Stop picking on the poor guy

[John Walden]

By "poor guy", I mean Horatio. I am tired of seeing nearly everyone here picking on him for his recent actions. Think about all he has been through. A change in his character was bound to occur.


-His father killed his mother, and he was forced to kill his father
-He gets a girlfriend (Julia) and she suddenly disappears for no apparent reason
-His brother is supposedly killed
-His bomb squad mentor is killed
-His collegue and friend (Speedle) is shot in the line if duty in the middle of a drug heist (Speed obviously survived but it got to H nonetheless)
-He discovers that his brother had an out of wedlock child with an addict and tells Yelina that it is HIS child, not Raymond's
-Speed is shot in the line of duty again, but this time he dies
-He gets another girlfriend but she makes a very bad descision, so he breaks up with her
-He tells Yelina the truth about Raymond's daughter
-He discovers that Raymond is actually still alive
-Ray Jr is kidnapped
-Raymond (Sr and Jr), along with Yelina, leave the country
-He starts to feel guilt pangs about killing his father
-His nemesis (Walter Resden) kills his girlfriend
-He marries Marisol but she is shot on her wedding day
-Raymond dies for real IN HIS ARMS
-He makes the biggest moral challenge of his life when he kills Riaz
-Ray Jr almost goes into drug running
-Calleigh is run off the road into a canal
-Delko almost dies after being shot
-He discovers that he has a son, who is used against him by criminals
-Calleigh almost gets killed in the line of duty
-Julia returns and now has a bad streak. Then she gets H arrested for Riaz's murder, and let's not forget the "Miami justice" scene
-He returns only to find out that Calleigh has been kidnapped and that Julia and Kyle are living with a dangerous criminal
-He sees a man supposed to be protecting teenage girls preying on them instead


Now, don't tell me that YOU could have lived through that without changing. It's amazing that he hasn't commited suicide yet.

His sense of justice has changed, but it was for the better. I like his character from seasons 1-3, but I wanted to jump into the screen and strangle him every time I heard him say something like "Justice is not for you to dispense." Those were very selfish things for him to say, and I cringed every time I heard them or even something implying them. It made him look like a complete hypocrite. Really now, what IS justice? Isn't it about standing up for the innocent victims of crime? Justice IS vengeance, in one form or another. If it weren't, then why would criminals be sent to jail? That is torture in itself. In the end, I don't see any difference between beating up and fatally shooting criminals than sending them to jail for some time, if not for the rest of their lives.


I don't take much pleasure in ranting, but I just joined this board and I don't like seeing how most of you are so ignorant and judgemental when it comes to Horatio.

 

[Missing]

This is from the Horatio/DC thread:

I was knocking around online and I found this Fan Blog:

http://typh.livejournal.com/154519.html?ref=nf

I don't know, looked like a fun diversion about our one and only H.

Are you one in the same person by any chance?

I too think the same as you that the guy has been through alot and most of us couldn't even get past one of those things happening let alone all of them.

 

[Finch]

Welcome to the Miami Forum, John Walden. It's good to have you.

By the way I should say, we love a good debate here and Horatio seems to be a very hot topic for that recently. This issue had been brought up quite a few times in several different threads though it wasn't usually the instigating argument. So if I do find another thread that was started specifically for this issue, it may be merged. Just a heads up.

I don't take much pleasure in ranting, but I just joined this board and I don't like seeing how most of you are so ignorant and judgemental when it comes to Horatio.

I'm sorry you feel this way. However, it's a discussion board and with that comes criticism regarding some aspects of the show. We welcome positive feedback and negative feedback equally here--it just so happens many are passionate about the Horatio character and it's not always praise.

From what I've read recently, I don't believe there's an ignorance. Judgemental? Some, perhaps. We've all seen and recognized the same events that you have listed above and some feel he's turned into somewhat of a 'Dirty Harry' while others feel that he's become better. See: Missing's post and a lot of what has been said in the Horatio thread as of late. That's the beauty of an opinion--everyone's got one.

Now, don't tell me that YOU could have lived through that without changing. It's amazing that he hasn't commited suicide yet.

Heh, the lot of us believe he's changed. The opinions just differ on what kind of change transpired. Personally, I'm surprised he isn't more messed up either but in my eyes, his change isn't necessarily for the better.

I like his character from seasons 1-3, but I wanted to jump into the screen and strangle him every time I heard him say something like "Justice is not for you to dispense." Those were very selfish things for him to say, and I cringed every time I heard them or even something implying them. It made him look like a complete hypocrite. Really now, what IS justice? Isn't it about standing up for the innocent victims of crime? Justice IS vengeance, in one form or another. If it weren't, then why would criminals be sent to jail? That is torture in itself.

I respectfully disagree. Because lawfully, justice really isn't for the common man to dispense. That's why we have a justice system in place and throughout seasons 1-4, Horatio strongly believed in that system. If he could take justice into his own hands and beat up rapists, killers, thiefs etc. then there would be no point in becoming a CSI/police officer. He has a higher standard to uphold because of his position and that is to dispassionately follow the evidence (ideally) and aid the system in determining the fate of those accused, innocent or guilty.

In my opinion, lawful justice isn't vengeance. It's punishment and ideally fair punishment. Vengeance implies there's a personal element to it and in the court, it's supposed to be unbiased. Are there courts/officers/juries that are biased? Definitely. But like I emphasized before, the ideal environment in which people are sent to be tried should be equal for everyone whether they're a petty theif or a child molester. Sometimes the system works, sometimes it doesn't. When you take that possible unbiased element away -- beating up a rapist as an officer -- then that person never had a chance. What if that person was innocent? What if that person would have only been handed 6 productive, untortured months in prison? What if that person had house arrest or was aquitted? Alternatively, one could argue that someone isn't a threat to society and simply not arrest them/go after them. Then what if that person rapes and kills a 5 year old girl in the playground? If they had been tried for a past crime and gone to jail, that particular crime likely wouldn't have happened to that girl. (I know I'll probably get some flack for that last bit but it's a hypothetical 'what if' not 'this will happen and can happen' because as much as I would like to see the future, I can't.)

Besides, some prisons seem like torture, others don't. Some people leave prison with a better outlook on life while others get right back into the rut they were in before. Some people have a better experience behind bars than others. It all depends on the person (and the prison for that matter) and what they constitute as torture vs punishment. And in my eyes, torture is personal and punishment is an acceptable consequence. Sometimes punishment can go too far, which can turn into torture. Prison guards beating up a Skinhead everyday just because he's a Skinhead, for example. However, if that same person was flinging shit and disturbing the peace by getting everyone else riled up and started to assault the officers when they intervened, yeah he might get popped in the face and it's considered a punishment for unacceptable behaviour in a facility with established rules/regulations.

Feel free to disagree, but my point is, we have the system in place for a reason whether it works or not. A lot of people felt that when Horatio essentially took the law into his own hands, it was the wrong thing to do given his position and past view on justice. ("Justice isn't for you to dispense") Frankly, that is what some saw to be hypocritical. But in my opinion, did the guy deserve his ass handed to him? Yes. Was it understandable? Yes. Does that make it any more right just because it's Horatio and he's gone through a lot of personal drama? No.

Could I be judging him? Maybe, but he's not a real person.

Since some people agreed with how Horatio felt in the earlier seasons regarding justice, they might not agree with what he'd done recently.

And like you said:

I cringed every time I heard them or even something implying them.

You alternatively, may agree with what he'd done recently. Especially since you mentioned he's changed for the better.

It's all one's perrogative, really. Personally, I'm a huge fan of Horatio and I'm rooting for him all the way and while I support his actions most of the time, the guy needs to take a step back and look at himself in the mirror every now and then.

Again, feel free to disagree.

************

Okay, this was extensively discussed in the Jump the Shark thread if some would like to take a gander back there for reference. However, I suggested in that thread to start a new topic which was done here, so most (not all because it does crop up appropriately in the Spoiler/Episode threads) of the discussion regarding Horatio VS Justice should take place here as to avoid too many duplicates and possible head explosions. I think that sounds fair enough.

 

[John Walden]

I respectfully disagree. Because lawfully, justice really isn't for the common man to dispense. That's why we have a justice system in place and throughout seasons 1-4, Horatio strongly believed in that system. If he could take justice into his own hands and beat up rapists, killers, thiefs etc. then there would be no point in becoming a CSI/police officer. He has a higher standard to uphold because of his position and that is to dispassionately follow the evidence (ideally) and aid the system in determining the fate of those accused, innocent or guilty.

Thank you for understanding my views on this; I appreciate it. I think it all comes down to how you view the human species. While justice is certainly not for some to dispense (because they can take it too far, i.e. unfair punishment), I strongly believe the common man has a right to dispense justice. Just never take it too far. Horatio did take justice into his own hands several times, but in my opinion it was never at any point unfair. If Horatio actually kills a rapist/pedophile next season (as opposed to beating one up), then I will have a problem with the character because that is unfair punishment. But as of now, the character has exerted no unfair punishment - IMO.

 

[_Hush_]

Really now, what IS justice? Isn't it about standing up for the innocent victims of crime? Justice IS vengeance, in one form or another. If it weren't, then why would criminals be sent to jail?

Justice isn't vengeance, my friend. It's about making sure that it won't happen again. Criminals go to jail to learn the hard way that hurting, killing people etc. is wrong. That's why you can't take matter into your own hands, because usually, you're the one that got hurt.

The fact that people feel better knowing the attacker is in jail is a bonus. But it's not the main point of our justice system.

If Horatio actually kills a rapist/pedophile next season (as opposed to beating one up), then I will have a problem with the character because that is unfair punishment. But as of now, the character has exerted no unfair punishment - IMO.

The problem with that is, where do you draw the line? One might feel a slap on the wrist is enough, someone else may think 10 years of jailtime might suffice for the same crime. It's all personal judgement, so is H's judgment.

 

[John Walden]

Really now, what IS justice? Isn't it about standing up for the innocent victims of crime? Justice IS vengeance, in one form or another. If it weren't, then why would criminals be sent to jail?

Justice isn't vengeance, my friend. It's about making sure that it won't happen again. Criminals go to jail to learn the hard way that hurting, killing people etc. is wrong. That's why you can't take matter into your own hands, because usually, you're the one that got hurt.

Justice means different things for many people. There is no clear definition of it. My version of it is vengeance.

 

[Hrockz]

Horatio did take justice into his own hands several times, but in my opinion it was never at any point unfair. If Horatio actually kills a rapist/pedophile next season (as opposed to beating one up), then I will have a problem with the character because that is unfair punishment. But as of now, the character has exerted no unfair punishment - IMO.

I don't think it's vengence all the time for H, sometimes he's trying to protect his son. I kinda like it when and if H does beat someone up, I mean a suspect. We don't even know if he did beat up that pedophile. But wold it be so bad if he did. Mac roughs up people in NY. That's ok. But H does it and people make a big outcry.

IMO it'a all the more sexy when and if I see H get rough on a suspect.

Maybe H just have a problem with pedophiles in particular cos of his childhood. Or people who are abusive to kids cos he was abused by his Dad.

Justice isn't vengeance, my friend. It's about making sure that it won't happen again. Criminals go to jail to learn the hard way that hurting, killing people etc. is wrong. That's why you can't take matter into your own hands, because usually, you're the one that got hurt.

But I have to agree with that.

But I like this thread. People gota stop picking on H. He's been through alot, good cause for him to change. If he didn't it would be weird. He went through such a tough childhood, perhaps what happened in the past years was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[mjszud]

I agree, Hrocks , it just doesn't really bother me that he is becoming darker. I kinda like it. As "unhuman" as alot of people think he is...he really isn't!! He's a very emotional guy, he just expresses it differently than most. You can see it in every expression on his face, and in the way he talks to people. It get's to him & he vents his emotions through how he speaks.

We aren't even really aware yet, either, of how dark he will become. I think it just depends on who he becomes darker with, meaning if he starts to lash out at the team, then NO... I will NOT like that. As of now, we're just seeing him angrier with the "bad" people. Besides, I doubt TPTB will take him tooo far, at least I hope not. To me, he could be way worse.

Maybe this will give him a new perspective on things, I think we should see where TPTB are taking this "change" before it's looked at the most awful thing a character can go through. Suppose he comes to realize for himself that he's doing wrong & learns from it?!
You have to "fall", in order to be picked up again....see what I'm saying?

 

[Della]

Um, there are a lot of Horatio Caine adorers on here, and I would say that they significantly outnumber the ones, like me, who cannot stand what they have done with the character.

Also, I don’t understand why you think that if a real person was to admit they would be incapable of coping with what Horatio has gone through, then that should validate Horatio becoming a vigilante Cop. It feels like you're blurring the lines between the fictional and reality to me... (Just an opinion)

Horatio is a fictional character and in all honesty what the PTBs have thrown at him is unbelievable to the extreme. If you want to apply ‘reality’ to what Horatio has gone through, then yes, I too am very surprised he hasn’t topped himself. But where would CSI Miami be without Horatio Caine?

I would not complain if there had been sufficient foreshadowing to show that the Horatio Caine character would all of a sudden become a vigilante Cop, but there hasn’t been anything of the sort.

I have said this elsewhere, but I’ll say it again here.

In my opinion, I think they spent an entire Season (S5) having Horatio distance himself from his team to show that he was trying to come to terms with what had happened (Marisol, Ray and Ray jnr) and also with what he had done (cold bloodedly killing Riaz) and I thought that at the beginning of this Season we saw a Horatio Caine who was trying to connect with his team again and someone who had also regained what had motivated him in the first place when it came to doing the job that he did.

Then all of a sudden we have him brutally executing a defenceless, injured, unarmed member of the Mala Noche gang, beating the crap out of a suspect (and his words “you are resisting arrest” told the audience exactly what Horatio was about to do) and then acting out a witch hunt on someone else who hasn’t actually been proven to be guilty of anything.

Horatio is not acting on behalf of the badge he wears, he is behaving on such a level that totally contradicts all that he previously and most recently was shown to stand for and, instead, his own actions wholly validate the actions of the vigilante gangs he once fought against.

All in all, Horatio Caine is a criminal, simple as that. In their own minds all murderers can and do justify why they did what they did, and even if that justification proves to be justifiable, it still does not excuse them from being a murderer. It does not quash the fact that they murdered someone. The only true justification for murder is 'Self Defence', when the attacker's motivation is to kill/injure/maim you. That cannot be said for what Horatio has done.

So, in all honesty, you could throw any amount of justifications in my face as you think is warranted about why Horatio Caine has suddenly turned vigilante, but it will not change my mind about Horatio Caine being a murderer, a thug and a vigilante. He is no longer a Law abiding, upstanding citizen of Miami, he is now a criminal who uses and then disregards what the badge stands for whenever he feels like it and blatantly distorts what Miami justice is simply to satisfy his own personal need to exact revenge.

Lastly, CSI Miami used to be fun to watch. It had humour, excitement, a beautiful backdrop and characters you could root for. What we have now is something that is the complete opposite, its ‘evil twin’ if you like. The only time I laugh is when Horatio is spouting a line that at one time would have been humorous, but because of what he has recently done, now makes him look an utter pratt and a complete hypocrite.

They’ve also managed to taint the other characters as well by showing them to be complicit, at the very least, with his vigilante hunt of Ron Saris.

Whilst Horatio going ‘Dark’ might be others cups of tea, it’s not mine.

As far as I’m concerned Horatio Caine is now a cold-blooded killer and I personally don’t want to watch a program that seems to validate an LEO having the right to take the Law into his own hands and most importantly get away with it simply because it is shown that the criminals he is dealing with have touched him on a personal level.

If you want to class that as picking on Horatio Caine, John Walden, then so be it. I would like to think that it’s raising valid points on why CSI Miami is a program I no longer want to watch.

 

[John Walden]

I would like to think that it’s raising valid points on why CSI Miami is a program I no longer want to watch.

.....If you hate the show why are you here to begin with? You remind me of Caruso's stalker.

I don't mean to offend you, Della, but I really don't see the point of posting here if you hate the show and the allegedly "criminal" Caine.

 

[Wyoming]

I would like to think that it’s raising valid points on why CSI Miami is a program I no longer want to watch.

.....If you hate the show why are you here to begin with? You remind me of Caruso's stalker.

NO. We are not going down this road again. I know you weren't here for our past....fiasco, but please don't directly flame people. We are here to discuss the pros AND the cons of the show, just because one doesn't like the show doesn't mean they still can't talk about it. Hell, I don't like the show but I still talk about it (and watch it unfortunately, I like Cal and Eric too much).

Don't make me have to shut down this thread please. I thought this was going in a good direction, and I would like to see it live on. But if the trolling/flaming continues, it can't happen.

From the Board Rules:
Flames:
Obviously, you cannot insult other people. You may disagree with someone's opinion, but you may not attack the person themselves for posting that opinion. Don't respond to a flame with a flame. You cannot flame people and then claim to have been just defending yourself. If you have a complaint, notify a moderator rather than responding yourself.

Trolling:
Trolling is an internet term that means you're not posting to actually start or participate in a good discussion, but simply to anger another member or group of members. Posting in order to bait other users, moderators or administrators will not be tolerated.

If you have any questions/concerns, feel free to PM speed_cochrane or myself. Thank you.

 

[John Walden]

I apologize, Wyoming. It was not a flame nor insult, but just an observation. I know for a fact that Caruso's stalker has several different identities on the web, all across the web, and I was simply curious as to how one can hate a show so much yet post about it like this.

K, let's get this thread back on the road now.......

 

[Wyoming]

Well then if it's going to be directed towards another poster specifically, please refrain from saying it out loud.

 

[John Walden]

I will certainly do that in the future. Sorry. I'm just new to this whole concept.

 

[Della]

I would like to think that it’s raising valid points on why CSI Miami is a program I no longer want to watch.

.....If you hate the show why are you here to begin with? You remind me of Caruso's stalker.

I don't mean to offend you, Della, but I really don't see the point of posting here if you hate the show and the allegedly "criminal" Caine.

I can honestly put hand on heart and say that I’m not Caruso’s Stalker.

Believe it or not, John Walden, but when I first started entering conversations on here I adored the Horatio Caine character and also CSI Miami, and I was not that shy in letting people know about it, however, the downside of that is that I’m also not that shy in letting people know my displeasure in something either.

To be honest, the reason I still post in threads like this one, though yes, I also sometimes wonder why I bother, is because the idealist in me hopes that there might be the most smidgeonist of possibilities that a person or persons who have some sway in CSI Miami might read this board and see that, from at least one person’s POV, not everything is all well and dandy with what they have done. I also have this tiniest bit of hope that maybe what they have done with the Horatio character can be explained to me in such a way that I'm left thinking that maybe it's not as bad as I think it is.

I was also brought up to believe that if you are not happy with something then say so, because without saying so then there is no hope of anything changing.

~ ~
Anyhooo, to get this thread back on track, I wanted to address your claim of Horatio being an ‘alleged’ criminal, John Walden. Could you explain to me the difference between what Horatio has done, the execution of the Gang member, the beating up of a Paedophile and the witch hunt he’s instigating against Ron Saris, to what a member of a vigilante gang might do, to what an every day Joe might do against someone whom he has a problem with, to a thug on the street?

What's the difference between what motivated Horatio to do what he did, that would make him innocent of being a criminal in your eyes, to what might motivate these other types of people to do what they do, that makes them criminals in your eyes? (I hope that makes sense)

Also, Did Horatio break the law when he beat up the Paedophile and when he executed the gang member?

...And this that's in the spoiler box...

Spoiler: What DC said

And, given what DC said about Horatio's motivation behind his hunt for Ron Saris and what Horatio intends to do, would he be breaking the Law by killing Ron Saris? (I would have put this in a spoiler box, but it's not working *shrug* - Sorry...)

edited...fixed the spoiler box for ya

edited to add: Thank you. I had a look at how you did that and I figured what I did wrong in the first palce *facepalms herself with embarrassment* *blush*