"Grave Danger" Discussion (Beware Spoilers)

[VerityKindle]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

I seem to recall hearing somewhere, and I don't recall now where, that the best place to shoot yourself if you really intend to commit suicide is straight up through the top of the mouth, to make sure the bullet goes straight into your brain. A shot through the temple still has to go through the skull, and might not be fatal.

I'm not sure where I would have learned such a morbid thing, though, so maybe I just imagined it...

 

[myfuturecsi]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

You know what is ironic?

In 'Stalker' Nigel Crane also put the gun to his chin after he told Nick, that he would have to scoop up all his brains after NIgel put a bullet through his head.

Remember the look on Nick's face when his father made the comment, during his hallucination about 'looking great at the funeral'. It was 'You care more about how good I look at a funeral, then the fact that I'm dead.' I think, in fact, Nick was trying to make a statement to his parents because either way, he would have been a mess had he gone through his plans and shot himself. His head would have been blown apart either way. The top would have been completely blown apart and like Nigel said, 'pieces of brain would have been everywhere'

I think that comment his dad made was probably the worst part of his hallucination. That hallucination was Nick's subconscience coming through. His intrepration of what people think of him.

The two messages I got out of his dream were that;

a. Doc Robbins and Dave think of him as a joke through the amount of fun they have chopping up his body and throwing his parts away. That Nick is as disposable as the other murder victims that come their way.


b. His parent's high-profile careers take higher ranking over him. Keep up a good appearance no matter what it takes and that includes making sure you look damn good at a funeral. It was how his dad said it that got to me, and Nick's post-death reaction to it. That 'WTF' look he had.

So in fact, I don't think Nick really cared about how he would look at a funeral, because he then he would have allowed himself to suffocate. I think he just wanted to end the misery the quickest way possible and in fact, not listen to his father at that moment. If he was gonnna die, let it be in spite of his parent's wishes.

 

[kasey1964]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

As to Nick aiming the gun at his chin instead of his temple, someone on the board said that this way his face would sustain minimal damage, which shows a) he cares about his appearance at the funeral, b) he cares about his mom who (he thinks) cares about his appearance at the funeral, or c) both of the above. I'm not sure where you aim the gun really makes a big difference on your appearance, but I think the theory has a lot of merit.

I had mentioned something about him being worried about his appearance at the funeral somewhere on the board. Because in his hallucination his Dad says “He’ll look great at the funeral. His mother will appreciate that.” I had thought that his concern was something that had prevented him from committing suicide even earlier, but I didn’t even think about that being his reason for wanting to shoot himself under his chin. Interesting.

An interesting idea, but I tend to agree with PonchoLives, in that there was just not enough room to aim it at his temple. He barely had enough room to reach into his pocket in that box, think of how difficult it would be to aim the gun. Minimal movement, minmal effort. Why make it a struggle to kill yourself after all that you've endured? The dream probably did play a part in his decision also, but any other option was limited by the space.

I assumed that he barely had the strength to raise the gun any further.

Kasey

 

[ford_prefect]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

You know what is ironic?

In 'Stalker' Nigel Crane also put the gun to his chin after he told Nick, that he would have to scoop up all his brains after NIgel put a bullet through his head.

Remember the look on Nick's face when his father made the comment, during his hallucination about 'looking great at the funeral'. It was 'You care more about how good I look at a funeral, then the fact that I'm dead.' I think, in fact, Nick was trying to make a statement to his parents because either way, he would have been a mess had he gone through his plans and shot himself. His head would have been blown apart either way. The top would have been completely blown apart and like Nigel said, 'pieces of brain would have been everywhere'

I think that comment his dad made was probably the worst part of his hallucination. That hallucination was Nick's subconscience coming through. His intrepration of what people think of him.

The two messages I got out of his dream were that;

a. Doc Robbins and Dave think of him as a joke through the amount of fun they have chopping up his body and throwing his parts away. That Nick is as disposable as the other murder victims that come their way.


b. His parent's high-profile careers take higher ranking over him. Keep up a good appearance no matter what it takes and that includes making sure you look damn good at a funeral. It was how his dad said it that got to me, and Nick's post-death reaction to it. That 'WTF' look he had.

So in fact, I don't think Nick really cared about how he would look at a funeral, because he then he would have allowed himself to suffocate. I think he just wanted to end the misery the quickest way possible and in fact, not listen to his father at that moment. If he was gonnna die, let it be in spite of his parent's wishes.

Actually, what I got from his Dad's comments in the hallucination about him looking great at the funeral and how his mother would appreciate that, was that Nick was worried about how his mother would be affected by his death. Just before his Dad made these comments, Robbins said that he had died of asphyxia, which was not disfiguring. I think that he didn't want to shoot himself, because he was worried about how gruesome that would be for his mother to see. Also, as you said, his hallucination came from his subconscience, so everyone in it was therefore actually himself, if that makes sense. He projected his own concerns about himself and the situation onto the other people in his life. So maybe part of the reason that he didn’t want to shoot himself was his own desire not to be disfigured.

I don't think he wanted to commit suicide to "make a statement" to his parents, I don't think he wanted to do it at all, he just couldn't take it any longer. Because in his hallucination he had died of suffocation, I think that he hadn’t really planned to kill himself at all, but he just didn’t have the will to put up with any more torture. I think if there had not been any ants he might not have put the gun to his head.

I agree that his hallucination showed that he felt people didn't take him seriously and that they in some way thought of him as a joke, but I don't think that he felt his parents were more worried about appearances than about his death. Like I said above, I think he was concerned about how his death was going to affect his parents and in his mind the comments about his appearance were just his way of visualizing that.

I hope that all made sense, I’m finding it difficult to summarize my thoughts.

 

[LabRat101]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

a. Doc Robbins and Dave think of him as a joke through the amount of fun they have chopping up his body and throwing his parts away. That Nick is as disposable as the other murder victims that come their way.


b. His parent's high-profile careers take higher ranking over him. Keep up a good appearance no matter what it takes and that includes making sure you look damn good at a funeral. It was how his dad said it that got to me, and Nick's post-death reaction to it. That 'WTF' look he had.

So in fact, I don't think Nick really cared about how he would look at a funeral, because he then he would have allowed himself to suffocate. I think he just wanted to end the misery the quickest way possible and in fact, not listen to his father at that moment. If he was gonnna die, let it be in spite of his parent's wishes.

Actually, what I got from his Dad's comments in the hallucination about him looking great at the funeral and how his mother would appreciate that, was that Nick was worried about how his mother would be affected by his death. Just before his Dad made these comments, Robbins said that he had died of asphyxia, which was not disfiguring. I think that he didn't want to shoot himself, because he was worried about how gruesome that would be for his mother to see. Also, as you said, his hallucination came from his subconscience, so everyone in it was therefore actually himself, if that makes sense. He projected his own concerns about himself and the situation onto the other people in his life. So maybe part of the reason that he didn’t want to shoot himself was his own desire not to be disfigured.

I don't think he wanted to commit suicide to "make a statement" to his parents, I don't think he wanted to do it at all, he just couldn't take it any longer. Because in his hallucination he had died of suffocation, I think that he hadn’t really planned to kill himself at all, but he just didn’t have the will to put up with any more torture. I think if there had not been any ants he might not have put the gun to his head.

I agree that his hallucination showed that he felt people didn't take him seriously and that they in some way thought of him as a joke, but I don't think that he felt his parents were more worried about appearances than about his death. Like I said above, I think he was concerned about how his death was going to affect his parents and in his mind the comments about his appearance were just his way of visualizing that.

I hope that all made sense, I’m finding it difficult to summarize my thoughts.

myfuturecsi, I'll have to disagree with your first point. I don't think Doc Robbins and David had anything to do with thier personal feelings towards Nick. Who else did he know that could perform an autopsy? They were familiar faces doing a familiar job, it's just the nature of the pain and the hallucination made them so sadistic and twisted. I actually have come to believe that Doc Robbins along with Brass and other smaller characters have a strong relationship with Nick, even officers at scenes are buddy buddy with him. And who could even picture David disliking someone? :lol:

Now the father thing in the hallucination can be interpreted in many ways. All the theories that I've read so far sound logical. I don't quite have an opinion on that yet, I've only seen the episode twice. (shame on me. :lol: )

 

[VerityKindle]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

I'm not convinced that Nick's relationship with his dad is as distant as people have been speculating. It seems to me that fathers and sons who are emotionally disconnected don't call each other "Cisco" and "Pancho." It's more like "You boy!" and "Sir."

 

[Guest]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

Hmmm. I'm kind of torn on this one. You both make excellent points, myfuturecsi and ford_prefect. I'm inclined to agree with both of you to some extent.

I believe that in Nick's family appearances are everything. It would kind of be hard for them not to be, coming from such a political and high-profile family. (A part of me thinks this is why Nick never told anyone about the babysitter, but that's a completely different discussion.) So yes, I think that that specific part of the hallucination was showing us that subconsciously Nick thinks his parents place too much impportance on keeping up appearances.

However, I don't think that he wanted to commit suicide to "make a statement" to his parents, either. I agree that he didn't want to do it at all. I just think at that point Nick had had enough and had lost hope. The fan stopped. As long as the fan was still going, Nick still had hope that the others would find him alive. But once that fan stopped - the fan that was keeping him alive - Nick realized he was probably going to die before they found him. And even though he had held out for so long against the fire ants, once that hope was gone Nick just didn't want to withstand one more minute of torture. So he was going to end it.

And ITA with both of you that his hallucination showed that he doesn't feel like he is taken seriously.

BTW, do you realize it's been over two months since the episode aired in the United States and Canada and we're still discussing it? That is good television.

 

[myfuturecsi]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

Isn't it cool how one scene just seems to bring out so many theories in people. If QT succeeded with anything with Grave Danger, it is that he stirred up debate about the character of Nick and what was he thinking about during his hallucination.

I totally live by the opinion that if someone can come up with a better theory then mine, go for it I might learn something from you.

Thanks for all the feedback on my comments. I've had to work up the courage to give more analytical details of the show.

Merci Beacoups

 

[LabRat101]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

What fun is there to CSI without discussions? And what better character to be the focus? We're all glad to hear your opinions myfuturecsi, and I can only speak for myself, but I know I won't bite your head off if I disagree. You never know though, someone here could be hungry...

Excellent point unknown_addict. It is good television. In fact, it's amazing television. The Emmy committee can shove thier expert opinions you know where... *grumble* *runs off to rewatch GD*

 

[ford_prefect]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

I'm not convinced that Nick's relationship with his dad is as distant as people have been speculating. It seems to me that fathers and sons who are emotionally disconnected don't call each other "Cisco" and "Pancho." It's more like "You boy!" and "Sir."

I completely agree. The very fact that they had nicknames for each other says a lot about their relationship. Just like when the other characters call Nick 'Nicky' (which I love, by the way), it is very affectionate, in my opinion. I do believe that he seeks his father's approval and maybe, just as with Grissom, he may feel that he hasn't lived up to his father's expectations. I don't think that he would care that much about what his father thinks if they didn't have a close relationship. So, maybe his Dad wasn't as emotionally available as Nick is, but I still believe that there was a close bond between them, and that his Dad is someone that Nick admires and looks up to.

I've had to work up the courage to give more analytical details of the show.

I just wanted to tell you that you shouldn't be afraid to express your views. I enjoy reading everyone's comments, and it's nice that people have different opinions, otherwise there would be no discussion, and it would get mighty boring around here. I don't mind if people disagree with me, because I often see things that I didn't notice before. Sometimes people even get me to change my mind.

BTW, do you realize it's been over two months since the episode aired in the United States and Canada and we're still discussing it? That is good television.

I love that people are still discussing this episode, because I can't get it out of my head.

 

[lookyhere_kayla]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

Fantastic comments by y'all. I agree. The sheer amount of discussion on this particular ep really does show what TV should be all about. As for GE's performance and the amount of talk his every move, action and breath has caused...he should be sitting at home feeling real pleased with himself...'Hey who needs an Emmy anyways,,,I got the fans!"

As for Nick's relationship with his parents..I agree about the whole nickname thing meaning that they were close...but maybe that closeness with his dad has slipped somewhat and that's why he latches on to Grissom so much. My dad and I used to have nicknames for each other when I was a kid but now we haven't spoken in years...and my Uncle has stepped into his role - My own personal Grissom!

Does anybody know whether Nick had any siblings 'cos I figured that he'd be the youngest if he did...the reason I ask is that he never mentioned any in his goodbyes,,,and if you're saying goodbye to your family, my guess is that you'd mention them...he only said goodbye to his parents before moving on to his 'other family - Grissom and the guys'. I also think that if he did have any brothers/sisters, surely at least one of them would have accompanied his parents to Vegas when he was kidnapped!?

 

[VerityKindle]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

According to the information on CBS's website, Nick is the youngest of seven, although as far as I know, the only sibling he's ever mentioned is a brother.

I don't know that any of them would have come out with his parents initially, because they basically just dropped everything and came immediately with what money they could scrape up. But I'm sure that some or all of them would have been there after the rescue and during his recuperation.

If QT had bothered to show any of that to us, which I think is one of the big flaws of the episode, because it leaves the parent scene to look like it was just thrown in to drop his nickname for Grissom.

 

[lemon_grass]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

I think Nick has five older sisters and one older brother, but I'm not sure where I know that from. Maybe we didn't get to hear his entire goodbye message? It seemed to me that he would have said individual goodbyes to his friends as well, and he didn't.

 

[PonchoLives]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

I'm not convinced that Nick's relationship with his dad is as distant as people have been speculating. It seems to me that fathers and sons who are emotionally disconnected don't call each other "Cisco" and "Pancho." It's more like "You boy!" and "Sir."

I completely agree. The very fact that they had nicknames for each other says a lot about their relationship. Just like when the other characters call Nick 'Nicky' (which I love, by the way), it is very affectionate, in my opinion. I do believe that he seeks his father's approval and maybe, just as with Grissom, he may feel that he hasn't lived up to his father's expectations. I don't think that he would care that much about what his father thinks if they didn't have a close relationship. So, maybe his Dad wasn't as emotionally available as Nick is, but I still believe that there was a close bond between them, and that his Dad is someone that Nick admires and looks up to.

I pretty much agree with this. Nick obviously has some connection with his father - the nicknames imply that. Of course, we don't know if the nicknames are still commonly used or if the emotional impact of the situation prompted the use of the nicknames on the part of both men. If it's the former, it appears that they have a genuine affection for each other and that's conveyed by the use of the nickname. If it's the latter, I think we can assume that at one time, Nick and his father had a close relationship and drifted apart for some reason (maybe it's the whole CSI thing and moving to Vegas), but using the nickname again could imply that both father and son still care about each other and perhaps wish they could go back to the time where they were close.

I think that Nick has the desire to please his father and his mother - he wants to make them proud. Given that most people tend to view Nick as a bit more of a Momma's Boy, his mother was probably very free in her praise of her son and Nick lapped it up and was probably very affectionate with her because he responds well to praise/love/affection. Given the somewhat stoic figure his father appears to be, I think Nick probably felt that he let his father down in some way because his father's not one to bestow a lot of praise on him (or anyone else probably). His father is probably not as comfortable with his emotions as Nick is and because of this, Nick (and us the audience) might at one time assumed that there's a distance in their relationship due to his father's disappointment/disapproval of him. However, I'm not totally sure that this is true at the time of Grave Danger.

There is a parallel with Nick's relationship with his father and his relationship with Grissom. Both are authority/father figures, somewhat emotionally unavailable or distant, and Nick desires their approval. However, I don't think we should automatically assume the relationships are exactly the same which is what, I think, a lot of people do. Nick seems to have come to the conclusion that Grissom is just Grissom and he's not one to give praise. Therefore, Nick stopped openly seeking validation from Grissom and learned to find that in himself and Grissom offered him the highest praise he could by recommending him for the promotion in S4. Even so, I would not define Nick and Grissom's relationship as "close" and I don't think Nick would either. Why else would he feel the need to apologize to Grissom for disappointing him in his final goodbye? Though he may have appeared to not need Grissom's approval, in his darkest moment - in his heart of hearts - Nick still feels that he's let Grissom down, hasn't measured up, and hasn't gained the respect he so desparately wanted.

Note that he did not say anything similar to his father or mother. He told them that he loved them and that they raised him right. This was a moment for him to say whatever was on his heart. There were no grand confessions, no "Sorry I disappointed you". So, one can assume that Nick felt at peace with his relationship with his father (and mother). Otherwise, he would have said something to try and make amends somehow.

So, all of that to say, that while there may be some similarities between Grissom and Judge Stokes, I think Nick and his father probably were close and loved each other.

 

[VerityKindle]

Re: Post - "Grave Danger" Episode Discussion/Review ***Spoi

I think Nick has five older sisters and one older brother, but I'm not sure where I know that from. Maybe we didn't get to hear his entire goodbye message? It seemed to me that he would have said individual goodbyes to his friends as well, and he didn't.

Keep in mind that he was interrupted in the middle of his recording by the fire ants. He probably had more to say, but just didn't get the chance.