Supernatural #3 - No Chick Flick Moments

[BabaOReilly]

Sorry, I probably should have elaborated... I forget not everyone is an old broad like me. :lol: The Great Gazoo was this little green alien who used to *pop* in all the time on Fred and Barney on The Flintstones. He'd usually suddenly appear saying, "Hello dum dums." :lol: That would have been awesome for the TV show episode of Supernatural, but hey, they couldn't have everything! :lol:

Yes, I agree- I'd prefer if Eric Kripke's original plan was stuck to for the show. He hasn't failed us yet, and I expect the last half of this season to be pretty freakin' cool.

Besides, once you've fought the devil and the apocalypse, anything after that would be... well, underwhelming. I don't really see how they could carry the show on after that and keep it interesting. And as much as I love the show now, I'd hate to see it carry on just for the sake of carrying on- i.e. the network finally realized what a gem they have on their hands.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Okay, I watched Flinstones a little bit when I was a kid. I think I kind of remember the "hello dum dums" thing. But, I would think that Dean/Sam's Gazoo would be Bobby because he's always calling them "idjits". :lol:


Well, they could always come up with something. How many apocalypses did they stop on Buffy through its seven seasons? Way more than one. :lol: And they fought the big-bad (aka The Master) in Season One and defeated him. And yet the show still carried on for six more seasons after that. I think the Master made a couple of other appearances. Once in "The Wish" which was bizzaro world Sunnydale and then again when the First Evil took on his shape to get to someone I think. So, they could have Lucifer make other appearances in some way, shape or form. If he doesn't get any ideas for another season, then okay sure, end the series... I just ask that he let the brothers and Cas live... also Bobby and Impala/Metallicar ( :lol: ) if possible, but especially the brothers and Cas.

Besides, I kind of miss the whole every ep like a separate little mini horror movie thing of the first season. :lol: If they had another season, they could go back to that format, but it would be different because Cas could be around for some of it and help them out (providing God or another arch angel - gabe perhaps gives him back his full powers).

 

[Ginnna]

Oh, oh, I like A Whole New Level of Freak for the new thread title!

I'm still trying to have a little hope in Gabriel that he'll come through for them in the end. Other than Michael, I think he may be the only one who can actually kill Lucifer. Well, except for God himself.

It's true, there are a few possibilities that could get Dean off the hook for ganking Luci - Gabriel does it, Raphael does it (fat chance), God does it (I doubt it) - but more and more I keep thinking that the boys are gonna end up "playing their roles". And it turns out that the battle isn't as global and epic as predicted. *phew* But the boys die anyway. *tears* And then God resurrects them. *cheers* No demon deals this time around!

Nah, I'm not sure Kripke is gonna give us such a sparkly-clean happy ending. But hopefully it'll be something I can live with.

As for discontinuing the series at the end of S5, I'm still torn. I know Kripke has had this whole big storyline in his head since the beginning, seasons 1 through 5, and that's that... and I really do trust him to pull it off beautifully. But like GNRfan said, Buffy managed to avert multiple Apocalypses and keep on trucking with new and interesting storylines.

GNRfan, I just wanted to say that I love that you're a devoted Cas fan! I wander around other SPN boards and there's a fair amount of vitriol being spewed in reaction to everything Cas does, says, etc. It's very strange. I've been a Cas fan since... huh, well, since I saw him in the Season 5 premiere (the first episode I ever watched) and after everything, I consider him an indispensable part of the family. Glad you do too.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

My first reaction to Cas was A) he's hot! and B) can we trust him? because this is Supernatural you know? :lol: But as time went on, I realized he was the real deal and could be trusted and it was most (if not all) of the other angels who couldn't be trusted. I think there's still a smidgen of hope for Gabe cause he's not following Zach. But Zach, Raph, etc

Spoiler: upcoming ep

and if spoilers pan out to be true Anna too in untrustworthy

are too far gone. I'm undecided on Michael. So far he hasn't done anything to try to force Dean to be his vessel... only Zach has (well and Gabe, but for different reasons).

But honestly I love Cas. I can't choose between Cas and Dean though. :lol: So they're both my favorite. :lol:

Well, Buffy ended relatively happy. Though they did lose Anya. And sort of Spike (though he reappeared on the spin-off and was okay). But other than that they pretty much all came out on top. I'd be sad if Bobby died, but I can see the series ending that way with him sacrificing himself to save the boys/world. I'd be absolutely devestated if Dean or Cas died though.

Supernatural is my replacement show for Buffy. :lol: I was just sad when Buffy went off and then I found a little show called Supernatural and that filled the void (and in some ways I like it even better lol). There's nothing else like it that I currently watch (except sort of Eastwick, but it's more primetime soapy than supernatural... they rarely use their powers and when they do they either do not realize it or they use them for stupid reasons like giving Cat's soon to be ex-hubby a rash and besides which, it's not doing well in the ratings and I feel that it won't be back for a second season, so its pointless to get attached to it lol)... besides Cougartown and Jeff Dunham (well and Leverage and Burn Notice which are both kind of spy type of shows lol...) So, I'd be really really sad to see Supernatural end and me being stuck with only having mostly procedurals to watch. :lol:

There's nothing else supernatural/fantasy like on that I care to watch. You couldn't pay me all the money in the world to watch Vampire Diaries. :lol: Sanctuary is okay, but doesn't hold my interest that much. SGU is boring. Smallville has not interested me that much the last few seasons (though I watch ocassionally). :lol: And whose to say if it'll even return next season? :lol: So, I'm really sad about the thought of having to say goodbye to Supernatural. :lol: I need my Cas and Dean fix. :lol:

 

[BabaOReilly]

I did love Buffy (and Angel) a little more with each season, but it's not really the same, I don't think. I mean, this arc will have been going for 5 seasons by the time it's over, and Buffy and Angel seemed to do one year arcs... sort of a different set-up/style from the beginning. I don't know if Kripke would want to switch formats at this stage. I mean, he could do another multiple season arc, I guess, but somehow I really don't think that was ever his intention. I dunno- just seems like he'd be caving and sacrificing his vision if he stretched out the show.

Anyway, either way (with more seasons or not) he's assured us that this season is the end of this arc, and man oh man am I ever DYING to see how this is all going to play out. I think "epic" may be understating it.

 

[lyric]

Cas was already killed once (by an arch angel) yet he was ressurected (seemingly by God). This is why the other angels hate him so much. He's God's favorite "son" basically. He went against his orders (because he felt in his heart that they weren't coming from God) and yet he gets resurrected when he broke the rules (not following orders).

Or maybe he was ressurected by Michael. Which would make Castiel oweing Michael big time. And if Michael wants Dean, Castiel may play a part there.

At least I think Cas killed Uriel.

Anna was the one who killed Uriel.

On Azazel being an angel - I'm pretty sure that Lucifer is the only angel in Hell.

 

[Vildis]

Hey, I think I have missed something here. When did Anna kill Uriel? Which episode? I cannot remember it at all.

 

[lyric]

Hey, I think I have missed something here. When did Anna kill Uriel? Which episode? I cannot remember it at all.

"On The Head Of A Pin." Always made me think that she did it to silence him, and that she was working with the other side. No proof of that yet, but there's still time Or I may be wrong and she is one of the good guys (as good as the good guys are).

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Or maybe he was ressurected by Michael. Which would make Castiel oweing Michael big time. And if Michael wants Dean, Castiel may play a part there.

I don't think it was Michael. I don't think Michael can do anything from where he is and he can't come here without a vessel supposedly... at least from what I understand. And even if it were Michael, I don't think Cas would force Dean to be Mike's vessel. Cas didn't care for himself if he came back or not, he's obviously not afraid of dying. I think that he was brought back for one reason : to guide and protect Dean... until the apocalypse has passed Dean is not safe. So I don't see it as if Michael had been the one who resurrected Cas that Cas would owe him... cause he was resurrected to protect Dean. So if anyone would owe Michael it would be Dean, not Cas. Cas is a soldier and is more than willing to sacrifice his life for the cause and to protect those in his charge, so he wouldn't feel that he owed Mike anything for bringing him back and Mike would know this... at least I would think he would. :lol:

Anna was the one who killed Uriel.

I realized that last night lol. I got confused because I read so many fics where Cas was the one who killed Uriel. :lol:

There is supposed to be more than one fallen angel (there were those who followed Lucifer's line of thinking when he fell- I think he or someone on the show mentioned that). I can't think anything but Azazel being one of them because like I said, his power was greater than normal demons and he had yellow eyes instead of black (and I can't think of another explanation as to why that would be, especially the eyes). Perhaps he could have been a nephlim (sorry if the spelling is off on that) except that one of his parents was a fallen angel instead of a good one, which is why he was evil (for those who may not know a nephlim is half angel and half human).

On that movie Fallen about the angels and nephlims, Azazel was a fallen angel and was basically Lucifer's right hand... and coincidentally in that movie, Azazel was played by the guy who played the witch who made Dean old. :lol: I don't know for sure if Kripke is following the real angel lore (where Azazel was actually a fallen angel cast out of Heaven just as Lucifer was) or not, but I'm thinking he is because of the vast differences in powers between him and other demons. Even Lilith didn't seem (to me) to be as powerful as Azazel was. But I guess the only ones who know for sure are Kripke and the other writers and whatnot of the show. :lol:

As for Anna

Spoiler: upcoming ep

I'm not sure I'd call her good considering that in a future ep she's supposedly going to go back in time to kill John and Mary to stop Sam from being born so he can't be Lucifer vessel. I guess her intentions might be kind of good, but not really. There would always be another vessel. If she were really smart, she'd go back in time to stop Azazel from putting his blood in those kids and that way there would be no one who would be strong enough to sustain Lucifer as a vessel. But she's stupid if she thinks keeping Sam from being born will solve anything. He's not the only kid Azazel fed his blood to. :lol:

 

[lyric]

And even if it were Michael, I don't think Cas would force Dean to be Mike's vessel.

Force? No. But get him to the point where Dean will choose it himself? Why not? Without getting into the 'Castiel is Dean's Ruby' issue, Ruby didn't force Sam to do anything, and yet got him exactly where she wanted him.

If Castiel believes that Michael is doing what God wants, and that having Dean as Michael's vessel is part of God's plan, would Castiel go against the plan?

As for Anna

Spoiler: upcoming ep

I'm not sure I'd call her good considering that in a future ep she's supposedly going to go back in time to kill John and Mary to stop Sam from being born so he can't be Lucifer vessel. I guess her intentions might be kind of good, but not really. There would always be another vessel. If she were really smart, she'd go back in time to stop Azazel from putting his blood in those kids and that way there would be no one who would be strong enough to sustain Lucifer as a vessel. But she's stupid if she thinks keeping Sam from being born will solve anything. He's not the only kid Azazel fed his blood to. :lol:

Spoiler: reply to upcoming ep

According to what Gabriel said, it was always about Sam and Dean. It's their destiny. And while the question of whether one can change destiny is an open one, it makes sense for Anna to kill Mary and John. And 'Good' is usually relative on Supernatural

 

[Vildis]

You're right. Ruby never forced Sam to do anything. But she lied and did manipulate him, that's how she made Sam do what she wanted him to do. If Castiel would go against the plan? Well, he has already made it once. That's how he became a "fallen angel" who lost his powers, just because he wanted to help Dean.

 

[lyric]

You're right. Ruby never forced Sam to do anything. But she lied and did manipulate him, that's how she made Sam do what she wanted him to do.

The only thing that she didn't tell him, if I remember right, is that Lilith is the final seal. Other than that, what, Sam didn't know that drinking demons' blood is wrong? That demons lie? He didn't know he was choosing a demon over his own brother?

I don't think Ruby lied and/or manipulated Sam, as he simply heard what he wanted, and she didn't bother to correct him.

If Castiel would go against the plan? Well, he has already made it once. That's how he became a "fallen angel" who lost his powers, just because he wanted to help Dean.

Unless that was the plan. I know (almost?) everyone like Castiel, but what if he has his own agenda? What if not everything he says is true?

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Knowing what an arch angel possessing a human does to that human, I don't think that is what Cas wants for Dean and I don't think he wants Sam to have to see Dean like that either. If Cas had every assurance that Dean could be restored to normal after the battle then perhaps it would be a different story and perhaps he would steer Dean toward saying yes to Michael... but as it is now I don't think Cas is wanting Dean to do that. He cares too much about Dean, has become friends with him. Honestly Cas is the closest thing to a friend Dean has ever had (excluding family/other hunters).

But honestly, I think Anna was coming close to being more of Dean's Ruby than Cas. Only I think the writers nipped that relationship in the bud because of the fans' reaction to it (most of them didn't like it I think). I think originally Anna was supposed to be in more episodes than she was. I think maybe they had Anna and Dean sleep together just so they could use that line "you cut yourself a slice of Angelfood cake". :lol: But I think they were paralleling Ruby and Anna too, hence the line "an angel and a demon in the back seat" or whatever it was Dean said. :lol: And the fact that Sam was sleeping with demon Ruby and Dean was sleeping with angel Anna.

Though Anna said one thing right when she asked Cas if he thought that the father he loves would really ask him to have Dean do what he was doing to Alastair. The answer to that question is obviously no. It's not God who took away Cas' powers (God resurrected him most likely), its Zach/other arch angels who have their own agendas that is not the will of God. As for the question of if God did bring Cas back why didn't he return his full powers... well perhaps he wants Cas to experience more human emotions because he won't have to hear Angel radio and not know if the orders are God's will or other angels' own agendas. Maybe he wants Cas to follow his heart and do what he feels is right as opposed to what he's told which obviously isn't coming from God's command.

I don't think Cas has his own agenda (aside from making sure both Dean and Sam are safe which is a separate agenda from the other angels). In addition to paralleling Ruby/Anna, I think they are also paralleling Dean and Cas. Here are the points of that:

1) The good son who follows his father's orders without question (or the good soldier who follows orders no matter what). Sam once told Dean that he didn't know why Dean had such blind faith in their father. Dean didn't really start to question his father's orders until his father told him on his deathbed that he may have to kill his brother. Cas didn't start to question what he believed were his father's orders until the orders started to sound like "everyone here must die for the greater good- even though we could probably find another way" and then when Anna told him that the father he loves would never ask him to have Dean bring back all the stuff he did in Hell to torture anyone or anything.

2) The brother who has been betrayed by a brother. Dean has felt as if Sam has betrayed him (with the Ruby thing) and Cas felt betrayed by Uriel. The time that Sam beat up Dean (and went off with Ruby) is definitely parallel to Uriel and Castiel's fight. Uriel beating up Cas, Sam beating up Dean... both Uriel and Sam betraying their brother.

3) Both have felt as if they have failed (and are lost) in some way. Dean felt he failed when he got off the rack in Hell and started torturing souls. He thought he failed to stop Sam from killing Lilith. Cas felt he failed to see the truth and that his so-called orders were not coming from his father and that he was being manipulated by the other angels who have their own not so good agenda.

In some ways I think that Dean trusts Cas more than he does Sam and I think the Cas definitely trusts Dean more than he trusts most if not all of his siblings. Cas and Dean are very similiar and I think this is what the writers have tried to get across in these parallels.

 

[Vildis]

First of all, I have to say that I agree with GregNickyRyan here, as I think the same things.

And I don't really think that you can compare Ruby and Sam with Dean & Castiel. I mean, everyone is convinced that Castiel is a good guy, right? Bobby, Sam and Dean do. Ellen and Jo did agree before they died. But Sam, he had to hide the fact that he still had contact with Ruby, and what they were doing. As Sam knew what he did was wrong, but Dean (and partly Bobby) also tried to prevent that Sam and Ruby even talked to each other.

Sam knew that what he did was wrong, as I said. But he continued, because Ruby was able to manipulate him and get him to believe that what he did was good. He could drive out demons and get the possessed person to remain alive. Sam and Dean managed to get rid of the demons before Ruby came into their life, but people died when the demon disappeared from the body. Sam thought it would be good if these people were still alive, because they were innocent.

I see therefore no similarity between Ruby and Castiel. They seem to be totally different and have different interests. While one can not forget that Ruby had nothing to lose. She helped Lucifer, and believed in him. But if she would change, nothing would really happen to her. She was already in hell, literally. Castiel believes certainly in God, but refuses to obey. He is haunted by every angel and higher powers. It doesn't matter what he does, he will most likely become punished.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

I wouldn't say Cas refuses to obey God... I think he's just not sure where the orders are coming from at the moment. I think that says a lot. It says that he knows his father well enough to know that these orders couldn't possibly be his will. As much faith as Cas has in his father, I think he knows deep down that he would not be doubting his orders if they were truly from his father. And that is the kicker. Where is his father? Have the other angels managed to somehow lock him up like Skeletor did to the Sorceress in Masters of The Universe (the live action He-man movie from the 80s- sorry I couldn't think of any other thing to use as an analogy lol)? And if so, how did they manage to overpower the highest power there is? Or is God still out there and just testing his soldiers to see who makes the right decisions? And once the battle is over he'll reprimand/punish those who went against his will (aka Zach and his followers) and reward those who followed what they truly felt in their hearts were the right choices (aka Castiel) and those who came through to help even if it is at the last minute (I hope Gabriel will step in to help Cas and the Winchesters in the big battle). Yes, I'm still counting on Gabriel. Crossing my fingers and all.

You know, in some ways you could compare Gabe to Sam. In the beginning, Sam left the family job (hunting) and went away to school. Gabe left his family and went away. Maybe Cas/Gabe are like Dean/Sam when D/S were estranged from each other. :lol: