The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

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Re: The Great Ship Debate

The difference is, I suppose, that I don't see this as "punishment" for "unethical" behavior. I see it as the natural consequences of not handling their situation as adroitly as they could have, because neither one is shrewd enough to forsee & manipulate the office politics involved.
That's part of why I like the couple, though. They're refreshingly innocent, in a way.
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Each to there own I say. I don't find this couple innocent. In part, Grissom is a Supervisor and knows the repercussions behind his decision. If they were innocent...they would not purposely be going out of their way to hide their 'innocent' yet romancing relationship. They both are aware of the politics behind it...hence the reason for the hush-hush. Grissom might not like the politics of his job...but he's very aware of them. But you just hit the nail on the head...as to one of the reasons why I DISLIKE this ship!!!! THey seem dishonest. And that seems so out of character for both of them.

I do however agree that if Cath and Nick were in a relationship...I can totally see Catherine handling this properly. Actually...she'd handle it the way GSR should have handled it...but chose not to. I mean when it comes down to it...it was a choice they made...a poor one in my books. But then again it was TPTB that choose to write GSR this way...oh wells, maybe the bad taste will leave my mouth regarding this couple once its out in the open. :D Which I'm so looking forward too.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I don't think she meant innocent as in "not guilty". I think she meant innocent as in naive.
And I do think that they're naive. Grissom barreling down the hallway being giddy to see Sara in Law of Gravity suggests that the foremost thing on his mind was seeing her, not the fact that he could potentially be seen, and it might cause some raised eyebrows or people might overhear them.

Whether or not Grissom is actively aware of how this could all turn out doesn't seem to phase him either way. And I think, again, it's because this has been his style from Day 1. So long as the job is getting done, who the hell cares about my employees' personal lives?

I do however agree that if Cath and Nick were in a relationship...I can totally see Catherine handling this properly. Actually...she'd handle it the way GSR should have handled it...but chose not to.
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I'm sorry, but CATHERINE? Catherine has broken every rule in the book.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I don't find this couple innocent. In part, Grissom is a Supervisor and knows the repercussions behind his decision. If they were innocent...they would not purposely be going out of their way to hide their 'innocent' yet romancing relationship. They both are aware of the politics behind it...hence the reason for the hush-hush. Grissom might not like the politics of his job...but he's very aware of them. But you just hit the nail on the head...as to one of the reasons why I DISLIKE this ship!!!! THey seem dishonest. And that seems so out of character for both of them.
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I'm not saying I disagree with you - I definitely think it's a mistake on their part, and that the repercussions of it will come back on them. Maybe it's more to do with an attitude I take towards television shows: I see no point in hating characters for doing things wrong... because the long and short of it is, these are not real people. Moreover, writers have to write flawed characters; otherwise we're stuck with Mary Sues/Gary Stus that we just want to beat over the head for being so unbelievably perfect.

I do disagree that such a mistake is out of character for Grissom and Sara, though. Past storylines have shown that while Grissom and Sara are aware of office politics, that doesn't always dictate the course of their actions to them. Grissom knew that he could get into trouble when he covered up Catherine's check; he did it anyway, because retaining one of his top CSIs was more important. Sara knew that she deserved a suspension when she lashed out at Cath in "Nesting Dolls"; that didn't stop her from snarking further on Ecklie - she was mad, and knowing that she should keep her mouth shut wasn't enough to stop her from doing so. I see this as much the same thing. Again, assuming that the lab does have rules about this sort of thing and strictly enforces those rules, Grissom and Sara are aware of the politics, but too convinced of their own private convictions and feelings to put much stock into them. Is that a mistake? Most definitely. Is it understandable? I think so. Is it in character? Oh yes.

That Grissom and Sara would make this mistake is a logical storyline to me. They're not trying to be evil or screw anyone over, but they are screwing up big-time, and I've seen enough hints this season to convince me that TPTB are not going to ignore that. Essentially "good" characters that make believable mistakes that the writers explore in later events? That's a huge part of creating an awesome storyline. Why would I hate characters that are not evil and are contributing to an awesome storyline?

I suppose it's like my philosophy about going to a magic show: I'm just more interested in how the illusion is created than in the illusion itself. Gil and Sara aren't real people; as far as I'm concerned, hating them is a waste of energy and time. Now if TPTB were writing Gil and Sara the way Meredith/Derek or Izzie/George have been written on Grey's? MAJOR frakking hatred. But not for the characters; oh no, then my hatred would be for the incredibly stupid TPTB that are subjecting me to such a illogical, ill-handled storyline! As the immortal Frank Boyle once said, I could eat a bowl of Alphabets and crap a better plot!!!!

*coughs* Yeah, I, uh... I got some problems with GA these days....
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I don't think she meant innocent as in "not guilty". I think she meant innocent as in naive.
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Hahaha...yeah I know what she meant...any way you word it...I don't see it that way. I don't find Grissom nor Sara naive in their relationship. To me Grissom has always come across that he could care less about politics and chose to ignore them or passed them off on Catherine to deal with. I think it's the same way with his relationship with Sara.

Sara also knows the politics of what their relationship can cost them. They both know...it's not like we are dealing with teenagers in a job...these are grown adults that have been working in this field for years!

That Grissom and Sara would make this mistake is a logical storyline to me. They're not trying to be evil or screw anyone over, but they are screwing up big-time, and I've seen enough hints this season to convince me that TPTB are not going to ignore that. Essentially "good" characters that make believable mistakes that the writers explore in later events? That's a huge part of creating an awesome storyline. Why would I hate characters that are not evil and are contributing to an awesome storyline?
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That is exactly what I meant about them being dishonest. Yet they are coming across that way. Of course its logical for Grissom to dismiss the politcal side of his job...but that is far from being innocent... I'm wondering if his full integrity will be on display for next season as far as being a good supervisor. It seemed a lot happened to his staff this year. Not to mention the team as a whole.

Of course they all make their fair share of mistakes. Every character on CSI has...though this part of GSR...I don't find this season with GSR as an awesome storyline. Now...the finale might be the best part of it depending on how they handle it. I'm just grinning from ear to ear that they will be officially outed!!! Not that I think it will be the end of anything...but it will definately change things.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'm sorry, but CATHERINE? Catherine has broken every rule in the book.
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Lmao, thats why I love her! I think what Waiting meant was that Cath has had MUCH more relationship experience than Gil (and possibly Sara.) so she would know how to handle a relationship with someone at work perhaps better than them? I dunno, thats kinda what I think.

GSR needs to be revealed. *jigs* can't wait till it is. Woot.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Hahaha...yeah I know what she meant...any way you word it...I don't see it that way. I don't find Grissom nor Sara naive in their relationship. To me Grissom has always come across that he could care less about politics and choose to ignore them or passed them off on Catherine to deal with. I think it's the same way with his relationship with Sara.

Sara also knows the politics of what their relationship can cost them. They both know...it's not like we are dealing with teenagers in a job...these are grown adults that have been working in this field for years!
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Okay. Well, I've backed up my opinion with events from canon history that would seem to offer proof of what I'm saying. If you would do the same, I'll read it with a open mind.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Whats up with people and "back it up" talks? Everytime I come in here its all, "back it up!" ..
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Whats up with people and "back it up" talks? Everytime I come in here its all, "back it up!" .
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I know its quite funny.


Okay. Well, I've backed up my opinion with events from canon history that would seem to offer proof of what I'm saying. If you would do the same, I'll read it with a open mind.
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Well in one episode Grissom pretty much made Catherine do his speech. WHich is his job...yet he left her there to handle it when something work related came up. I just have always had that impression that he didn't care to much about politics.

I don't have anything to back up regarding his take on the politics revolving around his relationship with sara...it's my opinion. It's the way I see it.

Also this is a quote from WP regarding why they are taking GSR slow and keeping it hidden. “I think they’ve been very careful, because it’s obviously a very dicey situation at work if this was a relationship that was uncovered,” Petersen says.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/09/post.html

Here is another quote...

“We will always be a show about science, mystery, clues, and twists and turns. And this is a twist and turn. But it’s not going to be the Grissom-Sara show from now on.”


Thank goodness!!!!

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/05/solving_the_mys.html
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Whats up with people and "back it up" talks? Everytime I come in here its all, "back it up!" .
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I know its quite funny.
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Well, if thousands of years of practice in human dialogue and interaction can be called "funny", I suppose....

This thread is called a debate thread, and not a "spew-your-opinions-here!" thread, for a reason. "Debate" implies that there has to be a logical argument* for believing what you believe - doesn't it? I can respect anybody's opinion about anything, no matter how different it is from my own - but I don't give that respect unless that opinion is supported by a rational, well-thought-out argument that is based in canon.

Otherwise, all I've got to go on is that this is your opinion because it's what you feel. While people are entitled to their opinions, how am I supposed to know whether there's any kind of sense to those opinions if people don't explain to me what they're thinking? And if people don't use facts from canon in those explanations, how am I supposed to understand that these opinions and explanations have any sort of grounding in terms of what we actually see on the show?

I will respect and defend anybody's right to have an opinion... but if you expect me to respect the opinion itself, then yeah, you'd better explain it and back it up with canon. Otherwise I'll just dismiss it - not because I'm trying to be rude or dismissive of you and your right to that opinion, but because statements can't be treated as imparting any kind of importance or insight if they're not grounded in anything besides a person's own mind and feelings.

I'm sure most people actually do have reasons for their opinions - and that's exactly what I'm saying: explain it to me. Prove to me that what you're saying makes sense in terms of what we've seen on the show.

*I mean"argument" as it's used in logic and philosophy, where you don't make a statement without reasoning to it from known premises - not "argument" as in yelling with somebody about something you disagree on.

Well in one episode Grissom pretty much made Catherine do his speech. WHich is his job...yet he left her there to handle it when something work related came up. I just have always had that impression that he didn't care to much about politics.
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I agree; he doesn't. He's aware of them, I think, for the most part - probably through sheer exposure - but he doesn't pay too much attention. Heh - I'd forgotten about the speech scene; I'd have ripped him a new one if I'd been Catherine! I know she's broken a lot of rules that he's had to cover for, but on the other hand he's really taken advantage of her a few times, too.

I don't have anything to back up regarding his take on the politics revolving around his relationship with sara...it's my opinion. It's the way I see it.
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*shrugs* That's up to you. I figured I'd ask, anyway.

Thansk for the Chicago Tribune articles. As much as I like the ship and would love to see it on a relationship-drama show, just to see where WP and JF could go with it, I really don't want CSI to turn into that kind of show either. Snippets of their personal lives are fine with me.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I don't see how/why people should back up thier opinions with "evidence", peeeople, we aren't on CSI, we don't need evidence :p *dodges flying objects thrown her way* lol.

But ok, seen as we using potential evidence, this quote from the man himself backs me up a little lol.

[about GSR] "I don't think it'd be good for Grissom who's a supervisor, and I don't think it'd be good for Sara, who's a subordinate."

It's from an interview, and don't ask me to find it because I really can't remember where I saw it. Billy does really seem to bat for both sides right?! It's all about interpretation though I supose.

--ETA-- I just found the video on my pc. Crediting BTA for it.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well, if thousands of years of practice in human dialogue and interaction can be called "funny", I suppose....

This thread is called a debate thread, and not a "spew-your-opinions-here!" thread, for a reason. "Debate" implies that there has to be a logical argument* for believing what you believe - doesn't it? I can respect anybody's opinion about anything, no matter how different it is from my own - but I don't give that respect unless that opinion is supported by a rational, well-thought-out argument that is based in canon.
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To be honest I find it funny because I'm only asked to back my opinions up by GSR fans. I'm not singling anyone out...that is true. Its in this thread if you want to go find it. Not to mention that at times some of their arguments are far from logical...and not backed up...but are just mere opinions. Yet I don't see anyone asking them to back up their reasonings. Oh wait...why would you!!! :D Hahah...there was a nice one on the season 7 spoilers page were it obviously didn't belong.

I find my arguements logical. :D I might not be able to back them up all the time because its an opinion..., but they are logical in my book. Sometimes opinions is the only thing we can go by if it hasn't been proved yet. I will give an example, my opinion is that Grissom and Sara chose to ignore the political aspects of their relationship...which in the long run is a pretty big deal. I can't back this...because well for starters they haven't been outed. It's just my opinion.

I agree; he doesn't. He's aware of them, I think, for the most part - probably through sheer exposure - but he doesn't pay too much attention. Heh - I'd forgotten about the speech scene; I'd have ripped him a new one if I'd been Catherine! I know she's broken a lot of rules that he's had to cover for, but on the other hand he's really taken advantage of her a few times, too.
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I wouldn't say sheer exposure either...he's in the mix of politics just from his job alone. Especially in the big cases, like the Julie Walters case, or Blood Drops when a family was murdered except for the two sisters. He usually rebuffs the politic side...and granted maybe his behavior is justified from time to time especially when he's compared to Ecklie...who is politically driven in my book...but yet that is something he still has deal with.

I mean when Catherine took over...in the episode of redrum...she had to deal with the politics because she was acting supervisor. She was told by the commissioner that she didn't have the choice in the matter...and that she better go along with it. I think she handled it the way she should have...as a supervisor. If a leak happened to come out from her staff it would have been her @SS. My point is GSR is far from innocent in their relationship. They know...and are keeping things on the DL to avoid the repercussions of their relationship.

Oh and of course the times Catherine has done his paper work because he seems to fall behind on it. She covers for grissom too...they honestly have a good team. Or they did.

I personally don't know why anyone would be upset with this...I mean what I mention above is something I would prefer to play out...instead of a more fatal one. Such as Sara dieing. I just honestly think something will have to give.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

This seems more like a debate GSR thread to me. We don't talk about other ships in here? I see a post by Tuffel a while back that was ignored...

*hugs tuffel* I've seen that thread around, I'll see if I can dig it up for you...
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well, as I recall, last time I brought in another ship I got a lowdown on how it's not that nice to bring in a ship that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.. *shrugs* There is certainly a ship I'd love to discuss, but, I'm afraid I might spoil someone/people.. So I'll wait.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

What ship would you guys like to discuss!!!! Its free game here...I never responded about Cath/Sara thread because I didn't know if there is one. I wasn't trying to ignore anybody! Your not spoiling anything gsrLOVE...please speak your peace!!! :D
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I didn't think anyone was being ignored on purpose, I know you are all nice people, I was just wondering why other ships weren't discussed. I personally don't feel strongly enough about GSR to argue it one way or another, but there are some ships I can talk about until my face turns blue, lol.
 
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