The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'm the same. Honestly, I totally get just not liking a couple. I can't give any Lady Heather episode a fair or impartial rating because of my preference for GSR. Nor can I give any Sofia-centric episode a fair rating for the same reason (at least those in Season 5 or 6 when she was still being treated like a love interest).

Having said that, after Sofia joined, I didn't stop watching the show. I'll watch a Lady Heather episode.

The show, to me, is really, really good right now. I know there are those who don't agree, but I do have to wonder if it isn't tainted by their feelings about GSR. The difference with Heather is that you get a TON of Kessom stuff, but it's regulated to that one episode. With Sofia, sure, she was an interest, and that fact alone annoyed me, but the pair had almost no chemistry, and WP always looked like he was forcing himself to go through the motions with her.

In any event, I get it. I get letting one element spoil the whole experience, but I was watching Grey's last night, and I have to think that you can't ever ship anyone on that show. Even if they get together, both characters will be on to the next lay or breaking up within a couple of weeks.

Last night, two characters had sex out of the blue in the middle of the hospital. I know GA is a soap, and I know it was always intended to be one, I'm just saying things could be a LOT worse. lol.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

That could be true. The thing is I don't dispise GSR. I enjoyed the scenes they shared last night. I just wish they occured in a different environment. Last night to me was the first night that they actually showed something regarding this ship in a while. Besides the razor scene at the end of one episode. The more I think about it...CSI is known for these random moments at the end of episodes....and I'm not talking about just GSR ones, but ones that in general don't relate to any of the cases. I really like when they do random scenes.

To me it spoke volumes that Sara questioned Grissom regarding paying for sex. Not in a bad way...Now honestly, I would have thought she would have known better, but I'm glad to see she felt comfortable enough to ask.

What I miss with this show is the lack of the team being together. My favorite episode this season was Redrum because we get to see all of the characters. They seem to be placed in random scenes. Honestly I'm shocked that GD would resign for season 8 considering he's hardly been in this season alone.

I'm actually ready for more spice regarding GSR. I want to see everyone's reaction regarding to them finding out.

Spoiler: But I have heard

That supposedly Catherine and Nick already know about them. I can't site this because I heard this from someone else.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I again have to agree with Sarah I love this season. and was not happy when Sofia enterd CSI I couldn't stand her, and as time went on, I was getting used to her, then she had me in 'BRTI' pt. 2.. I felt her pain.. and then almost liked her.. but never thought she really added anything paramount to the show, was like kinda of scratching at the door, and couldn't get in! and I absoluetly couldn't stand the 4 eps with that Keppler person, that's when I thought if he doesn't go.. I don't know.. but hung in there.. and BTW, the team was fantastic in spite of him.. and thank gawd he left.. no offense to the actor Schrieber.. [actually these are the only ones I never taped] I'm a die-hard CSI fan. regardless. and guests come and go.. but the main stay team.. is what it's all about! I am hopeful that they give Warrick his own time.. I love him, and want to see where his 'marriage' has gone!! and possibly he'll finally hook up with Cath.. who was so bummed out about this news.. and that Nick finds the right girl and Greggie.. I love the dymanics of the crimes, but like that they add in some personal aspects as well!! these people are not robots , and it's romantic when they give us little tid-bits, now and then, here and there! just enough to whet the appetite!

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Waiting sometimes it sounds like you like GSR.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

To be honest...I'm not against them or for them. I don't see them as this couple that I have to watch. I can tolerate them. Besides this is tv and the possibility of them breaking up is a likely outcome.

Even if Catnip got together...the same outcome is plausible. Hahah...did someone mention YoBling? Yeah anything is possible, but that is what everyone would expect...

Oh...and why all this hate regarding Sophia?!?!?! Just curious...because honestly...I didn't see anything between Grissom and Sophia that would be worth anything. I never thought of them as a couple, and in fact...the only other person I would have seen Grissom hooking up with would have been Catherine. Well...I mean within his work environment. But honestly...I personally think Grissom should not have been hooked up with someone he works with. <---that is my honest stance!

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I knew that there would be GSR yesterday and I tried to look for something even though I'm not a GSR person--and I couldn't find it.

I don't know why, but it's just that--they don't seem happy whatever Grissom insists. They don't have fun and they seem so dull. Gil doesn't seem to love her the way she needs to be loved! Sara needs to be really loved and cared for...

I know for sure that if Sara would let Greg in--he'll care for her and love her and give her the entire world on a platter. He's loved her from the very start--I wish he'd get a chance!

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'm not saying he doesn't love her. He does, and she loves him. I just like him with someone else. Whether it be Cath/Lady H or even Sofia. And I don't hate Sara before people say I do, I see a lot of me in her, I just think she suits Nick better.

I'm a big CSI fan, and I would watch whatever happened, even if Grissom & Sara got married and had babies, then retiered and Grissom was a stay at home dad, I would still watch! That'd be kinda cute actually lmao.

I got love for Sofia, I really like her character. Wish she got more screentime.

TPTB have a hard job. Whatever they do, someones gonna critisize, it's always gonna be that way!

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Into that discussion, I'd like to throw the fact that Catherine said, to her supervisor, in the middle of work,

Pretty unethical and improper to me.

If Sara begged for nights off like that, or admitted she'd done any of those things, and Grissom was covering for her? You'd claim it was a conflict of interest due to his being with her. This clearly shows that Grissom has done it for his co-workers without needing to sleep with them.

Not to mention covering for Warrick after the Holly shooting and keeping Nick out of jail during the Christy investigation.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'm sure you would find that conversation unethical. I can see your point however Grissom has covered Sara's butt numerous times as well. If you look for every single action you are going to find that they all have had moments where they have done things wrong they aren't perfect. Sara covered the fact that she drank before work while using cough drops...she probably would have tested over the legal limit while she was processing a case. Then she gets pulled over while intoxicated. Grissom covered for her every time. Not to mention Grissom covered for Warrick with his gambling problem. The thing is Grissom watches the backs of his staff; however, it becomes a different thing altogether when he decides to romance his subordinate. That's what is different between anything you bring up regarding Cath and Grissom...THEY AREN'T DATING!!!

BTW...I love that conversation because it's hysterical. To me that was more of a friendly talk behind closed doors...but I can see where certains fans would find that unethical. For starters...Grissom was equally unprofessional if you want to bring that up as unprofessional!!!!

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Bolding is mine

I never post in here, mainly because I personally don't see the point in debating about ships. But I'm a stickler for accuracy (it was beaten into be with a thin rod by my journalism tutor... ) so I just had to put my two cents in...

There was never any indication that Grissom knew about Sara's 'drinking', or the cough drop incident (as I like to call it). Brass was the one who knew and "covered" for Sara, not Grissom. And when she was pulled over for being over the limit (and the cop makes it clear that she was only just over, and the limit had just been lowered, thus implying that she wouldn't have been over the limit has she been pulled over just a few days/weeks earlier) the cop calls Grissom and tells him that they're not taking further action. Grissom doesn't cover for her. It's clear that she's put on leave (from the scene at the beginning of 'Viva Las Vegas') and has to attend PEAP sessions. It's also fairly clear that it's also been put on her record, since Ecklie knows about it and Grissom was supposed to do a follow up meeting with her regarding it. So I really don't see how Grissom in any way covered for Sara on this matter.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I've been reading the opinions here for sometime now. First I have to say it's refreshing to see that people can actually debate this issue without it going down to elementary school level as I've seen elsewhere. I was thinking about that scene with Catherine when sarahvma posted it. Grissom is really not a typical supervisor. There have been many times what he's done for his guys. Like he said to the sheriff (I think), the lab is nothing without the people.

I think the difference here is that Sara's almost DUI and Warrick's gambling all went on record, whereas he left Catherine using the lab for DNA out of the report, maybe because he knew the consequences of that are much more serious.

However, I do agree that when they are known to be in a romantic relationship, even if Grissom does something he would have done regardless of whether he is in a relationship or not with that person, people would attach a different connotation to that. It's human nature. But personally I don't think he has done anything for Sara at work so far that he wouldn't have done for any member of his team.

Now if you're saying the romance itself is unethical...hmmm I've thought about this a lot and for me it's not completely black and white. There are so many shades of grey and IMO it depends on the people, place, and so many other factors. It's subjective, but that's just me. Would I be accepting of such a situation in my workplace? It depends on whether I like the people and how it affects me personally.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

As for the "unethical" nature of the relationship, I think that depends exactly on how you define what is "right" and what is "wrong" in this context.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that there are, in fact, rules that prohibit the dating of supervisors and subordinates in the Vegas lab, and that these rules are actually enforced (that is, the lab doesn't do what a lot of law enforcement workplaces do and simply turn a blind eye to it because A, they live and work in an environment that encourages extreme closeness between work colleagues, and B, they know that rules governing human relationships almost always fail because when it comes to each other, people are going to do what they want to do - or, heh, who they want to do). That would have to be in place before you'd have any grounds for calling Grissom's behaviour "unethical" - and so far, we don't know that this is the case - but we'll assume that it is, for now.

If I remember correctly, didn't Grissom make the following quote to the priest in "Altar Boys?"

(You can find this conversation at http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/articles/content/a3172/index-12.html )

This says to me that Grissom, a man who in "Double-Cross" admits that he has some sort of spiritual faith as well as faith in science, nevertheless does not believe in blindly following rules set down by an institution that governs that faith - in this case, the Church.

On top of that, according to the conversation with Catherine given above, he is a man who believes in adhering to the spirit of the policies and procedures of his workplace rather than the letter. This is why he's willing to handle things internally when he believes that it will allow him to keep good people that have learned their lesson, rather than follow these P&Ps strictly and get his people in more trouble than, as he thinks, their behaviour deserves.

Therefore, in light of this, why do people think that Grissom would never, never, never date a woman at work that he's fallen in love with? That he would never date a woman at work casually, I can see. That's precisely what such policies and procedures in the workplace are designed to handle - to erase workplace tension and potential harassment suits due to supervisors and subordinates not being careful enough about making decisions to sleep with each other. Because the majority of workplace liaisons are going to be one-night-stands or casual affairs or marital affairs or relationships that parties have jumped into without really thinking about what they're doing, it's far easier to simply ban such liaisons rather than try to help these people deal with the repercussions of them.

Therefore, the letter of the law is: No relationships under any circumstances. But the letter of the law does not take into account that, sometimes, a supervisor or a subordinate in a workplace might really, really click. They develop a closeness that is not mercurical, groundless, or shallow. They genuinely fall for each other. They're in love. It's genuine, serious, and deep.

Really, there are few among us who are so "ethical" as to throw a relationship that significant away because a workplace rule says that you're not allowed to date them. In that sense, Grissom is as human as the rest of us. Moreover, Grissom is a romantic; we can see that in the fact that he writes love letters with Shakespearian sonnets, in the way that he confesses he doesn't want to have sex if it doesn't come with love. And he has fallen in love with Sara, as he told us last Thursday night. Therefore, putting this together with his beliefs that institutions should not tell people how to live their lives, it makes perfect sense to me that Grissom does not see his relationship with Sara as unethical. If he felt less about her, then it would be. But he doesn't - he loves her deeply, and therefore that trumps manmade rules that portend to govern human relationships and interactions. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Grissom thought that, once he realized that he did love her, that it would in fact be unethical not to pursue it. "This above all: to thine own self be true" is a "rule" of life that I can see Grissom taking very seriously, indeed.

Now if you want to argue that he's handling the situation incorrectly - that he should step down as supervisor, or switch to another shift, or that Sara should switch to another shift, if they really intend to make this relationship work - and that this is where Grissom and Sara are being unethical, then I just might agree with you. I think it's perfectly understandable, mind you, but it's a conclusion whose argument makes sense. However, I strongly suspect the reason they haven't done any of the above is:

---A, the graveyard shift is considered to be the "cream of the crop" of talent (wasn't this reinforced again in "Lab Rats", with Grissom and Robbins snarking on the day shift?), and it would be putting a well-oiled team at a disadvantage to suddenly transfer one of their members out - especially seeing as the two members in question had already been smoothly working together for years (I would argue five) before getting into any sort of relationship.

---B, it's been established several times that between working overtime on the job and going to court and having to eat and sleep, our CSIs have very little time for personal lives. I watched "Harvest" last night - that was the one with the little girl who was basically a organ field for her sick older brother, right? - and Nick was saying that this was the reason he hadn't had time to take his firearms test again. If Grissom and Sara end up on different shifts, exactly when are they going to see each other? They'll be working different cases, working different hours. And while it might be nice to work out a timetable where each one sleeps while the other is working so that they can spend the eight hours off they have in common together, I can tell you from experience that the human body does not work like a well-oiled machine that you can turn on and off with a switch, especially when you work nights. The common complaint that I hear from couples on different shifts is that they never get to see each other. It causes enough difficulty in an established relationship; it'd be disastrous on a new one. Therefore, Grissom and Sara may have decided that they have a better shot at staying together by working the same shift - at least for now.

---C, in the final analysis, this is a television show and Grissom and Sara are fictional characters. Grissom and Sara still work the same shift because the show needs them to work the same shift in order to tell its stories. That said, if TPTB are wise about it, then they will show the fallout from this down the road.

I'm not saying that Grissom and Sara shouldn't face consequences for keeping their relationship a secret. Just because I'm convinced that Grissom does not think he is doing something unethical in the grand scheme of things, and because I'm sympathetic to that point of view (hey, I'm a romantic too), does not mean that Ecklie or the Undersheriff or a few other people in power are going to feel the same way. In fact, the few clues we've been given this season - Grissom and Sara's alarmed look at Ecklie's enigmatic statement in "Built to Kill II", Sara's comment that she hates deception and thinks it eventually comes back on a person in "Redrum" - say quite loudly to me that TPTB do not intend for that aspect of GSR to be swept under the rug. There are consequences to the decisions that we make, especially when they go against the rules of an institution in society - some of the greatest love stories in literature hang upon that fact. I fully believe that, while Grissom and Sara are not doing anything "wrong", they will nevertheless have to pay a price for their relationship. I'm quite looking forward to it. That's what puts the meat into relationship stories.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

wow Dee, i couldn't have said it better myself. i completely agree with everything you said here.

IMO we have so many great arguments pro our ship that it's really getting harder for those who are against it to probatively respond to anything. so either our arguments are ommitted in their responses or the arguments against are very superficial in their analysis.

note: i'm strictly talking only about those who are radically against the ship. cuz i know there is a lot of people who are not crazy about GSR, but they allow the thought of it to come to mind in a positive way sometimes. and it's great to debate with them.

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

You know, the more I read about arguments supporting GSR, the more I am against it. I have always been a supporter of GSR, because I'm glad the two are happy, they make each other happy, that's great, good for them, but... some of these arguments (on both sides) are making me just sick of it.

My points though, I don't think GSR is being shoved down people's throats, but I also think their scenes are forced. This week's seemed like the only natural thing they've done, a nice casual conversation about sex that had SOMETHING to do with the episode. I just... don't think TPTB is handling it very well...

 

Re: The Great Ship Debate

As far as couples who are in law enforcement.. I live here in Vegas. and know of two law officers, who work in the same dept. [she's one of my customers] and their married.. one work's the day shift.. the other swing swift.. and also at my local supermarket also two couples that work in that , they actually encourage it, it's how they handle it that is the key!! I've seen all my life relationships in the work place.. and have never seen a problem.. not to say they're aren't I'm talking about the ones I've been involved in!