Geez. Disappear for a wee bit and ya miss all sorts of things. Like another spoiler thread starting. (That's at least twice :lol
. And a ton in here. Be warned. Typical longishness to follow.
i was quite surprised that cliff didn't realise about flack - i thought maybe he did but decided not to push it.
....The one person who really should push with Flack, the one person whose own walls Flack has more or less gotten through is Danny, but Danny's dealing with his own issues now and probably doesn't realize how bad off Flack is. Have they even shared a scene yet this season? I think that Cliff and Mac both don't feel close enough to Flack to push with him.
True about Danny.
I'll agree neither Cliff nor Mac (or even Stella) want to push just yet, though of those three, I'd have thought Stella would. I'm not sure in Mac's case it stems from feeling they're not close enough to talk. They're not tight like Flack and Danny, but Mac is the kind of friend who will stop by your desk at the end of a trying IAB ordeal to offer to commiserate over watching the Rangers game at a bar even if not a huge hockey fan. (I swear I'm not making that up. Am I? :lol: Hope not. Why can't we have more Mac tidbits like that, than MadMac the Enforcer of Justice?
Need a soapbox? There's an app for that :lol:. And, apparently, a Mac for that
). I think it would also be a little odd for Mac to have confided in Flack about Peyton staying in London, for example, if he hadn't felt they were friends enough to do so. Mac doesn't exactly do casual conversation. Except mebbe to explain the non-return of a previous season's character with whom he'd been in a relationship
. But. They coulda had that scene with Stella or Sheldon. Thought it was nice choice to have it with Flack.
I do disagree with something said elsewhere that Mac's got his head in the sand. I think he knows Don's Not Fine. He's prodded Don gently, possibly in part just to let him know he's there, with essentially predictable results. I could read Mac as wanting to give Flack the space and time to deal, as he knew he himself had needed. I think Stella and Mac were each nudging each other a little to see if they were observing the same things, perhaps wondering at what point they ought to say something or approach Don more overtly. And at that point, it seemed like both saw it as more an "I'm concerned" moment rather than a "we need to do something" one. My guess is the show will make the slide far worse before any one of them helps him get Better. Mac likely sees a parallel between himself and Don, and until things fall off the rails, will give Flack the credit and gesture of at least taking him at his word, while still keeping a watchful eye. I think it was evident in Epilogue that Mac read Flack returning from Leave early as saying he didn't have a whole lot else to hold onto other than the Job, and Mac knows what that's like.
From the moment he said "I'm fine" in Pay Up, we all knew Flack wasn't, but who's gonna be the first to outright say so. It could actually be Sythe, calling him a screw up, it could be Terence. It could be someone not as close to him finally calling a spade a spade, whereas those who are closer, for the moment, are handling him with kid gloves. Interesting, it is interesting.
As for Danny/Flack, I do wonder if we'll see them paired again before both paths to recovery are largely done, or if either will play a part in the other's. BTW, is that Pay Up "I'm Fine" actually the last exchange between Danny and Flack? (before the group scene at the bar anyways). And no, I don't think there's been anything this season I can recall.
In Haylen's defense, Mac was pretty much guiding her the entire time they were working with the compass, but seeing as she hadn't even had job training that we saw yet, it was a bit much.
Mebbe I'm not recalling the scene clearly
, but I'd had it in my head Mac had said Haylen was new and "observing?" ...then he let her into the process as a kind of teaching opportunity, complete to asking her how she'd theoretically proceed. Not necessarily a dissimilar dynamic he'd had with Lindsay or Aiden at various points.
Funny how it seems this lack of a victim complex hasn't saved Haylen from being viewed as annoying/unbearable by several. ....IMO, they're already highlighting a big flaw of hers -- her hint of an ego -- and it's the very reason that she seems to be coming off as annoying.
I think Haylen's definitely supposed to come off as forward, pushy, determined, keen, etc. I think she's supposed to be a figure that the others can play off of. She's not a team player, or apparently on any team at all (do crime scene kleen up techs really work solo? I'm asking, I don't know. Seems a little odd to me though). It's been set up that her previous numerous forays into the Labs were rebuffed, and that she's willing to do Whatever It Takes (and damn the cost) to keep at it; additionally, she's only there part-time, and on a grant, not exactly what I'd call wholly integrated into the fold. Doesn't sound like a set up for a Warm Welcome to be expected. As annoying as she may be, and as predictable as a character as she seems, I do think it's a dynamic the show's deliberately pursuing. I hope it's deliberate; if she's actually meant to be a sympathetic little dear trying to carve her way in the big bad world, there's a serious discrepancy between intent and realization :lol:. Mebbe they'll actually have the stones to keep her as an incredibly ambitious, if also a default stunningly intelligent & gifted young woman, who also has a talent for getting up one's nose and is not looking for friends, but who will eventually wow and win everyone and prove her merit regardless. Goody. Exciting either way, no?
Possible they may be setting up to have her Secret be her more humanizing factor down the road, also serving to somehow "explain" her, whether it's a mollifying take or something else entirely. That Sekrit will probably be a tipping point for her portrayal and integration; whether favorable or not. Right now, only known because of spoilers, it's a potential unspoken agenda driving her, or at least a motivation beyond pursuing a Dream Job.
How long do we have to complain that the almighty Mac is getting too irritating for words before TPTB do something about it? .... Now its just Mac, Mac, Mac!!
:lol:. I'm not much liking how Mac's often been used. The righteousness and scenarios written to showcase it are becoming a little one note, and is starting to feel a waste of a great actor and character. I hope they change it up and give him better than relegating him to that alone. Mac is a more complicated character than that, and we have gotten to see more facets of him. I'd like to see some of that return. I do appreciate the effort made and what we learned of his past in the second ep, but present tense I'd love more shading too.
Haylen is rapidly taking over Lindsay's position as the most annoying character. And as Melgeo said Danny BORES me. DANNY bores me. How is this even possible?
:lol:. I agree, Danny is not as interesting as he used to be. The past few seasons, especially where DL are concerned, have not been so kind to him either. As for Monroe. Given she's in every ep, and Haylen is not, I think it'll take a little more than what we've seen to oust Montana from that slot for me :lol:.
Grissom managed to leave CSI Vegas as a mortal criminalist and still garner tons of respect. What happened to Grissom's idea that CSI-ing was all about impartially gathering evidence; instead of, you know, competing over who can collect/defeat the most personal nemeses in a single season?
Grissom also managed to be a moral criminalist, which is Mac's bag, the Moral Man in an Immoral City. If they don't want to muddy him up, I'd like to see at least what bearing the weight of it means.
There does seem a certain prevalence within procedural and crime shows to have an ongoing recurring nemesis in addition to their more typical weekly rollover of perpdom
; some notion seems to have risen that ongoing hunts are somehow requisite to keep viewers engaged, just in case the episodic plots don't keep us tuning in. Nothing new I suppose. But a sudden plethora to be sure
.
Seems they're just going for ways to up the characters' personal stakes. While I like that NY's delving into characters, I hope the cases don't suffer becoming too overly contrived as platforms. A difficult & delicate balance I imagine.
Originally Posted by *lisasimpson*:
the only thing i can wonder is whether mac is deliberately being set up as some kind of superhuman criminal putting away machine so that he can have some major crash of confidence where he realises there's something he can't do - maybe the shooting had an effect on him beyond what we're seeing (after all he's very buttoned up) and actually he's going on this "i must be superhuman" trip to try to avoid anyone realising he's having problems.
If he were having problems, it would be nice to have some teeny tiny hint that he's struggling while still being as driven as ever. Something to indicate it is taking a toll in some way, to color our understanding of his behaviour if that's the case.
Even if it's not tied into the larger Aftermath scheme of things, how about another instance as in S5's Enough, when he realized he'd made a promise he couldn't keep to a victim, and she suffered further for circumstances that followed. I don't know that I need to quite see an Icarus moment, but a few instances of being unable to "Fix" everything would be nice.
And the perps would really have to stop making the case personal to Mac -- I will say this for him, seeing how each criminal so far has all but hand-delivered their plots to his hand/ear/doorstep/etc, I can't blame him for taking them personally.
:lol:. Which is another reason why I hope the writers start to use him & their plots better. (He's not the only one who's Got Mail; Stella got the rat, making that quite personal, and puzzle pieces on her car, and other Drew stuff etc).
I'm hoping they don't completely scrap the ego, because I do find it endearing myself, but she's supposed to be pushy right now; and I think she'll come across as more eager-to-learn soon enough.
I agree she's supposed to seem pushy right now. As for endearing. :lol:. All IMO, but lemme give you a comparison. The most relevant I can currently think of, a character like Hodges on CSI has something about him, despite/because of certain tendencies and traits, that makes him kinda endearing, if one can put it that way :lol:. (A few others: Jane, on the Mentalist, House, Mary on In Plain Sight, and Ziva on NCIS. And with those last two I've managed to include some women into the list. Ha. Most of those are leads, yes. Which is partly why Hodges was first to mind, in addition to his traits). Haylen, as yet, to me, is not possessing qualities and characteristics I find "endearing" :lol:.
She gave off the impression that what she brings equals or outweighs anything she's yet to learn. That whole booksmart brilliance, and with a hint of a chip on her shoulder grown from shovelling after others without due recognition of her true brilliance so far denied opportunity to shine, with many potential arcs for growth and downfall. I'm just tossing out ideas here...
. It is her secret that has me wary in addition to her introduction. With someone like Riley (and I didn't catch many eps last season mind you) there seemed a depth to her, and I trusted she was in it for the Job, if also for herself; she also at least gave off an awareness of how she was coming across, even if she didn't wholly care.
To her credit, Haylen does seem to have some of that awareness, but with some additional air of entitlement, in a bubble unpopped despite Mac's wry weariness when she presented herself to him yet again, this time with grant in hand. For some reason, I'm tempted to guess her favorite Chipmunk is Alvin :lol:. Don't ask me where that came from.
What I'm trying to now keep in mind, and I think it's an important point, is that Haylen's just finally found a way to be where she so desparately wants, and had fought extensively to get, however one might feel about the manner in which she did so. In some ways, her first eps were an establishing preface too, two tidy little appearances that have got people buzzing. Haylen got what she wants. I'm guessing the rest of the team will soon know how she went about it. So... She's in the labs. Now what. In some ways, the real test for Haylen on the show starts now.
Originally posted by Top41:
She feels like a dull combination of Lindsay and Kendall--neither of whom were all that interesting to begin with. And while Haylen might be an attempt to right the wrongs with the other two characters, I don't see why they're so hell bent on having a perky female character on the show. Is that really what's "missing" from CSI: NY? I don't think so. I'm hardly one who sits around and cries for diversity on shows all the time, but I think it's a little nutty how this show is continuing to search for a perky cute sex symbol rather than trying to create a unique character. Danny and Flack are sexy enough--the sex symbol on the show doesn't always need to be a woman. Though, of course, Stella's plenty sexy, but not in that sex kitten way I think they're trying to find. I'm digressing more than a little bit, I know. I'm not still mourning the loss of Aiden years down the road, but damn if she didn't bring something unique and diverse to the table.
Agree. Muchly. Lots. Lots n' lots. And a wee bit more even.
When we first heard Kaylen BeSullicallivan was being added, I really wanted a new character to shake up the show. Can't say this was how I was hoping it would go. My determination to be open minded was a tad deflated when the first details of her character schematic came out. Disappointing. Still wanted to give her a fair shake, but I became admittedly less enthusiastic.
I was hoping for a decently drawn character to come in and be a factor for people to deal with, commenting from outside the team or working within it - and she's now in a position to transition from one to the other. It should be a good set up. And yet, ...she's not hugely compelling. She could still be good.
I don't hafta like any character to think they could be good on/for the show. (Although if Haylen's to be a part of the team, and down the road made a regular, being somehow a 'lil personable could help...)
Characters like Gerrard and Sinclair were written to be abrasive, but I really came to like both, first what they brought to the show, and then, the more we got to see them, in their own rights. She just seems a little ...blank and generic, dime a dozenish. It's early days, yada. But. I'd like more from a potential regular character. I'd like a hint. A hint of more, and more from the writing or her performance than from spoilers. Mebbe the show's deliberately being a little coy, who knows. Haylen's ambition does not give her depth or intrigue. And I want intrigue. I want to be curious. I want to be interested and intrigued whether I like her or not. I'm wanting to, and I'm not.
I admit I actually caught a few pieces of an ep of Miami while making supper last week, the one with the vollyeball electrocutions (
?!
ojeez, it'd been while, ya know? :lol: unless I missed all the parts where it mighta made more sense to me) and I actually thought Eddie Cibrian was pretty good. So was the tech chemist guy he was with. I dunno why NY can't seem to figure some of this shit out. But, they did well enough with Angell. I'm not sold on Haylen yet. I'm all for a new character providing opportunities for the others to respond to. A big reason to bring some one new in. But I was hoping it wouldn't be at the expense of being a decently created character in her own right.
I don't like the pairing, but I will acknowledge it's probably the one thing the show has going for it in terms of "buzz."
Which is kind of sad. Six seasons into the show and that's it? It's hardly the most buzzworthy relationship in TV land, either.
Sad and exasperating. Hugely mondo massively gigantonormously exasperating. But. That's just me.
(BTW, sometimes it's all in the portrayal and the character interaction when it comes to someone touting their own skills - Garcia over on Criminal Minds is not shy about reminding everybody how good she is, but who doesn't love Garcia?
Garcia's great. As is Reid ("yes, I'm a genuis"
) and most of them on CM. And while I was initially dubious of Prentiss, parachuting in unexplained and speaking Arabic etc., she's become a good character, as has Rossi. I can't imagine the show without them now. They'd lost number one on the call sheet. Added
two regulars. A pregnancy incorporated into the show even :lol:
. And CM is still one of the best crime shows on, imo.
Obviously, the writers were considering both Danny and Lindsay when they were planning to make them split, because it would've impacted both characters. And obviously, something was making them think that both characters were best off flying solo.
I wish they'd found a way to let each exist outside the other more, that they weren't so tied. (But again, a canon relationship between two main characters means that it's always somehow present). I wish the show had had the stones to include AB's pregnancy differently, once they'd decided to do so. But they went back to DL. Made for scintillating innovative unconventionally organic screentime last season, and also this season so far, hasn't it.
I'm still astonished at how smoothly Jesse came into the cast of Miami; he was just so unassuming and modest in all his awesomeness, and I think that helped a lot. ....Whereas Haylen's a twenty-something year old who had to force her way onto Mac's radar, and she knew it. She has every reason not to feel secure, as Jesse has to be secure.
(That's Cibrian, right?) Well, here's another observation. Jesse was written with a history. Haylen's written a mystery; we have only what she's said of herself; and what is there to warm to or to go by other than the manner of her interaction with the others. I think that's a factor in how both are regarded.
Plz feel free to correct my recollection, but Ryan and Riley both came in to their shows as mebbe mildly abrasive but strong characters, yes? (I honestly don't really remember). Mebbe there was something about Riley and Ryan that led viewers to want to know more that seems lacking with Haylen? Does anyone yet care what makes her so driven?
She's coming across as a device, a pebble tossed in a pond to cause a splash and some ripples, a very keen, determined, relentless Me pebble in a well established pond. The way she was introduced could be said to be smoothly done, we just don't know why it was done that way. After two appearances I'm not sure I'm interested. Bottom line so far I guess for me is that nothing about her first two forays has led me to say, "yeah, I could see her as a regular character on this show, she'd be a reason to tune in every week..." I'm now trying: "the real test starts now" so I'm awaiting the next installment. Early days, yada. But I am starting to wonder how long it's going to take.
