Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

I don't think I could decide who was the most damaged because Danny's insecurities are so obvious most of the time even if it does he does get kind of annoying and whiney. At least you know what is bothering him.

Whereas lindsay is normally not so open about it.Which is ok for some people but it is clear she cannot cope with bottling it up. And also Lindsays personalities and her emotions always seem to be off, like in silent night she ran away over a crime scene but got peed off in manhattan manhunt ' was angry that she couldnt go to one, in fairness her 'big secret' probably wasn't written yet.But also other things can't really think of examples at the moment that just seem off with her.

And another thing that really annoys me (not very relevant but thought i'd mention it i'm all fired up lol) is she ALWAYS walks away. In LWFM when danny was talking she walked away, when he tried to tell her his feelings in... cannot remember the name of the episode and she brushed him off and walked away, in silent night at the crime scene and with stella she walked away, in the box after she told danny she was pregnant ... well you get my point. It is really annoying.

anyway i'm babbling on and am probably talking a load of rubbish lol

 

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement - she literally seems to need the aloofness to interact with people, or to deal with things emotionally. But it's not a healthy tool, not in the least. That's more what I was getting at about her not being equipped - she has a tool, but it's not at all effective in terms of emotional health.

So agree! I think she's been repressing emotions and shutting them away since she was at least 14 - yeah, I definitely think that's when the diner thing happened - and that's why they all seem so immature now when they do slip through. Emotional responses grow and change as people do, but if you never let yourself feel those emotions, I don't think they can grow with you.

And I definitely don't think she got the therapy she needed back then - which basically explains everything about her now. Maybe she didn't let anyone take her to therapy, because obviously a therapist would force her to feel those emotions, and by that point she'd already been shutting them away. She seems to desperately need those walls now, but they really have to be torn down. By more than just one (rather damaged himself) person.

Very true. I'd never really thought about why Lindsay moved to New York (aside from, you know, the writers needing to drag her there so she'd be available for Danny), but this makes a lot of sense. I don't know how old she was supposed to be in S2, but a lot of things in that season made me think she hadn't been a CSI for long. It makes sense that as soon as she got her degree and had a firm-enough foothold in a career to be able to survive elsewhere, she'd run from the one place she had emotional ties to.

I've seen the arguments about that text message being down to bad writing, but I have to admit that's always baffled me a little. I literally could not imagine a more in-character way for Lindsay to have told Danny about the sex of the baby, at least not in that episode. I don't think the text message was 'up to her', per se. I think that Danny knew she was going to the doctor's office that day, and had demanded to know the sex as soon as she found out. Hence the text - he could find out, while she could mentally compartmentalize without actually having to deal with him just yet. I think if it had been up to her, she would've called him to actually talk - but only after a few days, when she'd had time to process the news. She really seems to need those walls.

Yes, and I'm so in agreement about the Adam thing. I have noticed the times we see Lindsay lose it (as much as Lindsay can lose it, anyway) are also the times when things seem to be spinning out of her control. Plans are not falling safely into place the way she'd expected, or people are sliding out of their mental labelled compartments (read, Danny).

The Stella conversation actually gave me a lot of hope, as awkward as it was - Lindsay barely seemed to believe herself that she was actually telling Stella all this. Heck, Stella barely seemed to believe that Lindsay was actually spilling to her - hence the awkwardness of the scene, I don't think either knew how to approach each other. But the fact that Lindsay tried at all, and that she basically expressed a fear of not being able to try with her daughter...that gave me hope.

Lol, no, this makes perfect sense! Yeah, it's actually very hard to tell who is the more damaged one, Lindsay or Danny, because Danny - well, his pain oozes. With him, there's very clearly something wrong, but the thing is that people know there's something wrong, because he lets it show. He doesn't talk about it, maybe, but even silently he lets people know the pain is there. He's like glass, completely transparent. Whereas Lindsay, I think her emotions always seem to be off because she's opaque, and it's almost impossible to tell where she's coming from. She seems to think she's fine, for the most part, and puts all her effort into convincing everyone around her of the same. That way, things really will be fine. When her emotions seem to go off, people ask what's wrong and she fobs them off with a fake "I'm fine, leave me alone" -- and then break down crying in the morgue later.

And I really think that tendency to convince everyone she's fine has everything to do with why she's always running away (LWFM, The Box, Personal Foul, RND, Silent Night, Love Run Cold, even All Access to an extent...lol, this is so a pattern). She always needs to compartmentalize until she's distanced herself enough from the situation emotionally to convince people that she's fine.

Oh my gosh, yes! It's why I wish desperately that the writers could've just left them as friends, because that whole opposites-attract thing is one of the most fascinating dynamics on the show, and I think they could learn so much from each other if they weren't always messing each other up. I am not the least bit surprised that Danny is the only one to have even come close to getting under Lindsay's shell - emotion-wise, he seems to be the only one on the team capable of breaking through such a tough wall. Stella might be a distant second, but Stella isn't the livewire of emotion that Danny is. I don't think she's as capable of hurling herself at Lindsay's wall repeatedly, no matter how many times she gets bounced off of it, until she breaks through.

I agree, but I'd be fine with her past never being alluded to again, because I think she could grow from it without actually having to flash back to it. Or I'm hoping, anyway. And I definitely noticed that about Danny and Lucy, and Lindsay and Lucy. I found it rather significant that Lindsay even came to work at all with Lucy, leaving her safely with coworkers who would care for her while she could hide behind her own safe-wall of work. Not that I think Lindsay doesn't love her as much, but I'm not sure she knows how to show it any more than she did with Danny in S4. I just felt so badly for her during that speech in Greater Good, worrying about things that were very likely to come true (though yeah, I doubt we'll actually see it). But I'm hoping, because like Stella said, the fact that Lindsay was thinking about it at all was probably a good sign. Maybe she will go to therapy.

It's interesting what you said about space, because I've noticed that about Danny, too. Over the seasons, he's seemed to have learned very carefully how to give Lindsay just enough space so that she can still feel safe-in-a-personal-bubble, while not really giving her space at all. Like you said about the marriage thing, and again with the end of S4. It was annoying, but I did like that there was a gap between Like Water for Murder and Personal Foul before Danny tried again, and then after he pushed at the beginning of PF, he waited until the case was over until he pushed again. (Although I'm not sure whether this was just because the case was obviously more urgent.)

And I do agree about Lindsay needing to learn to go to Danny to give him the support - she needs to learn to do what he did, put himself on the line in an effort to help. Though I don't know whether she will ever be able to put herself out there to that extent, it would be nice if she learned at least a little bit from him. Of course, I think it would be easier to learn if she wasn't in this relationship with him.

True, I think Danny's dependence on people could be at least as dangerous as Lindsay's insistence that she doesn't need people. I guess people-wise, I can't see Danny as unhealthier, though. Because it's not good to depend that much on people, but at least if you do there's always the chance that they're going to want to support you and help you, and go through things with you. Not being able to reach out doesn't even give you that chance.

I don't know, he was kind of smiling when he said "I don't like where you're going with this" - and then she pushed, and he caved, then she (and Stella) laughed. And, well, you mentioned an interview with Eddie Cahill earlier where he said Flack wouldn't have put up with Lindsay's "yes-no" behaviour - I just can't picture the Flack we've seen putting up with any behaviour he found tiresome or irritating, no matter for whose sake it was. Certainly not for that long. I mean, he even told Angell off when she was getting on his case about airing their relationship at work, and in that case Angell had a legitimate complaint (though I think she could've picked a better time to get on his case).

...Nor can I really picture Danny holding it against Flack if he were to say something to Lindsay, honestly. At least, not at that point in S3 (Danny was still in the casual-interest phase, I don't think he'd've cared). I do agree, though, that Flack seems to get huffier when she teases him than he gets with anyone else - but then, not that many people aside from Danny in general (and Stella on occasion) tease him.

There is so much extra good stuff here, I'm sorry to cut out! But will definitely be back later, again

 

But I don't think it's that simple. Of course she needs to realize that the problem is there, but I don't think someone telling her off would do anything to tear down the walls. I saw Mac do this in LWFM. Maybe he did it more gently than he would with anyone else, but Lindsay still seemed to internalize the message as harshly as if Mac had shouted - have we seen her mess up at work even once since then? Sloppy-work-wise, or even complaining about a task? But of course this has done nothing to change her behaviour, if anything her walls only seem to have gotten thicker since the end of S4.

I think she at least needs to meet people halfway when they're trying to reach her, but Lindsay seems to need to be reached out to as much as Danny. Moreover, like him, it seems almost impossible to convince her that she's cared about. We've seen Mac and Stella show on several occasions that they care about her, but they've never made the ridiculously-persistent effort Danny did, and so she never seems to quite believe them. I think that persistent-effort is more important than people might think; because when Danny made it, Lindsay's walls did go down for him. They went down until Danny's came up full-force - and that's when hers went up again.

No, it doesn't bode well for their marriage (reason number 90843098 they shouldn't have gotten married). They don't communicate well, at least not in a good way for a relationship. In a half-way realistic universe, they'd already be divorced.

I think if someone did tell her off for being rude, she probably would be motivated to change - but just change the rude behaviour. I don't think it would actually fix the core problem - I think it would just make her more determined to stay hidden until she could interact with people without being rude. She'd adjust her behaviour so that people go back to thinking she was fine, but the problem would still be there.

Yeah, I guess I can see how Danny's coping mechanisms are more self-destructive - Danny always seems determined to just react, whereas Lindsay is almost obssesively committed to not reacting until she's thought things through with a cooler head. But the thing is, I think Lindsay is just as likely to break. I agree with the Ruben thing, but as far as we know, no one close to Lindsay has died since her friends when she was 14 - which is what started this whole problem in the first place. She thinks her coping mechanisms make her a tough survivor, but so far they've barely been tested, and even then have proven to be rather fragile. The trial for that murder (which happened maybe fifteen years ago) is the most traumatic thing we've seen her deal with, and she was practically on the verge of collapse with just that. If she'd had a boss less sympathetic than Stella, she could've lost her job. Danny is just as likely to break, but at least when/if he does, he'll have people there for him. It's not the same with Lindsay - maybe Danny will be there for her, assuming he's not the one who makes her break.

But when she has regrouped, she never seems quite "fine", not like she's recovered - she just seems to have distanced herself. I mean, after the S4 debacle she seemed recovered enough to talk to Danny - only her walls are still up, in a way that they weren't at the beginning of S4. I think at the very beginning of S4, had she gotten pregnant she wouldn't have waited six weeks to tell Danny. And recovered was the last thing she seemed to be in Love Run Cold, even though she was finally able to tell him why she couldn't keep up the flirtation.

I definitely agree that Danny being Danny is a large part of what got through to Lindsay...but then, I think Danny being Danny was the reason/cause for the multiple effort he seemed to put in. It's an effort that the other team members probably wouldn't have been able to make, because they don't feel as much as he does, if that makes any sense at all. But I do think if Danny wasn't the type to be that emotionally determined, he wouldn't've gotten through. I think the fact that he is that type is much of what fascinates Lindsay, but I mean, Lindsay knew how sweet he was back in Run Silent, and I agree she felt protective of him. It didn't stop her from holding him at a distance all the same.

Oh, it definitely speaks to his insecurities, but you know, I think that's something he has to get over too. At least as much as Lindsay needs to get over her bad coping mechanisms, if not more so. I know it's not that simple, there's an ingrained reason for those insecurities, but honestly, they're dragging both Danny and Lindsay (and Lucy, at this point) down into something really ugly. Lindsay's emotional-unavailability certainly doesn't help matters, but then, she's not the one who insists on continuing this farce of a relationship. She's more than susceptible to it (dangerously so, if you ask me - she seems to desperately want to have him any way that he'll allow it), but I think if he'd let her move on, she would move on.

I agree with this. I personally think that sometimes, Danny could really do with taking a leaf from Lindsay's book and stepping back to just think for a second before acting. But then, lol, he probably wouldn't be Danny. It seems like Lindsay is making baby steps toward putting herself out there for him, though. I had a lot of complaints about S5 D/L, but I did find that moment in the Blue Flu episode (where Danny said Lindsay'd been calling him every hour to see how he was holding up) interesting.

True about Danny being a 5-year-old a lot of the time. I can definitely agree that Danny's tendencies to be rash and impulsive could probably lead him to self-destruct faster. But I don't think it's true that isolation teaches you to be stronger - it actually takes far more strength to admit that you need help, and to reach out to people for it. I think Lindsay is every bit as likely to self-destruct (though probably not as quickly, 'cause she seems to make every effort not to reach that point), because she's only under the impression that she knows how to deal with her problems. And we've repeatedly seen how false that impression is.

LOL about the numbers :lol: But it's not like he was bragging to guys (who would probably be more impressed than Lindsay and Stella seemed to be), and it just seems to me that if he'd been truly irritated, he would've at least changed the subject rather than caving to Lindsay and giving her an edge. It's not like either she or Stella were that impressed, and Flack seemed to know it.

Oh yeah, but I can't believe that Flack finds Danny's behaviour irritating or tiresome. At least, not deep down - I think he finds it frustrating sometimes, but that usually seems to cancel out in light of how much he cares about Danny, and knowing what Danny's going through when he's being all those things.

Well, his favourite person is Danny And maybe Sam. The thing is, I can't really see his huffiness as impatience - maybe because he seems to leave himself open to her teasing so often. If he really was impatient with her, you'd think he'd learn after four years to simply not respond when Lindsay's making idle commentary. Tons of people usually let her comments go without responding. Why answer when she asked who could find a doll attractive?

I think I'd take the Personal Foul thing more seriously if he hadn't laughed at her cheerleader joke later in that same episode, though. Danny and Lindsay were on the outs then, there was no reason to be friendly.

 

To be honest I never considered her proposing to him as an option. That would have been fun, and would have given Danny the affirmation that he needed in order to feel secure. But I think she was right in not trying to control this one. She needed him to not be in blind reactionary mode and like she said, get married for the right reasons, not just because he got his girlfriend pregnant. In order for that to happen, she needed to step back from control mode and let him chew on it for a while. I see that as her being cautious, though, not cruel in any way.

Interesting point. He is definitely not the stereotypical male.

Okay, maybe savior complex is the wrong choice of terms here. But I think he definitely sacrifices himself in his attempts to be there for others when he feels either attached or responsible for their pain. He's done it with both Lindsay and Rikki. It's like he doesn't have any other option but to offer himself. And that is sad because how many times can he do that and retain any sense of self. And how vulnerable does it make him to getting hurt himself.

I really like the character of Flack too. I think the way she was able to poke fun at herself with the block parties in Wyoming in COTP gave him the greenlight to start treating her like one of the team. I didn't see any snarkiness in their comments in People with Money. I thought he saw the girls ganging up on him when Lindsay reiterated the question of how many numbers and responded in defense of that idea. The Laughing Larry moment was great in that finally, for once, Lindsay was on the inside of things, instead of always being odd man out and was actually interacting naturally with her peers. For someone that holds everything so close to the vest, we got a rare glimpse of her childhood. I also liked the two of them in Sex, Lies and Silicone because she felt comfortable enough with him to make him the butt of the joke. She rarely comes out that far from the castle walls with anyone but Mac so for her to initiate that kind of banter with him was a big deal for me.

But he didn't even have to lecture her. She lectured herself before he got a chance and he did sternly tell her that whatever was or wasn't going on between her and Danny... She got the message loud and clear and I wonder how much that factored into her not wanting to deal with talking about her's and Danny's issues after that.

I also saw approval in that scene from Mac since he told her to go back and try again, and she did and came to a different conclusion.

I think she had her hands quite full with the one she had:lol:. But you're right. From the moment she hit town, she didn't seem interested in guys at all. How much of that was writing I don't know, because it seems they had her pre-destined for Danny from the first rehearsal. I would like to see how she interacted romantically with at least one other guy to see if it was different from Danny. That would have been very telling I think.

I realize that we didn't see it or hear about it after the fact but the set up for it to happen was dead on accurate in my opinion. The fact that Mac can't get through to him, Lindsay rushes in as soon as she hears, Danny leaves, she asks Mac for advise and then leaves in the same direction gives me no other option than to think she went after him. I will allow that my theory on her being rejected by him is mine alone, but if he won't take consolation from Mac, who he sees as a father figure and whose approval he clearly needs and who is trying to let him off the hook, he certainly isn't going to take any help from Lindsay, someone with all kinds of emotional issues of her own. It's the only place I can go that makes sense. Lindsay has been there for him in giving him test results that implicate him and asking how he's doing when Louie was at the hospital, but this is real emotional involvement and for her to even consider going out on that limb for him and hand him the saw by acknowledging that she wasn't good at this, as Mac suggested...that was HUGE for her. I still think she did it.

She gave him a chance to talk, and only stormed off when he didn't even look up at her, telling him that she was through trying (my interpretation of her comment). If she hadn't been right next to bursting out in tears I would see her waiting for an answer of some sort but Lindsay doesn't show her pain well and I can see her wanting to get away before she fell apart completely or said something else.

I realize that and it continues to bug me that Flack offered help, went back to the lab for her to help him with a test, and then didn't tell Danny (that we are aware of anyway) that she was concerned. (I'm assuming you meant that Flack didn't tell Danny that Lindsay sent him to look for him, right? If not, you're gonna have to help me understand that one!)

No. If she wanted to make him feel like complete and utter shit she would have blamed him for making her fall in love and then cutting her off. What I heard her say was that she was not holding him responsible for her actions and decisions. The cruelty was in Lindsay, once again, taking control and taking the decision out of his hands as to what he might want to do with her love for him. She just picked up her paperdolls and went back into the castle, leaving him with the knowledge that he was loved, and left alone. That was cruel, I will give you that. But it fits so clearly in the way her character deals with emotion that I don't think we can expect anything else from her. I don't think she thought she was being cruel.

The most interesting thing was that he didn't have anything to say to her while she was ranting, but as soon as she had pulled herself together and was focusing on work again, here he comes and wants to talk. I can't say I blame her for not wanting to engage in meaningful conversation about the subject.

 

I think I could get behind this, if it was done believably. But I'm not sure if just messing up would be enough, because I think the consequences could easily shatter her. Getting into this for a second...

See, I'm not sure it's even as simple as just making that extra effort to give, so that less-damaged people give back. Lindsay's always been socially awkward, but it's always struck me how the first half of season 4 is, comparatively, the warmest and most open we've ever seen her. Just during those first few episodes of S4, she seemed so much happier,and thus warmer and more genuinely receptive to people and feelings - not just with Danny, but a lot of her interactions with Stella, Mac, even Hawkes (somewhat) were warmer and more fun, lacking the same extent of aloofness we usually see from her. She was less stiff, more willing to just let herself go and drop the walls a little. Easy to explain, right? She was feeling happier and (at least, from her perspective) cared for by Danny, and it showed. It was like knowing at least one person really cared for her made it easier to reach out to other people. Having that base of guaranteed care, just seems so important with her.


[I picked up on most of this during my re-watch of S4, but I'm also partly going on something Anna Belknap said during the S4 DVD interviews: about Lindsay at the beginning of S4 being happier because she was with Danny, and it reflecting in her behaviour.]


Of course, it then turned out that person didn't care as much as she thought he did, so everything took a sharp reverse. Clearly, Lindsay's damage is that she depends on feeling cared about before she can make that extra effort to drop her walls - and she shouldn't. In a way, she's almost as damagingly-needy as Danny is. This is probably where therapy would come in, to rid her of that dependence. Like you said, we're not likely to see this, but I really think if she ever had that base of knowing for sure someone cared again, that would help her make the extra effort - again. It's one reason I really think both Danny and Lindsay need to move on from this ugly non-relationship of theirs. I think it'd be equally important for both of them.

I agree, I don't think an external source will fix anything, and I think skhe has to want to change. But I think it's the other way around, especially with the way she is now - I think it's only going start with someone truly caring about her, rather than her truly caring about someone else. I mean, she truly cares about Danny now and it partly shows, but her walls are still up, mostly because I think on some level she knows perfectly well he doesn't care about her (at least, not the way he seemed to in S3).

I guess what really struck me about the trial (and everything leading up to it in S3) is how fragile those reserves of strength are, even as she's desperate to draw on them. I agree to an extent that she's a survivor, or at least that she's determined to be one. I think she had every intention of getting through that trial if it killed her. Problem is, I think it very easily could have - or at least shattered her. She went back for the second half of the trial, but I'm so unsure on whether she actually would've gotten through it if Danny hadn't walked in literally as she started testifying again.

And that was just the trial. I know it brought back bad memories for her, but the worst of everything happened at least a decade and a half ago, yet her defences were still failing her (or at least, failing to protect her from harming herself). I saw a similar thing at the end of S4, though I agree it does take strength to walk away from someone she loves. Her method of dealing (avoiding him) was interfering with her life in a destructive way. Again, if she'd had a boss less sympathetic than Mac, she probably would've been fired for leaving evidence out.

I guess I can see how Danny would be more likely to self-destruct, if only because he seems (when in pain) to rush headlong into self-destructive things whereas Lindsay tries to run from those self-destructive things. I just think I could easily see Lindsay breaking, too. Her coping mechanisms aren't the strongest even with the comparatively-minor crises we've seen them tested against. One good crisis - like something happening to/with Lucy or Danny - I think could shatter her. She may be stronger in that she's more determined to survive, but I guess I just see Danny as being in a healthier place strictly in terms of interpersonal relationships. Because when he's on the verge of shattering, he's transparent enough that people can see it, and open and magnetic enough that people actually want to help him through it. Lindsay...well, she's not transparent, and doesn't have anyone other than Danny close enough to want to help that much.

Honestly, he didn't seem that into her even at the beginning of S4 (even though she couldn't seem to see this), so I think it would've been similar to what we have now - it being all about the baby. ....wow, but I don't even want to think about what could've happened if they'd been having a baby and the Ruben thing had still happened

I dunno, I wasn't so much talking about just Run Silent, although I think we saw an important pattern in Run Silent (I mean, she was nowhere to be found when Danny was breaking down over Aiden, either). I just saw her as holding him at a distance throughout season 2, even as she was drawn to him.

LOL, I know. It just seems so sad, though, putting all this effort into someone who probably isn't ever going to feel the same way about her.

Lol, no kidding :lol:

I agree about Flack loving good humour, but I don't know - it was a funny enough joke, but not exactly hilarious you know? (Danny didn't even seem to register it, and he likes good humour at least as much as Flack.) So it seemed just out of place, oddly friendly.

 

I think Lindsay needs a good strong friend who is not rattled by her outbursts or judgemental of her one-sided view of things and is willing to let her unload in a safe place in order to get the emotion out of her system. Someone that can then guide her and help her emotions grow up. I don't know that Danny is healthy enough emotionally himself to get her there. Unfortunately, I don't think we have any better chance of seeing this on the show than we do of her getting professional therapy. I am hoping that being a mom will help her see that she is going to have come out of herself and focus on someone else's happiness and fears and stop focusing on hers so much. If that could happen, her emotions could stand a chance of maturing.

I liked what Maya316 said about the awkwardness of her conversation with Stella in the hospital. Sadly though, it all came back around to Lindsay. Her words were "I'm going to be in therapy trying to save my entire family". Not "my entire family will be in therapy trying to get healthy". She's already projecting into the future trying to control things that haven't even happened yet. I just don't know how long she will be able to handle bearing the entire burden for everything before she shatters. That shattering may be what makes her want to change if she doesn't let someone help her get there.

I don't think making a a work-related mistake and getting in trouble will do anything more than make her tighten her control so as not to make that same mistake again. Look what happened when Mac scolded her for leaving evidence out. He said that anything to do with Danny, good or bad can't affect what she does at the lab and at that point, she shut that door and locked it. I know she was hurt, and angry, but I really think what Mac said had an impact on her not wanting to deal with anything personal with Danny. At least at work, which is where he wanted to talk and which is all we ever see.

Lindsay in Run Silent Run Deep stepped out of line by taking that test result to Danny first, but she also went to the hospital with Mac and asked Danny how he was doing. Mac also mentioned to Danny that Lindsay told him Danny listened to the tape. I don't know who went to who but I did feel like she was there for him as much as she could be. That was a very Danny-Mac-centric episode and everyone else sort of existed in the background. In Heroes, Danny did much the same thing as he did in Child's Play (didn't realize it until just now) when he realized the vic was Aiden he threw out his hands and left the room. I don't think Lindsay had much opportunity to do much talking with him. I did find it interesting that she asked Hawkes and Stella about Aiden. I seem to remember Top thinking that she was poking around for information about Danny by asking about Aiden, but I got more of an impression that she was fascinated by the team's passionate response to her death and wanted to know who this girl was that evoked that response. Seeing as how she was Danny's new partner it would be normal to wonder about the person whose place you had taken.

I really need to bite the bullet and buy S3 and S4 DVD's. It's gonna be a while before S6 starts and Spike TV has replaced NY with LV so I'm stuck.

Danny won't leave me alone today so I'm back writing a few lines about him. I hope it doesn't get ridiculously long but I'm not promising anything.

Danny is complicated. He is an emotional being, passionate, and loyal to the death of people he is invested in. He's also incredibely juvenile at times, needy and hotheaded, always ready to go toe-to-toe with authority and he's his own worst enemy when it comes to staying out of trouble.

As an asie, I love how he interacts with Stella. He is protective at times, brotherly at others, and very respectful of her as a woman all the time. He doesn't flirt with her or play the wiseass, even when her necklines are plunging beyond belief! He listens to her and takes advise and instruction without any backtalk. He's different with her and it fascinates me because he seems most normal and relaxed with her, not trying to prove anything. He doesn't seem desperate for her approval as he is with Mac. It's an interesting dynamic.

I think his damage comes from an entirely different place than Lindsay's and it's harder to figure out because I don't have a major event to use as a starting point. So a lot of this is perhaps and maybe and could be.

Mac is his chosen father figure, which is interesting seeing as how he has a father of his own. This makes me think that his father and his brother are both in gang/mob related activities and Danny has perhaps disappointed his father by not following in family tradition. I think Louie may have protected Danny from a lot, maybe to give him a chance to live a different kind of life than the gang relationship he had himself. I have the feeling that even though Louie was the "badboy in the gang" that Danny's family spent a fair amount of time getting Danny out of scrapes due to his hotheaded nature. Why were he and his dad in a gypsy cab? Perhaps because his dad had to get him out of a jam in a hurry? Maybe. I don't remember how old Danny was at the time. If Danny is a screw-up now, we can only imagine that he started early and his family had to deal with it too. But then again, Danny probably inherited a reputation that he didn't create just because he was Louie Messer's little brother, which was probably hard on him so he may have reaped a bit more trouble than he sowed. But in protecting him, I think Louie did push him away, which Danny didn't understand the significance of until Louie got beat up trying to help him as an adult. Until that moment, all Danny knew was his brother rejected him and that hurt.

I wonder how many parents didn't want Danny around their kids just because of his family. He is very sensitive to people's opinion of him, which speaks to his possibly being misjudged as a youth. He can't stand to be badmouthed, and feels extremely vulnerable unless he knows without a doubt that he has the support of his peers, all of which makes me think his family sort of deserted him when he chose to go down a different path. Even with Lindsay he is unsure of her belief in him as the right guy to be husband and father to their child just because she didn't jump at the chance to marry him. What she meant as caution he saw as rejection.

He has great sympathy for families that he deals with when things go wrong and family members die. I love how he went back to the kid whose father was a gypsy cabbie and makes a point to apologize for casting the father in a bad light. He wanted the kid to know that his father was someone he could be proud of. The fact that it was that important to Danny makes me think that it took him back to his own childhood and by apologizing he may be giving us a glimpse of what others thought of his family and how it affected him.

I hope that marriage and fatherhood will calm him down and give him the affirmation that he seems to need in order to leave his past and move forward. He's really a great guy with a lot of potential and in spite of his lack of confidence he's a warm and caring man. Like Rikki said, he's a sweet man. Lindsay is more than lucky to have him in her life.

 

Yes! I think, ideally, she'd get this good strong friend who'd help her emotions mature and grow up...which, yeah, I don't know how likely we are to see that on the show. I do think that just starting with a good, strong friend who's not rattled by her, though, would be cool enough. Back when I wasn't watching NY as a series, just watching it in random, out-of-order episodes, I actually sort of liked the D/L friendship because I thought Danny was this good strong friend (as in, a friend not in a relationshippy capacity).

I know the case in Heroes would've been the same as in Run Silent - Flack and Mac having more of a claim to provide emotional support than Lindsay, therefore it's not surprising that we didn't see Lindsay offer this support. But Lindsay's entire response to Danny in all those episodes seemed really significant, so I can't think it's just a coincidence that she didn't offer much support. I mean, Stella didn't have a great claim on Danny either, but she still asked Flack how he was holding up when his badge was taken away, even though she didn't even see Danny for the rest of the episode. She went out of her way to check on Danny. Lindsay asked Danny if he was okay - because he was literally right in front of her, and she'd been brought to the hospital by Mac to process Louie's clothes. I know she cared about him, but I honestly can't say she would've otherwise gone out of her way to check on him.

I do think she already found herself caring deeply about Danny, and feeling kind of protective of his vulnerability. That Aiden-line to Stella may have just been her fishing for dirt on Aiden/Danny, but I always thought that it came from the same place of protectiveness that led her to give Danny the DNA results in Run Silent. She seemed genuinely sad when she was talking about how Danny talked about Aiden, like she was sad for him. But I don't think it stopped her from holding him at a distance.

Yes! There is so much good stuff in the S4 DVD interviews, they're at least as good as the episodes. Has Spike TV replaced NY with LV? I thought they were sharing airtime (on weekdays, usually three episodes of NY, then of LV?)

I actually don't want Danny to calm down, at least not completely. I think it would be good for him if he did, but at the same time I don't think he'd be Danny if he wasn't rash. And for the most part, I agree that Lindsay's lucky to have him in her life (and I think she more than thinks so, too). I just wish she could have him in her life in a less emotionally-damaging capacity. They would work so well as just friends - at least, so much better than they work now.

 

But clearly one of the great Danny scenes we got. His face was absolutely childlike when he finally got around to asking her to marry him. I remember Anna mentioning in an article that she was thinking Lindsay should just say yes because he was being so adorable.

I know we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one eventually:lol:. But...if that was her mentality, then why have her in that scene in the first place? Lindsay has always asked about someone's well-being from a distance and depended on others to make the personal contact. Her finding out in the lab and deciding to check on him later or deal with the situation later would have been more in character with what we have seen of her ability to reach out to others than her coming to the morgue as soon as she heard.

Wow. And I thought Flack was a good guy. Now he just looks jealous and petty. I can see where he may not have thought that Danny and Lindsay made the best couple, but him not letting Danny know that Lindsay was concerned just seems cold and cruel to me.

Glad you said this because the way he answered the phone when Lindsay called has bugged me forever. It was as if he knew it was her. His tone was personal and intimate, not at all "oh shit I'm caught" or anything remotely like it. Maybe it was leftover from his night with Rikki. I don't know. But while talking to Lindsay you wouldn't even think that Rikki was in the apartment, let alone in his bed all night. It's as if the two situations existed in parallel universes and had no connection.

Totally agree. More of his giving away a piece of himself as a solution to someone else's pain.

Needy, needy needy! But yeah, no commitment, no admission, just please be there for me again like we're gonna just ignore the past however many weeks. I can see that.

Good point. I always saw her as determined to get through it on her own, perhaps as a way to put it all behind her once and for all and that would have been such a bonus for the character to do that. What a sense of accomplishment and self empowerment. However, I think his heart was in the right place by wanting to support her.

This is an interesting point. In re-watching NWILL the other day I realized that his fear for her taking Beth's place to make the jewerly drop had as much to do with him possibly losing another partner as it may have had to do with his romantic feelings for Lindsay.

I do too.

Or neglect or just being invisible. The screw up thing was not meant as him intentionally doing bad things. Just being who he is, like he is now. I don't see his behavior and way of coping with things now as being a new thing. It's something that would have started many years ago. As much trouble as he has gotten himelf into now as an adult can you imagine how it must have been for him as a teenager. He didn't think twice about getting in Sonny's face when seeing the kid being beaten. He just waded right in trying to defend the kid. That's the kind of messes I am talking about.

 

Sorry, lol, I know I'm taking this outside the D/L argument, but I'm a little iffy on the Flack thing...I've always kind of taken it as a given that Flack would've told Danny that Lindsay was the one who sent him, or at least told him that she was worried, even though we didn't see it onscreen. Just because, well, rivalry or not, not telling Danny is shoddy behaviour (to both Danny and Lindsay) in a way I can't really see matching with Flack aka Integrity Man's character. At the very least, he's always seemed to respect the fact that they were together/that she cares about Danny. I don't know how discomforted their collaboration was - I don't remember the non-looks, but I do remember that Lindsay called him "Don" when she first tracked him down, and that he seemed to know her phone number off by heart (when he dialled it after finding the bail- phone number).

I'm still not convinced the relationship falling apart wasn't at least partly because Danny wouldn't go to her, or even run with the little-bit that she did give him. [I mean, behind-the-scenes support aside, the two minor times we saw her reach out to him directly - going to him in the morgue (he was fine talking to Mac, but ran the moment Lindsay entered) and the offer to buy lunch in Right Next Door - he blew her off.] But yeah, I definitely agree that Lindsay had no idea how to do what Danny did in season 3. For her, the taking seems to be much more important than the giving, not good for an adult relationship, although it does at the same time look as though she at least tries giving. Even if she doesn't have the first clue how to do it successfully.

I don't know, I think I'd call Season2!Lindsay "perky" rather than "happy" - there was kind of a hardness to her happiness in that season. I could totally see how Danny would've found her stand-offish, uptight, and competitive (though being fair, he wasn't much better to her). Whereas in S4 she just seemed much looser. I always found it significant how utterly entertained Stella and Hawkes seemed by her in those episodes, and how it was the only time we ever saw Stella spill personal info to her (about Drew) before she spilled it to even Mac. I understand what you mean about the happiness of being in a relationship with a long-time crush, but we rarely see Lindsay truly "happy" to begin with, so it's weird that the crush-thing would be what does it for her.

Definitely. Yeah, the relationship-thing is kind of external, but I'm otherwise at a loss to see how she'll get to that "happy-with-herself" point in TVland (as opposed to real life, where she would be in therapy).

I don't know if it was strength that made her get back on the stand so much as it was determination. Maybe a combination of both. I definitely think it was her own resolve to face the trial that made her get back on the stand. But I also think she just didn't let herself believe for a moment that she wouldn't be able to handle it - even if it later turned out that she couldn't. It seems to fit with what we've seen of her: her peevishness in Manhattan Manhunt read a lot to me like she was determined to be able to handle the scene, and was angry that Mac wouldn't give her the chance to handle it; even though later, more minor scenes were enough to make her run. And in LWFM, where she was the one who started a friendly-ish conversation with Danny (he actually seemed surprised for a moment that she was talking to him), like she was determined to be able to handle it. And then she ran when it suddenly turned out that she couldn't handle it.

Oh, I do agree that the team would rally around her; I just think it would be easier for them to rally around Danny, whereas with Lindsay they might not perceive the problem as easily, and so wouldn't be able to tell if she broke. Danny may be more likely to break. But his endearing-ness is exactly why, interpersonally, right now, he's in a better place than Lindsay. Because I agree with what you said about Danny being the heart of the team. And people can always tell with Danny when he's in pain, and are always aware of the cause (Aiden, Ruben, Louie, the On the Job shooting etc.). It's always right there on the page with him, it's what makes him so loveable, and in general easier to deal with. It's what makes people seem willing to drop everything and sacrifice all kinds of things for him (Lindsay and Flack their jobs and integrity, to some extent; Mac seems to work overtime every time Danny's involved in a crisis, and even Aiden in S1 was willing to go to extra lengths to help him). No one even knew what Lindsay's damage was in S3 until she outright told them; they were worried, yeah, but because they didn't know where the behaviour was coming from they didn't seem as concerned.

I'm iffy on this - partly because I'm trying to imagine a Danny with his issues sorted out, and I really can't. :lol: I agree he cares about her, as a friend at the very least - I just think that effort to care as a friend would show better without his creating the whole illusion of love and marriage. No matter how badly Lindsay wants to buy into it, I think it's at least partly the reason she doesn't seem to trust him as much.

Oh, I don't know if I agree with this at all :lol: - Danny is the one character on the show who never fails to make me laugh, although I'll admit his funnier moments probably aren't the ones where he's trying to be funny. His jokes usually seem to make the other characters laugh. I'll agree his lamer ones seem to come out around Lindsay (probably what she was picking up on in Stuck on You), but even she laughs at those. And then he and Flack usually seem to laugh at the same kind of jokes (at least, when they're interrogating suspects together).

That's an interesting point, one I definitely hadn't considered before. But wow, talk about picking the wrong person to cling to (especially given that Danny's sudden clinginess seems to be at least part of the reason Lindsay pushed him away that hard). It makes a lot of sense...though I'm unsure about the season-four withdrawal explanation. I can see how a more secure guy would come to the conclusion that Lindsay didn't really care, but I think said more-secure-guy would've therefore stopped things long before they hit the pool table. And even given Danny's insecurities, it just seemed weird that if he already wondered about Lindsay's motives, he'd not only go through the night-before-Snow Day with her, but also take her shift, make her breakfast, call out to her when she was running to him in the truck (which seemed a fair indication that she cared, and that he at least suspected it) -- and then withdraw. The flirting leading up to Snow Day may well have been the norm for them, but the things he did in Snow Day really made it seem like he at least wanted her to care about him.

Crossing my fingers that it's not as over-the-top as what they did with Lindsay's past, but I would really want to see this. Especially in light of the fact that Danny now has Lucy, and that might factor into how he'd respond if something big about his past does come to light. But actually, on this topic...

I'm trying to remember the main times Danny has taken cases personally and emotionally (when they don't involve someone he knows); and I definitely agree about the family thing, but I think it might go deeper. In some ways, he reminds me a little of Nick from CSI because he tends to freak out a little on cases where someone is hurt by another someone they should've been able to trust (I'm remembering the Buzzkill episode, how upset he was when he found out the boyfriend was part of the crime, and that S1 episode where he and Stella were interviewing that male pedophile - Stella seemed disgusted to, but Danny actively seemed to goad and hate the guy, so I'm wondering how that plays into things).

See, Flack is a good guy, and this is why I can't see him not having told Danny. He's like the moral compass of the team. That's why it was so significant to see him shoot that guy at the end of Pay Up. Hiding the fact that Lindsay was worried goes beyond the pettiness required for a rivalry, if they are rivals (especially since, if the knowledge would've helped Danny, I really can't see Flack hiding it - if nothing else, he always seems to have Danny's best interests at heart), and I think we have to make some concessions regarding what happens offscreen. Usually it's hard to make the argument (for books/movies/TV shows/whatever) that something happened if the viewers/readers didn't see it happen, but for the most part, these CSI shows are about their jobs. Personal life doesn't usually intermingle with job-life, so if we miss a few important things, it can't be that surprising.