Why Lindsay Must Stay!

[kinkapoodles]

she tried to prove a point. you dont know Mac as well as you think. it showed she had observation skills - she is a CSI after all.

Yet in doing so, she turned what was a cute thing (Danny's little joke that Mac did think was funny) into a game of "I know the boss better than you because I'm from Montana and I'm perfect". Why exactly was she hell bent on proving that to Danny? It showed me a stalkerish side to her. She had to do more than just observe. She had to dig to find out that information. I don't play a guitar but I know how to hold one so that explanation seemed far fetched.

I think a lot of poeple saw it as classic case of "pulling pigtails" - very kindergarden and very Danny. chemistry is also a matter of taste to a point.

Well, this isn't grade school but that wasn't my point. What Hammerback said made no sense because lots of people use nicknames and it doesn't mean they're crushing on whoever they use them on (if so, I'm apparently in love with quite a few people ). It looked to me like Lindsay had the crush on Danny all through Season 2, not the other way around so to hear Hammerback say that, it just sounded crazy to me. My reaction was "he doesn't like her, she likes him".

but he invited her first (CoD anyone)

Again, they were working a case (in Stuck on You she invited him out after work), it was lunch time and so Danny asked if she wanted to grab a bite. I don't see that any different than him asking Flack or Stella to grab a bite. He wasn't exactly asking her out on a date because when he finally did that, she stood him up.

as for her (not) being funny - its a matter of taste.

agreed

ETA: Because I'm slow and Kimmy posted while I was typing.

Saying that Lindsay should leave the show just because she's banging Danny is as silly as saying that Lindsay should stay just because she's banging Danny, in my opinion.

Exactly. Danny shouldn't be the sole factor in whether or not you like Lindsay.

And also, the opinions stating disagreements are just that, opinions. They aren't personal attacks, just opinions that differ from those supporting Lindsay staying on the show.

I agree. I have nothing against anybody who likes Lindsay but I don't like her and I'm gonna state my reasons. :lol:

 

[carolina]

So in other words, in order for Lindsay to be considered a well-developed, viable character, ten whole episodes should be ignored?

thats not what I meant to say, though it seems like its exactly what I said. what I meant was, that she developed, steadily and quite consistently and that the writters didnt handle Annas maternity leave very well.

here I must admit that I havent seen the epis I mentioned - except for 4,5,11 & 14. I also wasnt talking about her being likable. but about the character development. which I think there was and they just took a detour and now are on the right track again

What Hammerback said made no sense because lots of people use nicknames and it doesn't mean they're crushing on whoever they use them on

Danny started to call her that to annoy her - hence my kindergarden comment, and then it became a term of endearment - hence Sids comment.

Would you still like Lindsay if the Danny/Lindsay relationship ends, and there's no plan of them ever reentering a relationship again?

Would you still like Lindsay if Danny is paired up with another woman on the show?

I would still like Lindsay but Im not sure I would still like the writters I would just close my eyes at the scenes

 

[poison girl]

what I meant was, that she developed, steadily and quite consistently and that the writters didnt handle Annas maternity leave very well.

I disagree. The first epiosodes tried to show an independent woman with resources, trying to impress everybody with her knowledge and suddenly she changed to a crying character that has a lot of things to hide, that tries to step over everybody and since then, everytime you say "Lindsay is like this" she made a turn around and changed completely.

The character development, as you try to say, doesn't exist at all. She hadn't been able to stop herself going from a side to the other without any kind of control, and that didn't happened because Anna was pregnant, because she hadn't been able to make a believable character since the first moment she appeared in the series.

Would you still like Lindsay if the Danny/Lindsay relationship ends, and there's no plan of them ever reentering a relationship again?
Would you still like Lindsay if Danny is paired up with another woman on the show?

I would still like Lindsay but Im not sure I would still like the writters I would just close my eyes at the scenes

The writers here, believe it or not, tried everything to develop her. Most of the changes in her came because she couldn't give the public what it was written, so they tried to change and see if some personality was suitable for her. Unluckily, she can't really perform as it should be. All had a time to develop; in the first season you have all the main characters, and as the seasons went on you can see other characters that you can really say 'they're like this', but with Lindsay it's impossible because she really can't keep it. And that is not the writers fault, she should be able to make a character line, know what would she do under some circunstances, under some lines, but she's unable to perform.

You say that if she's ripped off from Danny you would still like her, but, right now, the only thing interesting about her for the global public is that she's in a 'supposed' relationship wit another character. Her appearances are minimal, and always to give some sort of stupid information. She's been degraded to the one you can see and not hear while they collect the evidence from the scenarios, and all the important argumental lines go to other characters, and that have a reason; producers, writers and all the people involved in the creation know about the limits about her, and it's imposible to give her some sort of important argument if she hadn't been able to improve herself. That would be like throw off all the work and time spend in making it.

 

[Surreal_44]

Considering I haven't posted up my character analysis of Lindsay yet, it certainly has generated enough feed-back of being biased and without canon-based reasoning.

Yes, I sort of like Lindsay. Yes, I saw what was on the forum and went and looked at Lindsay and disagreed with what people have been writing about her. Why? Because (and this is going to sound harsh) it seems that those who dislike Lindsay have confused opinion with canon.

Suddenly Flack doesn't like Lindsay for 'what she put Danny through', and Mac doesn't like Lindsay or her explanations. Danny is ruined because of Lindsay. Danny is better off without Lindsay. See? Lindsay can't be her own character because everything is about Danny. Danny is her prop. Lindsay is annoying. Lindsay should die. Anna can't act. The writers can write brilliantly but they can't write this character.

That's not canon. Those are statements of opinion robed in a fancy title to make it seem like they are more valid and right and important. Anytime someone posts that they like Lindsay, or give a reason why, the pack of Lindsay's haters attack, shredding the post apart and holding up the shreds of people's opinions and going, "Look! See? Stupid idea, no canon to back it up!" Then we get a list of subjective reasons "Lindsay's explanations are irritating, not fun." Zuh? Where did that become canon?

So yeah. I'm going through episode by episode. I'm looking at Lindsay's character, making notes on what she says, what she does, how she responds. I'm writing notes on how other characters respond to her. If they are annoyed by her, how do we know?

Sure, it may sound high-handed of me to say that I am trying to be subjective. I did admit I may fail. But at least give me a chance to post. I'm going through every episode and taking notes. I'm doing it in my free time, so it's going to take some time.

And I said my character analysis will attempt to be objective. My opinion on whether Lindsay should stay or not will not be. Even indifferent as I was to her in the beginning (and I haven't warmed up entirely to her, btw, despite the desperate attempts to mark me as "Lindsay Lover"), I thought she should stay on the show. I will happily "prove" my opinion.

 

[PerfectAnomaly]

No one has said that their opinions are canon or fact. They've taken canon and used it as an example and support for their opinion.

Also, people do not "attack" those who like Lindsay. Responding to people and offering a different opinion or asking for clarification and/or examples is part of debate. I don't think it's too much to ask of someone to back up their opinion with canon examples. It doesn't mean that is "true canon," or that one side is going to or trying to convince the other side to change their opinions. It simply means the person is interpreting canon and using it to bolster their opinion. Just because some people are able to state their opinion without having to apologize and walk on egg shells doesn't mean they think their opinion is fact or the only "right" answer.

If a person can't accept that and they take disagreeing as a personal attack, they shouldn't be in a discussion thread.

 

[Dawni]

I would happily like her if she and Danny weren't involved it wouldn't change anything for me i don't think because i never really thought of it that way. I've always liked her cos she wasnt as full force as Stella or Aiden but instead she was a lil different.

Some of her explanations i like because they help you work out how they reached a point, the flower one was painful i agree it wasnt necessary but the one about the guy in the last ep, it made sense. I've never felt it was oneupmanship (think its a made up word) tho but more how she approaches her work and someone saying thats great is nice to hear every now and again.

If this season they could maybe show us more of her then would be nice, she is more relaxed and better this season than teh previous 2 and its what i like seeing.

 

[adorelo]

I've noticed one thing Anna can do with Lindsay. And that's make her look nervous. I don't know if it's intentional (and I can't provide examples as I don't have a damn clue about episode titles (yeah, I suck)) but she manages to convay Lindsay's nervousness and discomfort very well.

That said, I think there are also many areas in which she is lacking. I wont go into them in too much detail as this is the 'why she should stay thread', but I will mention that, if Anna could get a grasp on her characters personality, we'd be okay.

I do actually think Anna can act. I'm just not sure about her on NY. I recently watched the L&O episode in which she fetured, and I liked her style. She managed to really convey her feeling and made me feel for her.

But that was a one time role. Not a title role like she has now. Maybe she wasn't ready for that leap yet. I don't think she can handle Lindsay, personally.

 

[Top41]

Surreal_44 said:
Considering I haven't posted up my character analysis of Lindsay yet, it certainly has generated enough feed-back of being biased and without canon-based reasoning.

Yes, I sort of like Lindsay. Yes, I saw what was on the forum and went and looked at Lindsay and disagreed with what people have been writing about her. Why? Because (and this is going to sound harsh) it seems that those who dislike Lindsay have confused opinion with canon.

And I think you're confusing strongly felt and well worded opinions with fact. People argue their case especially well in the "Why Lindsay Must Go" thread. But pretty much everything discussed on this forum is opinion, and sometimes strongly worded and felt ones. I think the "Was Danny Responsible in CP?" thread was just as lively a debate as whether or not Lindsay should leave the show, and generated equally strong opinions.

Suddenly Flack doesn't like Lindsay for 'what she put Danny through', and Mac doesn't like Lindsay or her explanations. Danny is ruined because of Lindsay. Danny is better off without Lindsay. See? Lindsay can't be her own character because everything is about Danny. Danny is her prop. Lindsay is annoying. Lindsay should die. Anna can't act. The writers can write brilliantly but they can't write this character.

You're right--those are opinions. Here's some canon for you:

Canon fact: Lindsay has complained about doing her job several times. In "Manhattan Manhunt," she opined that Mac had sent her away from the crime scene because she was a newbie and did not seem happy about it. In "Oedipus Hex" she got irritated with Danny for assigning her the task of speaking with the grieving mother and said something along the lines of, "Sure, stick Lindsay with the jobs no one else wants."

Canon fact: Lindsay left the crime scene in "Silent Night" without telling Stella or offering an explanation.

Canon fact: When Stella tried to talk to Lindsay about leaving the crime scene, Lindsay yelled at her to, "Leave me alone!"

Canon fact: Lindsay stood Danny up, without calling or offering an explanation afterwards (he had to ask).

Canon fact: Lindsay has competed with colleagues before. In "Youngblood" she raced Danny to finish up her work first.

Canon fact: Lindsay has been reluctant to reevaluate evidence when she has a theory she believes is right ("People with Money").

Canon fact: LIndsay tends to focus on herself whether it be at the expense of someone else ("Oedipus Hex"), against her supervisor's advice ("Stealing Home"), or during a case ("Silent Night," "Oedipus Hex," "Stealing Home," "Manhattan Manhunt," etc.).

So there's canon. Obviously, any opinion extracted from this would be just that--opinion. Someone could look at that list and interpret it one way; someone else could look at it and interpret it in a completely different way. Other canon facts could be added in or taken out to support one's opinion. That's what opinion is--an interpretation of the facts.

My view is to each their own. It's great some people like Lindsay; it's great some people don't. It gives us something to discuss. As long as no one is taking his or her opinion as 'canon fact,' we should be fine.

I will happily "prove" my opinion.

And if you understand the way "opinion" works, you'll know you can't. If you can make a compelling case, great, but proving an opinion is an oxymoron. :lol:

Anyway, I'll fully admit that based on my canon list, I don't like her. I think complaining about your work like you're entitled to more than colleagues is obnoxious. I think that leaving work and yelling at a supervisor is unprofessional and immature. I think standing someone up is disrespectful and rude, and I think Lindsay took advantage of Danny's feelings for her in "Oedipus Hex" to manipulate him into talking to the mother. I think Lindsay's comments show a constant focus on herself and an unappealing self-involvement.

That's all just opinion, though, but I'm drawing it from canon fact.

Either way, to each their own. I appreciate the diverse range of opinion on this and any subject, and really enjoy the debate.

 

[ericisacutie]

^^^^^^

Canon fact: Lindsay has complained about doing her job several times. In "Manhattan Manhunt," she opined that Mac had sent her away from the crime scene because she was a newbie and did not seem happy about it. In "Oedipus Hex" she got irritated with Danny for assigning her the task of speaking with the grieving mother and said something along the lines of, "Sure, stick Lindsay with the jobs no one else wants."

Canon fact: Lindsay left the crime scene in "Silent Night" without telling Stella or offering an explanation.

Canon fact: When Stella tried to talk to Lindsay about leaving the crime scene, Lindsay yelled at her to, "Leave me alone!"

Well, she did make up for those.
In OH she did complain to Danny, but at the end she knew that that was her job, so she did speak with the mother.

And in Silent Night, she shouldn't have left the crime scene like that like many people have stated, but she did apoligize to Stella at the end and she told her her problem more or less, so she's trying .

 

[Faylinn]

OMG, so much to read and reply to! :lol:

carolina said:
what I dont understand is why it is OK to dislike Lindsay because of Danny and its weird to like her because of him. it seems a little unfair

People can like or dislike a character for whatever reasons they choose, and I don't think anybody has to defend or justify why they feel that way--if they join a discussion, reasons become important or else the discussion goes nowhere ('I like it,' 'I don't like it', 'I like it', 'I don't like it' ad nauseum), but nobody is forced to share their reasons. Nobody has to take part in a debate or discussion.

Anyway, that's going off-topic a bit, but the point is that people can like Lindsay because of Danny, or vice versa, but saying that Lindsay should "stay" because of him isn't about Lindsay at all, which is the point of the thread. (I think I'm talking in circles with that one. :lol

I thought we are talking opinions, not facts here

Of course we're talking opinions. Even if I don't preface everything I say with, "The following is my opinion:" or "I think", or if I don't end every sentence with "IMO", I'm still just saying what I think. 'Lindsay is irritating' or what-have-you is obviously an opinion.

Elsie said:
I don't agree that Lindsay brought light to the show. The light was already there by then.

I don't understand the idea that Lindsay brought a 'lightness' or anything like that to the show. I think the differences between season one and season two that 'lightened' the show come down to two things:

1) The sets and the colors (the latter of which was changed midway through the first season)--season two had more light in the lab, more color on the walls, more color in the wardrobes, etc.

2.) The cases. Season one had more gritty, realistic cases and less ridiculous, look-at-them-crazy-rich-white-folks cases. (Personally, I think they need to mix in a bit of what they removed to give the show some more of the reality they stripped away.)

Season one wasn't lacking wit, it wasn't lacking humor, it wasn't lacking sparking character interactions--and Lindsay certainly didn't single-handedly change the entire show. Watching the first few episodes of season 2, before Lindsay even arrived, shows that the same differences were already there. If someone prefers Lindsay's interaction with people over Aiden's, for example, that's one thing, but she didn't turn the lights on.

1CSIMfan said:
I was shocked when Hammerback told Lindsay that Danny had a crush on her because it never appeared that way to me.

If I recall correctly, that was before you'd even started talking to us on the board, wasn't it? So you weren't influenced by anything like the WLMG thread, just your own opinions.

retconning - ??

Heh, that makes me think of Torchwood, where 'retcon' is used to wipe people's memories, so I'm assuming it has a similar meaning here.

*Googles*

retcon: To retroactively change the continuity of a character or title.

carolina said:
she tried to prove a point. you dont know Mac as well as you think. it showed she had observation skills - she is a CSI after all. it wasnt like she pulled a file and stalked Mac to find something on him

She felt the need to prove to Danny, who had known Mac for years, that she could find out things Danny didn't know about him--and she felt the need to prove this because Danny thought Mac was genuinely amused by his pun and Lindsay thought he wasn't. That sounds slightly snobby to me. "Look, you may have known him longer, but I knew this before you. Ta-dah!" Also, she kind of did have to stalk him. How many clubs are there in New York City? Knowing that Mac plays guitar and has a standing appointment on Wednesday nights is hardly enough to pinpoint his exact location. Personally, I think it's more creepy than cute that she went to all of that trouble just to prove that she could (and would) go to that much trouble to one-up Danny...

Kimmychu said:
Lindsay is a regular character on the main cast. Ideally by now (after over two years!), she should be a well-developed, independant character.

That's something I've noticed. The things that were 'great' about her character when she first arrived are pretty much the same things that people say are 'great' about her now (wasn't that 'breath of fresh air', 'new perspective' stuff straight from official press releases and the like?). Nothing wrong with that, but shouldn't there be more by this point? After two years with considerable screentime and storylines for development, shouldn't there be more to like about her?

Surreal_44 said:
Those are statements of opinion robed in a fancy title to make it seem like they are more valid and right and important.

Guess what, sweetheart? That applies to you, too. You keep talking about this analysis you're spending time on as if it's somehow more 'valid and right and important' than the rest of us watching the show and forming opinions.

Anytime someone posts that they like Lindsay, or give a reason why, the pack of Lindsay's haters attack

Do you think the Lindsay fans can't defend themselves? (News flash: they can.) Do you think they're too stupid to form their opinions or analyze the facts? (New flash number 2: they're not.) You make a point of continuing to say that you're not really a fan of the character, but here you come, time and again, acting like you're the only one capable of holding the Lindsay banner in this make-believe battle.

I'm tired of being told that I "attack" people just because I disagree and don't hesitate to say so. If someone wants to like Lindsay and not hear opposing viewpoints, they're well within their rights to do so. However, discussion threads probably aren't the place to post and not expect differing opinions. Welcome to a discussion thread. Posting is optional.

Also, if you don't want comments about your 'character analysis' before you post it, it would help if you didn't keep talking about it and all the ways it's going to be the strictly-canon, my-opinion-is-better-then-yours, super spicy awesome-sauce.

 

[kinkapoodles]

If I recall correctly, that was before you'd even started talking to us on the board, wasn't it? So you weren't influenced by anything like the WLMG thread, just your own opinions.

Yes, it was before I ever posted in the NY Forum. It was long before I ever shipped any characters from CSI:NY, too. The first post I ever made in the NY Forum was the night Charge of This Post aired. I didn't even get into spoilers then so when Flack got blown up, I was like So yeah, when Hammerback told Lindsay that, I was surprised.

She felt the need to prove to Danny, who had known Mac for years, that she could find out things Danny didn't know about him--and she felt the need to prove this because Danny thought Mac was genuinely amused by his pun and Lindsay thought he wasn't. That sounds slightly snobby to me. "Look, you may have known him longer, but I knew this before you. Ta-dah!" Also, she kind of did have to stalk him. How many clubs are there in New York City? Knowing that Mac plays guitar and has a standing appointment on Wednesday nights is hardly enough to pinpoint his exact location. Personally, I think it's more creepy than cute that she went to all of that trouble just to prove that she could (and would) go to that much trouble to one-up Danny...

I agree. I wonder how long it took her to figure that out?

 

[catey1234]

Okay, to answer question #1, yes, I would still like Lindsay if Danny and her broke up. I liked her before they were paired up, I will like her afterwards. As for some of her behaviour, yes, it has been less than sterling on occasion, but she's a supporting character on a tv show. Not every character is made to be a loveable, likeable character.

I think Lindsay must stay because she's enthusiastic(crossbow scene, the discussion with Flack in Child's Play).

I think Lindsay must stay because she interacts great with Mac and the team(see The Ride-In).

I think Lindsay must stay because I think she is compassionate. I don't see her so much as selfish as some do, but blaming herself, that it should have happened to her. She blamed herself for Danny taking her shift in Snow Day. (Snow Day)

I like Lindsay, she doesn't irritate me as she does others, I just like her. And has been stated, anything wrote on here is just an "opinion". Everyone has one, as much as they do certain other things. Nothing that has been wrote is changing what I think. You have valid opinions on why you don't like her, I'm not going to pick them apart, that is an exercise in futility. This whole discussion is a stalemate, one that neither side is going to budge on.

 

[dl_shipper34]

Quite frankly, I don't love Lindsay because she is dating Danny. She isn't one of my favourite characters because she is in a relationship with one of my other favourite characters. I love her because IMO she is a strong character. She is one of my favourites (Danny and Sid being the others, although they're all great) because she can hold her own. She has a great personality and brings a breath of fresh air to the show (IMO anyways).

And yes, I would still love Lindsay if DL were to break it off. Danny has nothing to do with me being a fan of her. I may love DL, but I love Lindsay just as much.

this make-believe battle.

That's what I don't get about all this - people are getting so aggravated over someone who isn't real. By all means, hate her. However, I can't understand why people get so upset over a fictional character in a fictional show.

 

[adorelo]

Fictional indeed^. Which is why we are debating (not arguing) over her. Like any book-worm would over a character from a book, or how you do in school, when you comapre writers techniques and critique authors. When we think about the great stars of the past an discuss which pieces of work we liked best. This is a debate.

We're talking detials here, reasons why we like the character or not (charateriztion, actions, ways she has or has not developed. We are fully aware she isn't real and that's why we can engage in healthy debates and discussions over her character. No one's 'aggravated'.

 

[kinkapoodles]

This whole discussion is a stalemate, one that neither side is going to budge on.

Of course neither side is going to budge. Nobody is trying to persuade anybody to see things their way.

That's what I don't get about all this - people are getting so aggravated over someone who isn't real. By all means, hate her. However, I can't understand why people get so upset over a fictional character in a fictional show.

I'm not getting aggravated. I know she's a fictional character. I think everybody in here can agree with that. Like adorelo said, it's just a healthy debate. I know Lindsay isn't real and that's what makes this fun. If Lindsay were a real character, this wouldn't be happening.

Since I don't like Lindsay, it's nice to see exactly what people who do like her see in her. Nothing wrong with being curious.