Why Lindsay Must Go

Yes there does. Being a CSI is not a fun job. It's long shift after long shift, dealing with the scum of society, seeing things most people only see in their nightmares. I don't know if you've ever been in a crime scene, been around a dead corpse, or anything like that, but trust me - if you don't have a damn good reason for doing it, you don't. If you just like science, you go work in a lab somewhere. You don't put yourself in the front line seeing what they see because you're quite fond of chemistry.

There has to be something. Something that drives you and makes it worth it.

 

Just when I thought I was done for the night, I read this and had to reply.

I am currently in graduate school for forensic science, wanting be either a CSI or death investigator. This is something I have wanted to do for roughly 8 or so years, when I started college. I am passionate about my work and the people with whom I serve. Going into forensics, working on the 'front line' is work. I have done the second, third shift working with the people that NO ONE wants to work with. (offenders) It is not a piece of cake nor is it easy. I am driven by a desire to help others, especially those that cannot help themselves. These are the victims that need our help and they should not die in vain. The passion and drive is clearly there, and there is a reason.

Stella, Danny, Hawkes, and Mac have that passion,desire, and drive. We even see it in Flack, as a cop. We see that in how they portray their characters. We have yet to see it in Lindsay. I hope too soon.

 

I don't care about your reasons, but yes she must go.

 

Sweetheart, this thread is all about reasons. You're not furthering your 'cause by being so blunt. Now, give me half an hour and a word document and I'll get down to Kidder's post.

Edit: Alright, here we go, and this post comes with a health warning: It's LOOOOOOOOOONG! But I hope people read and think it through before replying to it.

I think you’re mistaking where I’m coming from. I don’t ‘blame’ the writers for anything. You’re not taking into account the most important thing about my post: I like Lindsay exactly the way she is. I honestly am completely satisfied with the way Lindsay is right now. I wouldn’t be happy if she was just left the way she is, in the same way I wouldn’t be happy if the writers left any character completely static, particularly a new one, but as far as I’m concerned, she’s being written fine, Anna is playing her fine and she’s progressing fine. When I talk about the writing, interacting with other characters, etc I’m trying to hypothesise about why other people don’t like her, and I don’t think it’s Anna’s performance that’s the problem, for the simple reason that lots of people do like her, so clearly she’s getting through to some of us. If you think it is Anna’s performance that’s the issue, then that’s your prerogative, but I honestly don’t. I’ve seen her in other things (Medical Investigation, Without a Trace, Alchemy) and she’s good. I think the reason that some people don’t like Lindsay is that she’s just not expanding very much at the moment. *shrug* Maybe it’s just easier for me to believe that, personally.

When I talk about ‘immediate likeability’ I mean in one series. It took me four series (FOUR) to warm up to Sara to the extent where I found her engaging, and we were half way through series five before I liked her enough to begin to ‘ship her. I never felt particularly negatively towards Sara (I rarely feel any active dislike of fictional characters) I just felt neutral – Sara was around. She worked cases. That was it. Other people liked her well enough, so I guessed that my NOT really liking her was just a personal thing, and got on with it. This is different because you clearly feel active dislike for Lindsay and think she’s having a detrimental effect on the show, which is fine, but I don’t think that your personal opinion of Lindsay means she ought to leave, when so many people over in the Lindsay thread disagree with you.

I agree that Lindsay needs to appeal to people on a broader level. But I think that that’s already happening and that it will continue to – I’ve seen people who started the series not liking her at all (myself included) warm gradually up to her. Some really, really like her now. Others are just beginning to say ‘okay, she’s alright, I guess, but I still like so-and-so better’. You don’t have to like her this series, or the next. Maybe it’ll take you years and even after she’ll never be your favourite character. Maybe you wont ever like her – it’s all good – but I don’t think Lindsay necessarily has to appeal to everyone right now, or ever. No character appeals to everyone. We connect to different characters at different times and in different series. I never liked Warrick until quite recently, when, for some inexplicable reason, I found myself warming to him. I’ve gone off Calleigh over the last couple of episodes (again, no idea why), but I guess I’ll probably come back to her eventually. Our like or otherwise of characters is a developmental thing. It changes.

That’s an interesting point. You’ve also raised an interesting philosophical one. What makes a character? Is Lindsay just a set of mannerisms, repetitive actions and caricatures? Aren’t all of them? What turns a character from that into a three dimensional human being inside the viewer’s mind? Because Lindsay is already a fairly three dimensional character inside my head and the heads of a lot of people in the Lindsay thread and the D/L thread – so I can honestly say I don’t know what it is that makes her 3D to me and not to you. Is she fully formed? No, of course not – she’s only been with us seventeen episodes and in that time she’s not had a single individual plot line or story arc of her own and she’s only ever shown interacting with Danny or Mac, with occasional banter from Stella for good measure. It’s hardly the plant’s fault when it fails to flourish because it’s being kept in a pot in a dark cupboard with plenty of water but no sunshine.

As I said, it took me four series to like Sara. I know people who still don’t. Arguably, it’s taken me SIX to like Warrick. Just because it’s taking some people a long time to warm up to her, or that some people will never like her, doesn’t mean Lindsay’s useless. She doesn’t have to appeal to everyone at the same time for the same reasons. You have your opinion of her, as do various other people here who don’t like her. I don’t see why that opinion automatically counts for more than the opinions of the people who DO like her. (Sorry, the last sentence probably sounds snarky, I don’t mean it to, but you see what I’m trying to say here).

:lol: OMG, that’s a good point! *giggles* Okay, but seriously, with reality TV, the audience aren’t looking for the same kind of ‘quality’ the audience of a crime-drama like CSI are looking for. Miami’s ratings have been declining recently and people are blaming unrealistic story-arcs, the whole ‘baby’ issue, Natalia Boa Vista, etc. The majority of people who watch CSI are repeat viewers, people who follow it and the characters from one week to the next. If they really thought NY was getting worse, they simply wouldn’t be tuning in to watch it.

No, it wouldn’t sink it, but it would rock the boat again. People would trust any replacement character brought in even less – it’s like the attachment issues kids brought up with an endless stream of nannies have. A new character – nope, we’ll take her away again. Another new character – nope, we’re taking that one away too. Here’s another. We promise we’ll keep this one. (You can just hear the audience raising their bratty, abandonment-complex riddled eyebrows and going ‘suuuuuuure, we believe you.’ :lol: )

No, I don’t think people here want Aiden back either, that was just a suggestion. I call it a terrible loss because it would be yet another show with only one, strong female character. It’s a pity, is all. And I know you don’t think Lindsay is a strong character, but I and various others DO. I have no doubt that Stella would carry off being the loan woman beautifully – but I for one would miss the female presence on the show. I’m a woman. I want to see more than woman on the team, petty as that may be. Calleigh handles it on Miami, sure – but I still mourn there being just her as a lead female character (though, as a rule, I don’t like the way women are portrayed a lot on Miami anyway, and Miami is my least favourite of the franchises right now so how it’s set up is, as far as I’m concerned, the very LAST way I want New York – my current favourite – to be set up).

I don’t think Lindsay was rushed, either. By the end of the first series, the show’s writers and producers knew Vanessa Ferlito wanted to leave. They had plenty of time to come up with, audition for and develop a new character. And no, they didn’t need to bring in a new character. Someone said that Hawkes was essentially Aiden’s replacement? I think that’s right. It’s a rather odd situation we’ve been gotten into here, on the whole, with two rookies on the team at the same time. But just ‘cause they didn’t need to, doesn’t mean it was a bad idea.

Your opinion is a valid one, but it doesn’t count for more or less than the people who like Lindsay. It’s no reason to get rid of her. There are at least as many people who want Lindsay to stay as who dislike her, and I don’t think too many people who dislike her actually want her to leave. They just get on with liking other aspects of the show. Lindsay isn’t just going to be gotten rid of because you and a few others are saying she should, even though you’ve been very reasonable, backing up all your statements and explaining your case very fully. People are still making just a full cases against you, and as long as they are doing that, it means that Lindsay is loved and appreciated by at least some other sections of the fanbase. As long as that is happening, she isn’t going to junked.

 

All these posts is making me excited to watch Lindsay's debut next week.

But among all these posts I have to agree that Stella would do fine being the only female on the team. And yeah, the casts are great despite the fact of Vanessa's departure. And Hawkes is doing good being a CSI rookie.

Do we need another addition to the cast?I don't think so.

Now that Lindsay is already in,I'd say give her a chance.
But if she is nothing but a big..big dissapointment,she should go.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing more of Lindsay's adjustment to NY as part of her development. I liked the time in one of her first episodes where she stopped to jot down a phone number for an apartment building.

I didn't like how they brought up the doot-do-doot or asking about the water tower. Maybe it's because of how I would handle it that it bugged me. I would be more likely to ask about it subtly and kind of joke about it, like "Not to sound like an idiot, but what is..."

 

Having read all the posts I think perhaps the difference in viewpoints may be attributed to the notion that you don’t believe the show is character driven, maybe that makes your standard for characterization less than those who believe Zuiker’s words that this is in fact a show driven by character. That means each actor and their every delivery must be convincing not to simply a group of 60 or so people, but to each and for each viewer. I too have seen her other performances and still agree with other people in this thread that her performance is lacking, maybe for me she is simply someone who lacks the emotional range to convincingly pull off any character of substance, and sadly Lindsay is not currently a character of substance.

Her episode of WOT was carried in no small part by the phenomenal acting of LaPaglia and an intense well written storyline, Anna was better than she is on NY, but her emotional highpoint, which I won’t mention for those that haven’t yet seen the episode, was unbelievable and unconvincing again thank goodness for LaPaglia sweeping in and saving the day. Anna’s performance always seem a bit perfunctory, a bit as if she is testing the waters in acting class, but isn’t yet ready to graduate. I also watched Medical Investigations, I saw the first episode, I saw the last episode, and I saw the episodes in between, and bonus I saw The Handler and my opinion is that Anna’s range is what it is and being a convincing CSI is not part of her skill.

Many people in this thread, the grading thread, and even a few in the Lindsay thread agree with Kidder’s assessment, I don’t think you should so easily dismiss someone’s opinion, especially not with the statement that people disagree with it, because then we could just as easily dismiss yours and all of theirs. The point here is not to agree, it is to discuss, agreement will probably never come, but those inside of the Lindsay thread, most of whom also post in the D/L shipper thread hardly hold more weight when it comes to what they believe. Many people outside of the Lindsay thread disagree with them, which makes just a bit of sense now doesn’t it, but it no way devalues what they feel. This is tit for tat and I won’t play that game it does nothing but steer people away from the important issue.

Let us not forget those that liked her in the beginning and now don’t like her or her portrayal, because there are some of those as well. There are those that posted early in the Lindsay thread speaking of how much they enjoyed her, then a few months later some of them have made rather convincing arguments about why they feel either or both the writing and acting are hollow and weak. I love the way debates come full circle when both sides are presented, it certainly gives a better picture, does it not.

I would say this would be valid if the character were an Ecklie someone the viewer is not supposed to like, however I think the point was for the majority of people to like, nay, enjoy Lindsay. I believe people were to be delighted by her newness and the freshness she brought to the team, in my opinion they have failed. Appealing to everyone, everyone warming to a character and then some people cringing when she comes onscreen are worlds and worlds apart. I doubt cringing was what they wanted when they walked in to the meeting and developed the character on such short notice.

Lindsay as a plant, now that idea appeals to me, quiet and in a corner, waiting for water (excellent writing) and sunlight (excellent acting) so that she can flourish, but until that moment just seeds in dirt - that is where we are right now. All of her unnecessary interactions with Danny have given her plenty of extra screen time, she has not bothered to capitalize on those moments, because the scenes are forced and the acting is wooden. I’m not sure what makes a character three dimensional for you, only what makes one that way for me, and being a student of literature it takes more than a few moments of cuteness (actually only two moments of childlike cuteness), it takes more than hunting down the hot guy every chance you get, it takes more than being a sycophantic kiss ass, and it absolutly takes a better delivery than Anna has bothered to give. Kidder made an excellent point about a real time scenario, it is not as though the character as been with us the equivalent of 17 days, supposed months have passed and still there is not growth, no change, no discernable personality of note.

It did sound snarky and I imagine what you said is just what you meant or else, perhaps, you would have reworded the phrase. I’m not sure anyone here has implied that the opinion of those than have problems with Lindsay count for more than those that like her, but for some the converse certainly seems a bit true, especially if some of the posts in the Lindsay thread are to be believed. In fact, it appears based on those posts her supporters are a veritable army of truth and goodness while we over here are nothing more than bashers who have been reduced to intellectual nothingness.

I think that is an oversimplified idea of television viewing habits. If people love five out of six characters and are looking forward to the storylines and the growth of all but one, why would they tune out entirely? Many shows, even top rated shows have suffered from a rocky season or two, but people still tune in, when shows are past their prime, viewers still tune in, habits form and a lot of people stick it out for the long haul, but it doesn’t mean everyone will, and it certainly doesn’t mean that they are turning out quality television..

By the way, CSI:Miami is the number one show in the world, so I think and no doubt TPTB think that they are just fine.

And as long as people continue to make a case against her it continues to show that she is not loved, we can play a game of this and then that all day for many posts, but why, it proves nothing other than peoples opinions diverge. My point and the point of others here is not to make you or any of the other Lindsay lovers believe it is to send a message to those that run the show, to express our dissatisfaction, an act to which I believe we are entitled. What it does show is that she is a divisive character and that is not good for any show.

Everyone’s opinion is valid and that means their entire opinion, so if someone feels she should leave the show it is just as valid as the opinion of someone who believes she is perfection itself. I love that the people who express problems with Lindsay are the few as opposed to the masses that love her, apparently, what an over inflated idea of her status and popularity on the show. Those that like her and those that don’t, I believe to be equally in the minority on this board, the larger portion is either indifferent or doesn’t feel a need to post. Either way the opinions spouted for and against are but a small part of this rather large community and this rather large community is but a small part of the millions who watch the show.

Ali

 

*raises hand* That's definitely me. I didn't come into NY until Manhattan Manhunt and for those first few eps (and the earlier ones I managed to find) Lindsay was my favourite female character, and in fact was second only to Flack. I enjoyed the fact that she put up with all the new girl stuff from Mac and Stella and gamely did all the rookie jobs with a wry smile, yet was still hurt by Danny's snide pettiness in the early episodes. I liked the fact that while she was the new girl, she wasn't fresh from the classroom and knew she could do her job - all her initial nervousness was down to fitting in to the NY way and Mac's standards, not the fact she was unsure about her capabilities.

Then after those first few episodes we were given nothing else until she was suddenly attatched to Danny's arse and her character brief did a quick 180. Instead of a girl who watched and learnt and tried to imitate her peers, she suddenly became a bull in a china shop; trying too hard to sound tough with clearly innocent subjects, seeking constant pats on the head and acting like a rookie CSI, not just someone who was new to the lab. Meanwhile the other characters are left reacting to two different Lindsays, because the writers refuse to acknowledge the inconsistancies in the writing.

Obviously you can't please all the people, all the time, but I think the fact that Lindsay is such a divisive character proves that there's a problem. All of the characters have people who don't like them, but the fact that the non-Lindsay fans are such a large and vocal group in comparison does not bode well. This doesn't mean people are wrong or stupid for liking what there is, just that there's a lot of people who actively dislike a key character, which isn't really meant to happen with the good guys.

I think it also needs pointing out that backstory is NOT the same thing as character development. After a whole season of Aiden we still knew very little about her history, but on the whole she was considered a well rounded and well liked character. We're not looking for Lindsay's life story in order to be interested in her - just something more substantial than we're being given at the moment.

 

I feel just about the same way right now. I tried to give her a chance at first but this is ridiculous. Most of her actions on the show don't even seem realistic. Like many of you have said, it seems like she is back to being a rookie CSI. It's awfule!

 

I found your post incredibly fascinating, in fact I loved it, your perspective is totally unique, I can’t recall anyone else’s post discussing their transition from supporter to disenchanted viewer. I have never liked Lindsay so hearing from someone that did and now does not is so insightful. The way you see her as two different characters is something I hadn’t considered, and yet makes so mush sense, the writers losing direction and focus with the character. I am so glad you posted your thoughts, it gives me another level to consider in what has gone wrong with her characterization.

I agree being a divisive character is a problem especially when she is not meant to be and I think that is something the writers need to know. It isn’t as if she is a morally ambiguous character or an outright horrible person, so in theory she should be easy to like and enjoy. The fact that she is not means something has gone awry and it needs to be addressed and damage control should begin immediately.

*clap*You are right a backstory does not make a character, every good writer knows things about their character that the reader, listener, or viewer never knows or even need know, but it is the skeleton, it is the building blocks it is what you use to make a character substantial and real. Backstory incorporates the word back for a reason, it is just the bones, and we are looking for the meat. That is all I will say about that because what you wrote is the nail on the head.


Here’s a question, do you think Anna’s portrayal has changed for either better or worse?


Ali

 

Regarding the rating comments...While Ratings don't necessarily = Quality, we do have to remember Ratings = Viewers = Advertising = Money. In TV Land that's what matters most, to either your pleasure or pain. See I'm better at explaining myself with equations, but then what can you expect from someone who was disappointed they couldn't take Economic Calculus because there weren't enough students. Next I'll posting pie charts, and linear regressions with trend analysis, SCAREY! :lol: *SIGH* Some of us just can never get our words out straight, I guess. As long as you get the jist of it, really. What we need is some psych major who can draw up a Myers-Briggs profile for Miss Monroe. That would solve EVERYTHING. Maybe not. Maybe I'm just one more too many of the Educated Idiots who needs to kick back and veg like the Illiterate Prodigies out there.

 

That would be an interesting project. Now, if I could just find the time.

 

Oh and it was meant that I need to kick back, nobody else. :lol: See I can't use English.

clhawk, I saw somewhere a Myers-Briggs regarding Marg Helgenberger and Gary Dourdan, they're both INFJ...Crap no wonder I watch the shows. Quick! Someone get Anna to do one! And Carmine, just because .

 

There's actually quite a few of us who started out liking Lindsey and have rapidly become more and more disillusioned with the character as the series went on. I said in the Lindsey/Aiden thread that at the beginning of series two, I actually didn't like Aiden. I cheered when she left and was replaced.

As the series has gone on, and I've seen more and more of Lindsey, I'm becoming so frustrated with her that I'm actually missing a character I never liked in the first place, because she had more substance. It's a case of "you don't know what you've got til it's gone".

I'm not generally partial to female characters on TV. I find them either sappy and annoying or too good to be true. CSI has provided me with a small group of fictional women who I actually enjoyed getting to know and, laugh if you will, look up to. I look at say, Stella, and I see a woman who's strong and intelligent. Not perfect, but who has overcome her own personal difficulties. I found Aiden to be annoying and abrasive at times, but as I've gone back and watched the first series again, I know that was part of who she was - she was a very tough, independant character.

I can't look up to Lindsey. I've tried. I simply find her annoying and vapid. I don't want to, but they're not giving me any reason to like her. The rest of the cast seem to overpower her and while she's had some nice moments, I need more consistency and substance.

To put this in a very simple form - I have not only gone from liking to disliking Lindsey, but her non-existance as a character has made me like a character I previously did not like.

In answer to your last question - I think it's more about quantity. In the beginning, I didn't know the actress and viewed her with optimism. Obviously, as I've gone through the series and seen Lindsey in various scenes/situations, I think that there's problems with certain things. Anything "tough" or gritty doesn't quite work properly. And that's a problem for me - I don't want a "nice" character. I want a good one.

I've worked in a law-related male-dominated environment, in uniform, with ex-marines and the like. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I find the idea that Lindsey would enter this world just because she likes learning things or because science is fun to be utterly patronising. No-one does this job unless they have damn good reasons for doing so, and when you do do it, you get tough extremely quickly. So if Lindsey is "insecure" - it's either the reason she moved, or because she's in a new city, but after several months, we should have seen some development. There should be some...settling down? She doesn't need to be doing that thing where she withholds info until her partner asks her for it. (She did it with Danny last ep, and Stella before that) I want, no... need her to grow up. To stand on her own, without support from Danny or Mac.