I,from the first episode.. when she was standing behind him.. and he goes Sara Sidle.. I saw the connection right off...and he told Cath he was bringing in an old "friend" Hmmmm old friend.. or that's how he labeled "her" so for her to be interested in Nick..Warrick. Greg or anyone else was never there..at least the way I perceived them
I said:
Speaking of symmetry, it dawned on me this morning that we got another moment of symmetry with Burn Out. Way back in season 1 or 2 (i think - i can't remember the ep due to my brain throbbing this morning) Sara walks into the layout room, where Grissom is listening to opera, and Sara switches it off. Anyone who can name the ep for me gets cookies.
TS and I spent a chunk of time trying to figure out what episode this was from (to the point of insanity, really). In the end, I broke down and asked over in the Trace lab at YTDAW. So the cookies go to the very lovely butterflied814, who informed me that this scene takes place in the season 3 opener - "Revenge is Best Served Cold"
[INT. CSI - GRISSOM'S OFFICE]
(GRISSOM is looking at the list of the Product Drink by Server List. A Mozart
Aria playing in the background.)
(SARA walks in and turns the stereo-player off. GRISSOM looks up.)
With regards to the poll, I went with c) - Grissom wasn't ready and I'm glad they waited before getting together. Although I disagree with the Sara pushing him part. Seriously, the girl asked him out a grand total of ONE times. In what universe is that pushing? I've been pushier than that with people in the past, and I'm a commitment-phobe, so that's the yardstick which I'm using for comparison at any rate...
naaah, we all know they won't, it would be too soapy. i agree with fogi though, that the question "when they got together" is what we are now waiting for the most.
When the GSR is happy, you don't need to write a story about them going home and doing it six ways from Sunday cuz... they probably do.
The fantasy is gone, and I suppose that while we have less to talk about, the center of this should always have been the show, and I'd rather have a very well-made show.
well, i would disagree with that. we still don't see them making out or doing anything more than saying "dear" so the fantasies are more realistic, more probable to happen, thus they are a lot more fun. i don't know, maybe it's just the way i feel about it. cuz i can read only IC ff, so now for me they all make more sense. also that the probability of the fanfic situations to happen is huge comparing to precanon days, makes me just take more pleasure while reading them. and since i'm spoiler-free i can expect it happening every next episode i watch, which is an utterly amazing experience. YAY spoiler-free.
I don't totally know that I agree with that, but I do think that we're far less willing to accept Grissom with other women.
yeah, i know you all do, but i would actually accept anyone they would give him. okay, not everyone. she had to be pretty, smart and young for me to be a Grissom/That Person shipper. but the fact that i was originally GSR shipper makes me feel that i belong here more than anywhere else. in exception of Kessom. Kessom is equal to GSR. if it was canon instead of GSR i would be sailing on the Soul Mate thread, which sadly is the same one (no. 5) since i registered on Talk. lol. *is a meanie*
but the thing with Grissom is that ... i am very protective, i would explain him from almost every situation, and well, he is my favorite TV character.
Sara, umm, i think the fact that GSR is canon, and that people tend to criticize CSI for it, makes me defend Sara a lot.
Don't listen to her lies, y'all. She's all petticoats and silk gloves and Japanese fans.
so she's a mini-Sofia you're saying? interesting. very interesting.
on the poll i picked no.3. i agree with forensicsgirl on it, also keeping in mind what WP said. that if GG accepted to have dinner with her in PWF, they would be divorced by now.
ETA: i'm sorry for my english in this post. i'm really tired. i just re-read it all and realized that i babbled and rambled like never. lol.
For the poll i went for the third option. I mean i think that we dislike more Grissom in the past seasons because of his behavior, that he wasnt ready and blah blah blah but really Sara was the one who persisted on him. And like ziggy mentioned above since most of us are girls we were on her side. But really we knew that although he liked her and wanted her it was just not the right time for him and that made us disliked him for that(or at least me).
Grissom was always and still is my favorite character though. His character is one of the most unique and amazing on television IMO....and now of course GSR is one of the most unique and kind of odd couples on television IMO.
Kay so firstly with the symmetry, that's pretty sweet. I love how both of their reactions are the same to. Awesomeness.
Secondly, I picked the second choice from the poll. I'm sure they both understand how utterly dumb Grissom was in the past and what-not, and I don't think she'd MAKE him make it up to her. I'm pretty sure Sara's happy with now, and just being with him is enough to make up for it. They had to have talked about it at one point to, probably at the same time they probably had a long talk about their feelings and what had to be done to keep everything a secret...Wow, they talk alot. =P
jordan said:
Secondly, I picked the second choice from the poll. I'm sure they both understand how utterly dumb Grissom was in the past and what-not, and I don't think she'd MAKE him make it up to her. I'm pretty sure Sara's happy with now, and just being with him is enough to make up for it.
I agree, jordan. I don't think Sara has some checklist where she's comparing what Grissom did in the past to what he's doing now, and whether or not it balances things out. They both made mistakes in their respective pasts - some with regard to each other, and some not. But its an unhappy person that lives continuously in the past, thinking over past wrongs rather than moving on and embracing the present and future (why is it every time I post in here, I feel like I'm talking about myself, rather than Grissom and Sara? :lol: )
I think they both acknowledge that they had a rocky road getting to this point, but they're here now. They're together, despite whatever mistakes may or may not have been made. And that's the important thing. They're together and they're happy, and in order to stay that way they need to enjoy the present and focus on their future together. Which, I think they are doing. And it's one of the reasons why I'm now kind of happy that we didn't see a big "Sara, I'm so sorry for x, y and z..." between them at the beginning of the relationship. I know a lot of people said they wanted an apology from Grissom at the outset of a relationship, and I think I thought I wanted one too way back when, but now I think it was unnecessary. Apologies come in more than one form, and by making a promise for the future, and by being kind and loving to one another in the present, they are more than making up for the past. Both to each other, and in terms of the torture they put us shippers through.
And that is my 'between-headaches-rambly-post-for-the-day" Make of it what you will...
Well, the person who spoke to me on YTDaW said that a lot of Sara fans support GSR because it's what Sara wants. In other words, I guess, if Sara had truly loved Nick or Greg or Warrick or Ecklie or Hodges or Pet Rock, we would've been OH! Pet Rosara! OTP!!!!
I think that's a good point.. however, I'm also a huge Sandle, as you know, and I'm not really sure that Sara necessarily wants Greg.. Maybe it's why I stick to GSR anyway though. I like that theory. But don't you knock Pet RoSara. It's totally my OTP.
Don't listen to her lies, y'all. She's all petticoats and silk gloves and Japanese fans.
But they're MANLY petticoats, silk gloves, and Japanese fans.
Sara drove me nuts in the beginning with the way she went at trying to get Grissom. She tried to impress him (remember "murder central?") to get his attention, and it drove me nuts because she just didn't get it.
Agreed. It was hard to see her keep throwing herself at him, keep putting herself out there and getting smacked down. I think that probably relates back to us sympathising with the character of Sara. Each time it happened it was a little bit of a wince for us, like 'WHY, SARA? JUST STOP IT!' Which is why I voted 'Not at all' on poll-happy Sarah's latest. imo, he made it very clear that while he enjoyed flirting with her, he didn't want to go beyond that right away. He may have led her on a little bit in the beginning, but I don't think it was intentional, and after he turned her down for dinner it became just painful to see her throw herself at him over and over. Especially since at that point it seemed that he wasn't about to change his feelings on the matter anytime soon.
so she's a mini-Sofia you're saying? interesting. very interesting.
With regards to the poll, I went with c) - Grissom wasn't ready and I'm glad they waited before getting together. Although I disagree with the Sara pushing him part. Seriously, the girl asked him out a grand total of ONE times. In what universe is that pushing? I've been pushier than that with people in the past, and I'm a commitment-phobe, so that's the yardstick which I'm using for comparison at any rate...
But she often brought up the connection or made him feel uncomfortable about it. Granted, Grissom really should've either told her "I do not want to go out with you because..." or rather "I can't"
The big problem with Butterflied is that it basically is presenting him as a vending machine with no coin slot. She knows that he loves her, she knows that he wants to be with her, but he has basically stated that there's no way he will. So she can't move on, because she knows he still feels for her, but she also can't move forward.
I don't think she pushed him, and in truth I always go a little further with the poll options than is absolutely necessary, but I do think she was doing far more pushing than he was, and therefore on the Grissom-to-Sara bellcurve... lol. Sorry - I'm learning about operant conditioning in psychology.
Sara's flirtation is an uncontrolled stimulus to what Adzix would call the Hottness. Her giving him time is a Conditioned Response to the Unconditioned Stimulus of him becoming uncomfortable, therefore... *brain explodes* I have a test. Who wants to write it for me? Anyone? Anyone?
naaah, we all know they won't, it would be too soapy. i agree with fogi though, that the question "when they got together" is what we are now waiting for the most.
True - and like I said to Dayna, as much as I do enjoy being canon, without knowing the terms of the canonization, it's hard to fully... support it? Or enjoy it?
I think the reason is this: if Grissom went to Sara, said that he wanted to be with her, and they made tender, tender love amongst rose petals, then cool.
If Grissom went to her because of Grave Danger, felt lost, and they made "oops, that probably shouldn't have happened sex" less cool, but understandable.
If Sara knocked on Grissom's door because of Grave Danger, they made "oops" sex, and then he went on to successfully ignore her until Time of Your Death... not cool at all.
So no matter how happy they are now, the timeline could really wind up tainting things.
well, i would disagree with that. we still don't see them making out or doing anything more than saying "dear" so the fantasies are more realistic, more probable to happen, thus they are a lot more fun. i don't know, maybe it's just the way i feel about it. cuz i can read only IC ff, so now for me they all make more sense. also that the probability of the fanfic situations to happen is huge comparing to precanon days, makes me just take more pleasure while reading them. and since i'm spoiler-free i can expect it happening every next episode i watch, which is an utterly amazing experience. YAY spoiler-free.
Yeah - but for a long time it was supply and demand. People were getting to a point where they were so frustrated with the show for NOT having GSR, that writers were made to feel like if their story didn't hurry up and get them together, it was bad. Ask Fogs.
So conversely, I've noticed that people no longer mind angst stories like Kristen Elizabeth's because we aren't desperate to read about them getting together since they already are.
yeah, i know you all do, but i would actually accept anyone they would give him. okay, not everyone. she had to be pretty, smart and young for me to be a Grissom/That Person shipper.
And that was my point - you are far more a Grissom fan than a Sara fan. For Sara fans, if Grissom isn't with her, he shouldn't be with anyone else. And I think you probably don't feel the same way about Sara, but if, let's say, Lady Heather had walked out of that bathroom, if Sara started dating Ecklie, you probably wouldn't care *that* much.
So... less of the "Sara must be with Grissom" and more of the "I wouldn't be that invested in who Sara dated".
With the GSRs, I think that there *is* a sense that Grissom owed Sara a little bit. So that may have more to do with it.
but the fact that i was originally GSR shipper makes me feel that i belong here more than anywhere else. in exception of Kessom. Kessom is equal to GSR. if it was canon instead of GSR i would be sailing on the Soul Mate thread, which sadly is the same one (no. 5) since i registered on Talk. lol. *is a meanie*
I think 5 threads is rather impressive when it's a ship surrounding a character that's been in 3 episodes.
Grissom was always and still is my favorite character though. His character is one of the most unique and amazing on television IMO....and now of course GSR is one of the most unique and kind of odd couples on television IMO.
There IS another option here, and that could be that in the first season, Grissom was a Golden God. Everything he said was right and just and true, and when he hated the man, everyone hated the man. As time went on, they very wisely decided to make Grissom a flawed character. It made for a more interesting experience. If Grissom wasn't always right, then there was that doubt that what he did might not always be the perfect choice.
Therefore, he was faulty. The consequence to this was that in some situations (deciding who worked After the Show, who got the promotion) even though his reasoning was correct, his explanation sucked, and he did come off as a bit of a jerk.
So I think it's more the fact that it's so hard to define Grissom that people would rather focus on understanding Sara who, while complicated, at least lets you see everything she's feeling.
Example: Toe Tags. Sara likes reminiscing about the first lecture. She likes teasing him. Was Grissom annoyed? Was he embarassed? Was he trying to conceal his own flirtations because he knew Brass was going to show up? Or do we not know what HE had been feeling at that first lecture - maybe guilt at having a crush on a young student. So there's that. Just like with the music scenario - we watched Sara's whole process of reasoning. Grissom came off cold, even though we KNEW why.
They're together, despite whatever mistakes may or may not have been made. And that's the important thing. They're together and they're happy, and in order to stay that way they need to enjoy the present and focus on their future together.
That's probably pretty good advice for the ship scrooges like me focusing so hard on the timeline.
I know a lot of people said they wanted an apology from Grissom at the outset of a relationship, and I think I thought I wanted one too way back when, but now I think it was unnecessary.
I don't think Grissom needs to give her an apology. I think that as long as she heard the Butterflied speech, she understood after that that all of his grouchiness was a front - a wall he was putting up.
I DO, however, think that it needed to be Grissom who made the first move, and I also think that he shouldn't have ignored her after that first move was made.
Which is why Bite Me is a bit of a tense point - in some respects, for all we know, it was Sara saying "Let's not get ahead of ourselves" and Grissom going, "My God, I'm ready here after 6 years and you want to put on the breaks?"
Because I did feel that his tone in BM was rather mocking - as if he was parroting something back to her.
Absolutely no argument from me on that front. Sara had already put herself on the line, so if anything was going to happen between them, it was Grissom turn to make the first move. And, for what its worth, I suspect it was - and I'll continue to believe it was unless canon proves me otherwise...
and I also think that he shouldn't have ignored her after that first move was made.
Hmm, him avoiding/ignoring her... Was it the right/nice/good thing to do? Absolutely not. It was pretty hurtful and stupid (don't make me go into my "boys are stupid" routine, cuz I've got it down to a fine art ) But was it understandable? Well, in some ways it was.
I love Sara. I've been in her shoes a whole bunch of times (the unrequited love/feelings shoes, not the having large amounts of Geek!Sex with the G-Man ) But I've also been in Grissom's shoes. Someone has feelings for you, you don't know what to do about them, you don't know how you feel or if you want to pursue anything. Its bloody scary and annoying and the easy thing to do is bury your head and ignore it. Or run very quickly in the opposite direction. And while we'd always like our heros to do the hard thing, the noble thing, sometimes, like in real life, they take the easy option.
I'm not excusing Grissom's behavior, or the choices he made, but the thing I love most about Grissom, about all of the characters in CSI for that matter, is that he's flawed. He's not this 1 dimensional, cardboard cut out of a wonderful guy, who makes only good decisions. He's human. He messes up. They all do from time to time. And I'm glad, because otherwise they'd be bloody boring characters. Like the "Golden God Grissom" Sarah mentioned from the 1st season. No thanks.
Which is why Bite Me is a bit of a tense point - in some respects, for all we know, it was Sara saying "Let's not get ahead of ourselves" and Grissom going, "My God, I'm ready here after 6 years and you want to put on the breaks?"
Again, he's being human here. He's insecure. They've taken so long to get here and Sara's maybe taking things slowly because she doesn't want to get hurt (and who could blame her) and Grissom's going "come on. I'm here. I want this. What's the problem?" They're both being as insecure as each other, but they're just showing it in different ways. (Which is why I think this was early days for them in terms of the relationship - ie: I think they just started sleeping with each other around this time, and they were still in the 'early days, is this going to work or am I going to get my heart stomped on' stage of the relationship...)
Everytime ya'll talk about the "Bite Me" scene i have to go back and see it again. Why? Cause that scene is just so confusing and everyone has different theories about it. I myself have changed my theory several times and still dont know what to think about it....now im going to go re-wathed it again...
Are there any spoilers on tonights episode? Any GSR scenes?
Absolutely no argument from me on that front. Sara had already put herself on the line, so if anything was going to happen between them, it was Grissom turn to make the first move. And, for what its worth, I suspect it was - and I'll continue to believe it was unless canon proves me otherwise...
Agreed. The reason I get that feeling is that (besides wishful thinking) Committed and Snakes really seemed to set that up. Snakes was Sara saying, "Here's how I feel, but I'm not chasing anymore". Then Grissom DID come to her in Nesting Dolls - to her house, not under the pretense of a supervisor like in Bloodlines but as a friend. Then in Committed we see him actively protecting her. He gives Greg a dark look during the suffocation moment, we see him sort of lost and helpless (which to be honest, I know that his freak out would've been shippier, but to me, seeing Grissom at a loss for what to do is a far more powerful image) and then we see him reaching out to her frequently afterwards "baby" being the fluffiest example, and standing right in front of her, protecting her from the nurse immediately afterwards. And, of course, choosing to go to her instead of the crime scene when Adam cuts his throat.
Hmm, him avoiding/ignoring her... Was it the right/nice/good thing to do? Absolutely not. It was pretty hurtful and stupid (don't make me go into my "boys are stupid" routine, cuz I've got it down to a fine art ) But was it understandable? Well, in some ways it was.
True - it was more her line in Room Service that made a lot of people wonder. When Grissom walks off, Sara simply says, "Yeah, that's kind of what he does."
Subtext may or may not have been there. But I think it probably was. Especially since Bite Me and the VERY clear subtext was presented next.
(aka. the subtext itself was not clear, but it was clear that subtext was there).
But I've also been in Grissom's shoes. Someone has feelings for you, you don't know what to do about them, you don't know how you feel or if you want to pursue anything.
Agreed - you also feel like you have no control over it. And in a lot of ways, and I think this is also what Grissom expressed in Butterflied, you aren't totally sure that you ARE reading that person the right way. Grissom thought Sara wanted to do the boss. And once that thrill got old, she would leave him. He didn't read her feelings properly, which is probably why Snakes made him look like he'd been hit by a pylon.
Like the "Golden God Grissom" Sarah mentioned from the 1st season. No thanks.
I just always picture the adoring looks everyone shoots him at the end of Unfriendly Skies - it just always read as very false to me.
Again, he's being human here. He's insecure. They've taken so long to get here and Sara's maybe taking things slowly because she doesn't want to get hurt (and who could blame her) and Grissom's going "come on. I'm here. I want this. What's the problem?"
And I'm willing to bet it WAS Sara to put the brakes on regarding sex. She's still vulnerable and insecure, and she perhaps thinks that getting intimate at this stage means he'll be more likely to leave her (reverse Butterflied?) because she pointedly says "...or romance" aka. We've made out.
This is all pure speculation, but it's how I read the scene. Sara's willing to have sex, she just doesn't want to rush it.
And I think this is backed up now - Grissom is totally gung-ho on this relationship. He's happy to bring her lunch unasked, he calls her dear, he pretty much has her glued to his side at crime scenes (which I'm beginning to think, simply through sheer volume, is intentional because they work together EVERY week, so perhaps a character at some point will point that out).
They're both being as insecure as each other, but they're just showing it in different ways. (Which is why I think this was early days for them in terms of the relationship - ie: I think they just started sleeping with each other around this time, and they were still in the 'early days, is this going to work or am I going to get my heart stomped on' stage of the relationship...)
Right - I'd be willing to guess that they may have even slept together once by Butterflied, but it was still on shaky ground, OR the first time they had sex was right after Grave Danger and Sara wanted to build a relationship before it just turned into an affair.
And in Grissom's mind, if he's in the relationship, it's after years of careful consideration. He's not about to dump her.
From what I recall, they ARE working together on the mini crime scene, but no GSR scenes have been spoiled.
I kinda like that we don't have any big "GSR" scenes spoiled for this episode. Don't get me wrong, I'm GSR crazy, but this is a heavy episode. With the combination of Greg's inquest and the second mini crime scene, things are getting serious, here. I mean, maybe in the early stages of the investigation, a little cute moment ala "Fannysmackin'" would be nice, but I'm not holding out for any major GSR lovin' tonight. Just having them in the same room working the MCSK case will be great!
Well... we don't necessarily know that we don't have GSR scenes. Because of the spoiler problem with a thief stealing from YTDaW and showing them to David Rambo, they have decided to no longer spoil GSR scenes at all. So I can't remember if this episode was spoiled before or after that, but pretty much all episodes are going to be GSR spoil-free this season.
