Grade 'Justified'

[talkingtocactus]

Yes, exactly. I don't consider the boy a cold blooded murderer when he's got in his mindset that "I need to kill her before she kills/hurts my siblings (or me) further". To me, cold blooded murder is when someone kills another for a frivolous reason or without any reason at all. This was not the case here. If anything, this was justifiable homicide.

agreed - to me this kind of murder is no worse than murder in self defence. of course in an ideal world it wouldn't have to happen, and the technicalities are slightly different (given that the threat is systematic rather than immediate) but it's a very similar thing i think.

 

[Country233]

I'm glad that we're having this discussion and I certainly know well what it's like to be in the minority opinion on issues in Talk- anybody that knows how I feel about certain characters related to NY and Miami will know this.

However, I find it deeply disturbing to note in these posts that there seems to be a trend to rationalize as well as obfuscate the reason for certain behaviors that years ago would have been seen as reprehensible. Many here will argue that much in the past 60 years or so needed to be changed, whether it was attitudes, beliefs, laws or actions. Nevertheless, I submit that all in the past was not that bad and that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. This is especially true in the realm on what is considered lawful and lawless. The opinions I read in Talk over this issue left me deeply disturbed; I was disturbed to the point that I brought up this topic with a clergyman about 2 days ago who does ministry to the homeless, runaways etc; and he pointed out the correctness of my conviction by putting it in simple terms- I beg to share this with you.

When an abused person chooses to commit cold blooded, pre-meditated and I mean sneak up behind the abuser OR attacking the abuser when one is in no life threatening danger at the moment or even danger at the moment (when an attack in these cases against an actively attacking abuser would be justified as self defense) then one become an ABUSER THEMSELVES and an ultimate abuser at that- a life taking one! By doing this you have let your tormentor win by making you into them- is that truly the message that shows like the CSI franchise wants to put out there? I certainly hope not!

Yes, I tend to take on the clergyman's opinion. If you let yourself become a killer or an abuser then you let them take a little bit more of your soul. If the boy had killed his mother while she was beating him that would've made it more understandable.

My friend even mention it is weird because I generally dispise people, but yet am a pacifist. It is just the way I think.

...wow, that went a little off the direct topic, sorry, i guess my point is just that until abuse is curtailed on international/governmental level, we have very little chance of it being curtailed on an individual level. also that it's possible to be a cynic and nihilist but still value the importance of treating others fairly.

so in this particular case i have to side with the killer - partly because the way i see it killing is never as bad as systematic abuse. i think a lot of that is because i don't have this view that life itself is an inherently good thing. i don't think i'd ever kill anyone else (i've sure as hell considered it!) but that's less because i think life is "a good thing that must not be violated" but that my views on civil and human rights dictate that i don't have that kind of power over someone else's life. i don't see life as something to be valued particularly, i've tried ending mine several times, but it's wrong for anyone to have that kind of sway over another's life - and that is why abuse, parrticularly systematic, is so wrong. imho it's infinitely more wrong than killing someone.

Everyday I come back to this topic and see another level of comments. It is very interesting debating this. I suppose everyone has slightly different opinions. I enjoy reading the comments but I have less to add as time goes by.

 

[Ninja0980]

As someone who majored in criminal justice with a minor in sociology, I have sadly had the chance to view cases of children who have been neglected and abused. Not all of them survived. Even though in many of the cases they HAD told someone about what was going on.
Children (and adults) who are severly abused as Jay was aren't thinking about how they're letting the abuser win, or that others will view it as cold blooded and becoming an abuser themselves. They are thinking of one thing and one thing only, survival.
Obviously, a full pass shouldn't be given and I wouldn't have felt a couple of years in prison would have been too out of line but the idea that an abuse victim should get the book thrown at them for killing their abuser,esepcially when the system and adults failed to protect them, no.
And I will never view the "mother" in this episode with anything more than contempt. You reap what you sow sometimes.

 

[GregNickRyanFan]

Children (and adults) who are severly abused as Jay was aren't thinking about how they're letting the abuser win, or that others will view it as cold blooded and becoming an abuser themselves. They are thinking of one thing and one thing only, survival.
Obviously, a full pass shouldn't be given and I wouldn't have felt a couple of years in prison would have been too out of line but the idea that an abuse victim should get the book thrown at them for killing their abuser,esepcially when the system and adults failed to protect them, no.
And I will never view the "mother" in this episode with anything more than contempt. You reap what you sow sometimes.

I agree. I think it also has to be taken into consideration the fact that children (even teenagers) haven't yet fully developed the decision-making/logic part of their brains (and this has been stated by many child psychologists and others in that type of field)... so his brain couldn't go to the a more logical action. As you said, his only instinct was survival and protecting his siblings. Granted, he could have waited until she was actually attacking him or his siblings, but he probably was too afraid to take the chance that she would see it coming and hurt him or his siblings worse.

And I agree with you about the mother as well. I can't bring myself to view her as a victim. I can find sympathy for the child who was put in this situation, this broken state of mind by his own mother's abuse towards him and his siblings (a situation where he obviously felt that doing what he did was the only way out for himself and his siblings)... but I can't have any sympathy for the abusive monster of a mother no matter how hard I may try.

 

[talkingtocactus]

^ i agree too

 

[pdegan2814]

Obviously, a full pass shouldn't be given and I wouldn't have felt a couple of years in prison would have been too out of line but the idea that an abuse victim should get the book thrown at them for killing their abuser,esepcially when the system and adults failed to protect them, no.

The problem with trying to give the guy a couple of years is if he was a juvenile when he killed his mom, he couldn't be given an adult sentence. And at this point in his life, what do you do with him? Lock him in juvie as a grownup? There was actually an old Law & Order episode that tried to deal with this same dilemma. Of course, there's probably been a Law & Order episode about every quirk of the justice system.

 

[Ninja0980]

Obviously, a full pass shouldn't be given and I wouldn't have felt a couple of years in prison would have been too out of line but the idea that an abuse victim should get the book thrown at them for killing their abuser,esepcially when the system and adults failed to protect them, no.

The problem with trying to give the guy a couple of years is if he was a juvenile when he killed his mom, he couldn't be given an adult sentence. And at this point in his life, what do you do with him? Lock him in juvie as a grownup? There was actually an old Law & Order episode that tried to deal with this same dilemma. Of course, there's probably been a Law & Order episode about every quirk of the justice system.

I remember that episode....it varies by state but in many cases, you can be tried as an adult even if you were a juvenile at the time of the crime.

 

[mrsjrewing]

I loved his episode and the 3 epsiode arc with Carver. He and Mac were interesting to watch. Two strong willed men working for what they believed.