Grade 'Justified'

Discussion in 'CSI: New York' started by Top41, Nov 19, 2010.

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How would you grade Justified?

  1. A+

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. A

    11 vote(s)
    42.3%
  3. A-

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  4. B+

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  5. B

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  6. B-

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  7. C+

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  8. C

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  1. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    Your views are not so flawed me thinks.:)

    At least the instrument of choice was a Stradivarius.... there pretty nice:lol:

    Your right about that and I think that is what I love best about him...well that and his baby blues:devil:

    On a more serious note I respect your moral and humane point of view. It is indeed a sad day that such a topic can spark sooo much emotion not so much the emotion which I see as quite healthy but the subject matter....even though this is indeed a fictional show the storyline is much to close too real life. I'm sure everyone has a story to tell. But facts and circumstances help determine the outcome and reasoning of things, and not always in a favorable conclusion.
     
  2. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    That comment was specifically directed towards the argument, though if you'll notice, I posted "Guys, please be nice" right after that comment.

    Speaking of trolling though, it is amusing that you only pop up these days to stir things up. Don't think it's going unnoticed. You'd be wise to rethink that.

    Back on topic...

    As for Flack's attitude, he's never exactly struck me as cocky per se... that's always been more Danny in my book. But I do think he's pretty confident, and he doesn't suffer fools gladly. I personally like his sarcasm and wit, but I can see how it could grate. To each their own... I know we all have our favorites!
     
  3. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    i agree, i think it's great that something as lowbrow (so to speak) as a weekly crime show can spark a debate like this!

    there was only one more thing i wanted to say right now, about this:

    i don't think it's a flawed view of humanity at all. my own views are about as cynical and misanthropic as you can get, i think on the whole the human race is, to paraphrase thomas hobbes, nasty and brutish, and the sooner we're wiped out the better it'll be for everyone. i mostly think that people who are hopeful of niceness within humans or who try to see the best in everyone are generally barking up the wrong tree and are doomed to be severely disappointed.

    but i suspect this view is influenced by a lifetime of seeing abusers taking advantage of people not just on a personal level but at governmental and international level - we are by nature a greedy and selfish race (ha, i'm so darwinian!) and most of us (especially governments) will stop at nothing to get what we want. so when i see a story in which someone who's been abused fights back, even if that involves murder, i have a little flicker of, well, something less miserable. i think it's important that people fight back, and it makes me incredibly angry when i see legal systems and governments that apparently favour abusers over abused (but of course they do because they're just as bad).

    so in this particular case i have to side with the killer - partly because the way i see it killing is never as bad as systematic abuse. i think a lot of that is because i don't have this view that life itself is an inherently good thing. i don't think i'd ever kill anyone else (i've sure as hell considered it!) but that's less because i think life is "a good thing that must not be violated" but that my views on civil and human rights dictate that i don't have that kind of power over someone else's life. i don't see life as something to be valued particularly, i've tried ending mine several times, but it's wrong for anyone to have that kind of sway over another's life - and that is why abuse, parrticularly systematic, is so wrong. imho it's infinitely more wrong than killing someone.
     
  4. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    I noticed how and where your comment was directed. And I also noticed the direct and indirect remarks stated by both individuals.
    Didnt know I was "trolling":confused: as I have been actively corresponding on other threads. Just did not have much to say on this one of late but I am not sure why I am being threatened for that.
    Sorry if I read things wrong but from personal experience you seem to chose the comment most distastful to you to use as your example
    If I didnt know any better it would seem to me COUNTRY233 is right with regards to stating an unpopular opinion. You obviously do not care for me or my opinion which is fine, so for this I am threatened? There was a time when I thought you were pretty fair handed and being in your postion put personal dislike aside, should I be wrong to assume something has changed in that regard? And if my comments seem to "stir things up" then my sense of humor and /or intellect should be my shame? Need I sharpen my talons then, or is this not an open forum for discussion where as you so generously assured Country233 she was "entitled to her views". I have no quarrel with you but for some reason you do with me.

    I guess some see it as cocky or some see it as sarcasm. I look at it as one in the same. I guess I can see where that personality trait could rub people the wrong way too but it just seems to fit Flack. Danny is cocky your right and a bit reckless an alluring combination I think. Flack is sarcastic and self assured plus he is so cute when he follows up with his smile:)
    And at the time he seemed like a trapped animal and his only release was to rid himself and his siblings of the danger. A human instinct that is not only one of survival but sad when you consider the one who gave him that life abused it so devastatingly. What gets me is if the uncle "loved" them so much, he did not notice over the years there was a problem there? The scars on his back were exposed but the ones on the inside would have been difficult to hide especially from someone who was an intimate part of there life.

    But life can bring pleasure to so many as yours has even here to this forum more than you can know. Please know I mean this in all sincerity.
     
  5. Top41

    Top41 Administrator Administrator Moderator Premium Member

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    There is a difference between posting to stir the pot and posting an opposing viewpoint. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else in the forum. Coming in here to stir the pot is not appreciated, and aside from posting in the Stella thread, that seems to be what you do lately. There's a different between sense of humor and trying to cause trouble, as you well know.

    Now, let's stay on topic--further discussion can be taken to PM.

    I do think the difference in severity between continued abuse and murder is an interesting one. It's a very serious issue, and I think when it happens to a child (or anyone, really), it changes and shapes who they become. That at fourteen Jay didn't think there was any other way to save his siblings likely speaks (along with the scars) to the severity and duration of the abuse. I doubt if the events had just happened, and a fourteen-year-old killed a parent in the way under those same circumstances, that the kid would go to jail or even juvie. Maybe a psychiatric hospital, but I doubt prison.
     
  6. Country233

    Country233 Police Officer

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    Thank you. I wasn't trying to drum up a big deal about the episode.

    Today at work, I had the same debate with my friend. He was kinda with you all and said sometime you just have to defend yourself. And he even knew a family where a son was forced to kill his father because the father was off his medication and about to shoot the son's mother. It gave another angle but I still have the lingering feeling that killing anyone, good or bad, is just wrong.

    My friend even mention it is weird because I generally dispise people, but yet am a pacifist. It is just the way I think.
     
  7. Country233

    Country233 Police Officer

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    But again, I was not being a troll or trying to stir the pot with my "bloodthirsty" comment. It was just a figure of speech. Quite frankly, it seems like things have gotten a little intense. Hopefully, Friday's episode will not cause such a differing of opinions.

    My own frame of reference in my life, makes me very cynical of people in general and I question their motives, so any case where it isn't clear if the victim really was a ad person gets to me.

    I will say that I don't have a background dealing with abuse, while one of my friends had a pretty bad upbringing and I can see how it has damaged her. I can see how some abuse victims would take the approach, "that no one is going to help so it must be done."

    I just hope we can move on from this topic and be kind on the board. I wasn't trying to create enemies, because I like posting here.
     
  8. vegaslights

    vegaslights Brute

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    Just as a reminder, Country233, you can edit your post as long as it's within the 24 hour time period of the original posting. No need for double posts. :)
     
  9. ruby&theheadmen

    ruby&theheadmen Lab Technician

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    I'm glad that we're having this discussion and I certainly know well what it's like to be in the minority opinion on issues in Talk- anybody that knows how I feel about certain characters related to NY and Miami will know this.


    However, I find it deeply disturbing to note in these posts that there seems to be a trend to rationalize as well as obfuscate the reason for certain behaviors that years ago would have been seen as reprehensible. Many here will argue that much in the past 60 years or so needed to be changed, whether it was attitudes, beliefs, laws or actions. Nevertheless, I submit that all in the past was not that bad and that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. This is especially true in the realm on what is considered lawful and lawless. The opinions I read in Talk over this issue left me deeply disturbed; I was disturbed to the point that I brought up this topic with a clergyman about 2 days ago who does ministry to the homeless, runaways etc; and he pointed out the correctness of my conviction by putting it in simple terms- I beg to share this with you.

    When an abused person chooses to commit cold blooded, pre-meditated and I mean sneak up behind the abuser OR attacking the abuser when one is in no life threatening danger at the moment or even danger at the moment (when an attack in these cases against an actively attacking abuser would be justified as self defense) then one become an ABUSER THEMSELVES and an ultimate abuser at that- a life taking one! By doing this you have let your tormentor win by making you into them- is that truly the message that shows like the CSI franchise wants to put out there? I certainly hope not!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  10. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    i know you do, and i'm sure it does, for many people. just not for me. even now my life is reasonably ok, if i get hit by a bus later today it'll be no odds on me because i'm quite happy to die whenever it happens. that's not to say i'm actively suicidal (at least not right now) but y'know, i don't really care either way.


    i don't think that's weird at all. i'm a nihilist as far as my own life is concerned, i don't care too much about it, i'll do all kinds of damage to myself voluntarily and not care but that doesn't extend to other people. as much as i have a cynical outlook and generally think the human race is evil, i'm also a socialist which means i want fairness for everyone and despise that in capitalist societies some people are born with all kinds of disadvantages which continue to be exploited throughout their lifetime so they'll never get anywhere in life. to me that's just another form of abuse, although at governmental level. basically i go by js mill who said that no one should be stopped in freedom of expression unless they're harming someone else. well abusers are harming someone else and until governments and legal systems recognise that and limit abusers' freedoms, abused people have no option but to strike back if things get to that point. but governments and legal systems will never recognise this because they do it themselves on a wider scale, they screw people from the cradle to the grave (and not just in their own country) and reap all the rewards. anyone caught trying to fight back is imprisoned, oppressed or deemed mentally unstable. sometimes i think marx was right and that that *only* way to achieve genuine parity is by violent overthrow of the system. sadly in this day and age that is more difficult, partly because governments are so paranoid they react to anything with swift and harsh penalties, and partly due to apathy.

    wow, that went a little off the direct topic, sorry, i guess my point is just that until abuse is curtailed on international/governmental level, we have very little chance of it being curtailed on an individual level. also that it's possible to be a cynic and nihilist but still value the importance of treating others fairly.

    mine too. i don't see cocky and snarky as the same thing at all, or sarcasm either. to me danny is far more cocky than flack.

    it is an interesting point, the "which is worse?" aspect. for me, death is an easy thing, it's not something that scares me, in fact i positively welcome it, so for me years or decades of abuse (or indeed one abuse, such as a rape, sexual assault etc) are *infinitely* worse, more traumatic, more horrible etc than death. it's one reason i disagree with the death penalty: surely dying is easier than years of guilt and/or prison rape? if you want to really punish someone, go for the latter.

    that said, i'm not sure i'd ever seriously advocate using prison rape as punishment! i think prison should be pretty harsh because although i'm a human rights fan i think people who do these things to an extent give up those rights. however.... the sad fact is that many many abusers were abused themselves, to the point where that kind of behaviour is normalised and they don't know any other way of life - it's a reminder that this kind of abuse has seriously long term consequences and can impact on future generations (because many abused kids go on to abuse their own kids). this is why it has to be recognised and stopped as early as possible.

    as for psych hospitals, i tend to see them as punishment just as much as jail (what can i say? i'm a foucault fangirl!) and i think it'd be wrong to punish someone, especially a child, for reacting against extreme provocation. by all means provide counselling, therapy etc to make sure they know what they did was wrong and won't do it again, and indeed to try to alleviate the trauma of systematic abuse, but don't punish them. they've been punished enough already.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  11. PerfectAnomaly

    PerfectAnomaly Resident Smart Ass

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    It's great that you found someone to validate your opinion, but that doesn't make it the *right* one and everyone else *wrong*. It's just an opinion, like everyone else's.

    As for the abused becoming the abuser, I think that's putting a grey issue into black and white terms. The person who kills their abuser is trying to put an end to the cycle of abuse when there is no other way to do so. They are not continuing the cycle of abuse on another person for years to come. There's a huge difference, IMO. Also, as others have stated, often people who kill their abusers have been failed by the system in the past and feel that ending the abusers life is the only way to save themselves and in the case of the boy in this episode, save his siblings as well. I don't comprehend comparing him to a cold blodded murderer who will most likely kill again if given the chance and treated as such. The situation he was in and the life he lived after the killing couldn't be farther from that comparison.
     
  12. talkingtocactus

    talkingtocactus Coroner

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    ^ well said, on both points :)
     
  13. Lori K.

    Lori K. Pathologist

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    "Stirring the pot"... "stimulating conversation" call it what you will.

    If I am going to be publicly reprimanded then at least I deserve the respect to correct the fallacy of saying all I do is post in the Stella thread as I have posted in a few others as well. Whom did I cause trouble too? And as far as my sense of humor is concerned it is good of you to tell me what my mind is thinking... preciate it.
    Sure after my trip to the woodshed.

    And now the son has to live with that the rest of his life. It is usually the innocents that are forced to take action under normal circumstances they would never want to do. I guess if the boy in the episode had a choice he would much rather of had a stable safe and happy childhood. Now even with the threat removed the memories still remain.
     
  14. GregNickRyanFan

    GregNickRyanFan Holographic Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, exactly. I don't consider the boy a cold blooded murderer when he's got in his mindset that "I need to kill her before she hurts my siblings (or me) further". To me, cold blooded murder is when someone kills another for a frivolous reason or without any reason at all. This was not the case here. If anything, this was justifiable homicide. It'd be a different story if he'd gone out and killed some random, innocent person just because he was abused, but he didn't.

    Perhaps the better way to handle it would have been for him to borrow some handcuffs from Uncle Ted, grab the mother from behind, handcuff her and drag her to the police station saying "this woman did this to me" and pull off his shirt, showing the wounds. But even if he'd done that, there was no guarantee that his mother would be put in jail for good where she could no longer ever harm him and his siblings again.

    It's one of those no win situations, honestly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010
  15. vegaslights

    vegaslights Brute

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    Lori K, you've been told to take this matter to PM if you felt the need to. You continue to argue and fight with both members and moderators in this forum, and have been told several times to stop stirring the pot.

    Consider this an official warning, for your continued arguing and trolling here in NY.
     

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