Why Lindsay Must Go

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Fabian said:
I completely understand, Lyn.
I'm glad that it is not just simply bashing or loving, but that people are actually being constructive.
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I think what's bothering me is that a lot of the sentiment is - we want Lindsey to be better. Not Aiden, but her own woman. We want her to be a character in her own right, with a purpose and background of her own. And yes, I am throwing criticism at the writers here.

Even Lindsey fans - even if they're Danny/Lindsey shippers, must see that having Lindsey chase him constantly isn't doing anything for her character development. Let her stand on her own, play hard to get, fill out as a person. We've had what... eighteen, nineteen episodes now? We know she's not from New York. We know she's the New Girl. We've been given a vague hint she has a "secret" and that she now might like football and opera. I still don't know what area she specialises in, her reasons for becoming a CSI, etc. That bothers me.

Flack's a cop because it runs in his family - Mac does it for his sense of justice. Stella seems to have a need to help people after being left on her own for so long. Danny... Danny is a CSI because he has this passionate yet odd sense of morals tells him he needs to make things right. Hawkes does it because he wants to see the whole picture and make a difference. Why does Lindsey do it? What drives her? We've seen her empathise with a victim once, but it wasn't a passionate emote.

I want to see her get mad about something. I want to see her animated for a reason that isn't a) Danny or b) pleasing Mac.

I don't think that makes me out to be a Lindsey-bashing monster, and I don't think anyone else in this thread is either. I'd love some of the Lindsey fans who are complaining in other threads to come here and convince me what a fantastic character she is - but give me reasons other than "she's cute with Danny" or "she's different from Aiden".
 
I am just venting my frustration with the character, Lindsay, not the actor Anna. I do think that the show hurredly put someone in to replace Aiden, and I am wondering why. I just don't think that her chemistry is there, like all of the others. She isn't making me want to watch the show each week (ok, seeing Danny in tight shirts is a good start), but anyway,her character just doesn't flow like the others (IMO) :)
 
One of the big problems with Lindsay's character (as was mentioned a lot in the A v L thread) is the fact that there's no consistency to her character. She seems to flip-flop between being a tough cookie under the cute girl facade, Manhatten Manhunt being the best example, and being a simple country girl trying to appear tougher than she is, which is most evident in the two latest eps. Either of these would be interesting, believable starting points for a likeable character, but you can't keep switching between the two, nor can you switch character brief mid-season and expect people to swallow it.

I enjoyed Lindsay when she first arrived, and I really do want to like her, which is why I tend to put her faults with the writers rather than Anna. The recent interrogation scenes do come off as flat but, Live And Let Die aside, it comes across as Lindsay trying to be someone she isn't and failing miserably. On a similar line, the flirting scenes with Danny come across as him humouring her crush, or at least keeping his options open, but it would be nice if the show acknowledged that, because at the moment it seems that the writers and the actors idea of what the subtext should be is worlds apart.
 
I'm not sure that I can offer any new insights to this thread, and JDonne pretty much hit upon everything that I think is wrong with the character, but I still feel the need to offer up my thoughts.

First of all, I really don't think they needed a new character this season. I've often thought, and as others have pointed out, that even with Aiden leaving, we had Hawkes moving to the field and becoming a CSI. So, we had the same balance of CSI's that we had in Season 1. I agree with those that said the reason for the new character was to add another female to the cast in place of the one that departed. But as Bitten pointed out, the balance of male/female main characters is off in CSI: Miami and it works just fine. As long as the characters are well written and believable it doesn't really matter to me if there's more men than women or vice versa.

About Lindsay: I tried my best to give the character the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the season, I really have, but I've given up. I've gone from being annoyed by the character to really not having a vested interest in her one way or the other to finally gritting my teeth everytime she comes on the screen. I don't get a sense of her personality the way I do with the other characters, all I see is her seeking Mac's approval, or by turns either flirting with or trying to out do Danny. In my opinion, her scenes with Stella also fall flat and I think the reason she has had only had the briefest screentime with Flack is that Eddie's strong onscreen presence would all but make Lindsay disappear. A similar thing already happens in her scenes with Danny/Carmine.

I'm not sure where the writers went wrong with the character, and I usually don't like to lay blame at the feet of the actress, but something's off here, and I'm not sure it can be corrected. At this point, I just wish the character was gone, I really don't want to know more about her, and even if they did reveal the 'deep dark secret' from her past, I doubt it could make me change my feelings about her. On Miami, the revelation of Natalia's 'secret past' did absolutely nothing for me in regards to changing my mind about my feelings towards her, and I suspect the same would hold true of Lindsay.

About Anna, I only saw a few episodes of 'Medical Investigation', but I always liked her on there, and I liked her performance on 'Without A Trace', but to me she's not coming across as convincing as a CSI. I think 'lackluster' is the most appropriate word I can come up with to describe most of the Lindsay scenes. However, I will say there was one Lindsay scene I liked this season, and that was when she shot the crossbow. I actually laughed out loud at her reaction to that, and thought it was a great scene. But I find it a little sad that out of almost a whole season, I can only come up with one scene that I enjoyed the character in.

That brings me to the Danny/Lindsay scenes they keep forcing on us. I really, really wish they'd stop those, and the sooner the better. I thought the fact that I'm a non-shipper was the cause of my annoyance with these scenes at first, but as Jaydn said, I can watch the flirtatious scenes between Danny and Aiden, Danny and Maka, or even Danny and Stella without cringing and rolling my eyes, and in fact I even find them enjoyable. As others have said, the two characters have no chemistry, and I think that if the writers had spent more time developing the character instead of coming up with ways to force her and Danny together there wouldn't have even been a need for this thread in the first place.

Introducing a new character to a series is always tough, especially if that character is coming on the show in place of another well liked character, and I'm not trying to make this an Aiden or Lindsay thing at all. It can be done succesfully though, and example would be Ryan Wolfe in CSI: Miami. I think the way he was introduced and then eased into the show was nearly perfect. But when it doesn't work (imo, Lindsay or Natalia), it can be a nightmare.

I think it's great that Lindsay has her fans, and I wish I could say I was one of them, but I can't. That really bothers me too because this is one of my favorite shows, and I want to like all the characters, but in this case I can't. Hopefully that'll change next season.
 
ThumpyG42 said:
I'm not sure where the writers went wrong with the character, and I usually don't like to lay blame at the feet of the actress, but something's off here, and I'm not sure it can be corrected. At this point, I just wish the character was gone, I really don't want to know more about her, and even if they did reveal the 'deep dark secret' from her past, I doubt it could make me change my feelings about her. On Miami, the revelation of Natalia's 'secret past' did absolutely nothing for me in regards to changing my mind about my feelings towards her, and I suspect the same would hold true of Lindsay.
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The comparison between Lindsay's character and Natalia's is a great one. Both are characters that were/are going to be added to the main credits. Both have gotten their development mainly through men on the show. That's not a great way to introduce a female character that women (who make up a big chunk of the audience of the CSI shows) are supposed to respect. I hate cliches, and both Lindsay and Natalia fall into the Mary Sue category a bit.

That brings me to the Danny/Lindsay scenes they keep forcing on us. I really, really wish they'd stop those, and the sooner the better. I thought the fact that I'm a non-shipper was the cause of my annoyance with these scenes at first, but as Jaydn said, I can watch the flirtatious scenes between Danny and Aiden, Danny and Maka, or even Danny and Stella without cringing and rolling my eyes, and in fact I even find them enjoyable. As others have said, the two characters have no chemistry, and I think that if the writers had spent more time developing the character instead of coming up with ways to force her and Danny together there wouldn't have even been a need for this thread in the first place.
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I thought Danny's chemistry was much more natural with Aiden or Stella or Maka. I actually blame him a little more for that than her--he just doesn't seem enthused at all about the scenes or the lines. Blame isn't a good word, I guess--it's hard to blame Carmine for not being excited about the writers trying to force something. Lindsay seems interested in Danny, but why not allow it to develop slowly and naturally on both their parts? Seriously, less is more. And they should have waited to see if the actors actually had chemistry before going ahead with the scenes--or had Carmine do a screen test with the people auditioning for Lindsay.

Introducing a new character to a series is always tough, especially if that character is coming on the show in place of another well liked character, and I'm not trying to make this an Aiden or Lindsay thing at all. It can be done succesfully though, and example would be Ryan Wolfe in CSI: Miami. I think the way he was introduced and then eased into the show was nearly perfect. But when it doesn't work (imo, Lindsay or Natalia), it can be a nightmare.
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Ryan is a perfect example of a great way to introduce a new character. The only cheap shot they took with him was about how he cleaned his gun obsessively when Speed didn't, but other than that, Ryan hit the ground running. He was eager, but not too eager--until later on, once he settled in, and then he got downright ambitious. And I liked that too--it showed him as flawed, but believable.

I think it's great that Lindsay has her fans, and I wish I could say I was one of them, but I can't. That really bothers me too because this is one of my favorite shows, and I want to like all the characters, but in this case I can't. Hopefully that'll change next season.
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One of the perceptions I've seen around that bothers me is that people "want to" dislike this character. Believe me, no one wants to dislike or be irritated by a character on a show they like. I want to love all the characters. Maybe I like some more than others, but on most of the shows I watch I really do love the characters. Or I hate the bad guy types we're supposed to hate.

I don't want to dislike Lindsay. I'd like to see her become a real character with some genuine depth if they're going to keep her on the show. I'd like to see Anna's acting improve a bit. I hope that improvements can be made. But if she's a bad fit, and it doesn't seem like she can improve, then yes, the show is better off without her.
 
Top41 said:
One of the perceptions I've seen around that bothers me is that people "want to" dislike this character. Believe me, no one wants to dislike or be irritated by a character on a show they like. I want to love all the characters. Maybe I like some more than others, but on most of the shows I watch I really do love the characters. Or I hate the bad guy types we're supposed to hate.


I don't want to dislike Lindsay. I'd like to see her become a real character with some genuine depth if they're going to keep her on the show. I'd like to see Anna's acting improve a bit. I hope that improvements can be made. But if she's a bad fit, and it doesn't seem like she can improve, then yes, the show is better off without her.
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I'm with you on the liking/disliking part. I used to be really into ER and I hated Dr. Romano. But in a good way. I disliked that character so much that I loves every scene with him, because you just he knew he'd be a total jerk. (slightly off-topic)

Now, Lindsay is something of a tough case. When she was first introduced, I immediatly liked her. She put up with all the joking about her coming from Montana (which was a lot) and she always puts energy into what she's doing (like the pig experiment or the time she got to use the bow).

What I don't like is what the writers did to her. She came in with a bang - and now she's somewhat left hanging in the air. Lindsay - so far - hasn't gotten the depth she deserves. She's IMO where she started off. She's "Montana", her perpetual nickname, she flirts with Danny in an OCD-like manner, like that is all she's capable of. Talk about trying too hard!

Was she introduced too early? Hell, yeah! Why not try to work without a replacement for Aiden - seeing that Hawkes is out in the field now? The team would've still been big enough.
I think Lindsay would have been better off if she was introduced in the next season. Give the writers the opportunity work on established characters first, then create new ones, if necessary.

I'm not saying she has to go, because I still like her. But I'm slowly losing interest in her. And quite frankly, the scenes where she's flirting with Danny slowly bore me. It just seems so forced. The whole character just seems forced to me recently, as though no-one really knows what to do with it, how to explore it. What is a shame.


I hope I made some sense, it's late, but I needed to get that out of my system. G'night.
 
I hate to admit this but after seeing Anna's interview on CTV's e-talk Daily, the woman is just not acting. A prime comparison for this would be seeing how Eddie and Gary fared in it then Anna. I was totally disappointed. Yes I still love the ship, but maybe it's because of what it could be.
 
LiquidCrystal said:
I hate to admit this but after seeing Anna's interview on CTV's e-talk Daily, the woman is just not acting. A prime comparison for this would be seeing how Eddie and Gary fared in it then Anna. I was totally disappointed. Yes I still love the ship, but maybe it's because of what it could be.
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I have to say, I feel the same way. I think it could have been really cute, and there was/is definitely potential there. I love the idea of someone coming to the city and falling for the city and at the same time falling for someone who has the potential to broaden his/her horizons. Some of my favorite pairings on television are unlikely matches--Christina and Burke on Grey's Anatomy, Buffy and Spike on Buffy, Pacey and Joey on Dawson's Creek, Fred and Gunn on Angel...I could go on because the list is quite long.

I just don't feel any depth to Lindsay, and I think that's a combination of the acting and the writing.

Some people claim Flack is underdeveloped--something I strongly disagree with--but Eddie knocks it out of the park with every line he's given and shows just what Flack is feeling. Eddie is an easy-going, laid back type, but you really don't see that on the show because that's not who Flack is, though he can at times be light-hearted. Eddie just gives his all in every scene he's in and shows that there is a real depth to Flack.
 
You don't even see Danny asking HER any questions (other than are you hungry)...and the questions we get from her are always regarding a case...the interacts do reveal a lot about Danny but I think that's 75% Carmine's acting.
 
LiquidCrystal said:
You don't even see Danny asking HER any questions (other than are you hungry)...and the questions we get from her are always regarding a case...the interacts do reveal a lot about Danny but I think that's 75% Carmine's acting.
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LiquidCrystal , you brought up something else about Danny and Lindsay's interactions that bother me. Danny is constantly asking her to go out to eat and she always turns him down, or rather doesn't even answer him, but goes back to whatever case she/they are working on. However, she is continually flirting with him, on some level. What are the writers trying to convey with this? I can remember on at least two episodes that this has happened. That Lindsay is playing hard to get? The man may just want to eat, or its one of the writers attempts to have Danny/Linday interaction?
 
ThumpyG said:
LiquidCrystal said:
You don't even see Danny asking HER any questions (other than are you hungry)...and the questions we get from her are always regarding a case...the interacts do reveal a lot about Danny but I think that's 75% Carmine's acting.
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LiquidCrystal , you brought up something else about Danny and Lindsay's interactions that bother me. Danny is constantly asking her to go out to eat and she always turns him down, or rather doesn't even answer him, but goes back to whatever case she/they are working on. However, she is continually flirting with him, on some level. What are the writers trying to convey with this? I can remember on at least two episodes that this has happened. That Lindsay is playing hard to get? The man may just want to eat, or its one of the writers attempts to have Danny/Linday interaction?
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That's bothering me as well. Actually, the whole relationship bothers me, as Danny's always given the impression that he never lets anyone get too close. Having him all chummy and joking about marriage is...weird. I like him as a petulant brat, as you never know what he's going to do next.

There's no definition, no continuity. Lindsey is vunerable and out of place one minute, then hostile and abrupt the next. I think it'd work a lot better if they decided what Lindsey's role and character was, then ran with it. I like her best when she's working, preferably away from Danny.

If they insert some cutesy scene in "Run Silent, Run Deep", I will go squarely mad. Seriously. If Danny and Stella are out of commission, we're going to need to see more from Hawkes and Lindsey. Mac can't run two cases on his own.
 
See I never saw the marriage question as a joke or flirting...I saw it as him testing the waters, to see what her reaction would be, or even "oh crap she might actually be the one", which WOULD be consistant with what he said to Mac in Til Death do We Part. I see it as he's more serious about her, but she's just infatuated with him. Don't know if that makes sense, but then it doesn't really belong in here. I want the interactions less superficial, some more personal questions/comments with some depth. Okay, I'm done.
 
i am relatively new to NY so i cant be an expert on this subject, so forgive me if any of info is off

i happen to really like lindsay, she is actually the reason i started watching NY, i cant really speak for what NY was like before she came because i have only scene as many reruns as new eps, but i love her interaction with the others

a lot of you have said that she acts like a child sometimes, i agree with you, but for a different reason, it really is the truth, i know that sounds weird, but how many of you have moved from a place so secluded as montana, and gone to such a different environment as NY and not needed a lot of help

im not critisizing any of your opinions, but they really are two different worlds, being new would cause anyone to look for validation that you are fitting in, i think thats what she is looking for, a sense of belonging in a place that is so opposite from what she is familar with

as for the whole thing with danny, i am a mac/lindsay shipper so i dont like them just because of that, but other than that, they seem pretty good to me, i have never been one to complain much so i could be going easy, but i also dont know a lot about danny and how he normally is, but what i see is him trying to make her feel welcome, because if i were her, after with what happened with aiden, even though its not true, i would feel like i was the replacement and that some people might resent me for that, i think that danny can see that and he is simply trying to show her its not true

i have to agree with Lyn though, in that i dont think she should work a lot with danny, as fine as the scenes seem to me, i like her better with the others, im not sure what it is, but she seems rather OOC from what the writers have started to establish for her, what little it is, i would certainly like to see her get set with who she is

all in all, i like her and think that she should stay, but thats me ;)
 
I think that what I am wanting to say is if Lindsay is going to spew off football statistics to Danny (or whomever) that she is doing it, because she has a genuine interest in the sport, and not doing it as an attempt to flirt with Danny.

I want to know who she is, because it appears right now that she is a Mac ass-kissing, Danny-pleasing, girl.
 
My problem with the football quotes was - if she's genuinely interested in it, then show it. When I talk about something I love, I get animated - my eyes sparkle, my hands flap, I talk faster. I show it. Random example - Mac in "Tanglewood" when he's talking about being in the Marines. When you love something, you can't help demonstrating it.

When you're reiterating something you've learned off by heart beacuse you had to, it sounds deadpan.

The football stats sounded deadpan. I'm sorry.
 
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