The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

[Kimmychu]

kimbo08 said:
You know what, I had been debating. I was kind and didn't do a thing to them until, I was offended. So if you want to single me out, thats fine!:lol: She called me a troll BEFORE I even made the above comment. But whatever, Moderate as you see fit...

Ah, and I suppose these are your definitions of being 'kind'?

- And you know this how? This is you assuming. And I believe we all know what happeneds when you assume.

- All I've heard you do is rant and attempt to make something true that obviously isn't. Us being forcefed this ship is ridiculous. A ship that is this talked about and that is discussed so much, shouldn't require such explanations. It should be valid without people jumping through hoops to explain it. IMO, for it to truly be canon, they shouldn't have to explain every little detail and aspect of the relationships. It should come naturally.

- I've only posted twice, and I'm already done trying to get it through your head. You purposely move past all logic. We attempt to find a somewhat common ground, and you bring on the same thoughtless statements one after the other. Its as if you go to your previous posts, and complain about the same things, you just use different dialouge.

You were trolling long before anyone called you out on it. Don't even try to twist things by implying I only warned you for trolling/bashing because someone called you on it first. The quoted examples above are proof you were anything but 'kind' or 'debating'.

Your condenscension and disrecpect is really showing now. If you continue to behave this way, you'll get an official warning for trolling/bashing.

 

[T'Bonz]

Slight sidetrack while I step in here:

First - When disagreeing with each other on anything on the board, be it a ship or opinion of a show, politeness should be paramount. EVEN if you think someone is lacking in intelligence.

For instance, if you don't like their opinion of a 'ship, state the reason why in neutral terms. For example, here is a right way and wrong way.

Right: They make a bad couple because he has (bad habit,) and she is better suited to go with (other character.)

Wrong: How can you believe they're a couple? Are you freakin' blind? He has (bad habit) and it's OBVIOUS TO ANY MORON that she is better suited to go with (other character.) Continuing to like this character shows that you're an utter dolt.

See the difference? Both give the same opinion, but one is polite and respectful and one is rude and nasty.

Secondly: If you find yourself getting personal, then you are too angry. You are too invested in a (enjoyable) but fictional show and you need to walk away from the computer until you can regain your composure and manners. We don't like it when people get personal here. And there is NO reason to do so!

See, I love certain fictional characters. But I don't give two damns if someone prefers different ones or hates mine. Why? As much as I love them, they're not REAL. It's a compliment to the writers and actors if you identify so closely with a fictional character, but don't let your like overrule your common sense and behavior. If it does, again, walk away.

The forum is for the discussion of characters, not posters. Going to the personal with a poster is off-topic. Calling someone a moron, an idiot, stupid, or any insult is flaming. Trying to bait someone by name-calling is trolling. You may hold a different opinion than someone else and say so politely. That is NOT trolling. It is a contrary opinion and something that generates discussion, which is part of the purpose of a messageboard.

So let's cool it down here. Stop with being insulting to each other, belittling one another, cursing or ranting at someone. If you are that angry, you really should walk away for a bit. Do you not come online to enjoy? Getting into a fight with either posters or mods is not enjoyable.

Thanks. Resume your shipping. Any comments to me may go to my PM box.

P.S. If you can't convince someone of your position, don't try forever. Sometimes the best option is to let something drop.

 

[happyharper13]

Anyone still on this thread?

 

[Kimbo08]

I suppose we should post in it again...It's taken me six months to calm down, but I'm here!

So, I guess we should start something we ALL can debate on; GSR?

GSR fans, I would love for someone to try and show me why you believe in GSR. I'm all for being tolerant, I just want to see what you guys see.

 

[myfuturecsi]

I suppose we should post in it again...It's taken me six months to calm down, but I'm here!

So, I guess we should start something we ALL can debate on; GSR?

GSR fans, I would love for someone to try and show me why you believe in GSR. I'm all for being tolerant, I just want to see what you guys see.

My issue with GSR was it took too long and too much screen time. It felt forced when it finally came together and I think my issue around the relationship was Sara was going through all this angst and stuff and poof her problems went away when Grissom and her got together. Maybe that's not how the writers meant for it to show, but that's how it came across to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

It was a storyline, though, that was going to be explored whether we liked it or not. It was there from the start, but it took so darn long for them to get together that I grew tired of it.

So it's not so much GSR I had the issue with, but how it was presented. How it took over the show for one season and how the other characters were left to the sidelines as a result.

The relationship itself felt awkward. It was very angsty and the two of them took themselves way too seriously. Even David Rambo himself said they needed to get over themselves. Eventually they did, but that's one reason I didn't like GSR-it was so angsty and depressing.

But that's me. I guess it worked for some fans.

 

[happyharper13]

I suppose we should post in it again...It's taken me six months to calm down, but I'm here!

So, I guess we should start something we ALL can debate on; GSR?

GSR fans, I would love for someone to try and show me why you believe in GSR. I'm all for being tolerant, I just want to see what you guys see.

I'm really not a big GSR shipper, but I'll respond to that. I honestly liked the subtext of earlier seasons between these two. I think they both are socially... challenged, and that they'd balance each other out. I can see them ending up as some kind of old married couple -- the kind that could sit in the living room for hours without talking while each spends the night immersed in a different book and/or forensics magazine, and then they'd end up sleeping in the same bed. I don't see them as a super-romantic couple, but more as two characters who ended up together by default and who did, on occasion, have their little subtexty moments.

That said, it's when their relationship became overly romance-y that I started to find it very annoying. I can respect their characters and I don't think they would ever end up writing cheesy love letters or being overtly romantic. I think that the reason the bedroom season felt so forced was that it was a private moment, which is reflective of the fact that GSR was a private couple. I think that TPTB should have kept with that and not made the ship public by putting romance scenes for them on the show. I hope that makes sense.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Well, I"m not gonna say too much about GSR. I'm not a fan of that ship personally, but that's mainly because I was a Gil/Cath fan from the very first time I saw them on screen together. I just personally liked their interaction. And that was before Sara came there, so I just kind of stuck to that. I do agree though that some of the subtext was kind of cute like the pin me up - i love my job scene. :lol:

 

[jafox]

I suppose we should post in it again...It's taken me six months to calm down, but I'm here!

So, I guess we should start something we ALL can debate on; GSR?

GSR fans, I would love for someone to try and show me why you believe in GSR. I'm all for being tolerant, I just want to see what you guys see.

Well, I love a challenge! So here goes:

I look at GSR mostly within the context of the first 2 seasons and the last 3. From what I have read in interviews, this relationship was planned in the beginning and was thought to be a way to ultimately have the characters exit. Once tptb realized the show would be on a long time, they pulled back on the relationship and may have been torn about whether to commit to it at all. I'm sure they didn't want to restrict their leading man's ability to flirt or possibly have other relationships. So there were a lot of roadblocks and sometimes cold interaction between the two after season 2. In seasons 3 & 4 especially: Sara had Hank, Grissom had LH, then Sofia, and every other female star. All to mix things up, I guess.

But ultimately for me, even watching the 'filler' seasons 3,4, and 5, when there was no obvious relationship, there always seemed to be something between WP and JF. Even when Sara should have been thoroughly pissed at Grissom or he seemed to be avoiding her and pushing her away, I thought they had some great, often tense, moments. And they weren't necessarily shippy moments, they were just good together IMO. Season 4 was a trainwreck for Sara, but at the end of it when Grissom picked her up at the police station, his tender side toward her appeared again. So it was kind of cyclic: seasons 1 & 2 had some cute moments, seasons 3 & 4 were more angst and tension filled, then in season 5 Sara became stronger, stopped her pursuit of Grissom, and they seemed to start rebuilding a relationship. Then in seasons 6 & 7 when they were together their scenes became fun again.

Now that we know both JF and WP were thinking about leaving after season 7, I guess that's when tptb decided to finally show them together and map out their exits. And I really think their relationship was portrayed tastefully and subtlely. The truth is if you don't like them together you won't like any scenes they have together, so it would seem overwhelming. But if you look at the actual screen time they had, it wasn't that much. And I will definitely admit to not liking the angst in season 9; but we now know that WP was suppose to leave at the end of season 8, but the writer's strike postponed his exit. So the storyline, and the angst, was drawn out with Sara leaving yet again, and LH showing up yet again. And, trust me, no GSR fan liked that angle. But I guess they had to create more Grissom drama. Now that I know we got a 'happy ending', it's easier to accept the angst. (Although I'm not sure I could ever watch The Happy Place again)

Personally, I love complex characters and relationships. And I love controversy. So, for me, GSR is perfect. Or, should I say, perfectly imperfect. I thought it was an intriguing love story told over a span of 8-9 years, on a 'procedural' crime show with limited screen time by two dedicated actors; an ambitious undertaking for a tv show about death. There were lots of ups and downs, but what real relationship doesn't struggle, especially when it's between 2 social misfits with communication issues. There may have been some missteps and inconsistencies along the way in writing their story, but the characters and their relationship were wonderfully portrayed by Billy and Jorja, and stayed perfectly in character.

Sorry, I didn't intend to write a novel.

 

[myfuturecsi]

Now that we know both JF and WP were thinking about leaving after season 7, I guess that's when tptb decided to finally show them together and map out their exits. And I really think their relationship was portrayed tastefully and subtlely. The truth is if you don't like them together you won't like any scenes they have together, so it would seem overwhelming.

To me it was overwhelming because their scenes came at the expense of the development of other characters. We never saw any repercussion of Nick after his burial. Season six's Gum Drops was never even meant to be for Nick, it was supposed to be the great GSR episode.

I don't blame GSR, but I blame the writers for catering to the relationship and to the actors who were planning to leave. Even other GSR fans on other boards have said the writers should have spent more time developing the other characters rather than focus all their attention on GSR.

GSR worked for a lot of people, but it didn't for me. But no ship should come at the cost of development of other fine characters.

 

[Adzix]

anybody else noticed there could be something between Ray and Wendy? they were a bit overfriendly in the last episode. isn't Ray married though?

 

[happyharper13]

I suppose we should post in it again...It's taken me six months to calm down, but I'm here!

So, I guess we should start something we ALL can debate on; GSR?

GSR fans, I would love for someone to try and show me why you believe in GSR. I'm all for being tolerant, I just want to see what you guys see.

Well, I love a challenge! So here goes:

I look at GSR mostly within the context of the first 2 seasons and the last 3. From what I have read in interviews, this relationship was planned in the beginning and was thought to be a way to ultimately have the characters exit. Once tptb realized the show would be on a long time, they pulled back on the relationship and may have been torn about whether to commit to it at all. I'm sure they didn't want to restrict their leading man's ability to flirt or possibly have other relationships. So there were a lot of roadblocks and sometimes cold interaction between the two after season 2. In seasons 3 & 4 especially: Sara had Hank, Grissom had LH, then Sofia, and every other female star. All to mix things up, I guess.

But ultimately for me, even watching the 'filler' seasons 3,4, and 5, when there was no obvious relationship, there always seemed to be something between WP and JF. Even when Sara should have been thoroughly pissed at Grissom or he seemed to be avoiding her and pushing her away, I thought they had some great, often tense, moments. And they weren't necessarily shippy moments, they were just good together IMO. Season 4 was a trainwreck for Sara, but at the end of it when Grissom picked her up at the police station, his tender side toward her appeared again. So it was kind of cyclic: seasons 1 & 2 had some cute moments, seasons 3 & 4 were more angst and tension filled, then in season 5 Sara became stronger, stopped her pursuit of Grissom, and they seemed to start rebuilding a relationship. Then in seasons 6 & 7 when they were together their scenes became fun again.

Now that we know both JF and WP were thinking about leaving after season 7, I guess that's when tptb decided to finally show them together and map out their exits. And I really think their relationship was portrayed tastefully and subtlely. The truth is if you don't like them together you won't like any scenes they have together, so it would seem overwhelming. But if you look at the actual screen time they had, it wasn't that much. And I will definitely admit to not liking the angst in season 9; but we now know that WP was suppose to leave at the end of season 8, but the writer's strike postponed his exit. So the storyline, and the angst, was drawn out with Sara leaving yet again, and LH showing up yet again. And, trust me, no GSR fan liked that angle. But I guess they had to create more Grissom drama. Now that I know we got a 'happy ending', it's easier to accept the angst. (Although I'm not sure I could ever watch The Happy Place again)

Personally, I love complex characters and relationships. And I love controversy. So, for me, GSR is perfect. Or, should I say, perfectly imperfect. I thought it was an intriguing love story told over a span of 8-9 years, on a 'procedural' crime show with limited screen time by two dedicated actors; an ambitious undertaking for a tv show about death. There were lots of ups and downs, but what real relationship doesn't struggle, especially when it's between 2 social misfits with communication issues. There may have been some missteps and inconsistencies along the way in writing their story, but the characters and their relationship were wonderfully portrayed by Billy and Jorja, and stayed perfectly in character.

Sorry, I didn't intend to write a novel.

Thanks jtd. You make a very compelling argument and I can see it a little better from the pro-GSR angle now. Good job

anybody else noticed there could be something between Ray and Wendy? they were a bit overfriendly in the last episode. isn't Ray married though?

I thought that they were both in character and that that resulted in what might be construed, from the outside, as some sort of chemistry. I think they had platonic chemistry and made a great team. I think they clicked over being the low (wo)men on the totem pole. I can see good platonic chemistry and even maybe a bit of potential for something of a father/daughter relationship between the two of them. More than anything, they just worked well together, IMO.

 

[Kimbo08]

Well, he could be married. I don't think it's been confirmed. I think maybe his wife died, and he's a widower. Maybe at his own hand? If that's the case, then Wendy isn't off limits. . Am I the only one that wants to see Catherine and Ray together? I don't know what it is, but I would love to see them together.

Back to GSR, I really agree with myfuturecsi. Other characters suffered in the last few season because of the development of GSR. I mean, we saw more into GSR's issues this season, then the teams reaction to Warrick dying, and to me, that is so ass backwards. A character died, and rather than see the repercussions of that, we are seeing Gil's reaction to Sara leaving yet again? TPTB had it all messed up. Yes, I know they were doing alot with GSR because WP time was coming to an end. But that doesn't make it right. Plus, they spent more time on Sara's good bye Real World style goodbye tape then what the spent on Nick, Cath, and Greg's grieving period. So not right.

I think I would have been more tolerant of GSR had it not dominated so much screen time. Like myfuturecsi said, had it not been WP nephew's death around the time of Gum Drops, then it would've been another GSR induced episode. The only way the other actors can get anything good is if a circumstance like the above happens? That just doesn't seem right or fair to not only the actors and the characters, but to the other fans who have stuck with the show from the beginning. Each character deserves to get quality stuff written about them, regardless of what ship they are apart of.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

anybody else noticed there could be something between Ray and Wendy? they were a bit overfriendly in the last episode. isn't Ray married though?

To me it felt like he was the professor and she was the student. That's the vibe I got. I didn't see anything overly friendly personally. I saw more between Wendy and Vartann in that ep than I did Wendy and Ray, and that's only just barely. :lol: It was even more like a protective big brother/father type of deal with W/V. I'm not strictly Wedges though. I could see Wendy with Archie, possible Greg maybe even Nick.

I thought that they were both in character and that that resulted in what might be construed, from the outside, as some sort of chemistry. I think they had platonic chemistry and made a great team. I think they clicked over being the low (wo)men on the totem pole. I can see good platonic chemistry and even maybe a bit of potential for something of a father/daughter relationship between the two of them. More than anything, they just worked well together, IMO.

My thoughts exactly. They do have good working chemistry in the same way she and Grissom had, but I don't see any romantic potential there personally.

Personally, I can't see Ray romantically involved with Catherine. Honestly, I don't even see much chemistry between the two of them at all. I was watching one ep the other day and thought about how the chemistry seems a little lacking. I mean Cath and Griss had chemistry coming out of their ears whether it be romantic or friendly (I could see either), but to me Cath just seems sort or nonchalant with Ray. :shrugs:

 

[myfuturecsi]

Interesting. Wendy and Ray?

I don't think we know if Ray is married but I remember he looked at his wedding band in either One to Go or Nineteen Down. But he could have been married.

Hey Wendy would be good for him. A little young, but hey I'd like it.:thumbsup:

 

[happyharper13]

Personally, I still absolutely love Wendy with Greg. They did almost-sorta become canon in Spellbound when she got Greg to take her and her friend Julie out to dinner in exchange for DNA results.

(From Crimelab.NL

[INT. CSI - HALLWAY - NIGHT -- CONTINUOUS]

(Greg and Wendy are on the move through the hallway.)

WENDY SIMMS: Hey, I'm on a break. I'll see you in twenty.

GREG: Vending machine's on me if you give me your results first.

WENDY SIMMS: No, make it dinner.

GREG: Me and you?

WENDY SIMMS: Me, you and my friend Julie.

GREG: Okay, but I get to sit in the middle.

WENDY SIMMS: Deal.

(They enter the break room.)

Personally, I love Wendy. It feels like in many episodes, they've made her her relationship with Hodges the crux of her character, which is disappointing. I love Greg, but find Hodges very aggravating, and I think Wendy and Greg have great chemistry.

If she wasn't with Greg, I'd probably be rooting for Wendy/Archie. They made a big deal out of the fact that Wendy and Hodges were both trekkies, but, to my knowledge, Archie was the original resident trekkie on CSI. Plus, he's more affable, genuine and socially skilled, IMO. And I think they would make a cuter couple.