Season 12 Spoiler Lab Discussion

[jafox]

Because honestly, I think if the rest of the team had taken a leaf out of Sara and Greg's book, and just accepted the evidence for what it was, if Brass hadn't been SO unlike himself and contaminate the scene to cover up the facts as they were... the outcome really would not have been all that different. The team would have slept better for being so honest, at the end of the day, nobody really judges Ray for killing the guy that's been going around killing everybody else... again, since he escaped from prison and the cops have done a crap job of finding him (yet Ray's done such a good job of that) - there is no way this was cold-blooded murder. cuffs or no cuffs, I guess what I'm trying to say is, why did Brass and Nick and the team in general make such a fuss about these cuffs, they're not the end of the world!!

Well, as the saying goes, 'the devil's in the details'.

Yes, it was murder, as there are many legal definitions. And, yes, the cuff's were important, because that detail makes it somewhat premeditated, even though it could be argued Ray was 'temporarily insane' and Haskell deserved it. I doubt that there is a jury who would convict him, especially if his lawyer brings up the violent gene defense. Maybe Heather will be called as a witness :lol:.

If Grissom were there (yes, I'm playing that card), knowing how detail oriented he is, this case would not have been closed the way it was. He doesn't play politics, he searches for the truth regardless of the consequences. But, of course, that was the 'old' Grissom. The 'new' version might be more influenced by emotion, and loyalty. And, I suppose I'm projecting my hope that this scenario will bring Grissom back for an appearance, like Warrick's death did for Sara.

How this plays out all depends on who's coming back as all the characters are affected, whether it's personally or professionally. Brass has the most to lose professionally, but if PG signs on for another season or two, then Ray will not divulge everything he knows. Tptb have portrayed Ray as a hero all along, so I don't think that will change. Then when PG decides to leave, his part in this scenario will probably play a role.

Knowing CSI, I suspect this will be handled only briefly in the premiere, then the show will move on. Like Warrick's death, it will be brought up on the occasion that it may be pertinent to the other characters' (or actors') actions. I'm so tired of the Haskell and Ray storyline; all I care to know is the cast for next season. Like Sara said (paraphrasing), I just want to know what I'm dealing with, then I'll deal with it.

speedystokesgirl: I'm guessing you don't want to slap Nick on the wrist.

 

[Robinjn]

The more I think about the whole cuff thing, the more I think Brass really boogered things for Ray by picking it up and disposing of it versus helping him. Ray could have told his story and probably gotten off with self-defense much easier. "Yeah, I had him restrained with the cuff. But then he really pissed me off when he told me that he raped Gloria. I cut the cuff off so I could beat the shit out of him, and things kinda went downhill (downstairs?!) from there." Haskell did have a gun and could have picked it up any time and used it. There was no one there that could corroborate Ray's story--Gloria was pretty much out of it. He could've said ANYTHING and they would have to take him at his word.

 

[babydoll]

Yea I agree with you there Robin, I also definitely agree with jtd94's theory that it's only gonna be briefly mentioned in the premiere and hopefully everyone will move on.

I too became sick of the Ray/Haskell drama a really long time ago, I tried to like it, I really did, but the writing was poor and the story was dragged out longer than Steph and Toadie's staged relationship in Neighbours, I am *SO* relieved LF is leaving, and it's not his fault, but it's still the best news for this show, and I am looking forward to some old characters talking about something new, possibly with someone new (just don't let them be the centre piece of the entire show), with a bit of Squeegel in the mix. Season 12 could be good - but knowing the writers, they'll probably screw it up.

 

[Kasey47]

The more I think about the whole cuff thing, the more I think Brass really boogered things for Ray by picking it up and disposing of it versus helping him. Ray could have told his story and probably gotten off with self-defense much easier. "Yeah, I had him restrained with the cuff. But then he really pissed me off when he told me that he raped Gloria. I cut the cuff off so I could beat the shit out of him, and things kinda went downhill (downstairs?!) from there." Haskell did have a gun and could have picked it up any time and used it. There was no one there that could corroborate Ray's story--Gloria was pretty much out of it. He could've said ANYTHING and they would have to take him at his word.

Yeah but if Brass didn't make Ray look more guilty, then there would be nothing really for the team to get in trouble for or have to question their loyalty to the team and so on... I really think it was good drama (and I realize I may stand alone on this) to work this out the way it did. Rising above the battle between Nate and Ray, I'm trying to focus on what the rest of the team feels about this. And not only the repercussion that could come from IA but the internal ones within each of them and within the team itself...

 

[Ceindreadh]

And on this show Brass couldn't even be a CSI since they all carry guns.

IIRC, I thought it was a matter of personal choice whether CSIs carried guns. Didn't Greg make a point of *not* carrying one?

 

[sharp52092]

And on this show Brass couldn't even be a CSI since they all carry guns.

IIRC, I thought it was a matter of personal choice whether CSIs carried guns. Didn't Greg make a point of *not* carrying one?

Yes he did in No Humans Involved but the writers this past season forgot about that cause in Targets of Obcession, Father of the Bride, and In a Dark Dark House he carried one, no explanation why though, I'm hopin' it will be addressed in season 12

Though I won't count on it

 

[Robinjn]

The more I think about the whole cuff thing, the more I think Brass really boogered things for Ray by picking it up and disposing of it versus helping him. Ray could have told his story and probably gotten off with self-defense much easier. "Yeah, I had him restrained with the cuff. But then he really pissed me off when he told me that he raped Gloria. I cut the cuff off so I could beat the shit out of him, and things kinda went downhill (downstairs?!) from there." Haskell did have a gun and could have picked it up any time and used it. There was no one there that could corroborate Ray's story--Gloria was pretty much out of it. He could've said ANYTHING and they would have to take him at his word.

Yeah but if Brass didn't make Ray look more guilty, then there would be nothing really for the team to get in trouble for or have to question their loyalty to the team and so on... I really think it was good drama (and I realize I may stand alone on this) to work this out the way it did. Rising above the battle between Nate and Ray, I'm trying to focus on what the rest of the team feels about this. And not only the repercussion that could come from IA but the internal ones within each of them and within the team itself...

Exactly! Just like Ray being "the better man" and just walking away from Nate's goading isn't very dramatic either. That may be what Super Amazin' Ray might do, but not Ray the fallible human being.

It's really too bad that LF isn't coming back. I was really looking forward to seeing Ray's interactions with each of the team after everything hit IA's fan and how they work together in the aftermath--now THAT would have been good drama. Now it seems all we'll get is the team dealing with the aftermath and not Ray. Now there is no choice but to wrap up the storyline once and for all.

 

[Desertwind]

So many theories, ideas, views, beliefs and strong opinions. Bottom line the writers give the stars the dialogue, and they just play out the parts given them. And they all did an incredible job. They all backed up Ray because they all felt his pain and how battered and hounded and repulsive Haskell was. He did everything in his power to ignore and just move on, but this guy was relentless, and pushed him to the limits. They were all deeply involved in this saga from the beginning and were bound and determined to help Ray get this over with, and he did. He actually won this one, even in his death, it proved that Langston did come to the violent rage that Nate had always predicted. It will be intriguing to see how they handle this ending in the beginning of S/12. And how the rest of the team will act and interact, and deal wth this. As far as it going on to long, fans would probably have wondered "I wonder what ever happened to that serial killer Nate Haskell":wtf: NO one is completely ever happy and contented with any episode, they [TPTB] had to complete this story line, and they did!!!

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

The writers give the characters dialogue, but it still reflects on the character. The main reason people disliked Ray so much is because of the way he was written. Yes, that was TPTB's fault and not LF's, but it still translates into a lot of people thought Ray was not a good character. I don't get implying that the writing is something seperate from the character as if the character would be a good one if not for the writing. The writing IS the character so if the writing doesn't go over on a regular basis the character will fall flat despite how good the acting is.

 

[babydoll]

Yes. This more or less sums up the dislike of Ray's character for me.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for LF, I do genuinely believe he is a fantastic actor, and Ray not being liked is not LF's fault, it is the writers fault.

They wrote into a show that has been successful with the same cast for 9 years, on the replacement of the leading character and much loved supervisor... Laurence Fishburne to play a rookie CSI. They quickly realised their mistake, and then their next biggest mistake was trying to correct this one, by unrealistically promoting Ray and giving him more knowledge and authority than he should have. Super!Ray, the rookie CSI in his 50s who is multi-lingual, a trained ballet-dancer, member of the mob, psychologist, gymnast and stunt-man... the character was unrealistically perfect and that's partly why I hated him. On top of that, he was nice to everybody and appeared to have no fault - every time Ray's life was at risk I was cheering his death on!! I was gutted that the man always bounced back on his feet, so typically Super!Ray, I became so bored so soon.

It's not that I miss Grissom, (although I do), but this was a desperate and poor attempt at replacing a thoroughly thought our character with a celebrity name and after making a mistake, unrealistically trying to correct it - the whole 2 years of writing for this character was disastrous and I'm glad it's over!

 

[Desertwind]

Of course fans speak their opinions, and everyone has one. I thought, and many others too, that Langston did a fantastic job, and was the perfect replacement for Grissom. He was so multi-layered with his low-key gentle demeanor, to irritated and insuborninate to full on rage. No one could have played this role better than he did. And he was had a medical degree, was a pathologist, an author and a surgeon. He didn't just walk in off the street. And Grissom was the one who offered him the job. He was super, and knowledgable, what's what was so astonishing about his character. He brought his expertise to the lab, and the team showed him things he didn't know. He soaked it all up and was a quick study. The thing that was so enchanting is how the team bonded with him and embraced him as one of their own. The writers were on top of that from the onset. I think this was one of LF's greatest career moves. He was electryfing and intriguing and interesting, and so exciting I couldn't wait till the next episode to see what was next, every week. I can't imagine how anybody will ever to as good of a job than he did. Time will tell on this one

 

[myfuturecsi]

When do they start shooting again?

 

[vegaslights]

When do they start shooting again?

The week of the 18th.

 

[Robinjn]

The writers give the characters dialogue, but it still reflects on the character. The main reason people disliked Ray so much is because of the way he was written. Yes, that was TPTB's fault and not LF's, but it still translates into a lot of people thought Ray was not a good character. I don't get implying that the writing is something seperate from the character as if the character would be a good one if not for the writing. The writing IS the character so if the writing doesn't go over on a regular basis the character will fall flat despite how good the acting is.

The gist I get as to the main reason people dislike Ray so much was not only the way he was written, but that so much was written for him, taking time away from the other characters.

Writing can only go so far. Don't the actors and their individual talents go a long way to make the character what it is? (See: William Peterson as Grissom.)

I disagree with "the writing IS the character". Alot of people think that Ray was not a good character. However, there were--and still are--people who think Sara is not a good character. People either love her or hate her; there's not a whole lot in between. Was that because of the writing? Or because of the way Jorja Fox portrayed her? When I read negative comments about Sara/Jorja, the issue isn't about how Sara is written--it's about Jorja's acting.

 

[Kasey47]

From what we know about the process between writers and actors on CSI is that there is a collaborative back and forth between the two. So if a character is not liked wouldn't it be both the writer's and the actor's fault per se?

Isn't there also the saying that an actor is only as good as the words he/she are given to say...but also a writer is only as good as the actor's ability to convey those words in the proper way?