"Redrum" Discussion **Spoilers**

[Alyssa]

See, Catherine's not one to follow the rules, though. I mean, she does what she thinks is right a lot of the time rather than what she's supposed to do. She told Grissom about Sam's Limo's tire size when she was supposed to be off the case. She got the one million dollars for Nick when it was a really risky move because people could have claimed that the lab was under Sam Braun's thumb. When she was assaulted by a murder suspect, she didn't tell Grissom because she wanted to be involved in the investigation... When she thought she might have been raped, she didn't call the lab. She ran her own rape test, then called Sara in to help her.

She's demonstrated a lot of trust in her team despite what "regulation and rules" say in the past, and I think that's what I'm having trouble reconciling with. Catherine buckled, here, under pressure, and I'm not used to that with her. She's usually the one to step up and do what SHE thinks is right, and clearly she thought keeping the team out of this was wrong... so history says she should have said, "Screw everything else" and gone with her gut. In the past, I've been frustrated with her for being so outspoken and so willing to go against the rules... but, in this case, she did the opposite of what she usually does. I'm not saying Catherine is a bad person for this... but I think her NOT telling the others was a bit out of character. That's what it boils down to, I guess.

 

[wlk68]

Well said, Alyssa. Looking at past Catherine behavior this episode goes against type.

As I said in my earlier post: She picked a funny time to suddenly start toeing the line.

 

[Missing]

Very good points there Alyssa.

I think that Catherine should have told the team. She has worked with these people and knows them. I would like to think that they would have supported what was being done and stayed quiet about it.

Now if they role was reversed to it being Sara, I think she would have played it out the same way Cath did.

 

[Waiting]

You have some very good points Alyssa. Maybe Cath is weakened from everything that has happened to her this season. She's had a rough year with a rape scare, daughter being kidnapped, and her father being shot in front of her. All of that surely would weakened someone.

 

[edog]

Waiting said:
Actually, someone brought up a very good point...

I think that the trust was broken both ways. Heck, Cath had orders to follow from the sheriff. So..I'm not going to fault her for not saying anything during the scheme of things. HOwever, the team went behind her back...instead of confronting her. SO...sorry...the trust has been broken in more ways than one. Noone is innocent of this.

Yeah, this was what I was trying to say in an earlier post. The levels of deception in this episode were huge. Keppler and Cath lying to the team, Undersheriff misleading the DA, Nick rallying his team to go against Keppler and Cath behind their backs, Sara commenting on deception despite the secret she is keeping about Gil and herself, etc.

No one was entirely innocent in this episode.

I do understand that Catherine has a penchant for doing what she wants, despite known consequences, but I don't think this decision falls in the same category as the ones mentioned above.

Going against Grissom and getting money from Sam (to save Nick's life, keep in mind) is one thing. Going against the Undersheriff who can have your job for merely disagreeing with him and breaking his confidence is another.

 

[Wojo]

Overall I enjoyed this episode, it kept my attention and I was on edge. The tension between Catherine & Nick Was intense. As I suspected it all worked out in the end and all was forgiven (well almost) I'm sure Nick (and the writers) will soon forget about this and move on like nothing happened.

I was glad that It was the under-sheriff that screwed up and I'm hoping he takes a fall from this. He made me angry, he was very disrespectful of the DA, referring to her as a bitch not once but twice! Then he does not tell her of their plan and it would have resulted in a criminal going free if it weren't for Nick's unwillingness to back off and connecting the cases.

Seems like Nick has gotten a lot tougher lately, and I kinda like it.

Sara and her gift ( a cocoon? ) from Grissom made me roll my eyes and think "We just can't get away from this." but the fact that there was not card or letter was typical Grissom. Also Sara who is usually outspoken and critical, telling Catherine if she had anything to say to her it would be in private, surprised me - in a good way. Seemed to me it was a barb towards Keppler and not Catherine.

I was glad to see some decent screen time for both Warrick and Greg, although Greg got less than the others it was still above average for him, so I was satisfied.

 

[xfcanadian]

Alyssa said:
See, Catherine's not one to follow the rules, though. I mean, she does what she thinks is right a lot of the time rather than what she's supposed to do. She told Grissom about Sam's Limo's tire size when she was supposed to be off the case. She got the one million dollars for Nick when it was a really risky move because people could have claimed that the lab was under Sam Braun's thumb. When she was assaulted by a murder suspect, she didn't tell Grissom because she wanted to be involved in the investigation... When she thought she might have been raped, she didn't call the lab. She ran her own rape test, then called Sara in to help her.

She's demonstrated a lot of trust in her team despite what "regulation and rules" say in the past, and I think that's what I'm having trouble reconciling with. Catherine buckled, here, under pressure, and I'm not used to that with her. She's usually the one to step up and do what SHE thinks is right, and clearly she thought keeping the team out of this was wrong... so history says she should have said, "Screw everything else" and gone with her gut. In the past, I've been frustrated with her for being so outspoken and so willing to go against the rules... but, in this case, she did the opposite of what she usually does. I'm not saying Catherine is a bad person for this... but I think her NOT telling the others was a bit out of character. That's what it boils down to, I guess.

there wouldn't really have been a storyline if catherine told the team right away, that is what it all boils down to.

 

[loki]

Wonder who Hodges was talking to? Isn't this the second time we've seen him trying to check Keppler's background?

Oh, I forgot about this... yeah, I think he did in Sweet Jane too, didn't he? I think if anyone's going to figure out who Keppler "is" it will be him. Not just because of background checks, but he's in the lab all the time, and he's been keeping an eye on Keppler. Like when he confronted him in ballistics...

 

[sarahvma]

I think the point is that Grissom would've told them to go to hell, and just walked off. Catherine plays office politics, so she can't.

But she could've bargained. She could've said, "My team will need to be on board for this".

As it was, they came off looking like fools - Nick, Warrick, Sara and Greg basically demolished their idea within hours, and Warrick (with the glass in the bullet thing) sort of made it seem like Keppler and Catherine had no idea how to fake a crime scene. And Keppler was supposedly the "expert".

They also were "evading" people like children - stepping in front of the car door? Saying she "just can't talk about it" to Sara? Telling the lab tech to just leave?

Forgetting the moral problems with each of those, it was more like, "Really? You can't come up with better excuses?"

I liked the episode, but Keppler and Catherine came off pretty much as badly as they possibly could. And in a strange way, I found Catherine's repititions of "I don't like this" to be silly. If you don't like it, Catherine, bow out. You can still keep a vow of silence, but you won't be connected.

In the end, I'm surprised the DA accepted any evidence in the same case again. They could've wound up totally demolishing the reputation of the entire lab and killed their careers.

 

[xfcanadian]

sarahvma said:
I think the point is that Grissom would've told them to go to hell, and just walked off. Catherine plays office politics, so she can't.

But she could've bargained. She could've said, "My team will need to be on board for this".

As it was, they came off looking like fools - Nick, Warrick, Sara and Greg basically demolished their idea within hours, and Warrick (with the glass in the bullet thing) sort of made it seem like Keppler and Catherine had no idea how to fake a crime scene. And Keppler was supposedly the "expert".

They also were "evading" people like children - stepping in front of the car door? Saying she "just can't talk about it" to Sara? Telling the lab tech to just leave?

Forgetting the moral problems with each of those, it was more like, "Really? You can't come up with better excuses?"

I liked the episode, but Keppler and Catherine came off pretty much as badly as they possibly could. And in a strange way, I found Catherine's repititions of "I don't like this" to be silly. If you don't like it, Catherine, bow out. You can still keep a vow of silence, but you won't be connected.

In the end, I'm surprised the DA accepted any evidence in the same case again. They could've wound up totally demolishing the reputation of the entire lab and killed their careers.

I think you would hate catherine no matter what she would have done. We know that Grissom doesn't play politics, because he doesn't care, but catherine does care. She does want to go forward with her career. Its just a case, Nick, Warrick, Sara and Greg didn't even need to know about it. There are a lot of confidential stuff at a crime lab.

 

[Waiting]

In the end, I'm surprised the DA accepted any evidence in the same case again. They could've wound up totally demolishing the reputation of the entire lab and killed their careers.

I think because it was a completely different case. It was the case that Sara and Greg had originally. They didn't present this case with the other one.

I liked the episode, but Keppler and Catherine came off pretty much as badly as they possibly could.

Actually, I think they all have their faults in this episode. Catherine didn't tell her team because the undersheriff told her not too. When it came to her job she made the best decision personally. Which anyone would have...including Sara--isn't she just as good at keeping secrets if not better?

Nick went against his supervisors orders to stay away from the case...then included the others in his insight. He took things in his own hands himself. So it seems the same pattern played out with each individual on the team.

Also if Catherine would have backed out...that would have probably landed her in trouble with the undersheriff as well.

 

[Alyssa]

xfcanadian said:
there wouldn't really have been a storyline if catherine told the team right away, that is what it all boils down to.

And THAT is my problem with the episode. They made Catherine, in my opinion, act outside of her usual character traits in order to facilitate a more dramatic episode. It was drama for drama's sake. That is what really burns me about this episode. This episode was put in there to stir up some drama while Grissom was away, but these types of storylines rarely rally the support of the fans. The purpose of this episode wasn't to showcase a different way of catching bad guys. It was to showcase a rift in the team, to show that the team was fracturing.. and it's all unnecessary.

 

[Hottie_Cath]

They also were "evading" people like children - stepping in front of the car door? Saying she "just can't talk about it" to Sara? Telling the lab tech to just leave?

Note that they aren't Sara, keeping secrets and lying aren't their forte.

In the end, I'm surprised the DA accepted any evidence in the same case again.

The DA approved the evidence from the Monique Carter case, it wasn't explicitly stated that the evidence from the Assemblyman's case was accepted.

They could've wound up totally demolishing the reputation of the entire lab and killed their careers.

Yes, they touched on that at the beginning of the episode, they know the risks that's why they tried to be careful. Brass, Keppler and Catherine did what they had to do, it was the Sheriff who screwed up. As Brass said, had the Undersheriff cleared their operation with the DA beforehand then the evidence in the Assemblyman's case could have been accepted in court no matter how unorthodox Keppler's idea might've been.

I think the point is that Grissom would've told them to go to hell, and just walked off. Catherine plays office politics, so she can't.
But she could've bargained. She could've said, "My team will need to be on board for this".

The US looked so convinced with Keppler's plan and he was determined to go with it, so even if Catherine would refuse to follow him, and kept herself out of the case (and out of her job) more likely the Undersheriff, Brass and Keppler would still push through with their plan. Who knows what would the Undersheriff could do with the team if Catherine wasn't there to look out for them.

 

[NHRFan]

I forgot about the fake crime scene. Catherine and Keppler are not good at faking the crime scene. Nick wouldn't act that way if he didn't see that same cup as his last crime scene with Catherine.

 

[korbjaeger]

...including Sara--isn't she just as good at keeping secrets if not better?

Guess that depends whose secret it is...

From "Swap Meet"

MIA DICKERSON: (oh great) Twenty-six used condoms.

GREG: Just like being back in college, right?

MIA DICKERSON: Sara said you didn't lose your virginity until you were 22.

People - not just Sara, Cath, et al - can be selective about "secrets" at times...