Why Lindsay REALLY Must Go (Pt. 2)

[Ceindreadh]

Clythia does have a bit of a point, IMO.

Yes I know it's the nature of the thread, and perhaps it's that CG has less iffy episodes than AB, but why is he being excused on the grounds that 'oh it must because he doesn't like the arc and is making a point' rather than maybe he was just crap in an iffy episode.
Maybe AB didn't like the storyline either and it came across in her eps. So why would CG get a free pass and she wouldn't?

Oh, and interviews with the cast, they're probably told in advance what they can and can't mention. I can't see any actor giving an interview in which they basically say that TPTB suck for doing a particular storyline.

 

[Faylinn]

why is he being excused on the grounds that 'oh it must because he doesn't like the arc and is making a point' rather than maybe he was just crap in an iffy episode.

My thing is--we don't know whether the tired/exhausted/doesn't-seem-to-totally-give-a-crap situation is the actor or the character. It could be building up to something, or it could be the actor doing it for whatever reason. Maybe Carmine is interpreting how Danny would be feeling after things that have been going on, maybe he was directed to act that way, maybe he's just spending too much time playing games online--who knows?

In the end, though, even when I wonder about the tired thing, I don't think it makes his acting shit or anything. Yes, he's tired, but he still portrays emotion and pulls a variety of facial expressions. And quite frankly, I'm going to be more forgiving of an actor/character that has proven his worth time and again, rather than one that has just never done it for me.

Generally, I think people in here want to think this thing with Carmine/Danny will come to something because we're optimistic about him whereas with Anna/Lindsay, there just hasn't been anything to prove that two years of lukewarm performance and characterization (and yes, before anybody claims that I'm totally blaming Anna, which I'm not--that's also on the writers, just so we're clear) will suddenly be explained away as intentional.

So no, it's not totally equal, I won't pretend it is--but I think Carmine earned the faith we have in him to do the character justice.

Maybe AB didn't like the storyline either and it came across in her eps.

Every one of them?

I can't see any actor giving an interview in which they basically say that TPTB suck for doing a particular storyline.

No, I'd say definitely not. I imagine they could express their opinions on something to a certain extent, but this is their job and by and large they'll probably keep that kind of thing to themselves.

 

[penguinpie]

Ceindreadh said:
Yes I know it's the nature of the thread, and perhaps it's that CG has less iffy episodes than AB, but why is he being excused on the grounds that 'oh it must because he doesn't like the arc and is making a point' rather than maybe he was just crap in an iffy episode.

I don't know that anyone is offering Carmine a free pass exactly. It is just rather odd that Danny seems to be acting so differently toward Lindsay this season, especially after following her around like a puppy last year. We're all just speculating as to why.

I suppose the question is: is this due to the writers not being interested in stressing the relationship, leaving it to the audience to assume they are still going out, or is it deliberate and possibly hinting that everything is not swell? At this point, who can really tell? Certainly, it wouldn't be professional for them to be snuggling up at work and so far their scenes have been, well, business-like. Maybe that's all there is to it.

I doubt Carmine would be so unprofessional as to deliberately underplay those scenes, even assuming the writers and director would let him get away with it. It's a relief however it came about. Once they started pushing the romance between them, their scenes together really went to hell. Forced and unconvincing is the kindest way to put it. And yes, perhaps neither actor was particularly thrilled with the direction. Maybe there was a joint revolt that we haven't heard about? It would be nice to think so. It serves neither character well and Lindsay's character needs to be able to stand alone if she's to ever win over her detractors.

 

[Clytia]

I’m sorry if some points in my post have been misunderstanding. Maybe “upset” was a little too hard, but I don’t have so much vocabulary (*sorry*)

Clytia, if you dislike negative sentiments so much, why did you enter and read the thread at all? Certainly, it's your right to do so, but why get upset about it? It's pretty clear from the title that this thread is not supportive of Lindsay (and, sadly, by extension, Anna Belknap). I suggest next time you just click the Back button on your browser. It's amazing how well that works.

Lol I know how well that ‘Back button’ works Fact is: I don’t want don’t read that thread! I find this thread really interesting, they are really good points, some points I agree, some I disagree…And this is WHAT I find really interesting! And this is WHY I read this thread! I have nothing against negative sentiments especially when there are good arguments! And I know what I will find in this thread, like you said the title is not subtle I just find that is a little shame that is just ONE kind of sentiment in this thread! But I respect other opinion! I find interesting when you can politely discuss points, that you are agree or disagree! I find this good that you can read that kind of thread even if you’re supportive of the character! But, then again, I do understand the ‘negative’ thread versus ‘positive’ thread to keep peace in the forum…This must be really hard sometimes for the mods, but they’re doing a great job on this site, this is also why I read this thread!

I should have anticipated my example was not the best…*sorry*
I really have nothing against Eddie/Flack, quit the opposite, I love him! (…well…maybe…sometimes when he is holding a gun…but that just me …)
He’s doing really great things with is character…I agree! And Yeah, is a cop!!!...For me, CSI:NY will be not CSI:NY without Eddie/Flack (or any other member of the cast) THIS was Just an example! Obviously, not the best…But the first in my mind!

In fact, my point was like Ceindreadh said “Why Carmine is being excused when AB is not? That’s what “upset” or “bother” (?) me…

 

[penguinpie]

Clytia said:
I just find that is a little shame that is just ONE kind of sentiment in this thread! But I respect other opinion!

Glad to hear that! Though I don't really understand what other kind of sentiment you think should be expressed in a thread called "Why Lindsay must go"? It's not like we don't have other opinions, it's just that those tend to go in other threads. If you want to say what you like about Lindsay, please do. Some evidence of this sweetness, for example. I don't understand why her fans say this about her.

In fact, my point was like Ceindreadh said "Why Carmine is being excused when AB is not?" That's what upset or bother (?) me.

As Faylinn said, if we are going easy on Carmine, it's because a) he has "good credit" and we'll really have to see some bad performances before we call him on it, and b) we don't really know how to interpret his performance yet. Is his seemingly indifferent behaviour a deliberate choice by Carmine for whatever reason? Or does it just seem like indifference when compared to his (over)attentiveness last season? We may well be seeing something that isn't there. Only time will tell.

AB doesn't get a pass, because generally she has not put in the kind of quality work that Carmine has. She just doesn't seem as invested in Lindsay as she should be and it shows in her performance. Her big emotional scenes last season were devoid of power. During the "traumatic" testimony in Montana, she could just rustle up a bit of a quiver in the voice, but not even the hint of a tear. Not a glisten, nothing. Melina would have had me in tears if she'd had a scene like that. She certainly did in "All Access". Anna's been given the material, but she hasn't capitalised on it.

 

[chaostheory08]

This is the problem with putting two main characters together, they are going to try to please everyone, but it just doesn't work.

Not to mention putting one of the strongest and the weakest characters together.

chaos, darling, you know how that would go--the writers would include something overly contrived where Flack has big smile on his face while he was like 'Yay, I'm so happy for you guys, you guys love each other, yay, my best friend is happy with the love of his life and this makes me happy and yay!'

*snickers* Well, that would definitely convince me of the relationship's validity.

Hahaha, yeah -- if the best friend approves. :lol:

But I was gunning for something like Lindsey asking Flack for advise on how to get to Danny. I mean it's clear that she doesn't know squat abou the man she's supposed to have a relationship with. And Flack would be all, "Okay... this and that" but his eyes are like canons aimed at her. :lol:

Or he could just brush her off as he always does. So the writers can get Lindsey as the victim and Flack the villain.

Plus, Carmine's last interview with Kristine indicates he has few problems with Danny's story lines or his character being used to prop up another character. If he really does have problems with it, he's professional enough to not bring them up in an interview. I'd venture a guess that he's also professional enough to keep it seperate from his performance.

It's effort enough to establish your OWN character. Not to mention make most of what material that comes to you -- either good or crappy. And as the producers explained, the characters are somewhat an extension of the actors themselves. I think for Carmine, it's frustrating to be limited by constantly propping another character up. Danny's storylines are always engaging and they always work partly because Carmine pulls them off sooooo darn well. Being a support (and a foundation) of another character - may it be Lindsey or some other character - can hinder him from exploring all the things he can do with the material. Try removing Flack from just one episode, you'll feel immediately that something is not right.

Clytia -- like you said, to each his own.

Eddie, too, is very good in the role of Flack and always manages to hold his own alongside some pretty heavy hitting talent. Gary Sinise is no slouch, but their scenes together last year were excellently played. For the record, I think Eddie plays the tough cop very well and I can't understand why you would pick the way he holds a gun as indicative of, well, anything.

I'm not putting anyone on the pedestal (except maybe for Gary Sinise haha) but I agree. Eddie has made Flack soooo memorable and his lines classic even with the limited screentime our homicide detective is given.

Maybe Carmine is interpreting how Danny would be feeling after things that have been going on, maybe he was directed to act that way, maybe he's just spending too much time playing games online--who knows?

Or maybe to him, that is what he thinks Danny feels. One of those "If I were in his shoes" moments....

Carmine doesn't get a free pass. But the thing is, he has a better rep than Anna.

 

[Clytia]

Once again…long post…

Yeah, I agree Carmine has really "good credit", my problem with all of this…It’s maybe because I give also Anna “good credit” a lot of good credits…hu…How can I say this, I hope it will be understanding?

I saw Anna in other show, and she was Brilliant! (Without A Trace…)
About CSI:NY I never found her acting was ‘bad’. Maybe not always great! But nothing really wrong!
About Lindsay, you’re right: “sweet” maybe not the first word in my mouth when I want to describe this character. But she can be! With Danny in “The deep” when she tries to make him talk…This was maybe not the good choice of word…But it was ‘sweet’ not rude…In RSRD, still maybe not the good choice of word…This was a little awkward, Yeah, and so I find this kind of ‘sweet’! She has problem showing her concern, her emotion…but for me, it’s a part of her character, her personality! No ‘bad acting’! She also had sweet moments, sweet banters with other character Mac, Flack (love the “Lindsay: So, Flack, how many numbers did you get?
Flack: I don't like where you're going with this, Monroe.
Lindsay: How many? » in People with money)…
Sweetness maybe something which fit better Stella, or Hawkes…

During the "traumatic" testimony in Montana, she could just rustle up a bit of a quiver in the voice, but not even the hint of a tear. Not a glisten, nothing. Melina would have had me in tears if she'd had a scene like that. She certainly did in "All Access". Anna's been given the material, but she hasn't capitalised on it.

No! Anna/Lindsay didn’t have me in tears in this scene! But I find this scene really, really GREAT, intense! No! I didn’t cry, but I wouldn’t have wanted to…She maybe did not have a hint of a tear (well, when she asks to stop…she had) Sometimes when there is too much emotion that surrounding you…Then you ‘stop’ feeling, showing emotion…You freeze! This might be something contrary but I find this realistic, and that’s fit the character!
In this testimony scene, it was all in the eyes, in the looks, in her face…And I could feel the same relief than Lindsay (/Danny, the others) at the end of the trial…

I don’t wanna think about what would have done Danny/Carmine, Stella/Melina or anyone in one of Lindsay/Anna scene. Yeah, it probably will be different! Of course, it would be different!!!! And that’s what I love! What I love about her character, she is not Danny, she is not Stella, not Adam, not…!!!What I love about a character it’s that he is different of the other characters in the show, that she deals with things in other way, someone who have something particular!!! Even if it’s something that ‘bother’ me, even if it’s a trait of the character I don’t like…But it made me react…Catch my attention, make me watch… And I love this! But, I agree, in s3 there were some discontinuities with her character, but it could fit the fact that the character was having trouble to deal with her emotions due to the trial, and her ‘horrifying past’ not just the writers…

What I find different, interesting, in Lindsay…not her sweetness, not her rudeness, but something between…In fact, I find Lindsay determined!!! It could be a good thing, a wrong thing, some times annoying, yeah…But it’s how I find her character!
She wants to know, to learn, to understand! She is frustrated when she doesn’t know why, when she doesn’t find a reason! She wants to be right! She enjoy being right, but she also knows when she is wrong, and she accepts to learn from the others and enjoy this!
The ‘yes scene’! It was kind of surprising, but it fits the character who was frustrated to not find but really wanted to…and when finally she finds…well…boom…It give what we saw…Actually, I didn’t find this bad…Sometimes this can seem selfish, annoying, …,well, but for me, it fits her determined personality…This is really for me what define her the best!
Even with Danny, she might have problems to deal with emotion, relationship (all the s3…) But here again, she is determined, she know what she wants…She doesn’t want to let Danny play with her…She is the ONE who tease…Doesn’t mean her feeling are not there, and real…But it’s how she is! The best one, IMO, was the pool game in SD, you might thing it sucks, had nothing to do with the show, but it was all about the character of Lindsay and in continuity with her ‘determination’, IMO! And the acting was really great! (“a Benjamin says I do!” love this…)
But it’s not all the times about ‘her determination’; she still can do her job, be kind, laugh…
She still can’t deal with mother, she still repress her emotions…I would love a moment in the storyline…where she really breaks down…In Silent night, I didn’t find her sucks, she convinces me, but she was still trying to stay focus on her job, there was people around her and she didn’t want to break down in front of them…But she did, without really behind all open…Maybe a scene where she would be alone, all by herself, she could really break down, let her go…maybe it’s a little sadistic…But it could be a good point for the character…If it fits the storyline of course...Well, I’m sure there still things to do for Lindsay in the show…Even if it’s good things or wrong things, that make me want to discuss about her character, her development, that’s give me interest about her character, make me wants to watch…

Well, I hope all of this explain why and what I love/don’t love in Lindsay…And I still enjoy reading this thread!
And sorry, It was along post!

 

[Faylinn]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on all of that--it would be nice to watch Lindsay on the show and look at her the way you do, but it just doesn't come across that way to me. *shrug* Call me stubborn, maybe, but it all just doesn't mesh that well when I'm watching the show.

 

[Top41]

Lots of good discussion in here--I like that, too. Gives us more to chew on!

A couple of things: actors do occasionally complain about storylines in interviews. Adam Rodriguez on CSI: Miami wasn't thrilled with how quickly his character recovered from a gunshot wound to the head and said so. He wasn't insulting the writers, just disagreeing with the way they handled the storyline. There are respectful ways to do that. Jorja Fox also expressed displeasure with the way Sofia and Sara butted heads in s. 5. So the idea that actors never protest their storylines is not true at all.

However, like PA said, Carmine did not. He did say he wanted Danny "to come out of the box like an animal" in season four, though, and so far that hasn't happened. However, yeah, it's all supposition to presume him seeming tired and detached has anything to do with the stories on screen. Danny did go through a major trauma last season, and PTSD is something that has been bandied about as an explanation for his behavior. Nowhere did I see it implied that he had problems working with Anna; everyone says this cast gets along very well, and I think it would be presumptous and erroneous to suggest he has problems with her. There's a huge difference between having problems with a storyline that isn't servicing his character well and having problems with a co-star. The former might be a possibility; I doubt the latter is.

Clytia, I too find Lindsay determined, which is sometimes a good thing, sometimes not. She pushes her own theories ahead of the evidence sometimes, which is problematic and makes her seem arrogant. However, it's served her well at times, too, like when she solved the case in "Cool Hunter."

I've heard a lot about Anna being "great" in Without a Trace. I haven't seen those episodes, so I can't judge her performance in them. I saw her in Medical Investigation, and she was better in that (though still not great in my estimation). But her acting in NY is weak. She's awkward and doesn't appear to inhabit the character--her lines come off as just that, lines she's reading off the script. And her emotional scenes, like that laughable "crying" scene in "Silent Night" or the way she petulantly yelled at Stella, "Leave me alone!" in the same episode, lack conviction and resonance. I don't believe she's Lindsay Monroe, because I don't think she does.

I liked the pool scene in "Snow Day," and if that character was the one on screen every week, I might like Lindsay. But her character changes with each episode, because the writers and Anna have yet to establish a real personality for her. And the fault lies with both: there are actors on this show who started out with a lot less to work with than Anna who have done a lot more with their characters in a handful of scenes than she has in over two seasons. Yes, I'm thinking of A.J. Buckley and Robert Joy.

The truth is, Anna was given a lot of advantages, both in screentime and backstory, to develop this character, and she squandered them. Danny was used to prop her up because she needed to be propped up. That alone says a lot to me, because there isn't another character in the show--or the CSI franchise as a whole--that needed propping up in the way Lindsay did and still does. If that doesn't speak to her weakness as an actress, I don't know what does.

 

[Lessien_Tinuviel]

I've heard a lot about Anna being "great" in Without a Trace.

I haven't watched that episode in a long, long while, so my memory of it is a little fuzzy. But from what I do recall, her performance in those 2 episodes was better, and more memorable than most of her scenes on NY. That's why I even remembered her name to begin with, and when Anna joined NY my first thought was, "At least she is a decent actress." But 3 seasons on, her performance and potrayal of Lindsay seems to be developing backwards, she used to be better when the character first joined the show than she is now.

I don't believe she's Lindsay Monroe, because I don't think she does.

That is true, I agree. It's not like I'm putting Danny and Flack (and the actors that play them) up on a pedestal, but when you watch them on the show, they are no longer Carmine and Eddie, they have become Danny and Flack. Somehow I never see that in Anna. Like someone said in one of the posts somewhere above (don't recall who), when I watch her on screen, I see Anna acting as Lindsay. There always seem to be a bit of the oomph lacking in her portrayal, and we never get to see enough emotion in her eyes.

I was watching "Boo" again last night, I hate to repeat myself, but her expressions were essentially the same throughout the episode. She looked the same, when she was watching the family video, when the old lady spooked her, when she was talking to the little girl... I'm no actor, but I imagine that she was supposed to have different expressions in each of those scenes, but Anna somehow never manages to emote properly.

I am not hating on Anna, I'm just a little frustrated with how she is portraying Lindsay.

*end rant*

 

[Top41]

^Her inability to convey emotion through her expressions is a huge weakness. Maybe it wasn't as big a deal when she did theater, but in television where the camera is right there, capturing everything, it really is evident. Maybe theater was more her cup of tea, or guest roles that were limited in that they only briefly required her to slip into a character.

 

[WhosLaughingNow]

Top41 said:
^Her inability to convey emotion through her expressions is a huge weakness. Maybe it wasn't as big a deal when she did theater, but in television where the camera is right there, capturing everything, it really is evident. Maybe theater was more her cup of tea, or guest roles that were limited in that they only briefly required her to slip into a character.

I think she would have been better in theatre. Alot of it is I guess you could say is more exaggerated so everyone in the threatre no matter what the size it is gets it because sometimes you can't really see the actors faces... although her crying, that should be no where near the stage either.

 

[chaostheory08]

I did see her in Law&Order:SVU as a rape victim. That required a lot of emotion. She did well, I mean in expressing the feeling through her voice but her eyes remained blank.

Take note, I watched this episode waaaaaaayyyyy before CSI:NY. Not long after, I saw the episode with Eddie. It was quite good.

 

[Carrieattheprom]

She was actually kinda fun in last night's episode. As I said in the episode thread, the sling shot scene was a lot of fun and I liked her line about shooting at boys. I also liked Danny calling her Dennis the Menace. If she could just be like this most of the time I wouldn't have a problem with her.

 

[althea]

The slingshot moment is reminiscent of the scene between her and Mac when he let her shoot a crossbow I think in the second season I liked her fine then as well.