The Great Ship Debate - CSI:Crime Scene Investigation

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Re: The Great Ship Debate

I don't really know much about Cath/Nick except that the original plan was for those two to be in a relationship of sorts during the first season and for some reason it was shelved. Anyone know why they did that?

Yeah CSI at the time didn't want relationships on the show...

don't see how you could chalk the ratings loss up to anything but Grey's. They had their lowest ratings of the season last night, but still pulled in 20+ million people. The same time slot last year on ABC pulled in 9 million. So they've managed to better that time slot by 10 million people even on Grey's lowest night this season. CSI's down an average of about 5 million from last year. I have a hard time believing that CSI's loss of 5 million viewers has nothing to do with that timeslots gain of 10 million viewers.

I say this because lately GA hasn't been competeting with CSI on thursday nights. For example, last night was a new show for grey's while csi had a rerun, and Grey's numbers still went down. They have continually dropped in their ratings (Greys that is). When CSI is new, and doesn't compete against a new Grey's...there numbers are still no where near last years. I'm saying that picking GSR has caused a strife, and sorry but its obvious that it has. Regardless, if you like GSR or are indifferent to it...it has pissed off a lot of other fans.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Hestia said:
eggbe4thechicken said:
I liked old!Sara
:eek: Old Sara was depressed, drinking, had no social life, and was without a boyfriend, and when she did have a bf it turned out he already had a girlfriend. :mad:
The 'new!Sara' is happier, no longer alone and moping. She has someone now, and he's a good guy too.
I don't really understand you liking the old Sara, care to explain?
Well, I can't answer for ollieuan but I can guess at what he's getting at. :)
In the earlier seasons Sara was happy, flirty, and overall a kick-butt girl. Then TPTB for whatever pre-determined reason, decided she was in love with her boss, and what's she was going pine after Grissom. She asked him out (he refused), she kept dropping hints like anvils (he sent mixed signals) and slowly but surely, our beloved "old!Sara" got depressed. Some people might even say a large part of her "depression, drinking, and lack of a social life" was because of her boss. (does this make Grissom a bad guy? Eh, you decide.)

I for one don't really think he caused her drinking, but she was turned from a smart, headstrong, serous character into an angsty woman dependant on validation from her boss (and, oh yeah, let's add some emotional baggage as well.) :eek:

So yeah, a lot of the angst and depression around Sara seemed to, more often than not, involve Grissom in some way. Now that she's got him, she's happy. All she needed to be a complete, happy person was to bag the emotionally reserved man of her dreams. (I don't mean to be cynical but that comment kind of bothered me, and ollieuan isn't here to answer. Hope I did him justice - he's an excellent debater here! ;))
Thank you kindly, ma'am. Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

You really hit the nail on the head. For the first two seasons I absolutely adored Sara. She was a strong, independent, mostly content woman who I think could have served as a role model for young women. Of course, she did have some self-esteem issues, but who wouldn't after having the childhood that she had? To drive my point further home, who was the main person who exacerbated her insecurities? Grissom. you can debate that if you like, but the only other person who ever seemed to agitate her was Catherine, and that wasn't very often. Plus, if anything, she had more of a rivalry with Catherine. Grissom, on the other hand, made her feel insecure. Granted, he has that effect on many people (such as Nick and Greg), but with Sara it was always different.

So, of course, those insecurities eventually made Sara dEpReSsEd because omg her boss doesn't like her and her ex-bf ttly cheated on her!!! At this point Sara started to grate on my nerves. But I noticed an improvement at the beginning of season 6 (which is likely before GSR began). She finally seemed to be comfortable in her own skin. She finally seemed like she was confident in herself. Then, lo and behold, we find out at the end of the season that she's dating the old man. Which...WTF.

So, that's why I don't like Sara anymore. She started off strong-willed, then let her yearning for an emotionally unavailbale man get in the way of her self-confidence, THEN let her self-worth be completely compromised by allowing the same asshat who made her feel like pond scum only a season or two before into her life when HE decided HE was ready.

Nothing about that screams strong, independent female. My, how the mighty have fallen. THAT is the cliff's notes version of why I don't like new!Sara.

I understand that most people aren't as critical as I am, but Grissom's past behavior will NEVER allow me to even entertain the notion of GSR being a sustainable ship. That is why I can't watch anymore. Sure, there really aren't that many squee-worthy moments between the two, but the pairing is so unbelievable in my eyes that it just makes the whole show seem ludicrous. I never really liked Grissom all that much, and I expected so much more from Sara. Considering they get a considerable chunk of screentime between the two of them, if I can't stand the characters what is the point in watching?
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I say this because lately GA hasn't been competeting with CSI on thursday nights. For example, last night was a new show for grey's while csi had a rerun, and Grey's numbers still went down. They have continually dropped in their ratings (Greys that is). When CSI is new, and doesn't compete against a new Grey's...there numbers are still no where near last years. I'm saying that picking GSR has caused a strife, and sorry but its obvious that it has. Regardless, if you like GSR or are indifferent to it...it has pissed off a lot of other fans.

Then how do you explain the almost equal percentage ratings losses for Lost and Desperate Housewives? Or the multi-episode ratings dive that American Idol took when compared with last year? Or the fact that Ugly Betty and Grey's Anatomy are sliding. Or the fact that even with its drop, CSI is still the number one highest rated scripted show on TV?

I think it says that people are watching less TV in general and that free downloads are hurting the networks.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

think it says that people are watching less TV in general and that free downloads are hurting the networks.

That could be true, but I also know GSR has had an impact. Don't get me wrong...I don't think CSI sucks because of GSR...I just think it has affected the ratings. But...I'm sure others will disagree and say GSR Rules, and at the same time have others say GSR sucks.

TO me GSR is such a controversy couple...most people either really like them...or don't care for them. I happen to be indifferent, but who knows what I will think after this ridulous season finale. :rolleyes:
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Then how do you explain the almost equal percentage ratings losses for Lost and Desperate Housewives? Or the multi-episode ratings dive that American Idol took when compared with last year? Or the fact that Ugly Betty and Grey's Anatomy are sliding. Or the fact that even with its drop, CSI is still the number one highest rated scripted show on TV?
ITA. although i think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. i do think there are some people there that got thrown off by GSR this year, but i think it's not a number significant enough to show in ratings. i don't think it's in millions, cuz, let's be honest here, many people don't really care who is with who as long as the cases are good.

and this month season 7 has been named the best yet, by some proffesional critics. so i don't believe it has much to do with GSR. and i'm saying this not b/c i like GSR, but b/c this is how i see it, and what average people who watch CSI tell me. some of them don't like GSR, but they still watch.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

IMO Cath only gets the label of being a 'bitch' because she stands up to Grissom like nobody else does.
I was only saying that she was bitchy in Cool Change. ;) (Oh, but she was also bitchy in the episode where the two of them go out to the middle of nowhere to process a shop, I don't remember the ep name. :confused:)

but there was a reason GSR was voted angstiest couple.
For me, it makes the ship more real. IRL it isn't all fairy dust and cake. :)

She was most happy around Greg, and that's all I need to hear.
Yeah, before, but now it's when she is with Grissom. ;)

Question? But how does dating start? If I'm correct it starts by flirting! What do you think Grissom/Sara did for 6 years? Flirt. Or shall I say Sara flirted with Grissom while grissom flirted with Catherine.
Grissom and Sara knew each other in San Franscico, so all the first stages of flirting must have been done there. Maybe something happened in SF, which caused the angst when she moved nearer? We might never find out?

However, the ratings are down compared to last season. Wonder why?
The show is into it's 7th season, doesn't this usually happen with shows? The hard core keep watching, but the ones who watched it before because it was new have just stopped watching. It's what I do with some shows. I don't think it has that much to do with GSR. It takes up hardly any part of the show. What's the longest scene they've had this season? Like 40 seconds? :lol:

For starters they seemed sort of couplish on the show in the earlier seasons.
I think they used to be really good friends. (and I really miss that too.) Remember her giving advice to Grissom to pull his head out of the microscope? Someone who wants to be in a relationship with someone doesn't send them off in the direction of someone else.

But I noticed an improvement at the beginning of season 6 (which is likely before GSR began).
Meh. It's undecided really, but IMO the scene in Bite Me was a canon scene, and that ep was 3rd ep into season 6. Actually, I think her character has taken a back seat lately. It's more of a Catherine, Grissom, Greg show now, with the other characters barely in it. Whereas in the early seasons it was a lot more varied, which would give you more of an insight into how they are emotionally at any given time.

i don't think it's in millions, cuz, let's be honest here, many people don't really care who is with who as long as the cases are good.
Or if you're like me 70 year old going crazy Grandad, then you watch the show because 'that brunette girl is fwaorrr!' :lol:
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Or if you're like me 70 year old going crazy Grandad, then you watch the show because 'that brunette girl is fwaorrr
don't lie, i've seen you. old grandpa's don't ride ponys, lol.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

I haven't seen this much GSR talk since.... last week.

xx

Yeah CSI at the time didn't want relationships on the show...

Bastards. You know, they should just give us CatNip this season, its not that hard. They already have the chemistry.. and the pics of the kiss are HOT!
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Maybe we'll get catnip in the preimere :devil:

Catherine and Stokes get hitched... Awe

I'm getting so tired of this whole "GSR IS THE REASON FOR THE RATINGS DROP".

I see it everywhere.

The Ratings were dropping in Season Six before we found out about the two.

People record their shows, they get lives and don't watch CSI: religously like some of us do.

GSR is not the reason for the slip. If anything, it has to do with the fact that people would rather watch a guy having sex with ten different woman, and not knowing a damn thing about forensics.

I know not everyone likes GSR, and that's totally fine. I'm not here to convert, to hit them with sticks, or to lower them in any way.

It really becomes redundant when people say GSR is cause of everything bad in CSI: when we see a total of maybe 60 seconds of them in their essence an episode.

Or maybe it's the fact that those who ship other couple's are getting pissed because Sara and Grissom work together more often (But, really; they have worked together A LOT.. Even before they became canon), and that Grissom won't work with Catherine, or Sofia, or whoever you ship.

/End of rant/
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Well, you can say GSR hasn't affected ratings all you like, but I know I stopped watching because of it, and I'd wager that out of millions of former viewers I'm not alone. But that is neither here nor there as there is a thread for the ratings on the CSI: LV board.

Also, I was willing to give CSI a chance at the beginning of the season, but I learned that Grissom and Sara were working an unusual amount of cases together. As in more than last season and most others besides season 5. That means that the GSR WAS affecting the show in scenes other than shippy scenes. The case pairings were not very varied at all, and to be quite frank they STILL really aren't.

So the argument that we only see a few seconds of GSR every few eps or so is very flawed IMO. Because we DO see the ramifications of it. Grissom divides the team, and he usually puts Sara with himself because they're dating. That affects the entire ep.
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

The only problem I have with the statement "GSR is causing the ratings drop" is this: where's the proof? People see that first there was GSR, then the ratings fell, ergo GSR is the cause of the fall in ratings. That's what's known as a post hoc fallacy - because "A" came before "B", you assume that "A" must have caused "B" without taking into consideration that there might be any number of factors "C to Z" that might have affected "B" as an outcome.

Seriously, anybody can tell me any kind of personal reason for hating GSR; I don't care if it's "Sara looks like my aunt Georgette and I hate my aunt Georgette and I don't want anybody who looks like my aunt Georgette to have any sort of happiness, EVER!!" You give me a reason even that deranged, and I'll just smile and nod and accept it. It's your life; you're free to hate or like GSR, just as you please. Just own the fact that not liking GSR is yours - it has to do with your feelings, your tastes, your perception of what a relationship is, your definition of "chemistry", your thoughts about where the show could go. It's perfectly legitimate; liking or disliking a ship is a purely subjective thing. Nobody is right or wrong here, you know?

But you can't claim that GSR is the cause of the ratings slide in Season 7, because unless you've got years of expertise and study of the ratings system and sociological factors that cause people to tune in or not tune in to their televisions and the psychological experience to determine what makes them choose one program over another, then you just don't know. So please, stop claiming that you "know" this for a fact. If you believe it's the cause, and state it that way, that's fine with me - that acknowledges that you know you might be wrong; you just don't think you are. Fair enough.

Oh, and in case anybody thinks I'm a logical smartypants, you can find the same website I had to look up here .
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

really enjoyed reading your post, even though I have a slightly different perspective.

I am a GSR shipper, but I agree that Sara's character could be fairly pathetic at times when it came to Grissom (seasons 2-4). Sara is my absolute favorite character, I think mostly because she seems very real to me. I rooted for her, and it was painful to watch her make a spectacle of herself at times when it came to Grissom. I kept wishing the writers would let her have a "Grissom isn't the sole source of my happiness" moment so that she could reclaim some of the independence she had in earlier seasons. (We do get to see this happen in season 5 when she is most often paired with Greg).

I think I allow a certain amount of leeway when it comes to Grissom, just because he is such an introverted and socially unaware guy. I don't think his intention was ever to hurt Sara, but protect himself. He is an idiot, and acted like a jerk, but its not like he was trying to toy with her - at least consciously.

My take on it is that even the strongest women can falter and let something (or someone) interefere with their happiness. I guess you could also make a case for her being "strong" (or at least strong-willed) in that she didn't give up on what she wanted - she really pushed the issue ;) (sometimes to a painful point).

I think she felt jilted by her friend (possible prior lover, if you ask CM). She came to Vegas because he asked her to. She uprooted her entire life to help him out. And then he gave her the cold shoulder, and here she is in Vegas with few friends, a job that occupies all of her time, and a former good friend/boss who doesn't want to be in a room with her. If this were me I'd be depressed.

I will admit that I wish the storyline portrayed Sara's "dark period" as something more than feeling slighted by Grissom. I think that may be the cause for Nesting Dolls, as the episode by itself sucked but served to give an alternate reason why Sara was so sad and angry all the time.

I also think the conversation in 'Snakes' between G and S showed that Sara was done having their non-relationship affect her so much. She basically laid everything on the table and said "This is how I feel, I guess you don't feel that same way, and that's OK. Bye." This scene really made me think that independent Sara was back and, even though she still had feelings for him, she wasn't going to allow it to affect her negatively. I think at this point she was now ready to be in a relationship with him, because she was putting herself first and getting over her depression over their non-relationship.

I like this pairing because we get to explore different aspects of Grissom and Sara's character. Think about it - everything we see about Grissom (for the most part) is about him knowing everything, understanding everything, and mastering everything. He is social dud. It is not an area that he exceeds in, and this relationship allows us to witness emotional growth on his part.

And, Sara deserves happiness. I think Grissom has been in love with her for some time, and now that he is allowing himself to show it, the relationship has become much more healthy. She is stronger now than in season one, because she learned that she can't allow herself to gauge her self worth based on the affections of another. She loves Grissom, but if he were to leave her tomorrow she could pull through it much better than the Sara in season 1. She values herself as a person much more now.

I guess my concern now is that TPTB don't allow Sara to take any of his bulls***, and show that she has learned that she shouldn't compromise herself if someone isn't going to meet her halfway. She forgave him for a lot of things - sometimes you can't keep forgiving if it repeatedly hurts you.

That's my two cents!
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

"Sara looks like my aunt Georgette and I hate my aunt Georgette and I don't want anybody who looks like my aunt Georgette to have any sort of happiness, EVER!!"
i love you Dee.

and i just wanted to say the EXACT same thing about the evidence. you say it's a fact? prove it.

i totally agree with you on all you wrote Dee.

ETA:
really enjoyed your post zupa. it's so interesting to listen to what some other GSR person thinks about the whole thing. btw, zupa in my language means soup, and that's what you remind me of - that i'm hungry. lol
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

Ha! When you said that I thought of Soup_fly, and then I thought "Ew a fly in my soup," and then I flashed on the Alanis Morisette song about "a black fly in your chardonnay."

So, in short, I am now less hungry!

Ha!

That's Polish, right? I confess, I googled it. :)
 
Re: The Great Ship Debate

lmao, i didn't make that correlation. it has to be the mix of languages.

and yup, it's Da Tongue. Polish that is, lol.
 
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