Originally Posted by Top41:
Certainly not true of Riley, no. With Haylen and Lindsay there is/was an "I'm better than you" smugness. That's not appealing on any character, male or female.
No, it's not an appealing trait with anyone -- even though we've seen it on all the characters in this show at least twice -- but none of those three new females ever really came off that way to me from the very beginning. Riley was a bit of a show-off, I thought, but it didn't seem like she was willing to step over anyone to show off. Neither did Lindsay (I think the closest she ever came to actual "I'm better than you" smugness was with people who were sending the message that
they thought they were better than her; and even then she just kind of proved them wrong, rather than tried to step on their toes). And Haylen, definitely self-confident (to say the least) never gave me the impression that she thought she could, or was, doing the job better than Adam or anyone else.
She was questioning Mac's decision and making it personal, wasn't she?
But she went back to the lab and did her job, didn't she? And didn't spend the time griping about how Mac was an ineffective boss or saying she could do things so much better than anyone else. I don't think being upset over Mac's decision is the same as thinking she's all that.
I think he probably would have done it to anyone replacing Aiden, yeah. But Danny is a tease--he teased Adam, he and Hawkes made cracks about Angell on her first day ("Angell gets her wings"), he's made fun of Hawkes, too. As for Haylen, he hasn't even met her that we know of, so how could he play a joke on her?
Not to mention, Danny not seeming in joking spirits lately.
I know Danny is a tease; and not that it's not funny to watch :lol: But I don't see how that somehow makes it okay when
his jokes take that "I'm better than you" turn with the new people. I know he hasn't met/teased Haylen -- that's why I added the 'yet'; although I'm not too sure we'll be seeing much teasing from him anytime soon. He was a little harsh with Adam in the beginning, but again, he never brought Mac into it. Calling Hawkes "Doc" isn't exactly harsh. ("Doc" is a nod to Sheldon's medical skills. "Montana" -- at least, back in early S2 -- was more a nod to his thinking that Lindsay belonged back there.) Hawkes made the Angell joke...I think Danny said something like "Benson took off the training wheels?"; no involving Angell's boss in the teasing, no assuming that she couldn't do her job.
I'll have to listen to that commentary at some point. She was so bad in that episode. Maybe she's been decent in others--I'll admit she's not always terrible, and has given good performances before. But the crying and the yelling at Stella in that episode was laughable.
"Silent Night" wasn't exactly my favourite episode either, though not because I had a huge problem with Anna Belknap's acting. But yeah, it was an interesting commentary...as soon as I get hold of my S3-set, I'll try putting up a transcript for those two scenes. It was Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend, though, so I'm up at my parents' place. I left the dvd-set back home :brickwall:
DL never left, though. It was there in LRC, Oedipus Hex, Sweet Sixteen (when he asked about her snakebite), The Lying Game, and of course, Sleight out of Hand. It wasn't in Silent Night... and that's about it. DL has always, always been a part of the Lindsay character, since her first introduction in Zoo York.
Not that I don't agree. But DL has also been mentioned (or hinted at) in less than half of the total episodes Lindsay's been in. Up until S5, it'd be very easy to get to know/like her without even being aware she's in a love-storyline with Danny.
And simply hinting at DL wouldn't have meant anything in terms of their being together during Lindsay's arc -- they were still apart because of her. Like they were from Child's Play onwards, only because of Danny (and the DL scenes in CP, PwM, DOA for a Day, RND, LWFM, PF, etc. didn't exactly save Danny from being run over the coals by many DL fans for keeping DL apart; regardless of his storyline). If that's all the DL fans were interested in, DL being together, I think we'd've seen a little more anger directed toward Lindsay during her storyline.
It seems like outside of DL, the character's kind of a lost cause--what storyline has she ever really had outside of DL? But what drama? The drama was in season four. There was nothing in the beginning of season five, most likely because they were supposed to be done (whether it be permanently or for the time being, who knows).
If TPTB had followed through with the original plans, I don't see how they would've made D and L -- or L, at least -- move on without acknowledging what had happened in S4. (I can't see how they would've written a moving-on storyline otherwise.)
But regardless, Lindsay was clearly about to have a storyline outside of DL in S5...and if the character was such a lost cause, why would TPTB have bothered with that route? And her fans have been crying for years, from what I've seen, for her to have a storyline outside of DL. TPTB not listening doesn't somehow invalidate the wishes of the Lindsay-fans.
Yeah, and her reaction was laughable. But they were married at that point--what choice did the writers have? Her reaction had to be shown. Luckily she was better in the rest of the episode.
That's not making much sense to me, seeing as longer parts of the episode were at least as emotion-filled (AB-performance-wise) as that flashback scene. But I disagree about the flashback scene, of course. And they've given her way too many mini-dramatic scenes in the last couple of years (RND-monologue; the I'm-pregnant scene; the birth-scene from "Greater Good") to make me think they wouldn't also disagree. Maybe there's a difference between her acting just not being good, and her acting just not working for everyone.
But only one of them has ever really flown solo before. And when he flies solo, he's an interesting, complex ball of angst. She's a glorified lab rat.
So what? (About only Danny ever flying solo before.) All characters start somewhere. If TPTB really felt that DL was the only thing that could ever work for Lindsay story-wise, I don't see why they would've been planning to risk her flying solo. I also don't see how they would've risked it without planning something great for her, considering how many of the DL fans seem to be there for her alone.
Also, I doubt Danny's being a field-agent (in comparison to Lindsay's being a comparative lab rat...like, say, Adam) is what makes him either interesting or complex as a solo character.
That's certainly been more true recently, but I remember as recently as midway through last season, you couldn't read a thread about Lindsay here or elsewhere and not have Danny or the relationship mentioned. It's canon now--people can stop sweating and worrying about it and hope Lindsay will actually be developed as a character. And maybe she will--I just don't think there's much there. She's a cliche, and she's never really risen above that.
That's like saying you can't read a Stella thread (here, anyway, don't know much about anywhere else) without having Mac mentioned; which you can't. And I know for a fact that you're very interested in Flack and Danny separately, but a ton of your posts are always mentioning your hopes that we'll see Flack and Danny bonding/being there for each other/protecting each other/etc; and it's the same for many others. A character's relationships is a huge part of the character him/herself, and for every other character on this show it's okay to have more than a passing interest in said character's relationships. I may not like DL myself, but I guess I don't see why it should be different for its (and Lindsay's) fans, just because TPTB seem to have focused on that relationship.
She is a cliche, and I agree, storywise they haven't given her much to rise above that. But I find it more than a little cool that she's come across as a much more dynamic character with much more potential to as many fans as she has, despite that -- whereas let's face it, on any other show (or even on this one), any other character written the way she's been would probably be universally hated, hot boyfriend or not. And I'm not quite convinced TPTB are completely ignorant of that. In fact, I think that's possibly what they were directly responding to when they were originally planning to split DL in S5 -- I just don't see the logic behind that choice otherwise (if they felt Lindsay had no other potential beyond being Danny's LI, and they weren't also planning to get rid of her in S5).
Maybe I'm wrong about the character--I wouldn't mind if I was, if there was more to her than there seems to be, or if Anna could add some layers to her. She's inoffensive right now, she really is. But I look at her performance and I don't see any layers. I don't get the sense she's a new mom struggling with a newborn at an impaired husband. And I'm not just talking Whitesnake t-shirts--the actress shouldn't need the freakin'
wardrobe department to help her out.
Where are the small moments--like her reacting slowly to something because she's exhausted or just taking a moment in the lab because she's actually alone for five minutes and it's great--or terrible? Something. There's none of that there. It's nice that she's supportive of Danny--it really is. And Anna has been good in those scenes with him. But there's still not a lot of depth there.
I see layers; it's not just that she's supportive of Danny. I feel like I'm the only one who noticed her tiny hesitation in "Epilogue" before she followed Danny out of the A/V room :lol:, but I thought that was a conscious choice of the actress's; to show that the issues with "not being good at this" from S4 were still there, she just decided that this time there were bigger things to worry about.
That's where her main struggle has always been, IMO, and that's where AB (again, imo) does great with adding that level of aloof reserve, and yet eagerness to get it right, to Lindsay's character. Which may be why the support-scenes seem to have come off well. A lot of her lines just wouldn't have any depth to tell us who this character is, otherwise. I know people feel her main struggle maybe should be with the impaired husband and the newborn (although Lucy's not exactly newborn anymore, is she?), and maybe it should be. But honestly, I don't think those are the things that would bother Lindsay that much.
I'm not saying it is. But from what I've observed, most of Lindsay's fans are also DL fans, which indicates to me that the romance with Danny is part of what is appealing about her character.
Yeah, but again, a character's relationships usually are a huge part of the character itself. Flack's friendship with Danny is a huge part of what interests me in his character, and I can't think I'm the only one who feels that way. But it's not like nothing else about Flack appeals to me. Mac's relationship with Stella, Hawkes' with Danny and Adam, etc. It happens. It doesn't mean it's the only appeal, or that the other appealing things about these characters would vanish if the relationship(s) vanished.
It's not just Anna alone, it's not just Carmine alone. But I think Carmine's early appeal in season one had something to do with DL--he was a breakout character, and naturally, the default response to draw viewers in--particularly younger viewers--is to put him into a cutesy relationship.
Oh yeah, I absolutely agree it was a ratings ploy. But that probably means those younger viewers they were trying to draw in? Weren't watching NY to begin with, at least not enough to register that Danny was a breakout character, or think he was a fascinating one all on his own. So while I agree it's the relationship which drew all those fans in, I still think Anna and Carmine (or Lindsay and Danny) were on a fairly even playing field in terms of being the attracting-feature-to-the-show for those viewers.
The other thing about Anna, and Lindsay is the Montana angle. There's a reason we're reminded in every other episode that Lindsay is from Montana. It's because for whatever reason, season one of CSI: NY was seen as too gritty, too urban, too dark. So the sets got brighter and Midwestern/western Lindsay got brought in to replace ethnic New Yorker Aiden. Clearly, someone thought the show wasn't appealing to Middle America enough. So Lindsay is there to do that.
Yeah, I agree that Lindsay's not being local was probably meant to be a huge draw as well...I don't think that's specific to Lindsay though. There's a reason they sometimes make a point of highlighting the fact that Calleigh is southern (or that Frank is from Texas) on Miami; people like the idea of culture shock. Although I don't think the reason we're always reminded of Lindsay's Montana-ism is just because of that. They also remind us every other episode that Mac used to be a Marine. That's just them being repetitive.
Well, and here's the other thing I've observed--a lot of people who like Lindsay seem to identify with her. Whether it be the small town girl in the big city thing or the wanting to prove themselves thing, there seems to be a connection there. In part, I think it's because the character is something of a pat stereotype--it's easy to identify with the everywoman.
LOL, exactly :lol: But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, a character that lots of people can relate to -- even if it means the character itself isn't that well-written or a particularly strong personality. It always create fondness when a character that reminds people of themselves can still be a CSI, or a vampire slayer, or a witch, or whatever. Even if it's not particularly realistic. I mean, with Harry Potter: the author is
still heavily critiqued about how most -- if not all -- her characters are famous stereotypes. But those characters in general are popular because there's always one thing in at least one HP character that a reader can find in common with themselves.
I have to say, the discussion in the Lindsay thread is way, way more interesting than I've ever seen it before. It used to just be about her hair/clothes and her relationship with Danny. I'd like to see her grow into a kickass character, because I love kickass characters, especially kickass female characters. My all time favorite character ever is Buffy. And maybe that's why I find Lindsay so frustrating--she's such a cliched "poor me, I'm such a victim" whiner much of the time. She started out with some real promise in Zoo York, and has shown spirit now and then--I actually love the way she made Danny "pay" her in Snow Day... that was awesome. It's just that much of the time, the negatives outweigh the positives. Maybe the characters has turned a corner this season--I hope so.P
I'm finding the Lindsay-thread discussion to be really great! Although I think the Stella-thread is just as interesting, even though they talk a lot about her clothes and hair as well. (And awesome! Buffy is easily one of my favourite characters too :lol: I do not understand how anyone could find her annoying.) I think it's just anything that interests people about a character gets talked about, and oftentimes that includes the character's looks as well...I know I've certainly found a lot of discussions in general CSI:NY fandom (though not here as much, admittedly
) about the hotness of Flack/Danny/Hawkes/Adam/Mac, and I'd still assume those people are big fans of those characters.
With Lindsay...it's not that I've never been fond of "weaker" characters, although I'm usually not (and the "weaker" ones that I am fond of usually have
some people advocating that they're actually very strong); but while I'm not too fond of the S3 storyline -- and have just wanted to
scream every time she's been weak enough to go back to Danny -- I suppose I like seeing the mixture of weakness and strength. To me that means fallibility. Angell irritated me in large part because she didn't seem to have any. Peyton, in contrast, irritated me because she didn't seem to have anything
but fallibility/weakness. I have yet to see how Haylen'll turn out. But I agree Lindsay's stronger side is showing more this season. Really really hope they keep it that way.
So much better! But then, Friends was a comedy with a romantic bend, and no show did drama and relationships better than Buffy.
Still, each CSI show has its couple, and those couples do generate buzz. If you read the internet TV show coverage on EW or E!Online, it's almost all about couples, because people are most curious about what characters are hooking up with whom and when. :lol:
Still argh :brickwall: I have seen the Internet TV coverages and the "top ten lists of best couples"
and whatnot; it's just bugging me that CSI, of all shows (not even just NY, but Miami and even the original a little), is vying for that kind of coverage, and sacrificing all kinds of things to get it. Whereas other shows where the romance might fit a lot more easily -- like Law and Order SVU, for example -- don't seem to get nearly as much attention, and are still successful and come off better.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this. Though I think the female characters that come off the strongest--Catherine, Stella and Calleigh--do so by showing how smart they are and carrying themselves confidently.
That's true, but I think it definitely helps that all three -- Cath, Stella, Calleigh -- have been there since the beginning. People got to know them at the same time they were getting to know the original male cast.
I do find it interesting, though, that Sara -- a divisive character if I've ever seen one :lol:, although maybe not as strong as the other three -- gets a lot of controversy even though she was also there from the beginning.
