Would It Really Be A Better Miami...?

[luvcsimiami]

Hi All,

This is the first thread I've ever started on this board so hope I'm doing this correctly. Let me start with a disclaimer and say I am not being snarky or rude and this is not a shipper thread (at least I don't intend for it to be) at all so just bear with me. It's just an observation from my point of view and I would really like to discuss and get other fans thoughts on this.

I want to talk about character assasinations so here goes.

I think that Alexx not being there has shown how a major character can really negatively affect a show. Maybe if they had brought in a better character (sorry not a Tara fan and wasn't sad to see her go. I'll be stunned if they bring her back but who knows) we wouldn't miss Alexx so much. Jonathan Togo is a great example. Sometimes mixing it up can be a good thing. I was a huge Speedle fan and really loved Ryan when he first started on the show...then I really didn't like Ryan in later seasons and now I have to admit he's growing on me again. Eric is still my favorite but I can actually say I like Ryan a whole lot more this season that I used to.

I've noticed that Ryan, Frank and Natalia are extremely popular and b/c of a popular or unpopular storyline depending on which camp you're in, season 7 hasn't really utilized these characters all that much. Of the three characthers mentioned I have to say that all of a sudden it seems that Ryan seems to be the most favored character right now because we fans seem to be so divided on a particular storyline.

With that being said there have been all sorts of speculations about what should happen with two of the lead characters on the show, Eric and Calleigh. I think I've read it all:

Let's start with Calleigh:
-Some want the old Calleigh back
-Some love the new Calleigh
-Some want a combination of the two (That would be me)
-Some just want her gone because they've destroyed her too much to ever make her credible again.

Then there's Eric:
-Some want the before the bullet Eric back
-Some love the new Eric (That would be me...sorry liked the old guy, LOVE the new one)
-Some want a combination of the two
-Some just want him gone for various reasons and I'll leave at that.

So my question is this....would it really be a better miami without one or both of these characters?

If so, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

If not, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

Horatio, Eric, and Calleigh have been there from the very beginning. Since season one, episode one. Frank was scattered throughout season 1 and 2 and we finally started seeing more of him in season 3. Ryan came along in season 3 and Natalia in season 4 (although I don't think she was in the actual opening line up until season 5)

I was so sad to see Alexx go that I'm still missing her presence on the show. For me I actually find it a little disheartening to think that after all the changes, tragedies, writer mishaps whatever you want to call it, that it's actually gotten people thinking that the only way to solve some of the major plot holes the writers have left is to do away with one of the main characters...namely Eric and/or Calleigh.

So I'll start by answering my own question. Although I am an E/C shipper I have to say that I have mixed feelings on the matter. I for one think the show would suffer without these two but if I had to chose and they went this route I think I would choose Eric. For Miami storyline it would make more sense (bullet in the brain...etc) He's unfortunately become the character that is usually cast as the villian (especially when there is a negative Ryan and Eric interaction)

The reason and things that brought me to my conclusion are as follows:

Eric:

I miss the confident Eric Delko before the bullet but that's about it. While he was my favorite character after Alexx left I have to say I didn't like the player aspect of his character at all. The fact that he would sleep with any woman with a pulse was a bit much for me. As far as character assasination moments would have to say there are only a few that make me want to :brickwall:

-I actually think they started messing up Eric's character well before the E/C ship. The whole "toothing" thing was so jacked up I still fume when I see that episode. Player or not, I was left scratching my head when they came up with that storyline as how he dealt with losing Speedle. Are you kidding? :scream:

-I don't think the new Eric is a "puppy dog" at all, but I do wish they would deal with the problems that he's had since the shooting. The old Eric Delko would have NEVER let Calleigh take the fall for him on the cheat sheet no matter what Calleigh said and I HATE they went this route and he just acquiesced as if it was no big deal. His comptence has been questioned so many times it's just not funny and I wish they would write it where he secretly got retested on his own

-His dealings with Ryan. I wish they would give him another reaction when interacting with Ryan other than an outburst first (whether I think Ryan deserves it or not). It would be nice if he would remain calm for once.

Between the buying marijuana storyline, hunting down Antonio Riaz for shooting his sister, the Russian mob father, the INS status, and finally the bullet in the brain. I think this guy has just been so jacked up and emotionally abused that TPTB could come up with a storyline to have his character exit gracefully and open the door for a new character to come in. We would only have H family drama instead of Eric and H family drama. It would bring Ryan to the forefront. Natalia would get more screen time. Calleigh would probably return to some semblance of her former self.

Calleigh:

I actually miss the old no nonsense, in your face, Calleigh. However, I do like some of the things that they have done with her character's evolving. I still think she could be salvaged...maybe. For me there have been a lot of out of character moments that I feel didn't do justice to any of the characters.

-Her covering for Ryan with the supernote. I understood her reasoning at the time but I have to say the old Calleigh would have left the decision to Horatio on how this would be handled.

-The whole thing with Jake was out of the blue and made no sense to me. Sorry Cake fans but it just didn't make sense that they started with the E/C "romance" and then blam Jake shows up in the middle of it and that's who she goes off with. I don't know about the non E/C shippers but I have to say this storyline irritated me to no end because it will never make sense and it makes the E/C relationship now less credible...I don't care what reason Calleigh gave Eric. I love the ship but really, really, dislike how they got there.

-Her covering for Eric with the cheat sheet. Again the reasoning didn't make any sense. Although I will say that I don't think what she did here is ANY differen than what she did for Ryan when she covered for him. Ryan let her take the fall for the supernote (even though it caught up with him later) and Eric let her take his proficiences over again (hasn't caught up with him yet but I think it will) IMHO I don't think that either man would have let her do this and I HATE that it was written that way.

Now, the reading the docter's notes wasn't an issue for me because I got the impression they were going to be read anyway when they got the court order. I've watched that scene a few times and I thought Calleigh said don't we need to wait for court order...to which Eric replied 'that could take days' So if they were going to obtain a court order so they could read the notes anyway in order to figure out who killed the therapist then how was it a breach of ethics for them to do it ahead of time? I know a lot of folks say this killed all respect they had for Calleigh but because of my reasoning above I actually had more of an issue with her covering for Ryan and Eric than this particular issue...not to mention the Jake thing which was just stupid in my opinon.

So there's my take on the matter and I would love to know what others think (shippers and non shippers alike). This isn't a thread meant to start a dispute as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm just really curious as to what others feel regarding losing a lead character of the four original lead characters currently (Horatio, Eric, Calleigh & Frank) left on the show and why they would feel that way. Meaning do you feel the characters have been so messed up that maybe it's time for a new character.

 

[luf100]

So my question is this....would it really be a better Miami without one or both of these characters?

No, I don't think it would be a better Miami at all without one, or either of them. And I'm a huge Ryan fan. I could care less about storylines for Eric and Calleigh (and we all know there are tons), but it just wouldn't be the show without them.

If not, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

They're the only two CSI's left (excluding Horatio) left from the original season. And although I just started watching at the beginning of season 6 some people might wonder why I care so much about when they came into the show. I don't really know, but I do. Getting rid of Calleigh and/or Eric would mean MORE new characters to replace them. Gah, it's so hard to explain what I mean. The show just wouldn't be the show without Calleigh and Eric. And I personally dislike how people are always complaining they like the so called "old" Calleigh or Eric and want the "new" one to be the "old" one again. People change in real life and I think the show has done a pretty darn good job of changing these two characters (and ALL of the characters) over the past 7 years. It's been SEVEN years. People can't honestly think all of the characters are going to be the same as they always were? Especially when something major happens like Eric's getting shot. That would change a person forever and if he was still the same as he was before it everyone would most likely be complaining about why he's NOT acting different, "he got shot in head for goodness sakes, why is he the exact same?"

I don't think that just because these characters have changed like REAL people would, means we should get rid of them because some fans are complaining. There's ALWAYS going to be the fans who don't like what the makers of Miami are doing with the characters, and there's always going to be the fans who love it. Even if we got rid of these characters there would be people are would be oh so happy, and there would be A LOT of people who would be absolutely furious.

As much as I'm a Ryan fan, if Calleigh and Eric were both taken off of the show I would probably stop watching and get my Jonathan Togo fix from somewhere else (wherever else there is). It'd really PO me and a lot of others I'm sure. UNLESS of course Adam Rodriguez or Emily Procter WANTED to leave. I wouldn't be as mad then (maybe at the actors, but not the show :lol and I would probably continue watching.

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

Again I didn't watch during seasons 1-3 but I have seen all of the episodes and own seasons 2-6 on DVD. I have to say when I watch season 2, even 3, I can feel that they were more team like then. They seemed more comfortable with each other. I dunno. It's hard for me to really grasp the whole "this show isn't real" and the "it IS real in the show" thing. Again it's hard to explain. I know the show isn't real and who knows why they've lost this team dynamic that has to do with the actors/writers/producers/anyone else? But then I want to look at it from inside the show where it IS real (I'm not crazy, you know what I mean right?) and wonder WHY the characters seem to be so uncomfortable with each other, or are tense or serious so often. Is it on purpose or is it just coming across that way when they film it?

*sigh* I would like it they tried to get this whole team dynamic back to the way it used to be, but like I said about the actual characters changing, real life changes. Maybe, inside the show where our characters live, things are just going the way they would in real life, people are drifting away from each other. :lol: (Maybe I AM crazy!)

I think my whole point to this is that no, they haven't been "messed up" so much that they should just chuck them and fly in some new ones. They've changed, as a real person would change, and just getting rid of them for that reason would just... not be good. :lol: They're still there, they're still our characters, we can't just off them because they're not who some want them to be anymore.

Sorry if this makes no sense. Good thread by the way luvcsimiami, I think it's an interesting discussion.

 

[luvcsimiami]

If not, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

They're the only two CSI's left (excluding Horatio) left from the original season. And although I just started watching at the beginning of season 6 some people might wonder why I care so much about when they came into the show. I don't really know, but I do. Getting rid of Calleigh and/or Eric would mean MORE new characters to replace them. Gah, it's so hard to explain what I mean. The show just wouldn't be the show without Calleigh and Eric.

I totally get what you're saying. I don't think it would be same show without these two and while I picked one if I had to pick I would hate to see either one of them to go because like it or not they or a huge part of the show becuse they are part of the original cast. Not that JT and ELR weren't great additions.

And I personally dislike how people are always complaining they like the so called "old" Calleigh or Eric and want the "new" one to be the "old" one again. People change in real life and I think the show has done a pretty darn good job of changing these two characters (and ALL of the characters) over the past 7 years. It's been SEVEN years. People can't honestly think all of the characters are going to be the same as they always were? Especially when something major happens like Eric's getting shot. That would change a person forever and if he was still the same as he was before it everyone would most likely be complaining about why he's NOT acting different, "he got shot in head for goodness sakes, why is he the exact same?"

So true. People do change and honestly I never thought of it in the old character vs. the new character sense until you said that. You're exactly right in that people change but I also think there is a huge difference between changing and character assasination as I like to call it. Making a character do something they just wouldn't do no matter what situations they've had thrown at them. I'm not sure that makes sense but to give a better example it would be something like friends that have known me all my life would say I've changed a lot but if someone accused me of running off to Vegas to become a showgirl they wouldn't beleive it because it's just not something I would do. Ok stupid example but I think you can see my point...I hope

As much as I'm a Ryan fan, if Calleigh and Eric were both taken off of the show I would probably stop watching and get my Jonathan Togo fix from somewhere else (wherever else there is). It'd really PO me and a lot of others I'm sure. UNLESS of course Adam Rodriguez or Emily Procter WANTED to leave. I wouldn't be as mad then (maybe at the actors, but not the show :lol and I would probably continue watching.

Wow. Now that I didn't expect. Now I would definately stop watching if they got rid of either H, Cal, or Eric but I have to admit I'm surprised to hear a Ryan fan say they would stop watching if there was no Eric or Cal. Thanks for being so honest

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

Again I didn't watch during seasons 1-3 but I have seen all of the episodes and own seasons 2-6 on DVD. I have to say when I watch season 2, even 3, I can feel that they were more team like then. They seemed more comfortable with each other. I dunno. It's hard for me to really grasp the whole "this show isn't real" and the "it IS real in the show" thing. Again it's hard to explain. I know the show isn't real and who knows why they've lost this team dynamic that has to do with the actors/writers/producers/anyone else? But then I want to look at it from inside the show where it IS real (I'm not crazy, you know what I mean right?) and wonder WHY the characters seem to be so uncomfortable with each other, or are tense or serious so often. Is it on purpose or is it just coming across that way when they film it?

I'm following exactly what you're saying and you make a good point. Sometimes I think it just comes across that way as they all seem pretty happy and attached to each other whenever you see the wrap parties and the commentary (ok, granted there hasn't been much of the cast stuff on that with the E/C storyline but when they do show them as a cast and when E/C isn't the topic) I also happen to think that the folks doing the show see stuff in a different light. I mean listening to commentary on some of the directors, writers and cast on a lot of the seasons I find myself surprised when they say this moment was supposed to be this and the actor does a great job showing it. Commentary that comes to mind is I think season 4 with the e/n/r triangle they had a n/r moment early on before she was dating Eric and the writer and the director commented on it being a "triangle" moment and I was kind of surprised as it didn't play that way at least for me.

I think my whole point to this is that no, they haven't been "messed up" so much that they should just chuck them and fly in some new ones. They've changed, as a real person would change, and just getting rid of them for that reason would just... not be good. :lol: They're still there, they're still our characters, we can't just off them because they're not who some want them to be anymore.

:lol: You are soooo right. Although I do think some new blood would be interesting and maybe adding some members instead of taking away could be even more interesting.

Sorry if this makes no sense. Good thread by the way luvcsimiami, I think it's an interesting discussion.

This makes sense and thanks for the thank you and for posting. I also think it's an interesting discussion and watching CSI again and reading the board just had me wondering. They've done several cast changes there and it's actually sparked my interest again...so just wondered how folks felt about something like that happening on this show.

 

[luf100]

I'm glad you understand all of what I was trying to get across! And you did get my main points really well.

Wow. Now that I didn't expect. Now I would definately stop watching if they got rid of either H, Cal, or Eric but I have to admit I'm surprised to hear a Ryan fan say they would stop watching if there was no Eric or Cal. Thanks for being so honest

No problemo. Like I said I'm a HUGE Ryan fan, but I do watch the show because I'm genuinly interested in it. I love all of the characters (even if I don't care how many or what some of their storylines are about) and taking two of the main ones out for no reason would just get me mad enough to, like I said, find my Jonathan fix somewhere else. :lol:

Although I do think some new blood would be interesting and maybe adding some members instead of taking away could be even more interesting.

I don't think I'd mind this at all. Then again it'd be that one hour stretched even longer, unless they did it in some way like certain characters have more than the others one week and they alternate each new episode.

*sigh* I wish I could write essays on CSI: Miami for school. :lol:

 

[csifann1]

So my question is this....would it really be a better Miami without one or both of these characters?

No, no & no! They are my fave chaacters, but I think that's not the main reason I wouldn't want them to leave, I always loved this show, Speed left, it was the first character that leave, my reaction was ok, a little bit mad, but ok, although I loved him and I still do, then Alexx leave, my reaction was pretty bad, I LOVED her, she was like, the light of Miami, she gave that funny ton to Miami, I don't know, I loved her reaction with the other characters. Now if other of the main characters leave, I mean all the characters, I don't know how I'd react, I just can't imagine!

If not, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

I don't know, as I said before, they're my fave characters, I think the development of both character was realistic, I mean, do you realize how many that people lived? How many times they were in dangereous? How many times they almost lost their lives?

Ok, some people are complainning about the old Calleigh, old Calleigh??! What did that girl throw? She had not a very good chilhood, with a alcoholic dad, she had a lot of losses [Speed and Hagen], she almost drown inside her car, she had to manage Ryan gambling problem [I'm not saying it's Ryan fault, Calleigh is just like that ] she almost lost her best friend and now lover, Eric; she amost got killed by some carjacking's and also hit by the same guys, she spen a lot of time thinking that with her actions in that incident, a woman got killed [thank god it didn't], she got kidnapped, for some hours she thought that her boss, H, was dead; she was almost crushed, when a crane hited the building she was, she had smoke-inhalation, almost died in that one, she couldn't breathe by herself; she had a bag over her head, suffocating her and soon,

Spoiler: finale

we'll see her thinking that she shot her boyfriend

Now my question is, would you be the same person if all of that happened to you in 7 years??


And also, some people are complanning about the Delko after the head shot, so this is a simple explanation, you got shot in your head, you lost your memorie, you still have the bullet on your head, do you want more??
And also, I read someone posts, I don't where, saying that it's kinda of impossible have a fragment of a bullet on your head, and live your life normally, so let's say it's not that impossbile, a while ago a saw a portuguese report about that case, and in Portugal there are 3 cases similar to Delko, a boy 'bout with his 17 years old, got shot on his head, he survived but he lost hos memories, and he also has a fragment of a bullet in his head, so let's say it's not that impossible.

Now, after this explanations, can the people who don't like the new Eric and Calleigh, tell me how can they complaining about them after all they throw?? *I'm not asking you to answer *

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

Well, I've to admit one of my Miami's dreams, is the team spirit back, I miss those times, I miss the break room scenes, I miss... You know, the team spirit
But like I said before, things change


I also I've to say I'm sorry for some of my outflows, I didn't mean to offend anyone, far away from that, I just had the feeling that I had to write this
I agree with Luf100, this is a very interesting thread :bolian:

 

[Orla_Dark]

So my question is this....would it really be a better miami without one or both of these characters?

Probably i would be first who say yes. This show was great in earlier seasons (i mean, earlier for me, season 3 and 4), but since season 5 show become worse and worse with every new season. I start watching this show cuz Jon Togo is there and i fell in love in every character. Even Eric who always argue with Ryan. I loved all cast. Now, Ryan\Jon the only one reason i still watching it. Without H CSI: Miami is not CSI: Miami, but this show can be alive if everyone else left, new blood means new fans. It take time, but if tptb do it right new characters would be loved. If Horatio would be the only one who stay and Ryan, Eric, Calleigh and rest of cast left show, i probably would watching if new team would be interesting. But, if Ryan go away and EC stay, i stop watching. It make scenes? I can watch this show without Ryan only if EC wasn't there too.

If so, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

I can understand that characters change, they should change after all what they come from. But i shouldn't like this changes. There can be good and bad changes, and i think Calleigh change from good to bad.

Eric got shot, of course he can't be the same as he was. I can understand that life is short and Eric now want setteling down. But tptb change not only this. He is weak, he is not sure in his-self, i don't know how i should say this right.

Calleigh, old Calleigh was great, professional. Now this all gone. She should change with time, but tptb do this only for EC romance. Cuz every her life-in-danger situation last two years was just: Calleigh in danger and Eric comfort her, this is all they show. And this bugged me the most. Change her for her or change her for Eric. Personally, i saw the second point, they change her only for him.

If i should choose, Eric should go, i liked his character, but i can't stand him anymore. And i'm for new blood on the show, it's needed!

 

[Florry86]

Ok I'm one of those "bad people" you're mentioning in your posts. W/ this sentence I’m not saying that you don't have any right to do it since it's your opinion which is actually very different from mine. All I’m trying to say is that sometimes you have to understand other people’s reasons before jabbing at them b/c they don’t agree w/ you or b/c they were brave enough to show how they don’t agree w/ you.
Bear in mind that I find this thread really interesting, but, at the same time, I do think it represents the famous borderline of respect. Since E/C, or anything which is related to it, is a very heated topic & unless you clearly define it’s a thread against it & no-E/C fan can post in it unless he/she’s just in a neutral position, I do find it pretty hard for this thread to go on w/o any heated discussion which can end up in being a Third World War w/ offenses & any kind of impoliteness from each side.
I’m not judging you for opening this thread. All I’m trying to say is “please be careful whenever you mention other people who don’t have your opinion”. I’m not a touchy person, but I do feel that whenever you talk about someone who doesn’t agree w/ as you were doing, pretending that this person isn’t there or that he/she’ll never read your statements, you’re ploughing that borderline

Having said this, I do feel that I have the right to express my opinions even if I know that you’ll never agree w/ me just b/c you consider me a not real fan of the show b/c of what I have to say.

So my question is this....would it really be a better miami without one or both of these characters?

I honestly don’t know the answer & I do believe that no one can know it, unless we actually have to face someone else leaving the show. All I can say is that, at the moment, I do feel that CSI:Miami could have better storylines w/o one of them just b/c I’m having the doubt that their current relationship & fans (let’s not deny that most of the people who post on forums all over the world enjoy this couple) are influencing TPTB’s new storylines for this show.
OFC, when I see that

Spoiler: finale

we will have a finale episode of the season w/ a cliffhanger concerning this couople

I do feel they’re influencing the show.

If so, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

I came to this conclusion when I saw how TPTB tended to reproduce exactly what E/C fans wanted. They wanted TPTB at least to explore this relationship, TPTB did it.
They wanted TPTB to put them together, TPTB did it.
I’m pretty sure that as any normal relationship, some of them wanted a little bit of drama for them, TPTB did it.
I also came to this kind of conclusion when I saw Calleigh reading Delko’s files. I know there were waiting for the official court order so they were going to read it anyway, but if you considered any other show, you would know that they wouldn’t let any of the main character investigate on the murder of the shrink of one of them.
I’ll make a very stupid example. Let’s pick up a show like Cold Case Let’s think that Lilly is in the same situation of Delko & he goes to a shrink. When this shrink is brutally murdered, they won’t let her or Scotty Valens investigate on it. This wouldn’t happen in every smart show.
I knew that Miami was a brilliant show & I loved it exactly b/c of this reason. I mean when Calleigh’s father was involved in that car accident, she COULDN’T investigate on it, Ryan did it b/c he wasn’t yet part of the team. No one of the team could do it!!!!

So yeah when I see something like this happening on this show, I do feel that the character is changed (& bear in mind that I’m all for a character to change), but at the same time I do think they destroyed this character’s integrity, something which I would have never expected when I had to think at Calleigh, some years ago. They didn’t just destroy her integrity. They did the same thing also w/ Delko & the whole team!

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

This is an aspect they should consider & yeah I do think things could improve by fixing this aspect. Again, I don’t think that fixing it they could bring back the team integrity

I was so sad to see Alexx go that I'm still missing her presence on the show. For me I actually find it a little disheartening to think that after all the changes, tragedies, writer mishaps whatever you want to call it, that it's actually gotten people thinking that the only way to solve some of the major plot holes the writers have left is to do away with one of the main characters...namely Eric and/or Calleigh.

I’m not saying that they were the only one to ruin the show. I wouldn’t dare to do it.
What I’m trying to say is that they’re an important aspect of this change. We all agree that the show changed & it changed in a pretty bad way, if we consider some of the storylines.
OFC, w/ all these tragedies TPTB could have developed things in a better way.
I mean when Speedle died, why didn’t anyone go to a shrink? OFC, they all had to go to visit a shrink, but we have never had the opportunity to actually see it.
Same thing when Calleigh was abducted. There was no way that she has never visited a doctor (since I’m pretty sure that kick broke at least one of her ribs) or a shrink after that ordeal. But, then again, TPTB never showed this kind of this moment. They were too focused on some other aspects like H’s new family & their new romance, to actually ever consider this aspect of the show. I mean except for the whole toothing problem of Eric, no one was grieving on Speedle’s death for what? 3 Years!!! Are you kidding?
So no it’s not just E/C romance which made me believe that this show is not anymore the one I used to love, but, again, they played an important role.

I do wish they would deal with the problems that he's had since the shooting. The old Eric Delko would have NEVER let Calleigh take the fall for him on the cheat sheet no matter what Calleigh said and I HATE they went this route and he just acquiesced as if it was no big deal. His competence has been questioned so many times it's just not funny and I wish they would write it where he secretly got retested on his own

Totally agree w/ you on this. That’s another storylines which makes me say “bah”. I mean he let her take the fall for him & we never saw him solving this trouble. I mean she had to retake her proficiencies for him, but what about Eric? Is he really a competent CSI? I don’t care if he told he never used that cheat sheet, he had it so his competence should be questioned & he has to retake his proficiencies. IDK whether he’ll pass them or not, I do think he would pass them, but, at least, there would be some struggle.

Between the buying marijuana storyline, hunting down Antonio Riaz for shooting his sister, the Russian mob father, the INS status, and finally the bullet in the brain. I think this guy has just been so jacked up and emotionally abused that TPTB could come up with a storyline to have his character exit gracefully and open the door for a new character to come in. We would only have H family drama instead of Eric and H family drama. It would bring Ryan to the forefront. Natalia would get more screen time. Calleigh would probably return to some semblance of her former self.

Exactly another reason why I wouldn’t mind seeing him leaving the show.

Her covering for Ryan with the supernote. I understood her reasoning at the time but I have to say the old Calleigh would have left the decision to Horatio on how this would be handled

As much as I think she had done far worse things to cover Eric’s trouble, I do have to agree w/ you.

The whole thing with Jake was out of the blue and made no sense to me. Sorry Cake fans but it just didn't make sense that they started with the E/C "romance" and then blam Jake shows up in the middle of it and that's who she goes off with. I don't know about the non E/C shippers but I have to say this storyline irritated me to no end because it will never make sense and it makes the E/C relationship now less credible...I don't care what reason Calleigh gave Eric. I love the ship but really, really, dislike how they got there.

I’m a CaKe fan & I do have to agree w/ you. I do think the intention where pretty good, since they wanted to show how Eric was far better than Jake, but I still blame TPTB for doing it. I know that Johnny Whitroth is a very talented actor & I do think that Jake was a very interesting character, even refreshing for the show, but they used him in such a bad way that I actually see how it’s hard to find people who like him. I love him, I loved his relationship w/ Calleigh, but he was used in such a bad way. And this may be another reason why I hate TPTB.

Ok, some people are complainning about the old Calleigh, old Calleigh??! What did that girl throw? She had not a very good chilhood, with a alcoholic dad, she had a lot of losses [Speed and Hagen], she almost drown inside her car, she had to manage Ryan gambling problem [I'm not saying it's Ryan fault, Calleigh is just like that ] she almost lost her best friend and now lover, Eric; she amost got killed by some carjacking's and also hit by the same guys, she spen a lot of time thinking that with her actions in that incident, a woman got killed [thank god it didn't], she got kidnapped, for some hours she thought that her boss, H, was dead; she was almost crushed, when a crane hited the building she was, she had smoke-inhalation, almost died in that one, she couldn't breathe by herself; she had a bag over her head, suffocating her and soon,

Spoiler: finale

we'll see her thinking that she shot her boyfriend

Now my question is, would you be the same person if all of that happened to you in 7 years??

I for once am all for a change & I do like this Calleigh since she’s a far more mature woman than the cutie old Calleihg, but I honestly came to a point when I lost all my respect for her especially when her own integrity got destroyed when she read Delko’s files, IMHO.
IMO, when your integrity is destroyed, also your character is destroyed.
I’m a fan of Emily Procter & I founded the “An Award for Emily” project & I just adored her character. Now I can’t say that I hate her character, but I just don’t see w/ the same vision I used before & you can’t even imagine how it is hard for a person like me to be in the same position as mine.
As I said I do think they destroyed Calleigh’s character & when you destroy a character there’s no way to fix that character. So yeah I do wish she could leave the show (I wish it for Emily’s integrity), so that she could have the opportunity to show anyone what a great actress she is, something which she could not show once they go on destroying her character, no matter how talented she is
Hope I kinda made sense w/ this

And also, I read someone posts, I don't where, saying that it's kinda of impossible have a fragment of a bullet on your head, and live your life normally, so let's say it's not that impossbile, a while ago a saw a portuguese report about that case, and in Portugal there are 3 cases similar to Delko, a boy 'bout with his 17 years old, got shot on his head, he survived but he lost hos memories, and he also has a fragment of a bullet in his head, so let's say it's not that impossible.

I don’t want to sound rude & please forgive me if I do it, but here’s my opinion since I’m the responsible of that kind of posts.
I work in the medical environment & we define the cases you mentioned “miracles”. I don’t say that they’re impossible. They’re very rare, almost unique, but not impossible....that's why they're called miracles.
The problem is that they didn’t present Delko’s case as a miracle. They presented it as a normal case of a person who got shot in his head.
IDK what your cases are like from a specific POV, but all I have is Delko's case:
Delko didn’t have oxygen at least for 11 minutes ( the time the told us in the episode); five minutes later the MD opted for the athropine. So if we add 5 to 11 we have 16 minutes w/o oxygen in Delko’s brain…that is w/o considering his ambulance trip!!!
So if we want to make a realistic calculation, Delko was w/o oxygen in his brain for at least 20 minutes. Do you know that following an Italian protocol, a person w/ a 30 minutes lack of oxygen is considered a person w/ irreversible neurologic damages? Now every MD would define Delko’s situation a miracle & not a normal case. And as far as I know miracles end up on at least a newspaper (you showed me these example right b/c you read them on a newspaper or saw them on TV show). Delko wasn’t the story of a newspaper. He was a normal case as if he just had a bad car crash & even if he suffers from memory lapses, he’s a normal person.
Now I don’t want to sound rude, but people who had the grace of a miracle are not "normal" people, I mean they're not like the rest of the world population. And I do think that Delko’s storyline is kinda disrespectful for the those poor people who didn't have the grace of a miracle, have neurologic damages & have to struggle w/ them every day.

Now, after this explanations, can the people who don't like the new Eric and Calleigh, tell me how can they complaining about them after all they throw?? *I'm not asking you to answer *

I’m not complaining them. I’m just complaining TPTB & their fantastic ways to put two normal people together. This isn’t real life & it’s far away from being even semirealistic.

Hope I didn’t offend anyone w/ this post

 

[hiphugger17]

First I want to say that there is absoloutely no way that every single fan can be pleased. When the writers decide to go ahead with a storyline there are always going to be fans that love it, that hate it, or that are neutral to it. I think that once they decide to do it they should stick to it beacuse it is known beforehand that there are some people who are not going to like it, heck some are going to hate it. But if they did it, then they should stick to it. For example GSR. I am not a fan of GSR but I know that I can not expect (if Gil was still on the show) that after so much build up for GSR they would suddenly decide to break them up and pair him with say Cath. Even if that's my ship it wouldn't make sense to me after the direction they took with GSR and how much they build it up. And I'm just using this an example because using a shipping example is the easiest way to ilustrate what I want to say. There are always fan that are not going to like a story so IMO the writers do and should expect this and it doesn't take them by surprise because there's no way to please everyone.

So my question is this....would it really be a better miami without one or both of these characters?

Not at all. Eric and Calleigh are an integral, important part of the show.

If not, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

Even though there are fans who are not pleased with them there are fans who are very pleased with both of them. The fact that they've been there since the beginning means that they have been an important part in the show being the success that it is. I'm not saying at all that they show is succesful just because of them but I do believe they've had tons to do with it. Plus like I said, there's no way to please everyone so another character will come whom some will love and others will dislike and this will start all over again.

I've stated in other threads that I love the way Calleigh is now. I still see tough, bullet girl Cal yet now I feel like I've gotten to know her a bit more. Since she shows more emotions and is not so closed off I can know what affects her and how. I see her smiling more and things touch her in a more personal level. I don't see how that makes you a bad person (or in this case a bad character ). But what I do want to emphasize is that she still is tough as nails. In SYG she was the one who defended herself and rolled all over that pavement. In All In she was the one who made it possible for the team to find her. In Smoke gets... she ended up in the hospital because she wouldn't leave without the evidence and risked her life to go back for the body. In Wrecking Crew she tried with all her might to pull that guy up. The difference is that later we got to see that this things affected her (as they should anyone) and we got to see her cry and doubt herself. Now in my opinion that's not a bad change, that's a totally human reality which is nice to see her expressing. This way we see what moves her and how she is affected by things. Being so closed off to emotions is never healthy or a good thing (like how tough and controled she was when Hagen shot himself in her lab or when Speed died). We could see how this things took a toll on her but she held it all in. So the difference now is that she is more expressive of her emotions.

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

I do think team dynamics have suffered quite a lot. The team had a real "team" feel with Speed, H, Alexx, Eric, and Cal. It is my honest opinion that after Speed left that suffered. Maybe it had to do with the fact that the writers decided to write Ryan and Eric so differently than the dynamic Eric and Speed shared. Having two team members not like each other so much from the get-go kind of puts a damper in the team spirit. And please, don't interpret my statement as blaming Ryan for the lack of team because that's not it. I'm just commenting on the relationship established between the two characters from the beginning. Then when Ryan was finally fitting in they introduce Natalia, former mole. Another separation within the team. None of them were too happy with her becoming a CSI in the beginning. So this was yet another moment were, IMO, the team dynamic suffered. Then throughout all this H kept getting more and more detached from the team and more involved with his personal life. What I'm trying to say is that IMO team dynamics began taking hits way before EC happened and have never fully recovered. There were a lot of little things here and there that didn't allow for the team to fully comprehend (Eric and Ryan), trust (Natalia and the rest), or count on (Horatio and the rest) each other for a long time now.

As of now I do think they are all at a point were things can be left in the past and it's about time we move on from Ryan being the not trustworthy guy, Eric being the short-fused guy, H being the distant boss, and Natalia being the newbie. If the writers finally decide to move past this I think we could have a great team who really cares about each other and we can finally have a freaking break-room scene again :shifty:!!!!!!

 

[mjszud]

I'm not going to discuss the changes in Eric & Calleigh since I do it elsewhere & I'm not looking to debate it here in this thread. However, I do find the topic interesting as far as the characters leaving. What I look at in characters is where they can go from the point they're at, how thier personality can change, the character take on a new development, & ect.
I'll just start off by saying that I do think 'Miami' could carry on if they lost either character (not both though).

So I'll start with Eric, who mind you was once my favorite character.
Despite how I feel about him now, I think his character has the potential to keep going. His brain injury, his Father's ordeal, his possible dark side - those are all potential developments that can carry into his character.

Calleigh: Again, despite how I feel about her now.
I feel that her character has completely been developed & played out. She was dealt more cards to play within the first few seasons (unlike Eric) so she's been played out to the fullest in these past 7 years. I'm quite sure some fans could have an image of where tptb could take her - I don't, to be quite honest.

With Eric & Calleigh in a relationship, it leaves very little potential for these 2 to have individual storylines. We have yet to see it ever since they started this, so do I think 'Miami' would be better without one of these characters? I would never have said this 2 1/2 years ago, but at this point, yes, I do.

 

[electra]

Not sure if it would be a better Miami but definely not a show that I would watch.Honestly,all the E/C "impact" is seriously nothing compared to what GSR did to Las Vegas.I hated them but I am the first to admit that despite of how much I love the rest of the cast ,they were extremely important for the show.If Calleigh and Eric left,I would be stuck with super H,someone that I am just warming to(Ryan) and a bunch of people I barely care.There is not a question what I would do.They have neglected the rest of the cast with the exception of H/C/E so them leading the show with new ones doesn't look good.

Luf100,I LOVED you post.With the exception of Kristine reviews,this is the impartial post that I was waiting for.

 

[luvcsimiami]

Ok I'm one of those "bad people" you're mentioning in your posts. W/ this sentence I’m not saying that you don't have any right to do it since it's your opinion which is actually very different from mine. All I’m trying to say is that sometimes you have to understand other people’s reasons before jabbing at them b/c they don’t agree w/ you or b/c they were brave enough to show how they don’t agree w/ you.
Bear in mind that I find this thread really interesting, but, at the same time, I do think it represents the famous borderline of respect. Since E/C, or anything which is related to it, is a very heated topic & unless you clearly define it’s a thread against it & no-E/C fan can post in it unless he/she’s just in a neutral position, I do find it pretty hard for this thread to go on w/o any heated discussion which can end up in being a Third World War w/ offenses & any kind of impoliteness from each side.
I’m not judging you for opening this thread. All I’m trying to say is “please be careful whenever you mention other people who don’t have your opinion”. I’m not a touchy person, but I do feel that whenever you talk about someone who doesn’t agree w/ as you were doing, pretending that this person isn’t there or that he/she’ll never read your statements, you’re ploughing that borderline

Having said this, I do feel that I have the right to express my opinions even if I know that you’ll never agree w/ me just b/c you consider me a not real fan of the show b/c of what I have to say.

Florry86, first let me say thanks for posting and especially for stating the above. In all honesty, I had no idea that's how I was coming across. I have combed this board looking for my posts looking to see where I ever said non E/C fans were "bad people" and I can't find it. However, that's not the point. Whether I said it or not I apparently have offended folks by what I've posted on other threads...the shipper thread I'm guessing since that's the only other place I post and that has NEVER been my intention. I post like I talk in that I'm very direct and sometimes that doesn't translate well on paper (or rather computer in this case). Now that probably gives you the impression that I'm some sort of jerk in person but that's not it all I just tend to be very direct and as I said it doesn't always translate well...hence your comment about the borderline respect/disrespect comments. I'm working on this...basically if I have a second thought about posting it I just don't.

While I do refer to folks that don't like them as EC haters or non-shippers I don't intend that to mean that your opinions aren't valid or that you're not true fans of the show. I've apparently said this somewhere, although I don't remember stating it or implying it or I've given other fans that impression. I regretfully and sincerely apologize. Whether I like them or not, agree with them or not they are your opinions.

I have made some missteps in learning the board and it was pointed out to me that using the word "hate" is inflaming although I see it pretty frequently on other threads. What I do find frustrating is that there are fans who have said the exact same thing I have said but they've been here a while and people know them so folks aren't offended. However, I can post it and let's just say the response has been completely different...(Now that I think about it kind of like the response to EC )

Anyway, all that aside I always used to tell my employees that before you get offended by something someone has said talk to them first as they may not be aware of how they are coming across. I have to admit I find myself on the other side this time and really wasn't aware of how I was coming across. Thank you very much for telling me. I have tried to make my posts more generalized and I will continue to work on that.

I do appreciate your comments on the thread and letting me know your thoughts. As stated above my goal wasn't to start WWIII it was really to get the fans thoughts on a lead leaving the show and why etc, and glad you contributed.

Thanks!

 

[luf100]

Luf100,I LOVED you post.With the exception of Kristine reviews,this is the impartial post that I was waiting for.

Really? Thanks!

 

[electra]

^ Yep.You pretty much don't care either way about E/C so I was waiting for a post like that.There is no passion.Very interesting .

 

[Delynn]

Florry86, first let me say thanks for posting and especially for stating the above. In all honesty, I had no idea that's how I was coming across. I have combed this board looking for my posts looking to see where I ever said non E/C fans were "bad people" and I can't find it. However, that's not the point. Whether I said it or not I apparently have offended folks by what I've posted on other threads...the shipper thread I'm guessing since that's the only other place I post and that has NEVER been my intention. I post like I talk in that I'm very direct and sometimes that doesn't translate well on paper (or rather computer in this case). Now that probably gives you the impression that I'm some sort of jerk in person but that's not it all I just tend to be very direct and as I said it doesn't always translate well...hence your comment about the borderline respect/disrespect comments. I'm working on this...basically if I have a second thought about posting it I just don't.

Luvcsimiami, communicating with writing is such a hard way to express how you're feeling. When people can't see your face or hear the inflection in your voice, a lot of times what you're saying can be misunderstood. That said, Florry86 has to be the most understanding and fair-minded person I've met on these boards, so I doubt she thinks badly of you. I don't think she capable of thinking badly of anyone.

While I do refer to folks that don't like them as EC haters or non-shippers I don't intend that to mean that your opinions aren't valid or that you're not true fans of the show. I've apparently said this somewhere, although I don't remember stating it or implying it or I've given other fans that impression. I regretfully and sincerely apologize. Whether I like them or not, agree with them or not they are your opinions.

To say that I dislike E/C doesn't even come close to describing how I truly feel about that storyline. But "dislike" is as strong as I'll go because there are people on this board who do enjoy that particular storyline.

I have made some missteps in learning the board and it was pointed out to me that using the word "hate" is inflaming although I see it pretty frequently on other threads. What I do find frustrating is that there are fans who have said the exact same thing I have said but they've been here a while and people know them so folks aren't offended. However, I can post it and let's just say the response has been completely different...(Now that I think about it kind of like the response to EC )

I don't doubt at all that you see it elsewhere. But it is an inflamatory word that I doubt you'd want used against some aspect of the show, or a particular character, that you enjoy and another doesn't. I enjoy Horatio and I've always enjoyed David Caruso's work. A lot of people who watch CSI Miami don't and they aren't shy about sharing their dislike or "hatred" of both the character and the actor. Not a pleasant thing to read when it's something you respect and enjoy.

I also know how it feels to try very hard not to offend and make a misstep. In your case you had probably the nicest person on the board respond. In my case multiple posters had to enter the thread and share their sense of outrage - it was all pile on! So you're lucky it was Flo! Believe me - no harm done.

I do appreciate your comments on the thread and letting me know your thoughts. As stated above my goal wasn't to start WWIII it was really to get the fans thoughts on a lead leaving the show and why etc, and glad you contributed.

Thanks!

Infinite diversity. It's what makes life interesting!

 

[Florry86]

Florry86, first let me say thanks for posting and especially for stating the above. In all honesty, I had no idea that's how I was coming across. I have combed this board looking for my posts looking to see where I ever said non E/C fans were "bad people" and I can't find it. However, that's not the point. Whether I said it or not I apparently have offended folks by what I've posted on other threads...the shipper thread I'm guessing since that's the only other place I post and that has NEVER been my intention. I post like I talk in that I'm very direct and sometimes that doesn't translate well on paper (or rather computer in this case). Now that probably gives you the impression that I'm some sort of jerk in person but that's not it all I just tend to be very direct and as I said it doesn't always translate well...hence your comment about the borderline respect/disrespect comments. I'm working on this...basically if I have a second thought about posting it I just don't.

While I do refer to folks that don't like them as EC haters or non-shippers I don't intend that to mean that your opinions aren't valid or that you're not true fans of the show. I've apparently said this somewhere, although I don't remember stating it or implying it or I've given other fans that impression. I regretfully and sincerely apologize. Whether I like them or not, agree with them or not they are your opinions.

I have made some missteps in learning the board and it was pointed out to me that using the word "hate" is inflaming although I see it pretty frequently on other threads. What I do find frustrating is that there are fans who have said the exact same thing I have said but they've been here a while and people know them so folks aren't offended. However, I can post it and let's just say the response has been completely different...(Now that I think about it kind of like the response to EC )

Anyway, all that aside I always used to tell my employees that before you get offended by something someone has said talk to them first as they may not be aware of how they are coming across. I have to admit I find myself on the other side this time and really wasn't aware of how I was coming across. Thank you very much for telling me. I have tried to make my posts more generalized and I will continue to work on that.

I do appreciate your comments on the thread and letting me know your thoughts. As stated above my goal wasn't to start WWIII it was really to get the fans thoughts on a lead leaving the show and why etc, and glad you contributed.

Thanks!

luvcsimiami you're welcome .

Please, I want you to know that I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, especially you. It's just that I know that this kind of discussion can lead everybody here in such a heated debate that after a while people can give up posting b/c they feel they can't express their opinion.

It was just a general comment & I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. As you know we all write & no one is able to literally speak in a forum so sometimes even if you're expressing your opinion in a very respectful way some words can lead touchy people into the "oh gosh I'm a bad person" thought. That's all

I just wanted to kinda warn people that this kind of discussion is really difficult & some times it is really difficult to have a healthy debate (trust me, I know that from experience), but, then again, I think we are all doing a great job in this topic & please let's keep going on like this b/c that why I love this kind of forum :thumbsup:

And if I offended you, please forgive me

Delynn you always know how to make me blush, don't you? Thank again for the very nice words :alienblush:

I do appreciate your comments on the thread and letting me know your thoughts. As stated above my goal wasn't to start WWIII it was really to get the fans thoughts on a lead leaving the show and why etc, and glad you contributed.

Thanks!

Infinite diversity. It's what makes life interesting!

You couldn't have said it better :thumbsup: