Why Lindsay Must Go (Part 3)

[JellyBelly]

Even canon relies on the perception of individuals.

I'm sorry but no, it doesn't. At least not in my opinion anyways, which is as follows...

Subtext relies on the interpretation of individuals who turn it into Perceived 'Canon' - the means by which shows make you emotionally invested in what you are watching and thus make you keep watching. The idea of shows is that people don't all get the same thing from them - it personalises the experience.

Perceived Canon should not be confused with Genuine Canon, which is nothing more than the established actions, events or dialogue, ergo - the facts. Percieved 'Canon' shared en masse is Fanon. No matter how large a group of believers in the same interpretation of events is, anything based on subtext is still nothing more than a divergence in opinion of what canon is based on a difference of perception.

Just my £0.02 worth...

I agree. That's kinda what I was trying to say, obviously not very eloquently tho. :lol:

Generally if a man has an opportunity to be with a woman he really loves, he won't sleep with someone else. That's why I interpret that he isn't in love with her; if what happened with Rikki happened in third season when Lindsay was putting him off, I wouldn't necessarily have reached the same conclusion. But Lindsay is there and saying she's in love with him, and he's not looking overly eager. He could be in love with her, but his behavior doesn't indicate that he is.

I agree, in fact research was recently published (in France I seem to recall) that found being in love to be the main factor in people being less likely to stray.

 

[Surreal_44]

is designed to insult, not present an intelligent argument. Surreal_44, what if I were to posit you like Lindsay because you are most likely a plain, socially awkward person without a lot of friends and you relate to her on that level and therefore give her a pass? Not very nice, is it. Making assumptions/accusations about other people's arguments or places where they're coming from is often used to conceal a weak position. Let's stick to the facts, please.

I really wasn't trying to be insulting. There are studies out there that demonstrate how physical appearance does indeed have bearing on how people are judged.

According to Dr. Gordon Patzer, who has spent more than three decades studying and writing about physical attractiveness, human beings are hard-wired to respond more favorably to attractive people. Even studies of babies show they will look more intently and longer at prettier faces.


"Good-looking men and women are generally judged to be more talented, kind, honest and intelligent than their less attractive counterparts," Patzer says. "Controlled studies show people go out of their way to help attractive people -- of the same and opposite sex -- because they want to be liked and accepted by good-looking people."

--Taken from here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/Careers/07/08/looks/

And a link to a discussion on the doctor's Physical Attractiveness Phenomenon: /http://www.gordonpatzer.com/

I really wasn't being nasty; I was basing my opinion on information I had read a few years ago in my psychology class. It's not a comfortable subject, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that people who may possibly like Danny more because he is more attractive than Lindsay are shallow, stupid people. Nor was I attempting to invalidate their opinion. I was simply pointing out that perhaps people are more easy-going on Danny based on his looks.

So I apologize if you felt I was being insulting or nasty. That was not my intent.

Moving onto if it's suggested that I may like Lindsay based on my own physical appearance and also based on character traits, I would say that it is a fair statement. People often like characters who share similar traits with them.

If you'd like to know: I consider myself fairly pretty, but now that I think of it, I'm probably considered plain. I don't think I'm socially awkward so much as I just don't really care about social situations, and no, I don't have many friends. But those aren't reasons (I don't think) that I connect with Lindsay.

For me, it's all based on experience and how she handles it. I see her reactions to things and I don't think "selfish", I see "doing what's necessary for survival". When you see "manipulating" I see "fear".

Experiences often lend themselves to what we like and dislike in a character as well, no?

And fair enough. It's definitely up for interpretation. I saw irritation in her expression. It's moments like this where I wish Anna were a more skilled actress, and could give us a real sense of who Lindsay is and what she's trying to get across.

But she didn't roll her eyes. At all. I don't really think it's a lack of acting on Ana's part so much as just a perception of her character. I'm not trying to be rude here; I'm just suggesting that perhaps your perception of the character also may alter your perception of the actor in a negative way.

That was a manipulative move on her part. Rather than saying to him, "Danny, can you talk to the mother? I'm not good with mothers," she made him feel like the bad guy ("Sure, stick Lindsay with all of the jobs no one else wants") so that he would do it for her. It played on his feelings for her, and that was just low.

I don't think she was using his feelings for her; I think it was knee-jerk reaction of fear and an unwillingness to do the job that made her say it. I can't say that I saw any calculation or coyness in the statement. To me she seemed utterly terrified/angry that she had to deal with a grieving mother, and her one and only focus was to avoid it.

But I'll rewatch the scene again and see if I missed some sort of manipulation.

Cristina is another great example--she's abrasive and cold at times, but I really like her. She's real, and Sandra Oh is just a great actress.

What show/movies are they from? :lol: I seriously don't watch much tv.

 

[Top41]

is designed to insult, not present an intelligent argument. Surreal_44, what if I were to posit you like Lindsay because you are most likely a plain, socially awkward person without a lot of friends and you relate to her on that level and therefore give her a pass? Not very nice, is it. Making assumptions/accusations about other people's arguments or places where they're coming from is often used to conceal a weak position. Let's stick to the facts, please.

I really wasn't trying to be insulting. There are studies out there that demonstrate how physical appearance does indeed have bearing on how people are judged.

According to Dr. Gordon Patzer, who has spent more than three decades studying and writing about physical attractiveness, human beings are hard-wired to respond more favorably to attractive people. Even studies of babies show they will look more intently and longer at prettier faces.


"Good-looking men and women are generally judged to be more talented, kind, honest and intelligent than their less attractive counterparts," Patzer says. "Controlled studies show people go out of their way to help attractive people -- of the same and opposite sex -- because they want to be liked and accepted by good-looking people."

--Taken from here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/Careers/07/08/looks/

And a link to a discussion on the doctor's Physical Attractiveness Phenomenon: /http://www.gordonpatzer.com/

I really wasn't being nasty; I was basing my opinion on information I had read a few years ago in my psychology class. It's not a comfortable subject, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that people who may possibly like Danny more because he is more attractive than Lindsay are shallow, stupid people. Nor was I attempting to invalidate their opinion. I was simply pointing out that perhaps people are more easy-going on Danny based on his looks.

That wasn't quite what you said. I quote:

Originally Posted by Surreal_44
Given that many objections surround Lindsay's relationship with Danny, and that most (if not all of them) also are attracted to Danny, I think it is in fact fair to say that Danny's prettiness has as much to do with people liking him AND for them disliking Lindsay.

The implication of that statement is more, "People dislike Lindsay more because she's dating a guy they find attractive." That's not just saying, "People like Danny better because he's more attractive than Lindsay." We had an interesting discussion a few months back about whether people would be harder on Danny if he was a woman, and many said yes, probably. I'd be happy to discuss whether people are easier on Danny because he's more attractive than Lindsay. I'd even acknowledge it's probable.

But that's not what you were getting at. You trotted out the tired old, "People dislike Lindsay because they're jealous she's dating their TV crush!" Telling people they're jealous of a fictional character because she's dating another fictional character is both silly and insulting.

For me, it's all based on experience and how she handles it. I see her reactions to things and I don't think "selfish", I see "doing what's necessary for survival". When you see "manipulating" I see "fear".

Experiences often lend themselves to what we like and dislike in a character as well, no?

Absolutely. I'm sure your experiences inform how you view the character, just as mine do. I've known emotionally manipulative, pathologically selfish people like Lindsay.

But she didn't roll her eyes.

She did the "irritated eye flutter." I used to have a roommate who did that. It's a combination of annoyance and 'woe is me, I'm so put-upon.' At least in my experience.

I don't really think it's a lack of acting on Ana's part so much as just a perception of her character. I'm not trying to be rude here; I'm just suggesting that perhaps your perception of the character also may alter your perception of the actor in a negative way.

Just as I might think you're reading too much into a character that is whimsically and inconsistently written. We all have our biases. And, btw, it's Anna with two 'n's, not one.

I don't think she was using his feelings for her; I think it was knee-jerk reaction of fear and an unwillingness to do the job that made her say it. I can't say that I saw any calculation or coyness in the statement. To me she seemed utterly terrified/angry that she had to deal with a grieving mother, and her one and only focus was to avoid it.

It was a juvenile response made to someone on whose sympathies she knew she could play upon. I agree that it was spontaneous, but she knew who she was saying it to--that part was calculated. She never would have said that to Mac, for instance.

Cristina is another great example--she's abrasive and cold at times, but I really like her. She's real, and Sandra Oh is just a great actress.

What show/movies are they from? :lol: I seriously don't watch much tv.

Grey's Anatomy--for all its dramatic elements, it features well-rounded characters who aren't always sympathetic and likable, but are always real. Cristina Yang isn't always supposed to be likable. Were Lindsay written that way, I might be able to accept her as a character more readily. But the "poor Lindsay" agenda--how we're always supposed to feel bad for her, be it that she's oh so emotional over a case, having to testify at the trial of her friends' killer, or being rejected by Danny--leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth, especially given how many of her actions are unsympathetic.




[/QUOTE]

 

[Surreal_44]

The implication of that statement is more, "People dislike Lindsay more because she's dating a guy they find attractive." That's not just saying, "People like Danny better because he's more attractive than Lindsay." We had an interesting discussion a few months back about whether people would be harder on Danny if he was a woman, and many said yes, probably. I'd be happy to discuss whether people are easier on Danny because he's more attractive than Lindsay. I'd even acknowledge it's probable.

But that's not what you were getting at. You trotted out the tired old, "People dislike Lindsay because they're jealous she's dating their TV crush!" Telling people they're jealous of a fictional character because she's dating another fictional character is both silly and insulting.

Look, I don't want to be disrespectful, but that's NOT what I was saying. I own up to what I say. If I wanted to suggest that people dislike Lindsay only because she's dating Danny, I would say it.

If you want me to be totally honest, I will. I think that there is probably at least one person in the world (not on this forum, necessarily) who dislikes Lindsay solely because she's romantically entangled with Danny. I've seen it happen in other fandoms, so I don't think it's unrealistic that someone would fall into this category.

That said, I will repeat once again that I was not trying to insult people or imply that they are shallow.

I would be very interested to know if appearance of the characters maybe does change your view on them. I admit that it does for me; I am not really attracted to Carmine or Hill, and I tend to have very negative responses to their characters.

Absolutely. I'm sure your experiences inform how you view the character, just as mine do. I've known emotionally manipulative, pathologically selfish people like Lindsay.

Again, not to be disrespectful, but I don't think there is enough canon evidence to suggest that Lindsay is purposefully emotionally manipulative, and there is little to no evidence to suggest that Lindsay is selfish, let alone pathologically so.

She certainly is no more manipulative than Mac or Danny or even Stella are, and in the case of selfishness I think Danny probably wins hands down.

Also, not to get into a pissing contest over who has had the worst experiences, but I've known my fair share of manipulators and selfish people, and I gotta say Lindsay doesn't even come close to what they're like.

Just as I might think you're reading too much into a character that is whimsically and inconsistently written. We all have our biases. And, btw, it's Anna with two 'n's, not one.

Explain the whimsical and inconsistency to me. If you're going to talk about Season Three, we know that there was a cause for the mood swings. Danny seems to be having the same issue now, if I recall. He's grieving over Ruben, ignoring Lindsay then suddenly he's back to teasing/flirting with her at work and we still don't know what he feels for her.

I think both characters have been behaving as normal humans do; we all have our good days and bad days, and sometimes we have worse days. It's very consistent with human nature, which is to say that it isn't always consistent.

And thanks for letting me know about Anna's name. I'll probably forget later on. I'm horrible with names.

It was a juvenile response made to someone on whose sympathies she knew she could play upon. I agree that it was spontaneous, but she knew who she was saying it to--that part was calculated. She never would have said that to Mac, for instance.

Are you sure? What in canon says that she wouldn't have said it to Mac? And what supports your belief that it's calculated and not just a knee-jerk reaction to desperately not wanting to do something?

Lindsay has not been shy about being unenthusiastic about doing things to Mac before, even if she was resigned to doing it. Those are actually some of Lindsay's best scenes. I think if Mac had been there he probably would have made her talk to the mother, but I think he would have taken note of her reaction as well and had a little sit-down with her about it.

Grey's Anatomy--for all its dramatic elements, it features well-rounded characters who aren't always sympathetic and likable, but are always real. Cristina Yang isn't always supposed to be likable. Were Lindsay written that way, I might be able to accept her as a character more readily. But the "poor Lindsay" agenda--how we're always supposed to feel bad for her, be it that she's oh so emotional over a case, having to testify at the trial of her friends' killer, or being rejected by Danny--leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth, especially given how many of her actions are unsympathetic.

I suspected after I had posted that GA was "Grey's", but I figured I'd wait to be sure. I don't really like that show, so I can't discuss the characters and make comparisons.

I don't think that the writers are trying to make you go "Poor Lindsay" anymore than they try to get me to say "Poor Danny" or "Poor Mac" or "Poor Stella". I think they like to write angst and put most of the characters on the show through the wringer, and they succeed.

I'm surprised any of the characters can still function after everything they've been through. :lol:

 

[JellyBelly]

Absolutely. I'm sure your experiences inform how you view the character, just as mine do. I've known emotionally manipulative, pathologically selfish people like Lindsay.

Again, not to be disrespectful, but I don't think there is enough canon evidence to suggest that Lindsay is purposefully emotionally manipulative, and there is little to no evidence to suggest that Lindsay is selfish, let alone pathologically so.

She certainly is no more manipulative than Mac or Danny or even Stella are, and in the case of selfishness I think Danny probably wins hands down.

Also, not to get into a pissing contest over who has had the worst experiences, but I've known my fair share of manipulators and selfish people, and I gotta say Lindsay doesn't even come close to what they're like.

Hmmm, in terms of manipulation I have to agree that her behaviour probably was manipulative here, whether it was spontaneous or not (I think it was). The difference for me is that I don't see anything wrong with that. We all manipulate situations to suit us from time to time, we're all human. Take Danny in his scenes with Rikki, the artful manipulation of Rikki to get her to stay with him in an attempt at absolution. Sure, he was driven by trying to comfort her but ultimately he was seeking comfort himself through his comfort of her. I guess it could be argued that at least he was honest about it whereas Lindsay could be seen as playing on his feelings for her to get him to do what she wanted.

I'm pretty sure she did play on his feelings for her, I'm also pretty sure Danny knew that was what she was doing. After all he didn't give in that easily, he wanted to know why and the look on his face told her he knew she was playing him. That, to me, is probably what prompted her to later intervene with the mother.

Overall, I think her behaviour was understandable given the circumstances (her circumstances). If anything I like that she behaves like that at times, it gives a whole different dimension to her character that isn't apparent in any of the other's. Yes, Danny is flawed but he is consistently flawed. Lindsay IS inconsistent but I believe that fits with her character and her experiences. She does lack a certain degree of emotional maturity but imo Danny has been the most pivotal character to not only demonstrate that, but also to call her on it (potentially, more than in actuality). I'd love to see that played out more on screen.

I think one of my biggest concerns about the current storyline is that Danny is made to look like the bad guy while Lindsay is the damaged one. There's no escaping the fact they're both pretty damaged, but tptb really need to play this whole thing out in terms of them both being responsible for the state of their relationship for the current storyline to have relevance to us as viewers (and yes, I want Danny to call her on her treatment of him in S3). That opinion is irrespective of whether D/L are together or not.

 

[Faylinn]

Surreal_44 said:

I would be very interested to know if appearance of the characters maybe does change your view on them.

When I started watching CSI:NY, I didn't find anybody attractive--not Flack, not Danny, not Hawkes. I loved Sinise, and he's the reason I started watching the show, but I wasn't like 'ooh, Mac is a hottie.' For most of the first season, I didn't even like Danny as a character--he had to grow on me, and after the character himself grew on me, his looks did too. Same with Flack and Hawkes. I'm not the type to just go 'ooh, that actor is hot, so I'm going to like the character.' I wasn't the slightest bit attracted to AJ until I kind of fell in love with Adam as a character.

Basically, it was only after I started to like the characters that I bothered to acknowledge that the actors themselves were nice to look at (most people in Hollywood are attractive, so that has little meaning for me when watching television). So it's the character that influences how I feel about the character and, to an extent, how I feel about the actor as well.

But that might just be me.

When a character grows on me, and I'm more invested in that character, I give them more leeway, I care more about them, I tend to side with them over characters that I have no connection with as a viewer. Lindsay's had more of a chance to grow on me than Adam or Sid have, but it never worked. I wouldn't say it's because she's female because I like Stella and Angell, and I wouldn't say it's because she's 'flirted' with Danny because I like Rikki (as a character and as a potential love interest for Danny), and I like Angell in spite of her flirtation with Flack who is, of course, half of my personal OTP for the show.

Not that these points (namely Lindsay being female or in a relationship with Danny) were brought up, I'm just elaborating on what was said.

Tl;dr version: No, I don't think appearance affects how I feel about a character.

 

[JellyBelly]

Surreal_44 said:

I would be very interested to know if appearance of the characters maybe does change your view on them.

When I started watching CSI:NY, I didn't find anybody attractive--not Flack, not Danny, not Hawkes. I loved Sinise, and he's the reason I started watching the show, but I wasn't like 'ooh, Mac is a hottie.' For most of the first season, I didn't even like Danny as a character--he had to grow on me, and after the character himself grew on me, his looks did too. Same with Flack and Hawkes. I'm not the type to just go 'ooh, that person is hot, I'm going to like them.' I wasn't the slightest bit attracted to AJ until I kind of fell in love with Adam as a character.

Basically, it was only after I started to like the characters that I was open to acknowledging that the actors themselves were nice to look at.

But that might just be me.

It's not just you. I feel exactly the same way. I can look at someone and think they look nice but I certainly won't be invested in them without getting a good feel for their character. I'm like that in RL too.

 

[Faylinn]

I totally edited the heck out of my post. :lol:

It's not just you. I feel exactly the same way. I can look at someone and think they look nice but I certainly won't be invested in them without getting a good feel for their character. I'm like that in RL too.

Aaaand you perfectly summarized my feelings in a few sentences.

 

[Redsiren]

When a character grows on me, and I'm more invested in that character, I give them more leeway, I care more about them, I tend to side with them over characters that I have no connection with as a viewer. Lindsay's had more of a chance to grow on me than Adam or Sid have, but it never worked.

Absolutely agreed. Lindsay's had a LONG time to grow on me, and I feel absolutely NOTHING when she's on screen. Every single other character pulls me in some way, but even in her most trying of times, she doesn't pull me in at all. TPTB have even gone so far as to give her a back story BEFORE a character that's been there since the beginning (I'm thinking of Flack here) and it STILL didn't work for me. I feel more vested in watching Flack banter with say, Hawkes, than I do watching Lindsay.


But that's just me.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

Surreal_44 said:

I would be very interested to know if appearance of the characters maybe does change your view on them.

When I started watching CSI:NY, I didn't find anybody attractive--not Flack, not Danny, not Hawkes. I loved Sinise, and he's the reason I started watching the show, but I wasn't like 'ooh, Mac is a hottie.' For most of the first season, I didn't even like Danny as a character--he had to grow on me, and after the character himself grew on me, his looks did too. Same with Flack and Hawkes. I'm not the type to just go 'ooh, that person is hot, I'm going to like them.' I wasn't the slightest bit attracted to AJ until I kind of fell in love with Adam as a character.

Basically, it was only after I started to like the characters that I was open to acknowledging that the actors themselves were nice to look at.

But that might just be me.

It's not just you. I feel exactly the same way. I can look at someone and think they look nice but I certainly won't be invested in them without getting a good feel for their character. I'm like that in RL too.

There are a lot of people on this board who share these feelings. A lot of us probably remember reading multiple posts from multiple people that have already stated as such in a clear, well-written manner such as the above.

 

[origin-nknwn]

When I started watching CSI:NY, I didn't find anybody attractive--not Flack, not Danny, not Hawkes. I loved Sinise, and he's the reason I started watching the show, but I wasn't like 'ooh, Mac is a hottie.' For most of the first season, I didn't even like Danny as a character--he had to grow on me, and after the character himself grew on me, his looks did too. Same with Flack and Hawkes. I'm not the type to just go 'ooh, that person is hot, I'm going to like them.' I wasn't the slightest bit attracted to AJ until I kind of fell in love with Adam as a character.

Basically, it was only after I started to like the characters that I was open to acknowledging that the actors themselves were nice to look at.

But that might just be me.

It's not just you. I feel exactly the same way. I can look at someone and think they look nice but I certainly won't be invested in them without getting a good feel for their character. I'm like that in RL too.

There are a lot of people on this board who share these feelings. A lot of us probably remember reading multiple posts from multiple people that have already stated as such in a clear, well-written manner such as the above.

I certainly agree with this sentiment. I don't judge people IRL based on their looks, so why would I do that with a TV character? And let's be honest, most people on TV are pretty people...

 

[Surreal_44]

Faylinn You can answer this in the Danny thread, but what changed your opinion on Danny's character if he annoyed you in the first season? I'm not asking to argue; I'm asking because I too did not like Danny in Season One.

Question for everyone: Are we saying then that physical attraction has absolutely no bearing on how we perceive characters? Like if Danny had a beer belly, really crooked teeth and a comb-over you would still adore him as much as you do now?

If said beer-bellied man had the same acting skillz as Carmine does, would you still like Danny?

 

[origin-nknwn]

Question for everyone: Are we saying then that physical attraction has absolutely no bearing on how we perceive characters? Like if Danny had a beer belly, really crooked teeth and a comb-over you would still adore him as much as you do now?

If said beer-bellied man had the same acting skillz as Carmine does, would you still like Danny?

Actually, yes, I am saying just that. There are many characters in various shows that I like that I do not find even remotely physically attractive. Yet I still like the character and respect the talents of the actors who portray them. It is probable I'm in a minority here...

When it comes to being visually stimulated, humanity is about as shallow as its own gene pool. Such is life...

 

[Faylinn]

I might not think, 'If I were a fictional character in this fictional world with other fictional characters, I'd totally bang his hot, fictional self,' but I could still love him. Fact is, Danny wouldn't be Danny if he weren't attractive--it ultimately does play a part in his characterization--but a less attractive version of Danny could still be an interesting character.

That's not to say what someone looks like never affects someone's opinion of the character they play, but is that really the main issue here? I don't think Anna's as hot as, say, Emmanuelle (if I were in the same fictional world as Angell, I'd totally be her fictional, lesbian love slave), but I seriously doubt that I'm subconsciously hating on Lindsay because Anna isn't smexy enough. Sure, I'll acknowledge that she's not super-uber-gorgeous, but I can't remember ever using that as my sole reason for not liking her.

Surreal_44 said:

Faylinn You can answer this in the Danny thread, but what changed your opinion on Danny's character if he annoyed you in the first season? I'm not asking to argue; I'm asking because I too did not like Danny in Season One.

I can answer here and bring it back to Lindsay--Danny grew on me, simple as that. At first, I didn't get him. He was annoying. I didn't particularly like Aiden either. They were both just people I wouldn't have wanted to interact with. Maybe they were too abrasive, I dunno. Over time, I got used to their personalities and I guess it changed. I'm not sure when, I didn't have an epiphany--I just know that, eventually, dislike turned into indifference which ultimately turned into fondness.

With Lindsay, my initial mild curiosity and optimism eventually turned into boredom, pessimism and annoyance.

 

[JellyBelly]

Question for everyone: Are we saying then that physical attraction has absolutely no bearing on how we perceive characters? Like if Danny had a beer belly, really crooked teeth and a comb-over you would still adore him as much as you do now?

If said beer-bellied man had the same acting skillz as Carmine does, would you still like Danny?

It's down to the whole 'package' for me. If Danny had the above characteristics then I may or may not still adore him, I don't know. But if I did adore him then it may well be for different reasons (simply because he would be 'different'). I think looks can affect personality and vice verse. In fact I can recall a friend of mine first raving about Danny/Carmine back in season 1 and she showed me a still shot. He didn't strike me as overtly good looking but when I got into the show and got to know his character I found him tres sexy. That's the point really, I don't find it possible to break any character down into all the relevant parts and decide what it is I like or don't like about them. I have adored characters who are all shapes and sizes, just like I adore real people of all shapes and sizes. Some of the best people I know are not the best looking, equally some of the worst people I know might be the best looking, or not.

I agree we all have a tendency to judge people on how they look but for me it's about having an open enough mind and to be prepared to be surprised. It's not just about good looking/not good looking though, it can be about things such as confidence, charisma and even the more basic stuff like cleanliness etc. :lol: Sometimes you have no choice but to take people at face value but then, once you get to know them you'll change your opinion - for better or worse. But, I tend not to 'find' people attractive in the biblical sense until I at least get a basic grasp of their personality. Obviously that may depend on how many vodka shots I've consumed at the time though. :wtf: