Season 12 Spoiler Lab Discussion

[Robinjn]

Catherine- she's in charge so the person in charge usually gets some heat, really
Al- how much of an autopsy did he really do?


They reported self defense and yes they didn't quite have all the evidence but still imagine how in court lawyers from then on could spin all this if Ray says he did it or whatever might happen in the premiere

To suggest that Doc Robbins cut corners on the autopsy to benefit his pal Ray is ludicrous. Doc is a consummate professional. Yeah, he got a little testy when Catherine asked him about the cuff marks, but did not speculate on how they got there. As far as he was concerned the cause of death was the fall. He did his job.

Catherine may be responsible to a point for the stuff that her team does. However, the key evidence here is the missing cuff, which was Brass's doing. Brass does not report to her and he is technically not on her team.

As far as the way the lawyers might spin it in court, why would they want to, unless they had some sort of vendetta against Ray? Same goes for the I.A. guy. Ray is gone either way, so I don't suppose it really matters that much.

 

[Ipstenu]

LF had not decided to leave the show until ... pretty much when he said he wasn't coming back. Everyone on the show has said they were surprised. I think it was known he wasn't really happy or enjoying things, and that he didn't plan to stay super-long, but still, all the signs were that he was coming back. Marg certainly didn't know.

As for the characters, least culpable would be Greg (who didn't do anything - by which I mean he was jaded to think Ray was innocent, but he just did his job) and Sara (who similarly did her job, though was not as trusting of Ray's innocence as Greg). Nick could get in trouble for LA. Catherine.... is questionable. She's got plausible deniability going on. Brass's ass would be grass, thought

Maybe Ecklie will say he did it

 

[vegaslights]

I'm hearing that title is a foiler.

 

[Desertwind]

Well according to this article in EW Magazine and The Hollywood Reporter in May, he was extremly happy and stated I'm not looking to go anywhere, how he was having a great time and how he LOVED IT that doesn't sound like he was planning to leave. Things do change however, and something happened, which we may never know. The "he wanted to go back to the big screen" was bogus, due to the fact that he made 3 movies and did his reknown play "Thurgood" all the while filming CSI~

 

[byline]

Are SVU fans as used to major cast changes as L&O fans were? I know the main leads of L&O got replaced a few times (although I quit watching after Orbach and Noth both left, so I guess that says something ). SVU seems more focused on Benson and Stabler though, so it'll be interested to see how it goes without them.

"Law & Order" practically had a revolving door of cast members throughout its entire run, and for the most part did quite well despite that. Jerry Orbach was probably the one irreplaceable actor, but I thought the series did quite well in its last two seasons with a mostly new cast and a renewed sense of energy.

On the other hand, "SVU" started out as an ensemble cast but then got turned into the Benson & Stabler show after its first few seasons. It got to be less about the cases and more about the characters, and so because of that focus, I think the constant cast changes hurt them far more than they did the mothership.

 

[beaujolais]

I asked a good friend who’s a recently retired state police corporal about what could potentially happen to Ray, Brass, and the CSIs. I won’t go into her opinion of CSI and how they portray CSIs and cops (not good) but she was nice enough to answer my questions.

If Ray says he killed Haskell, as in murder, it would be suspension without pay pending the disposition of the case. It would depend on the Nevada penal code but he would probably be charged with Murder, Voluntary Manslaughter or maybe get it dropped to Involuntary Manslaughter. He may be charged with all three and then see what the jury finds him guilty of.

The only way Brass would go down is if Ray throws him under the bus and I don’t think Ray would do that. However, if he did, Brass would be charged with Hindering Apprehension or Prosecution which is most likely a Felony of the 3rd Degree. You can't carry a gun with a felony conviction which means even if he doesn't get fired outright he can't be a cop without a gun. And on this show Brass couldn't even be a CSI since they all carry guns.

As for Catherine and the rest of the CSI's, if it's found out that they are withholding evidence or didn't fully investigate the case, it will get them fired and/or charged. For the police it's all about CYA.

However, as we all know CSI does not play in the real world so they can basically make it go anyway they want.

 

[Desertwind]

Thank's beaujolais for the interesting insight. And I'm postive that Ray would NEVER give up Brass, they bonded and he had great respect for Jim since the onset. I also know that when the "contract" thing was up for LF's renewal, none of us were in that room, so we don't know what "they" said or what "he" said, apparently it was something he did not agree with

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

I agree that Ray would never throw Brass under the bus. First of all, it would not help Ray's case at all. If Ray admits to murder and tells that Brass covered it up, him telling about Brass' part would not get him a lighter sentence and Brass stuck his neck out for Ray... therefore there would be no incentive for Ray to rat Brass out. I don't think Ray would ever do that in million years.

I think like others have stated, that Ray will say self defense and then decide to quite his job at the lab.

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

LF had not decided to leave the show until ... pretty much when he said he wasn't coming back. Everyone on the show has said they were surprised. I think it was known he wasn't really happy or enjoying things, and that he didn't plan to stay super-long, but still, all the signs were that he was coming back. Marg certainly didn't know.

As for the characters, least culpable would be Greg (who didn't do anything - by which I mean he was jaded to think Ray was innocent, but he just did his job) and Sara (who similarly did her job, though was not as trusting of Ray's innocence as Greg). Nick could get in trouble for LA. Catherine.... is questionable. She's got plausible deniability going on. Brass's ass would be grass, thought

Maybe Ecklie will say he did it

Nick can't get in trouble for LA, he didn't do anything wrong there that the IA would question. The only thing he didn't do was notify Catherine he found Ray and made Ray go home.

Greg and Sara could get in trouble for not fully investigating the cuff marks on Ray, as well as Catherine.

However, in the end none of them will probably get in trouble. :lol:

 

[Crumbs]

Nick can't get in trouble for LA, he didn't do anything wrong there that the IA would question. The only thing he didn't do was notify Catherine he found Ray and made Ray go home.

The team made a complete flop with the Haskell investigation ever since he escaped jail, so everything leading up to his death which they did should be considered relevant for inquiry, that includes LA.

The consequences of Nick not sending Haskell home as his supervisor asked him led to the ridiculous cat and mouse chase on the Pier. If my memory recalls at least one LAPD officer was shot as a result and Haskell managed to get away then. Nick was also directly involved in that chase and if I remember correctly, the two of them were actually cuffed and brought into custody. which should warrant an automatic firing in itself. Please don't make me watch Cello and Goodbye again in order to double-check. :lol:

Heck, Nick was lucky not to be demoted or suspended let alone Ray. Whilst Ray was ultimately responsible for this, Nick should have stepped up and stopped Ray before he ran off again and as Asst. Supervisor should have reported back to Catherine. To me that smells like violation of protocol which the IA would want to know about.

Of course, all of them are culpable for this whole Haskell mess. (I'm only picking up on Nick here to disagree with your point.) In fact if anything, Ecklie and higher up should be in trouble for actually letting their team investigate it. I know they've done it plenty of times in the past but I'm sure it's something that they'd bring up.

However, in the end none of them will probably get in trouble. :lol:

Yes that seems very likely. :lol:

 

[Elayne]

Well according to this article in EW Magazine and The Hollywood Reporter in May, he was extremly happy and stated I'm not looking to go anywhere, how he was having a great time and how he LOVED IT that doesn't sound like he was planning to leave. Things do change however, and something happened, which we may never know. The "he wanted to go back to the big screen" was bogus, due to the fact that he made 3 movies and did his reknown play "Thurgood" all the while filming CSI~

The tipping point for LF may have changed once Gina got the part on "Suits." Their daughter, I think, is still pre-school and while LF is hardly going to be Mr. Mom, he and Gina probably agreed that it wouldn't be good for both of them to be working full-time.

 

[Robinjn]

I have another possibility as to what Ray may or may not be charged with. It was pretty obvious that Haskell was goading Ray into giving in to his dark side and pretty much encouraged Ray to beat him up and ultimately kill him. Haskell "won" because he wanted Ray to kill him, and he did. That's "suicide by cop".

 

[babydoll]

You know what bugs me... well this particularly bugged me during the episode, I guess now I'm not so sure what I think. But my immediate reaction was that...

Haskell is a convicted serial killer with the MAOA gene, a long history with Ray which resulted in Haskell trying to kill Ray, and since then, Haskell, the very dangerous convicted serial killer escaped from prison, took on a new identity, kidnapped Ray's wife, and was then out to kill Ray in the most torturous way possible (I know I didn't find the case interesting, but I still paid attention)... Haskell now has Ray where he wants him, and there is no doubt in anybody's mind that Haskell's intent was to kill Ray.

If Ray was a cop, (which he is NOT, as CSIs are NOT cops), he more or less would have had the authority to say, I'm arresting you, and if Haskell continued to not respond while Ray had the gun pointed at Haskell, he could have shot him.

What I'm trying to say is that, for one, I don't see how the man managed to stay alive so long because technically they should have killed him one any of the opportunities after he escaped when they momentarily caught him (sadly a cop copped it for that.) Did Ray really NEED to use the cuffs? He was in self defense, his life was at risk, no-one was gonna say he shouldn't have killed Haskell in that situation after everything that happened, the guy practically deserves a medal. So the cuffs were a little premeditated, (and yes, unnecessary), but aside from that... does anybody really think Ray kiling Haskell was a... Murder?

Because honestly, I think if the rest of the team had taken a leaf out of Sara and Greg's book, and just accepted the evidence for what it was, if Brass hadn't been SO unlike himself and contaminate the scene to cover up the facts as they were... the outcome really would not have been all that different. The team would have slept better for being so honest, at the end of the day, nobody really judges Ray for killing the guy that's been going around killing everybody else... again, since he escaped from prison and the cops have done a crap job of finding him (yet Ray's done such a good job of that) - there is no way this was cold-blooded murder. cuffs or no cuffs, I guess what I'm trying to say is, why did Brass and Nick and the team in general make such a fuss about these cuffs, they're not the end of the world!!

 

[Speedystokesgirl]

Nick can't get in trouble for LA, he didn't do anything wrong there that the IA would question. The only thing he didn't do was notify Catherine he found Ray and made Ray go home.

The team made a complete flop with the Haskell investigation ever since he escaped jail, so everything leading up to his death which they did should be considered relevant for inquiry, that includes LA.

The consequences of Nick not sending Haskell home as his supervisor asked him led to the ridiculous cat and mouse chase on the Pier. If my memory recalls at least one LAPD officer was shot as a result and Haskell managed to get away then. Nick was also directly involved in that chase and if I remember correctly, the two of them were actually cuffed and brought into custody. which should warrant an automatic firing in itself. Please don't make me watch Cello and Goodbye again in order to double-check. :lol:

Heck, Nick was lucky not to be demoted or suspended let alone Ray. Whilst Ray was ultimately responsible for this, Nick should have stepped up and stopped Ray before he ran off again and as Asst. Supervisor should have reported back to Catherine. To me that smells like violation of protocol which the IA would want to know about.

Of course, all of them are culpable for this whole Haskell mess. (I'm only picking up on Nick here to disagree with your point.) In fact if anything, Ecklie and higher up should be in trouble for actually letting their team investigate it. I know they've done it plenty of times in the past but I'm sure it's something that they'd bring up.

Hey, I didn't say Nick didn't 'cowboy up' :lol:, but the IA will want to know what happened the night Haskell was killed and in the end Catherine would be the one taking the heat as she, well Ecklie too, should never have allowed Ray to be any part of this investigation. Especially after attacking Ray in the hospital and stabbing him.

Buy yes, they're are all culpable for this whole mess. I totally agree with that

They all need to get a 'slap on the wrist', as it where. :lol: I'll volunteer to 'slap' Nick.

 

[Raynn]

The fuss about the cuffs is because it makes the difference between self-defense (NO other option; imminent danger to self or others) and murder (no matter how much Haskell "deserved" to die, that's for the courts to decide, not a rogue CSI).

The stuff in LA, especially Ray buying the illegal gun, does pertain to the current investigation, as it shows Ray's state of mind and history with chasing down Haskell. It shows that he is clearly not staying within the bounds of t.lhe law anymore.

If Ray does say 'self-defense' then no matter if he quits or not, he still walks away a free man, rather than get charged with murder. Although I don't want to see Brass go down for it any more than anyone else, that just really wouldn't sit right with me, but at least he'll be gone and we can move on with the rest of the team. I still wonder how on earth they would have gotten out of that situation if Fishburne had re-signed - which makes me wonder if they're just that bad at writing themselves into a corner, or if they knew ahead of time he wouldn't be returning.

The 'suicide by cop' theory is an interesting one, but in the end, Ray should have been the 'better man' and not given in to Haskell's goading. Suicide by cop is usually done by being an imminent threat, and forcing them to kill you, not just by being annoying. I do agree that Haskell's ultimate goal was to get Ray to give in to his anger, not kill Ray - he seemed quite upset that killing wasn't fun anymore, and making Ray give in to his anger and screw up his own life by becoming a murderer is much better revenge than just killing him.

However, in the end none of them will probably get in trouble.

So true. :lol: