The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

[Waiting]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

What about the personal rape kit where she told Hodges and Wendy to screw off?

Yeah she told them to quit being nosy in a meaner sort of way. She should have handled that part differently. But she didn't...and in a sense...I can understand that. She just went through a very scary ordeal...not to mention stressful which makes you act in ways you usually wouldn't. I'd say cut her some slack there. Grissom did!

Sara showing up to work after having something to drink, Nick sleeping with the prostitute, Warrick's gambling... they're always addressed, talked through, etc.

There were a few episodes were Sara had a drinking problem. NOt to mention Brass talked to her about using the bottle and then using cough drops. Then she gets pulled over for being over the limit. I don't think she learned from her mistakes and just stopped...this sort of behavior was drug out over episodes.

Warrick's addiction to gambling...he seemed to get a handle on it...good for him...though you could see his inner struggles he dealt with when he was at a casino on a job assignment. I think this was good to show...because it showed how hard his problem once was.

Nick sleeping with a prostitute...did he sleep with her...I don't really remember if that was confirmed. Its been awhile since I've seen those episodes. Though...honestly I haven't really seen Nick with issues like the others. I could be just drawing a blank though.

Sara getting too personal on cases, Sara showing up to work after having something to drink, Nick sleeping with the prostitute, Warrick's gambling... they're always addressed, talked through, etc.

Sara has always gotten too personal on cases dealing with domestic violence. She never learned from it. Hence in season 5 can't remember the episode she rebuked against Catherine wondering why she acted a certain way. Then Sara became unprofessional towards Cat...and got placed on suspension where grissom covered for her. Sara then confessed to what she witnessed with her parents.

Catherine makes mistakes...but usually they are different. She did test her DNA in lab and found out Sam was her father. Not to bright on her part. Though...the rape kit thing...I just find that a bit different. Can't really explain why...I guess because I think anyone would have ran those results for her if they knew why. She was trying to keep something on the DL from the people she works with. I can get that...sorry. MIght not be right...but its so human.

If Catherine knew 100% that the money from her dad wasn't a bribe, why did she consult a lawyer? Why did she bother telling Grissom about it? Conscience. And Grissom immediately interpreted it as what it could potentially be.

I think she consulted a lawyer in good reason. She actually handled the money from her father professionally. Grissom would automatically think the worse...hence the reason she consulted a lawyer. You honestly can't help who your father is.

Which is why I left it out. I never saw that as being something horrible Catherine did, because she didn't do it on purpose, and she accepted responsibility.

The thing is to me she wasn't fully to blame or the only one responsible. She actually placed the unidentifiable solution where it belonged. Yet she took the heat directly.

 

[sarahvma]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

There were a few episodes were Sara had a drinking problem. NOt to mention Brass talked to her about using the bottle and then using cough drops. Then she gets pulled over for being over the limit. I don't think she learned from her mistakes and just stopped...this sort of behavior was drug out over episodes.

Actually, it was only the two that you mentioned. Sara had to seek counsilling for it, and finish a program. I'd say that that's confronting and dealing with the problem.

Warrick's addiction to gambling...he seemed to get a handle on it...good for him...though you could see his inner struggles he dealt with when he was at a casino on a job assignment. I think this was good to show...because it showed how hard his problem once was.

Nick sleeping with a prostitute...did he sleep with her...I don't really remember if that was confirmed. Its been awhile since I've seen those episodes. Though...honestly I haven't really seen Nick with issues like the others. I could be just drawing a blank though.

There are flashbacks of him sleeping with her. And all you've proven is that the others have dealt with the problems and gotten past them.

Sara has always gotten too personal on cases dealing with domestic violence. She never learned from it. Hence in season 5 can't remember the episode she rebuked against Catherine wondering why she acted a certain way. Then Sara became unprofessional towards Cat...and got placed on suspension where grissom covered for her. Sara then confessed to what she witnessed with her parents.

And when have we seen her be unprofessional to Catherine since? When everyone else was being rude to her in front of Keppler, Sara told her that if she had something to say, she was going to do it in private. That's learning from a prior mistake.

I think she consulted a lawyer in good reason. She actually handled the money from her father professionally. Grissom would automatically think the worse...hence the reason she consulted a lawyer. You honestly can't help who your father is.

No, you can't. But again - point proven. Catherine clearly had misgivings about the money, knew it was wrong, but cashed it.

I'm not here to bash on Catherine. I like her. But acting as though she has zero faults or that she is somehow more experienced or mature than anyone else on the CSI team is bogus. She has violated the most laws, rules and regulations of any of them, perhaps even of any of them combined.

Catherine believes the rules should bend for her. Therefore, I don't think that if she were in a romance, she would be handling it better than Grissom and Sara.

And in truth, other than the phsyical fact that they are IN the relationship, what else have they done that's so terrible? Forgetting the fact that he's her boss, have we seen him giving her special priviliges? Have we seen her begging for the best case? Have we seen him bypassing others to give her a promotion? Have we seen him taking her side over everyone else?

 

[Desertwind]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I have to agree with Sarah on Cath breaking so many rules so mnay times.. and I admire HER, character at times.her perfect beautiful hair. her smooth perfect skin and her perfect figure. and her acting superb.... ~~prefaces that~~ but, she does hang out in BARS, in "BTK2" she was in a BAR, with Nick, her buddy, and woke up in a sleazy run-down motel, not knowing where or what had hapapend after encourging Nick to dance with another girl, and the time she found that scum-bag in his office with one of his "girls' doing his 'thing' was in a BAR , and when she got smacked in the face by that guy who walked her out to her car from a BAR [real life hubby] and because she wouldn't kiss him he sluggged her, or the car door.. and the time she said to Sara, after her 'breakup' with Hank "want to go have a beer" where would that be a BAR.. and fans rag on Sara's for dinking one time, it look's like Cath drinks as well ... and all these times, why isn't she home with her daughter Lindsay? and what did she do when she was a pole dancer before she became a CSI? lord knows? and she really needs to find the right person, and stop acting like she's still young.. which she's not!.......... and on that thought I like her with Warrick, they have strong chemistry.. and are in tune, and have a good camaraderie, she was so miffed when he got married, the look's on her face..hurt! but that might be over, his marriage, which the writers have chosen not to show lately!.. who knows.. my opinions.. views.. ideas.. no bashing!

 

[Waiting]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

As for the rape thing... *shrug* She chose to keep it private. She could've reported a rape, and she chose not to. Had she done that, she would've had the full sexual assault kit done in perfect legal view. In essence, Catherine told a young, impressionable female audience that if you're raped, you shouldn't call the cops and file a proper report because it's too "embarassing", and you should get co-workers to leave their jobs to cover it for you.

I thought that was a brillant episode. I think it showed how many women feel when they are drugged and can't remember the outcome of the night. I think TPTB showed the sensitivity of it...and basically displayed how a woman would feel and not file a report. I think TPTB took the road of probably the higher statistic used in a crime like that which is women don't think of it as a crime at first. They can't remember anything. Or somehow they feel responsible. That episode was deep. I felt for Cath...I really did. I don't think people would be so judgemental if they had an inkling of an idea of what she felt.

That, to me, isn't someone who would be more adept at handling a workplace romance.

Cath is far from perfect, but she has been know to play the politics of a job. I'm not saying in a bad way...just that she has handled things politically for Grissom. I just think if Cath was say dating Nick... if he meant the world to her...she'd make sure she couldn't screw it up! The same with Warrick, and if it was Greg she was dating...well she'd still do the same.

I have to agree with Sarah on Cath breaking so many rules so mnay times.. and I admire HER, character at times.. ~~prefaces that~~ but she does hang out in BARS .. in "BTK2" she was in a BAR, with Nick, her buddy, and woke up in a sleazy run-down motel, not knowing where or what had hapapend after encourging Nick to dance with another girl, and the time she found that scum-bag in his office with one of his "girls' doing his 'thing' was in a BAR , and when she got smacked in the face by that guy who walked her out to her car from a BAR [real life hubby] and because she wouldn't kiss him he sluggged her, or the car door.. and the time she said to Sara, after her 'breakup with Hank "want to go have a beer" where would that be a BAR.. and fans rag on Sara's for dinking one time, it look's like Cath drinks as well ... and all these times, why isn't she home with her daughter Lindsay? and what did she do when she was a pole dancer before she became a CSI? lord knows? and she really needs to find the right person, and stop acting like she's still young.. which she's not! and on that thought I like her with Warrick, they have strong chemistry.. and are in tune, and have a good camaraderie, she was so miffed when he got married, the look's on her face.. but that might be over, his marriage, which the writers have chosen not to show lately!.. who knows.. my opinions.. views.. ideas.. no bashing!

Desertwind...not bashing promise. How many Cath drinking episodes did you just bring up? I think 3...but let's just say we've seen her drink 6 times out of 7 seasons!!!! What is wrong with that? Even if she is a single mom...sorry that sort of stuff happens and its not wrong. But...I do think looking in a bar is the last place to look for a mate.

Also Catherine has never showed that she gets drunk and can't handle her alcohol and has to cover it with cough drops. I honestly don't think drinking it one of Cath's issues. But it was an issue that TPTB gave sara. I don't think Sara is this horrid person that is an alcoholic, but she did have an issue with it at one time. I also think TPTB had have choosen to focus less on Cath as a mother...so I'm not going to bash her as a mother figure.

And I guess Cath getting drugged is her fault? Her waking up in a sleazy motel is because she allowed herself to get drugged? See to me this isn't even worth an arguement. That was a crime that happened against Catherine AGAINST her will! This has nothing to do with her being a bad parent or a bad person.

I love the fact that cath was a stripper first. It shows the will and determination of how hard she fought to get where she was. Again tell me how her becoming a csi is bad?

I don't think she has acted young lately. She hasn't had a date since the beginning of season 5. Going out to see John Mayer with Nick...is not acting young.

I don't know what the writers have in mind regarding yobling...but I sort of don't see the chemistry between them anymore. The moment he got married...she sort of shut herself off to him in that sort of way. But, yeah she seemed upset that he got married and didn't tell her.

I'm not here to bash on Catherine. I like her. But acting as though she has zero faults or that she is somehow more experienced or mature than anyone else on the CSI team is bogus. She has violated the most laws, rules and regulations of any of them, perhaps even of any of them combined.

Do you read what I write? I never said she has NO faults. She's human or the character is portrayed as a human that has flaws. I don't think she is any better or less of a person on CSI. She has broken many laws. Yep she has. I still think she has a spin on politics better than Grissom and that is my point.

Catherine believes the rules should bend for her. Therefore, I don't think that if she were in a romance, she would be handling it better than Grissom and Sara.

When did catherine say she believes the rules should bend for her? :lol: Just messing, but no I don't think she thinks this. But I have already mention above why I think she would handle it better. Let me clarify though...I don't think Catherine would handle it better than Grissom because she is better and has no flaws...I just think she deals with politics better.

And in truth, other than the phsyical fact that they are IN the relationship, what else have they done that's so terrible? Forgetting the fact that he's her boss, have we seen him giving her special priviliges? Have we seen her begging for the best case? Have we seen him bypassing others to give her a promotion? Have we seen him taking her side over everyone else?

You mean besides the obvious strike your out for dating your subordinate. Who do you think does sara's reviews? Just curious? Even if Grissom was to give her an honest marking and raise...the thought of favoritism is still an issue and will be one.

You know I haven't seen anything with Grissom showing her favoritism. Though when Grissom was out...Sara did take it upon herself to go into Grissom's desk...STEAL his key...and open CATHERINE locker. If that isn't being dishonest...and going against anything regarding policies in the lab... Regardless if they thought Cath was doing something unethical they should have taken the matter to someone. THey should have confronted her with their findings.

 

[loki]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

It isn't. The argument was made that if Catherine were having a relationship with a co-worker, she would handle it more professionally. I disagree, for the reasons that I'm stating.

Mmmhmm, ok. I guess I missed where this argument began...

I personally think neither of them would handle it any better or worse. Catherine likes to bend rules, so does Sara, they just bend different ones. Catherine is more political than Sara, but I think she would hide it too, because she knows the consequences of it and she can't afford to lose her job for Lindsay's sake.

they're both flawed, everyone is, but who would want to watch a show where everyone was perfect?

 

[Desertwind]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

My question is why isn't she more concerned about raising her daughter, than hanging out in the wrong places with the wrong people, not a very good role model! and, on the 'cough drops' it was Sara's day off' she'd had a beer with breakfast, who hasn't done that? hello, and then got called in to work, she should have said 'NO" and not went in, but her dedication she did! and all these characters have flaws, and have screwed up all made wrong decisions and poor choices.. not just Sara!

 

[Waiting]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

My question is why isn't she more concerned about raising her daughter, than hanging out in the wrong places with the wrong people, not a very good role model! and, on the 'cough drops' it was Sara's day off' she'd had a beer with breakfast, who hasn't done that? hello, and then got called in to work, she should have said 'NO" and not went in, but her dedication she did! and all these characters have flaws, and have screwed up all made wrong decisions and poor choices.. not just Sara!

I'm not bashing Sara. I think Catherine is concerned for her daughter unfortunately we don't get to see this. TPTB don't include Lindsey in the storylines that much anymore. We haven't even got a continuation on how Cath and Linds are handling the kidnapping. To be honest...not alot has been shown lately with Catherine's personal life. All the characters do have flaws which makes them interesting. But...yeah you can guarantee if people start harping on my favorite character...I will argue like there is no tomorrow. But this is off subject this has turned into a debate on Catherine versus ships.

Every man we've seen her with has been an asshole. Sara has been able to sustain a longer relationship than Catherine while on the show. Actions, not words.

Really? Sara wasn't with Hank that long. I also believe that Cath was married for years...and Sara hasn't been married. Not that her marriage was a good one, but saying sara has been able to sustain a longer relationship than Catherine is arguable.

I personally don't blame her for that. She thought she was RAPED, of course she's going to be moody, how can you get mad at her for that?!

*wonders why bashing Catherine is necessary to argue GSR*

I guess it seems that Cath is a bad person for almost being raped. Just messing.

What about when she took a guy lusting over her, and ran with it? She told Sara to screw off when she was looking at the photos of the "naked" girl.

I don't think Catherine needs to be argued about, she isn't in the relationship.

However.. That Lady Heather.. *Grumbles*

Hahah...Catherine did nothing wrong here either. Sara was bitter that she didn't get the case. Also Grissom was all for Catherine taking the lead on this case. The thing is to me Sara took it personally and lost her professionalism in this case. I'm sure some will argue, but to me she made this more personal than what it should have been. It became a competition to her because she and Nick both wanted the case for the wrong reasons. Granted they did help out the case, but Sara was begruding with Catherine. Nick not so much.

Yeah she ordered people out of the room to look at private photos of Julie Walters...she did't do anything wrong. It was in fact her case...and I think she sort of related to Julie...and felt strongly about not having others looking at the pictures of her naked body. I think one of issues is Sara never respected the fact that Catherine is above her. Not above her as far as better, but Cath has more clout.



~~~~~~~~~~

You are right...Nick did get upset over Greg being attacked, and he did deck a guy!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CathStokes]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

okay talking about someones kid is a bad way to go down that road. Catherine *is* a good mother, you just don't get to see it as much, we haven't even heard on how their dealing with everything like waiting said. Now this part is pissing me off.

 

[loki]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

I think this entire conversation has gotten off track...

we can debate ships without bashing characters I think.

You are right...Nick did get upset over Greg being attacked, and he did deck a guy!!!!!!!!!!

Yessir he did. And the way he defended him on the stand in PM, I call that love.

 

[kinkapoodles]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

gsrLOVE said:
Well, as I recall, last time I brought in another ship I got a lowdown on how it's not that nice to bring in a ship that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.. *shrugs* There is certainly a ship I'd love to discuss, but, I'm afraid I might spoil someone/people.. So I'll wait.

This is the debate thread. You can bring up ANY ship that you want no matter what the current discussion is. This is NOT a GSR debate thread, however, that is the popular choice of conversation right now, which is fine too.

Just keep in mind that if you talk about anything that hasn't been aired yet to please use the spoiler boxes and if at all possible, put the episode name and/or title in the box.

 

[Waiting]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Yessir he did. And the way he defended him on the stand in PM, I call that love.

Hahah...well that he did. Nick is all about compassionate. I think he would be compassionate any relationship he was in, but I want catnip first. :lol: :lol:

 

[loki]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

Hahah...well that he did. Nick is all about compassionate. I think he would be compassionate any relationship he was in, but I want catnip first.

Hehehe, well, Nick and Cath have had some cute moments too, but for me Cath is for Warrick, sara for Gris, and Nick for Greg :lol: it works that way.

 

[Waiting]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

okay talking about someones kid is a bad way to go down that road. Catherine *is* a good mother, you just don't get to see it as much, we haven't even heard on how their dealing with everything like waiting said. Now this part is pissing me off.

I think cath is a good mother too. And I agree bashing Cath to defend GSR doesn't validate any argument.

Hehehe, well, Nick and Cath have had some cute moments too, but for me Cath is for Warrick, sara for Gris, and Nick for Greg it works that way.

No...no...I can't let you have Nick for Greg. You know Warrick got pretty heated up over Greg's attack too! :lol: Could you not feel the angst from Nick and Cath on redrum. Everytime I see CathStokes banner I feel it all over again. Ahem...sighs. The emotions that radiate anger that Nick displays in the scene just seems to go beyond trust being broken for him. He's got to realize Cath did what she had to do.

 

[edog]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

sarahvma said:

It isn't. The argument was made that if Catherine were having a relationship with a co-worker, she would handle it more professionally. I disagree, for the reasons that I'm stating.

As for the rape thing... *shrug* She chose to keep it private. She could've reported a rape, and she chose not to. Had she done that, she would've had the full sexual assault kit done in perfect legal view. In essence, Catherine told a young, impressionable female audience that if you're raped, you shouldn't call the cops and file a proper report because it's too "embarassing", and you should get co-workers to leave their jobs to cover it for you.

Um, Catherine is not a young, impressionable female. She's a grown woman with a job that allows her to have that choice.

File a report or keep it internal. And when I say "allows" I don't mean it wouldn't be frowned upon by her superiors. I'm just saying she had the choice to do it herself and get the results or file the report and eventually get the same results.

For a young woman without a job in law enforcement or specifically crime scene investigation, if she doesn't file a report, a rape kit isn't done and her rapist is never found. For Cath, either way, she got what she needed to get done: to learn she wasn't raped. Unfortunately, if she were to find out the opposite, she wouldn't have been able to catch the guy.

As for Cath in a relationship with others? I personally enjoy the Cath/Sara ship the most because you put two flawed women in a bowl and stir and you're bound to get something explosive. They have both made their share of mistakes, bad judgement calls and have both gotten terribly emotionally invested in several cases. Some of these while working together. (I'm recalling one where Cath sorta goes off the deep end on a Mom who purposely drowned her kid at an amusment park ride? Sara offers to take her out to eat, or something.) Anyway, I think they both understand each other in that regard (or they try to understand each other). Haha, however you wanna look at it.

 

[MissDee]

Re: The Great Ship Debate

My only problem with The Love is that there's too much canon where both guys have been shown to be decidedly hetero. I could buy that one guy is confused about his sexuality, or that one guy is bisexual, if there were canon proof of it... but two? I'm guessing the odds on that are a little high.

But hey, I've got an open mind, if anyone wants to try and convince me.