Grade "Lat 40 47'N/Long 73 58'W"

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Top41, Oct 7, 2009.

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How would you grade Lat 40 47'N/Long 73 58'W?

  1. A+

    6 vote(s)
    8.6%
  2. A

    17 vote(s)
    24.3%
  3. A-

    11 vote(s)
    15.7%
  4. B+

    6 vote(s)
    8.6%
  5. B

    12 vote(s)
    17.1%
  6. B-

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  7. C+

    3 vote(s)
    4.3%
  8. C

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  9. C-

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  10. D+

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  11. D

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  12. D-

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  13. F

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  1. Curiosity

    Curiosity Prime Suspect

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    Grade = B-

    This episode was a step up from the previous two, but not by much.


    First, the case. I give the writers some credit for trying a different approach with this arc – trying to take us into the psyche of the killer and perhaps give him and the case more complexity. They did a good job setting a darker, melancholy tone for the killer’s scenes, but I thought some of the flashes, scene cuts, etc. were a bit overdone. And having the killer somehow become fixated on Mac (visiting the morgue, leaving clues, etc.) also sort of undermined the picture of a tortured, unstable killer who lives somewhat in his own world.

    At this point, I can’t say this case has really grabbed me, at least not in that edge-of-my-seat-can’t-wait-to-see-what-happens-next way, but I am curious to see how it all plays out and if this case ends up having more complexity (and still making sense).


    I also give kudos to TPIC for the Flack arc. They’re doing a good job with the continuity from episode to episode and chronicling his continuing deterioration and increasing isolation in a number of ways. Great job by Eddie Cahill as well. I hope this storyline continues to get focus and has a powerful payoff coming.


    As for Haylen, I’m still ok with her at this point. I wouldn’t say I like her – it’s still a bit early to tell, maybe because she still doesn't seem like a fully-formed character -- but I like how they’ve handled her introduction so far. I think the grant idea was actually a clever way to bring her in without turning her into a blackmailer/schemer and still addressing the issue of budget cuts. And while she was definitely aggressive in pursuing the job, I didn’t see her as being overly pushy…she actually seemed fairly respectful of Mac. Many job recruiters or interviewers probably would give her high marks for showing initiative and resourcefulness.

    I agree it’s sort of odd that she would start working that same day, but leaving aside the show’s obvious timeline issues (and assuming she would pass the standard background checks), I can understand why Mac might jump at the chance to add a seemingly bright employee to his staff, especially if he doesn’t have to pay the wages. And as mentioned before, it could be good for the show to have a character who is somewhat ambitious and doesn’t necessarily get along with everyone. I like the idea of the competition of sorts between her and Adam, and as long as not overdone, it could be interesting. We’ll see how it develops.


    Re: Danny’s arc, I wonder what they are hoping to get out of this storyline. One would expect the writers to use the injury as an opportunity to stretch and develop Danny, to explore the impact on Lindsay and their marriage, or to show the realities of living with a physical disability. But none of that is really happening, and the storyline so far seems too low key and predictable. I do like that we are not getting martyr Lindsay so far, but hopefully there’s something more (development-wise) to come from this arc.


    As for Mac, I agree that having the criminals target Mac specifically is getting a bit old. And I have cringed during the last couple of episodes about some of the dialogue they are giving to GS/Mac. Surely they can do much better. I like the idea that perhaps some of the Super Mac stuff is Mac’s way of dealing with the trauma --- maybe he is the one who reacts by trying to be the best detective he can be and right as many wrongs as possible. However, I also fear they haven’t figured out a compelling storyline for Mac this season, and the nemesis approach is what they’re left with to try and connect him more personally to the cases.


    And poor MK/Stella…. Is she the leading lady or not? So far, they haven’t given her anything much of substance or weight to do. I really hope they have something more compelling planned than we’ve seen in these first three episodes.


    As critical as I am, however, I haven’t given up on the show. IIRC, season five started out a bit slowly as well and still managed to come up with a few gems by the end. I hope for at least that much (and more) during season six.
     
  2. smurfy

    smurfy Civilian

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    Hi, I'm new, and I'll be honest, I don't watch ANY of the CSI's. I used to watch Jericho and when I heard Skeet was on CSI NY, I of course had to watch this episode.

    Now, I did watch the first two episodes of the season to get a feel for CSI NY -- the characters etc, and I must say that they were very boring indeed. I found the dialogue dull and unrealistic and the puns were juvenile and flat. I don't know if all the CSI's are like this as I can not force myself to watch the Miami one as Caruso offends me on every perceptual level.

    The good news, I voted this episode an A. Now, I may be voting with my heart whilst wearing my Skeet-colored glasses, but I at least empathized with the killer and had some kind of attachment to the characters in this episode. It was hard to follow, I'll agree to that one, but it does leave the viewer with many questions -- who was the woman ? Why compasses? Why the fascination with '60s? Vitamin D for what? I just hope the writers actually provide unique and fullfilling answers to these questions and don't leave us hanging or with a big let-down.

    The camera flashing and jerky movements I believe is the director's attempt at showing us the world through the killer's eyes. I think he is either schizophrenic or bi-polar or has a similar mental illness. I also agree to most posts that the woman is his wife (too affectionate to be his mom I think) and that she is an hallucination. I think she has probably died (maybe he killed her by accident or in a rage and that is why he is 'sorry'?) Maybe the notes are really his thoughts ? He shouldn't have tried to make a fast buck and should have writtent the letter? I dunno. Also, I think he is hallucinating because his face is always fine when the director presents the world from the killer's view point, but at the end, as another poster mentioned, his face looked mangled when he removed the sweatshirt and revealed his face. He doesn't see/remember the deformity. I think the injury (burn?) happened when he was with his wife and he was at fault?

    I can see how people were bored with the episode -- I mean, no car chases, explosions, none of the CSI's were injured, but to me this veers from the predictable formulaic writing of most drama's today. I like unique, and this was definitely different and unpredictable. NOw, the awful puns and 'instant' evidence analysis were predicatble and I find highly annoying. I mean, the spectrometer thing tells you that the molecule is from a rare orchid in like 3 seconds???? Huh? I'm sure in 'real life' that would take hours, if not weeks. Whatever. I guess tv isn't real life.....I'll get past it.

    I'm looking forward to the compass killer arc because of Skeet (and Josie Davis was great as his wife) but I doubt I will continue to watch past that.
     
  3. Kreguba

    Kreguba Witness

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    Hi Smurfy, and welcome to the forum. If you're looking to become better acquainted with the series, Spike TV is constantly rerunning the older episodes of CSI and CSI:NY. TNT is also running CSI:NY as well (if you're from America. I'm not sure about reruns in other countries).

    It's actually not that common for an episode to have car chases, explosions, or serious injuries. That's just not how CSI does things. Infact many of the, IMHO, best episodes don't have any of that.

    As for the mass spec... for the sake of keeping the story moving, things like results and such are rushed. It's not real life, but it's something that you have to look past for TV's sake. But get used to getting past things, continuinty isn't TPTB strong point. ;)
     
  4. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Yeah, it doesn't give anyone free pass to brag or show off, but in cases where their ability to perform is kind of being questioned (by the boss, by older coworkers, etc), I can totally understand how someone would feel the need to prove themselves or try hard to be taken seriously.

    Well, I was actually talking about Danny, but Officer Murphy's also a good example. Danny was the only one giving her the not-taking-you-seriously treatment (ie, "I'll process the note, since there might be something on it"; "Make sure you call him 'sir'", etc.), so I could give her credit for feeling like she needed to show him up. She's been bossy with Adam, but unless I'm missing an episode, I don't remember her actively trying to show him up.

    Yeah -- since it was Adam's job she seemed to be hunting, I wasn't exactly happy with the implication either :lol:, but I could still admire her nerve. I guess I found it refreshingly real, honestly. I know it's always nice to see Mac handpick his team himself, but it was kind of bugging me that the job seemingly fell into everyone's lap, without them having to go look for it (Stella's been working with Mac for ages; Mac handpicked Danny right out of police academy; Lindsay happened to be on Mac's radar right when he was looking for a quick replacement for Aiden; Hawkes also worked with Mac for ages before he actually became a CSI, thus guaranteeing him the job...).

    It is! Especially the way they brought him into the show (what with shirtless scenes and Die Hard nicknames and acrobatic skills like whoa), I was a little worried; but he's very unassuming nevertheless.

    Or avoid discussing it at all...which would've been both the easy and (if they really didn't like her performance) honest response. It's not like they spent much time discussing any other character interactions, except for mentioning how easily Marlee Matlin and Gary Sinise seemed to play off of each other.

    Yeah, I'm so not convinced of that. Since the one time Lindsay had a storyline that at first seemed separate from Danny, realistic or not it still left most Lindsay and/or DL fans sympathetic and supportive of her character and wanting to know more; regardless of what her behaviour might've been doing to the other half of DL. And because they were about to pull away from it in S5 (and since I've heard no concurrent rumor that they were also planning to kick Belknap off the show at the same time, I'd assume they had something planned for her character too). And because there are at least five threads worth of Lindsay fans even on this site complaining to TPTB about giving Lindsay something to do other than Danny; whether it's a friendship with Stella, or a case to solve on her own, or a storyline where she messes up and has to fix it, or anything. DL being popular doesn't automatically make it the basis of Lindsay's fanbase...and from what I've seen here the past few days, even DL fans are pretty sick of seeing Lindsay demoted to nothing except Danny's love interest. The pairing is a detriment to both.

    Fair enough, only it also doesn't explain the near-S5-decision-to-split-DL (the part about Anna sucking, but bringing in the necessary demo audience):lol:

    Also, I find it interesting that the recent influx of DL in the new season is what's essentially made Lindsay's character suddenly more tolerable to some non-fans...whereas the opinion of most Lindsay-fans on her character doesn't seem to have changed one bit. Any more than it changed in S4, or in S3. I really have to say, it doesn't seem like Lindsay's orbit around Danny is what's drawing her fans (and whatever percentage of the demo-audience they may represent) to the show.

    I'm tempted to buy a pet, if only to call it Haylen and see if it'll actually respond :lol: I just don't see why Kaye Sullivan wouldn't have worked. And yeah, it's only fair to wait for Haylen to evolve; I think right now, her flaws are the best hope for her character being taken in an interesting direction (I mean, she's a little on the ruthless side, imo, and it'd be more than interesting to see that come into play on purpose).

    ETA:

    I think I agree on how many questions the episode left us with -- this was the good part of it being slow to start, because we weren't getting the ending yet, and we're at least left hanging with the idea that the ending will be worth it (or so I hope, too!). There's thankfully no chance of being disappointed with who the killer is, since we know who he is already, and as far as his motive...well, I think they were depicting him as schizophrenic too, and definitely reluctant with what he was doing, so while it seems like he's got a plan, it doesn't really look like he's on some sort of mission (like the Taxi killer in season 4). Nor is he just randomly killing girls for a good time (re Clay Dobson). Still pretty much hoping, but anything between those two extremes sounds like it could be good.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2009
  5. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    haha, i'm glad i'm not the only one that thought that....
     
  6. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Welcome to the forum, smurfy! Glad Skeet brought you to the show, and that you decided to sign up here.

    Skeet was very good, and the episode did raise some interesting questions. Like you, I'm hoping the payoff is a good one.


    To me, that kind of suggests the episode is a failure. You're the exact reason they spent the big bucks to cast Skeet Ulrich in the role--in the hopes of pulling in new viewers. If those new viewers are coming to watch the guest star but ultimately dismissing the show as middling or boring, that's where the problem lies.

    Realistically, anyone with an ounce of real world experience or savvy knows that's not the way to get taken seriously at work. The way to get taken seriously at work is to step up to the plate and show you're a team player--not encroach on the turf of the existing team members.

    Danny played a joke on her the first day--I think he would have done that to any newbie. And her racing through evidence to one-up him hardly made her look professional or particularly capable--just competitive. Pouting about being sent away from a crime scene to do legitimate work didn't make her look particularly credible either.

    It's interesting to have someone there who really wants to work for the lab--the same was kind of true of Ryan on Miami, though. It's not particularly fresh or interesting.

    I know, ha! I was all prepared for a cocky "I'm the new stud of the show" type, but he's really down-to-earth. Not that I was looking to or expecting to hate him, but I had my suspicions about what kind of character he would be, and was pleasantly surprised to find I was wrong.

    "Silent Night" was possibly her worst performance to date. I haven't listened to that commentary--what exactly was said?

    So why didn't the storyline stay separate from DL?

    I'm sure they did. But the planned separation makes me think they registered the damage the pairing was doing to Danny's character. Danny's not a character that is particularly interesting when he's happy. That probably sounds mean, but it's true. That's not true of all characters--I just watched The Office with the wedding of Jim and Pam, and found it a terrific episode (and development) for both characters. But CSI: NY isn't the office, and Danny and Lindsay aren't Jim and Pam.

    Yeah, but I bet most of those people would be mighty sad if DL broke up. I still see very few fans of Lindsay who aren't also fans of DL. Not a criticism--and also something I know doesn't apply to you. But at the same time, I've also seen DL fans who feel the almighty "canon" status has ruined the pairing.

    More drama. I doubt the split was intended to be permanent, though maybe. Again, the more interesting and better actor of the pair isn't all that exciting when he's shiny and happy. I don't think it's a coincidence that Danny was the one shot in the bar--though I do think it's interesting (and to be honest, I'm a little glad about it) that Flack is the one getting the majority of the angst.

    Really? There's no difference in the way she's treating Danny now than she did at the end of season four? I don't think we've ever seen her be really supportive of him or anyone else before. That says change to me. Regardless, I think what's making her more tolerable is that they're not handing Anna any really dramatic scenes to bungle.

    I doubt Anna has much to do with drawing any significant percentage of average viewers to the show. Whereas DL, for better or worse, generates buzz (on sites like Ask Ausiello and Watch with Kristin) and got the show a TV Guide cover. I don't like the pairing, but I will acknowledge it's probably the one thing the show has going for it in terms of "buzz."
     
  7. Faylinn

    Faylinn Adam Fangirl Super Moderator

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    Which is kind of sad. :shifty: Six seasons into the show and that's it? It's hardly the most buzzworthy relationship in TV land, either.

    Speaking of Jesse on Miami - I really like him so far. I think his introduction is a nice contrast to Haylen's. He's made himself useful by doing his job and doing it well. (The hostage episode was a bit dramatic, but this is CSI: Miami after all - and ultimately it seemed to be about Horatio more than Jesse. Jesse was cool and clever under pressure, but Horatio saved the day.)

    I also loved his response to the "Die Hard" nickname in this week's episode and the way he kind of dismissed his own sex appeal when Natalia asked if he felt young and hot and he said "hardly" (or something similar). Eddie Cibrian is a really good addition to the show IMO (as is Omar Benson Miller, for that matter :D), and I wish Sarah's addition to NY had been as smooth and not divisive. I'm still going to give Haylen the benefit of the doubt, but she only gets so many chances to impress me - her first two appearances didn't do it even though I wanted so bad for her to be awesome.

    (BTW, sometimes it's all in the portrayal and the character interaction when it comes to someone touting their own skills - Garcia over on Criminal Minds is not shy about reminding everybody how good she is, but who doesn't love Garcia? If anything, I wish Haylen had been a lot more like Garcia than a Mary Sue - I was hoping the same thing when Kendall was added, and I was disappointed back then.)
     
  8. Robin

    Robin Prime Suspect

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    Really enjoyed this episode.

    "It's time to fold" :lol:

    Not sure if I like Haylen. She's a bit too pushy and comes across as creepy in a not so cool way.

    Not liking insecure Adam.

    Lucy got a lot of mention.

    Can't wait to find out more about this killer and why he's killing these people. Maybe it has something to do with the pen pal program. Maybe he's still miffed for being pen dumped when he was a kid.

    The retro house was weird. Reminded me of a mix of my grandparent's and some other relative's house in a way, from when I was a kid.
     
  9. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    In other words, try to prove yourself.

    True, but I don't think trying to prove yourself automatically equates to stepping on the toes of any other team member; and to be honest, I've seen very little of this with any of the new female characters we've been discussing (don't remember Riley or Lindsay ever doing that, and while Haylen was going after Adam, she did indicate that that wasn't her intention).

    How ambiguously professional she came off is totally debatable, but I thought I was pointing out the times I remember Lindsay specifically trying to show up anyone at work. Both times were with people who seemed to think she couldn't do her job, and she showed them she could. (Not seeing how "Manhattan Manhunt" comes into this, though, she wasn't trying to show up Mac or anyone else in that episode). I don't know whether or not Danny would play that kind of joke with any other newbie -- he didn't with Hawkes, didn't with Angell, hasn't yet with Haylen, and even while he was hazing Adam in his early days, I don't remember him ever trying to make Adam look bad in front of Mac. Maybe he'd've done it to any other newbie who was replacing Aiden. Fair enough, I don't think it was personal either; but that seems to be beside the point. Officer Murphy's attitude didn't seem personal either, but it still sent a similar message.

    Right, I forgot about Ryan's introduction (only seen that episode once
    :p). Yeah, it's not the most original thing they've ever come up with -- at least, not in the CSI-franchise, if in NY. But I still found it more interesting than the typical alternative.

    Oooh, I wish this had been asked sooner, 'cause I don't have my S3 dvd-set with me now and I don't want to risk misquoting. But if there's anyone who does have an S3-dvd set, both Lenkov and Sam Humphrey (I think) were commenting on Anna Belknap's performance during the crying scene and the scene where Lindsay and Stella were talking at the end. The gist was the same during both commentaries, but I'm specifically remembering the "Anna did great" comment being from that last scene. Otherwise, I might have to get back to you on this.

    Good question ;) But I'm not seeing how it makes the fans' interest during the storyline less valid, just because the show saw fit to have said storyline end with Danny and Lindsay's shacking up. I saw very, very few Lindsay or DL fans lash out at Lindsay during S3, even though she was "the one keeping DL apart", so I think it's a fair assumption to say that it was the storyline they were interested in, not how quickly DL would be returning.

    Danny wasn't happy when he was in the relationship with Lindsay, if you ask me. And if the writers/producers really view Lindsay's character as contingent on DL as you say, I can't see how her character wouldn't have been a, if not the major factor considered when planning the separation. Especially since she'd have been the one who would've probably carried most of the separation drama (I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Danny didn't seem at all affected by the breakup until he suddenly wanted to get back together). Obviously, the writers were considering both Danny and Lindsay when they were planning to make them split, because it would've impacted both characters. And obviously, something was making them think that both characters were best off flying solo.

    Yeah...but I have to admit, when speaking of the Lindsay-fans who are also DL-fans, I still don't completely understand the thought process there. Stella fans who are also Smacked fans...love Stella because she's Stella, and that's valid. Danny (or Flack) fans who are also Danny/Flack fans (or just fans of the D/F friendship) love Danny and Flack because they're Danny and Flack, and that's valid. Lindsay fans who are also DL fans ...love Lindsay because they secretly want to be her and are in lurve with Danny? I don't get that. On the other message boards I frequent (and heck, on the Lindsay thread here), there usually is a majority of DL fans. I still go weeks on those threads without touching on the subject of Danny or DL. It's how the conversations manage to stay peaceful, if you ask me :lol: Most of the DL fans I've met have plenty to say on the subject of Lindsay, and tons of insights on, or hopes for her character.

    If Danny and Flack had a serious falling out, I'm sure plenty of people here would be a little more than sad. If Mac hooked up with Peyton again (or *cough* Stella/Adam became canon), plenty Smacked fans would be a little more than pissed. That wouldn't make their love for Stella/Danny/Flack/Mac/etc diminish in the least, and no one would question that. Why would DL-fans getting crushed over the breakup of DL somehow mean they're only in it for Danny? DL was basically non-existent in S3 and barely present in S4 until they split up. Lindsay's fanbase, so far as I've seen anyway, doesn't seem to have radically changed in the interim. And seeing how I have yet to find a DL fan who jumped ship to Danny/Rikki (trust me, I have been looking hard :p) when Danny's interest seemed to change, I'm really not getting the idea that DL is all about Danny for even the majority of its fans.

    Split still would've meant that DL wouldn't have been together, potentially damaging the show's hold on their target demographic if that's what TPTB felt said target demographic depended on. It still seems like it would've been a risky move, that they wouldn't have taken if they didn't have some idea that it would fly. (Meaning that Anna could still bring in the target demographic without her character being attached to Danny -- if they felt it was Carmine bringing in that demographic, they probably wouldn't have started the DL storyline to begin with.)

    Totally agree that Danny is more interesting when he's angsting. But I don't think it's DL drama that brings in fans of that pairing -- when I'm discussing DL with its fans, the one thing we ever seem to agree on is that they're as sick of the drama as I am of having to watch and/or chart it.

    Sadly, I'm left wondering if that's the reason Danny's getting less of the angst this season.

    Oh no, it's definitely change. In my personal opinion, it's shown growth. And I've seen reactions ranging from "I'm so proud of her" (lol, mine) to "omg, she's sooo cute" regarding these last few episodes, but as far as an "wow, she's so much better now" reaction goes -- I haven't really seen anything like that from people who were Lindsay fans before S6. Anymore than I really saw a "how could she do that?" reaction from her fans in S4 or S3. Opinion seems to remain the same regardless of how she's treating Danny. The diner flashback in "Epilogue" seemed pretty dramatic to me, but that's just me :lol:

    No kidding :scream: Especially since a lot seems to get sacrificed, for the sake of generating this buzz. And Ross/Rachel did it so much better, in terms of buzzworthy TV-land relationships. Hell, Buffy/Spike did it better :shifty:

    I'm still astonished at how smoothly Jesse came into the cast of Miami; he was just so unassuming and modest in all his awesomeness, and I think that helped a lot. But in Haylen/Sarah's defense, I'm wondering how much of the contrast might have to do with the fact that Jesse's not only an experienced former LAPD officer, but also a former MDPD officer who used to work closely with Horatio (and possibly others in the lab). He's not cocky or self-satisfied in the least, but he's comfortably modest when it comes to himself and his position. Whereas Haylen's a twenty-something year old who had to force her way onto Mac's radar, and she knew it. She has every reason not to feel secure, as Jesse has to be secure.

    Although I have no way to compare Walter/Omar's smooth transition to Haylen's not-so-smooth one. Walter was just cool, period.:p


    Hoping this was not embarassingly long ....
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2009
  10. Curiosity

    Curiosity Prime Suspect

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    Some of my thinking is influenced by that interview with PV -- the one where she talks about Mac having to be stronger than his usual self this season and needing to be the emotional foundation for the others who are dealing with losses. Sounds a bit like he might be too busy saving everyone else to have (or deal with) issues of his own. But it's early days and that certainly could change over the course of the season.
     
  11. Carrieattheprom

    Carrieattheprom Lab Technician

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    I thought that after mac said he's think about hiring Hayden that it meant she would be hired in the next episode. I was a bit floored to see her hired in the same episode. That was just too abrupt for me.
     
  12. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    ^ it was a little wasn't it? but i got the distinct impression it was more of a trial than an outright hiring - didn't hawkes say every 2nd week or something like that, which is very very part time, even for a freebie!

    yeah, i agree, that makes a lot of sense - it's almost like mac knows he *has* to be the strong one, even more than normal, at the moment or the rest of the team would just lose it. however, i think his apparent strength is quite superficial in this case, it's obvious (to me at least!) that he's actually not dealing with everything as well as he's pretending to. i really hope that's the case, not in a mean way but as i said earlier, a mac crash would be great tv.
     
  13. GregNickRyanFan

    GregNickRyanFan Holographic Moderator Moderator

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    First of all, let me say this before I forget again (like I did in my original post in this thread): What the heck is up with that funky episode title? :lol: Were they going for the Guiness book of records for longest episode title? :lol:

    Secondly, on the smug new character thing- I think females fall into this trap more often than men because for some writers, the only way they are able to write a female character as strong is by making them overly confident, which makes them appear egotistical (which grates on people's nerves lol). There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone being confident of themselves/their abilities, but sometimes it can be taken a little too far. But why this is the only way they know how to show women as strong, I don't know. Whereas with men, all they have to do to show them as strong is having their bulging muscles show, have them lift something abnormally heavy, kick in a dozen doors or just simply grabbing someone by the collar and talking in that "tough guy- I'm gonna kick the stuffing out of you if you don't answer my question" voice. :lol: Or in Jesse's case, have him climb up a lifeguard tower without breaking a sweat. :lol:
     
  14. Carrieattheprom

    Carrieattheprom Lab Technician

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    After an episode last week where the killer was sending messages to Mac, we get another episode with the killer sending messages to the lab. How many episodes in past seasons have also covered this ground? It's starting to get a little repetetive.

    Poor Adam! I know Mac is busy and everything, but given how Hayden and Adam met(and Mac was a witness to this meeting) shouldn't he have at least given Adam a head's up, considering those two were bound to run into each other at some point?

    I feel so bad for Flack! That man is headed for a crash landing. Unfortunately, that might be the only way to get him to admit he needs help.

    I liked seeing Danny doing exercises to prepare for physical therapy. I'm glad he's not going for the curl up in a corner and die approach. Since he said his main motivation was Lucy, it makes me wonder how he would be handling this if he and Lindsay had never gotten together.

    Compass Killer is creepy and also somewhat sympathetic. I agree with the others who said that that woman is probably a hallucination of a real person he had known. One that ties in to his obsession with the past.
     
  15. Elwood21

    Elwood21 Pathologist

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    Geez. Disappear for a wee bit and ya miss all sorts of things. Like another spoiler thread starting. (That's at least twice :lol:). And a ton in here. Be warned. Typical longishness to follow.

    True about Danny.

    I'll agree neither Cliff nor Mac (or even Stella) want to push just yet, though of those three, I'd have thought Stella would. I'm not sure in Mac's case it stems from feeling they're not close enough to talk. They're not tight like Flack and Danny, but Mac is the kind of friend who will stop by your desk at the end of a trying IAB ordeal to offer to commiserate over watching the Rangers game at a bar even if not a huge hockey fan. (I swear I'm not making that up. Am I? :lol: Hope not. Why can't we have more Mac tidbits like that, than MadMac the Enforcer of Justice? Need a soapbox? There's an app for that :lol:. And, apparently, a Mac for that :p ). I think it would also be a little odd for Mac to have confided in Flack about Peyton staying in London, for example, if he hadn't felt they were friends enough to do so. Mac doesn't exactly do casual conversation. Except mebbe to explain the non-return of a previous season's character with whom he'd been in a relationship :p. But. They coulda had that scene with Stella or Sheldon. Thought it was nice choice to have it with Flack.

    I do disagree with something said elsewhere that Mac's got his head in the sand. I think he knows Don's Not Fine. He's prodded Don gently, possibly in part just to let him know he's there, with essentially predictable results. I could read Mac as wanting to give Flack the space and time to deal, as he knew he himself had needed. I think Stella and Mac were each nudging each other a little to see if they were observing the same things, perhaps wondering at what point they ought to say something or approach Don more overtly. And at that point, it seemed like both saw it as more an "I'm concerned" moment rather than a "we need to do something" one. My guess is the show will make the slide far worse before any one of them helps him get Better. Mac likely sees a parallel between himself and Don, and until things fall off the rails, will give Flack the credit and gesture of at least taking him at his word, while still keeping a watchful eye. I think it was evident in Epilogue that Mac read Flack returning from Leave early as saying he didn't have a whole lot else to hold onto other than the Job, and Mac knows what that's like.

    From the moment he said "I'm fine" in Pay Up, we all knew Flack wasn't, but who's gonna be the first to outright say so. It could actually be Sythe, calling him a screw up, it could be Terence. It could be someone not as close to him finally calling a spade a spade, whereas those who are closer, for the moment, are handling him with kid gloves. Interesting, it is interesting. :p

    As for Danny/Flack, I do wonder if we'll see them paired again before both paths to recovery are largely done, or if either will play a part in the other's. BTW, is that Pay Up "I'm Fine" actually the last exchange between Danny and Flack? (before the group scene at the bar anyways). And no, I don't think there's been anything this season I can recall.

    Mebbe I'm not recalling the scene clearly :confused:, but I'd had it in my head Mac had said Haylen was new and "observing?" ...then he let her into the process as a kind of teaching opportunity, complete to asking her how she'd theoretically proceed. Not necessarily a dissimilar dynamic he'd had with Lindsay or Aiden at various points.

    I think Haylen's definitely supposed to come off as forward, pushy, determined, keen, etc. I think she's supposed to be a figure that the others can play off of. She's not a team player, or apparently on any team at all (do crime scene kleen up techs really work solo? I'm asking, I don't know. Seems a little odd to me though). It's been set up that her previous numerous forays into the Labs were rebuffed, and that she's willing to do Whatever It Takes (and damn the cost) to keep at it; additionally, she's only there part-time, and on a grant, not exactly what I'd call wholly integrated into the fold. Doesn't sound like a set up for a Warm Welcome to be expected. As annoying as she may be, and as predictable as a character as she seems, I do think it's a dynamic the show's deliberately pursuing. I hope it's deliberate; if she's actually meant to be a sympathetic little dear trying to carve her way in the big bad world, there's a serious discrepancy between intent and realization :lol:. Mebbe they'll actually have the stones to keep her as an incredibly ambitious, if also a default stunningly intelligent & gifted young woman, who also has a talent for getting up one's nose and is not looking for friends, but who will eventually wow and win everyone and prove her merit regardless. Goody. Exciting either way, no? :p

    Possible they may be setting up to have her Secret be her more humanizing factor down the road, also serving to somehow "explain" her, whether it's a mollifying take or something else entirely. That Sekrit will probably be a tipping point for her portrayal and integration; whether favorable or not. Right now, only known because of spoilers, it's a potential unspoken agenda driving her, or at least a motivation beyond pursuing a Dream Job.

    :lol:. I'm not much liking how Mac's often been used. The righteousness and scenarios written to showcase it are becoming a little one note, and is starting to feel a waste of a great actor and character. I hope they change it up and give him better than relegating him to that alone. Mac is a more complicated character than that, and we have gotten to see more facets of him. I'd like to see some of that return. I do appreciate the effort made and what we learned of his past in the second ep, but present tense I'd love more shading too.

    :lol:. I agree, Danny is not as interesting as he used to be. The past few seasons, especially where DL are concerned, have not been so kind to him either. As for Monroe. Given she's in every ep, and Haylen is not, I think it'll take a little more than what we've seen to oust Montana from that slot for me :lol:.

    Grissom also managed to be a moral criminalist, which is Mac's bag, the Moral Man in an Immoral City. If they don't want to muddy him up, I'd like to see at least what bearing the weight of it means.

    There does seem a certain prevalence within procedural and crime shows to have an ongoing recurring nemesis in addition to their more typical weekly rollover of perpdom :p; some notion seems to have risen that ongoing hunts are somehow requisite to keep viewers engaged, just in case the episodic plots don't keep us tuning in. Nothing new I suppose. But a sudden plethora to be sure :p.

    Seems they're just going for ways to up the characters' personal stakes. While I like that NY's delving into characters, I hope the cases don't suffer becoming too overly contrived as platforms. A difficult & delicate balance I imagine.

    If he were having problems, it would be nice to have some teeny tiny hint that he's struggling while still being as driven as ever. Something to indicate it is taking a toll in some way, to color our understanding of his behaviour if that's the case.

    Even if it's not tied into the larger Aftermath scheme of things, how about another instance as in S5's Enough, when he realized he'd made a promise he couldn't keep to a victim, and she suffered further for circumstances that followed. I don't know that I need to quite see an Icarus moment, but a few instances of being unable to "Fix" everything would be nice.

    :lol:. Which is another reason why I hope the writers start to use him & their plots better. (He's not the only one who's Got Mail; Stella got the rat, making that quite personal, and puzzle pieces on her car, and other Drew stuff etc).

    I agree she's supposed to seem pushy right now. As for endearing. :lol:. All IMO, but lemme give you a comparison. The most relevant I can currently think of, a character like Hodges on CSI has something about him, despite/because of certain tendencies and traits, that makes him kinda endearing, if one can put it that way :lol:. (A few others: Jane, on the Mentalist, House, Mary on In Plain Sight, and Ziva on NCIS. And with those last two I've managed to include some women into the list. Ha. Most of those are leads, yes. Which is partly why Hodges was first to mind, in addition to his traits). Haylen, as yet, to me, is not possessing qualities and characteristics I find "endearing" :lol:.

    She gave off the impression that what she brings equals or outweighs anything she's yet to learn. That whole booksmart brilliance, and with a hint of a chip on her shoulder grown from shovelling after others without due recognition of her true brilliance so far denied opportunity to shine, with many potential arcs for growth and downfall. I'm just tossing out ideas here... :p. It is her secret that has me wary in addition to her introduction. With someone like Riley (and I didn't catch many eps last season mind you) there seemed a depth to her, and I trusted she was in it for the Job, if also for herself; she also at least gave off an awareness of how she was coming across, even if she didn't wholly care.

    To her credit, Haylen does seem to have some of that awareness, but with some additional air of entitlement, in a bubble unpopped despite Mac's wry weariness when she presented herself to him yet again, this time with grant in hand. For some reason, I'm tempted to guess her favorite Chipmunk is Alvin :lol:. Don't ask me where that came from. :p

    What I'm trying to now keep in mind, and I think it's an important point, is that Haylen's just finally found a way to be where she so desparately wants, and had fought extensively to get, however one might feel about the manner in which she did so. In some ways, her first eps were an establishing preface too, two tidy little appearances that have got people buzzing. Haylen got what she wants. I'm guessing the rest of the team will soon know how she went about it. So... She's in the labs. Now what. In some ways, the real test for Haylen on the show starts now.

    Agree. Muchly. Lots. Lots n' lots. And a wee bit more even. :p

    When we first heard Kaylen BeSullicallivan was being added, I really wanted a new character to shake up the show. Can't say this was how I was hoping it would go. My determination to be open minded was a tad deflated when the first details of her character schematic came out. Disappointing. Still wanted to give her a fair shake, but I became admittedly less enthusiastic.

    I was hoping for a decently drawn character to come in and be a factor for people to deal with, commenting from outside the team or working within it - and she's now in a position to transition from one to the other. It should be a good set up. And yet, ...she's not hugely compelling. She could still be good.

    I don't hafta like any character to think they could be good on/for the show. (Although if Haylen's to be a part of the team, and down the road made a regular, being somehow a 'lil personable could help...)

    Characters like Gerrard and Sinclair were written to be abrasive, but I really came to like both, first what they brought to the show, and then, the more we got to see them, in their own rights. She just seems a little ...blank and generic, dime a dozenish. It's early days, yada. But. I'd like more from a potential regular character. I'd like a hint. A hint of more, and more from the writing or her performance than from spoilers. Mebbe the show's deliberately being a little coy, who knows. Haylen's ambition does not give her depth or intrigue. And I want intrigue. I want to be curious. I want to be interested and intrigued whether I like her or not. I'm wanting to, and I'm not.

    I admit I actually caught a few pieces of an ep of Miami while making supper last week, the one with the vollyeball electrocutions (?!:rolleyes::pojeez, it'd been while, ya know? :lol: unless I missed all the parts where it mighta made more sense to me) and I actually thought Eddie Cibrian was pretty good. So was the tech chemist guy he was with. I dunno why NY can't seem to figure some of this shit out. But, they did well enough with Angell. I'm not sold on Haylen yet. I'm all for a new character providing opportunities for the others to respond to. A big reason to bring some one new in. But I was hoping it wouldn't be at the expense of being a decently created character in her own right.

    Sad and exasperating. Hugely mondo massively gigantonormously exasperating. But. That's just me.

    Garcia's great. As is Reid ("yes, I'm a genuis" :p) and most of them on CM. And while I was initially dubious of Prentiss, parachuting in unexplained and speaking Arabic etc., she's become a good character, as has Rossi. I can't imagine the show without them now. They'd lost number one on the call sheet. Added two regulars. A pregnancy incorporated into the show even :lol::p. And CM is still one of the best crime shows on, imo.

    I wish they'd found a way to let each exist outside the other more, that they weren't so tied. (But again, a canon relationship between two main characters means that it's always somehow present). I wish the show had had the stones to include AB's pregnancy differently, once they'd decided to do so. But they went back to DL. Made for scintillating innovative unconventionally organic screentime last season, and also this season so far, hasn't it.

    (That's Cibrian, right?) Well, here's another observation. Jesse was written with a history. Haylen's written a mystery; we have only what she's said of herself; and what is there to warm to or to go by other than the manner of her interaction with the others. I think that's a factor in how both are regarded.

    Plz feel free to correct my recollection, but Ryan and Riley both came in to their shows as mebbe mildly abrasive but strong characters, yes? (I honestly don't really remember). Mebbe there was something about Riley and Ryan that led viewers to want to know more that seems lacking with Haylen? Does anyone yet care what makes her so driven?

    She's coming across as a device, a pebble tossed in a pond to cause a splash and some ripples, a very keen, determined, relentless Me pebble in a well established pond. The way she was introduced could be said to be smoothly done, we just don't know why it was done that way. After two appearances I'm not sure I'm interested. Bottom line so far I guess for me is that nothing about her first two forays has led me to say, "yeah, I could see her as a regular character on this show, she'd be a reason to tune in every week..." I'm now trying: "the real test starts now" so I'm awaiting the next installment. Early days, yada. But I am starting to wonder how long it's going to take.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009

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