Who's More Damaged--Danny or Lindsay? Thread #2

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by CSI Cupcake, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    I have to say that you guys are making me think about these characters differently. This is great fun, watching it go back and forth.

    I've always wondered why Danny seemed to shut her down whenever Lindsay would try to do anything personal at work, prior to S5 of course. The condom spray can in "Can You Hear..." and the praise she gave him for helping Hawkes while diving are examples that come to mind. I always chalked it up to him wanting to appear professional while at work, but something Maya316 said makes me wonder if he was trying to hide the fact that their friendship had gone beyond casual bantering at work for another reason. The only time I can remember him even touching her while working was in Boo and they were on location away from the lab.

    Your thoughts please because I hadn't considered it before.
     
  2. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    Yeah, I'm really enjoying it! It's fun to really think about the characters and what makes them tick.

    Even in "Boo" I thought he was pretty professional with her and not really intimate. I think part of it might have to do with Mac--Danny was so focused on impressing him in the early seasons of the show and not seeming like a fuck-up in front of him. Then in "Snow Day" he switches shifts with Lindsay and gets chewed out by Mac for being late. Obviously there were more traumatic things that happened to Danny in that episode, but I think a good deal of how he behaves at work is geared towards impressing his chosen father figure, Mac. So playing footsie with the new girl and being silly with Lindsay at the lab--and flaunting their relationship--wouldn't really lend either of them any credibility at work.

    But I also think there's an element of Danny not knowing what to do with her obvious feelings towards him. Just as deep down he never really seems to think he deserves approval or praise from Mac, I don't think he really thinks he's worthy of being loved, even by Lindsay who he's done so much for.

    It's an interesting question because he clearly was uncomfortable with the flirting at work once they started sleeping together. Stereotypically it's the girl who wants to keep things quiet, but in this case it was definitely Danny.
     
  3. CSI Cupcake

    CSI Cupcake Police Officer

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I've been wanting to see this kind of overall debate that included past seasons for a while since I wasn't around here back when it all happened!

    Yeah, that hand on her shoulder wasn't intimate at all, but it was more than what we had seen in the lab.

    That's what he gets for going out to buy that flower he left her. Bet he didn't try something like that again.:lol:

    But isn't he the girl?:lol:

    I do remember Mac cautioning Lindsay not to catch Danny's "flu" when she lies for him in Playing with Matches (I think) so he knew they were together in some fashion at that point.

    It's hard to define what really happened between D/L in S4 because of the shift in storyline and the writers strike. I keep going back to Lindsay saying she knew him and was not expecting anything in The Box and wondering if it related back to just his actions during the Ruben arc or perhaps something more longterm.
     
  4. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    Glad you're back in it! :D

    Yeah, definitely. I didn't really notice it until I saw the episode rerun a few weeks ago, but it's certainly a gesture any friend could have given to another.

    Danny is definitely the girl. :lol: All joking aside, he's definitely not a typical guy when it comes to his relationships. More often than not, he's the one being pursued. And with Lindsay, he was the one desperate to get married. :lol:

    Yeah, I think Mac is pretty perceptive. I'm sure he picked up on it before then. And really, Danny made it pretty obvious by flying all the way to Montana.

    It's hard for me to blame the writers' strike. I think they were going for something in those early episodes, a distance between the two that was pretty obvious, at least on his part.

    As far as Lindsay saying she "knew him"...I really don't think she does, I think it was just more of the same on her part--making assumptions and judging him. Once again she didn't let him have a say--she decided how she felt about him/how he'd act and that was that. I imagine it was based in part on his actions during the Ruben arc, but it wasn't like they communicated well before that.
     
  5. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I know I'm getting in the middle of a lengthy debate, but this comment struck me. I think him going through Ruben's death is what she was thinking of when she made the "I know you," statement. But to me that just makes her more unsympathetic of a character than she even was before. She's taking him pulling away from her while grieving and feeling guilt over the death of a child as rationale for her thinking he'd just abandon her and their baby. That's a leap even Evel Knievel wouldn't make and just made her sound like a bitch, IMO.
     
  6. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Yeah, I thought so about the woman on the train. :lol: I definitely agree that Danny doesn't exactly go after women, they pursue him first. I think I'm just having trouble reconciling this to Danny's self-esteem because...well, that's kind of a lot of women that pursue him. I guess when they break up, likely it's the girls who do the dumping. And then he assumes they'd gotten from him what they wanted (sex), the only thing he has to offer, but I don't think they're all dumping him for the reason he might think they are. Those girls can't all be the problem. It has to be Danny. His thinking that he has nothing else to offer probably leads him to..you know, not offer anything else. Which would be why he might get dumped. Huh, it does kind of match with one of the problems I see in D/L.

    Which, lol, would be the match to the problem I see in D/L (only explained by Danny's self-esteem issues). Feeling that Lindsay would discover he has nothing else to offer, led him to not offer anything else. I think my main issue is that he always seems to let the situation hit that "point-non-plus" when it's no longer a casual hookup, instead it's a relationship. I can understand him simply responding to attraction. I'm not saying Danny's a player, but it does seem like he's been through the "girlfriend" cycle enough times to know how things will go for him. And I just think that since he already cared about Lindsay even as a friend before they got together, he could've made an extra effort to see that things didn't hit that point-non-plus.

    I don't think he consciously means to shut her out thus hurt her, either. But that's probably another one of my personal issues with Danny. He's so sensitive to behaviour that can hurt him, even behaviour that might not be unkindly meant; but is so unconscious of how easily his own behaviour can hurt people, too. It's perplexing, to say the least. But that might just be his "guy" thing.

    Hmm...I guess the lack of definition to D/L makes it harder to say anything about what they were like as a couple. We didn't get to see much of it in S4; I guess that has it's downsides too. I'm just thinking on what I remember. I wasn't really thinking about her birthday (imo, that was when they were already falling apart, if not completely over), I was thinking more on the few moments we saw at the beginning of S4. Maybe 'uncaring' isn't the right word, but he didn't seem as considerate of her as he was in S3, or even S2. More dismissive of her.

    Maybe not to her, though. Just in general, there weren't that many D/L moments in S4-beginning where Lindsay wasn't getting some kind of brush-off; I just think that says less about their being at work (especially since he was fine flirting with her all over the lab in S2 and 3), and more about a pattern in their relationship.

    No kidding. It makes perfect sense, and I completely agree. I think the only reason she wanted to try was because she'd already hit the point of being in love with Danny - otherwise, she wouldn't have wanted to try. And her behaviour in early seasons makes me think that she'd been doing her best not to hit that point for specifically this reason - so she wouldn't have to try (and flub) any emotional issue with him. She knew from the first that she wasn't good at this sort of thing, that's why I think she was mad at herself for falling for him.

    True, her complaint would've been more legitimate had we seen a scene with her like the one with Angell. He didn't totally turn away in that he barely acknowledged what had happened. But I think this was less to do with him wanting to be reached, and more with him being able to talk about what happened, without actually talking about how he felt about what happened, hoping this makes sense. Like, he didn't want to talk in a way that would deal with the feelings. I mean, he mentioned to Mac and Angell later in that same episode that Kindergartens were the last place he wanted to be looking for murderers right now, but that seemed to just be idle commentary. Neither Mac nor Angell said anything in response, most likely because they knew Danny wouldn't respond well to it (if at all).

    Yeah, but I think we have to make some kind of assumption with that particular episode, because Lindsay's behaviour otherwise is not just inconsistent, it's downright inexplicable.

    I agree with a lot of this, especially about Lindsay being impossible to be convinced about a lot when it comes to Danny. But I just really think he's taking the wrong approach with all of this. If he'd been straight with her from the start, told her that he really wanted to be there for Lucy every step of the way, I really think Lindsay would've been okay with that. Heck, it's why she turned him down the first time he proposed. She knew he wasn't interested in her. She's not malicious, I really can't see her keeping Danny from being involved after he'd specifically made it known that he wanted to be. I doubt she would've married him in that case, but the whole marriage thing was beyond overkill, and the main reason Danny probably feels he has to love Lindsay now, or hope to someday. In which case, he shouldn't have pushed it. He can't really know Lindsay if he thought she'd actually be convinced by her family to stay in Montana away from him. Not when she'd already seen firsthand how much he loved Lucy.

    Well, I think Flack teases Stella plenty, not sure how often the reverse is true, but I'd have to comb over the entire series to find out :lol:

    I can't see anything romantic between them either, in the show, because yeah they seem to be perfectly aware that their link is Danny (I think this is the only reason Flack found it funny when Sam was about to ask if he and Lindsay were dating). I'm just saying that if the writers ever ... in a perfect, parallel universe far away...decided to take things in that direction, it wouldn't completely boggle me, because I think they'd work well. I do think it'd be less infuriating than D/L.

    But calling EMS is hardly making much of a claim, especially when it didn't seem like the paramedics were going to be able to get through. I think Lindsay dragged Danny to the ambulance because it would've been faster than waiting for EMS to get through the crowd to him.

    But what you said at the beginning, about Flack sharing his concern with someone he knew would be equally concerned...that's exactly what struck me about the scene. I think it shows a great deal of respect that Flack knew Lindsay would be just as concerned about Danny, that he didn't treat her as though "she wasn't good enough, therefore didn't care about him." Especially given that, like you said earlier in this thread, she'd actually given very little indication in S3 that she would care about Danny at all. Flack would've had every reason to treat Lindsay like she was a pariah, and he didn't. It showed a fair understanding of her feelings.
     
  7. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I know, it's fun right? :lol: I am totally skipping out on homework here, but I so don't care. I don't know how much it was about him just trying to hide the relationship - I mean, in Snow Day he took her shift. Mac seemed to instantly know why, and Danny likewise seemed to know that Mac knew. He was fine with it then.

    ...Although hey, that might explain why he was a little more uncomfortable later. But I'm just remembering very few times in S4 where Lindsay didn't get brushed off by Danny, long before Child's Play.

    Yeah, but the way they were carrying on at work before they actually started sleeping together makes me wonder how much he thought the actual relationship would make a difference. Look at the people who knew way before S4. Never mind Mac, there was also Adam (the way he looked at Danny after Lindsay made her "beer and buffalo burgers" comment in Daze of Wine....). There was Hawkes ("you're just gonna leave him a note? At least call him, give him a chance to say goodbye"). Presumably there was Flack. There was Stella. How much quieter could they have kept it?


    I agree. Boo was probably the only real episode that Danny seemed even a little reminiscent of the way he'd been in S3/2; a caring friend.

    Totally, join in! :) Lol, I'm guessing it's obvious now that I think it was by far the more long-term thing? I mean, I'm sure the messy breakup couldn't have helped matters much, but just in general, Danny had been showing for a long time that he just wasn't into her. He's been uninterested since, if you ask me, episode one of season four. He was pulling away looong before Ruben was killed. It's not surprising that she wouldn't think he'd be interested in her carrying his child. I don't think what she said was the same believing he wouldn't be interested in Lucy herself.

    I'm sorry if I'm double-posting....
     
  8. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I think there was a kind of defensive cruelty to it. She was trying to protect herself from disappointment, but in a really hurtful way to him.

    Yep, that's kind of the way I see it.

    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy though, and if Danny believes it's him (which I think he does), he probably think it's inevitable that it will end that way. And he had more at stake with Lindsay, who was both a colleague and a friend. It wasn't about the extra effort--he truly couldn't see it ending any other way. Even now, Danny still doesn't quite seem to believe that they're really together, and they're married.

    If he doesn't think he has anything of value to add, how can anyone be hurt by him not putting himself out there? I think that's his take on it.

    Only when she was coming on to him at work or trying to get overly affectionate. I don't think he was ever disrespectful or dismissive of her when they were just working together. It was when she tried to cross the boundaries he'd set up... much in the way she was with him in season three.

    Perhaps if season four was all she had to go off of, but he showed nothing but concern for her in season three. He sent mixed messages about their relationship, but he never implied he didn't care about her as a person.

    Yeah, exactly. She only wanted to try because she was in love with Danny and was invested in him on that level. She couldn't not want to try because of her feelings, but it wasn't something she was comfortable with or relished doing. And I'm sure Danny, as sensitive as he is, picked up on that reluctance--and shied away from it.

    More likely they just didn't know what to say. Danny's comment about that just proves what a big open wound he was during that time--he was constantly aware of it, and if he was totally unwilling to talk, he wouldn't have made that comment. Lindsay can bottle up her feelings for the most part, but Danny has never been capable of that. I still don't feel he brushed Angell off so much as he didn't know what else to say.

    I think it's probably safe to assume she found out about the trial that day...but she still could have cancelled the date rather than just leaving him hanging. It was cruel. I think she subconsciously did want his attention or else why not downplay it? Why do something so outrageous that he has no choice but to confront her?

    Oh, I agree completely about him taking the wrong approach, but this is insecure, needy Danny. He probably saw it as the only approach. As for Lindsay taking the baby from him--I don't know that it wasn't a real possibility. I can totally see where he's coming from on that. She didn't even want to tell him about the baby in the first place, which in his eyes said she was reluctant to have him be a part of the child's life. To Danny, that was a rejection of him, especially coupled with the "I know you" comment. Why wouldn't she think the baby might be better off without him in its life if she really thinks so little of him (at least in his mind)? Keep in mind, this is all being filtered through his massive insecurities.

    I'm pretty sure she has, like in the episode where they were at the black tie gala (blanking on the name at the moment!).

    I think Flack is way too healthy to put up with what Danny did from Lindsay--he'd never go for that.

    Danny was clearly hurt--dragging him anywhere wasn't a good idea, and Flack seemed to know it. If Flack had thought moving Danny was a good idea, he would have picked him up. :lol:

    I doubt Flack knew everything Lindsay put Danny through, but I'm sure he knew she cared about him. At that point, I still think Flack's comment about Danny revealed more about his deep concern for Danny than it did about what he thought about Lindsay. He was too worried not to say anything.
     
  9. JellyBelly

    JellyBelly Lab Technician

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I'm feeling lazy and the quote-ing thing is not my friend today so will just wade into the debate.

    I didn't really see S2 as Lindsay being more into Danny than he was to her. In fact to me S2 was the only season where they seemed to be on the same page, more or less. There was mutual attraction, banter, teasing, flirting and on Danny's part a certain amount of intrigue because she was 'different'. I think Lindsay was always the one to take it a step further though, but I put that down to Danny being a little cautious (which was also evident in S4).

    I'm not a fan of Danny going to Montana but I think that gave Lindsay a message that he was up for more than just drinks and laughs, I really can't blame her for that. By rights, she could have expected Danny to have given up by that point, and that would have been fair enough. As much as Carmine implying Danny went as a friend, it's actually stretching the friendship role to go that far for someone. It's understandable that Lindsay would see it as something deeper. That act alone was probably a big factor in her falling for him so quickly.

    In the courtroom, when Lindsay put her head on his shoulder Danny looked really uncomfortable, but then he was smiling when she leaned in to kiss him. I thought that illustrated Danny's reticence really well. I think he liked her and wanted to be with her, but that she'd messed him around and his existing caution came to the fore. I think that then played out in early season 4 with Lindsay being enthusiastic and Danny being inconsistent.

    I always saw the condom spray scene as Danny being a typical guy at the implication of having to spray something from a can onto his manly bits (not sure what's an acceptable term for this board :)). He certainly seemed to enjoy that demonstration before she put the can in his pocket so I guess it could have been that he withdrew when it became more personal. I still think that was more about workplace behaviour rather than him not being into her - his initial smirk suggests differently imo.

    The conversation in The Deep struck me as embarassment at her praise more than anything else, but again maybe she was hitting too close for work. In Boo the gestures were friendly and supportive, nothing romantic. The whole Batman/Mach 5 debate was fun and bantery. In Commuted Sentences there was definitely a romantic element to their interaction.

    All in all, I think Danny pulling back from her, be that a gradual process as some people see from the beginning of S4, or as a direct result of Ruben's death I believe it had a lot to do with Danny not really trusting her. I can't blame him for that. But, I also felt sorry for Lindsay as she'd sorted out her murky past and there was this guy who had probably done more than anyone else (i.e. flying out to support her) and then he backs off. I can understand her confusion. Having said that, a lot of it could have been prevented if they'd actually sat down and talked about things.

    I'm not saying anything new here, but for me to view Danny sympathetically I also have to do the same for Lindsay. I agree that Danny is insecure but so is Lindsay in her own way, they just exibit it differently. The last time I said this, someone started up a 'who's the more messed up' thread, so I know a lot of people don't agree with me. But, I really do see them as messed up as each other in a lot of ways. I feel sympathy and frustration with them both, in relatively equal measures.

    I do wonder what's ahead for them, what tptb can do to keep the characters going and develop them further. Personally, I really wish they'd done things differently in S5. When the news broke that Lindsay would be pregnant and Danny was the father I really hoped it would have been as a rsult of them having one night, then maybe Lindsay backing off because she found out for certain what had happened with Rikki. I'd have liked to have seen them develop as friends again, even with a baby on the way, then maybe in the future get back together. That would have given both opportunities to develop more as individuals. I'm really not all that interested in the mushy stuff with these two, I can buy that they're in love but I'd rather not have things like the hand holding in the bar in the finale, I'd prefer to see them communicating better. :)
     
  10. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I know! The fact that they're married now is what makes it downright creepy. If Danny believes he's the problem, thus thinks it will inevitably end in his being dumped....well then, it just seems like the logical choice would be to not go down the road in the first place. Leave it at the hookup. I'm not sure Lindsay wouldn't have been hurt by just being a hookup, but I do think she would have gotten over it faster. I know it's not the typical-guy response, but I really can't see that as being a good excuse for what really seems to be flat-out lack of compassion.

    Instead they're married. He's thinking there'll be no other way for this to end except by her leaving him - which is probably going to lead to him leaving her first, like he did before. (Which may be understandable, but isn't any fairer to Lindsay than her always thinking the worst about him is fair to him.) Only now there's Lucy involved and he has Lindsay actually believing (or at least hoping) that he loves her. And when she finds out he doesn't, she's not going to handle it that well emotionally, either. How is this not the quick road to divorce?

    Yeah, I can see this being his take on it. I think what gets me more is that people are hurt by him not putting himself out there. I can't believe that Lindsay is the first.

    Yes. He was great with her when they were just being casual and friendly at work, just like he's always been. They were great when they were friends. It's when the more personal aspect of their relationship came up that he always seemed to pull back. Their being at work makes it harder to say whether that was the factor in his pulling-back, or whether that was just a natural pattern in their relationship. But honestly, I remember the first time I watched DOA for a Day, I wasn't the least bit surprised that Danny had forgotten Lindsay's birthday, because that seemed consistent, in keeping with his part in their relationship during S4. I was more sympathetic, because I knew he was grieving. But if Lindsay's birthday had been during Boo, or one of the other earlier episodes, I don't think he would've remembered it anyway.

    Yeah, but a lot of that S3 concern only seemed to come when Lindsay was someone that was definitely unattainable to Danny - a lot of it disappeared once Danny already had her. And by S5 he'd ...already had her. I know this probably wasn't Danny's thought process, but I can totally see how Lindsay might've seen things that way. I still see things that way, though I have the luxury of not being directly involved, and so can take into account Danny's massive insecurity. I wouldn't be surprised if Lindsay couldn't. She seems to be the one most frequently hurt by this insecurity.

    Yeah, but I don't think that was a good enough reason to shy away. Which I guess is why I see them both as equally culpable. She didn't do everything she could to try, possibly because on some level she didn't want to. But Danny more than anyone should know a) that Lindsay's reluctant with emotional things just in general, and b) it's not easy to relish wanting to get into those messy, emotional things. Because Danny's not exactly the go-to guy for emotional help, either. One thing I've noticed - and I think I've seen this in an interview somewhere, though I'm not sure which one - is that it's always Flack who's there for Danny, we rarely if ever see the reverse. And it was emphasised in Pay Up. It was very obvious that Danny felt bad for Flack, but at the hospital it looked like the last thing he knew how to do was help him. And so he was wary of trying. I think the most supportive thing I saw him do during that episode was the pat on Flack's back at the end. He may be the most emotional character, but I think he's at least as successful as Lindsay is when it comes to giving emotional support.

    ETA: Sorry, I know I should rephrase that last line. He's good at giving emotional support to Lindsay. Not really anyone else, as far as I've seen.

    I guess Mac and Angell might not have known what to say. But I found it telling, because if that was the case, then none of the people on this team really know how to help with emotional problems. And you'd think that would make Danny shy away from them, too, but he didn't. (Which would also mean he was basically turning to everyone but Lindsay.) So I can't think he made that comment wanting to talk - I think he was just referring to what happened, as a way of blowing off steam and emotion, maybe. I don't think he expected them to say anything, and I don't think Mac and Angell ever would have.

    I think the fact that she forgot to cancel was supposed to emphasize the trauma of the trial - I think Danny probably would've confronted her anyway, even if she had called to cancel (because during his speech at the end of the episode, he didn't mention the date once). Danny did ask her if her "phone wasn't working" when they were at the scene, and she apologized - it didn't sound like it made her look good in his eyes. So talk about a misfire, if she did it to get his attention.

    Yeah, but considering Lindsay's filter when it comes to Danny doesn't make her behaviour any less harsh to him. I can see totally see why she misjudged him when she said "I'm not expecting anything", but I do think she misjudged him. Similarly, I can see the filter Danny was thinking through - over the top, but that's kind of characteristic for him - he was all "she'll take Lucy and never come back if I don't give her a reason to stay". But it was still a misjudgement of Lindsay, and kind of cruel, considering he used the one thing he knew was guaranteed to make her stay. Her feelings for him, which he already knew for a fact she had.

    Oh yeah, I remember what episode you're talking about. The moment in his new girlfriend's apartment, right, where Stella was all "she's going to get all kinds of invitations to the in parties" - or something?

    Exactly.:hugegrin: It's a healthier start already, and I think Lindsay honestly needs someone to tell her right away that if she wants a relationship, she has to want it all right from the start. She can't just decide she wants some parts of it one week, and then not want any of it for the next couple months, then decide she wants all of it (emotions and everything), and then get pissed off because the guy suddenly doesn't want all of it.

    Lindsay's part in the D/L mess is very in keeping with her character. I just wish they didn't need the D/L mess to be a part of it.

    I don't think Flack would put up with it for a second, but I really think Lindsay needs that. (Or she would, if she wasn't into self-destructive relationships.) Additionally, Flack has a degree of reserve to his character that isn't in Danny's, but is very reminiscent of the reserve in Lindsay's.I don't think there would be as much emotional yo-yo-ing.

    Lol, I'd've been up for seeing that ;)

    If he was just venting his worries, he could've vented to one of the other members of his SWAT team. I do think Flack's comment revealed a lot about how concerned he was for Danny, but I still found it a little touching that he knew Lindsay would be just as concerned. That he thought so at all doesn't speak to resentment or rivalry, in my eyes. It seems to me if he actually resented her or saw her as a rival, he'd probably try to downplay her feelings, especially given what happened in S3.

    I've always been under the impression that Flack knew a lot about what was going on between Lindsay and Danny (because, best friend, and even Hawkes seemed to know).
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  11. Maya316

    Maya316 Lab Technician

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    Hey, welcome! :) I agree to a certain extent about Lindsay in S2 not being more into Danny - I think she was very into him, which he responded to, but he might've been expecting something different than I think she had in mind. I think at the very least, he had every intention of being friends with her (even though their interactions at the beginning were hostile enough to make me wonder). I'm not sure whether just a casual fling was what she had in mind for Danny in S2, but I do think she never had any intention of getting emotionally involved with him. Was Danny being cautious? He was the one making the weird "I'll ask you to marry me" comments. Sid actually identified Danny's crush before he did Lindsay's (I think).

    I think I would've been fine with it if they'd left it at the hug, after the trial. It's one of my favourite Danny Lindsay friendship moments, because I think that one scene (looking without romantic blinders) encompasses every reason that Danny is the only one Lindsay is really close to on the team. He's the only one who literally forced his way through her shell, even after she'd repeatedly told him to back off and kept him at the same distance she keeps everyone else (which she was doing way before season 3). But the romantic connotations ruin everything. In light of Danny's crush, I can definitely see how she'd see something huge in the fact that he showed up in Montana for her.

    Lol! Yeah, I can see how the condom-spray thing would easily have been about discomfort in the workplace, so maybe it was unfair to say that he'd been pulling away from the very first episode of Season 4. They actually didn't seem too bad there, almost reminiscent of S2/3.

    See, the conversation in The Deep is when I first saw him as pulling away, and I'm not convinced that this was just because they were in the workplace. I mean, it's not like she was saying "I was so worried, you're so brave" -- she was actually approaching the subject in a very roundabout way that seemed perfectly appropriate for the workplace, so I found the brush-offs kind of unnecessarily harsh. Especially given that Lindsay almost never admits things like that, and he knows it. And I agree about their interactions in Boo, and the Mach5 thing, and even Commuted Sentences (until she tried to ask him if she'd impressed him). Their interactions were like they were in S2, friendly bantering. They're great at that. It's the personal aspect that seemed to be an issue, for Danny anyway.


    Yeah, it feels like the one thing they haven't done to sort out their issues is talk about them. At the very least, I'm expecting to see them in marriage counseling during S6. (Well, I wish anyway) I can see how Danny wouldn't trust her, although it does kind of suck that he decides not to trust her once he has her admitting feelings for him she's never admitted before.

    Wow, where is that thread? I've always thought it was clear from the first that Lindsay was emotionally crippled. I guess to some extent, I saw Danny as having emotional problems too, but he always seemed so much easier with people, with friends, than Lindsay was. So I never even thought they might be huge emotional problems until this debate started. But yeah, they definitely have their equal share in this mess, and even an equal degree of personal destruction. They may well be the two most messed-up characters on the show. I mean, even Mac seems able to reach out to Stella in a healthy way. I'm hoping for the writers to cancel out the D/L mess altogether, but you know I think I could actually get behind the writers actually showing us the working-out of this mess. The most enjoyable D/L scene I've ever watched was the breakup in Right Next Door, because at least they seemed to be addressing their issues. Sort of.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  12. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I definitely saw her as the pursuer, but he did respond to her. You're right that she was the one always to take it a step further--and indeed, was the one who initiated their sexual relationship as well. And their first kiss, both in the COtP cut scene and in the courtroom in 318. Danny being cautious is an interesting way of putting it--I can see that.

    Probably, and I think Carmine meant Danny went as a friend because of the way she treated him all season. Danny wasn't going to put himself out there again like he had before.

    Agreed, definitely.

    She should have told him straight up about her past so he could have understood where she was coming from. It's hard for me to feel bad for her or understand her confusion about him backing off after the way she treated him for most of season three.

    I'd probably call it sad before creepy. I think he believes he's doing the right thing, trying to love her and be a family. You can tell he wants that, a happy family, very much.

    I don't know that he'd leave her. I don't really see him doing that, if for no other reason that it would probably kill him to lose his kid. I could see him getting distant again, though.

    I doubt he realizes that or has made that connection though.

    I think it's the same thing as the "I'm mad at myself" line. It was designed to put him down and make him feel bad, probably as a defense mechanism. It was childish and cruel--she should have gone to him like an adult and given him some time to digest the news and make his own decision. So much of the reason Lindsay comes off as unlikable is things like this. Danny can be maddening, but at least you can see him trying to do the right thing.

    It was reason enough for him not to turn to her. She wasn't reaching out to him when he had reason to expect her to be, so I think it's fair enough that he shied away from her. I get that--I'd probably do the same.

    I don't know about that--he's been really supportive of Hawkes in various episodes, and of course with Lindsay in season three. Danny at least tried with Flack. He showed up at the hospital after hearing about Angell at least. I thought the wall punch was really stupid, but he was there, and the pat on the back later was nice. Danny does try, even if he's not very good at it. With Flack in particular, Flack is Danny's own pillar of strength, and usually puts up a stoic front no matter what. I don't think Flack ever looked at Danny as someone who would provide emotional support; to Flack, Danny is someone he takes care of. And I imagine Danny has gotten used to that dynamic in their relationship.

    Yeah, but unlike Lindsay, Mac and Angell are just Danny's colleagues. Mac isn't good at emotional stuff either, but he made the effort in "Child's Play." And he's Danny's chosen father figure, so that plays into it as well. I don't think Danny made a conscious choice to talk to them--I think he was just so raw and in so much pain it just came out. I agree that he was just blowing off steam and emotion.

    Yeah, entirely possible. She still could have given him a better explanation the next day.

    Yeah, but we're talking about the guy who thought it was a good idea to sleep with the mother of a child who's death he felt responsible for as a bandage. Danny's a survivor, and he knows how to use what he has to keep people happy with him. I think it's more sad than anything, but I can see how it feels a little cruel. I think it's mostly desperation--he doesn't want to lose his kid, and she seemed to not want him involved right off the bat.

    Something like that, and I think at the formal party. They banter--it's something that's really fun to watch.

    I guess I just don't ever see Flack going for her. Eddie said in one of his interviews that Flack would never have put up with the "Yes, no, yes, no, yes." I don't think Flack ever would have fallen for her. He's into women who are made of stronger stuff.

    Me, too! It would have been hot, and very sweet.

    I don't think Flack would talk to a stranger like that, though.

    Not that moment, no. But I think Danny in danger eclipsed whatever rivalry there was between them.

    Probably. Danny's definitely a talker. :lol:
     
  13. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    The spoiler thread has kind of gone off on a really interesting tangental discussion about this, so rather than continuing to divert it, I figured I'd move the most recent posts over here to allow the discussion to flourish...and the spoiler thread can go on it's merry way, lol. :)
     
  14. JellyBelly

    JellyBelly Lab Technician

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

    I can see that. When I first watched the episode I believed it was just embarassment on Danny's part and him not wanting to be treated like the hero of the hour. But, Danny being hesitant or cautious and backing off a little fits in the context of the season as a whole. My problem with that though is that I don't want to see Danny as being an ass. I get that for those who think Lindsay's treated him badly, Danny's withdrawal is justified. While I agree that she treated him badly in S3 I did feel sympathy towards her, in the same way I felt sympathy towards Danny in S4 despite the fact he'd hurt her. I guess that because I sympathise with both of them I can't really get on board with the S3 Lindsay's a bitch view, or the S4 Danny's an ass view (which seem to be the two ends of the spectrum I've seen expressed in the fandom).




    Here's the thread http://talk.csifiles.com/showthread.php?t=56861. You'll see the majority felt that Danny was more damaged. A view I strongly disagree with, I think his damage is apparent through his everyday self (if you look deep enough), whereas Lindsay desperately tries to hide hers.

    And I'd agree with that if Danny hadn't started a 'relationship' with her. The fact he started something and then backed off, while I understand it and don't entirely blame him, it does bring out my sympathies for Lindsay.

    Hey! How'd I end up in this thread? Clever!!
     
  15. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    Re: CSI:NY Spoiler Discussion - Bring on Season 6!

     

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