Would It Really Be A Better Miami...?

[luvcsimiami]

Florry86 and Delynn,

Thanks a bunch for the words, the encouragement and the clarifications. I agree with what you guys have said regarding how to post, what to say and what not to say. Beleive me I was blasted (ok, I was partially to blame because I was less than diplomatic in one of my earlier posts) That was enough to teach me to read my posts, walk away and then read it again before actually posting :lol: I really appreciate the two of you being so nice about it.

Mjszud and Orla_Dark

Thanks for your viewpoints. You are actually confirming what I was seeing in that most of the fans unhappy with E/C as characters and/or as a couple seem to think Eric should go rather than Calleigh. It's sad cause I love this guy.

Orla_Dark, I can relate though in that your switch in attitude to Eric is just like mine was with Ryan. I wonder if you would feel this same if you watched Season 1 and 2. I think you came in on Season 3 and I admit that's when Eric started being a butt. He didn't start getting himself together until after the whole Marisol thing. So not seeming him before I could see how some fans just seem him as the bad guy of the team.

Mjszud,

I was on the fence with whether one or both should go if I had to choose and so it's interesting to see a veiwpoint who thinks they both should go AND that the show would be better for it. I have to say they would have to get two great actors in order to keep me tuned in if that happened. Not from a ship standpoint but just from the point that these two characters as individuals are so a part of the show and while Ryan is growing on me, he's not enough of a draw for me to keep me watching week after week. However, I have seen your other viewpoints on the whole E/C thing so I can see why you say that.

csi1fann and Hiphugger17,

Ok, I admit it I kind of figured ya'll would say that :lol:.

Eric has always been my favorite and still is. Calleigh had to grow on me and it kind of makes sense. As she progressed from season to season I liked her more and more so I can relate to those who started out liking her and as she progressed started to like her less and less. That being said, I feel these two are integral to the show but as other shows have demonstrated the original ensemble casts doesn't always last and characters are switched out. Just made me wonder how fans would feel if they did it here with one of these two.

The points you guys have made are good ones. Characters change just like people change in real life I think the bone of contention is how they changed and how that may have made one or the other of them detrimental to the show so that it sets it up for one or both of these leads to leave. As much as I love Eric's character I have to say they have done a good job of setting the stage for that with him so if they wanted to I could see them doing what they did with the Alexx character by staging an episode or arc where his character ended up leaving.

 

[Orla_Dark]

Orla_Dark, I can relate though in that your switch in attitude to Eric is just like mine was with Ryan. I wonder if you would feel this same if you watched Season 1 and 2. I think you came in on Season 3 and I admit that's when Eric started being a butt. He didn't start getting himself together until after the whole Marisol thing. So not seeming him before I could see how some fans just seem him as the bad guy of the team.

Long, long time ago i saw couple eps of season 2, it's just didn't hook me up, i thinking it was boring (sorry, just my opinion). I started watch because Jon was there and i started like this actor in SU2 and wanted see him in other role, it was the only one reason i started watch Miami (it was season 5 end... three last eps :lol: Great start, i start watching when he was fired :lol. And i found his character very interesting and after watching season 4 and complete season 5 i fell in love with him. But, as much i don't like Eric now, i liked him in season 3 and 4, i wasn't angry that he always was that mean with Ryan, i found this interaction interesting. But now, i really don't like him.

 

[mjszud]

Mjszud,

I was on the fence with whether one or both should go if I had to choose and so it's interesting to see a veiwpoint who thinks they both should go AND that the show would be better for it.

Actually, I said this:

I'll just start off by saying that I do think 'Miami' could carry on if they lost either character (not both though).

do I think 'Miami' would be better without one of these characters? I would never have said this 2 1/2 years ago, but at this point, yes, I do.

As I said before I think Eric could go on, meaning his character has enough to keep him going on the show. All his "messes" are one way to exit him out, but they're also good plots to keep developing him, so it could move either way. We've had so much drama with Eric though that I could care less that he be even more focused on - Calleigh as well.
The thing with Calleigh is that she's been reduced to being attached to romantic storylines since mids5 - nothing else on the side, as an individual character or as a CSI. At this point there isn't much development left for her on this show, imo - she seems all played out.

 

[Delynn]

Florry86 and Delynn,

Thanks a bunch for the words, the encouragement and the clarifications. I agree with what you guys have said regarding how to post, what to say and what not to say. Beleive me I was blasted (ok, I was partially to blame because I was less than diplomatic in one of my earlier posts) That was enough to teach me to read my posts, walk away and then read it again before actually posting :lol: I really appreciate the two of you being so nice about it.

Anytime, sweetie. As I said, I know what it's like to be on the receiving end. I promise you, you'll never get blasted by me.

Mjszud and Orla_Dark

Thanks for your viewpoints. You are actually confirming what I was seeing in that most of the fans unhappy with E/C as characters and/or as a couple seem to think Eric should go rather than Calleigh. It's sad cause I love this guy.

Hope you don't mind me buttin' in here, since I'm not Mjszud or Orla_Dark. I'm someone who dislikes E/C intensely and if someone needs to go I strongly urge them to make it Calleigh, NOT Eric. I think Eric's character is salvageable. I don't think Calleigh is.

Orla_Dark, I can relate though in that your switch in attitude to Eric is just like mine was with Ryan. I wonder if you would feel this same if you watched Season 1 and 2. I think you came in on Season 3 and I admit that's when Eric started being a butt. He didn't start getting himself together until after the whole Marisol thing. So not seeming him before I could see how some fans just seem him as the bad guy of the team.

As someone who has watched CSI from the first episode, I was never that fond of Eric. I've always felt he was immature and on the whole a pretty selfish guy. I also felt he could have taken his job a little more seriously (like showing up on time). Horatio and Speed were always more likeable to me and Eric was a distant third choice.

Even after Speed died and they brought Ryan in, I liked Ryan better. I've always thought that Eric was unfair and unnecessarily mean to Ryan. Ryan has messed up, sure. But I think a lot of Ryan's problems have been because, with the exception of Horatio and Alexx (and now Natalia), he's always been made to feel like an outsider and Eric was the worst offender in that regard.

Rather than have the Marisol storyline bring out a more mature, likeable Eric, I found myself disliking him even more. While I understood his desire to protect his sister, I didn't understand his need to control her and every aspect of her life. I know he was scared for her, but she was a grown woman and capable of making her own decisions. She was with a man Eric should have trusted most to take care of her, and he still didn't support her decision to marry until he had made her miserable first.

Once the E/C storyline came about, to me he became weak and spineless. Allowing Calleigh to cover for him and take his proficiencies really took care of almost any remaining respect I had left for the character.

Almost! I STILL think he's capable of redeeming himself and there is still a lot of potential story for his character.

Mjszud,

I was on the fence with whether one or both should go if I had to choose and so it's interesting to see a veiwpoint who thinks they both should go AND that the show would be better for it. I have to say they would have to get two great actors in order to keep me tuned in if that happened. Not from a ship standpoint but just from the point that these two characters as individuals are so a part of the show and while Ryan is growing on me, he's not enough of a draw for me to keep me watching week after week. However, I have seen your other viewpoints on the whole E/C thing so I can see why you say that.

It wouldn't break my heart to see both of them go and I honestly think that the show could survive. I believe that Ryan and Natalia could easily fill that void. Both are increasing in popularity and I think given time could make their mark.

Eric, and especially Calleigh, are an important part of CSI Miami. But I honestly think that there is no where left to go for Calleigh. Are they going to keep putting her in life and death situations? It seems to be all they do with her character these days. It's one of the major reasons I'm so angry at the changes they've made. She used to be so unique. Calleigh was one of a kind. Not any more.

Switch her to night shift and give her her own team? I suppose they could do that. Didn't work very well for CSI with Catherine and I think Calleigh's integity has been sufficiently compromised as to suggest that her serving in a supervisory capacity is problematic at best. She is sleeping with a subordinate. She has covered for serious problems that subordinate/boyfriend has had and continues to have. She broke the law by reading confidential medical records without a warrant because that subordinate/boyfriend asked her to. She was warned that she could be in violation of pending fraternization policies while dating Jake and didn't break off with the relationship, she just took it underground.

Calleigh has turned from being the definition of integrity and professionalism to someone who does whatever she wants regardless of the whether it's wrong. Never did I ever think that I would put Calleigh and the word selfish in the same sentence, but there ya go!

I love Horatio, Ryan, Natalia, Kyle and boy do I love Frank! I think they could make a very good team without Calleigh and Eric and I honestly believe it would be a better show for their absence.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I'm sure it's not popular with a lot of people, but that's okay. I'm used to getting blasted. I've got my flame retardent suit on.

 

[Orla_Dark]

Delynn, i love your posts! I think show can leave without Calleigh and\or Eric. People always said that they stop watching because of this (about any show), but... Someone stop and someone start

 

[luvcsimiami]

Actually, I said this:

I'll just start off by saying that I do think 'Miami' could carry on if they lost either character (not both though).

do I think 'Miami' would be better without one of these characters? I would never have said this 2 1/2 years ago, but at this point, yes, I do.



As I said before I think Eric could go on, meaning his character has enough to keep him going on the show. All his "messes" are one way to exit him out, but they're also good plots to keep developing him, so it could move either way. We've had so much drama with Eric though that I could care less that he be even more focused on - Calleigh as well.
The thing with Calleigh is that she's been reduced to being attached to romantic storylines since mids5 - nothing else on the side, as an individual character or as a CSI. At this point there isn't much development left for her on this show, imo - she seems all played out.

LOL! Ok had a little temporary moment of screen dyslexia there. I didn't see the but not both part. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I do see what you're saying about the romantic plotlines driving most of the action for her but that is easily remedied as others suggested on a different thread by just introducing a family member. Not that we don't have enough family drama with Eric and H but seeing Cal's family drama might actually spice things up a bit and open up more storylines that don't have to do with how she is dealing, coping, or romancing her boyfriend (I don't mind this but I can see why others do:lol

Hope you don't mind me buttin' in here, since I'm not Mjszud or Orla_Dark. I'm someone who dislikes E/C intensely and if someone needs to go I strongly urge them to make it Calleigh, NOT Eric. I think Eric's character is salvageable. I don't think Calleigh is.

Not at all chime right on in. Well without actually doing a poll of the non e/c fans I've seen most posts disgusted more with Eric than with Calleigh. I do agree that Eric's character is salvageable, but I still think Calleigh has the potential to stand out as the more unique character of the two IF they did it right. You know a coma or dream episode could fix ALL of this. First episode of Season 8 we find out Eric has been in a coma since he was shot and all the episodes we saw were his dreams as he tried to assimilate things. Then he woke up and everything was back to normal. It was before Jake:lol:, Before E/C , and Before Cal lost her mind....BAM there you go both characters salvaged.

Orla_Dark, I can relate though in that your switch in attitude to Eric is just like mine was with Ryan. I wonder if you would feel this same if you watched Season 1 and 2. I think you came in on Season 3 and I admit that's when Eric started being a butt. He didn't start getting himself together until after the whole Marisol thing. So not seeming him before I could see how some fans just seem him as the bad guy of the team.

As someone who has watched CSI from the first episode, I was never that fond of Eric. I've always felt he was immature and on the whole a pretty selfish guy. I also felt he could have taken his job a little more seriously (like showing up on time). Horatio and Speed were always more likeable to me and Eric was a distant third choice.

Ok. you do have a valid point here. I do love the character and I'm definately not blinded by his flaws. He was immature on the whole in the first few seasons. He was definately into his own thing and pretty arrogant. However, what I liked about him so much was that Speed was usually the one calling him out and he took the criticism and made the correction. They did have two episodes where he was late for no good reason but then they had an epi where he was late and Cal and Speed thought it was the usual reason and it turned out to be because he was helping someone. He went to bat for Frank and little other instances where he seemed to get himself together. I will say that I loved Speed though so I can see where you coming from.

Even after Speed died and they brought Ryan in, I liked Ryan better. I've always thought that Eric was unfair and unnecessarily mean to Ryan. Ryan has messed up, sure. But I think a lot of Ryan's problems have been because, with the exception of Horatio and Alexx (and now Natalia), he's always been made to feel like an outsider and Eric was the worst offender in that regard.

Now this is where I respectfully disagree. I loved Ryan at first as well, until he became over ambitious and started trying to one up Eric with H. Eric definately had struggles welcoming him into the team but I thought he was actually pretty nice to the guy (ok nice for, Eric) until that happened. Then it just went downhill from there until Calleigh had a chat with him and said hey you need to move past it. After that he seemed to be more civil to him until the whole Erica Sikes reporter chick and then at that point I couldn't stand Ryan cause he couldn't keep his butt away from a camera.

Actually, I just saw these two trading off in their attitudes a lot. Eric is more believeable being a jerk but Ryan can hold his own in that department. The episode where he assumes he knows something he doesn't regarding Calleigh and tries to one up her in an investigation. Don't remember the name but it's the one where Ryan takes the vial of blood to the court house instead of the paperwork. Season 4 is a great example where he assumes again that Eric is just slacking and the whole thing has to do with Marisol.

It took him getting fired to get his act together and that's why I've actually started not to dislike him so much.

Rather than have the Marisol storyline bring out a more mature, likeable Eric, I found myself disliking him even more. While I understood his desire to protect his sister, I didn't understand his need to control her and every aspect of her life. I know he was scared for her, but she was a grown woman and capable of making her own decisions. She was with a man Eric should have trusted most to take care of her, and he still didn't support her decision to marry until he had made her miserable first.

Well, I thought the Marisol storyline worked in the fact that they showed him focused on trying to help his family and he wasn't all about partying. I also think the protector in him went into overdrive because his sister GAVE him that control over her life. However, I do agree that I didn't understand or even get his reaction to H wanting to marry his sister. That's one of those writer things to me that just didn't make sense. I mean we go from one episode where he tells H "I was sort of freaked out about my boss dating my sister but seeing how happy she is I can't complain." to "I don't want to come to your wedding." :wtf: I'm sure that transistion made sense to someone it just wasn't me.

I do think though that some of his concern was also for Horatio in regards to how he would handle losing Marisol if she died from cancer.

Once the E/C storyline came about, to me he became weak and spineless. Allowing Calleigh to cover for him and take his proficiencies really took care of almost any remaining respect I had left for the character.

See I just don't get the weak and spineless thing. I do think he had defiinite lack of confidence which I guess would translate into weak, but I didn't see him as someone who spineless? Actually I am trying to understand this comment...can you give me a scenario on that one...other than the proficiencies example becuase I happen to think this is so out of character it's not even funny. I couldn't imagine him doing this and hated the storyline on that one. He all but said he was going to tell Stetler and she told him not to.

What I don't get is why it was so wrong for he to do this with Eric when she did the EXACT same thing for Ryan. BTW everyone in the lab knows she covered for him and Eric even told Ryan it was his fault they couldn't use the evidence. Stetler was the only one who couldn't figure out that a handwriting expert (who was available in the lab) could have pointed him the right direction. :scream:

I also think this isn't any different than her taking the heat for Ryan for the supernote. That's one thing about Calleigh that irritates me, why does she feel the need to take the fall for these guys. They are big boys

Almost! I STILL think he's capable of redeeming himself and there is still a lot of potential story for his character.

Agreed. They just need to implement my dream scenario above and all problems solved. As an E/C shipper I would be disappointed but if it meant keeping the original leads on the show and no Jake storyline I think I could deal.

It wouldn't break my heart to see both of them go and I honestly think that the show could survive. I believe that Ryan and Natalia could easily fill that void. Both are increasing in popularity and I think given time could make their mark.

I actually do think the show could survive but as Orla_Dark said I also think it would be in part due to a new fanbase. Ryan and Natalia just don't hold enough attention for me and while they are starting to grow on me, they aren't growing so much that I would continue to watch without the other two. Now strangely enough if Alexx came back - even though she didn't have a lot of screen time, I would tune in for her

Eric, and especially Calleigh, are an important part of CSI Miami. But I honestly think that there is no where left to go for Calleigh. Are they going to keep putting her in life and death situations? It seems to be all they do with her character these days. It's one of the major reasons I'm so angry at the changes they've made. She used to be so unique. Calleigh was one of a kind. Not any more.

The fact that she wasn't so into the job all the time is why I like what they've done with her. Although the life and death drama stuff is starting to be a bit much.

Switch her to night shift and give her her own team? I suppose they could do that. Didn't work very well for CSI with Catherine and I think Calleigh's integity has been sufficiently compromised as to suggest that her serving in a supervisory capacity is problematic at best. She is sleeping with a subordinate.

I actually have a question about this one. I've seen this posted a lot by others too and I'm really curious. Why does everyone say she is sleeping with a subordinate? I'm asking because when the show started I'm pretty sure on one of the commentaries that their characters were described as being on the same level. She is the ballistics expert, he's underwater recovery and fingerprints. Yes, she did serve in a supervisory capacity while Eric and H were running around Rio but other there's nothing to suggest that Eric couldn't have been serving in that capacity if it had been H and Calleigh running around in another country. Case in point there were several episodes early on where he was serving in a supervisory capcacity in his field of expertise. He was supervising the divers.

I honestly am puzzled about this one just because based on what I've seen and read about the show Eric and Calleigh were CSI Level 3's starting out on the same level with different expertise. Ryan started out as a CSI Level 1. I don't know what he is now but I do know he's not or at least he wasn't as high as Eric (at least before the bullet) so when I saw people asking where does Ryan get off telling him to get his head in the case in WISC that was my first thought...I just didn't post it.

Anyway, not starting a debate I'm just really curious about this and wondering if anyone can direct me somewhere that shows Calleigh is Eric's supervisor other than that assumption from the one time she was the acting supervisor when Eric wasn't even in the office.

She has covered for serious problems that subordinate/boyfriend has had and continues to have. She broke the law by reading confidential medical records without a warrant because that subordinate/boyfriend asked her to. She was warned that she could be in violation of pending fraternization policies while dating Jake and didn't break off with the relationship, she just took it underground.

Calleigh has turned from being the definition of integrity and professionalism to someone who does whatever she wants regardless of the whether it's wrong. Never did I ever think that I would put Calleigh and the word selfish in the same sentence, but there ya go!

Well, that just proves my point at the beginning about the character assassination. I do know that people change but I do have issues with them writing the characters as if they decided to sacrifice their principles for no good reason. Cal isn't the only one that's done this. Ryan has, H has (shooting folks in cold blood, beating up and threatening suspects) I think the only secret Natalia hid was the dislocated shoulder - of course she learned her lesson with the whole mole business.

I love Horatio, Ryan, Natalia, Kyle and boy do I love Frank! I think they could make a very good team without Calleigh and Eric and I honestly believe it would be a better show for their absence.

Love Horatio, absolutely adore Frank, love Kyle...only mildly dislike Ryan and not really caring about Natalia one way or the other but that could just be because I don't see her. I still adore Cal and Eric I just wish they could undo some of the not so great character 'developments' they've given them. Still you're right the show might be a better one but this viewer wouldn't get to see it but I'll be happy for those that were enjoying it:lol:

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. I'm sure it's not popular with a lot of people, but that's okay. I'm used to getting blasted. I've got my flame retardent suit on.

Hey no one's opinion is 100% popular but that's what makes it fun. No need for the flame retardent suit. I hear some of what you're saying and again that's why I started the thread. I think all sides have valid points

 

[Delynn]

Well without actually doing a poll of the non e/c fans I've seen most posts disgusted more with Eric than with Calleigh. I do agree that Eric's character is salvageable, but I still think Calleigh has the potential to stand out as the more unique character of the two IF they did it right. You know a coma or dream episode could fix ALL of this. First episode of Season 8 we find out Eric has been in a coma since he was shot and all the episodes we saw were his dreams as he tried to assimilate things. Then he woke up and everything was back to normal. It was before Jake:lol:, Before E/C , and Before Cal lost her mind....BAM there you go both characters salvaged.

You may be right. I'll admit that my total lack of respect for Calleigh could be coloring my judgment. A coma is an idea. I'd be willing to give any attempt the writers make at restoring that character's integrity a valid chance.

Now this is where I respectfully disagree. I loved Ryan at first as well, until he became over ambitious and started trying to one up Eric with H. Eric definately had struggles welcoming him into the team but I thought he was actually pretty nice to the guy (ok nice for, Eric) until that happened. Then it just went downhill from there until Calleigh had a chat with him and said hey you need to move past it. After that he seemed to be more civil to him until the whole Erica Sikes reporter chick and then at that point I couldn't stand Ryan cause he couldn't keep his butt away from a camera.

Yep. You're right. Ryan's made his mistakes. It was a huge mistake for him to take credit for Eric's find. Calleigh handled that perfectly! That is the Calleigh that I miss. And we are going to have to agree to disagree about Eric making Ryan feel included or welcome. I think that may be a lot of the reason why Ryan sought out validation from another source - Erica Sikes and attention that Ryan felt was postive she provided. It was wrong and he found that out pretty quick and did an about face.

Actually, I just saw these two trading off in their attitudes a lot. Eric is more believeable being a jerk but Ryan can hold his own in that department. The episode where he assumes he knows something he doesn't regarding Calleigh and tries to one up her in an investigation. Don't remember the name but it's the one where Ryan takes the vial of blood to the court house instead of the paperwork. Season 4 is a great example where he assumes again that Eric is just slacking and the whole thing has to do with Marisol.

Oh, yeah. You're right about that. They can both be jerks when they want to be. But I still get a sense of feeling like an outsider from Ryan and I think that is where a lot of his actions come from. In the beginning only Horatio really made Ryan feel welcome. Eventually Alexx and Ryan became close and Calleigh was somewhat supportive (that changed). But Eric was never accepting or supportive.

As far as Ryan taking the vial of blood to the courthouse, I blamed Calleigh for that. She was the experienced CSI and she failed to provide him with the appropriate instruction. Ryan jumped to a conclusion that was horribly wrong about Calleigh's father. And yes, he should have asked Calleigh and not assumed. But his assumption was based on first hand experience with her father, so I'm not sure he can be blamed for thinking that Calleigh was going to pick her father up at a bar. Calleigh didn't exactly explain where she was going.

I actually have a question about this one. I've seen this posted a lot by others too and I'm really curious. Why does everyone say she is sleeping with a subordinate? I'm asking because when the show started I'm pretty sure on one of the commentaries that their characters were described as being on the same level. She is the ballistics expert, he's underwater recovery and fingerprints. Yes, she did serve in a supervisory capacity while Eric and H were running around Rio but other there's nothing to suggest that Eric couldn't have been serving in that capacity if it had been H and Calleigh running around in another country. Case in point there were several episodes early on where he was serving in a supervisory capcacity in his field of expertise. He was supervising the divers.

I honestly am puzzled about this one just because based on what I've seen and read about the show Eric and Calleigh were CSI Level 3's starting out on the same level with different expertise. Ryan started out as a CSI Level 1. I don't know what he is now but I do know he's not or at least he wasn't as high as Eric (at least before the bullet) so when I saw people asking where does Ryan get off telling him to get his head in the case in WISC that was my first thought...I just didn't post it.

Anyway, not starting a debate I'm just really curious about this and wondering if anyone can direct me somewhere that shows Calleigh is Eric's supervisor other than that assumption from the one time she was the acting supervisor when Eric wasn't even in the office.

I'm almost sure that assistance dayshift surpervisor was included in the character biography when CBS had character biography's up on their website. I know that assistant dayshift supervisor is included in her character biography on Wikipedia. You're right about her being a CSI 3, the same as Eric, but it's has been my understanding that after Megan left Calleigh became Horatio's second in command.

Maybe someone else has more specific information about the character and her specific place in this area. If I have a few minutes tomorrow, I'll try to find appropirate source documentation.

I do want to respond to the rest of your post, but I've run out of time. I hope you'll excuse me stopping at this point and allow me to hopefully pick it up and finish tomorrow.

And just a quick suggestion, if I may. Some of the information that you requested to support some of the opinions expressed can be found (ad nauseum ) on the "Eric/Calleigh Romance - why we dislike it". I don't mean to be lazy, but that thread really has a very thorough discussion of pretty much every aspect of Eric and Calleigh's relationship and why some people feel it has had a negative impact on the show. If you haven't had a chance yet, you may want to glance at it if you have a moment. It gets a little tense in places, but I have a feeling you'll be just fine there.

Edit: I was just over at "Eric/Calleigh Romance - why we dislike it" and I see that you were a visitor there and you expressed your opinions quite eloquently. I'm not sure there is a whole lot more I can add to what I said over there, but I'll try and respond sometime soon to the rest of your post. RL is getting a little overwhelming right now.

 

[luvcsimiami]

You may be right. I'll admit that my total lack of respect for Calleigh could be coloring my judgment. A coma is an idea. I'd be willing to give any attempt the writers make at restoring that character's integrity a valid chance.

Hey, that's fair. My judgement was colored with Natalia and Ryan for a while but I'm actually starting to see them a bit more clearly:lol: At least you're willing to admit it.

And we are going to have to agree to disagree about Eric making Ryan feel included or welcome. I think that may be a lot of the reason why Ryan sought out validation from another source - Erica Sikes and attention that Ryan felt was postive she provided. It was wrong and he found that out pretty quick and did an about face.

Fair enough. I will add this though just to clarify what I mean when I say Eric tried to be nice. In the same episode where Ryan takes credit for the find. Delko has his say about it and then later Ryan finds out from Calleigh that Delko is also the tire tread care expert. Instead of asking for help...evidence of a guilty conscience IMHO...he tries to figure it out himself. Eric comes in and see's what he's doing and knowing Ryan isn't going to ask him for help Eric does the right thing by telling him what the car is. I'll even go out on a limb and say Eric probably gloated a little bit and that was unnecessary, but my point is he did help Ryan without being asked AFTER Ryan screwed him. He could have let him stand there for hours trying to figure it out on his own.

There were other episodes like this where Eric just helped Ryan with stuff when they were working a case. No, they weren't warm and fuzzy moments like you saw with him and Speed but I do think that after Calleigh told him he had to get past it that Eric tried. I will always think the turning point was Nailed. These two fought and Ryan was pretty nasty to him...I don't care that he worked x amount of days...he assumed he knew something AGAIN, meaning he didn't learn the first time and he was wrong AGAIN. I don't blame Eric for not advertising his family business. I've been in that situation and it's not the easiest thing to do.

Here's the bottom line, I guess I view some of the Eric dislike vs Ryan just can't win with him as part of a double standard. (no I'm not refering to you or bashing anyone...just tyring to articulate what I mean)
Eric seems to be always wrong and Ryan seems to be is always right. I'll use the example I always use. Supernote vs. cheat sheet. I will never understand why Ryan letting Calleigh take the fall is ok but Eric doing it is not. Both of them were wrong period, both actions could result in others being hurt and huge consequences for the lab, and they both should have stepped up and taken responsibility. Ryan should have stepped up because he had a gambling problem and he needed help to deal with it. Eric should have stepped up because he was just having problems period and he needed help. Yet, somehow Ryan is viewed as Mr. Wonderful and Eric is suddenly not a man, was weak, stupid, etc. because he let Calleigh take the fall...and it was BEFORE they were dating.:scream This is where I say that I think the E/C dislike might be 'skewing' how some of the fans actually see the characters themselves...does that make sense?

I really don't see the difference between Ryan and Eric in these situations as both issues were very severe. Calleigh needed to be seriously reprimanded becuse she has a problem with covering stuff up when she should be dealing with it in the right way. There are more examples but that is just the most obvious one. I use this one though because as much as I love Eric's character he does have flaws and man there are times when you want to just smack him. As a huge Eric fan, I'm not blind to what he does wrong. However, Ryan has been and can be just as bad but I don't always see that stated from the other side, or when I do see it, it's yeah he did something wrong but it's not as bad as what Eric did over here or he had a better excuse than Eric did...ok, seriously:wtf: I'm sure it's out there I just haven't come across it yet.

That being said, no matter how many times I repeat any of the above at the end of the day it's just my opinion and others may have the opposite opinion and that's ok. We can all agree to disagree and still have a great time defending our favorites

Oh, yeah. You're right about that. They can both be jerks when they want to be. But I still get a sense of feeling like an outsider from Ryan and I think that is where a lot of his actions come from. In the beginning only Horatio really made Ryan feel welcome. Eventually Alexx and Ryan became close and Calleigh was somewhat supportive (that changed). But Eric was never accepting or supportive.

I would agree that he hasn't always been supportive but I think that changed...I also think at some point he had to accept the situation. Speed wasn't coming back, Calleigh told him he had to move past it and at the end of the day he has to work with the guy and in some cases depend on him to have his back. How about Cyber-lebrity where Eric comes in with Calleigh and he makes a joke and Ryan said it would have been funny if the person he had been protecting didn't almost get hurt. Eric tells him he's right and then says hey, I just wanted to make sure you were ok. (Um...I have to say support here. Ryan wasn't even back on the job yet, so what other motive could Eric have had other than he was genuinely concerned?)

These two had to have made some peace with each other...pulling pranks on the new M.E. TOGETHER. - That's acceptance. (Then Calleigh telling Tara 'the guys' plural wanted me to check on you. I know it's not a huge thing in the grand scheme of things but it is something.

As far as Ryan taking the vial of blood to the courthouse, I blamed Calleigh for that. She was the experienced CSI and she failed to provide him with the appropriate instruction. Ryan jumped to a conclusion that was horribly wrong about Calleigh's father. And yes, he should have asked Calleigh and not assumed. But his assumption was based on first hand experience with her father, so I'm not sure he can be blamed for thinking that Calleigh was going to pick her father up at a bar. Calleigh didn't exactly explain where she was going.

I agree with you and I actually blamed Calleigh for not telling him but I blamed Ryan for not asking. Talk about miscommunication. I don't know that he can be blamed for making the assumption, but he can be blamed for stating it the way he did. He was a jerk about it and downright disrespectful. He was pissed because he made a mistake and said exactly the wrong thing. Dare I say it was very Eric...and Eric wasn't even there. You actually hit the nail on the head here with something, though. It's one of my major issues with Ryan...he wants to know everyone's business. Honestly, it wasn't his business where Calleigh was going. Her only obligation is tell him she will be out. Horatio is her boss and I'm thinking she told him where she was going. It didn't give him the right to assume either. Nor did he help himself when he made it worse by trying to one up her in the investigation by questioning the suspect without her. There were major issues with both of them in this one.

I'm almost sure that assistance dayshift surpervisor was included in the character biography when CBS had character biography's up on their website. I know that assistant dayshift supervisor is included in her character biography on Wikipedia. You're right about her being a CSI 3, the same as Eric, but it's has been my understanding that after Megan left Calleigh became Horatio's second in command.

Maybe someone else has more specific information about the character and her specific place in this area. If I have a few minutes tomorrow, I'll try to find appropirate source documentation.

Well, it's just something I wanted to know about and even her being the dayshift supervisor doesn't necessarily mean that she and Eric aren't still on the same level or that she supervises him. He has supervised many times as they've shown on other episodes, he just hasn't done it in the lab. I could totally see where she would be the dayshift supervisor in the office and he could also have a supervisor component to his role as well (obviously he does with any underwater recovery crime scenes) that keeps these two on the same level. Personally to go business world here for minute I think they both have a solid line to Horatio on the org chart

Actually, I take back what I said about Eric not having supervised in the lab. Eric has supervised in the lab because he was the one running the investigation to find Calleigh when she was kidnapped. Now I know most saw that as a tiresome shipper episode, but what was missed here is that apparently with Calleigh missing Eric is in charge and the team ended up searching for her all night. The only one there to make that call with Horatio in Brazil and Calleigh missing is Eric.

Yes, I know this didn't happen in Target Specific with Ryan but Horatio was back and why the heck they left that little loophole hanging out in the wind I'll never know. It was completely inconsistent and it just proves what I said earlier about the dislike of E/C possibly coloring everything else because E/C went home and so did everyone else...including Horatio and all them acted as if they expected Ryan to come waltzing in the next morning...like he did. My theory is that when Ryan's phone rang when he was strapped to the chair at the end of Target, they showed the torturer with the phone. The mob didn't want to give away that they had Ryan so it would make sense that the guy doing the torture would make Ryan say he was ok...etc. Hence, everyone went home and no one was looking for him because he called in or answered his phone. That would be the only reason to me why they showed Ryan's phone in the hand of the mob guy and why Ryan was yelling 'go to hell' when never heard the guy say anything. That's the only thing that makes sense. Now why no one found his Hummer on the side of the rode..is just bad writing.

I was just over at "Eric/Calleigh Romance - why we dislike it" and I see that you were a visitor there and you expressed your opinions quite eloquently. I'm not sure there is a whole lot more I can add to what I said over there, but I'll try and respond sometime soon to the rest of your post. RL is getting a little overwhelming right now.

No worries. Take your time. I totally know how RL can intrude when you least expect it. This place is escapism at it's best so I can totally relate :lol:.

Yes, I did go over on the dislike thread out of curiosity and like I said I could see some valid points and even posted some of my own. Thanks for the kudos by the way. However, later I went back and ended up being on one of those 'tense' moments because I saw what I felt was a lot of Eric bashing and not so much about E/C dislike backed up by what was in the episodes themselves. Well, I made the huge mistake of stating that in a roundabout way and let's just say it wasn't taken very well (I guess it was one of my non eloquent days and to be honest I was driven by the thought of man, I hope the actors don't lurk around here and see this.) I was pretty suprised at how many folks dislike Eric I guess and stupidly jumped in to defend him by stating an opposing opinion Hindsight is always 20/20 and I realized this was a judgement on my part and I shouldn't have even gone there. People are entitled to their opinion whether I like it, agree with it, or view it as bashing a character or not.

I deleted my post, apologized and have only lurked on that thread since then. I had to laugh when I saw some of the same things that were in my original post stated by non E/C fans with no adverse effects. I guess as I shipper it wasn't taken the way I had intended it to be taken and that's my fault for butting in when I knew it was a dislike thread. Ah well...you live and learn.

I do appreciate your taking the time to direct me there though and to post on this thread. As I stated earlier I do think there are some points being made on the dislike thread that are very valid, and I guess I just wish sometimes the characters, most especially E/C, could be cut just a little slack as they are just doing what's in the dang script. Some of the stuff just comes down to bad writing and not bad characters.

Thanks for indulging me over here on this thread. Back to the original intent of the thread...per my explanations above I think that whatever the intent TPTB had with some of the writing of E/C it backfired on the characters as individuals and as a result many fans don't even like them now...especially Eric and that's why I think if a lead had to go more people would be accepting of Eric leaving and not Calleigh.

Hope I didn't offend you or anyone with this post. I indulged in a bit of ranting but mainly about my observations which are also my own opinions and look forward to seeing your viewpoints.

 

[Orla_Dark]

I agree with you and I actually blamed Calleigh for not telling him but I blamed Ryan for not asking. Talk about miscommunication. I don't know that he can be blamed for making the assumption, but he can be blamed for stating it the way he did. He was a jerk about it and downright disrespectful. He was pissed because he made a mistake and said exactly the wrong thing. Dare I say it was very Eric...and Eric wasn't even there. You actually hit the nail on the head here with something, though. It's one of my major issues with Ryan...he wants to know everyone's business. Honestly, it wasn't his business where Calleigh was going. Her only obligation is tell him she will be out. Horatio is her boss and I'm thinking she told him where she was going. It didn't give him the right to assume either. Nor did he help himself when he made it worse by trying to one up her in the investigation by questioning the suspect without her. There were major issues with both of them in this one.

But Ryan said that he is sorry about that in the end. And Ryan said that he texted her about interrogation, but she didn't get it. It's funny, when men trying texted her something important she never get it, like it was with Eric in season 6 when he accidentally said about her and Jake to Stetler :lol:

Ryan finds out from Calleigh that Delko is also the tire tread care expert. Instead of asking for help...evidence of a guilty conscience IMHO...he tries to figure it out himself. Eric comes in and see's what he's doing and knowing Ryan isn't going to ask him for help Eric does the right thing by telling him what the car is. I'll even go out on a limb and say Eric probably gloated a little bit and that was unnecessary, but my point is he did help Ryan without being asked AFTER Ryan screwed him. He could have let him stand there for hours trying to figure it out on his own.

Yeah, i think Ryan understand that he did stupid thing and not asked help from Delko. But Eric was pretty pissed off when Ryan give him bag with paper :lol: It was hard puzzle And i should say, that Calleigh just more patient with newbie, step by step she tell him what he did wrong and it's never happened again. Ryan never stole evidence anymore, Ryan never talk with Erica about case anymore. Yeah, he work on tv after Burned, then again Calleigh was the one who was hard with him and tell him whole truth, that he hurt many people. And again he did right thing and did whole paper work (with Natalia's help).

Eric seems to be always wrong and Ryan seems to be is always right. I'll use the example I always use. Supernote vs. cheat sheet. I will never understand why Ryan letting Calleigh take the fall is ok but Eric doing it is not.

IMO, they both was wrong in that situation. And Ryan have his consequences after that (Burned), he should go to Eliot and said that it was his supernote, but Calleigh take that fall and he didn't learn his lesson well. Ryan is character who always faced with consequences (we still didn't saw consequences after 7x20, but knowing tptb they remember it in next season... I hope i wrong), but Eric never. Calleigh take fall and Eric didn't ever think that he NEED check his professional skills. He goes to shrink, it's good, but why he don't go to criminalists lessons, just for case.

My theory is that when Ryan's phone rang when he was strapped to the chair at the end of Target, they showed the torturer with the phone. The mob didn't want to give away that they had Ryan so it would make sense that the guy doing the torture would make Ryan say he was ok...etc.

No, kidnapper take his phone and drop call (i don't know how it write right) and Eric stop calling. Like russians fans who dislike Ryan said "maybe he was on date? if they start search him, they can find him in bed with girl". 1) He said that wanna talk with Cameron West and he probably call them and say that he talk or not talk with that guy. But he didn't and they never asked him about it 2) Hummer, very expensive car don't comeback to lab parking place and we still don't know what happened with car. 3) On next day he coming with cut on lip, with missing tooth and no one never mentioned that he not answered on phone day before. If they think he was with girl, he probably like hard-sex :lol: Didn't know it about him. The only one thing i can say: it was very, very bad writing with continuation between both eps.

 

[Florry86]

Florry86 and Delynn,
Thanks a bunch for the words, the encouragement and the clarifications. I agree with what you guys have said regarding how to post, what to say and what not to say.

Don't worry, it was a pleasure also b/c I knew you were going to understand what I was trying to say :thumbsup:

You are actually confirming what I was seeing in that most of the fans unhappy with E/C as characters and/or as a couple seem to think Eric should go rather than Calleigh. It's sad cause I love this guy.

I know you weren't referring to me, but actually I'm one of those people who would prefer Calleigh to leave rather than Eric, just b/c I think that her character's dignity has been destroyed & I don't want TPTB to harm her character even more than they've already done.
Also, I'm a fan of Emily Procter &, as I mentioned above, I do think that destroying her character can lead to very harsh reviews, something which I'm not looking for as I want her to get an award, something she won't ever get as long as she keeps playing a character like Calleigh considering the reviews CSI:Miami tends to get.

it's interesting to see a veiwpoint who thinks they both should go AND that the show would be better for it. I have to say they would have to get two great actors in order to keep me tuned in if that happened. Not from a ship standpoint but just from the point that these two characters as individuals are so a part of the show and while Ryan is growing on me, he's not enough of a draw for me to keep me watching week after week.

Let's say that I kinda agree w/ you.
While people can eventually cope w/ the departure of just one of them, it would be really difficult to cope w/ the absence of 2 very important characters of the show like Eric & Calleigh.
As much as I came to a point where I can't stand Eric's view & I always criticsize Calleigh's behaviour, I do have to say that they were very important in the first 5 seasons, along w/ H, they were the soul of the show.
Ok Ryan is always growing in me, but still he has to go on like this at least for another year, then, probably, we all should be able cope w/ the absence of both Eric & Calleigh ...that's for the poeple who, like me, have been watching the show since its very first episode.

But, as much i don't like Eric now, i liked him in season 3 and 4, i wasn't angry that he always was that mean with Ryan, i found this interaction interesting. But now, i really don't like him.

See? I used to enjoy Eric whenever he got mad at Ryan in s3 just b/c it was so natural. I mean Ryan was the one who replaced his beloved Speedle & it's was absolutely normal that Eric used to be pissed off whenever he was w/ Ryan.
Things changed, for me, when Ryan frst pointed out that Delko put a double evidence signal on a single blood dorp since at the time Delko was still suffering from his bullet. Ryan warned him about the double vision trouble & Eric just got mad at him. Then it has always been like this between the 2 guys. No! Sooner or later Eric has to trust Ryan & has to consider him as a friend instead of being always hysterical

The thing with Calleigh is that she's been reduced to being attached to romantic storylines since mids5 - nothing else on the side, as an individual character or as a CSI. At this point there isn't much development left for her on this show, imo - she seems all played out.

Gotta agree not to mention that it was stupid they just lost her father in the famous TPTB's continuity pool. I mean he was the only good storyline they had for her in 7 seasons? Are you kidding? :scream:

Even after Speed died and they brought Ryan in, I liked Ryan better. I've always thought that Eric was unfair and unnecessarily mean to Ryan. Ryan has messed up, sure. But I think a lot of Ryan's problems have been because, with the exception of Horatio and Alexx (and now Natalia), he's always been made to feel like an outsider and Eric was the worst offender in that regard.

Actually, when they brought Ryan I just couldn’t stand him just b/c the first thing they showed of him was that he had a cleaned gun (gosh I wanted to kill TPTB in that episode :lol: ), but I have to say that you’re right. I mean Calleigh had absolutely no problem to accept him as part of the team, immediately (ofc, w/ the exception of his first episode when I’m sure she wanted to cut his head off), & even when he made a mistake, she was there to try to help him b/c, to her, he was part of the team.
Alexx . . . except her little vent when they were investigating on an old Speed’s case, has always been the nicest person to Ryan!
As for Horatio, ok I think he was too busy w/ some other stuff, but, then again, he’s been always nice to Ryan.
The real problem has always been Eric!

Rather than have the Marisol storyline bring out a more mature, likeable Eric, I found myself disliking him even more. While I understood his desire to protect his sister, I didn't understand his need to control her and every aspect of her life. I know he was scared for her, but she was a grown woman and capable of making her own decisions. She was with a man Eric should have trusted most to take care of her, and he still didn't support her decision to marry until he had made her miserable first.

Actually I hated this storyline just b/c it was ridiculous that Marisol had a cancer. Don’t get me wrong, but please tell me who on heart does chemotherapy & has all the hair Alana De La Garza had on her head! This was just ridiculous & disrespectful towards whoever has cancer!
As for Eric, IDK I kinda liked him throughout this storyline, but you’re also right b/c she was an adult & he didn’t have to protect her also b/c wasn’t she supposed to be older than Eric? I remember “Kill Zone” when Eric told H that his sister, Marisol, wanted him to come back home. Now this normally happens when the sister is older, also b/c it was Calleigh’s mother who told her to come back home.

Once the E/C storyline came about, to me he became weak and spineless.

Honestly, I just don’t see how he can protect her also b/c whenever he’s in trouble, she’s the first one there to help him & to end up in the same trouble, if not a worse one

But I honestly think that there is no where left to go for Calleigh. Are they going to keep putting her in life and death situations? It seems to be all they do with her character these days. It's one of the major reasons I'm so angry at the changes they've made. She used to be so unique. Calleigh was one of a kind. Not any more.

That’s exactly the reason why I don’t like the changes they’ve wrote for Calleigh (it’s even worse than the E/C storyline for me). I mean ok that she had to mature a little bit more, as anyone else, & ok that, maybe, they wanted to put her at the same level of H, but this is not how you should develop a character.
I would have preferred to see her dad dying b/c of cirrhosis of the liver, that would have been a great way for her to mature. Still I think there was no need to mature her, especially w/ the storylines they used for her. At this point, I’m really afraid they’re gonna bring back our old Duke just to let him die in front of her, in this case I’m think I’ll be ready to see her committing a suicide!
No, if you asked me, this isn’t the way to develop a character, this is the way to destroy it!

Calleigh has turned from being the definition of integrity and professionalism to someone who does whatever she wants regardless of the whether it's wrong. Never did I ever think that I would put Calleigh and the word selfish in the same sentence, but there ya go!

Yep there we go! Thanks TPTB for this

Not at all chime right on in. Well without actually doing a poll of the non e/c fans I've seen most posts disgusted more with Eric than with Calleigh. I do agree that Eric's character is salvageable, but I still think Calleigh has the potential to stand out as the more unique character of the two IF they did it right. You know a coma or dream episode could fix ALL of this. First episode of Season 8 we find out Eric has been in a coma since he was shot and all the episodes we saw were his dreams as he tried to assimilate things. Then he woke up and everything was back to normal. It was before Jake:lol:, Before E/C , and Before Cal lost her mind....BAM there you go both characters salvaged.

That’s would be the only possible way to save both Calleigh & Eric.
Another way to save Calleigh is that she’s always been UC in our lab & she has never been an actual member of the lab & now it’s time for her to leave!

Season 4 is a great example where he assumes again that Eric is just slacking and the whole thing has to do with Marisol.

Well OFC, when you don’t feel part of the team also b/c you don’t know anything about your colleague’s sister ( you didn’t even know anything about her existence) you have the right to have doubt on a person who shows up w/ marijuana!
Let’s not forget that the same thing was done by Calleigh when she first met Marisol & thought she was one of Eric’s girls!!! It’s exactly the same thing.

However, I do agree that I didn't understand or even get his reaction to H wanting to marry his sister. That's one of those writer things to me that just didn't make sense. I mean we go from one episode where he tells H "I was sort of freaked out about my boss dating my sister but seeing how happy she is I can't complain." to "I don't want to come to your wedding." :wtf:I'm sure that transistion made sense to someone it just wasn't me

Trust me, to me, it didn’t make sense, at all!

Actually I am trying to understand this comment...can you give me a scenario on that one...other than the proficiencies example becuase I happen to think this is so out of character it's not even funny. I couldn't imagine him doing this and hated the storyline on that one. He all but said he was going to tell Stetler and she told him not to.

Ok let’s think at some examples:
- when he told Stetler about Calleigh & Jake. The first thing he thought was to phone Calleigh & tell her about his mistake! Now, don’t get me wrong, but if he really thought Jake was a jerk, he shouldn’t have had any doubt on doing the right thing for her. I mean he was sure Jake was a jerk & he was sure to love Calleigh. He did what he did b/c of it! His conscience was absolutely clean in that moment & once Calleigh found out what had just happened, he would have had the occasion to reveal his feelings for her. But his first instinct was to phone her & warn her about everything b/c he knew he made a bad mistake. But if he loves her so much he didn’t make any mistake!! Still he didn’t understand it.
- The problem w/ the proficiencies, is that Eric didn’t care about her carreer. He let her retake her proficiencies (btw it would have been much nicer to see if she hadn’t pass the exam) b/c he knew that his mistake put her in danger. Calleigh told him so! His cheat sheet put her in danger, it was b/c of that sheet that she was kidnapped & had to temper w/ evidences. But he will never admit something is not quite ok w/ his brain b/c he’s too self-confident. But a real man would have politely admitted he had put her in danger! Look he also said that once he finds out that he put a person in danger b/c of his actions, he would be ready to resign, but “hello Delko’s brain, she just told you put someone in danger & oh boy that person is your beloved Calleigh!”. Ryan at least admitted his mistake & admitted
- He mentioned more than once that he’d love a big family, but when Natalia told him that probably she was pregnant, he totally freaked out!
- When Calleigh asked him what the hell he wanted from her, he was just “uh”. “Uh”? You’ve been chasing her like w/ puppy dogs for more than 2 years & once she offers you the silver plate, you’re “uh”??? :scream:

BTW everyone in the lab knows she covered for him and Eric even told Ryan it was his fault they couldn't use the evidence. Stetler was the only one who couldn't figure out that a handwriting expert (who was available in the lab) could have pointed him the right direction. :scream:

And that’s another way to show how a great show like CSI:Miami can sometimes be so ridiculous :lol:

I also think this isn't any different than her taking the heat for Ryan for the supernote. That's one thing about Calleigh that irritates me, why does she feel the need to take the fall for these guys. They are big boys

I must admit that while the situations were a little bit differents, Calleigh always irritates me whenever she does these things. Ok that she’s very kind, but I learned from personal experience that when you’re too kind bad people will disfruit your kindness just to harm you.

I actually do think the show could survive but as Orla_Dark said I also think it would be in part due to a new fanbase.

As much I came to a point where I prefer Ryan & Natalia to Calleigh & Eric, I must say that this is the only reason why people would keep watching the show w/o Calleigh & Eric.

I've seen this posted a lot by others too and I'm really curious. Why does everyone say she is sleeping with a subordinate?

Just b/c when Horatio will die, Calleigh will be the first one to become Lt.
Eric is CSI level 3. Calleigh is on the same level, but has much more experience. Not to mention that I’ve never seen Eric replacing H o leading an investigation.

when I saw people asking where does Ryan get off telling him to get his head in the case in WISC that was my first thought...I just didn't post it.

I was one of the people who complained about it. And it wasn’t b/c of their levels. It was b/c right now Eric is the first one who easily gets all emotional while investigating on a person w/ memory lapses just b/c he reminds him his bullet situation. So he’s the first one who should shut up, IMHO.

As far as Ryan taking the vial of blood to the courthouse, I blamed Calleigh for that. She was the experienced CSI and she failed to provide him with the appropriate instruction. Ryan jumped to a conclusion that was horribly wrong about Calleigh's father. And yes, he should have asked Calleigh and not assumed. But his assumption was based on first hand experience with her father, so I'm not sure he can be blamed for thinking that Calleigh was going to pick her father up at a bar. Calleigh didn't exactly explain where she was going.

I must admit that I wanted to kill both of them in the episode. Ryan should have never assumed that she was going to pick up her dad at a bar. But Calleigh, at the same time, didn’t give him the right instruction.

I'm almost sure that assistance dayshift surpervisor was included in the character biography when CBS had character biography's up on their website. I know that assistant dayshift supervisor is included in her character biography on Wikipedia. You're right about her being a CSI 3, the same as Eric, but it's has been my understanding that after Megan left Calleigh became Horatio's second in command.

Well honestly, I don’t have any doubt she’s Horatio’s second in command. They never officially mentioned it, but she is!
And, as I mentioned above, Eric never lead an investigation.

Fair enough. I will add this though just to clarify what I mean when I say Eric tried to be nice. In the same episode where Ryan takes credit for the find. Delko has his say about it and then later Ryan finds out from Calleigh that Delko is also the tire tread care expert. Instead of asking for help...evidence of a guilty conscience IMHO...he tries to figure it out himself. Eric comes in and see's what he's doing and knowing Ryan isn't going to ask him for help Eric does the right thing by telling him what the car is. I'll even go out on a limb and say Eric probably gloated a little bit and that was unnecessary, but my point is he did help Ryan without being asked AFTER Ryan screwed him. He could have let him stand there for hours trying to figure it out on his own.

That’s right, but correct me if I’m wrong, except for this, I’ve never seen Eric truly helping Ryan, I mean giving effective advises about his life or gambling problem or other things like this.

Eric seems to be always wrong and Ryan seems to be is always right.

I repeat. The situation was completely the opposite for me till Delko received his famous gift, the bullet.

Actually, I take back what I said about Eric not having supervised in the lab. Eric has supervised in the lab because he was the one running the investigation to find Calleigh when she was kidnapped.

Well,OFC, he had to supervise in that episode :lol: Don’t get me wrong, but this example cracks me up . I mean his boss was in Brazil & Calleigh was oh yeah she was clorophormed & gagged in a warehouse! He was the last one left & he’s CSI 3 while Ryan is still new at the lab. Or did you want Natalia to supervise in this episode?

Yes, I did go over on the dislike thread out of curiosity and like I said I could see some valid points and even posted some of my own. Thanks for the kudos by the way. However, later I went back and ended up being on one of those 'tense' moments because I saw what I felt was a lot of Eric bashing and not so much about E/C dislike backed up by what was in the episodes themselves.

I’m sorry you felt that way while reading that thread, but I think that it’s pretty normal that when you hate a couple you’ll eventually end up hating one if not both of the characters involved.
Again, I’m sorry that was the impression you had.

I hope the actors don't lurk around here and see this.

In all honestly, I’d love actors to read some of our discussions so that they can know how actually the viewers feel about what’s going on the show.
I mean they’ll surely know that 90% of the forum population love E/C, but there are lots of people who go on watching this show b/c of completely different show.
Ok that I’m pretty sure that EP would start feel more self-conscious than she’s actually is once she reads that I’m among the ones who want Calleigh to leave the show (& I was the one who founded the “An Award For Emily” project :shifty: ), but I’m pretty sure that they’ll eventually understand the real intention of some kinds of post. That is if the discussion is respectful towards the actors

**I do appreciate your taking the time to direct me there though and to post on this thread.

I’m one of the people who wrote in the thread talking about whether E/C fans should post in it or not. And I’ll repeat it. As long as you post in a respectful way knowing that most of the times we’ll never agree w/ you on some things, it’s perfectly fine for you to post in there. The problem comes when people want to start literally a shipping debate something we’re not looking forward in that thread

Oh gosh that was long, thank god RL was indulgent w/ me today :lol:

 

[Delynn]

You are actually confirming what I was seeing in that most of the fans unhappy with E/C as characters and/or as a couple seem to think Eric should go rather than Calleigh. It's sad cause I love this guy.

I know you weren't referring to me, but actually I'm one of those people who would prefer Calleigh to leave rather than Eric, just b/c I think that her character's dignity has been destroyed & I don't want TPTB to harm her character even more than they've already done.

I would also select Calleigh as the one to depart. I think the character has lost all integrity and I lost respect for her long ago. Also, as I stated previously, I just don't think there is anywhere left to go for her character.

Also, I'm a fan of Emily Procter &, as I mentioned above, I do think that destroying her character can lead to very harsh reviews, something which I'm not looking for as I want her to get an award, something she won't ever get as long as she keeps playing a character like Calleigh considering the reviews CSI:Miami tends to get.

I used to be a huge Emily Procter fan. Not so much any longer. But I agree with Flo. If Ms. Procter ever hopes to receive acknowledgement of her acting abilities, it won't be for playing Calleigh. If Calleigh were the role she was to receive any awards for, they would have come in the first couple of seasons when Calleigh was new and unique. She needs to move on and she needs to do it in a timely manner. As beautiful as she is, she is in a harsh and cold business where the aging process, most unfairly for women in particular, is not kindly looked on.

Let's say that I kinda agree w/ you.
While people can eventually cope w/ the departure of just one of them, it would be really difficult to cope w/ the absence of 2 very important characters of the show like Eric & Calleigh.

I agree that it would be extremely difficult to lose both characters at one time. It would be a serious blow to lose one of them. But I think they could recover from losing one of them. Ratings would take a hit for a while but as Orla_Dark indicated, while some fans would leave, others may come on board. I just think that Calleigh is the logical character to leave.

As much as I came to a point where I can't stand Eric's view & I always criticsize Calleigh's behaviour, I do have to say that they were very important in the first 5 seasons, along w/ H, they were the soul of the show.

They were integral to giving birth to, and the amazing success of, CSI Miami. But the dynamics of the show have changed so radically that it isn't unwise to consider that fresh stories are necessary. If they aren't able to successfully achieve it with the current characters, and I don't think that have, it's time for some of the old characters to make room for new characters with new potential. I know a lot of people hate Horatio/Caruso, but that character IS the most identified with the show, most polls show him the most popular character, so like it or not, to lose that character/actor, might not be the best way to go.

Ok Ryan is always growing in me, but still he has to go on like this at least for another year, then, probably, we all should be able cope w/ the absence of both Eric & Calleigh ...that's for the poeple who, like me, have been watching the show since its very first episode.

Ryan is so humanly flawed. He was so young and eager when he started. He's made some REAL mistakes, but aside from the huge gambling issue, for which he paid dearly, I think he learns from his mistakes. Besides that, I don't think he's ever been made to feel like he's one of the team. Only Horatio and Alex have ever shown consistant care and concern for Ryan.

See? I used to enjoy Eric whenever he got mad at Ryan in s3 just b/c it was so natural. I mean Ryan was the one who replaced his beloved Speedle & it's was absolutely normal that Eric used to be pissed off whenever he was w/ Ryan.

I agree that some resentment initially was normal. Heck, even Alexx was very standoffish at first with Ryan. But Eric has consistently hammered on Ryan. Eric may show concern or assist Ryan once in a while, but a lot of times it's begruding. Eric helping Ryan in Nailed always appeared to be more out of guilt to me than Eric actually caring about Ryan as a person.

Things changed, for me, when Ryan frst pointed out that Delko put a double evidence signal on a single blood dorp since at the time Delko was still suffering from his bullet. Ryan warned him about the double vision trouble & Eric just got mad at him. Then it has always been like this between the 2 guys. No! Sooner or later Eric has to trust Ryan & has to consider him as a friend instead of being always hysterical

I've always thought that Ryan was very gentle and respectful the times he has had to point out mistakes to Eric since the shooting. And he gets nothing but anger and resentment in return. Eric didn't scream at Calleigh when she pointed out he mixed up the chemicals in his kit.

Gotta agree not to mention that it was stupid they just lost her father in the famous TPTB's continuity pool. I mean he was the only good storyline they had for her in 7 seasons? Are you kidding? :scream:

I loved every single appearance of Calleigh's father. That was a very special story for her character and a real shame that TPTB didn't see that. Another amazing storyline possibility they dropped was Horatio being brought back to NY to answer for the killing of his father. The cross-over potential with CSI NY was unlimited. Boggles the mind....

Actually I hated this storyline just b/c it was ridiculous that Marisol had a cancer. Don’t get me wrong, but please tell me who on heart does chemotherapy & has all the hair Alana De La Garza had on her head! This was just ridiculous & disrespectful towards whoever has cancer!

As for Eric, IDK I kinda liked him throughout this storyline, but you’re also right b/c she was an adult & he didn’t have to protect her also b/c wasn’t she supposed to be older than Eric? I remember “Kill Zone” when Eric told H that his sister, Marisol, wanted him to come back home. Now this normally happens when the sister is older, also b/c it was Calleigh’s mother who told her to come back home.

Marisol's cancer and the Horatio/Marisol romance were always horrible for me. I barely made it through that storyline.

That’s would be the only possible way to save both Calleigh & Eric.
Another way to save Calleigh is that she’s always been UC in our lab & she has never been an actual member of the lab & now it’s time for her to leave!

As I stated before, at this point I'd be willing to give anything they can come up with to restore these characters to their original integrity and respect, a chance. God! I really miss the Calleigh I adored.

Let’s not forget that the same thing was done by Calleigh when she first met Marisol & thought she was one of Eric’s girls!!! It’s exactly the same thing.

Yep, even Calleigh who was supposed to be a "close" friend didn't recognize Marisol as Eric's sister or know about her cancer and Eric's part in taking care of her.

Trust me, to me, it didn’t make sense, at all!

I don't know anyone it made sense too. The whole Horatio/Marisol storyline was a disaster in my opinion.

Ok let’s think at some examples:

I went ahead and snipped Flo's wonderful examples to save a little space.

But, Wow! Why would I even try to add to that! Flo, you're amazing!

I must admit that while the situations were a little bit differents, Calleigh always irritates me whenever she does these things. Ok that she’s very kind, but I learned from personal experience that when you’re too kind bad people will disfruit your kindness just to harm you.

I don't know WHY the heck these guys let her do that! I believe that she is Horatio's second in comand. So yes, she should handle some of the more unimportant aspects of running the lab and the important ones when Horatio is unavailable - but finding out that Ryan has given her a Supernote is NOT unimportant. Horatio should have been told immediately. As he should have been told about all of the cover-ups she performed for Eric.

Hell, Horatio has a bad record of covering up for his team. But as the head of the lab it's HIS decision because HE is ultimately responsble. To me this is just another example of destruction of Calleigh. It was her responsibility to inform her superior, who has never shown anything but complete committment to helping his team when they are in trouble.

Another difference is that Calleigh did this once in a situation related to Ryan and it wasn't for Ryan - she made it VERY clear to Ryan what she was doing was for the lab. All cover-ups for Eric have been for Eric and the lab is a secondary consideration to Calleigh - IMHO

Well honestly, I don’t have any doubt she’s Horatio’s second in command. They never officially mentioned it, but she is!

As I mentioned earlier, I was almost sure that the CBS character biographies indicated she was and I know the Wikipedia entry from CSI Miami indicates that she is the "Assistant Dayshift Supervisor". Since Horatio is the Dayshift Supervisor, I've just always believed that Calleigh is his second-in-command. She certainly bosses the guys around like she's in charge and they respond like she is.

I hope the actors don't lurk around here and see this.

In all honestly, I’d love actors to read some of our discussions so that they can know how actually the viewers feel about what’s going on the show.
I mean they’ll surely know that 90% of the forum population love E/C, but there are lots of people who go on watching this show b/c of completely different show.

If they were to read what fans are saying I would hope that they would access many different areas, not just this site or only the Internet, to get a fair opinion of how ALL fans feel. Not all fans post her or on the Internet. In fact most don't.

Ok that I’m pretty sure that EP would start feel more self-conscious than she’s actually is once she reads that I’m among the ones who want Calleigh to leave the show (& I was the one who founded the “An Award For Emily” project :shifty: ), but I’m pretty sure that they’ll eventually understand the real intention of some kinds of post. That is if the discussion is respectful towards the actors

Good luck with you're project, Flo. Sincerely!

Oh gosh that was long, thank god RL was indulgent w/ me today :lol:

Thank goodness for the RL god, then. He/she saved me a lot of work because you, and you're wonderful post. Bless you, Flo! :lol:

 

[Florry86]

I've always thought that Ryan was very gentle and respectful the times he has had to point out mistakes to Eric since the shooting. And he gets nothing but anger and resentment in return. Eric didn't scream at Calleigh when she pointed out he mixed up the chemicals in his kit.

Well actually I wanted to punch Eric in that scene w/ Calleigh b/c I thought he looked like a childe in the kindergarten while the teacher is yelling at him also b/c he kept telling her "it's impossible" :lol:.
But yep you're absolutely right, whenever it's Ryan the one who points out his mistakes, he has to be hysterical!

God! I really miss the Calleigh I adored.

Gosh! You can't even imagine my situation

I went ahead and snipped Flo's wonderful examples to save a little space.
But, Wow! Why would I even try to add to that! Flo, you're amazing!

Oh gosh :alienblush::alienblush::alienblush:. Thank you my dear!

I don't know WHY the heck these guys let her do that! I believe that she is Horatio's second in comand. So yes, she should handle some of the more unimportant aspects of running the lab and the important ones when Horatio is unavailable - but finding out that Ryan has given her a Supernote is NOT unimportant. Horatio should have been told immediately. As he should have been told about all of the cover-ups she performed for Eric.

And trust me I'll never understand this kind of behaviour from Calleigh. I mean it really looks like she wants to protec anyone & anything but her carreer. Don't get me wrong, but sometimes your carreer comes first especially when you're going to lose your moral intergrity, the one for which people used to love you!

To me this is just another example of destruction of Calleigh. It was her responsibility to inform her superior, who has never shown anything but complete committment to helping his team when they are in trouble.

Exactly & I do think that this kind of moments helped TPTB destroying the team. Come on it is even impossible that H doesn't know anything about this stuff yet, still they want us to believe it .

If they were to read what fans are saying I would hope that they would access many different areas, not just this site or only the Internet, to get a fair opinion of how ALL fans feel. Not all fans post her or on the Internet. In fact most don't.

And that's exactly what I meant w/ my previous post

Oh gosh that was long, thank god RL was indulgent w/ me today :lol:

Thank goodness for the RL god, then. He/she saved me a lot of work because you, and you're wonderful post. Bless you, Flo! :lol:

Oh gosh, you're too lazy :lol:. You're welcome & I'm sure that I'll always be blushing b/c of your compliments

 

[luvcsimiami]

But Ryan said that he is sorry about that in the end. And Ryan said that he texted her about interrogation, but she didn't get it. It's funny, when men trying texted her something important she never get it, like it was with Eric in season 6 when he accidentally said about her and Jake to Stetler :lol:

Yes, he did and he's pretty good about that, but I think Eric is as well. My point was he didn't really learn his lesson here because he did things like this a few more times before he learned to ask questions. Like Nailed where he assumed...whether he knew Eric or not he still assumed and he was wrong. His attitude with Alexx when she posted the posters of the pedophile in the neighborhood is another example. He and Calleigh argued about that and it was Eric who told them to take it easy on each other. He's gotten much better about this and the first time I saw him not assuming was in The DeLuca Motel when he was trying to help Eric. So yes he has gotten better.

You do make a great point about Calleigh. You're so right why isn't she keeps missing the most important messages from these guys. :lol: Is it too much to ask for her to check her phone.

Yeah, i think Ryan understand that he did stupid thing and not asked help from Delko. But Eric was pretty pissed off when Ryan give him bag with paper :lol: It was hard puzzle And i should say, that Calleigh just more patient with newbie, step by step she tell him what he did wrong and it's never happened again. Ryan never stole evidence anymore, Ryan never talk with Erica about case anymore. Yeah, he work on tv after Burned, then again Calleigh was the one who was hard with him and tell him whole truth, that he hurt many people. And again he did right thing and did whole paper work (with Natalia's help).

Yep. Not disputing it. Just saying that it's interesting how a lot of Ryan fans can cut Ryan some slack even when he's done wrong but Eric is hardly ever cut any slack no matter what the reason is. That was where I was going with that. I'm not a Ryan fan but I can see where he's done good and bad. I also don't blame almost every single thing on this character just because I don't like him. No, I'm not directing that at you just trying to be clear by what I mean.

Right now I really do feel that E/C is getting blamed for almost every bad thing that happens on the show lately or complained about. Sometimes they get blamed when they aren't in the scene. I mean I was stunned that some blamed them for Ryan's torture. Ryan's motives no matter whether they are good or bad are always chalked up to he had good intentions (even if he hasn't had the best of intentions) Eric's motives even if he had good intentions are always seen as bad. Whether the character is liked or not I think it's interesting that the view toward Eric is always that he's a jerk, no matter what, no excuses. I've only seen a few say, you know at the end of the day Eric really is a good guy, emotional or anger issues aside. I think this bothers me so much because Eric was there before Ryan and I'm just tired of him being painted as the bad guy all the time...even when he's trying not to be. It gets old.

IMO, they both was wrong in that situation. And Ryan have his consequences after that (Burned), he should go to Eliot and said that it was his supernote, but Calleigh take that fall and he didn't learn his lesson well. Ryan is character who always faced with consequences (we still didn't saw consequences after 7x20, but knowing tptb they remember it in next season... I hope i wrong), but Eric never. Calleigh take fall and Eric didn't ever think that he NEED check his professional skills. He goes to shrink, it's good, but why he don't go to criminalists lessons, just for case.

Ok...wow. This is the FIRST time I have ever seen you say this and it's actually nice to know. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but this example is just one where I don't like the double standard. The sitatuations were different but the actions/results were the same. Calleigh covered for BOTH of them. Why is Ryan still a man and Eric isn't? Yeah, just don't see it here. My opinion is if we're going to go there then they are both not men for not stepping up regardless of the reason why Calleigh did what she did.

I do agree that they are both wrong and you have a very valid point. I don't agree that Eric thinks he doesn't NEED to have his skills checked. Florry86 said something similar about how he doesn't even think he won't even admit that he still has a problem. Not to blame everything on the writing but this is where I think the writing has done the character a disservice.

In the episode where the couple is having an all out divorce fight and Eric's compentency is called into question, Calleigh comes to check on him and he tells her that 'Everything that lawyer says was correct.' He admits and that the lawyer was right about no one checking to make sure he could still do the job etc. That's an acknowledgment no matter how you slice it. Another acknowledgement is when he mixed up the solutions. He told Calleigh he knew he had been a little slow lately. Now he's not admitting it to the right people but he has acknowledged it. Why hasn't he gotten any help...(1) they haven't written it in the script (2) He has and they haven't shown us yet.

No, kidnapper take his phone and drop call (i don't know how it write right) and Eric stop calling. Like russians fans who dislike Ryan said "maybe he was on date? if they start search him, they can find him in bed with girl". 1) He said that wanna talk with Cameron West and he probably call them and say that he talk or not talk with that guy. But he didn't and they never asked him about it 2) Hummer, very expensive car don't comeback to lab parking place and we still don't know what happened with car. 3) On next day he coming with cut on lip, with missing tooth and no one never mentioned that he not answered on phone day before. If they think he was with girl, he probably like hard-sex :lol: Didn't know it about him. The only one thing i can say: it was very, very bad writing with continuation between both eps.

Oh dear, ok scenario three is just not even right :lol: Agree that there wasn't good continuation and the consistency in actions was pretty bad as well. I know the russian guy took his phone...all I'm saying is it doesn't mean at some point during the torture that he couldn't have had Ryan call in to tell them he was fine. Otherwise the reactions by EVERYONE not just E/C don't make sense. Not one of them asked him why he didn't answer his phone the night before. Again, it just seems a bit much that everyone focuses on E/C being to blame here when Horatio didn't look for him, Natalia didn't, etc. Not one of them did, and whether Eric was told to try him again or not (which he did just before the episode ended) Horatio had to have called off the search at some point as I just don't see Eric dropping the ball otherwise even if it was just Ryan. Contrary to popular belief he is not that callous. Remember this is the guy that checked on him in Cyberlebrity when he was mobbed and said out of his own mouth that first Ryan was right and his joke was in bad taste, and second that he just wanted to make sure Ryan was ok.

Don't worry, it was a pleasure also b/c I knew you were going to understand what I was trying to say :thumbsup:

You guys rock!

I know you weren't referring to me, but actually I'm one of those people who would prefer Calleigh to leave rather than Eric, just b/c I think that her character's dignity has been destroyed & I don't want TPTB to harm her character even more than they've already done. Also, I'm a fan of Emily Procter &, as I mentioned above, I do think that destroying her character can lead to very harsh reviews, something which I'm not looking for as I want her to get an award, something she won't ever get as long as she keeps playing a character like Calleigh considering the reviews CSI:Miami tends to get.

I would also select Calleigh as the one to depart. I think the character has lost all integrity and I lost respect for her long ago. Also, as I stated previously, I just don't think there is anywhere left to go for her
character. I used to be a huge Emily Procter fan. Not so much any longer. But I agree with Flo. If Ms. Procter ever hopes to receive acknowledgement of her acting abilities, it won't be for playing Calleigh. If Calleigh were the role she was to receive any awards for, they would have come in the first couple of seasons when Calleigh was new and unique. She needs to move on and she needs to do it in a timely manner. As beautiful as she is, she is in a harsh and cold business where the aging process, most unfairly for women in particular, is not kindly looked on.

I can see where you guys are coming from and I do agree on some level that she might be the most likely of the two to go but I also think that Eric's character is seen so much of the bad guy and partially blamed for Calleigh's change that most people would probably start liking her again if HE were out of the picture instead of her.

As far as EP and getting an award, you're right. I think they've changed her so much from the beginning that if they are looking for unique earlier seasons are a much better example.

Let's say that I kinda agree w/ you.
While people can eventually cope w/ the departure of just one of them, it would be really difficult to cope w/ the absence of 2 very important characters of the show like Eric & Calleigh.
As much as I came to a point where I can't stand Eric's view & I always criticsize Calleigh's behaviour, I do have to say that they were very important in the first 5 seasons, along w/ H, they were the soul of the show.
Ok Ryan is always growing in me, but still he has to go on like this at least for another year, then, probably, we all should be able cope w/ the absence of both Eric & Calleigh ...that's for the poeple who, like me, have been watching the show since its very first episode.

I agree that it would be extremely difficult to lose both characters at one time. It would be a serious blow to lose one of them. But I think they could recover from losing one of them. Ratings would take a hit for a while but as Orla_Dark indicated, while some fans would leave, others may come on board. I just think that Calleigh is the logical character to leave.

They were integral to giving birth to, and the amazing success of, CSI Miami. But the dynamics of the show have changed so radically that it isn't unwise to consider that fresh stories are necessary. If they aren't able to successfully achieve it with the current characters, and I don't think that have, it's time for some of the old characters to make room for new characters with new potential. I know a lot of people hate Horatio/Caruso, but that character IS the most identified with the show, most polls show him the most popular character, so like it or not, to lose that character/actor, might not be the best way to go.

Ryan is so humanly flawed. He was so young and eager when he started. He's made some REAL mistakes, but aside from the huge gambling issue, for which he paid dearly, I think he learns from his mistakes. Besides that, I don't think he's ever been made to feel like he's one of the team. Only Horatio and Alex have ever shown consistant care and concern for Ryan.

Agree again that I think it would be a blow to lose one or both. But CSI has shown that it can be done and the show can still survive. They've lost three. However, I am proof that it was definately with a new fanbase because as a prior fan I don't watch it now. I stopped watching after the Grissom/Sara hookup. I just never really liked Sara and I was getting kind of tired of it anyway but that was really the impetus for me (Yep, I really do get why there are non E/C fans. I just happen to think these guys are more believable. ) I also hated that they got rid of Warrick who was my favorite character. So it just goes to show that, yeah they could probably survive but the fan base would be totally different.

As for Ryan I do think he needs more time in order to be able to carry the show without either Calleigh or Eric to play off of but by that point it wouldn't really matter to me since he's not why I started watching, nor is he why I keep watching.

As much as his character is flawed and he hasn't really been accepted by everyone I have to say that Horatio has aided and abetted in making that process harder. I know folks say Eric is the main perpetrator but he isn't the only one. When Horatio wants to deceive the team (for their own good or not) the first person he turns to is Ryan because he knows he's not as close to the team as he should be. That can be seen as good and bad. I don't necessarily think it's a good thing that Ryan is the first one H thinks of when he needs someone to betray someone else's trust within the team. It just makes Ryan look worse in my eyes because you feel like just when you start to trust him, he gives you another reason not to. There's also an underlying message there that Ryan is very good at deceiving and being manipulative those that are close to him. Not the most positive image you want your boss to have of you even if it is law enforcement. I know on some level there's this feeling that it's really good because Horatio trusts him, but on the other side of that is the thought that Horatio trust him to always be able to betray a team member's trust at any given moment. I don't see this as the greatest thing...but that's just me.

See? I used to enjoy Eric whenever he got mad at Ryan in s3 just b/c it was so natural. I mean Ryan was the one who replaced his beloved Speedle & it's was absolutely normal that Eric used to be pissed off whenever he was w/ Ryan.
Things changed, for me, when Ryan frst pointed out that Delko put a double evidence signal on a single blood dorp since at the time Delko was still suffering from his bullet. Ryan warned him about the double vision trouble & Eric just got mad at him. Then it has always been like this between the 2 guys. No! Sooner or later Eric has to trust Ryan & has to consider him as a friend instead of being always hysterical

I agree that some resentment initially was normal. Heck, even Alexx was very standoffish at first with Ryan. But Eric has consistently hammered on Ryan. Eric may show concern or assist Ryan once in a while, but a lot of times it's begruding. Eric helping Ryan in Nailed always appeared to be more out of guilt to me than Eric actually caring about Ryan as a person.

I've always thought that Ryan was very gentle and respectful the times he has had to point out mistakes to Eric since the shooting. And he gets nothing but anger and resentment in return. Eric didn't scream at Calleigh when she pointed out he mixed up the chemicals in his kit.

I agree that it's time for these guys to bury the hatchett. It's old. Even AR said so in an interview so maybe he's also tired of being cast as the 'evil' one. Still Ann Donahue thinks it's great to show that they are not all one big happy family. Ok, Fine but why does it always Eric having to be the on to spazz? Honestly, they've shown him to be pretty forgiving of others...just not Ryan and that's the rub for me because yeah Ryan has done some nice things for him but the guy just isn't the wonderful saint he's made out to be. You two might be surprised that I actually didn't like Eric's resentment of Ryan at first. I thought he should at least understand that it wasn't Ryan's fault that Speed wasn't there and give the new guy a chance. I kind of also felt that he did that at the beginning until Ryan gave him an excuse to start acting like a butthead.

I think in Nailed there was a combination of guilt and concern but at least he did step up and was willing to take the blame. I also think that a picture is worth a thousand words and his reactions to when Ryan was in trouble showed that he cared. I looked at it as a sort of shock treatment for Eric who may have realized he had spent so much time and energy disliking Ryan because he wasn't Speed that he never stopped to think how he would feel if Ryan wasn't there and someone else had to come in to replace Ryan.

I also agree that Eric's reaction to the blood drop was over the top. I do think he was mad at Calleigh when she pointed out a mistake but more embarrassed then anything. I think he was just sick of his mistakes being pointed out and taking everything personally. Also, if you're as meticulous as Ryan is that's gotta chafe when someone who you helped to train is now point out your mistake. I also agree that Ryan was a lot more gentle with Eric after he understood about Marisol and after Eric got shot. However, I think Eric did a good job of finally understanding that and a good example is the DeLuca motel. Yeah he had his little say about 'what gives you the cause to interfere in my life.' but after Ryan asks him if someone is gunning for him Eric tells him the truth. He didn't yell, he didn't pitch a fit he let him know what was going on. I don't see this kind of exchange happening before then.

Gotta agree not to mention that it was stupid they just lost her father in the famous TPTB's continuity pool. I mean he was the only good storyline they had for her in 7 seasons? Are you kidding? :scream:

I loved every single appearance of Calleigh's father. That was a very special story for her character and a real shame that TPTB didn't see that. Another amazing storyline possibility they dropped was Horatio being brought back to NY to answer for the killing of his father. The cross-over potential with CSI NY was unlimited. Boggles the mind....

You won't get any argument from me on this one. It's just downright sad that they took an opportunity and let it go right down the drain. On both fronts, with Calleigh's father and Horatio's father. Go figure. Maybe they will pull it out in Season 8. One can only hope.

Actually I hated this storyline just b/c it was ridiculous that Marisol had a cancer. Don’t get me wrong, but please tell me who on heart does chemotherapy & has all the hair Alana De La Garza had on her head! This was just ridiculous & disrespectful towards whoever has cancer!
As for Eric, IDK I kinda liked him throughout this storyline, but you’re also right b/c she was an adult & he didn’t have to protect her also b/c wasn’t she supposed to be older than Eric? I remember “Kill Zone” when Eric told H that his sister, Marisol, wanted him to come back home. Now this normally happens when the sister is older, also b/c it was Calleigh’s mother who told her to come back home.

Marisol's cancer and the Horatio/Marisol romance were always horrible for me. I barely made it through that storyline.

Yep, I wondered the same thing when I was watching and thinking can't you guys be a bit more realistic. I also liked both Eric and Horatio in the storyline but yeah they did go back and forth with who was older and the only thing about the Horatio storyline that got me was the fact that this man likes really young women.:lol:

Ok, I've got more to say ( I know surprise, surprise) but I'll have to finish up a bit later. Thanks guys for keeping the thread going. This is great discussion...well at least I'm having fun :lol:

 

[luvcsimiami]

Honestly, I just don’t see how he can protect her also b/c whenever he’s in trouble, she’s the first one there to help him & to end up in the same trouble, if not a worse one

Ok. As much as I hate to agree with you you're exactly right. Whenever he tries to protect her it just goes horribly wrong. I think that's one of the reasons why they show him not telling her everything. At least that way he will be the only one responsible for the results.

That’s exactly the reason why I don’t like the changes they’ve wrote for Calleigh (it’s even worse than the E/C storyline for me). I mean ok that she had to mature a little bit more, as anyone else, & ok that, maybe, they wanted to put her at the same level of H, but this is not how you should develop a character.
I would have preferred to see her dad dying b/c of cirrhosis of the liver, that would have been a great way for her to mature. Still I think there was no need to mature her, especially w/ the storylines they used for her. At this point, I’m really afraid they’re gonna bring back our old Duke just to let him die in front of her, in this case I’m think I’ll be ready to see her committing a suicide!
No, if you asked me, this isn’t the way to develop a character, this is the way to destroy it!

I do think they have done a bit of a job on Calleigh and personally it's an insult to women everywhere that they show this strong, independent woman losing her mind when it comes to men. I mean is it too much to ask that she keeps her wits in spite of the fact that she has a boyfriend. Apparently it is becaue she lost a lot of ground with me when she told Jake being involved with him always held ulterior motives for him yet she hooked up with him anyway...whatever. I don't get it.

Actually they did the same thing to Natalia by having her hook back up with her ex-husband. I mean seriously, this is an insult to the battered women who get away and stay away. Having known a few in my life time this was so farfetched I was actually stunned. Not only that they managed to make Valera look just as stupid because she knowingly went out with an abuser. They aren't saying much for the women on this show when it comes to men and that's just sad.

That’s would be the only possible way to save both Calleigh & Eric. Another way to save Calleigh is that she’s always been UC in our lab & she has never been an actual member of the lab & now it’s time for her to leave!

Ooh, wow. That’s a good one, I would hate it but that could work. :thumbsup:

Well OFC, when you don’t feel part of the team also b/c you don’t know anything about your colleague’s sister ( you didn’t even know anything about her existence) you have the right to have doubt on a person who shows up w/ marijuana!
Let’s not forget that the same thing was done by Calleigh when she first met Marisol & thought she was one of Eric’s girls!!! It’s exactly the same thing.

Agreed and I didn’t say Ryan didn’t have a right to be pissed. I just didn’t like how he conveyed his dislike. Anymore than I like how Eric displays his.
As for Calleigh I really wanted to smack her here since as a friend she should have asked well before that incident what was going on with him. This is another case of something just not making sense. :scream: Come to think of it Ryan may have been trying to fit in but it seemed to me for a while that Eric lost Calleigh to Ryan as far as friendship goes and really only had H and Natalia for the whole Marisol thing. Now in Season 7 we are seeing the same thing with Ryan. Is it too much to ask for Calleigh and Horatio to be able to cope with these two guys a little bit better? Never thought I would say it but Natalia gets the award for being there for both of these guys. H gets an F and so does Calleigh.[/quote]

Ok let’s think at some examples:
- when he told Stetler about Calleigh & Jake. The first thing he thought was to phone Calleigh & tell her about his mistake! Now, don’t get me wrong, but if he really thought Jake was a jerk, he shouldn’t have had any doubt on doing the right thing for her. I mean he was sure Jake was a jerk & he was sure to love Calleigh. He did what he did b/c of it! His conscience was absolutely clean in that moment & once Calleigh found out what had just happened, he would have had the occasion to reveal his feelings for her. But his first instinct was to phone her & warn her about everything b/c he knew he made a bad mistake. But if he loves her so much he didn’t make any mistake!! Still he didn’t understand it.

Well, this one I looked at in a different way. Regardless of the fact that he liked Jake or not, I think the instinct to call Calleigh to let her know what happened was so that she wouldn’t get the impression he told IAB because he was jealous. Let’s face it that’s not the way to win someone over. Jerk or not, if you love someone you want them to be happy whether it’s with you or not. Not only that but he has been investigated by IAB enough times to know how it feels and I just don’t think he wanted her to be blindsided. I would say he did make a mistake in spite of the fact that he loved her. It wasn’t anyone’s business who she was dating and he didn’t want to be the one telling tales. I actually saw him taking responsibility and saying, hey I screwed up thought you should know. Being immature would have been him making a beeline to tattle tale that Jake and Calleigh were dating just so he could break them up. In Stand Your Ground he even tells Calleigh maybe he was wrong about the guy. Those actions and comments don't smack of someone who is spineless, weak, or not a man IMO. I know, I know we aren't ever likely to agree on that...:lol:

The problem w/ the proficiencies, is that Eric didn’t care about her carreer. He let her retake her proficiencies (btw it would have been much nicer to see if she hadn’t pass the exam) b/c he knew that his mistake put her in danger. Calleigh told him so! His cheat sheet put her in danger, it was b/c of that sheet that she was kidnapped & had to temper w/ evidences. But he will never admit something is not quite ok w/ his brain b/c he’s too self-confident. But a real man would have politely admitted he had put her in danger! Look he also said that once he finds out that he put a person in danger b/c of his actions, he would be ready to resign, but “hello Delko’s brain, she just told you put someone in danger & oh boy that person is your beloved Calleigh!”. Ryan at least admitted his mistake & admitted

Ok. I can see your point about his not caring about her career. I don’t think that’s the case but let’s just say I buy that for a minute. I happen to think it’s really out of character for him to do this at all and that’s why I hated the storyline. Eric usually almost always takes responsibility for his actions:
-Messing up a case for Frank because he was helping a victim. Later helped Frank get case back on track.
-Toothing incident – He told H he lost his badge and dealt with the backlash
-Marijuana incident – Didn’t deny he was a buyer and then explained his actions when everything hit the fan. Even apologized to H after the fact for not coming to him sooner so he took responsibility.
-Carmen Henny - He wanted to protect the lab, Horatio and himself. He actually said this lab can't stand anymore scrutiny. So even though he tried to do the right thing and no good deed went unpunished in this instance he took responsiblity and then did what he needed to do to make the problem go away.

So to have him suddenly not take responsibility, most especially when it's Calleigh is just the writers jacking up the character. :scream:

Also, I disagree that it’s his fault or his mistake put Calleigh in danger. Sorry but yes, he took notes and yes he dropped them and Calleigh picked them up at a scene. At this point no one was in danger. Her life was put in danger by Cooper when HE decided to take what he had seen and put it on the internet for the world to see and then posted Calleigh’s phone number for anyone to call her. I don’t get how Eric’s notes = his fault Calleigh got kidnapped or put in danger and Cooper gets off scot free without any responsibility. The fact is no one would have known about the notes but Calleigh and Eric if it hadn’t been for Cooper. Sure maybe Eric should have left the notes at home but how was he supposed to know Cooper was going to plaster them all over the site for the world to see? It’s almost like blaming a published author for writing a murder scene in his/her book and then someone takes that scene and commits an actual murder. So some people would blame the author for writing it, even though he’s not the one that committed the crime. How is an author supposed to know that a psycho would take their idea and use it? They wouldn’t. I use this example because it’s actually happened in real life. The author was blamed by a few but he wasn’t the one on trial. The one that committed the crime was. Not only that but in this case the author wrote the book with the express purpose of having the work published. There was no such motive in Eric writing the notes. As far as Eric, he had no idea Cooper would do what he did. The criminal even said we got the idea from the website. Well if the website hadn't been created, the picture of her looking at the notes hadn’t been posted on the website, and her phone number didn't get posted who is to say they would have nabbed her to help cover up their crime? They woudn't have. IMO, Eric didn’t publish the site so he isn’t the one who put her at risk.

Now with all that said, Eric dropped the ball when he didn’t go to Stetler when she was pulled off of a case. Yep, that’s all on him. No arguments there. So, yes his notes put her career at risk, and that was a result of them being published on a website that he didn't create. I think his responsibility ends there. IMO Cooper is the one that put her in danger…why the heck should Eric resign because Cooper was stupid

He mentioned more than once that he’d love a big family, but when Natalia told him that probably she was pregnant, he totally freaked out!

Well, of course he freaked out. He didn’t mean he wanted a family right then.:lol: I wouldn’t have believed it if he had acted overjoyed and said let’s start picking out baby names. He was still playing the field. Besides that Natalia freaked out as well. I wanted to smack both of them. I mean the fact that they were acting like a bunch of horny teenagers made them both look silly. I will say though that after his initial freak out he did at least take responsibility and say ‘What are we going to do?” After Natalia tells him what saying that meant I think he even made some comment about she didn’t do it on her own.

When Calleigh asked him what the hell he wanted from her, he was just “uh”. “Uh”? You’ve been chasing her like w/ puppy dogs for more than 2 years & once she offers you the silver plate, you’re “uh”???

Yep. Didn’t like his response here either. However, the last time he told her how he felt she ended up becoming Jake’s girlfriend that afternoon. So now that she’s standing before him, it’s not as easy to muster up the courage the second time. I know I would have thought twice. No sooner does he not say anything and she’s off riding horses with Terrance. :scream: (Since when did Calleigh suddenly become desperate for just any man?) Also, Sink or Swim said it best. At that point he knew ‘danger was following him around’ so he had to think twice about bringing her into that. I don’t call that someone being less of man. I call that someone actually thinking about someone else first. I also liked the fact that he was hesitant here because to me it showed that he was no longer the horrible player he used to be. As much as I liked the pre-bullet Eric I’m sorry he was just a bit too free if you know what I mean. Learning to keep it in his pants was a challenge. Geez!:alienblush:

I also don’t see the puppy dog thing. During and after Jake, I saw someone doing their job and being there when she needed his help. That’s about it. Ok so AR does really have those kind of puppy dog eyes but I didn’t really see this guy pining. Other than his little hyperventilating fit he had when he saw them kiss in reception he kept his head down and did his job.

I’m just going to address a few things as RL isn’t being as kind to me here so I can’t cut and paste like I want to. Here goes.

I think you commented on the Eric switch up of the chemicals when he first got back. I have to agree that Eric was acting like a little kid but I cut him some slack as I figured he just had to be mortified. Ok and sorry I have to use this example at least he had an excuse here.

Remember Ryan when he made the luminol mistake because he was trying to be a big shot and almost threw the case because he screwed up the only piece of evidence they had. He threw a bit of a temper tantrum himself. Not much of an excuse other than he was still running around with the cameras and I think this is where he learned his lesson and finally stopped trying to be a media hound…well until he got fired.

As far as the supervisor thing (I knew you guys were going to laugh at my examples) I didn’t say it was a great one I was just correcting my earlier statement that Eric hadn’t run an investigation. Obviously because Horatio was out and Calleigh was missing the ball fell to him. My point was if he is as incompetent as a lot of people think because of ALL the mistakes he’s supposedly made (I say supposedly because I can only count three (mixing solutions, double marking blood drop, and the proficiencies) then they could have easily had Ryan run the investigation. Also, they could have just as easily had Stetler or some unknown person who ranks as high as Horatio take over the investigation.

Still I guess whether he’s the subordinate or not it’s not unusual for bosses to become involved with their employees. Ill-advised, probably but it’s common in real life and I don’t think it’s so far fetched on CSI Miami. I say it’s gray in Miami for me at least. I’m not discounting that Calleigh is second-in-command. I’m doubting that just because she is doesn’t mean that Eric reports to her. I can only use a real life example to really explain what I mean. I used to work for this company where I had a team of people I supervised. I had a co-worker who hadn’t been there as long as me but she had a different title and we ended up being each other’s backup. Now when my boss was out of the office I called the shots. However, my co-worker did not report to me. We both reported to my boss’s boss. Now, any projects that I worked on that she was a part of I called the shots and she assisted, but I was not her supervisor. Any projects she worked she called the shots, and I assisted but she wasn’t my supervisor. I was the one folks came to when the boss was out but major decisions went to a senior manager that we both reported to. OK for Miami this is probably a bit farfetched but I can actually see this being the case. Maybe because I’ve worked in an environment like it.

You guys are probably right and she is his supervisor I just don’t happen to think it’s as big of a deal as say Calleigh dating Horatio. I understand fraternization rules are to prevent sexual harassment but it doesn’t change the fact that when you work in close proximity with people and know them for a long time people can become attracted to one another. I think these relationships can work based on the maturity of the individuals themselves and while I know non-shippers can’t stand it I think that for the most part these two have been pretty professional (Presumed
Guilty and Divorce Party are good examples) As a matter of fact you really wouldn’t know these two were a couple in those episodes. Now Flight Risk to me was just silly on all counts. Why is it necessary for Ryan and Natalia to gossip and talk about something that isn’t their business. Why does Eric have to daydream? Yes, he recovered pretty well and you wouldn’t have known he was daydreaming by his response to Calleigh but it just seemed out of place. Now I know people do this in real life in EVERY job classification including law enforcement (even though a lot of non-shippers acted as if it was the most reprehensible thing in the world for him to be doing) but it just wasn’t typical Miami and they should have left it alone. I just saw it as one more way to put Eric in a bad light and wouldn’t you know it I was right.

As far as the as the actors visiting the boards I would hope they would check all forums as well. Still they are human and they have feelings like everyone else. Some of the more less than generous comments had me going ouch so I can only imagine how they may or may not feel.

I do appreciate your comments Florry and Delynn about the dislike board and there is no need to apologize. As I said before it was my own fault for butting in like I did. You’re exactly right in that it shouldn’t be a ship debate. The problem is there is the shipper thread which is all about how wonderful they are and then there is the dislike thread which is all about how despised they are. It would be nice to have a happy medium thread where both sides could discuss both sides and see each other’s side without starting WWIII. I actually do think there are two sides and I can actually see both, even though I happen to like E/C (ok Love E/C). I am not blinded to some of the major issues with the characters as individuals that make them seem less credible as those individuals and as couples. That doesn’t mean that what they have can’t work, it just means the writers need to plug a lot of holes and try harder, IMO. Honestly, I just wish they could be cut some slack and the writers just need to work on making them seem more credible.

I don’t know how to explain it but sometimes, like even now with watching an episode I’ll see something and instead of enjoying it as a shipper moment I actually groan and go ‘well why did you guys have to put that in there…that’s just more fuel to the I wish they would get rid of these two fire.’ So I find that I don’t enjoy it as much. That’s not anyone’s fault but mine because I want the writers to continue the relationship but to at least get it right so that so many people just don’t dislike these two who to me are so integral to the show. A good example was the bachelor spoof episode. They had one little moment in there. I thought it was pretty cute, short to the point and it fit. Then they went back to the case. Well, even that one moment was begrudged. It was one scene...just one with them together and well it still wasn't ok. IDK it’s almost like they can’t even be on the screen together or by themselves without some sort of negative thing said about them. That’s another reason why I wonder how long they will be on Miami if it would really be better for one or both of them to just go. I don’t think they can go backwards and I don’t want their friendship destroyed to the point where it’s nothing but drama all the time but a happy medium would be nice. The problem is a happy medium would only satisfy shippers and not those that really, really, really dislike these guys. Does that make sense? Not trying to be morbid or attack anyone here I guess I just see that no matter what the writer’s try to convey with these two even if it has nothing to do with their personal relationship it’s not always viewed in that light and that’s a shame because these two actors are really talented. They have to be or else they wouldn’t generate the discussion they do:lol:

 

[racefh853629]

So my question is this....would it really be a better miami without one or both of these characters?
...
If not, why and what one thing or combination of things made you come to that conclusion.

Or, do you think it's a simple matter of fixing the team interaction itself and go back to their S1-S3 formula?

I'm not a huge fan of Eric and Calleigh (in fact, some of the reason I don't watch as much as I used to is because of them), but I don't think I can see a Miami without them. They're as integral to the show as David Caruso, to me.

To me, the first 2 seasons were the best seasons. I loved the team, the cast, the stories. Everything. It just seemed to work so well. Like someone mentioned (and I forgot who it was, so I'm sorry), they was a palpable team. They cared about each other, they were there for each other, and they were completely comfortable with each other. I think the most uncomfortable character in the first two seasons was Megan Donner.

Now, when I watch the show, I see a team that doesn't work as a team. A team that doesn't trust each other. Calleigh constantly trying to mediate battles between Eric and Ryan. And all of this just bothers me, mostly because I miss that team that works together.

Would it be better if Eric or Calleigh left? Not unless they left together. Eric alone would end up killing Ryan. Calleigh alone would miss Eric too much. And as I mentioned before, they're as integral to this show as H, in my mind. I don't think they should leave.

By the same token, I don't think they can just go back to what they had in seasons 1-3, for a few reasons. 1- Speed's not there, and he was a big part of the interactions in seasons 1 and 2. 2- Too much has happened since then that it seems/feels like the characters would never be able to look past to get back to where they were. 3- I don't think that part is something tptb are concerned about, because to me, the storylines and coming up with something new is more important to them than fixing character interactions.

I think probably the biggest reason they can't go back is Horatio's newfound justice complex. And by that I mean that he's the absolute beacon of justice. In several cases lately, he's become judge, jury, and executioner. In the beginning, I don't think we saw that side of him ever. It was more about him being gentle with victims and caring for his team.

And about that. Horatio's started to adapt a more, "every victim's a suspect" attitude, which makes sense in a way, but I miss the old Horatio. The one who would give his jacket to a scared, shaking girl who just walked into her own personal hell. Instead, we have a Horatio who doesn't even really check on his own son after Kyle's nearly killed in the explosion in Autopsy. Ryan was more concerned with the kid than Horatio was.

Mostly, while I'd like to see everything go back to the way it was, I know that can't ever happen. Too much has happened for them to go back to the way they were. But it'd be nice if they could get them to semblance of a team that cares for and trusts one another.