read. but scenes like in EE or Falling Idols convince me that he shows way more than anytime prior. and that's another reason why i find this relationship beautiful - it shows us a little part of real Grissom, the one behind the mask.

 

[Destiny]

Because I refuse to retype out any of that below so those who didn't read it the first time, Now might be the time to read it ALL! Thank you.

Destiny said: *Walks in* "Hmm and people wonder why I have this title under my nic" *Shakes head, steps on on the chair*

Okay everyone please Back away from the keyboards take a deep breath and smack your forehead, say I "Should have had a V-8!" NOW you may return to your keyboards.

We don't mind debates we like the discussions on the episodes but lets keep in mind as it has been repeatly said they are opinions and as I have said repeatedly and say it with me... "You have the right to an opinion, as do others, and you have the right to disagree with that opinion as do others". -- Very good now see its not really that hard is it?

You know we all seem to have this marry-go-round when ever a ship is mentioned on the show, usually its the GSR, if you don't like the ship then how hard is it to say "In My opinion ..." and give that opinion, NOW then how hard is it really to say "Okay, my opinion is .." and if after a time you can't agree, how hard is it to respect each others opinions and just agree to disagree? Its really not that hard.

I want to make comment on one or two that was made about this board turning into another board style, guess what? TalkCSI is and always has been its own board, we don't mod outside boards, what happens on them, stays on them, just like what happens here, should stay on here.

*Sigh* We are here for a reason to discuss and even a bit of debating of the episode, we are not here to dissect it, if you do that it stops being a show that you can enjoy and becomes more of something that you can not enjoy. BUT that being said, the same can go for opinions, if you dissect them looking for underlying things it only makes people feel like they shouldn't give one, or that theirs do not count, which is just sad because all opinions are as WE have said allowed and they count.

Now in ending this little speech, lets keep in mind that we are on this site for one reason the show we enjoy, the characters/actors we love and NOT to drive the moderators of the board to want to cyber smack anyone as we know thats never a good sign.

Now if you feel the heat getting turned abit high in the debate everyone step back and relax and remember to view things from all sides before jumping, cause sometimes its like being on a cliff, when you jump will there be a ledge or will it be like the road-runner cartoon.

*Steps off the chair, points out the food and drinks and walks out.* "Thank you!"

 

[sarahvma]

I understand, Destiny. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. lol (for me)

Again, GSR fans who don't understand what a bleeping opinion means. Do I need to post the definition?? I don't even want to get into a huge debate, but some of the GSR fans keep going on about how my opinions must be wrong. I don't like GSR, I will NEVER like GSR, get over it!

I'm not in any way, shape or form trying to convince you. I am merely expressing my own opinion and my own interpretation. I'm sorry if that was how you read it, and in all honesty I respect that there are people who don't like GSR, but we were talking about physical screentime, not objective chemistry.

I wasn't getting mad at everyone. There are a lot of good pro GSR posts here, but I always get some lecture convincing me to like GSR, like they are trying to convert me. I call a spade a spade, I don't believe in sugar coating everything. I am sorry, but GSR just creeps me out, thats just the way I see it.

And hey - you are COMPLETELY allowed to feel that way. But by the same token, we should also be allowed to say how we feel in reaction, shouldn't we? If we like GSR, and we say they have great chemistry, and you come in and say, "No they don't" are you reacting to us? You're not trying to convert us, you're not trying to "show us the light", you're reacting. We're reacting.

In summation, ITA with The Dee. Though, really, if The Dee started saying anything I would probably TA, because she has a particularly lovely style of writing that lends itself to ITA'ing.

Building on what The Dee said, I think that there are some times when it is necessary to end on a romantic or sweet note. This was a hard, heavy case. Seeing some human kindness, some human love, at the end of that is a good way of clearing away the "bad" feeling. This sense that a lot of crime shows have of showing you wave after wave of mindless, soulless violence, would get very old if it wasn't countered with something more real.

This episode sort of is a perfect way of saying why I love Vegas and can't stand Miami. Horatio likes to soap box. Grissom doesn't really do that. He just holds the hand that needs holding, be it verbally or physically, and offers some kind of rationale, but doesn't condemn. It's not really his way - with the exception of wife beaters or child molesters.

So the end of the episode was, "Yes, this murder is one aspect of life, but going home with someone you love at the end of the day is another, and isn't it nice that two people who are known to be bogged down by this have someone to share it with and ease the pain?"

Nick and Sara had their moment. Nick was sort of (and again - I always forget how great this cast is until they get this kind of material) non-verbally reminding Sara of Grave Danger, but also comforting her.

Grissom tried, as best as he has ever done with Greg (lol) to console him and try to help him shrug off the guilt.

Warrick was there for the woman so she wouldn't have to receive the news from a cold stranger - so she could have a familiar shoulder to cry on.

The crime itself was about a man detached from the world, and its effects showed us how the team reach out to people, and try to connect to the world when this kind of thing happens. And it's a lovely message. It didn't need the GSR scene, but I do think it added that final dynamic.

Grissom and Greg - mentor and student
Sara and Nick - friends
Warrick and Old Woman - the woman who once was his shoulder now needs his.
Sara and Grissom - the "couple"

They used a lot of dyamics here, and G+S were just one small part of it.

 

[xfcanadian]

xfcanadian, no one is trying to make you like GSR, and nor should they... you have your reasons for disliking it, and you're perfectly entitled to them. That said, this is an episode discussion thread, and if we state that we did/did not like the GSR in this episode then it is pretty much a given that we have to explain why. Otherwise we'd get an endless litany of "Liked GSR!" "Didn't like GSR!" for about two hundred and fifty posts, and it'd get boring. However, this means that people have the opportunity to hear our arguments, and either explain why that doesn't work for them or point out the inconsistencies that we have used to marshall them. That's the nature of a discussion thread.

Of course, if you don't want your opinions commented upon, you are free not to give them. But if you do want to air them, then you must be prepared to have people disagree with you as well as agree with you. It should lead to engaging discussion, if we all try to be careful to be honest without unnecessarily hurting each other or disrespecting opinions contrary to our own.

I don't care if people disagree with my opinions I post, there were several who did, and then posted how they saw it. But there were several who posted how it must be wrong, because they don't see it the way I do. Like telling me my interpetation is wrong because they have chemisty. But I don't think they do, so therefore my opinions would be correct for me. I also feel like I am getting some lecture of why I should like GSR, instead of them just saying how much they like the GSR themselves. Doesn't anyone get what I am trying to say?

well, you gave your opinion and some people answered disagreeing. we don't try to convince you to anything, we just say what we think. why can't we? don't get angry everytime we try to prove why we are right. instead, find your own evidence and show it to us. if you say that you already did, that's fine. you don't have to repeat it many times if we already heard it. because then a discussion becomes an argument, and we don't want that.

Here is a good example of what I am trying to say. No one is right, or wrong, because the relationship is subjective. You say you are trying to prove yourself right, but there isn't a right or wrong way, just opinions. I don't want anyone to think I am right, just trying to share the way I feel. When you start trying to prove yourself right about a relationship, then it does feel like I am getting lectured about why I have to like it.

And the reason I keep repeating the same thing over and over, is because I keep getting the same responses over, like no one bothers to look at my explanations of my opinions. I keep saying why I think the GSR is taking over the show, and I keep getting responses like 'oh they only show small scenes' over and over again. I KNOW THAT! I keep having to repeat my explanation, since no one seems to read them.

I'm not in any way, shape or form trying to convince you. I am merely expressing my own opinion and my own interpretation. I'm sorry if that was how you read it, and in all honesty I respect that there are people who don't like GSR, but we were talking about physical screentime, not objective chemistry.

physical screentime is still subjective, but thanks for comming out. I don't think sara should get more than greg, since they are BOTH supporting cast members, but thats how I feel.