The Nick Stokes Timeline: Part 2
- Thread starter Destiny
- Start date
- Status
I agree with most of the comments made about this episode.
I particularly enjoyed the conflict between Nick and Cavalier. I think that part of was that Nick was put off by the detective’s rush to judgement. He was disturbed by the way Cavalier decided just by looking at the brother that he was the killer. He never dismissed out of hand that the brother could have done it… He wanted more evidence then a cop’s gut instinct before he was going do something that would rip a family apart.
I do wonder if the fact it was brothers –and young ones at that that made it difficult for Nick to accept the idea that the Matt may have killed the his younger brother. All indications are that Nick grew up is a happy home. Canon (what as actually been said on the show) tells us that Nick does have a brother and given what he told Catherine in Revenge is Best Served Cold, they were close enough in age that Nick was aware of the car his brother had and the effort he put into it. It could be that Nick knows of the stuff that goes on in families- the fights, the bickering and the like that happen in all families that don’t lead to one kid killing the other. Once they realized that Matt was the killer – what was the one that thing that Nick wanted to know? He wanted to why? Why would a fourteen year old, kill his younger brother. The usual motives – money or some long standing feud didn’t apply – they wouldn’t have been going after the same woman or have a business together. I think it was the lack of a motive that he could wrap his head around that Nick was having the biggest problem with.
I also liked the parts with Nick and Warrick and how Warrick stepped up and helped Nick with some of the case. It was a nice hint at the friendship the two have. I think that Nick is more comfortable around Warrick then he Catherine at that point. I don’t think it is he has problem with Catherine, I think he is more he is trying to figure out what their relationship is now that she is the boss. I also wonder if he does miss working with Grissom and Sara (Greg was too new to the job for Nick to be use to working with him in the field) Catherine may see this that and given touchy she is takes it mean that Nick does not like working for her… I don’t think it was an easy time for any of those three.
But I think my favorite part of the episode and that part that still hits home for me is the end. Matt is being lead away in handcuff that are almost to big for him…his mother is crying over what she has just learned, that one of the children killed the other. Nick is watching this family tragedy and Cavalier walks up behind. He too sees Matt and his parents – sees what is happening and all he can say is “I told you so.” I loved Nick’s response to Cavalier’s demand for an apology… “I’m sorry…that you feel that way.” It was a great reply, and shows us how far Nick as come in some ways and that he hasn’t changed a bit in others. He no longer really cares what at least some of his co-workers think, but he is still empathizing with the victims and sometimes even the criminals. You really couldn’t ask for a more striking contrast there…Cavalier who was only worried about who was right and who was wrong…and Nick who was looking at the impact the crime had – and will continue to have on the family.
As much as I like it, I am not sure how healthy it is for Nick to do that. During the second half of the season we saw Nick deal with a number of darker cases, and I think by the end of the season, it was beginning to weigh on him. Even without what happened in GD I think Nick was heading towards some sort of crisis. He was just having to many bad days and rough cases. If they continue going down that road, and Nick does not get some sort of help to deal with all the stuff in his life then I worry what is going to happen to him … I don’t think the writers are going to anything until the show is over or almost over…but then…watch out.
I particularly enjoyed the conflict between Nick and Cavalier. I think that part of was that Nick was put off by the detective’s rush to judgement. He was disturbed by the way Cavalier decided just by looking at the brother that he was the killer. He never dismissed out of hand that the brother could have done it… He wanted more evidence then a cop’s gut instinct before he was going do something that would rip a family apart.
I do wonder if the fact it was brothers –and young ones at that that made it difficult for Nick to accept the idea that the Matt may have killed the his younger brother. All indications are that Nick grew up is a happy home. Canon (what as actually been said on the show) tells us that Nick does have a brother and given what he told Catherine in Revenge is Best Served Cold, they were close enough in age that Nick was aware of the car his brother had and the effort he put into it. It could be that Nick knows of the stuff that goes on in families- the fights, the bickering and the like that happen in all families that don’t lead to one kid killing the other. Once they realized that Matt was the killer – what was the one that thing that Nick wanted to know? He wanted to why? Why would a fourteen year old, kill his younger brother. The usual motives – money or some long standing feud didn’t apply – they wouldn’t have been going after the same woman or have a business together. I think it was the lack of a motive that he could wrap his head around that Nick was having the biggest problem with.
I also liked the parts with Nick and Warrick and how Warrick stepped up and helped Nick with some of the case. It was a nice hint at the friendship the two have. I think that Nick is more comfortable around Warrick then he Catherine at that point. I don’t think it is he has problem with Catherine, I think he is more he is trying to figure out what their relationship is now that she is the boss. I also wonder if he does miss working with Grissom and Sara (Greg was too new to the job for Nick to be use to working with him in the field) Catherine may see this that and given touchy she is takes it mean that Nick does not like working for her… I don’t think it was an easy time for any of those three.
But I think my favorite part of the episode and that part that still hits home for me is the end. Matt is being lead away in handcuff that are almost to big for him…his mother is crying over what she has just learned, that one of the children killed the other. Nick is watching this family tragedy and Cavalier walks up behind. He too sees Matt and his parents – sees what is happening and all he can say is “I told you so.” I loved Nick’s response to Cavalier’s demand for an apology… “I’m sorry…that you feel that way.” It was a great reply, and shows us how far Nick as come in some ways and that he hasn’t changed a bit in others. He no longer really cares what at least some of his co-workers think, but he is still empathizing with the victims and sometimes even the criminals. You really couldn’t ask for a more striking contrast there…Cavalier who was only worried about who was right and who was wrong…and Nick who was looking at the impact the crime had – and will continue to have on the family.
As much as I like it, I am not sure how healthy it is for Nick to do that. During the second half of the season we saw Nick deal with a number of darker cases, and I think by the end of the season, it was beginning to weigh on him. Even without what happened in GD I think Nick was heading towards some sort of crisis. He was just having to many bad days and rough cases. If they continue going down that road, and Nick does not get some sort of help to deal with all the stuff in his life then I worry what is going to happen to him … I don’t think the writers are going to anything until the show is over or almost over…but then…watch out.
G
Guest
Guest
God, working retail hours during Christmas is seriously cutting into my Nicky discussion time!
I actually felt that Nick *did* owe Cavalier an apology by the end of the episode. At first, I thoroughly agree with everyone's observations that Nicky was looking for the truth beyond Cavalier's "instincts". But his unwillingness to accept the plausibility that Cavalier may be right was very unfair. It smacked of the whole Cops vs CSI tension that often happens on this show.
This was especially true in the scene when Cavalier informs Nick of his lie detector test and Nick got juvenile on him. By the middle of the eppy, it looked more to me that Nicky was out to prove Cavalier wrong vs getting to the truth of the matter. It was Nick's competitive edge rearing it's ugly head.
Though he gets bonus points for his communication skills earlier on. When he calls Cavalier out to the hall during the initial interview with the brother, Nick's tone is very calming, measured and logical. Cavalier was very up-in-arms about having his judgement and interrogation style be under question, and Nicky knows this so speaks very calmly. It was like watching a lion trainer approaching a tempermental pitbull. I really enjoy that about Nicky -- his ability to smooth ruffled feathers and win people to his side with his soft spoken manner. It was in stark contrast to the combustible personalities and lack of communication skills displayed by Sara and Catherine only episodes earlier in Nesting Dolls in their hallway scene.
That said, it was very childish of Nick to end with "I'm sorry you feel that way" and turning his back on Cavalier -- even though I laughed my a** off at that line. :lol:
ETA: I'm thoroughly enjoying everyone's truly insightful discussion eppie per eppie. How many English majors are on here? Because y'all are working up quite a nice thesis!
ETAA: Completely shallow point but I felt a burning desire to mention just how HOT Nicky looks with his cap on backwards. (heart skips beat).
Carry on...
I actually felt that Nick *did* owe Cavalier an apology by the end of the episode. At first, I thoroughly agree with everyone's observations that Nicky was looking for the truth beyond Cavalier's "instincts". But his unwillingness to accept the plausibility that Cavalier may be right was very unfair. It smacked of the whole Cops vs CSI tension that often happens on this show.
This was especially true in the scene when Cavalier informs Nick of his lie detector test and Nick got juvenile on him. By the middle of the eppy, it looked more to me that Nicky was out to prove Cavalier wrong vs getting to the truth of the matter. It was Nick's competitive edge rearing it's ugly head.
Though he gets bonus points for his communication skills earlier on. When he calls Cavalier out to the hall during the initial interview with the brother, Nick's tone is very calming, measured and logical. Cavalier was very up-in-arms about having his judgement and interrogation style be under question, and Nicky knows this so speaks very calmly. It was like watching a lion trainer approaching a tempermental pitbull. I really enjoy that about Nicky -- his ability to smooth ruffled feathers and win people to his side with his soft spoken manner. It was in stark contrast to the combustible personalities and lack of communication skills displayed by Sara and Catherine only episodes earlier in Nesting Dolls in their hallway scene.
That said, it was very childish of Nick to end with "I'm sorry you feel that way" and turning his back on Cavalier -- even though I laughed my a** off at that line. :lol:
ETA: I'm thoroughly enjoying everyone's truly insightful discussion eppie per eppie. How many English majors are on here? Because y'all are working up quite a nice thesis!
ETAA: Completely shallow point but I felt a burning desire to mention just how HOT Nicky looks with his cap on backwards. (heart skips beat).
Carry on...
ford_prefect
CSI Level Two
I didn't see him as being unwilling to accept that the brother may have done it, just that he wasn't willing to jump to the conclusion that the brother did it, as Cavaliere did right from the beginning. He just wanted to wait until all of the evidence was in, which is what the CSIs always do, follow the evidence, even if they don't like where it takes them. Without the evidence, even if the kid did do it, they couldn't have proven it, so there was no point in traumatizing him, when he may have been innocent.
Again, I didn't see him as being juvenile or competitive. If he did come across that way, it was only because of the tone that Cavaliere was setting, because in my opinion, if anyone got juvenile in this episode it was Cavaliere. Frankly, I thought he acted like a real ass. Nearly every remark he made to Nick was snide, he was completely dismissive of everything that Nick said, and he wasn't willing to work with Nick at all. He didn't even want to interrogate the homeless man who was a possible suspect. As Grissom said in "Mea Culpa" about Ecklie, he started with the answers he wanted and then devised the questions to get them. Nick merely looked at the evidence with no predetermined conclusion. Sure he may have been hoping that it wasn't the brother who did it, I don't think he could help having that feeling, but once it was proven by the evidence, he was obviously was willing to accept it.
wlk68
Pathologist
I agree that Nick went about this in the correct manner.
Sure they had a confession from the kid but that's not enough. People have been known to confess to all kinds of things under the pressure of interogation. Things that they didn't actually do. And let's not forget that there was no advocate present. Not sure what the legal age is in Nevada but this seemed a little young to me. What was he? 13? 14?
In addition, there are other rather deranged people out there who walk into police stations and blithely confess to things they didn't do in a misguided attempt to get themselves some attention.
The police don't usually take these people at their word without fully investigating the case and making sure that the evidence corroborates their statements.
Cavaliere was willing to overlook that step in the process and just take a kid, a mere child, at his word. A child, who even though he said he understood his rights, couldn't possibly grasp the impact of what he had done.
Nick may have not wanted the kid to be guilty but at least he investigated all possible avenues and made 100% sure they had the right person.
Sure they had a confession from the kid but that's not enough. People have been known to confess to all kinds of things under the pressure of interogation. Things that they didn't actually do. And let's not forget that there was no advocate present. Not sure what the legal age is in Nevada but this seemed a little young to me. What was he? 13? 14?
In addition, there are other rather deranged people out there who walk into police stations and blithely confess to things they didn't do in a misguided attempt to get themselves some attention.
The police don't usually take these people at their word without fully investigating the case and making sure that the evidence corroborates their statements.
Cavaliere was willing to overlook that step in the process and just take a kid, a mere child, at his word. A child, who even though he said he understood his rights, couldn't possibly grasp the impact of what he had done.
Nick may have not wanted the kid to be guilty but at least he investigated all possible avenues and made 100% sure they had the right person.
You see, I can't disagree more. I did not see that moment as childish, and I don't really think that Nick was turning his back on Cavalier as he was turning back toawards the family. They just happened to be the oppiste direction then Cavalier.
For me one of the things this scene did was show the importance of beats, pacing and actually watching what is happening on screen. It is not just the what is said, but how it said.
If the scene had gone something like this...
C: You owe me an apology.
N: (turns for C as he walks down the hall) I'm sorry you feel that way.
I would have agreed with you. Nick would have been in the wrong. But the scene didn't go like that. It wasn't written like that. There was a small and to me critical pause where we saw were Nick was looking that made the difference.
N: (watching as Matt is lead away in cuffs and sees Mom crying over what she has just learned.)
C: (From behind N and looking at the same scene) You owe me an apology.
N: (turns to C) I'm sorry. (long beat while N turns back to Matt and his parents and the sorry scene) that you feel that way. (then he walks away)
In that version wasn't turning his back on Cavalier, he was returning his attention to something else...something that happened to be in oppiste direction then the cop.
TV is a visual medium. While good dialouge is important, what is even more important is stage directions, and what the actors do with the dialouge. A pause, where the actor is looking and what he/she is looking at can make all the difference.
I took Nick's "I'm sorry" to be more directed towards the whole situation rather than Cavalier. He was sorry that one child was capable of commiting the ultimate evil. He was sorry that a family was completely torn apart and that their lives would never be the same again.He was sorry that his belief in the innocence and goodness of kids was shattered right there and then. And above all he was sorry that all Cavalier cared about was being right-- and about the apology that he was supposedly owed-- during a time like that rather than the heartbreaking situation right in front of him. That is what Nick was focused on and not the childish spat with Cavalier. And, like ABharding mentioned, that (the family) was what Nick was turning towards and looking at and that is where his attention was directed. Definitely not towards Cavalier and his silly ego games.
I'm ITA with ford on this one. I think Nick was concerned that Cavaliere was jumping to conclusions, and he wanted to make sure the brother wasn't railroaded into confessing. There was actually a case a few years back (and I wonder if the writers used it as inspiration) where a girl was killed in her home, and the brother ended up confessing to it. Well, it turns out the brother was scared to death by the interrogation and really hadn't killed her. A homeless man ended up being charged with the girl's murder.
I think Nick is very respectful of police officers, but at the same time he's a realist and he knows that just as it is with every profession, there can be some bad seeds and corners can be cut. He wanted to make sure this kid really did it before the family went through even more hell.
I think Nick is very respectful of police officers, but at the same time he's a realist and he knows that just as it is with every profession, there can be some bad seeds and corners can be cut. He wanted to make sure this kid really did it before the family went through even more hell.
I really don't think Nick was acting wrong or was disrespectful against Det. Cavaliere
I think he want the case to be properly solved... maybe he was hoping that the brother was not the killer.. but he was really not acting like a judge..
This case was really hard and sad
The "I'm sorry... that you feel that way" was because Det. Cavaliere still feels like Nick consider that he (Cavaliere) was not able to resolve a case... that the csi are better.. blabla.. what is really not Nick's kind of behaviour!
I think he want the case to be properly solved... maybe he was hoping that the brother was not the killer.. but he was really not acting like a judge..
This case was really hard and sad
The "I'm sorry... that you feel that way" was because Det. Cavaliere still feels like Nick consider that he (Cavaliere) was not able to resolve a case... that the csi are better.. blabla.. what is really not Nick's kind of behaviour!
Poor samismiles! Boy, did you come to the wrong thread if you wanted to criticize Nick! :lol: Well, if nothing else, you got our posters out in record numbers!
That's OK- don't be daunted. We've had disagreements over interpretations in the past, and I'm sure we'll continue to have them in the future. Stick by your guns, I say. If you weigh all the evidence and still feel the same way, then more power to you.
Now, having said that... I too agree that Nick was just trying to do his job, and Cavaliere obviously didn't like having his longheld police instincts called into question. His snideness basically came into play when he said something like, "You solve the case yet, Stokes?" and just kept going from there throughout the rest of the episode. To which, I might add, Nick just sort of laughed. I figure he's probably used to being thought of as a science geek by cops by now.
Everything Cavaliere said to Nick after that had a snide "Oh yeah, well I found this out and you didn't" sound to it, and frankly, I think Nick managed to maintain his professionalism while he defended himself from Cavaliere's criticisms, and also when he backed up all his arguments with sound, logical reasoning. Everything he said made sense, particularly from a legal standpoint (although, I may not be the best person to advise in those matters- all my legal info comes from Law and Order! ) Still, he brought Walter the homeless guy in to prove due process, and negate the idea that they rushed to judgement on the kid. I mean, seems to me that would only strengthen their case, no matter who the guilty party ended up being.
That's OK- don't be daunted. We've had disagreements over interpretations in the past, and I'm sure we'll continue to have them in the future. Stick by your guns, I say. If you weigh all the evidence and still feel the same way, then more power to you.
Now, having said that... I too agree that Nick was just trying to do his job, and Cavaliere obviously didn't like having his longheld police instincts called into question. His snideness basically came into play when he said something like, "You solve the case yet, Stokes?" and just kept going from there throughout the rest of the episode. To which, I might add, Nick just sort of laughed. I figure he's probably used to being thought of as a science geek by cops by now.
Everything Cavaliere said to Nick after that had a snide "Oh yeah, well I found this out and you didn't" sound to it, and frankly, I think Nick managed to maintain his professionalism while he defended himself from Cavaliere's criticisms, and also when he backed up all his arguments with sound, logical reasoning. Everything he said made sense, particularly from a legal standpoint (although, I may not be the best person to advise in those matters- all my legal info comes from Law and Order!
) Still, he brought Walter the homeless guy in to prove due process, and negate the idea that they rushed to judgement on the kid. I mean, seems to me that would only strengthen their case, no matter who the guilty party ended up being.Poor samismiles! Boy, did you come to the wrong thread if you wanted to criticize Nick! :lol: Well, if nothing else, you got our posters out in record numbers!
That's OK- don't be daunted. We've had disagreements over interpretations in the past, and I'm sure we'll continue to have them in the future. Stick by your guns, I say. If you weigh all the evidence and still feel the same way, then more power to you.
Hey, there is nothing wrong with people disagreeing. I love a good debate where people have a wide veriaty of opinions. I am a firm beleiver in the old quote "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
And I didn't mean to jump on you sarasmiles. You just happen to hit on what for me is a somewhat touchy subject. For me good writing is not just about was is said - but what is not said (on TV what is shown) On not just what the characters say, but how they say it... for me good writing, be it prose or script is not just about the text, but the subtext.
- Status