I have to agree with racefh853629 on a lot of things. Can tptb go back to the S1-S3 formula? Yes and no. I believe where tptb lost their way is where a lot of successful people lose their way when they forget what got them there in the first place. In the beginning, there was good, smart, FAIRLY accurate (by Hollywood's standards) science. The characters WERE characters. They were a team, they trusted each other, and there were more characters interacting. There was a lot more attention to detail and accuracy--little things like Calleigh braiding her hair. She looked both smart and professional. She wore clothes that didn't make her look like a dominatrix. The team had its issues, of course, but there has to be a little reality. Well, we all know what happened by S5. Horatio started getting dark and distant, the E/C relationship started taking on too much of a life of its own, and what was once good writing and good interaction with the team turned into just another flash-bang, shoot-em-up, testosterone flick. Seems like normal people weren't getting killed anymore--just trust fund kids strung out on drugs and spending their life in high-end clubs. The science and police procedure became laughable. Hubby and I laughed ourselves silly in "Resurrection" when a guy in his prison jumpsuit produced his own cell phone with Horatio's picture on it. That, along with his shoelaces and everything else would have been taken from him when he was processed. Or else a booking clerk would have been fired. Granted, everybody knows I'm a Rick Stetler fan. Seems tptb became penny-wise and pound-foolish by cutting corners and leaving IAB out of as many episodes as possible. Finally they got a clue and brought him back. No wonder the team doesn't trust each other if THEY are the ones questioning each other about procedure and what happened! HELLO! That's IAB's job! But I guess they were spending too much money on the fancy pyrotechnics. They've been getting better in recent episodes. I can accept the fact that some characters are different now (Hey, life happens, right?) if the writing is good, they use lab techs where they SHOULD use lab techs, and let the lab techs have a storyline once in a while. Pay attention to the story arcs (Ryan doesn't act much like somebody with OCD tendencies, and what happened to Calleigh's dad?). I'm okay with the E/C relationship as long as there's balance. They've gotten much better about that recently. Hopefully they won't forget again. Consider having more story lines that are unique to the Miami area BESIDES drugs and gangs. Not sure you guys realize what you're doing to Miami's tourism industry! If you have good writing, balance between your story arcs, attention to detail and believable plots, I think many fans would be willing to overlook some things.
I know what you're saying, racefh853629. I've watched this show since the first episode and Eric and Calleigh are a intregal part of what made CSI Miami the success that it is. I truly believe the show could stand losing one of those characters. I don't want to see both go (as I've already stated, I would get rid of Calleigh.) Even one would be a trauma for the fans of that character. But I believe the show would survive and possibly be better for the opportunity to move on to a new and much better storyline. They've made E/C such an important part of the current show, there is no way to turn back now and keep both characters, IMHO. (And I know there are a lot of people who don't WANT to turn back and who want MORE E/C.) Agreed. Although I would include most of season 3. Exactly. I don't know when the writers decided that Calleigh was designated babysitter for Ryan and Eric. If they worked for me, disciplinary action would have been taken against all three by now for a plethora of infractions that I've already complained about previously. I realize that with Horatio dispensing the disciplinary action it would be a little like the pot calling the kettle black, but when all is said and done he IS their boss. While he needs to get some of his major issues under control, his behavior doesn't give his employees the permission to act like idiots. I truly believe that leading by example is the best way to go (I had to get a handle on a lot of bad habits when I became a supervisor) - and Horatio used to be the perfect boss in that respect - but these people are supposed to be professional adults and they shouldn't be able to use the playground mentality that, "the boss isn't being perfect so why do I have to behave" (stomps foot petulantly!). With the writer's on CSI Miami? Hell, they'll just write that Calleigh and Eric have a horrible, knock down - drag out fight one day and the next day the romance never happened. Sorry. I guess that was a bit snarky. But continuity is not the strong point of the writers on CSI Miami. I would hate to see both go at the same time, but I respectfully disagree with you in that the show couldn't find a way to deal with the loss of one or the other. Other top rated shows have lost hugely popular characters and found a way to make it work. I think CSI Miami could as well. I agree that they can't just start writing the characters like they did in the beginning. Too much has happened. They've already insulted the viewer often enough by their lack of continuity. But I do believe that these characters can start a slow return to their basic selves. The original values, integrity and professionalism that made them so special in the beginining. A lot of what you say about Horatio is very valid. He is my favorite character and I've had some major issues with the destruction of his character beginning with the Marisol storyline and the horrible, vengeful, robotic character he became. First, I never saw enough of a connection with those two to understand Horatio's uncontrolable need for revenge and then his never-ending mourning that affected everything he did. But in the last couple of seasons, particularly this season (with emphasis on the latter half of the season) I'm truly seeing Horatio turn it around. Not so much with the team maybe, but certainly with the victims. I, too, was pretty put out that we didn't see Horatio checking on Kyle after the explosion in the morgue, or that we didn't see him giving comfort to Kyle after Julia lost it and shot up the morgue. While they indicate Horatio was there for Kyle with statements he makes to other characters, what a freaking lost opportunity to captalize on the natural chemistry between Caruso and Ellingson. It happens a lot on CSI Miami that the audience is left to fill in the blanks. That is simply not good writing. Eliminate an explosion or two and get back to caring about the characters! Stop making the audience do your job by forcing them to fill in what they think happened because the writers were too busy with their favorite couple or with gun fights and explosions to give us the proper closure to a scene. I hear ya! I think the best we can hope for is that they make some attempt to bring the team back together in season 8. Then again, we've been complaining and whining about the loss of the team dynamic for a couple of seasons and there has been no acknowledgement or attempt to change anything in that area. If anything it's gotten worse. Either TPTB have blinders on (and I've seen evidence that may be the case), or they simply don't care that something that was once so precious to their audience has been lost (I think a case could be made for the, "I don't care." school of thought as well.)
Well let's just put it in this way . Both guys have made lots of mistakes during their life & in most of the occasions they realised it. The problems come whenever it's time to pay the consequences. While Ryan was covered by Calleigh once, he's always been the first one to pay for his errors. When he used too much luminol, he was the CSI who got reported for destroying an evidence & immediatly asked help to Calleigh so that they could go on w/ the investigation. Same thing happened w/ the whole gambling stuff. He was the one who got fired since he broke protocol. And I'm pretty sure that he already paid for his error in "WISC" when Delko yelled at him & Calleigh didn't care about him leaving the lab in that moment b/c they were both mad at him. But once Eric is in trouble, he isn't the first one to pay for his troubles. It has always been Calleigh. He may understood that his cheat sheet put her in danger, but he's never been able to literally face so that he could retake his proficiencies instead of Calleigh Actually I've never read this kind of post, but I agree w/ you since in this case you're completely right. I only blame them for some aspect & they're all about when they're together in a scene. Since when they're separated they tend to work in a professional way, IMHO. Let's say that at first I wanted Ryan literally out of the show since I couldn't stand him & I always defended Delko, but I have to admit that I've always seen people defending Eric Delko just b/c he's the older CSI there & he's the one who has more experience or just b/c Ryan Wolfe replaced Speedle. Let me just say this: - Timothy Speedle is dead & won't ever come back. It is useless to blame a new guy just b/c he replaced a dead person. It happens in normal life & it's pretty normal to be pissed off at first, but then it gets old & old. - Eric Delko, right now, has a bullet in his head & some times has memory lapses. Not to mention that he once saw a ghost. He should retake his proficiencies b/c we know that sometimes he uses a cheat sheet even if he'll never admit it since he's too proud. He made some mistakes while working b/c of his injuries & he takes lots of medications. How can you always blame a person just b/c he has a bullet in his head? When he makes a mistake you have to point it out & try to teach him how not to repeat it so that he can really improve, something he's not doing, right now. - Ryan Wolfe has all his mental capacities & right now he's more competent thatn Eric Delko. Whenever it's time for a complex mission, Horatio always goes to see Ryan first b/c he has gained his trust. How can you always blame him just b/c you feel that he's not at the same level of Delko? Having said this, it is useless to always blame Ryan b/c he replaced Speedle, it is uselss to always blame Delko just b/c he has not all his mental capacities & it is useless to blam Ryan just b/c, at the moment, is a little bit smarter than Delko. But people who don't pay enough attention to the show we'll always be so sneaky when it's time to blame someone they hate. So as you blame someone for a certain thing, you should blame someone else b/c of other things. It's just a question of maturity, IMHO. Ryan isn't always a man either b/c some times he didn't even understand what kind of mistake he had just done. Same thing happens to Delko. I think that the problem w/ Delko (trying to let you understand why I don't like him, at the moment) is that very few times he understands what kind of mistake he made & very few times offers to help the person who's trying to cover him. I know I'll be boring taking always the cheat sheet example, but I do think it can explain my opinion in the best way possible. In that occasion he didn't understand what the real intention of Calleigh's words was & once she said "I'll retake the proficiencies" & left the lab, he didn't go to visit Stetler & he didn't pay the consequences of HIS mistake. But, then again, the stupid one was Calleigh, not him! The same exact thing hapened w/ Ryan & his supernote. And again the stupid one was Caleligh & not Ryan. Though, I think this kind of situation happened more times w/ Eric than Ryan. That's why I tend to defend Ryan, when it's possible. Let's just say that yeah he doesnt' think he doesn't need to have his skills checked. He some times doesn't even know what day is & most of the times doesn't even understand people want to tell him. That's the real problem w/ Eric, at this point. And I do think it has also something to do w/ his beloved bullet Gotta agree also b/c I'll reapeat it till I die...IT IS IMPOSSIBLE that he came back to work w/o assistance both medical & psychological after his shooting! That's when I blame writers! Let's just say that it was all TPTB's fault. They focused too much on Calleigh & Delko spending a night together instead of insisting on the whole team completely ignoring Ryan's missing. And yep we tended to blame E/C, but I think we all did it just b/c that what TPTB focused on. It would have been much easier w/ Natalia eating a toast & Frank shaving his already bald head :lol: Gotta agree w/ you on this one We're so not going to agree on this oney, but it's not a problm...at all :lol: Exactly! That's another reason why I almost threw up during that scene :lol: Ok let's put in this way :lol:. He had that cheat sheet & normally no one, who's a CSI, should have it since it should be a very competent person. This thing lead into different directions: -some times Calleigh Duquesne can be really stupid & yeah she took that piece of paper. When she took it, Cooper saw her & saw that paper. That's exactly what gave him the brilliant idea to create that hilarious site. OFC, we all know what that site created. - Calleigh had to retake her proficiencies b/c of it. She had to do it b/c it looked like she tempered w/ evidence & as if she didn't know what her job was like. I mean she was "The CSI w/ the cheat sheet". Her credibility sank along w/ her reputation thanks to Cooper's website. -Calleigh took the GSR from a suspect & she couldn't used that evidence b/c oh yeah she just got suspended b/c of that sheet. This got the suspect completely free. This is what Calleigh mean when she said "putting people in danger". What if the suspect had killed another person while our CSIs were trying to find another way to arrest him just b/c their ballistic expert got suspended? It's not like this. B/c of his INCOMPETENCE he got a person kidnapped, a suspect freee & lots of other people in danger if Calleigh hadn't passed his exams. Cooper should have ended up in a jail, possibely w/ the guard throwing the keys away. Delko should have resigned b/c his incompetence put more than one person in danger, also b/c Cooper was yeah stupid, but disfuited his incompetence & Calleigh's stupidity :lol: Let's just say that I wanted to punch that Caleligh b/c I totally understood how Delko felt in that moment, but, again, TPTB know how to show some stupidity on this show :lol: Let's just say that we see this thing in a completely different way :lol: Then, again, writers know how to write some ridiculous stuff. Because there's no way Delko would have been able to lead any kind of investigation especially if you consider he has that silver bullet in his head & came back w/o any kind of rehab or tutor And that's how I would like to watch this show since they've been the onley episodes in which you could have some doubts on whether they were together or just working together. You're absolutely right, you couldn't say that they were together in those episodes, but they were the only examples since they have been together. There's always an E/C moment. As long as we keep the discussion like this, I think it's entirely possible since I'd love to see a civil discussions between the parts b/c "yes we can!" Let's just say that lots of poeple came to a point where they can't even stand a single scene together between these two also b/c in the last 3 years we have only had one episode when they have never shared a scene together. Can you believe it? :lol: I think you're right. It would be a really bad trauma for me, but I do wish all the best for Emily Procter so I want Caleligh to leave the show so that Emily could go on having the possibilety to get an award, something she'll never get as longs as she keeps playing Calleigh. I honestly highly doubt Calleigh could ever get back to the one I used to love, even w/ a very slow return Gosh this discussion is incredibely good! :thumbsup:
Agreed. As sad as it is for some fans to lose a favorite character, alot of times it actually helps the show evolve. Warrick's death on Vegas was tragic & I hated to see him gone, but it also completely drew me back in to see what would happen next - to the team, how they dealt with it, & ect. IMO, at some point of the series, character departure does become necessary & it's always huge for the show. Now about Eric: First of all, TPTB took the easy way out with him. They didn't take the time just to develop him naturally & let himself overcome his "ways" under normal circumstances. No, they put a bullet in his head & *BOOM*! they have a new Eric Delko, he's reborn, & they can do whatever they want to him, scrap the past, & change him to fit Calleigh -- this is exactly what they did. Everything since then has been brewing from his injury - he's overly dependant, his behavior is sometimes questionable, & he has yet to face any consequences from the aftermath of his shooting. Having said that, I don't think this is exactly where TPTB want Eric to be. I do get the impression that he'll hit a bottom low only to later be brought back again. Someone earlier mentioned that Eric has acknowledged his problems, & that is correct - however - Eric hasn't learned to face them, or accept them, & if he doesn't do this then he'll never be able to stand on his own. That's why I think there'll be more to his developing than what we've already seen. Surely tptb don't want him to live the rest of the series being needy & clingy. He needs to stand alone for a while, face his injury & the aftermath, & truly find himself. Sorry, but I do not think he can do this while clinging to Calleigh, & it may take something tragic to force him to do this. For the record - I don't paint Eric as "evil" & never would. Up until his character destruction, he was my absolute favorite, flaws & all! He is a sweet, sensitive man & he has a good heart, but there are times when he is in the wrong (& totally moody), & I've seen that more since his injury. TPTB may be trying to make him look "perfect" since the shooting, but in my honest opinion this is Eric very close to being at his lowest, even worse than the "toothing" in season 3, imo. But as I said before, I think alot of this brewed from his injury & I can't help but get the impression that these last 2 seasons were like the calm before the storm when it comes to Eric's PTS. Moving on to Calleigh: In comparison to Eric, I feel that her stories have all been told. Duke was incredible & I adored that arc, but I feel it served it's purpose & they moved on from it. As far as her job is concerned, well, there's no where to take her. Years ago, I thought Calleigh had enough "power" to take on a higher role, but I can't see that now. Not just because I think she's weaker, but also because I don't see it being what Calleigh wants anymore. TPTB have thrown so much tragedy her way, & while they threw just as much on Eric's plate, his was more personal, & Calleigh's seems to be revolving around her job. Between Hagen shooting himself in her lab, her car mishap in 'SYG', her kidnapping that was caused by...again...her job, her being unable to save William, coming close to death on the job in 'SGIYC', & now with the *cough finale cough*?!?! In a nutshell, I could see Calleigh turning in her badge & working as a door-greeter at Wal-Mart before I could see her finishing the rest of the series. I see alot of the same pattern they used for Sara Sidle. Calleigh's played every card, & it seemed that in mid-season 5 there was one thing left unfinished - her & Eric, assuming this is really where tptb wanted to go, which I personally don't believe, but that's for another thread Anyway, I keep asking myself where they go with her next, & my answers keep coming up blank. Bottom line is, this is a crime show & the focus is normally on the crime scene, the jobs performed by the CSI's, & how those CSI's handle said job - personal arcs on the side. So, where does it leave Calleigh when she's suffered so much due to this career & doesn't have the heart for it anyway - & what's the point in having the character if they aren't a reflection of what the show is about?? Now, I'm not saying she doesn't give a ratt's behind about the team or the victims, but I don't see her having that same "need to succeed" shown in the others, even in Eric who still throws hints that direction('Resurrection'; Eric to H: "just you & me"; referring to them as a team getting the bad guys). Ryan & Natalia have both shown signs that they're moving forward, very slowly I might add, but it's still being shown, as does it always show in Horatio. Calleigh? She's at a standstill, not moving forward, & with no way to go back. To sum this up, I just have to say that right now I'd love something refreshing to hit 'Miami'. The fact that we're all hear discussing the same things that have been discussed for the past 2 1/2 years is just proof that every season is just a tweaked version of the one before. I enjoy these conversations, I honestly do, but I really wish TPTB would give us something else to talk about.
I agree with you about Calleigh, Flo. I should have qualified my statement by saying I believe everyone but Calleigh...
I don't think TPTB changed Eric to fit with Calleigh, after the shooting, they've quite scenes together, in earlier seasons that I can perfectly see their chemistry, also, I don't think change Eric was a good choice, I still love him, I think he's more mature, IMO. I agree w/ you, but only in the first part I don't think Calleigh influences Eric to know he has problems, moreover, I think she can help him I kinda agree with you, I don't think she wants to have a higher role with all the things that happenned to her, although I always want that to her Also, I don't see where Cal is weaker, she's different from the old Calleigh, like many people call her, If you mean weaker 'cause she now shows more her emotions, I wouldn't call it weakness, I'd call it human.
I can't speak to what everyone else means when they indicate they feel that Calleigh is weaker now than before, csifann1. But I'm not referring to her showing more emotion or crying. You're right. That's being human and I've never thought that a woman, or a man, who cries is a weak person. Why I feel Calleigh is weaker now then she was 2 1/2 seasons ago, is because I've seen her repeatedly compromise her principles and her integrity to protect Eric. I won't list all the reasons again, I think it's getting to be overkill. But she has done things in the last 2 1/2 seasons that my moral, ethical Calleigh of the first 4 seasons would never have done. That Calleigh would have found a better way, a way that allowed her to retain her integrity. That's what I mean when I say Calleigh is weaker now than the first 4 seasons.
What I've never understood, and I hope you'll forgive me for sounding snippy or rude (which I'm sure I will, my apologies), is why Calleigh seems to be reviled for throwing protocol and principles to the wind while Horatio is not... or have Horatio's principles always included a willingness to execute criminals/enemies in cold blood?
Florry, Loved your post:thumbsup: Didn't agree with some of it (you know which parts) but loved it nonetheless. I'm pleasantly surprised that you agreed with me on the Ryan/Horatio deal with regards to Horatio being the first one he thinks about when the team needs to be betrayed and the pros and cons of that particular scenario. I've always thought that but just never posted it. I also have to say that seeing your explanation with regard to Ryan/Eric consequences I do get your point and have to painfully agree Eric has not faced a lot of consequences for the things that he's done and maybe that is about to change if the finale is any indication. I for one am in the single camp that thinks maybe, just maybe Sharova was telling the truth and Eric confided in H about what he was doing (like he did in Sink or Swim) and not Calleigh since the very mention of Sharova's name sent her into fits, imo. I'm referring to when H went to find his father and bring him to Eric. Maybe he didn't just cross the line and get himself into some serious trouble. If he did then I agree that it's time for him to pay some consequences. It will be interesting to see how they write this since Ryan never really paid any consequences for what he did in WISC. Not relating the actions but it will be interesting to see if Eric pays the consequences for what he did BECAUSE he didn't tell H whereas Ryan didn't pay any because he did. Delynn and Mjszud, I didn't think it was possible but you've convinced me that maybe it should be Calleigh rather than Eric. MJ, said it best in that with all the tragedies that Calleigh has been thrown because of the job I could finally see her throwing in the towel and saying...ok...enough is enough. Now as much as ya'll hate it I do think that would open up the storyline that would enable her to get married, start the family etc...:lol: If Grissom can run off with Sara then Calleigh can marry Eric dang it and stay at home. Speaking of which you are exactly right when you say a character leaving can be a very good thing for the show. I also started watching CSI again after Warrick was shot so I do get your point. I've only watched a few episodes but Warrick was my favorite character and I haven't gotten back into it. Other than those few episodes I'm really not into the new cast all that much even though I think Laurence Fisburne is great. However, you do make an excellent point. Loved what you said about Eric MJ. I never looked at it as Eric not really facing his problems or rather his limitations. As Florry said his character has been known to be arrogant so in this instance it could be he's falling back on his usual defense mechanism which won't allow him to ask for help. I do see a dependence on Calleigh as he's stated more than once he doesn't know what he would do without her but that dependency is working both ways as she seems to have a need to be the one to step in and clean up or be the savior. It's been shown enough times with both Ryan and Eric. It's almost as if she's making up for having gone missing in season 4 and dropped the ball when he really needed her friendship and she was, well oblivious, dang bad writing AGAIN. Actually the season finale finally convinced me that as much as I'm a shipper her head is not in the right place. Meaning she's so focused on protecting Eric that she's forgetting the bigger picture and that's not good for either one of them. Eric is so intent on protecting her (by not telling her everything and keeping her out of it) he's digging the hole deeper for himself and following in Ryan's old footsteps (i.e. getting fired). I think Ryan would have done a better job talking him back from the ledge because he's been there, than Calleigh did. I know, I know it will never happen but one could always hope As I posted on another thread she could have eliminated all the arguing with Eric by taking the dang picture of Sharova to H, having the man brought in and questioned before Eric had any chance or hope of doing anything stupid. He would have been angry either way but at least Sharova would have been taken out of the equation and eliminated the urge for Eric to 'save' his father. Instead she ends up providing the impetus and all trust flew out the window so now Eric is the bad guy AGAIN **sigh** I mean really can he and Ryan get new roles? You hit the nail on the head that with 2 1/2 years discussing the same thing has gotten old. Ryan needs to move away from the guy you're not sure you can trust. Eric needs to move away from the guy always getting in trouble, making mistakes, yelling at people etc and Natalia just needs to be in the show for more than two seconds. As for Calleigh, she just needs to stay at home and take care of the D&D babies :lol: I do agree with csi1fann that Calleigh could be that support for Eric to help him through it once he finally acknowledges that he's hit rock bottom as you say. Personally, I think Eric alone with too much time to think is what gets him in trouble. I also think that in a weird way Calleigh is not only the woman that he loves (ok for us E/C shippers) I also think that in some way she also took his sister Mari's place in being that confidane that he had. Ok, I know this sounds sick and twisted but I don't mean in a gross way but in the close relationship way that I felt were implied in the closeness they tried to portray between Eric and Marisol. Did that make sense? Ginna, Great to have you back. I wondered where you were so it's nice to see you posting again and although I'm not Delynn I would like to respond to your post. You're absolutely right that Super H appeard and a whole lot of rules went out the window with him. We have been focused on discussing E/C in this thread becuase of the question I asked about who folks thought the show could survive without since the E/C pairing has caused so much controversy - good and bad. Horatio is pivotal to the show and if he left I don't think there would be a Miami. Also, while he has done things imo that are every bit as questionable as Calleigh I don't see that it changed his character so much that you're wondering who that character is. Does that make sense?
Oh, I'm right there with you. If H left, CSI Miami would crumble into dust. It would no longer be. So... I guess that this isn't the most appropriate thread for discussing Horatio's unethical behavior since this is a thread which focuses on the ramifications of character departure, but I don't really feel comfortable posting this in the "Dislike Eric/Calleigh" thread where Delynn usually goes. I guess I could have PM'd her, but it's more of a question to anyone who focuses on the ethically questionable behavior of Calleigh while ignoring the ethically questionable behavior of other characters, particularly H. I know what you're trying to say, but I don't see the difference you seem to see. Calleigh has done things that she never would have done in the beginning of the series, at least as far as we could tell. Horatio has also done things that he never would have done in the beginning of the series, as far as we can tell. They've both changed from people who don't compromise their principles to people who DO compromise their principles. Calleigh is now the kind of person who reads confidential therapy files and keeps photographs of Russian mobsters from her boss. Horatio is now that kind of person who will fly across the world in order to assassinate a criminal who has sidestepped American justice, and will shoot a severely injured man in the head at point blank range. It seems that Calleigh's misdeeds follow her around like a dark cloud. Horatio, on the other hand, does not seem to have such a cloud. That's the only difference I see. By the way, I know I come off sounding very blunt and possibly somewhat snippy. I really do apologize. I try to state my thoughts in a straightforward manner but it usually comes off sounding like I'd have an unpleasant tone to my voice if I said any of it outloud. I'm really not trying to sound like a jerk, but I'm sorry if I do. I wish I knew how to be more..... delicate.
Thank your for response, luvscimiami. I agree completely with what you said and would only add that I don't believe that Horatio has been given a pass at all. His inappropriate behavior has been discussed here and elsewhere to the point of the character being completely bashed - with very few defending him. I don't give him a pass when he crosses the line and I've acknowledged multiple times I don't like the Super H part of his character and I abhored his behavior in both of his trips to Rio. I don't believe, however, that there is no where for his character to go, as I believe with Calleigh. I believe that we are already seeing a turn around with Horatio. I see an attempt at a return to a more caring and compassionate, and hopefully principled and ethical, Horatio. I would like to see more of that caring and compassion directed at bringing his team back together rather than directed mostly at the victims, but it's a start that will hopefully continue in season 8. I, too, believed this thread was meant to discuss whether E/C, one or both, were still viable characters important to the show and whether the show could survive the loss of one or both of those characters. And I think you'll find I've been trying to get out a bit on the boards - outside of the "Dislike Eric/Calleigh" thread. :lol: I'm sorry, but I can't believe that you honestly don't believe that Horatio's misdeeds haven't followed him around! It honestly has to be because you are a Calleigh fan and focused on what is said about her and not a Horatio/Caruso fan that you truly aren't aware of the beating he takes. Trust me, he is bashed on a regular basis and his cloud is much darker and much larger than Calleigh's! Okay. I'm going trust what you're saying here. Because to be honest, I do feel you like there is something about my opinions specifically that angers you. I can't figure out if it's because I dare to like and sometimes defend Horatio or if it's because I'm not an E/C supporter. So I'll just trust that I'm reading you wrong and move on.
I can see where you would want this, but I'm not fond of storylines that would never be shown on screen. To me they're pointless, especially with this type of show where the characters' personal lives aren't the focal point. Not to mention that tptb are terrible in the continuity department - they tend to just move things along. I for one would want to see characters evovle, not stay in the same place or same state of mind. Imo, it just tends to keep the show & the character at a standstill, & for me personally, it isn't as interesting. GSR's "happily ever after" worked for 2 reasons. 1) It was perfect timing - they "closed" the story together & they were able to do that because both characters were planning an exit. 2) The show already had the impact of Warrick's death happening at the same time the other two left, so there wasn't a need for additional tragedies, like BP or JF being killed off. Like I said, I can see where this would be your choice, but I tend to look at the entire show & how things can develop & move forward to keep things fresh & exciting. I also look at what can have an impact on the show as a whole, & also on the actor who is leaving. "Happily ever afters" go over well with shippers (minorities in the overall viewers), but it doesn't leave it's "mark" on the general audience or the show.
LOL...you are exactly right and as much as I want that I was being semi-facetious. I don't see Miami ever showing this on the show...unless EP really did end up leaving and they were bringing a new character in. If that were the case then maybe I could see it as a way for them to keep her character as part of the show and she could do occasional cameos etc. However, as part of the storyline now...not likely. If tptb did this color me major surprised and I would seriously wonder what they heck they were doing. I could see an ending like this maybe at the very end of the show and they wrap everything up nice and tight (unless they are trying to follow CSI:NY, which I don't watch because everyone apparently is hooked up in that show). That being said I could see a storyline where the two were married but still effective CSI's not working together but with others. I do think that could work on Miami but you've hit the nail on the head with tptb being really bad about continuity and honestly I would be alarmed that they would mess that up so who knows. So now I have new questions in light of the last finale...still along the same thread discussion. What do you foresee as the season opener for S8 with Eric? Do you think that just maybe he really wasn't lying and Calleigh jumped to some seriously incorrect conclusions or do you think that he was lying and that after all this time he is finally going to face the consequences of his actions? If so, do you think they could accomplish this in a way where neither Calleigh nor Eric exit the show but their character is not as visible as they once were for a while? Kind of like what they did with Ryan when he was gambling. I really felt like this storyline helped Ryan and he gained more sympathy because he had to face the consequences of his actions. Do you think the same thing would work for Eric and or Calleigh? Hence would it be a better Miami if they went this route. I have to say I'm on the fence with this one. On the one hand I could see some major story potential by finally having Delko face the consequences for on always leading with his heart instead of his head. Florry made a good point earlier when she stated that Eric hasn't had to deal with a lot of consequences of his actions since he's been shot and I think it's time for that to happen. The advantage to this is that they could put Eric on suspension, show him retaking his proficiencies, revaluating all his decisions and coming back a stronger, wiser, more mature character. I do think this might possibly give Calleigh a chance to refocus and grow as well...then maybe if they kept these to together their relationship would be viewed in a different light as they both realize they can't cross the line and keep the respect of the team and of each other. The other advantage to this is that it would push these two characters to the background a bit and allow us to see more character development with Natalia and Ryan. It might even provide the impetus to pull the team back together as a team so that they all realize that they have to keep each other in check and that they all need and depend on each other. (hope that made sense, having a hard time explaining what I mean but I think ya'll will get it) On the flip side I would love it if just once this was written to surprise everyone and shows that Eric actually did think of the consequences, maybe secretly talked to H and everything is not as it seems and he didn't cross the line. If they could come up with a plausible explanation I think this storyline would be very interesting as well and would definately introduce an interesting dyanmic with E/C where Calleigh has to really think about the assumptions she made, why she made them and having to deal with the effects from that. However, I'm not really holding out much hope on that since they really didn't explore that all that much with either Eric or Calleigh after Ryan's tortue ordeal. This also wouldn't push these two to the background and therefore would only probably interest us shippers no matter how well it was written. I think either one of these two scenarios are plausible and maybe instead of having one of the characters leaving in these events in the finale could bring these guys around to maturing and growing without sabotaging who they used to be or who they are now. Kind of starting over from scratch sort of concept. Shoot maybe Eric is hurt really badly and he remains in a coma for six months and we only see cameos of home in periodic episodes. That would definately push his character to the background and maybe make a whole lot of Ryan fans really happy :lol: Ok, so chime in guys let me know your thoughts
I wouldn't to criticsize Calleigh just b/c she's more emotional than she used to be also b/c after all she's been through, it is absolutely human to even cry. Let's just say that she some times didn't show as tough as she used to be. IDK how to explain it b/c it's just a feeling I have some times while watching this new Calleigh. I knew you wouldn't have agree w/ all of it, but hey it's absolutely normal & I'm glad you're still having your opinion about some stuff :lol: I truely hope you're right, but I highly doubt since H doesn't even know about Calleigh's proficiencies :lol:. Let's say that "Sink Or Swim" was a fortunate conincidence, IMHO. IDK I think that in this case Delko should pay consequence b/c he put in danger some people, if not the entire city. That is if Sharova is a really bad person, as I think he is. While Ryan didn't put anyone in danger. He put at risk the lab integrity, but hey it had been already cancelled by someone else before Let's say that at least it would be a positive twist, for her character I mean Do you want me to rant at you? :lol: Well after the finale of s7 I really can't see how she'll be able to trust Eric b/c of his actions so yeah I highly doubt they'll get married. Not to mention that in that case it would be the last episode of CSI:Miami, I'll watch it. Don't get me wrong, but I just can't see how she can get married to the 50th man who already showed he can't protect her in her future . Just not my cup of tea. I think it was completely different. Also b/c a CSI:Miami wedding between Calleigh & Eric would remind me of Danny & Lindsay in CSI:NY. It would be just copycat, IMHO. Not to mention that there's no realistic condition which makes me think it is time for them to get married, unless Calleigh is gonna expect a baby, but, then again, it would lead us into 2 directions: - wedding=copycat of CSI:NY - Calleigh leaving the show & yeah that's what we're kinda waiting for :lol: Again, this last season finale showed how much Calleigh is too focused on Eric instead on concentrating on her own life & the people who work w/ her. I mean look at the shooting: when she realized she may have shot at Eric she just stopped doing anything & hey the shooting hadn't finished yet, if you consider they thy hadn't killed all the bad guys yet. I kinda enjoyed her smile when Ryan tried to cheer her up, but, then again, I was expecting a little bit more considering Calleigh Duquesne & not Calleigh Delko That's another stupid action Calleigh committed in this season, but this is the new Calleigh. Don't get me wrong, but as much as you want to protect someone & as much you love someone IT IS STUPID the fact she didn't show the pic to Horatio. Everyon know he can solve any kind of problem! Too bad that his team doesn't trust Super H :shifty: Oh gosh I really wish they listened to us so that we could really have some refreshing new storylines for our team. Actually I'd prefer to see her taking care of a puppy dog :lol: Absolutely my dear :thumbsup: totally agree w/ you on this. That's exactly why I don't question his action not to mention that some times he really rocks :lol: I think this thread is actually perfectly fine to post this question in. I mean we're focusing on E/C, but actually this thread is all about a possible departure of any of the character, though it is quite obvious why we're still focusing on them. I mean (please don't feel offended, Eva & Jonathan's fans), Eric & Calleigh have been in the show for more years than Ryan & Natalia & I'm pretty sure most of the people who have been watching the show since its very first episoe would be able to kinda cope w/ the possible departure of Ryan or Natalia. Did it make sense? I guess we're focusing on her since we used to see a completely different character of Calleigh in the first seasons. OFC, Horatio did lot of questionable things (and yes I'm the first one who has to complaing about these actiong) but it didn't changed his original essence. I mean Horatio has always had a strange concept of justice while Calleigh didn't use to have the same concept of moral integrity she has right now. Hope it made sense. . Not to mention that there always have been lots of posts focusing on how his concept of justice isn't always the best & yep he has been bashed a lot for it. No one ( I have to say this since I'm the first one resposnsible for this) hase never been able to complain about Calleigh also b/c she's always been the fav. character of lots of people who watch this show. There's no way to deny that she used to be my absolutly fav. character ever of televison & whenever someone tried to question about some actions she has been doing, I always found a way to defend her & I always felt they didn't have any right to complain on her behaviour just b/c she was my fav. character. That's not how I should have behaved & I apologize to all the people who immediatly saw what I've been seeing lately People change & also opinions change. Calelgih Duquesne has always been considered the best person of the show & she's always been considered the most professional one. Well she changed & yep some of her actions MUST be questioned. So, as Horatio's actions have been questioned for all of these 7 years, I do think it's time to question her actions b/c let's face it....she's not perfect! I'm not saying that we should repeat the same mistake we used to commit...which is bashing Calleigh as we used to bash Horatio. Yep sometimes I didn't like him & his actions at all, I must admit it Let's just put it in this way. While Horatio does what he does for personal reasons & for personal concept of justice while Calleigh doest what she does b/c she loves Delko. I guess you'll never see this difference, just b/c I can see we have a different idea on this, but still I tried to explain myself Yuppy!!!! :lol: I think that he lied to her just to protect her & that she'll pissed at him for a while. They won't be talking for a while, but after a couple of episode it will be as if anything happened between the two. I mean knowing TPTB's little problem w/ continuity, I highly doubt Eric is gonna pay any consquence of his actions, also b/c I just can't really picture TPTB making him a dark character All I can think about in terms of saving both of the characters is Calleigh is going to leave the lab for a while just to reflect on evertything that has been happening to her & Delko lately & she'll evnetually be back at the lab. Or she may change her job just b/c she understood that her CSI carreer destroyed her That would make my day, really! :thumbsup: And yes the whole post made sense to me & I agree w/ you.
I didn't mean to imply that my observation applies universally. I was talking about the perspectives of the people I've met here. They are the only people with whom I have ever discussed Miami at length, and my scope does not extend beyond them. If there has been as much or more Horatio bashing here than there has been Calleigh bashing, then I have missed it. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places... but from what I HAVE seen, there are many people who are quite happy to pick apart in minute detail every "bad thing" Calleigh has done without so much as an acknowledgment that there are other characters who have done worse. This perspective may, as you say, be seriously skewed. I like Horatio too!!! Ask my friends. Sometimes I practically force them to watch clips of his one-liners. :lol: One of my favorites is "it's as cold... *dramatic pause* ...as ice". I know he's done horrible things, but I still like the character. I know that Calleigh has done horrible things (though I don't think they are quite as horrible as assassination), but I still like her character too. So no, I don't have a personal grudge against you because you favor a certain character. I was trying to make a point, one that seems to've turned out to be wildly ludicrous. Also, the fact that you're not an E/C supporter isn't particularly angering. Even if it was, there are several others who are equally vocal and vehement about their dislike for E/C. There'd be no reason to single you out. It seems I am incapable of expressing myself to you without also appearing hostile. My sincerest apologies for that, and I also offer my word that I will not try to discuss Miami with you again as it's obviously a bad idea. Thank you for your explanation, but I'm afraid that I don't see much of a distinction. Horatio murdered several people in Rio because he loved Marisol. That was his personal reason. Calleigh read a file and withheld photographic evidence because she loves Delko. So... you're probably right, I guess I'll never see the difference.