The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

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Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well MissDee...I didn't see it like that. To me the topic of how some ship fans take a scene that didn't amount to much and MAKE a huge deal over it. The thing is every SHIP does that. Including GSR regardless if they are canon or not. It happens
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what Dee was trying to say i think is that there are two types of scenes.

Type A - ambiguous scenes that can either go completely unnoticed OR can be interpreted by some part of the audience as an indication of an attraction between the two (or three) characters. even if noticed, they can be also viewed as a friendly talk, occasional flirting or nothing particurarly shippy.

Type B - very obvious scenes where it is plainly said/suggested that one of the characters (or both) would like to pursue a romantic relationship with the other, OR (like recently with GSR) confirm the canonness of this ship.

most ships base their existance on the first type of scenes. i would say that the main example of it is Snickers. whereas GSR had both kind of scenes and recently most of them are type B. Sandles definitely had some Type B scenes (with Greg liking Sara) as well as YoBling.
that's why i think it's a bit foolish to deny that there has NEVER EVER been anything between two charaters that had a type B scene(s).

in the instance of CatNip, there's never been a scene where Nick or Catherine admitted they liked each other in *this* way. they did flirt but it's not something plainly suggesting willingness to pursue a romantic relationship. so the muscle scene is still Type A. if Cath would add "want to meet me off-shift and explore some more flesh?" i would agree it was a definite Type B. she didn't though.

so even if you don't like a certain ship, let's say YoBling or GSR, you cannot deny there is/was something deeper than occasional flirting there. not b/c i say so, but b/c it has been shown on screen. however, you can stay in your bubble and live in denial, lol.

does anybody get my point?
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Why everybody think Nick and Greg are gay? I don't remember they flirt with each other. I know Nick care about Greg. I don't see it between those two. I'm sure they do have chemistry with each other as best friends, not lover.

I didn't said that Sara love Nick or Greg. I said she does care about them and she love them as her big brother and little brother. She don't see them as her lover. She is very much in love with Grissom.

I also didn't said that Catherine like Warrick. I just saw her face that she didn't like Warrick from the beginning. Catherine's and Warrick's chemistry are out the window. They miss something or lack something.

Catherine and Nick- they still have it. Nick tell Catherine almost everything. She was there for Nick and let him go solo and not anymore for the last two years. She is not going to lose him again.

Grissom and Sara- I finally see this couples this year and they finally lighten up and happy. I still enjoy Grissom, he does come up with the joke once in a while.

Grissom and Catherine- I still like them, but they are number 3 in my shippers.

Sara and Nick- They are still my number one favorite shippers followed by GSR now.

If you bash my Snickers and GSR. Don't mess with me, but I won't bash your. I'm a peace maker. I don't usually said anything, I just let it go.

I write Snickers and GSR story. I can't seem to write Grillows, I don't know why. When I do write Grillows, I put them with Snickers. I will soon write Catnip with GSR on my next story. I won't write Sandles, Love or Yobling, less it friendship, I will write that.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'm going to delurk, finally, and add to the discussion. *throws confetti over self*

I love shipping. Although I have my prized ship for this show, I support everyone's right to ship whomever whenever. Shipping is fun, because it allows you to read loads into the smallest gesture, the briefest exchange. In a show like CSI that very seldom gives us insight into the characters' personal lives, shipping is a wonderful way to enter into a beloved fictional universe and engage in some imaginative play. Shippers build their own forts in pretend-land, and are allowed to play by whatever rules they like. That's the awesomeness of Shippery.

That being said, the fictional universe in which we play is also being manipulated by the architects of the show. Sometimes we find our fantasy constructions made canonical. Sometimes we don't. Since, for me, shipping is all about fantasy and fun, the canon isn't necessarily a dealbreaker for certain ships. Yes, Nick and Greg canoncially crush on women, but that doesn't make it any less fun to spy out slashy moments between them. Yes, GSR is canonical, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the frisson of a Sandle or Grissom/Lady H exchange.

Now, I love GSR. I have always loved it. But GSR (and a few other ships I'll get to in a moment) is different from other ships on the show. Yes, GSR shippers have been known to read more into Grissom/Sara moments than those moments canonically support (the hallmark of shipping!), but even before an actual romantic relationship between Grissom and Sara became canon, a romantic attraction between the two was canonized. They have that nebulous relationship prior to her moving out to Vegas, she asks him out, he says no but later has his famous Butterflied fugue where his desire for her is palpable. GSR, then, is categorically different from Nick/Greg or Snickers (though not, I emphasize better--that is a purely subjective point). It has always been hardwired into the show; it has, to some extent, always been canon.

Other romantic attractions have been canonized: Catherine's attraction to Warrick (and his to her in that near-kiss scene), Sofia and Grissom's mutual attraction, Grissom and Lady H's mutual attraction, Greg's attraction to Sara, Hodges and Wendy's mutual attraction, the Undersheriff's attraction to Sofia. (I'm probably missing one or two, but I'm tired of listing.) None of these romantic attractions has become a canon relationship, but, dollars to donuts, if another ship becomes canon on CSI (and it probably will only be one), it will be one of these canonized attractions. As it will likely also involve a headliner (as they are the ones who get the lion's share of the dramatic interest on this show), it will undoubtedly feature Catherine. My money is on YoBling, as it has had the most momentum in the Catherine canon of late, but, as CatNip was very nearly canon when the show started, I can't rule out a return to that one.

Now, when it comes to shipping, something strange happens when fantasy aligns with canon. There can be (and I make no accusations here!) some self-righteousness on the part of the shippers and some overwrought defensiveness on the part of anti-shippers. Most of this has to do with the fact that when something becomes canon, it becomes more visible. More visible relationship moments are fabulously exciting for those who support the canon ship, but maddening for those who don't (or who support a ship involving one of the characters in the canon ship), partly because those moments are so privileged, that the shippy moments anti-canon-shippers favor seem neglected or more sparse. I totally get this. I can also understand the debate that wonders whether canonizing a romantic relationship on a show like CSI, which is generally so taciturn when it comes to characters' personal lives, qualitatively changes the show.

I think it does change the show, although I think it is a change for the better. After six years, CSI needed to do something to become fresher. I find it fascinating that the change they made was essentially a generic one, nudging the crime procedural ever so slightly closer to a serial drama. For me, the change totally works. I have liked the GSR, Greg, and MSCK arcs because they have challenged the lather-rinse-repeat structure of the procedural. For me, the GSR thing also works because it involves the principal character of the show, Gil Grissom. Over seven years, one expects a little character development (unless you are into typological characterization--and it's cool if you are--it's just not my cup of tea), so I'm glad Grissom has been given a personal life and someone to love. It's not really surprising that that person is Sara, since she has been the character who most actively and consistently challenges him about his affective life since season one.

I'm not saying anyone has to love GSR, (although I do!). But, I think there is a preponderance of evidence that GSR has emerged organically, so I don't think the argument that it is false or an imposition really reflects the show's seven-year narrative arc. I can understand people not liking GSR, because they don't like Sara and Grissom together, or because they prefered it when the show was purely procedural. But I don't get the argument that GSR is something invented to compete with Grey's Anatomy, or better left in the realm of pure fantasy like other ships (because it was never "pure fantasy," nor is it, given its series-long canonization, like most other ships).

Finally, I would like to reiterate that I think shipping is a wonderful and integral part of being a fan of show. I think all of the ships on this show are great fun. But since so many ships are wholly fantastic and, given this show's reticence to involve its characters with one another romantically, likely to remain so, why can't we just love the ships for what they are? I never let canon stand in the way of my favorite ships (Henry be damned! Daniel and Betty are so meant for each other on Ugly Betty!). My imagination is strong enough to accomodate the canon for my beloved, non-canonical ships. I'm sure all of our imaginations are powerful enough to accept one another's ships and to coexist peacefully in happy, shippy land.

Whew. Now I can go back to lurking.

ETA: I totally agree with you Adz. Well put.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I never seen a delurker post that much before. Its usually, the "shut the hell up already" type things.

xx

I think the fact is what Sarah said, we can all argue, make points until we're blue in the face, some people just don't see things that you or even I might see in our ships.

Some people ship based on Chemistry, some ship based on just people going canon like Ad over there. I'm just kidding :D, some ships things on what seems to go canon. Some ships things just to annoy the hell outta me. Again, like Ad now that one you do.

xx

I believe CatNip has a great chance of going canon, they have the chemistry, they care about one another, able to talk to each other, and their angsty moments is hot as hell. Plus, being the original does kickass. The point is, if CatNip ever goes canon, and I'll try not to smirk and say I told ya so, never doubt the smaller ships damnit! We have a way biting you on the ass.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Wow, a lot has happened since yesterday night...

I'm not going to go into the apparent ship bashing that has been going on *eeks* but I will say that Twins had some really good points, and said it better than I ever could have. :lol:

I agree with many of the things that have been said, but I can't agree with the statement some people aren't as good of fans because they don't ship certain people, or ship what the character supposedly wants. I know it's cannon that both Nick and Greg like girls, and we can't deny that, and I don't consider myself less of a fan because I like to see Greg with Nick and see chemistry there, instead of seeing Greg with Sara, which is cannonly what he has wanted.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Great points CathStokes! I also agree with a poster earlier that the next canon relationship will involve Catherine! That is almost a given, but I also can see CSI going down a completely different road than what is expected. I think Catnip has a big chance of turning canon!
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

The beauty of being a shipper is that there are so many possibilities. What one fan sees as being the ultimate sign that two characters are together, another fan will look at and think 'blah, whatever. I see nothing there' only to turn around and go 'OMFG! Did you see what just happened!? They are soooo together' about two other characters.

The beauty of being a multishipper is that it reflects open mindedness and an ability to see where other people are coming from, and not get too bogged down in one ship that you defend that ship like your life depends on it, flaming and abusing anyone or anything that mentions any sort of contradictory remark, leading to insults and a major fight.

In my opinion, GSR fans do not need to defend their ship. It is canon. Everyone knows it is canon. People can say they don't like it and would rather Grissom or Sara be with someone else, but the fact is people, It. Is. Canon. Thus, GSR fans do not need to go on and on about proving this or that or slamming anyone. All they have to say is "have you been watching season 7?" and end it at that. You can't argue with it.

As for the other ships, each to their own. We see what we want to see. Some people can see Nick and Greg flirt outrageously with each other (I do), and some just see good friends. Some people can see that Sara flirts with Nick and Greg (though now nothing will come of it), some will stand by the fact (to the death even) that her eyes are only for Grissom.

Adzix breakdown of the two types of scenes is true. CSI is made up of mainly Type A scenes that can be read any way one wants to read them, with a few Type B scenes in the mix as well though not as many.

One Type A scene that my sister, a Nick/Grissom shipper, loves to point out is in Strip Strangler when they are all at breakfast together. We don't realise until Nick gets up to grab his food that Grissom has his arm drapped along the back of the seat. This can be read two ways - Grissom has his arm there because it's comfortable, or Grissom has his arm around Nick without it being obvious. It's all about what you want to see.

The point of this thread is to debate about the different ships and their evidence, and possibly which will be the next ship to become canon (money on either YoBling or Cuff'Em though I'd love it to be The Love). It is not about personal attacks. Just because someone disagrees with your evidence about your ship they are simply reading it a different way, not attacking you. Don't flame them.

We all have ships we dislike. Personally, while I accept GSR, I believe they are forcing it upon the viewers this season. We don't need it every single episode, and Grissom doesn't need to work with Sara every single case. Mix it up a bit, show a few less moments, and suddenly they mean so much more. They're more precious. CSI is about the case, finding out who done it, the evidence, not who is sleeping with who.

Butterflied is actually one of my favourite episodes because it was just put together so beautifully without slamming the relationship in your face, and I almost cried in that final confession scene and got the shivers when I realise Sara was watching. But by putting so much GSR in, TPTB are in fact creating a bigger opposition to the relationship. There such a thing as too much of a good thing.

I myself get a thrill every time I see Nick and Greg on screen together. I'm a shipper of The Love to the core. I also grin every time Jim and Sofia share a scene, and I love Grissom/Catherine interaction as they are so much like an married couple. Jackpot was great for Grissom/Catherine with all the jokes about her being 'Grissom's wife'. Grissom himself found it amusing.

There is, in effect, something for everyone in CSI. There is evidence for everything. Some see it, some don't, but don't get insulted if someone else disagrees. There is no right or wrong here, just opinion.

By the way, Adzix, I'm copying down your Type A/Type B summary for future reference. I will give you full credit.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well said Clarissani. I may have said something to that effect, but I hate typing, and you said it better than I could've anyway :lol:

I would love to see YoBling! Go cannon next. I've shipped that longer than The Love, and... I don't know what I would do if Cath took Nicky away... lol.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Pesonally, I may have overdone it.

I've recently become a fan of Cuff'Em, and after rewatching some of the older episodes I have noticed the subtle flirtation going on between Jim and Sofia from the moment that they met. And, of course, who can go past 'I Like to Watch' when he asked her to "pop a few buttons" and the major flirtation that went on thereafter...
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

*shrugs* oh well.
I've never seen anything between Brass and Sophia. I wouldn't mind seeing them get together, though. Brass needs a lady :p
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I've never actually noticed anything between Sofia and Brass before... However, I have never really paid attention :lol:

Brass needs to be single forever, I like single Brass (Well - okay, we've never witnessed a Canon relationship with him before..)
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I never paid attention either. lol. Mostly cause I ship Sofia with Greg. so. lol.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Jim flirts with both Sofia and Catherine. I personally think he get some sort of thrill from getting shot down by Catherine - good episode early on where they were eating and he makes reference to marriage and she says "never happen". His reaction is hilarious.

I don't mind Sofia/Greg either, but we haven't seen much of that lately. Unfortunately. Basically because we haven't seen much of Greg.

I doubt we'll ever actually see Jim in a relationship; he's one of the overlooked characters of CSI in terms of relationships. But he and Sofia have had their moments the seasons, and if they ever do pair Jim off with someone, I hope it's either a new character or Sofia.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I can't see Brass with either, but I too agree with gsrlove that I like seeing a single Brass...lol

I have noticed though, time and time again that Brass has flirted with both Catherine and Sofia, but I've seen it more with Cath.

As for the other ships, there are ones that the producers obviously want to push and others that are more subtle and those that the viewer would like to see. People have made some good points, and some questionable points, but I think that liking a certain ship is up to the individual themselves. It doesn't necessarily make them more of a fan, NOR does it make them less of a fan.

I support certain ships, but won't rule out other possiblities......anyway, my opinions only.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I'm just gonna say that Catherine DOES like Warrick. (To some older responses. I don't argue that Greg doesn't like Sara, he does.)

I'm also going to say that if anyone was upset/offened over anything I said - if you're super pissed, get a sense of humor - if you were merely sadend, I'm sorry.

:)

I do LOVE everyone here. There are some others sites that makes me want to PULL my hair out. lmao
 
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