Episode #617 - "To Kill A Predator" ***CONTAINS SPOILERS***

I have a lot of thoughts going through my mind and really no way to comprehend it until we can all see the next episode. I am really starting to think that after watching that last scene, Horatio got pissed not from the fact that the guy was a pedophile...well actually he was pissed to find out he was, but what I think got him to that point of beating him up was the fact that the guy was busted and he kept lying to him. and again like I said he also had a job of protecting underage girls from pedophiles.

I think Horatio took that as something personal, yes in the past episodes he ran into people just like this but remember, he was by himself on this one. he was all alone and if he would have been alone in the other ones I am pretty sure the same thing would have happened. It still doesn't mean that he didn't scare me a bit because it did. The first time I never seen a CSI: Miami episode that actually gave me an adrenaline rush. I mean I was like WHOAAAAA!

okay, I am starting to calm down now from that last scene finally. lol
 
dogbert14 wrote:
Let me get my point across one last time - the man was a pedophile. That automatically gives anybody the right to beat him up. Not kill him, but dish out a beating. Oh well. Different opinions.
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I totally understand where you're coming from, believe me. We all know these guys are creeps and I'm sure many of us have different opinions of what should be done to them.

But here's the thing - in terms of Horatio's character, it bothers me. If this were John Kelly, it probably wouldn't. Here's my point — Let's go back to Stuart Otis, who actually KILLED SMALL CHILDREN after molesting them. I just can't understand why Horatio beats up this guy who we don't even know if he did anything or not, yet he doesn't touch a guy who raped and killed more than a dozen (if I remember correctly) children under the age of 9.

It's inconsistent - I would've expected H to beat up Stuart Otis, and was surprised when he didn't (BOTH TIMES). I thought that was done to show who Horatio is - someone who lets justice take its course. Now, he just comes off as a hypocrit, telling people they can't dispense justice, and then not practicing what he preaches. It's getting annoying b/c NO ONE is calling H out on it. While I think most everyone would like to see these pedaphiles get the snot kicked out of them, there is still protocol to follow, and you can't just break the rules when it suits you w/out consequences. (see my post above).

Believe me, a part of me was glad to see Horatio going bad-ass on that guy, but the situation was ALL WRONG and inconsistent. Why kick this guy's ass, but not Stuart Otis's?
 
miamirocks, were there people around Cain when they caught Stuart Otis? Because if there were then that explains why.
 
Hey everyone! I'm glad this discussion is going on..it's really good.

Quote from StellaMac: He had a bad day so it okay for him to lash out on this guy.

I agree with you StellaMac. Just because Horatio (or any person for that matter) is having a bad day does not make it okay for him to lash out in a physical manner. I'm a criminal pyshcology major and we've been studying anger and such in my classes, and it's precisely this type of thinking that has landed many people in jail. There are always better ways to fix things than with violence, no matter what the other person has done.

I think the big problem I had with that last scene was that it kinda undid everything that H stands for, in my mind at least. Think back to the time that H had Stuart Otis, another pedophile, hanging over the edge of a building and the only thing keeping Otis aloft was the fact that H was holding onto him...in fact H refused to let him go. I think that shows a big change in H's character. I think a lot of it might have to do with the fact that he's now a father (or at least realizes he is one now), and things like this affect him a little more deeply. Horatio to me used to stand for justice and I think he even said once that it wasn't the CSI's place to dish out the punishment or the justice, that that responsibility belonged with the court system. Horatio used to be that all-American hero that was worth looking up to, but in my eyes, now he's no better than the men he's putting behind bars if he can't control his anger.

I'm not saying I applaud child molesters or pedophiles or anything because in fact I loathe them and everything they stand for, but I don't think Horatio was correct in his actions. I believe that the pedophiles can be properly dealt with by the court system and that he will get that kind of punishment in prison anyway. It wasn't Horatio's place.

All in all, I wasn't too fond of the episode though...I thought the plot was way too easily figured out and there were too many red herrings and such. I also had hoped to find out more about Calleigh and how she's dealing with the whole situation of her being back..but I doubt that will ever see the light of day... :(

All in all though guys, great discussion! A lot of vaild points, and I find it completely fascinating
 
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miamirocks, were there people around Cain when they caught Stuart Otis? Because if there were then that explains why.
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I can think of at least two times when no one was around. The first was in an interrogation room, where there was no cop and the blinds were drawn (supposedly for privacy :rolleyes:) - perfect opportunity for H to pounce, but he didn't.

The second was when Stuart hung over the side of the building. Horatio could've let him go, but he didnt', he freakin' saved the guy - the pedaphile. And he didn't have to - there were no witnesses. He CHOSE to save the bastard who not only molested small kids, but KILLED THEM. (The cops came AFTER H pulled Otis over to the side - plenty of time for H to get in a subtle kick or punch - but nothing). I was kind of surprised by that. If this happened now, H would probably step on the guy's fingers to make sure he fell to his death. :rolleyes:

I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I'm sure there were. So yea, there were opportunities for H to "deal out some Miami justice," but he didn't. That wasn't who he was, but now apparently H has become above the law.

Police brutality is a serious issue, no matter who the criminal is, and it can cast a bad light on the whole department. While I understand that H was pissed at the guy for lying to him and using his position to lure innocent girls, how many times has H come across that in the past? He should've been protecting his team, despite his feelings. What if this results in the whole lab being looked at again? What if his actions put his team in jeopardy? (Not that I think it will b/c TPTB are not exactly the kings of continuity :rolleyes: )

I mean, Delko's getting his wages garnished by that crazy girl so that the lab doesn't get looked at, and yet H is going around blowing people away in cold blood and beating up suspects that already have been apprehended. H doesn't seem to think about the consequences b/c there never are any for him, which is stupid. Maybe if there was follow-up to this, and some character development, I'd be more understanding of it. But I know it's just gonna get dropped. To me, his actions just encourage the vigilante mindset that Horatio himself has been fighting against (even verbally), and it paints H as a hypocrit.
 
Hey like I said I loved it!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: A+

I do think Horatio has way to much on his plate and that's what is finally coming through. That is... I believe what the crack in his sunglasses is all about this whole season... Anyone else seeing this??? I hope.:p

If you paid attention and I know you all did...;) You all heard him say, "You picked the wrong week to do this." Now I do believe the whole week means, "Ambush, All In, and this episode..." So... he is just getting over the hell he has been through from being extradited to Brazil, Almost getting killed. (Mind you, if H didn't kill the Mala Noche, they would have done him in. And that poor guy on the floor going for his machete, would have come back if H didn't send him to Mala Noche Heaven!):lol::lol::lol: Then Calleigh was kidnapped and almost killed and lets not forget about Julia and Kyle.:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Okay, I don't know how Horatio is still standing at this point. I think anyone else would have pulled their GUN and blown their HEAD OFF by now!!!:eek:

I have to Give credit to Horatio! :thumbsup: This bad guy got what he deserved tonight! It felt right to me, and I can understand other point of views too.;)
So we all agree to disagree at times. That's what its all about and it is fun!

I for one love Horatio :drool: Super Horatio, and especially, the emotional human Horatio.:eek: Now we just need him in real life instead of a friggin TV show!:lol:


There... I have said my peace,:lol:

HCrazy :cool:
 
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I had to delete my post right here becuase of reading Hcrazy.

you put out a very good point there. He could be crackin/snapping, if you put all the horrible things that have happened recently, it would make perfect sense on why this type of thing is happening. first his Mentor gets blown up, then his girlfriend leaves him because of him not telling her about the little girl or something like that, marisol gets shot, he gets the stabbing from the Mala noche gang coming back to haunt him alittle bit, then Cal gets nabbed, etc etc. Obviously there is more but definitely. Hcrazy, you put some very good points in why he could be snapping. hopefully this isn't his last season though, how much longer is his contract for?

Hcrazy, you know, I had to watch that last scene again. This is why I believed he is taking his own stand/actions. look at his face when he says "we will see how long that lasts" thats after he says "you are resisting arrest". of course it could be the acting but maybe just maybe that is the way they wanted it. He just looks so fricken pissed, I know there were other episodes where he gets mad, but he definitely looks way different in the last scene. It doesn't seem like Horatio Cain that we all know.
 
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Hey Hcrazy :) Somehow I knew you'd be psyched about that last scene, and that's cool ;) - H is always smokin' when he gets angry :drool: And I totally hear you with the breaking point thing (I wrote a fanfic awhile ago, based on "Man Down," but before it aired, where H was overwhelmed by everything and contemplated suicide - it was interesting to write b/c while it seemed "out of character" for H, it really doesn't nowadays. Like you said, he's got way too much on his plate. Nice observations. :) )

Personally, I'd like to see Horatio called out for his actions, like he was in "After the Fall" (and he didn't even do anything in that ep!) I'll leave everyone w/these two thoughts in regard to my opinion on the matter.

Here's a quote from David Caruso himself about "police brutality" and a Season 6 scene that was cut - I thought this was very telling:

"For instance, initially in the episode "Inside Out," there was a version where I go in and get physical with the character of Joe LeBrock right away ... But if I was to get physical and give way to the emotions we are describing here, in today's world, not only would that not be acceptable, I would be in a holding cell, under arrest, handcuffed, sitting with an attorney. And in lock up, how would I help my son from there? The [best] thing I can do is keep as composed as possible so I can stay outside and function. It is not easy, and that's a good thing." - David Caruso, CSI:Miami Magazine (Feb. 2008)

Now that was from the man himself. I think this says it all, but just to bring up another point, let's not forget about Season 3's "After the Fall." Remember that nice scene w/Cal and H, where Cal convinces Horatio to let her look at the evidence against him when that guy on the roof claims H dislocated his shoulder? Calleigh is TOTALLY sure that Horatio didn't do anything wrong b/c she looks up to him and knows him after working w/him for so long. She KNOWS he wouldn't have hurt the suspect, at least not on purpose. That's why she pursues the matter and proves him innocent. Also, she point-blank asks Horatio: "How are you doin"? She checks up on him to make sure he's OK, which no one has really done since - big mistake on TPTB's part.

Now what would happen if this scenario played out now? Would Calleigh be so quick to run to Horatio's defense? Just three years ago, she believed Horatio was incapable of such an action of police brutality. But now, can she say for certain what H is capable of? Is that a good thing?

And if H is gonna lose it, I would've much rather seen it happen over Kyle or Calleigh's kidnapping than this. With the kidnappings, there's that sense of urgency - every minute counts - so he's gotta get the info to get to them. They could die if he doesn't. It would make more sense, anyway, even if it was wrong. Either do it or don't, but don't be inconsistent.

Horatio's actions in "All In" and this episode cheapened H's character, IMHO, and further broke the bond of trust that he had forged w/the team, especially Calleigh (since she is his second in command and is the one left holding the bag when/if he gets in trouble, besides the fact that she defended him in "After the Fall").
 
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I totally agree that Horatio has had a bad week-I really think the one guy who's daughter was killed who said to H "Are you a parent?" I wonder all these years how many times has someone asked him that and he replied no but now the answer is YES. And worse, after All In-he knows that Ron Saris is crazy/dangerous and he can't protect Kyle now after all he did to save his son and show love while Kyle was in lock up and now the courts give his son to a mom who won't be able to keep him safe. Yeah, I think worry and fear are finally making H crack up a little and that's why he's NOT the same man from seasons past-before he let the court system have the criminals but now he couldn't let this guy go without walking on his face alittle-trust me the perv will get far worse in jail (remember what H reminded Joe Lebrock about his pedophile kid will suffer in jail and Joe by being a dad of a pedophile?)so getting smacked around is wrong but I"m glad they didn't actually show H beat on him. Just left it to imagination but wonder if the 14yr old girl will have to lie for H since that I don't believe Horatio would allow.
 
I remember somewhere in the beginning of CSI:Miami when Horatio specifically said to some lady that use to have his job (I can't remember her name) he said "you can have this job back whenever you want it back". So maybe now he just doesn't care anymore if he looses his job or not. That definitely could be looking into it way to deeply but I just remembered that right now.

Oh lets not forget that in the real world a cop really doesn't loose his job for beating up people like this. They get suspended for a bit but end up coming back doing desk work for awhile with therapy or whatever and once they go through that and are in ship shape they can go back to there jobs. Not all the time but it depends on whats it's for really. I know a few cops and I know one that got suspended for acts not like what Horatio did which is a TV show but close. of course I am not saying all cops don't get fired, so please don't get me wrong on that.

Also someone mentioned him being in the lab more. In one episode which again I can't remember but maybe someone can clarify it, he mentioned he wanted to work more in the lab or something like that.
 
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:eek: DOESN'T HORATIO LEARN??? He should've learned from his recent extradition to Brazil that things can come back to bite you. At the end of this episode when they faded to black and Jerry Bruckheimer's name came up Horatio hadn't done anything. I hope it stayed that way. Another thing Horatio ought to have learned by now is how human skin, tissue as they call it on the show, can end up in a person's mouth. If Horatio hits that guy and that guy's teeth cut Horatio's hand, those teeth while they're cutting Horatio's hand could take a little piece of Horatio's skin with them and then the guy would have some of Horatio's DNA between his teeth. Plus if Horatio isn't careful he could leave other evidence, besides a little piece of skin in the guy's mouth, that proves he assaulted the guy without provocation. And if that pervert did file a police brutality complaint against Horatio, that girl could back up one part of the guy's story: Horatio sent her outside before he did it. I hope IF they do pick up from that last scene in next week's episode, I hope Frank or a uniform cop shows up there before Horatio can do anything.
 
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All I'm going to say is that over here in the UK a Paedatrician was beaten to death because the stupid, illiterate ignorants who murdered him thought that a Paedatrician was the same as a Paedophile, so in that respect, in fact in any respect, no-one has the right to take the law into their own hands, and most especially those whose job is to 'enforce' the law.

Beating someone up is not lawful, no matter who it is you're beating up on. What it is is assault, and if you break bones and/or split their lip and/or break their skin so that the person is bleeding then it is GBH (Grievious Bodily Harm), and if there is intent to kill and you do kill them then it is Murder.

Horatio is a 'Law Enforcement Officer', and a Law Enforcement Officer is someone who has been trained to 'enforce' the law. He is not someone who is the law, he is someone who is there to show us every day joes what the law represents... And as far as I can see, all Horatio is doing is giving people like the Mala Noche every reason to feel that what they do is right and just, because I would be grateful if someone could tell me just what the difference is between what Horatio has been doing over the last couple of episodes, to what the Mala Noche do.

*sigh*
 
Della said:
All I'm going to say is that over here in the UK a Paedatrician was beaten to death because the stupid, illiterate ignorants who murdered him thought that a Paedatrician was the same as a Paedophile, so in that respect, in fact in any respect, no-one has the right to take the law into their own hands, and most especially those whose job is to 'enforce' the law.

Beating someone up is not lawful, no matter who it is you're beating up on. What it is is assault, and if you break bones and/or split their lip and/or break their skin so that the person is bleeding then it is GBH (Grievious Bodily Harm), and if there is intent to kill and you do kill them then it is Murder.

Horatio is a 'Law Enforcement Officer', and a Law Enforcement Officer is someone who has been trained to 'enforce' the law. He is not someone who is the law, he is someone who is there to show us every day joes what the law represents... And as far as I can see, all Horatio is doing is giving people like the Mala Noche every reason to feel that what they do is right and just, because I would be grateful if someone could tell me just what the difference is between what Horatio has been doing over the last couple of episodes, to what the Mala Noche do.

*sigh*
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Well said, Della. Was there any one of us that was happy with that outcome? All I can say is 'shocked and disappointed'. Can't expand on what you said any better. Especially liked your line about H being law enforcement, not the law.
 
Sorry, I just was not impressed with this epi at all...whatever happened to letting the "evidence" provide the justice... H seems to be putting himself more & more above the law...

And I was wondering about Calleigh as well... she just seemed quieter & subdued... I wondered if that was part of her "reaction" to the kidnapping..
 
flgal said:
Sorry, I just was not impressed with this epi at all...whatever happened to letting the "evidence" provide the justice... H seems to be putting himself more & more above the law...
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I completely agree, this ep wasn't the greatest. I think the interactions between the characters was more interesting than the case. Also I predicted that 'Tiffany' was going to have some major part in all of this, and low and behold there's Lou with alcohol for a young girl.

Evidence is supposed to help with the case but it seems that H wants to get justice taken care of right away. Like he has something better to do once the case is solved; leaving the entire ep feel rushed.

Though it was nice to see more Ryan, so that is one of the few pluses for me. Overall I give this ep a 6. There could have been so much more done with this and for some reason there wasn't.
 
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