The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

^ Yes lol. And I'm still waiting for that scene where she confronts Grissom, calls him on being a hypocrite and really slaps him. I'm sure a lot of people would cheer for that. :lol: Probably not going to get it on the show, but that's why fan fiction is awesome. <3

 

even though i'm a GSR shipper i agree with you. there are certain people who are quite rude to others, but it regards all ships. the fact that the rude GSR's are more visible is b/c this ship is probably the most popular in the CSI fandom. the higher the number of fans, the bigger the chance someone is going to behave like an idiot. simple as that.

i'm totally against making an opinion over certain ships/shows/bands b/c some of their supporters are retarded. i remember old days on Talk in 2005/2006 where there were some absolutely Retarded (with capital R) Snickers shippers. dear lord, some of those people were just ... no comments. it put me off but i decided i'm not going to have a negative opinion on Nick's and Sara's relationship b/c some fans have only half a brain.

i definitely see your point in here. but i think the fact that Greg and Brass knew about it and didn't seem to have a problem with it, and that the rest of a team didn't catch up makes me think that Grissom didn't favoritize her. he never was the one to patronize anybody and he always liked to give the team their own space, so there wasn't really much he could 'favoritize' her in. Sara also understood she could not take advantage of him at work, and that's one of the reasons they both knew it would be ok.

in practice he probably wouldn't do anything different at work had they not been together, but, i agree, there always was a chance he could and that's the ethical dilemma right there.

we also have to remember that he didn't ask her to come to Vegas and slept with her the same night. there was even a whole episode about his indecision in her regard. he thought about it for 5 years after all.

what i don't like is when people have a problem with one ship saying that it's unethical and full of hypocricy, but they ship other pairings and therefore are hypocrites themselves. would you be saying the same thing if Grillows was canon (also supervisor/subordinate relationship) or Nick and Greg (fraternizing of coworkers which is probably against the rules as well)? i mean every major CSI ship is unethical if we look at it this way.

and if you are here, in Shipper Central on TalkCSI and post in other ships' threads supporting them, getting excited about possible moments to come, posting fanfiction, you have no reason saying that the ship you don't like is unethical b/c if yours was canon i could use the same argument against it.

now if you don't ship anything (or ship Ellie with Warrick lol), then your opinion is unbiased and absolutely fine with me.

 

^ IMO liking a pairing and wanting it canon on the show are different things. Speaking as a C/G shipper here. I like the pairing and enjoy reading fanfics involving the ship; I don't think I'd complain if it ever became canon on the show, but I certainly prefer that it doesn't. The very first thing that drew me to this ship was their easy friendship, and I'd be very pleased to just have it that way (which, unfortunately, doesn't seem exist at all now), and yes, I do think that it would be wrong if they hook up while both of them are CSIs. If TPTB want to pair any of the main characters with someone, they need to hook them up with people outside of their work. Say, like Grissom/Heather. Because pairing up any two CSIs contradicts the show itself. We already saw that on Grissom. And I guess once a ship gets to be canon, it's then inevitable that people will see it through a magnifier. When you get the canon, you get that, too. There's no way you can rid it.

 

^ oh that's a very interesting POV, i totaly get what you're saying. i have to admit that i really wanted them to get together and i still don't think much of the ethical repercussions of their affair. but since this is only a TV show, and it's purpose is to entertain, i don't think it's bad to be the way i am.

we need to remember that lives of many people go in different directions, and here CSI showed one of the routes. they had two characters who, since episode 2, were to get together at some point, and it played out as we've seen. it's impossible to have a ship that would be loved by everybody. show me ONE show except Forensic Files on Discovery and procedurals like L&O where two main characters, usually coworkers, don't get together at some point.

but if people still talk about it all year long after 8 seasons, then they must've done something right. it's extraordinary how TPTB made so many people care about it, no matter whether they love it or hate it.

it definitely is a major continuous storyline of this show, and they all decided to pull it through. you can't stay mad at them just b/c they want to end what they started, and make the show more attractive to many GSR fans.

i know how it could be frustrating for some of you who are not fond of GSR. i can't stand Wedges but i'm okay with it cuz it's not like i'll die in pain if i see them together. i watch the scenes which are sometimes funny but more often make me wince, but they last, like, 1 minute. i'm not gonna complain to TPTB b/c i know some people enjoy it, and it doesn't take that much of my time away.

 

LOL Adz, I think we're back to the point whether they had started it from the second episode again. It's obvious that you and I have totally opposite opinions regarding this one, and we have talked about it before. It's easy for GSR shippers to claim that it happened, since you have the canon now, but for those who don't get it, they just don't get it. I don't think we'll ever agree regarding this, but at least we can agree to disagree so I'll stop here.

And when I said that when a ship is canon, it gets the most criticism, I wasn't talking about just GSR but any canon ship. And it's not even my own opinion. It's a fact. Even the ultimate ship (in a lot of people's eyes anyway), Mulder and Scully, got a lot of anti comments after the canon. If my ship was canon, I'm sure it'd get bashed, too. It's sad, but that's just the way it is. *shrugs*

 

I think the main problem with a ship going canon is that the shippers probably get disappointed with the way TPTB treat their ship. I know I would be if Nick and Greg got together. I have my theories about them and see them in a certain way. So if TPTB decide to portray them differently I wouldn't be pleased.

When a ship becomes canon a lot of the tension between the two people is just lost. Mulder and Scully were so much fun to ship because there was always the question of will they be together or not and when they finally did, the fun was gone and so was the tension. I guess GSR fans feel the same about their ship and so do other shippers.

That doesn't mean my squeal of pure joy wouldn't be heard around the world if the Love became canon!!

 

oh no no, i didn't mean that it was what the show implied, and that you cannot argue and have a different opinion, b/c the beginning was indeed quite ambiguous. Sara and Nick were flirting, Grissom and Cath had lots of chemistry, Terri and Grissom dated, then there was LH, Cath had a few boyfriends, Sara's story with Hank etc etc. there were some little playful moments between G/S but if you wanted you could interpret them as quite meaningless since both G/S flirted with almost everybody.

i was refering to the fact that Jorja's first sentence on the slip when she went to the CSI casting read 'love interest for Grissom'. that somewhere inside TPTB's minds the idea of them together was there before Jorja was even casted. surely, they didn't have to go with it, and you can see the hesitance in the first seasons but the general idea was there. it's kind of when they wanted Cath&Nick to be together only decided it won't work. *shrugs*

 

You're totally missing my point here. My point is at the end of Season 3, in the episode "Play With Fire," Sara explicitly asked Grissom out. He shot her down. He also indicated that nothing would or could ever happen between the two of them.

Then there was a couple of scenes in Season 5, like "Snakes," where she said he was the reason for her moving to Vegas. He was really confused about that. I can't remember if he said something about it, but I think he did.

Then came "Weeping Willows," where he got mad at Catherine for meeting and making out with Adam Novak at that bar, when by that time, he was probably already boinking Sara, or they were near that point? Does anyone actually know when they really became intimate? I know Sara said Two years at the beginning of Season 8...but I don't quite understand how the time works, so for all I know, they could have gotten together right after the events of "Nesting Dolls."

Again, with the missing my point....My beef is with the GSr stuff, given what he'd said in Season 3 to Sara, and any hints afterward were explicitly shot down. Then, Lo and Behold, she comes striding out of his bathroom in a robe.

Nick and Greg, Danny and Flack, those are different. The biggest thing is that they're not Canon, and so it's a moot point.

Also, there was not the hypocritical proseletizing about being ethical while banging a subbordinate. Greg isn't subbordinate to Nick, Danny isn't subbordinate to Flack. I make no regards about the ethics of any of the other ships.

Now, if Catherine were Warrick's boss, and they started something, I'd have some issues there, but alas....that ship has unfortunately been blown out of the water.

 

this is your interpretation, not a fact. he said "i don't know what to do about this" which in my opinion is hardly the equivalent of implying that nothing could ever happen between them. on the contrary, to me it meant that he is confused and undecided but he acknowledged that there actually is *something* between them.

Butterflied came only 13 episodes later and we hear what were the hidden reasons behind his decision. of course nothing was said directly so you still don't have to believe the whole ep was about Sara, but about LH or Terri or whoever else. to me it would be kinda hard since there are hints to Sara in half of the scenes, but everybody is free to think what they want.

Weeping Willows was before Grave Danger and so far most people assume it happened after that episode. but i can see your point. he was harsh on Catherine, maybe even too harsh and i think he realized that afterwards. she tried to explain to him the need for human connection but he dissmissed it. what if he later realized that Catherine was right? or isn't he allowed to change his opinion, especially after the events in Grave Danger?

how are they different? are you sure there is no fraternizing rule in the lab? what if i tell you that homosexual relationships are thought of by many people as unethical? fraternizing or sleeping with you boss is not illigal, but is against the internal rules of the CSI institution (Grissom and Sara were hardly penalized by Ecklie anyway). you won't go to jail for committing any of it so it all depends on your own ethical code which for every person is different. we can argue about it forever, but like Erica said, i've had this discussion about a billion times before so it's a bit pointless.

 

Ships are a good thing, if done well, because they provide an occasional needed breather from the dark material of a police procedural. However, when a ship becomes such a focal point that there has to be a reference to it in every episode, I have to wonder if TPTB haven’t lost contact with the core of the show. I dislike GSR for a couple of reasons:
As one who worked for “the government,” I know exactly how TPTB there would have reacted to a supervisor having a relationship with a subordinate, especially one who has documented drinking and emotional stability problems: the boss would be removed from his position if not fired. In this instance, had this been reality, Ecklie would have left himself open to censure from his superiors. A government office - whether it be local, state or federal - faces more repercussions from this kind of behavior than private industry. As you hear over and over again in the dialogue on each of tv’s police procedurals, you are held to a higher standard than is the general public. Also, government workers have more recourse than private industry in questioning hiring and promotions. A disgruntled employee’s complaint, true or not, would reflect badly upon the competency of the whole unit. Defense lawyers, sharks that they are, would love this ship because they could throw evidence back at the prosecution and get cases reopened, whether or not there was merit: when the supervisor is involved with the subordinate, there is legitimate concern over the quality of the supervision of evidence collection, processing.
On a more personal level, I just don’t get it. Good actors should be able to “make the sparks fly” to a degree that is obvious to all. I usually sense that right away. There is just nothing there when WP and JF are on the screen. It's like "here it is, now believe in it" every time they are together. I don’t have a preference for Grissom to ship with anyone in particular, but I sense more chemistry between non-canon-ships like Mac/Stella on NY or Horatio/Yelina on Miami. That WP says it’s so doesn’t automatically guarantee we will feel it. And we should be able to feel it, not force ourselves to believe in it, whether we think the ship is good for the show or not.

 

some people feel it, some people don't. you can't generalize that b/c you don't feel it, nobody does. most people who watch CSI don't care for any ship whatsoever (especially men) so i don't think it matters that much. besides, when i look at a number of GSR fics, GSR authors and readers (which is the only data that tells us something about how many pro-GSR people are there; internet polls are not reliable even though the ones i saw show a 60-70 over 40-30% advantage in favor of GSR) quite a lot of people fancy it.

and now my question: would you like to watch all that? cuz it would be soooo boring. this is not real life, the reason for CSI is to entertain people who come home from their stressful work and want to relax, watch something that is not a mindless reality show. and if they decided to resolve it the way you desribed it, it would loose its purpose.

 

And you know this how? This is you assuming. And I believe we all know what happeneds when you assume. Yes, people want to be entertained, but people also hate to have their intelligence insulted.:scream:

All I've heard you do is rant and attempt to make something true that obviously isn't. Us being forcefed this ship is ridiculous. A ship that is this talked about and that is discussed so much, shouldn't require such explanations. It should be valid without people jumping through hoops to explain it. IMO, for it to truly be canon, they shouldn't have to explain every little detail and aspect of the relationships. It should come naturally.

 

Well i think thats wrong, why would it be unethical by who's standards? I think its about time that theres was a GLBT couple on CSI, and none other than Nick/Greg in LV and Danny/Flack in NY. Because same sex couples arent mentioned in any of the CSIs' then yeah its different, because these ships could and should be cannon.

 

One of the points I was trying to make, kimbo08

And Adzix, if I were watching other CBS shows, say, The Young and the Restless, I wouldn't have a problem with the activity, in fact I'd probably enjoy it. But, as noted early on, CSI is a procedural. Once TPTB committed to that premise, they gave fans the expectation that a certain amount of logic would adhere throughout the series. I'm sure, despite WP's comments about how it was all planned, TPTB started scrambling for ideas when Grey's began to challenge CSI in the ratings. Advanced GSR was probably the agreed upon response; counter romance with romance. And the heck with the show's procedural premise.

 

I honestly believe that that was their plan to rahkira. Grey's started gaining a large amount of viewers, and as we all know became quite a threat to CSI. So TPTb for CSI must have looked at grey's game plan and realized that what was drawing most fans was the romance. So CSI sacraficed its integrity IMO, to satisfy a very small amount of fans that want to see two characters hook up. Obviously what drew the fans in the first place was the crimes, the suspects, and all of the interesting steps that were taken to pursue such suspects not the so called canon relationship of GSR.