Why Lindsay Must Go (Part 3)

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Faylinn, Mar 17, 2008.

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  1. vegaslights

    vegaslights Brute

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    :lol::lol::guffaw::guffaw:

    Her responses killed me. Specifically:

    ""I like the role and I like the part."

    Yeah, I know it doesn't sound that funny, but Anna's answers are so gosh darn boring and reflect her personality to a T. I don't even see why she does interviews. She just embarrasses her self.
     
  2. Faylinn

    Faylinn Adam Fangirl Super Moderator

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    I think "breath of fresh air" is Lindsay's official description by now. :rolleyes:

    Also, New York has a "sombre" vibe?? :wtf: And here I thought it was a vibrant city. I don't know what "vibe" Lindsay brings, but I don't want it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2008
  3. Shytownmofo

    Shytownmofo Lab Technician

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    Wow! Anna needs to get over herself posthaste. Perhaps her acting range is extremely limited. That's why she can't be glamourous.

    (That comment Anna made in the interview just reeks of self importance and arrogance.....definitely rubbed me the wrong way. Hence the innappropriate name calling, which has been removed...)

    "Unassuming and a breath of fresh air?" only if a grandiose ego is unassuming and a fart is a breath of fresh air.

    I think we may have found the reason that Hawkes never gets good storylines. Maybe the writers haven't forgiven him for putting in a good word for Anna.

    BTW, it's not necessarily that I don't like Lindsay Monroe, it's just that I have no feelings for her one way or the other. I could care less about her, whether she lives or dies. The promo for "Taxi" or "Personal Foul" where it it made like she was going to get into the cab, I was like "So?"

    She's never made me feel her pain one way or the other. Everyone else has. Nothing comes across. I see her crying and I don't care. Not a bit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2008
  4. Kimmychu

    Kimmychu Coroner

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    Agreed to everything mentioned. The part where she says 'she's who she is and if they want something else they're not going to get it' reeks of self-importance to me, especially in context of what else she said. It was as if she was implying, "So what if TPTB wants me to be different even though they sign my paychecks? This is me, if they don't like it, I don't care because I am just awesomesauce like that, NYAH."

    And yeah, I heard that being said in the voice of a petulant, spoilt brat. My brain won't let me hear it in the voice of a 36-year-old mother.

    :guffaw: Hear, hear! I have no idea where the hell she got the 'super-glamorous' idea from. Does that mean she presumes the other characters on the show are 'super-glamorous' and that she's dull? Which brings me to the other question of, then does that mean she knows she's dull and is subtly telling people to 'deal with it' as if it's her right to do whatever she wants when TPTB is the one who calls the shots?

    Gee, last I checked it ain't smart to continuously bite the hands that feed you, much less the ones around you who won't mind seeing you go after years of using others as props for your supposed awesomeness, ya know? :guffaw:

    So, a list of personality disorder traits can apply to anyone? Sure, if it was some random list of traits that's so general it'll fit anybody who reads it. There's a reason why there are lists, specific lists for specific disorders, so people have at least a basic knowledge of what outstanding traits may be for each personality disorder. Shytownmofo didn't just copypaste at random, he gave information specifically on NPD as I gave information specifically on BPD. I really do no see how BPD or NPD (or any other PD) can 'be interpreted to apply to anyone'.

    Here are Shytownmofo's examples (and additional ones by me) of Lindsay exhibiting NPD, along with the NPD traits this time:

    1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance

    In "Manhattan Manhunt" when she was sent back to the Lab - She directly objected to Mac for ordering her to return to the labs, even when it turned out to be for 'her own good'. You've gotta be pretty full of self-importance to defy your new boss' orders when you've only worked for him for a while. She didn't do this just once either. She really showed her grandiose sense of self-importance in season four too when, again, she objected to Mac inferring that it was irresponsible of her for abandoning evidence and assumed Danny would clean up after her as if he was her slave whose job was to wipe away all her messes or something.

    2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

    Geez, do I even have to mention examples for this one?! Her clingyness to Danny, anybody? Her Monologue of Doom that so heavily implied how important she felt she should be to Danny and how he could only go to her on her own terms? Heh, this one fits with symptom 1 too. Don't even get me started on her telling him 'how hard it is to love him', especially in light of what he was still going through and what she was unjustifiably angry at him for, merely turning down lunch! Oh yeah, Lindsay's preoccupied with 'ideal love', alright, to the point she emotionally abuses Danny just to try conforming him to her expectations of that 'ideal love'! :mad: @#$% that!

    3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique

    :guffaw: Hey, Fay, I believe your term 'special snowflake' applies here, huh? Think dumpster duty in "Bad Beat" She even said "This new girl stuff has GOT to stop." Don't forget the bugs in "Fare Game". (Unfortunately for her, her special snowflake bubble got burst in that scene when Danny ate the bugs too. Along with a Peruvian worm or two.)

    And again, her Monologue of Doom. Why else would she have railed on Danny the way she did if she didn't think she was 'special'? Her monologue literally screamed, "I AM a clingy, shallow girlfriend! But I'm SPECIAL and you should acknowledge that because YOU'RE NOT WORTHY OF MY SPECIAL AND UNIQUE LOVE." :guffaw: (I still think it's friggin' hilarious she called herself clingy and shallow and didn't realize how true it is!)

    4. requires excessive admiration

    In "Dancing With the Fishes" the experiment scene, where she put the "odor gel" under Mac's nose and did the thing with the Hydrogen Sulfide. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that doing this is a hazard because it's poisonous. So Lindsay doing this to her boss only in order to get his attention and show off her mad skeelz? If that's not requiring excessive admiration, I dunno what is. At the risk of her boss' life too! There was also her climbing into the boot of the car in episode 4x17 just to show off what she'd discovered to Mac. Mac's, "Ugh, whatever," face when she did that says it all. :lol:

    5. has a sense of entitlement

    Once more, her Monologue of Doom is the finest example of this. A child Danny cared for a lot died in his care, and all she can complain about is how he never went to her for her support on her own terms? She even had the nerve to heavily imply that it's all his fault that her 'fantasy ideal love' with him is over and that she 'has to get over it'. :rolleyes: Did I mention her entitlement is so huge that she ended up doing to Danny for weeks what she accused him of doing to her? Hypocrisy, thy name is Lindsay Monroe.

    There was her pointed curiosity about Aiden in "Heroes" too. Aiden just died, a horrible death at that, and the only thing Lindsay was interested in was 'what Aiden's relationship with Danny was'?! Yeah, way to be concerned and oh so not digging for info on Danny's raped and murdered close friend just to try getting into his pants. That's pretty disgusting self-entitlement right there.

    6. is interpersonally exploitative


    Her treatment of Danny is, as usual, the best example since he's her prop all this time. Think her making Danny talk to the grieving mother in "Oedipus Hex". Danny got slapped by the mother for that. The fact that, later on, she did go talk to a grieving mother ended up making her look bad rather than achieve some 'closure' that Lindsay had gotten over her phobia of grieving mothers or something. It really was as if she just couldn't be bothered talking to the mother earlier on and manipulated Danny into doing her job for her instead.

    Then there's her manipulativeness and emoness in Season 3. The way she treated Danny could almost be regarded as emotional abuse. The way she treated him in season four was definitely emotional abuse. You gotta be pretty low to make a person feel like utter crap over your own problems when he's still grieving over the death of a child.

    7. lacks empathy

    One of the best examples I can think of is the way the little girl who'd been shot in episode 4x06 acted towards her. To her credit, Lindsay attempted to give the girl a teddy bear but all it took was one look from the girl, and Lindsay ended up just standing there with this blank expression on her face as if she tried but couldn't figure out what the girl felt. Couldn't connect.

    Danny, on the other hand, simply had to talk to the girl in a soft, comforting voice and boom, connection. You'll notice in the scene that the girl also reacts in a much warmer way towards him.

    Again, lack of empathy for Danny when Ruben was killed. I don't buy that she was so worried about Danny when he didn't answer her phonecalls. She did say to Flack she was worried, but based on her behavior in past seasons, it came off to me more like she was unhappy that he was ignoring her and she wasn't getting the attention she wanted from him and finally had it. It's always all about her. Also note the way she reacted after she told Mac 'Danny was sick' to explain why he wasn't at the labs. Her eyelid flutter came off as if she was annoyed something Danny did had caused her to lie to their boss and that he was going to owe her for it. She certainly made sure Danny knew that later on, didn't she?

    Gee, Lindsay, forgot him taking your shift and getting beaten the crap out of him by Irish mobsters real quick, didn't you?

    And yeah, her sudden inability to deal with grieving mothers, not to mention her not having any friends apart from Danny (heh, after season four, probably not even him anymore) after years of being in NYC. I guess it is difficult to make friends when you think the entire world revolves around you and everything has to follow your every expectation, hm? :p

    8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

    For some reason, this one makes me think of her in season four when Adam was trying to fit that 3D jigsaw puzzle together. He had to do it on his own until Mac showed up to check on things and all of sudden, there Lindsay was, jumping in to 'help' Adam when Mac was there. It came off to me as if she was envious of the possibility of Mac giving Adam any praise for his work and wanted to be the one to get the praise instead, hence her jumping in to help only when Mac showed up. And again, her asking about Aiden. Why else ask about what Danny's relationship was like with Aiden if she wasn't envious of what could have gone on between them, however slight?

    And back to Adam, her telling him he's 'socially awkward'. Considering Adam's mentioned dating Suicide Girls, I doubt he's as socially awkward as Lindsay likes to think. Them Suicide Girls, they don't go for just anybody, ya know. :lol: Heh, considering Lindsay's the one who has zero friends apart from clinging onto Danny, she's the one who's really socially awkward. Hence why her saying to Adam what she did came off as envy to me. It's possible the writers may have intended that scene as a bantering one to 'connect' Lindsay with Adam, but all it did was make Lindsay bitchy towards Adam and show her own insecurity about herself.

    9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

    Her hunting down where Mac plays bass. Now, it comes across a bit creepy and stalkerish. And she did it just to shove it into Danny's face that 'he didn't know Mac as well he thought he did'. Way to be childish! "Trapped" where she had to look in the pool of lube she was not happy about it at all ... hell, everything above! :guffaw:

    If anyone has other examples, feel free to post them! I also came across this website with an article on How to Recognize a Narcissist. It's fascinating reading, especially the following:

    Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you.

    That fits Lindsay's treatment of Danny in season four down to a tee.

    The instant I read that line, I swear the word 'redundant' flashed in my mind in capital, blinking neon lights.

    Yeah, serious WTF at NYC having a 'somber' vibe! It is possibly one of the liveliest, most multi-cultural cities in the world. If you wanna talk character-wise, can you imagine Danny or Flack or Adam being somber? :guffaw:

    :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw: It is bad that I can buy that reason in all seriousness. Poor Hill. His character did get shafted by Lindsay ever since season two. Zuiker himself acknowledged it.

    (Long post is loooooooong.)
     
  5. WhosLaughingNow

    WhosLaughingNow Lab Technician

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    I'm guessing she's feeling this way due to the massive amounts of negative energy that encircles her character. Therefore making everything that surrounds her appear sombre to her.:rolleyes:

    She just needs a good aura cleansing.
     
  6. Elsie

    Elsie Shopaholic

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    Name calling is not OK. This isn't just directed at you Shytownmofo, but everyone needs to remain on the topic at hand, and whilst that will obviously most likely include discussion of Anna's acting ability and her portrayal of Lindsay there is no need for the name calling or subtle digs at the actress herself. It isn't helpful or constructive.
     
  7. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    ^I just want to echo what Elsie said. We have a ton of very eloquent, thoughtful, intelligent people in here, and I think any points made come across better and stronger without personal insults.

    I think that's what bugs me. If we were supposed to dislike Lindsay or see what she was doing as negative, I'd be intrigued. Take Amber--aka 'Cutthroat Bitch' on House. Aside from House, she might be my favorite character ever on that show. She was manipulative, conniving, ambitious and out for herself. She had a good side, too, but you didn't see much of it until later. But I loved her character because she was complex and interesting and yeah, more than a little bit shamelessly bitchy. :lol: Part of it was the way the character was written, and part of it was Anne Dudek's awesome performance.

    My point is, what's irritating about Lindsay is that we're supposed to like her, but she's not likable. She's self-important and arrogant and manipulative. If she and the writers owned that, it would be one thing, but instead we see her behave selfishly and see people who should know better, like Mac and Stella, continue to think the sun shines out of her ass.

    :lol: So true. I'd love to see Flack chew her out, because she is being emotionally abusive to Danny. Why didn't she come to him and say, "I feel like you're shutting me out and all I want to do is help you." That would have made her pretty darn sympathetic in the eyes of the audience, even those of us who dislike her. But no, she has to go off on him and try to make him feel bad for daring to not turn to her in his time of grief. Essentially she adds more guilt to someone already grappling with a truckload of it. How does that make her in any way likable or sympathetic?

    Flack needs to kick her ass. :lol: ;)

    Even more than that stale line, what sticks out to me is the "girl-next-door charm" phrase. I do think she was supposed to bring that to the show, but she lacks it completely. Look at Katie Holmes/Joey from Dawson's Creek--that's 'girl-next-door charm.' Anna doesn't have the warmth necessary for 'girl-next-door charm.' Lindsay is brittle and hard where she should be fun and light. The 'girl-next-door charm,' whatever little of it there was, departed midway through season two.

    I know that comes off as arrogant, but I think what she's trying to say is that the show was looking for someone who was more of an everygirl--not the most gorgeous girl in the room--and she fits that. The problem is, she's far from the best everygirl they could have gotten.

    Part-time likely means that they adjusted her hours and schedule around her time with the baby. She's probably not working the 2am night calls.

    I keep coming back to this, too--what annoys me the most is that this character could have been likable. She could have been a breath of fresh air. But thanks to miscasting--and yeah, the fact that she wasn't a breath of fresh air really is mostly due to miscasting rather than the writing (Melina manages to charm and convince no matter what crap gets thrown at her)--Lindsay is simply this show's albatross.
     
  8. Shytownmofo

    Shytownmofo Lab Technician

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    Sorry, My bad. Poind definitely taken, and I've removed the inappropriate name calling from my post. It will not happen again.
     
  9. Kimmychu

    Kimmychu Coroner

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    Ah, well, I guess TPTB suddenly canonizing Lindsay as having some mental disorder won't happen anytime soon, huh? I think it's incredibly ironic how a character who's supposed to be 'well-liked' to the point of the sun shining out of her ass :)lol:) has now ended up fitting a personality disorder like Narcissistic Personality Disorder to a tee. What happened, TPTB?! If we can see that something's wrong, don't tell me you guys don't!

    Hmmm. Is it possible then, that TPTB may have decided to change Lindsay's character by episode 4x16? The whole 'happy perfect heart' thing was even before the season premiere aired, and from that episode, we already saw signs of Danny not being as happy-wappy with Lindsay as TPTB wanted us to think.

    The whole Monologue of Doom was what made me wonder whether she is meant to be a mean character now. You're right, all it takes is for different wording to change the entire context of the scene ... but TPTB decided to go for the self-centered, guilt-tripping route instead. Totally doesn't make sense if TPTB still expected us to find her likable.

    Which is probably why TPTB went into super overkill mode with the Montana reference, huh? :guffaw: "Yeah! If we remind the audience over and over and over again about Lindsay being from Montana, they'll believe she's from Montana because she says so!!!" :rolleyes:

    :lol: Yeah, see, now if she actually was the best TPTB could have gotten, that'd be a different story. As it is (considering we are now on the third WLMG thread too), her trying to imply she's exactly what TPTB was searching for is ... not making her look good. And yeah, a difference in wording could have left a more positive impression too. Why didn't she say, "I think they were hoping for a character who's an 'every-day' girl and not super-glamarous, and they felt that I fit the role," or something like that? Why say, "That's who/what I am and if they're expecting something else they won't get it."?

    Yeah, it certainly comes off as arrogant and maybe even childish to some degree. Kinda like a six year old kid who thinks she's already perfect and that the world should conform to her opinions, ya know? :lol: (And interestingly enough, an NPD website I came across actually likened NPD sufferers to six-year-old kids, but that's another discussion entirely.) I also get this vibe that she might be over-identifying with her character. Anyone else get that?

    Not gonna lie, still happy she's only working part-time. :p If full-time means more Lindsay, no thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  10. JellyBelly

    JellyBelly Lab Technician

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    Honestly, I think the Anna bashing needs to stop. It's one thing believing that a fictional character displays signs of a mental disorder but quite something else when you start blurring the lines between the character and the actor. I can accept people's criticism of her acting even though I don't agree with most of it but recent posts about the actor's character have just been taken too far. Wrapping it up in 'that's another discussion entirely' (as I have frequently seen in this thread when people want to bash Anna in a way that is acceptable to board rules) is still unacceptable imo.

    Up until recently I have enjoyed the debates in this thread and find it invigorating to have discussions with people who share different views to mine. Now though I am finding the personal nature of some of the comments re. Anna offensive.
     
  11. vegaslights

    vegaslights Brute

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    I honestly don't see Kimmy's post as bashing. However, seeing as you like Anna, you'll see it a different way. Kimmychu is connecting the ways she thinks sees fit as Personality Disorder towards Lindsay, and seeing how Anna might be portraying that towards Lindsay. At least, that's how I'm seeing it. ;)

    And Top41, you're so right about Anne Dudek on House. She, besides Lisa Edelstein and Hugh Laurie (oh, and can't forget Robert Sean Leonard) was just the greatest. All those things that you mentioned just made the character for me, and she was my favorite for a long while. It was a shame what happened to her. :(
     
  12. Faylinn

    Faylinn Adam Fangirl Super Moderator

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    I take "that's another discussion entirely" to mean "that's off-topic from what I'm discussing right now"/"that's off-topic for this thread" (depending on the occasion). I took Kimmy's comment in parentheses to be something she thought of that related to her previous posts about personality disorders, and sharing that comment, but also pointing out that it's not relevant to what she was saying at the time regarding Anna.

    I can't say for sure what Kimmy did mean by her comments, of course, since I'm not her, and there's always the problem of how people interpret things versus what they actually mean (and unfortunately, people might be offended either way).

    There's also the issue that people in this thread don't actually know Anna and, in a sense, she is no more 'real' than Lindsay in some respects. All we can comment on is what is presented to us (such as interview comments), and while I don't think anybody is aiming to be insulting, other people might take it personally anyway. What might be an offhand comment to one person might feel like a cutting remark to someone else.

    ***

    My take on the comment in question from the interview (the "if they wanted something else they are not going to get it" part) is that it might have been meant in jest, it might have been badly worded--who knows. It's hard to gauge tone and intent with written words (as it is sometimes hard to gauge tone and intent on a message board, for that matter). Regardless of how it was meant, I didn't find it endearing when I read it. Ultimately: I don't like Anna's acting and I think she comes across badly in interviews.

    As for her being on more of a part-time schedule because of the baby: all the better, I say, from the standpoint of a viewer. Theoretically speaking, she should still have an impact even with fewer scenes (Sid and Adam are proof of this), so if she's doing a 'jaw-dropping' job of it, we'll still see that in all its glory. And quite frankly, the idea that she isn't working as much, therefore probably isn't in the show as much, therefore I don't have to watch her as much--I guess that's as good as I can hope for at the moment since I doubt she'll be leaving the show any time soon.

    (I feel awkward referring to someone's child as 'the baby' or 'the girl' because it feels like I'm talking about an abstract object, not a specific person. But that, of course, is not only random--it's another discussion entirely*.)



    * in the 'off-topic for this thread' way. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  13. Kimmychu

    Kimmychu Coroner

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    Yeah, I meant it about Lindsay, not Anna. That's why I put it in parentheses and added 'another discussion entirely'.

    That too.

    And also this.

    You just had to bring back that 'jaw-dropping' line by Zuiker, didn't you? :lol: But yeah, I definitely agree about the amount of time not having an impact on the quality of acting. As you mentioned, Sid and Adam are proof of it, good ones too! Adam's just a recurring character right now but he's already left such a great impression on viewers. Hey, his submission for a possible Emmy nomination is evidence of that. ;)
     
  14. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Ok, to clarify the stuff about criticizing the actress. Just in general, so this doesn't keep coming up:

    What's OK: Analyzing her work on screen, interpreting her comments in interviews, talking about her skills as an actress.

    What's Not OK: Calling her names, implying anything about her personality outside of the show or her professional work.

    Again, I think we've got a great thread here with great points, so the more we stay away from mud-slinging, the better. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. Again, Anna's work as an actress is up for discussion because that's professional work, but remember she's a person with feelings, too. We shouldn't be implying anything negative about her personally, even from the interview. I think Fay put it best when she chalked it up to Anna not coming across well in interviews.

    I gotta say, the less Lindsay, the better, so they can keep her part-time for the rest of the show's run...unless they want to get rid of her. ;)
     
  15. privatename

    privatename Rookie

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    I have to second this. I read in other threads and I think someone has probably said it in this thread that Lindsay/Anna is warm and brings a softness to the show, but I really don't see it. I think Melina/Stella brings much more warmth and compassion and a softness when it is called for than Lindsay/Anna ever has.

    I also didn't think it came off as arrogant, but interpreted it along the lines of what Top41 said. I do feel she could have answered the question in a much better way. What I also thought was interesting is that she didn't really answer the question. Now maybe it was the way the interviewer wrote up the interview, but Anna was asked what she contributes to the show and all she could think of to talk about is what she doesn't bring to the show instead. Seems like an odd choice in an interview when you are presumable trying to sell your character and the show you are on as something you want people to watch and be interested in.
     
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