John Walden
Dead on Arrival
Horatio is certainly breaking the law, but the law does not always equal what is right.
Stop picking on the poor guy
- Thread starter John Walden
- Start date
Della
Police Officer
...I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again...
It is not the Law that is faulty but some small minority within the Law who by whatever lapse decisions they decide upon, make it seem as though it is the Law that is failing.
As said before it was Horatio Caine who failed any girl who might have come into contact with the Paedophile, it was not the Law. The Law is there to prevent rape, the act of personal vengeance, bigotry, violence, racism, murder, and so on and so on being committed again by one or more criminals.
The Law is not in place to justify any one of us from murdering, raping, causing GBH and so on, just because we have good intentions in our hearts.
The Laws are impersonal, as in they are not there soley to exact a personal revenge on someone who has comitted a crime. There may be victims and said victims family and friends who view it that way, and perhaps yourself as well, John Walden, but that would be theirs and your own personal views of what the Law will provide for them and/or you.
However, that is not the basis of why there are Laws with which we should abide by. The Laws are there to protect the innocent, and most especially those who have been incarcerated for something they are not guilty of committing.
The gathering of evidence, which the Law stipulates as a must, is there so that there will be no mistaking someone's guilt, that the one they have is the one who committed a crime and not some innocent who had been in the wrong place at the wrong time - or even someone who might have been an innocent bystander who had wanted to help. That stipulation is also there so that the criminal does not get off on a technicality because it cannot be proven whether the LEO(s) had been motivated by something personal or not.
When it comes to the Law there is no right or wrong, it is simply the Law, and the breaking of those Laws, such as executing someone, causing GBH and committing pre-meditated murder, makes the person committing these offences a Criminal.
What would you be saying if a member of the Mala Noche gang justified his murdering, for instance, Horatio Caine, by claiming that 'the Law was not always right'? I'm assuming you wouldn't be too happy about that, and yet, that's exactly the mentality you're expecting me to use to exonerate Horatio Caine from what he has done.
In my opinion, there is no "A Law for one and a Law for another', there is simply 'the Law' and no amount of good intentions is a justifiable reason for letting one go and then incarcerating another because what he/she did wasn't deemed to be goodly enough.
In my opinion, that kind of mentality is like justifying cop killings, rapes, murders and so on and so on, because I'm guessing that someone somewhere will think that any one of those things was a good thing, even if it's only the criminal him/herself.
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Wyoming
Head of the Graveyard Shift
I totally agree. It seems that in CSI Miami, Horatio does get away with a lot. And I may be off in a tangent, I didn't read everything in the previous posts, but the mention of how law isn't always right made me think of how much Horatio evades the law. Now this is going off of rusty information, I haven't had a chance to watch CSI Miami in a wihle.
The first thing that comes to mind is Horatio in Brazil. He's killed like, fifteen people over there, yet they always seem to be letting him go. What about the people he killed? It was unfortunate because he was pretty much forced into having to kill all of those men in S6, in that case it was either shoot or be shot. But when he went after the guy who killed Marisol, that's when I noticed the prominent change in him.
Yeah, it probably really hurt that Horatio had his wife taken away from him so quickly, and Eric had reason to be angry too, but I think it was completely unlike Horatio, and it changed him. I do not like that change at all. I didn't like Horatio to begin with, and the superhero complex that they gave him after S4 and 5 makes me dislike the character considerably.
So is what Horatio did for revenge lawful? Absolutely not. He should have been arrested for it and put in jail, cop or not, but that wouldn't help the show now, would it? So I understand why it didn't happen, but I don't think the revenge storyline in the S5 premere was a good move at all. I think that's where they went wrong with Horatio's character.
But anyway, JMHO.
Della
Police Officer
I think this is the thing that annoys me most of all about CSI Miami, because, while CSI Miami is just a TV programme, and I agree that having Horatio arrested probably wouldn’t help the show, (not that not having him arrested is helping the show either, as far as I’m concerned), I really don’t think the severely overused idiom of “it’s just a TV show” should be used to excuse the PTBs from showing a lack of responsibility when it comes to their storylines, especially when the lead is involved and that that lead is primarily an LEO.
All in all, I think whoever is thinking up these scenarios for the Horatio Caine character really needs to be stopped, because not only are they, on a lesser level, damaging the character beyond repair but, most importantly, they are also sending out an insidious message which condones Executions, GBH (Grievous Bodily Harm) and Pre-Meditated Murder. Even scarier is that it also seems to be conveying the message that the Law is only in place for those who abide by it and that it doesn’t apply at all when it comes to apprehending a criminal.
While I would assume that the ‘majority’ who watch programs like CSI Miami are astute enough to be aware of the fact that it is just a TV program, there are those who are influenced by what they see, and even if it’s just one person who takes from CSI Miami the message that it is okay to exact a personal revenge against someone (and they kill/maim/injure someone because of that belief), then that is, in my opinion, one person too many.
Hmm, maybe I’m over-analysing this, but then again, it’s not as though the Media, when reporting on a murder, has never cited a TV Program/Movie/Video Game as being the primary influence for it.
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John Walden
Dead on Arrival
Well, that's your opinion. I still have mine. =)
I actually disliked Horatio in earlier seasons. Not the character as a whole, but certain aspects of him. In early season one, he was way too snarky. He seemed too sensitive and sure of himself. He started to get better in Camp Fear because he grew a bit calmer, but then he blew it again in Forced Entry when he said his most ridiculous, uncaring, ignorant quote to date: "Justice is not for you to dispense." Upon hearing that, I seriously wanted to jump into the middle of the interrogation and strangle H to death with a barbed wire. God, I HATE that quote! I've said this before and I'll say it again - people have the right to dispense justice, but the ones who do have that right are the ones who know not to take it too far (like murdering a robber, because the robber did not kill anybody). I agreed with H killing Riaz, because Riaz had killed H's wife and brother. As H so aptly put it in Ambush, "Mr Riaz got what was coming to him." I also agreed with the execution of the Mala Noche gang member (please, Della, do not respond to this again because you've said it before a bazillion times already).
Now, don't get me wrong here - killing murderers is not ALWAYS ok. You just have to kill them for the right reasons. If I were a cop, and somebody killed a murderer over money, then I would throw him in jail, because his action clearly said he would likely do it again, only this time to an innocent person. If that somebody did a revenge killing, I would be forced to charge him with murder, of course, but I would do everything in my power to get him released. See what i mean?
The only H I have ever disliked was the early season one Horatio. I wasn't too fond of Robo H in seasons 4 and 5 either, but I never disliked that Horatio. The only reason I don't like Robo H too much is not out of anger at him, but out if sadness and hopelessness - all I could think of was "Why did he change so damn drastically?" He rarely had any emotional reaction to anything. Watch him and Yelina in Blood Brothers. Then watch him and Yelina in Burned. Pure zombie right there.
My favorite earlier episodes are ones when H showed defiance to law and authority, attacking the two principles with passion and not showing TOO much faith in the system, therefore taking the law into his own hands (not as much to an extent as he did in recent episodes, but he did so nonetheless simply by battling the government). Blood Brothers and Double Cap are perfect examples.
I actually disliked Horatio in earlier seasons. Not the character as a whole, but certain aspects of him. In early season one, he was way too snarky. He seemed too sensitive and sure of himself. He started to get better in Camp Fear because he grew a bit calmer, but then he blew it again in Forced Entry when he said his most ridiculous, uncaring, ignorant quote to date: "Justice is not for you to dispense." Upon hearing that, I seriously wanted to jump into the middle of the interrogation and strangle H to death with a barbed wire. God, I HATE that quote! I've said this before and I'll say it again - people have the right to dispense justice, but the ones who do have that right are the ones who know not to take it too far (like murdering a robber, because the robber did not kill anybody). I agreed with H killing Riaz, because Riaz had killed H's wife and brother. As H so aptly put it in Ambush, "Mr Riaz got what was coming to him." I also agreed with the execution of the Mala Noche gang member (please, Della, do not respond to this again because you've said it before a bazillion times already).
Now, don't get me wrong here - killing murderers is not ALWAYS ok. You just have to kill them for the right reasons. If I were a cop, and somebody killed a murderer over money, then I would throw him in jail, because his action clearly said he would likely do it again, only this time to an innocent person. If that somebody did a revenge killing, I would be forced to charge him with murder, of course, but I would do everything in my power to get him released. See what i mean?
The only H I have ever disliked was the early season one Horatio. I wasn't too fond of Robo H in seasons 4 and 5 either, but I never disliked that Horatio. The only reason I don't like Robo H too much is not out of anger at him, but out if sadness and hopelessness - all I could think of was "Why did he change so damn drastically?" He rarely had any emotional reaction to anything. Watch him and Yelina in Blood Brothers. Then watch him and Yelina in Burned. Pure zombie right there.
My favorite earlier episodes are ones when H showed defiance to law and authority, attacking the two principles with passion and not showing TOO much faith in the system, therefore taking the law into his own hands (not as much to an extent as he did in recent episodes, but he did so nonetheless simply by battling the government). Blood Brothers and Double Cap are perfect examples.
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Della
Police Officer
Sexy to me is seeing a man show compassion and understanding, so, for me, Horatio Caine was never more sexier than in the 1st three Seasons.
I remember an episode where a man who’s wife had been kidnapped was holding another man at gunpoint to get him to give him the ransom money to pay for her release – and Horatio pleading with that man to put the gun down. I don’t think Horatio today would show as much compassion or understanding, and that is just sad.
Horatio Caine was right, Justice is not there for just anyone to dispense, it’s not even there for Horatio Caine to dispense.
If you don’t want me to respond to something, John Walden, then, to be honest, I suggest the best way to go about it would be to not bring up the subject in the first place. Still, perhaps I have laboured my POV concerning the execution of the gang member to the point of exhaustion, so all I will say is, it was utterly wrong to show a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) executing the gang member, beating up a Paedophile and planning this witch hunt against Ron Saris, but most importantly showing this LEO getting away with these criminal activities – and for the same reasons in several other threads on this board.
The only time a killing can be justified is when it is doen in self-defence, other than that Killing/Murdering, no matter who it is being murdered, is never okay, and particularly when your job is a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO).
There is no killing them for the right reasons. There is no justification for executing someone, for beating the crap out of a suspect or for instigating a witch hunt, particularly when you are an LEO.
I do indeed understand what you are saying, John Walden. Thankfully you started this paragraph with “If I were a cop”. In all honesty, I think the last thing someone should be or consider to be is an LEO/Cop if they believe that the Law is only there to support the personal thoughts and actions of the LEO/Cop.
...Here we go again, repeating myself...
An LEO/Cop is duty bound to uphold the Law, to protect the innocent from muggers, robbers, murderers, and so on. He is not the Law, an LEO represents it. So to have an LEO executing someone, beating the crap out of a suspect and instigating a witch hunt is actually demonstrating to the every day Joe that ‘according to the law’, it is perfectly fine to do this, when in actuality according to the Law, it is a ‘Criminal Offence’ to execute someone, to beat someone up and to instigate a witch hunt, especially when the motivation of that witch hunt is to kill them. In other words they would be breaking the law and should expect the proper punishment to be disposed upon them.
...Whereas my favourite episodes are the ones where we can clearly see how Horatio has been affected by what has been and is going on (the Stewart Otis episodes) and yet he still demonstrates “Justice is not yours to dispense”.
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I have followed the discussions for weeks now. Finally I want to express my take on the things.
John Walden has some good points there, althouth I understand Della too.
For me the Justice system is there to protect society. If it is likely that criminals would act criminally again, they should be put away (for some time).
IMO police officers and other LEOs are likewise there to protect people, to make sure, that criminals can't do further harm. Of course especially LEOs should obey the law, but sadly it often doesn't work that way. It is not right to beat up an (contained) criminal. but if that beating is acted out of pure anger, I can understand why, but it is still not right. Now if the criminal can't be arrested anymore because of that beating, the trial, punishment (suspension, anger management) the police officer would be facing of course than should be held in public. letting go that criminal would do more harm than good. The beating was not right, but it shouldn't hinder arrest of that criminal.
Killing for revenge is not right, but it is differnet to other crimes. In that cases ist is not likely that that person may kill again. He already got his revenge. Normally he shouldn't be a danger for society anymore. Unless he got something like joy by killing at all. Then maybe he will kill again, just to feel it again. Hopefully he will be stopped before he can end a life, cause otherwise the system would have failed (again).
That said I would say something about the (in-)famous acts of Hoartio:
First the "execution" of the gangmember
Fore me that killing wasn't an execution, altough I can see why people may see it that way. The guy was lying on the floor, bleeding and dying. But he wasn't unarmed. If H would have given that guy the chance, it would have the very last thing he would have done in his life. A machette is a very deadly weapon, it can chop of limbs easily. Second the guy was dying. very little chance to survive. He would have been in serios pain until his death. No help in sight. The one gangmember that was able to flee, wouldn't come back. The guy who brouht H back to Rio? Well I think he would rather watched that Mala die than helping him.
H could have simply walk away and let that guy bled to death. Is that more heroic? Or watch the guy die (whith a sadistic grin oh his face)
H shot him and ended it. They all tried to kill/murder him (7 against 1) IMO the scene was not too unrealistic. Of course H was a bit lucky. But all in all it was skill on one side and dumbness on the other. Fireing a MP from far distance and wondering why none of the bullets are hitting the spot, is dumb IMO.
Ever watched the behind the scenes video for that scene. I loughed my a** off. We shouldn't take that scene too seriously. TPTB obvisouly doesn't want us to. Yes H killed at point blank range, but he didn't kill out of anger. H could, because of all the adrenalin flowing through his veins. Actually I'm a little bit surprised that he din't empty the remaining bullets into that guy. No he fired one well placed shot. He certainly didn't get pleasure out of it. As he didn't when killing Riaz. In S4 finale it was damn close. But he didn't shoot. He left it to justice to take care of him. well Riaz was taken to Brazil and got free. That bad enough, Riaz killed Ray Sr and tried to get on Ray Jr, only to get back on H. After that he tried to kill Eric but that went wrong, as we all certainly remember.
What is the point in all this? In fact wie can't be sure what would have happened if H didn't shoot the gang member. I for once can just supose that he would have died after minutes, hours.
That takes me to the second point
The "beating" of the pedophile
We didn't saw it, right? What we saw was a man that brought alcohol and was talking about that the girl is "much older" than she looks. On the other side a police officer that sends the girl out of the room and starts taking of his watch, badge. Its gonna get ugly soon, right? Well that pedo thought that too. He was scared sh**less and that was maybe what H wanted.
IMO H didn't beat that pedo. Perhaps he used a bit more force than necessary wehn he was detaining and cuffing him. But he didn't beat him. He didn't need to get his hands dirty. That would do the cellmates back at the police station for him.
What H surely did was to force the resistance, so he can arrest the pedo. H bought some time while that guy can't hunt, harm, kill innocent kids and the CSI team has more time to find evidence for a judge to put the pedo away for sure. (and protect society from him)
I see why it could be a problem to show actions (made by the "hero") like that on TV. But there must be a reason why CSIM is aired so late at night. Of course (some) people can be influenced by it. But people that are influenced by TV shows are maybe influenced by nearly everything.
The "problem" is not only with CSIM but with a lot of the top20 shows (and some of them are airing much earlier) NCIS is an nice example and it airs 2 hours earlier. The lead chara Gibbs killed an unarmed man in revenge and wasn't charged for it (not yet maybe) and a lot of other action similar to (or more "problematic" than) Hs. for the record: I love both charas.
If you picking on CSIM because of it, then you have to pick on all the others too.
I think H actions will ultimately get back at him. He will be killed or get imprisoned and get killed there. He is too much a "tragic hero" to meet another end (in the show). Thats something that makes CSIM differnt to the other CSIs (at least for me). There is something like a big picture that spans over the (supposely) 9 seasons.
I hope ist understandable what I'm trying to say. English is not my native so its a little hard for me
John Walden has some good points there, althouth I understand Della too.
For me the Justice system is there to protect society. If it is likely that criminals would act criminally again, they should be put away (for some time).
IMO police officers and other LEOs are likewise there to protect people, to make sure, that criminals can't do further harm. Of course especially LEOs should obey the law, but sadly it often doesn't work that way. It is not right to beat up an (contained) criminal. but if that beating is acted out of pure anger, I can understand why, but it is still not right. Now if the criminal can't be arrested anymore because of that beating, the trial, punishment (suspension, anger management) the police officer would be facing of course than should be held in public. letting go that criminal would do more harm than good. The beating was not right, but it shouldn't hinder arrest of that criminal.
Killing for revenge is not right, but it is differnet to other crimes. In that cases ist is not likely that that person may kill again. He already got his revenge. Normally he shouldn't be a danger for society anymore. Unless he got something like joy by killing at all. Then maybe he will kill again, just to feel it again. Hopefully he will be stopped before he can end a life, cause otherwise the system would have failed (again).
That said I would say something about the (in-)famous acts of Hoartio:
First the "execution" of the gangmember
Fore me that killing wasn't an execution, altough I can see why people may see it that way. The guy was lying on the floor, bleeding and dying. But he wasn't unarmed. If H would have given that guy the chance, it would have the very last thing he would have done in his life. A machette is a very deadly weapon, it can chop of limbs easily. Second the guy was dying. very little chance to survive. He would have been in serios pain until his death. No help in sight. The one gangmember that was able to flee, wouldn't come back. The guy who brouht H back to Rio? Well I think he would rather watched that Mala die than helping him.
H could have simply walk away and let that guy bled to death. Is that more heroic? Or watch the guy die (whith a sadistic grin oh his face)
H shot him and ended it. They all tried to kill/murder him (7 against 1) IMO the scene was not too unrealistic. Of course H was a bit lucky. But all in all it was skill on one side and dumbness on the other. Fireing a MP from far distance and wondering why none of the bullets are hitting the spot, is dumb IMO.
Ever watched the behind the scenes video for that scene. I loughed my a** off. We shouldn't take that scene too seriously. TPTB obvisouly doesn't want us to. Yes H killed at point blank range, but he didn't kill out of anger. H could, because of all the adrenalin flowing through his veins. Actually I'm a little bit surprised that he din't empty the remaining bullets into that guy. No he fired one well placed shot. He certainly didn't get pleasure out of it. As he didn't when killing Riaz. In S4 finale it was damn close. But he didn't shoot. He left it to justice to take care of him. well Riaz was taken to Brazil and got free. That bad enough, Riaz killed Ray Sr and tried to get on Ray Jr, only to get back on H. After that he tried to kill Eric but that went wrong, as we all certainly remember.
What is the point in all this? In fact wie can't be sure what would have happened if H didn't shoot the gang member. I for once can just supose that he would have died after minutes, hours.
That takes me to the second point
The "beating" of the pedophile
We didn't saw it, right? What we saw was a man that brought alcohol and was talking about that the girl is "much older" than she looks. On the other side a police officer that sends the girl out of the room and starts taking of his watch, badge. Its gonna get ugly soon, right? Well that pedo thought that too. He was scared sh**less and that was maybe what H wanted.
IMO H didn't beat that pedo. Perhaps he used a bit more force than necessary wehn he was detaining and cuffing him. But he didn't beat him. He didn't need to get his hands dirty. That would do the cellmates back at the police station for him.
What H surely did was to force the resistance, so he can arrest the pedo. H bought some time while that guy can't hunt, harm, kill innocent kids and the CSI team has more time to find evidence for a judge to put the pedo away for sure. (and protect society from him)
I see why it could be a problem to show actions (made by the "hero") like that on TV. But there must be a reason why CSIM is aired so late at night. Of course (some) people can be influenced by it. But people that are influenced by TV shows are maybe influenced by nearly everything.
The "problem" is not only with CSIM but with a lot of the top20 shows (and some of them are airing much earlier) NCIS is an nice example and it airs 2 hours earlier. The lead chara Gibbs killed an unarmed man in revenge and wasn't charged for it (not yet maybe) and a lot of other action similar to (or more "problematic" than) Hs. for the record: I love both charas.
If you picking on CSIM because of it, then you have to pick on all the others too.
I think H actions will ultimately get back at him. He will be killed or get imprisoned and get killed there. He is too much a "tragic hero" to meet another end (in the show). Thats something that makes CSIM differnt to the other CSIs (at least for me). There is something like a big picture that spans over the (supposely) 9 seasons.
I hope ist understandable what I'm trying to say. English is not my native so its a little hard for me
Della
Police Officer
Hello theonemcp
I’m not sure if you’ve posted on here before and/or you’ve just joined, so on the off-chance, welcome Btw your English is great, especially considering it is not your native tongue.
I also think that the families and friends of the murderer should always be taken into consideration as well. These are innocents, they are not guilty of anything, and yet, if an LEO were to murder their loved one because he/she thinks they deserve it, ultimately the family and friends are paying the price for something they never did.
All in all, in my opinion, if any one of us were given the right to administer our own forms of punishment on those who we think deserve it, then I think it will eventually make murderers of us all, and possibly serial killers at that, because there wouldn’t be anything in place to stop us – and whether we like it or not, the Human Race needs governing. We need to have something in place which draws the line of what is acceptable and what is not.
In my opinion, Murderers, Rapists, Paedophiles and so on are a minority of the Human Race, and I think one of the reasons why they are a minority is because we have such Laws in place which forbids the acts. Without those Laws and we would be able to whatever the hell we liked and not fear any punishment.
In all honesty, I abhor violence and I would like to think that Laws or not I would never resort to any form of violent act against another Human being, but I can never be 100% sure because I don’t live in a society where it is lawless – and when it all boils down to it, those who do murder, maim and injure they are human beings, so who’s to say that if it was a lawless society that I wouldn’t resort to such behaviour?
The reason I see it as an execution is because the person was utterly defenceless. He was injured, lying face down and unarmed.
In my opinion, whether it was shown outwardly or not, Horatio’s action of executing that gang member told me that it was cold-blooded and that it also served some other purpose than administering justice, as he saw it. In all honesty, if you were to watch it again, Horatio also had plenty of opportunity to kill the gang member with the machete before the guys on the bikes arrived, but he didn’t. Why not? There was an armed man in front of him brandishing a lethal weapon and yet he didn’t kill him. Why?
If we were to read about someone who executed someone else because their ‘hero’ Horatio Caine did it and got away with it, and the PTBs turned around and said, “Oh come on, it was just a bit of fun” – that would not only be a pretty lame excuse, but it would also show just how little respect was given towards the ‘possible’ repercussions of showing a scene where the executing of someone is nothing but okay – and that p*sses me off.
I too am talking about impressionable people, and yes, they may find other things which will satisfy them, however, does CSI Miami really need to add to the vast outlets out there who seem to shows as little respect as CSI Miami has recently shown?
In my opinion, the badge that he wears is a symbol of what the Law stands for, what I suppose he believes in, much like, perhaps, what a crucifix is to a Christian. Taking it off doesn’t mean he’s showing respect for the badge at all. All it means is that he’s not wearing it as he breaks the Law.
What Horatio is doing is in the here and now, which suggests to me, given what we have already been shown of the character, is that he has regressed as a character. He is allowing his actions to be dominated by his criminal intentions. What he might have thought about doing in the past, he is now acting them out, and he is getting away with it, which is criminal. (Ha! ha!)
Given that they have already shown Calleigh to be complicit in Horatio’s witch hunt of Ron Saris, and possibly Ryan too, if it’s deemed they’ll show Horatio being arrested or forced to leave CSI, they’ll have to ensure the same happens to Calleigh for being an accessory to it.
Can you honestly see, I assume, the two most popular characters on the show having to leave? I can’t.
I’m not sure if you’ve posted on here before and/or you’ve just joined, so on the off-chance, welcome
Btw your English is great, especially considering it is not your native tongue.I like to believe that it’s not as often in comparison to those LEOs who abide by the law, but then again, who knows for sure
I think the thing that keeps being forgotten or ignored is the fact that Horatio is first and foremost an LEO and therefore should behave within the Law and what the badge demands of him as an LEO. If he acts outside of the badge, as he did in both the execution of the gang member, he was in Brazil, and also when he beat up the Paedophile, he took off the badge, he should still expect the full punishment of doing so, but that has never been shown.
In my opinion, killing for revenge is no different than killing for pleasure, because there is no guarantee that the person who killed out of revenge didn’t get some enjoyment out of it. In fact I'd say that more often than not they probably owuld, if only it is the atisfaction of believing that the person they murdered got their jsut desserts.
I also think that the families and friends of the murderer should always be taken into consideration as well. These are innocents, they are not guilty of anything, and yet, if an LEO were to murder their loved one because he/she thinks they deserve it, ultimately the family and friends are paying the price for something they never did.
All in all, in my opinion, if any one of us were given the right to administer our own forms of punishment on those who we think deserve it, then I think it will eventually make murderers of us all, and possibly serial killers at that, because there wouldn’t be anything in place to stop us – and whether we like it or not, the Human Race needs governing. We need to have something in place which draws the line of what is acceptable and what is not.
In my opinion, Murderers, Rapists, Paedophiles and so on are a minority of the Human Race, and I think one of the reasons why they are a minority is because we have such Laws in place which forbids the acts. Without those Laws and we would be able to whatever the hell we liked and not fear any punishment.
In all honesty, I abhor violence and I would like to think that Laws or not I would never resort to any form of violent act against another Human being, but I can never be 100% sure because I don’t live in a society where it is lawless – and when it all boils down to it, those who do murder, maim and injure they are human beings, so who’s to say that if it was a lawless society that I wouldn’t resort to such behaviour?
Horatio had effectively disarmed him because he stomped on the machete as the person reached for it.
The reason I see it as an execution is because the person was utterly defenceless. He was injured, lying face down and unarmed.
I agree that the machete is not a pleasant weapon (as if there is a pleasant weapon anyway - chuckle), and that it can inflict awful injuries on someone, however, it was no longer in the gang member’s possession, the gang member was also injured and considering he was face down on the ground, he wouldn’t have been able to wield it anyway.
I honestly don’t think it can be said with any certainty at all that the gang member was dying. He’d been shot, that is true, but dying? I’m not entirely sure about that. But even so, what stopped Horatio from calling the medics in Brazil and informing them of an injured/possibly dying man and then walking away? Or popping back to the President’s(?) home and informing him that there was an injured/dying man just outside his back gate?
In my opinion, whether it was shown outwardly or not, Horatio’s action of executing that gang member told me that it was cold-blooded and that it also served some other purpose than administering justice, as he saw it. In all honesty, if you were to watch it again, Horatio also had plenty of opportunity to kill the gang member with the machete before the guys on the bikes arrived, but he didn’t. Why not? There was an armed man in front of him brandishing a lethal weapon and yet he didn’t kill him. Why?
In all honesty, the worse thing the guy with the machete had done was bad-mouth Horatio.
Yes, I have seen the ‘behind the scenes of it’ and, yes, it is comical, however, regardless of whether the PTBs wanted us to take it seriously or not, there are those who will derive whatever they want out of that scene and some of it might not be the pleasant, ridiculing belly laugh that I did get, right up until the final scene with the guy with the machete.Ever watched the behind the scenes video for that scene. I laughed my a** off. We shouldn't take that scene too seriously. TPTB obvisouly doesn't want us to. Yes H killed at point blank range, but he didn't kill out of anger. H could, because of all the adrenalin flowing through his veins. Actually I'm a little bit surprised that he din't empty the remaining bullets into that guy. No he fired one well placed shot. He certainly didn't get pleasure out of it. As he didn't when killing Riaz. In S4 finale it was damn close. But he didn't shoot. He left it to justice to take care of him. well Riaz was taken to Brazil and got free. That bad enough, Riaz killed Ray Sr and tried to get on Ray Jr, only to get back on H. After that he tried to kill Eric but that went wrong, as we all certainly remember.
If we were to read about someone who executed someone else because their ‘hero’ Horatio Caine did it and got away with it, and the PTBs turned around and said, “Oh come on, it was just a bit of fun” – that would not only be a pretty lame excuse, but it would also show just how little respect was given towards the ‘possible’ repercussions of showing a scene where the executing of someone is nothing but okay – and that p*sses me off.
I too am talking about impressionable people, and yes, they may find other things which will satisfy them, however, does CSI Miami really need to add to the vast outlets out there who seem to shows as little respect as CSI Miami has recently shown?
I’m afraid that all indications did tell the audience that Horatio was just about to beat up the Paedophile. The most telling was his line “You are resisting arrest”. The most telling action was him taking off his badge, though why Horatio thought that would exonerate him is beyond me. Just because he took off his badge, that does not mean he is showing any respect for it at all.
In my opinion, the badge that he wears is a symbol of what the Law stands for, what I suppose he believes in, much like, perhaps, what a crucifix is to a Christian. Taking it off doesn’t mean he’s showing respect for the badge at all. All it means is that he’s not wearing it as he breaks the Law.
You’re right, there is no difference between what Gibbs did to what Horatio did, however, what Gibbs did is in his past, and we have seen him grow from that point on. What he did then is not who he is now and we have seen plenty of evidence to support that.
What Horatio is doing is in the here and now, which suggests to me, given what we have already been shown of the character, is that he has regressed as a character. He is allowing his actions to be dominated by his criminal intentions. What he might have thought about doing in the past, he is now acting them out, and he is getting away with it, which is criminal. (Ha! ha!)
The thing is, because of what the PTBs have done with the Horatio character, I really don't care whether he eventually pays for the crimes he’s committed or not, though I honestly don’t see anything of the sort happening in the future.
Given that they have already shown Calleigh to be complicit in Horatio’s witch hunt of Ron Saris, and possibly Ryan too, if it’s deemed they’ll show Horatio being arrested or forced to leave CSI, they’ll have to ensure the same happens to Calleigh for being an accessory to it.
Can you honestly see, I assume, the two most popular characters on the show having to leave? I can’t.
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Welcome, theonemcp.
That's how I saw it as well.
I wouldn't say there was very little chance he'd survive. It looks like Horatio only got him in the foot, which was why he was stumbling. If it had been a femur shot, there would be much more blood. (Then again, I'm trying to add reason to CSI:Miami) I'd think that after Horatio stepped on the machete, the gang member was no longer a threat. He could have just picked it up and walked away, leaving the man--assuming he was in no danger of death. Alternatively, he could have shown compassion and found a way to call for an ambulance. (Yeah, I know, not a lot of phones in the middle of the jungle but that's not my point.)There were many options but he decided to take a kill shot.
I'd say leaving the guy there is fair enough considering he was wielding a machete at H. It's not like that one measly guy was a huge problem, so what would be the point in killing him? What he represented? Maybe. But it seems like a waste of lead to me--he wasn't worth it in my opinion. It may have put a damper on his situation but the Mala Noche consist of more than 5 guys so his issues weren't completely solved. It just didn't make sense to me. Sure, the guy could have gotten up, hobbled over to Horatio through the bushes and punched him out, stealing back the machete and hacking him into pieces but I'd think the survival instinct would set in after being injured and maybe he'd flight rather than fight. And it's all just conjecture on my part.
Besides, aren't police officers authorized to take a kill shot ONLY when a suspect poses an immediate threat to the life of said officer? Horatio took appropriate action shooting him the first time, disarming him. And I say disarming him because the machete was no longer in his hands. So again, my point being, I thought the threat was resolved at that point. :shrug:
Some see it differently, which is completely fine.
Agreed with theonemcp; It's pretty difficult to assume what could have happened/would have happened in both situations. ('All In' & 'To Kill a Predator) It was very smart on the writers' part to throw these things out at us because it does raise multiple moral questions. Was it right? Was it wrong? I'm glad they utilized Horatio for that because the question becomes that much harder to answer.
That being said, it's still just a television show at the end of the day.
Della said:
That's how I saw it as well.
theonemcp said:
I wouldn't say there was very little chance he'd survive. It looks like Horatio only got him in the foot, which was why he was stumbling. If it had been a femur shot, there would be much more blood. (Then again, I'm trying to add reason to CSI:Miami) I'd think that after Horatio stepped on the machete, the gang member was no longer a threat. He could have just picked it up and walked away, leaving the man--assuming he was in no danger of death. Alternatively, he could have shown compassion and found a way to call for an ambulance. (Yeah, I know, not a lot of phones in the middle of the jungle but that's not my point.)There were many options but he decided to take a kill shot.
I'd say leaving the guy there is fair enough considering he was wielding a machete at H. It's not like that one measly guy was a huge problem, so what would be the point in killing him? What he represented? Maybe. But it seems like a waste of lead to me--he wasn't worth it in my opinion. It may have put a damper on his situation but the Mala Noche consist of more than 5 guys so his issues weren't completely solved. It just didn't make sense to me. Sure, the guy could have gotten up, hobbled over to Horatio through the bushes and punched him out, stealing back the machete and hacking him into pieces but I'd think the survival instinct would set in after being injured and maybe he'd flight rather than fight. And it's all just conjecture on my part.
Besides, aren't police officers authorized to take a kill shot ONLY when a suspect poses an immediate threat to the life of said officer? Horatio took appropriate action shooting him the first time, disarming him. And I say disarming him because the machete was no longer in his hands. So again, my point being, I thought the threat was resolved at that point. :shrug:
Some see it differently, which is completely fine.
Agreed with theonemcp; It's pretty difficult to assume what could have happened/would have happened in both situations. ('All In' & 'To Kill a Predator) It was very smart on the writers' part to throw these things out at us because it does raise multiple moral questions. Was it right? Was it wrong? I'm glad they utilized Horatio for that because the question becomes that much harder to answer.
That being said, it's still just a television show at the end of the day.
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HnStetlerfan
Pathologist
Do you know something that most of us don't? Where did you get this information about a "big picture" and 9 seasons? And can't H just end up having to go to Psych services or something? I don't want some kind of Tragic Ending.
Every time someone suggests this possiblility it really does bring tears to my eyes. Note to TPTB: I will not buy the rest of the DVD's if it starts seeming like something bad is going to happen to H or Rick or really any of the others because I like all the characters. Please no more killing off of characters. Real Life is bad enough. So please just don't do it. I hope ist understandable what I'm trying to say. English is not my native so its a little hard for me
You're doing fine.
That leaves the question what reprecussions could there be. How many people know that H is there and what happend down there? The lack of evidence doesn't make it right, of course. and I never said it was right. Well H could turn himself in.
But that would never happen. (or maybe at the end)
And I never said that the taking off the badge was an excuse. IF he beat up that pedo than it was wrong. But I still think that he didn't. He didn't need to. As I mentioned in my previous post. The only thing H had to do, was putting him into a cell with other "nice" guys ...
What me "bothered" most was that he took of his watch. Thats the very indication that it is getting phisical. And it worked well ...
You wanted to play by the rules, than lets stay that way. Gibbs commited murder. It doesn't matter how much time passed or that he maybe changed (which he IMO didn't. he just knows better how to cover his a**. And as an LEO he better should :devil: ). He murdered. Hence he is guilty. That will never change, unless the laws are changed. He is guilty of murder. Period.
I never said that was H is doing is always right (by the means of law). The only thing I ask for is, that people should not just get on H for it. You want to play fair, then play fair yourself.
Yeah I know thats an CSI board but I hope you get what I mean. We could talk about Mac, but I stopped watching NY after S2 and I only got to see one epi since, and that one ticked me off again, so I better keep my mouth shut
AnnD said it somewhere. audocommentary or interview. she planned something like 3 acts with 3 seasons each. So we have now end of act 2 and beginning of 3. Finale of S3 and S6 the ending scenes where both shot on an airflied. (no pun intended, really :lol
And both times it had something to do with Hs "family" (Yelina, RaySr/Jr and Julia, Kyle).I personally wouldn't be so unhappy about the fact that the "end" is possibly already be planned. I always loved shows where it felt like a plan existed. :thumbsup:
The world is not perfect, people are not perfect, the law is not perfect. I for once don't want to see perfect people on TV either. In fact I never could stand them. There are simply not "real". Well H isn't real either, but I prefer him to many others
Well thats just me and I'm not perfect either :lol:
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HnStetlerfan
Pathologist
AnnD said it somewhere. audocommentary or interview. she planned something like 3 acts with 3 seasons each. So we have now end of act 2 and beginning of 3. Finale of S3 and S6 the ending scenes where both shot on an airflied. (no pun intended, really :lol
I personally wouldn't be so unhappy about the fact that the "end" is possibly already be planned. I always loved shows where it felt like a plan existed. :thumbsup:
OK, as long as no death of the characters happens. If that audiocommentary is on seasons 3 and 4 DVD's I can play it as soon as I get another DVR machine because I picked 3 and 4 up when I was shopping for air conditioning about a week or so ago. Can't play them on this old computer. Man, I can barely play youtube on this thing.
The world is not perfect, people are not perfect, the law is not perfect. I for once don't want to see perfect people on TV either. In fact I never could stand them. There are simply not "real". Well H isn't real either, but I prefer him to many others
Well thats just me and I'm not perfect either :lol:
Well, besides the fact that the way H has changed and become more unpredictable and dangerous-acting turns me on, I remember reading in a book I had about writing, that the protagonist of a story is supposed to change in some noticable way during the story or it, the story, just isn't very well-written.
Hi all
I'm new to this forum, and joined because I love CSI, all of them, but my favourite is Miami and I luv Horatio, well should I say David Caruso.
I'm really a little concerned about some of the flack on some of the messages. It's fiction, they are not reall people, just characters.
Ok everyone has opinions how things are changed or moved on, and over time characters do change, like we all do in REAL life.
Please stop being so negative about all of this, I want to be able to "talk" to fellow and share with positive feedback, not negative.
Sorry to say, but if this is going to be the content of future forums I'm not going to join in any more.
It makes me oh so sad that with all the negative things there are in the world that it comes out in what should be a friendly forum.
Please guys and gals out there, be kind to one another.
Hope I haven't offended anyone by saying what I feel.
Love and peace to all
Christina
I'm new to this forum, and joined because I love CSI, all of them, but my favourite is Miami and I luv Horatio, well should I say David Caruso.
I'm really a little concerned about some of the flack on some of the messages. It's fiction, they are not reall people, just characters.
Ok everyone has opinions how things are changed or moved on, and over time characters do change, like we all do in REAL life.
Please stop being so negative about all of this, I want to be able to "talk" to fellow and share with positive feedback, not negative.
Sorry to say, but if this is going to be the content of future forums I'm not going to join in any more.
It makes me oh so sad that with all the negative things there are in the world that it comes out in what should be a friendly forum.
Please guys and gals out there, be kind to one another.
Hope I haven't offended anyone by saying what I feel.
Love and peace to all
Christina
I'm sorry you feel this way and it would be a shame to lose you. However, like I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the Miami Forum is open to both positive and negative feedback alike.
If you don't like a certain topic, you may prefer to simply not read it. There are some threads in other forums that I don't like and I choose not to read them. Causes less of a headache that way.
Not saying this is something you should/shouldn't do, but it's a suggestion. And 90% of the time, this forum is a very pleasant place to be and this thread alone does not reflect the attitudes of everyone here. I'm privileged to be moderating and participating in a place so accomodating and genuinely welcoming of others and their ideas.
Hopefully you'll stick around with us.
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ladyd10
Police Officer
You know, I used to adore the Horatio character in the early seasons. He was intrinsically flawed, but still admirable and someone that was the epitome of righteous justice. He caught the bad guys and let the justice system sort it out in a jury of the criminal's peers. He was very human and very likable, and in some cases, like floundering around his feelings for Yelina and getting all school-boy nervous around her when it came to personal things, absolutely lovable. He wanted to be with her in the worst way but couldn't get past the concept of her being his brother's wife. How heroic and honorable.
I loved the fact that he knew his team intimately from what guy/girl they were seeing to things about their families. It made him "dad" or the "big brother" in their CSI family. He was dear and endearing; a moral compass not unlike Gil Grissom or Mac Taylor.
Yes, the character has endured horrific things and yes, a darkness can emerge, but the writers, in my opinion, have taken it to an unreal extreme. Look at a few of the other characters. I'll "pick on" Calleigh because she's had it, probably the roughest, not being Horatio. She's:
-grown up in an emotionally dysfunctional home with an alcoholic father and a mother who wasn't one. (Calleigh to Alexx in "My Nanny" "She was more of a friend than a mother." and, when asked about having a nanny since Cal grew up in a rather well off family, "That would have been a voice of reason".)
-pattern long established of pulling her father out of bars and making sure he got home safely (don't think that's emotional rot gut? Talk to someone who's been there)
-has a pattern of picking the wrong guy to get involved with: Jake in the Academy in New Orleans (we don't know what he did but it was enough to cause her pain many years later) and Detective John Hagen, who later killed himself in front of her after a severe bout of mental illness.
-having a boyfriend find and drag her dad out of a bar and then bring him to PD for her to take home.
-having a dear and trusted friend, rather an older brother sort of person in her life, get killed in the line of duty for something he'd already been called on....by her.
-have her dad be involved in what could have been a drunken vehicular homicide, but wasn't Homicide, not drunken, because he was) and have it not only be known around the Lab and have to endure all of that, but have it investigated by a newbie, someone she doesn't know doesn't know how to talk to yet.
-John Hagen, after being out with a "bad back" (department euphimism for can't pass the psych exam) come back into her life and wanting to restart things.
-Said Hagen throwing a severe damper on her possible relationship with Peter Elliot by unreasonable fantasies of Hagen and her getting back together.
-Hagen committing suicide in front of her at work causing her to leave the Firearms Lab.
-Watching Eric deal witrh his sister's cancer and seeing everything that it caused him to do, including buying weed for her, which was illegal, and then getting caught. She lied for him to help him, putting her own career in danger.
-Trying to hold the Lab together during a Federal investigation while they tried to find Officer Jessup's murderer. If anyone remembers, Jessup first worked with Calleigh in the case of a young illegal woman trying to get out of a bad and abusive relationship. I can't rememeber the name of the episode.
-Being the de facto and uncertain as to the duration Lt for the Lab while H and Eric were away in an unsanctioned and relatively illegal trip to Rio.
- nearly killed after being run off the road and into a canal.
-having a very painful and emotionally damaging ex resurface into her life in "Going Under".
-Nearly being killed in "Going, Going, Gone" when a suspect shot her in the chest. She escaped death because she wore a vest.
-Watching and praying as Eric, an extremely dear friend and someone that she "trusted with every fiber of her being" (Whacked season 3), fight for his life after being shot in the head.
-Being Eric's watchdog and protector after he returns to work while H is distracted elsewhere.
-Her first protege, Ryan, falling deeper and deeper into gambling addiction which finally loses him his job. How can you not feel like you've failed?
-Starting to fall for Eric and fighting it.
-Eric starts to fall for her and isn't fighting it.
-The thing with Jake begins and damages her relationship with Eric.
-The whole thing with Cooper and Speed's memory.
-Nearly being run over for no reason at all except the bad guys thought you might have seen them kill someone.
-Finding out your guy is lying like a rug and may have an alcohol issue....like dad.
-Getting exploited on the internet and it compromising a case. The person that compromised you used to be a colleague and friend. The same person that stole Speed's identity.
-Because of Cooper's website "Solve a Crime With Calleigh", she gets abducted and, in order to save her own life, which is precarious at best, she's forced to cover crime scene after crime scene until, finally, her carefully placed clues lead the team to her. -She is deeply enough shaken to allow Eric in far enough to take her home.
-Fallout after her abduction:
--she is placed on administrative review and is pulled off a case where she is sitting on the murder weapon.
--she covers for Eric about the "cheat sheet" he wrote for himself that she found.
--is put through all her profieciencies again to re-certify her for duty. She took this career bullet in the chest for Eric.
--had her Lab literally catch on fire from an old bullet that she acknowledged that she should have been more vigilant about. It would have been comical if it didn't come on top of everything else in the last couple of episodes.
My point, here is this: Horatio isn't the only severely damaged character. Yes, Calleigh's unshakable loyalty to H has made her make very unwise choices, but loyalty can do that to you. It's the same for the rest of the team. Ryan has his addiction, Eric his shooting and memory loss and the fallout that we're just beginning to learn about, Alexx's family which is now in crisis, and Natalia's abusive past. Eric got a bit broody and defensive and Calleigh got angry. Ryan was defensive and Natalia was on the defeated side. Nobody went as dark and inhuman as Horatio has been written lately. While dark can be intriguing, I think the writers have overdone it with him. As Eric said in "Simple Man" "Everyone's got a sad story".
My point here is this: Horatio isn't the only damaged character coming in and has had horrific things happen to him. The writers have taken it too far and need to rein themselves back and restore some amount of equillibrium to Horatio's character. I don't like him anymore. He's creepy and wierd and someone I wouldn't let my kids (if I had any) around. I want the old, humanly-flawed Horatio back!
I loved the fact that he knew his team intimately from what guy/girl they were seeing to things about their families. It made him "dad" or the "big brother" in their CSI family. He was dear and endearing; a moral compass not unlike Gil Grissom or Mac Taylor.
Yes, the character has endured horrific things and yes, a darkness can emerge, but the writers, in my opinion, have taken it to an unreal extreme. Look at a few of the other characters. I'll "pick on" Calleigh because she's had it, probably the roughest, not being Horatio. She's:
-grown up in an emotionally dysfunctional home with an alcoholic father and a mother who wasn't one. (Calleigh to Alexx in "My Nanny" "She was more of a friend than a mother." and, when asked about having a nanny since Cal grew up in a rather well off family, "That would have been a voice of reason".)
-pattern long established of pulling her father out of bars and making sure he got home safely (don't think that's emotional rot gut? Talk to someone who's been there)
-has a pattern of picking the wrong guy to get involved with: Jake in the Academy in New Orleans (we don't know what he did but it was enough to cause her pain many years later) and Detective John Hagen, who later killed himself in front of her after a severe bout of mental illness.
-having a boyfriend find and drag her dad out of a bar and then bring him to PD for her to take home.
-having a dear and trusted friend, rather an older brother sort of person in her life, get killed in the line of duty for something he'd already been called on....by her.
-have her dad be involved in what could have been a drunken vehicular homicide, but wasn't Homicide, not drunken, because he was) and have it not only be known around the Lab and have to endure all of that, but have it investigated by a newbie, someone she doesn't know doesn't know how to talk to yet.
-John Hagen, after being out with a "bad back" (department euphimism for can't pass the psych exam) come back into her life and wanting to restart things.
-Said Hagen throwing a severe damper on her possible relationship with Peter Elliot by unreasonable fantasies of Hagen and her getting back together.
-Hagen committing suicide in front of her at work causing her to leave the Firearms Lab.
-Watching Eric deal witrh his sister's cancer and seeing everything that it caused him to do, including buying weed for her, which was illegal, and then getting caught. She lied for him to help him, putting her own career in danger.
-Trying to hold the Lab together during a Federal investigation while they tried to find Officer Jessup's murderer. If anyone remembers, Jessup first worked with Calleigh in the case of a young illegal woman trying to get out of a bad and abusive relationship. I can't rememeber the name of the episode.
-Being the de facto and uncertain as to the duration Lt for the Lab while H and Eric were away in an unsanctioned and relatively illegal trip to Rio.
- nearly killed after being run off the road and into a canal.
-having a very painful and emotionally damaging ex resurface into her life in "Going Under".
-Nearly being killed in "Going, Going, Gone" when a suspect shot her in the chest. She escaped death because she wore a vest.
-Watching and praying as Eric, an extremely dear friend and someone that she "trusted with every fiber of her being" (Whacked season 3), fight for his life after being shot in the head.
-Being Eric's watchdog and protector after he returns to work while H is distracted elsewhere.
-Her first protege, Ryan, falling deeper and deeper into gambling addiction which finally loses him his job. How can you not feel like you've failed?
-Starting to fall for Eric and fighting it.
-Eric starts to fall for her and isn't fighting it.
-The thing with Jake begins and damages her relationship with Eric.
-The whole thing with Cooper and Speed's memory.
-Nearly being run over for no reason at all except the bad guys thought you might have seen them kill someone.
-Finding out your guy is lying like a rug and may have an alcohol issue....like dad.
-Getting exploited on the internet and it compromising a case. The person that compromised you used to be a colleague and friend. The same person that stole Speed's identity.
-Because of Cooper's website "Solve a Crime With Calleigh", she gets abducted and, in order to save her own life, which is precarious at best, she's forced to cover crime scene after crime scene until, finally, her carefully placed clues lead the team to her. -She is deeply enough shaken to allow Eric in far enough to take her home.
-Fallout after her abduction:
--she is placed on administrative review and is pulled off a case where she is sitting on the murder weapon.
--she covers for Eric about the "cheat sheet" he wrote for himself that she found.
--is put through all her profieciencies again to re-certify her for duty. She took this career bullet in the chest for Eric.
--had her Lab literally catch on fire from an old bullet that she acknowledged that she should have been more vigilant about. It would have been comical if it didn't come on top of everything else in the last couple of episodes.
My point, here is this: Horatio isn't the only severely damaged character. Yes, Calleigh's unshakable loyalty to H has made her make very unwise choices, but loyalty can do that to you. It's the same for the rest of the team. Ryan has his addiction, Eric his shooting and memory loss and the fallout that we're just beginning to learn about, Alexx's family which is now in crisis, and Natalia's abusive past. Eric got a bit broody and defensive and Calleigh got angry. Ryan was defensive and Natalia was on the defeated side. Nobody went as dark and inhuman as Horatio has been written lately. While dark can be intriguing, I think the writers have overdone it with him. As Eric said in "Simple Man" "Everyone's got a sad story".
My point here is this: Horatio isn't the only damaged character coming in and has had horrific things happen to him. The writers have taken it too far and need to rein themselves back and restore some amount of equillibrium to Horatio's character. I don't like him anymore. He's creepy and wierd and someone I wouldn't let my kids (if I had any) around. I want the old, humanly-flawed Horatio back!